Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / The Evolutionary Importance of drinking Booze with Professor Edward Slingerland

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The Evolutionary Importance of drinking Booze with Professor Edward Slingerland · The Smart Cookies podcast

• 35 00:01:08,637 --> 00:01:14,707 [zaza]: edward slingerland is distinguished university scholar and professor of philosophy at the university of 36 00:01:14,807 --> 00:01:21,038 [zaza]: british columbia where he also hold appointments in the department of psychology and asian studies 37 00:01:21,999 --> 00:01:28,490 [zaza]: dr slinger land is an expert on early chinese thought comparative religion and cognitive science 38 00:01:28,650 --> 00:01:35,181 [zaza]: of religion big data approaches to cultural analysis cognitive linguistics and digital 39 00:01:34,794 --> 00:01:35,016 [edward_slingerland]: oh 40 00:01:35,382 --> 00:01:38,327 [zaza]: humanities who besides numerous 41 00:01:38,335 --> 00:01:38,519 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 42 00:01:38,447 --> 00:01:44,116 [zaza]: academic books translate ions and edited volumes professor slingerland is the author of two best 43 00:01:44,176 --> 00:01:51,268 [zaza]: selling trade books trying not to try and drunk how we sipped danced and stumbled 44 00:01:51,428 --> 00:01:55,896 [zaza]: our way to see lization which is what we're going to be talking about today 45 00:01:56,998 --> 00:01:59,862 [zaza]: i got to say beautiful cover by the way really really 46 00:01:59,686 --> 00:01:59,947 [edward_slingerland]: i love 47 00:01:59,902 --> 00:02:00,103 [zaza]: pretty 48 00:02:00,028 --> 00:02:00,088 [edward_slingerland]: it 49 00:02:00,143 --> 00:02:02,266 [zaza]: to look at professor 50 00:02:02,313 --> 00:02:02,334 [edward_slingerland]: m 51 00:02:02,327 --> 00:02:03,909 [zaza]: slingerland welcome to europe trash 52 00:02:05,304 --> 00:02:05,848 [edward_slingerland]: thanks for having me 53 00:02:07,123 --> 00:02:13,034 [zaza]: first question if i have a little bit of grandpa's old cough medicine before every 54 00:02:13,194 --> 00:02:16,037 [zaza]: interview will it make my podcast better 55 00:02:18,544 --> 00:02:19,946 [edward_slingerland]: likely it depends 56 00:02:19,980 --> 00:02:20,200 [zaza]: yeah 57 00:02:20,066 --> 00:02:25,315 [edward_slingerland]: on how strong the golf medicine is yeah so what are the functions of alcohol 58 00:02:25,475 --> 00:02:28,520 [edward_slingerland]: is to relax people 59 00:02:28,701 --> 00:02:28,781 [zaza]: it 60 00:02:29,863 --> 00:02:31,465 [edward_slingerland]: release three hibitions a bit 61 00:02:31,590 --> 00:02:31,810 [zaza]: yeah 62 00:02:31,726 --> 00:02:37,417 [edward_slingerland]: down regulate their cogative control and that tends to make social interactions go better so 63 00:02:37,497 --> 00:02:42,646 [edward_slingerland]: yes whatever you are pouring yourself will probably help unfortunately it's nine thirty in the 64 00:02:42,686 --> 00:02:44,549 [edward_slingerland]: morning here so i'm just gonna stick 65 00:02:44,550 --> 00:02:44,570 [zaza]: m 66 00:02:44,610 --> 00:02:46,332 [edward_slingerland]: to tea but 67 00:02:46,250 --> 00:02:46,290 [zaza]: i 68 00:02:46,392 --> 00:02:46,553 [edward_slingerland]: yes 69 00:02:46,450 --> 00:02:49,332 [zaza]: take i take my guests really seriously so nara 70 00:02:49,284 --> 00:02:50,544 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 71 00:02:49,553 --> 00:02:51,635 [zaza]: professor i'm so sorry 72 00:02:51,510 --> 00:02:51,854 [edward_slingerland]: o cares 73 00:02:51,715 --> 00:02:53,436 [zaza]: that we can't do this live and that 74 00:02:53,364 --> 00:02:53,525 [edward_slingerland]: oh 75 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:55,998 [zaza]: it's nine thirty in the morning but 76 00:02:56,046 --> 00:02:56,207 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 77 00:02:56,078 --> 00:02:56,219 [zaza]: yeah 78 00:02:59,382 --> 00:03:01,866 [zaza]: right just a little sip all right let's 79 00:03:01,845 --> 00:03:02,046 [edward_slingerland]: get 80 00:03:01,926 --> 00:03:06,594 [zaza]: start big we know booze is not good for our health we know we can 81 00:03:06,634 --> 00:03:12,804 [zaza]: potentially make absolute idiots of ourselves when we know we all have a killer hang 82 00:03:12,884 --> 00:03:17,553 [zaza]: over the next day if we go overboard and yet despite all of this we 83 00:03:17,633 --> 00:03:20,738 [zaza]: still pick up the glass why do we love to get slashed 84 00:03:23,034 --> 00:03:27,983 [edward_slingerland]: well the standard story that you'll read in a psycho one text book the standard 85 00:03:28,023 --> 00:03:31,208 [edward_slingerland]: scientific explanation is that our taste 86 00:03:31,020 --> 00:03:31,242 [zaza]: yeah 87 00:03:31,288 --> 00:03:38,968 [edward_slingerland]: for intoxication is a evolutionary mistake so the there's different types of evolutionary mistakes the 88 00:03:39,008 --> 00:03:39,629 [edward_slingerland]: most common 89 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:40,240 [zaza]: oh 90 00:03:40,089 --> 00:03:45,697 [edward_slingerland]: i think the standard theory is what i call a high jack theory so ethanall 91 00:03:45,857 --> 00:03:50,445 [edward_slingerland]: just happens to trigger a reward network in our brains and we figured 92 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:50,580 [zaza]: yah 93 00:03:50,505 --> 00:03:55,734 [edward_slingerland]: that out and so we're just like rats pushing a lever to get more okay 94 00:03:56,054 --> 00:03:57,216 [edward_slingerland]: or whatever they do in these 95 00:03:57,421 --> 00:03:57,441 [zaza]: a 96 00:03:57,516 --> 00:04:02,345 [edward_slingerland]: addiction studies we just we keep trigering it even though we know consciously it's not 97 00:04:02,385 --> 00:04:04,168 [edward_slingerland]: good for us we know it has bad effects 98 00:04:05,670 --> 00:04:05,916 [zaza]: oh 99 00:04:05,750 --> 00:04:06,411 [edward_slingerland]: it's purely 100 00:04:06,287 --> 00:04:06,390 [zaza]: yeah 101 00:04:08,074 --> 00:04:14,264 [edward_slingerland]: a mistake that this makes us feel good there's also various mismatched theories out there 102 00:04:14,465 --> 00:04:14,585 [edward_slingerland]: so 103 00:04:15,690 --> 00:04:15,952 [zaza]: oh 104 00:04:16,168 --> 00:04:20,755 [edward_slingerland]: there are some theories that a taste for alcohol may have been adapt if in 105 00:04:20,795 --> 00:04:27,927 [edward_slingerland]: the evolutionary past but it's not now so so the analogy here would be like 106 00:04:27,987 --> 00:04:32,618 [edward_slingerland]: our taste for junk food so we we have this taste for sugar and fat 107 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:33,421 [zaza]: yeah 108 00:04:34,154 --> 00:04:37,800 [edward_slingerland]: whenever we get access to sugar and fat we have a tendency to indulge in 109 00:04:37,860 --> 00:04:42,688 [edward_slingerland]: it that was actually very adaptive for almost all of our evolutionary history because sugar 110 00:04:42,748 --> 00:04:46,615 [edward_slingerland]: and fat were hard to get and you should indulge when you can it only 111 00:04:46,735 --> 00:04:47,216 [edward_slingerland]: becomes 112 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:47,361 [zaza]: we 113 00:04:47,716 --> 00:04:52,104 [edward_slingerland]: harmful and problematic relatively recently in modern industrial 114 00:04:51,930 --> 00:04:52,530 [zaza]: oh 115 00:04:52,184 --> 00:04:56,170 [edward_slingerland]: societies where we have too much sugar and fat at our disposal and it leads 116 00:04:56,210 --> 00:05:02,160 [edward_slingerland]: to diabetes and apicityokall problems um so so there's vices that we have like our 117 00:05:02,221 --> 00:05:03,262 [edward_slingerland]: taste for junk food 118 00:05:03,540 --> 00:05:03,560 [zaza]: m 119 00:05:04,384 --> 00:05:10,715 [edward_slingerland]: which are definitely mismatched mistakes they were adapted and very recently they became adaptive 120 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:11,240 [zaza]: oh 121 00:05:12,157 --> 00:05:17,526 [edward_slingerland]: there are definitely examples of evolutionary high jacks so i started the book with the 122 00:05:17,586 --> 00:05:21,312 [edward_slingerland]: most dramatic and obvious hi jack which is masturbation 123 00:05:20,946 --> 00:05:21,029 [zaza]: ah 124 00:05:21,873 --> 00:05:21,993 [edward_slingerland]: were 125 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:22,220 [zaza]: yah 126 00:05:22,114 --> 00:05:23,937 [edward_slingerland]: any type of non reproductive sex 127 00:05:24,229 --> 00:05:24,270 [zaza]: ah 128 00:05:24,858 --> 00:05:27,923 [edward_slingerland]: where we're getting this reward or the orgasm 129 00:05:28,361 --> 00:05:28,523 [zaza]: yeah 130 00:05:28,484 --> 00:05:33,172 [edward_slingerland]: the best the biggest chart that evolution has and it gives it to us in 131 00:05:33,232 --> 00:05:37,767 [edward_slingerland]: return for doing the thing it most wants us to do which is pass on 132 00:05:37,868 --> 00:05:38,249 [edward_slingerland]: copies 133 00:05:38,070 --> 00:05:39,180 [zaza]: okay 134 00:05:38,309 --> 00:05:43,891 [edward_slingerland]: of our gens so the adaptive target is reproductive sex but humans 135 00:05:43,869 --> 00:05:43,890 [zaza]: m 136 00:05:43,951 --> 00:05:48,398 [edward_slingerland]: and other species have figured out they can get the reward in lots of wildly 137 00:05:48,538 --> 00:05:51,043 [edward_slingerland]: non reproductive ways and 138 00:05:50,910 --> 00:05:51,150 [zaza]: oh 139 00:05:51,423 --> 00:05:55,955 [edward_slingerland]: so so you've got these evolutionary high jacks you have evolutionary mistakes in the case 140 00:05:56,076 --> 00:06:03,009 [edward_slingerland]: of high jacks it's relatively costless so evolution 141 00:06:02,670 --> 00:06:02,852 [zaza]: oh 142 00:06:03,049 --> 00:06:08,017 [edward_slingerland]: doesn't care about perfect evolution is just concerned with something that works well enough and 143 00:06:08,057 --> 00:06:08,298 [edward_slingerland]: so the 144 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:08,482 [zaza]: well 145 00:06:08,358 --> 00:06:14,917 [edward_slingerland]: system where we get this reward to get this orgasm um m seems to involve 146 00:06:15,318 --> 00:06:19,269 [edward_slingerland]: and lead to enough reproduction that we're here to talk about it it's a sloppy 147 00:06:19,050 --> 00:06:19,351 [zaza]: okay so 148 00:06:19,369 --> 00:06:19,690 [edward_slingerland]: system 149 00:06:19,511 --> 00:06:19,912 [zaza]: even though 150 00:06:19,810 --> 00:06:20,412 [edward_slingerland]: but it seems to 151 00:06:20,373 --> 00:06:20,453 [zaza]: we 152 00:06:20,452 --> 00:06:20,612 [edward_slingerland]: work 153 00:06:20,554 --> 00:06:25,745 [zaza]: love to masturbate evolution doesn't care because we're still making babies is that is that 154 00:06:25,754 --> 00:06:25,914 [edward_slingerland]: we're 155 00:06:25,785 --> 00:06:25,985 [zaza]: how it 156 00:06:25,974 --> 00:06:26,154 [edward_slingerland]: still 157 00:06:26,025 --> 00:06:26,226 [zaza]: works 158 00:06:26,254 --> 00:06:29,740 [edward_slingerland]: doing that often enough yeah it's a costless behavior doesn't 159 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:30,321 [zaza]: often 160 00:06:30,261 --> 00:06:30,421 [edward_slingerland]: take 161 00:06:30,421 --> 00:06:30,622 [zaza]: enough 162 00:06:30,461 --> 00:06:30,942 [edward_slingerland]: very long 163 00:06:30,863 --> 00:06:31,144 [zaza]: all right 164 00:06:31,423 --> 00:06:35,710 [edward_slingerland]: not physiologically damaging despite what you may have learned in school what doesn't make you 165 00:06:35,770 --> 00:06:35,870 [edward_slingerland]: go 166 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:36,100 [zaza]: yeah 167 00:06:36,171 --> 00:06:37,633 [edward_slingerland]: blind or give you hairy bo 168 00:06:38,003 --> 00:06:38,563 [zaza]: yeah i went 169 00:06:38,619 --> 00:06:38,820 [edward_slingerland]: um 170 00:06:38,944 --> 00:06:41,668 [zaza]: i did go to bible school so it was a different story there 171 00:06:41,744 --> 00:06:45,190 [edward_slingerland]: okay yeah yeah they told you something different junk 172 00:06:45,164 --> 00:06:45,326 [zaza]: uh 173 00:06:45,290 --> 00:06:51,641 [edward_slingerland]: food is actually really dangerous and harmful but it's a relatively a very recent problem 174 00:06:52,202 --> 00:06:56,268 [edward_slingerland]: and it's still a geograph ally limited so there today there are still plenty of 175 00:06:56,309 --> 00:06:59,955 [edward_slingerland]: places in the world where it's hard to get enough sugar and fat where calories 176 00:07:00,015 --> 00:07:05,764 [edward_slingerland]: are a problem so evolution hasn't had time to worry about that problem in the 177 00:07:05,824 --> 00:07:10,933 [edward_slingerland]: case of alcohol what i'm arguing and drunk is that neither of these types of 178 00:07:11,013 --> 00:07:17,163 [edward_slingerland]: mistakes stories can be right and that's because the taste unlike junk food the taste 179 00:07:17,203 --> 00:07:18,646 [edward_slingerland]: for alcohol has been 180 00:07:18,570 --> 00:07:18,813 [zaza]: oh 181 00:07:19,307 --> 00:07:24,556 [edward_slingerland]: with us for ever as far as we know as the species it's ubiquitous so 182 00:07:25,177 --> 00:07:28,783 [edward_slingerland]: you see you see it everywhere and you see it throughout history so it's an 183 00:07:28,903 --> 00:07:30,686 [edward_slingerland]: ancient blum um 184 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:31,180 [zaza]: oh 185 00:07:31,647 --> 00:07:35,995 [edward_slingerland]: it's also incredibly costly so it's up there with junk food in terms of it's 186 00:07:36,035 --> 00:07:39,280 [edward_slingerland]: probably worse than junk food in terms of the damage it does to our body 187 00:07:39,500 --> 00:07:45,371 [edward_slingerland]: so it harms our liver it increases our cancer risk leads to hangovers when indulged 188 00:07:45,471 --> 00:07:48,410 [edward_slingerland]: in as you as you know so given the 189 00:07:48,780 --> 00:07:51,570 [zaza]: yeah 190 00:07:49,013 --> 00:07:55,940 [edward_slingerland]: high cost of alcohol and the fact that we've been producing and consuming it everywhere 191 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,765 [edward_slingerland]: in the world for as long as we know something else has to be 192 00:07:59,831 --> 00:07:59,891 [zaza]: he 193 00:08:00,026 --> 00:08:04,633 [edward_slingerland]: going on because evolution would fix this problem if it really were just a mistake 194 00:08:04,994 --> 00:08:07,358 [edward_slingerland]: and so the central theme of drunk is that 195 00:08:07,972 --> 00:08:08,073 [zaza]: ah 196 00:08:08,500 --> 00:08:13,353 [edward_slingerland]: it's not an evolutionary mistake that we have the taste into against these intoxicants are 197 00:08:13,373 --> 00:08:17,904 [edward_slingerland]: actually serving certain functions for us oh 198 00:08:17,751 --> 00:08:23,521 [zaza]: in school they told us that the development of human civilization went roughly something like 199 00:08:23,921 --> 00:08:30,252 [zaza]: this from being hentrogatherers for a minute we suddenly invent agriculture believe in mesopotamia the 200 00:08:30,352 --> 00:08:35,360 [zaza]: cradle of civilization then we start to build cities figure out writing and a couple 201 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,043 [zaza]: of other really important 202 00:08:36,924 --> 00:08:37,164 [edward_slingerland]: oh 203 00:08:37,083 --> 00:08:41,250 [zaza]: things and only then does alcohol appear on the stage at least 204 00:08:41,173 --> 00:08:41,213 [edward_slingerland]: a 205 00:08:41,831 --> 00:08:45,177 [zaza]: in the text books you know that we read and even then as a mere 206 00:08:45,297 --> 00:08:45,798 [zaza]: footnote 207 00:08:45,414 --> 00:08:45,760 [edward_slingerland]: oh 208 00:08:46,098 --> 00:08:51,066 [zaza]: something kind of interesting but also kind of unimportant i believe we mentioned back then 209 00:08:51,147 --> 00:08:51,768 [zaza]: how ancient 210 00:08:52,014 --> 00:08:52,276 [edward_slingerland]: oh 211 00:08:52,068 --> 00:08:58,038 [zaza]: egyptians drank beer however in the book you write that we were drinking before we 212 00:08:58,158 --> 00:08:59,320 [zaza]: invented agriculture 213 00:08:59,424 --> 00:09:02,274 [edward_slingerland]: oh 214 00:08:59,701 --> 00:09:02,926 [zaza]: not only that but we actually invented agriculture so we 215 00:09:02,874 --> 00:09:03,015 [edward_slingerland]: oh 216 00:09:03,026 --> 00:09:05,291 [zaza]: could have constant access to booze 217 00:09:04,914 --> 00:09:05,136 [edward_slingerland]: oh 218 00:09:06,093 --> 00:09:06,233 [zaza]: can 219 00:09:06,174 --> 00:09:07,374 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 220 00:09:06,294 --> 00:09:11,268 [zaza]: you make a case for the so called bear before bread hypothesis 221 00:09:13,214 --> 00:09:14,456 [edward_slingerland]: so i was also taught 222 00:09:14,444 --> 00:09:14,464 [zaza]: i 223 00:09:14,496 --> 00:09:20,346 [edward_slingerland]: that standard story so you know it's very similar it's paralleled to the evolutionary mistake 224 00:09:20,426 --> 00:09:25,174 [edward_slingerland]: story about our taste for alcohol so our taste for alcohol is it would be 225 00:09:25,214 --> 00:09:27,238 [edward_slingerland]: an evolutionary mistake and then 226 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:27,930 [zaza]: yeah 227 00:09:27,278 --> 00:09:28,420 [edward_slingerland]: we're also told that 228 00:09:28,310 --> 00:09:28,451 [zaza]: oh 229 00:09:29,461 --> 00:09:36,012 [edward_slingerland]: our production of alcohol is kind of historical mistake so we invented agriculture we had 230 00:09:36,072 --> 00:09:36,633 [edward_slingerland]: some left over 231 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:37,920 [zaza]: yeah 232 00:09:36,934 --> 00:09:41,324 [edward_slingerland]: and we left it sitting around with some water and fermented and we kind of 233 00:09:41,364 --> 00:09:46,988 [edward_slingerland]: figured out as a by product how to make alcohol the problem with this story 234 00:09:47,189 --> 00:09:50,481 [edward_slingerland]: and this surprised me so i didn't know about this actually before i started writing 235 00:09:50,501 --> 00:09:52,826 [edward_slingerland]: the book but there's a movement 236 00:09:52,981 --> 00:09:53,143 [zaza]: yeah 237 00:09:53,627 --> 00:10:00,120 [edward_slingerland]: in archeology that has been arguing that if you this standard story can explain the 238 00:10:00,220 --> 00:10:07,192 [edward_slingerland]: patterns we see and we look to pre agricultural societies and so one example that 239 00:10:07,212 --> 00:10:11,239 [edward_slingerland]: we talk about in the book is go back la tep the site in modern 240 00:10:11,299 --> 00:10:11,820 [edward_slingerland]: day turkey 241 00:10:12,171 --> 00:10:12,776 [zaza]: turkey right 242 00:10:12,761 --> 00:10:13,102 [edward_slingerland]: where 243 00:10:13,079 --> 00:10:13,200 [zaza]: yeah 244 00:10:13,883 --> 00:10:19,593 [edward_slingerland]: yeah hunter gatherers are coming together there's no agriculture this thousands of years before agriculture 245 00:10:19,872 --> 00:10:19,892 [zaza]: i 246 00:10:20,374 --> 00:10:21,796 [edward_slingerland]: building this monumental 247 00:10:21,250 --> 00:10:21,331 [zaza]: no 248 00:10:22,057 --> 00:10:23,058 [edward_slingerland]: religious architecture 249 00:10:23,211 --> 00:10:23,271 [zaza]: so 250 00:10:23,219 --> 00:10:29,748 [edward_slingerland]: with these huge stones delay with carvings on and then having these blow out parties 251 00:10:29,430 --> 00:10:29,531 [zaza]: oh 252 00:10:29,908 --> 00:10:32,773 [edward_slingerland]: essentially they're doing they're feasting we have the remains 253 00:10:32,505 --> 00:10:32,646 [zaza]: yes 254 00:10:33,013 --> 00:10:34,996 [edward_slingerland]: of bones of gazelles and other 255 00:10:34,854 --> 00:10:34,956 [zaza]: no 256 00:10:35,076 --> 00:10:40,726 [edward_slingerland]: animals and they're drinking something that we have these big vats that were holding some 257 00:10:40,786 --> 00:10:42,869 [edward_slingerland]: kind of liquid and we don't 258 00:10:42,690 --> 00:10:42,770 [zaza]: ah 259 00:10:42,970 --> 00:10:48,559 [edward_slingerland]: actually have direct chemical residue evidence from this particular site that they were drinking beer 260 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,985 [edward_slingerland]: but we do know that beer was being made in the re and we know 261 00:10:52,045 --> 00:10:52,206 [edward_slingerland]: that 262 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:52,420 [zaza]: ye 263 00:10:52,627 --> 00:10:56,738 [edward_slingerland]: as far as thirteen thousand years ago we have direct chemical evidence of beer production 264 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:57,821 [edward_slingerland]: so they were 265 00:10:58,281 --> 00:10:58,548 [zaza]: they were 266 00:10:58,694 --> 00:11:02,721 [edward_slingerland]: were drinking beer they were drinking they weren't drinking water out of these huge vats 267 00:11:03,703 --> 00:11:07,871 [edward_slingerland]: and possibly haluciding gin laced beer because we know they were doing that in this 268 00:11:07,931 --> 00:11:10,034 [edward_slingerland]: region at that time so 269 00:11:10,953 --> 00:11:11,076 [zaza]: oh 270 00:11:11,096 --> 00:11:17,066 [edward_slingerland]: what it seems like is that you've got hundred gatherers coming together and starting to 271 00:11:17,166 --> 00:11:19,950 [edward_slingerland]: settle down starting to be more sedentary 272 00:11:20,801 --> 00:11:20,943 [zaza]: yeah 273 00:11:21,112 --> 00:11:28,087 [edward_slingerland]: motivated by the desire to produce beer not bread because they're not using grain for 274 00:11:28,187 --> 00:11:30,349 [edward_slingerland]: bread yet and this pattern 275 00:11:30,060 --> 00:11:30,260 [zaza]: oh 276 00:11:30,409 --> 00:11:34,633 [edward_slingerland]: was also revealing as you see the same pattern in other parts of the world 277 00:11:35,464 --> 00:11:37,907 [edward_slingerland]: so agriculture arose independently in 278 00:11:37,901 --> 00:11:37,982 [zaza]: ah 279 00:11:37,988 --> 00:11:41,132 [edward_slingerland]: many places around the world in south america 280 00:11:41,730 --> 00:11:41,911 [zaza]: eric 281 00:11:42,464 --> 00:11:43,847 [edward_slingerland]: the first main 282 00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:43,931 [zaza]: i 283 00:11:43,927 --> 00:11:51,001 [edward_slingerland]: important domesticated crop is maize corn and it's descended from this wild ancestor called teo 284 00:11:51,122 --> 00:11:51,462 [edward_slingerland]: sente 285 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:52,701 [zaza]: oh 286 00:11:52,594 --> 00:11:57,744 [edward_slingerland]: and what's revealing is that if you were looking for a food source you would 287 00:11:57,784 --> 00:12:00,368 [edward_slingerland]: ignore teocinte it's got very small 288 00:12:00,150 --> 00:12:00,412 [zaza]: oh 289 00:12:00,488 --> 00:12:06,118 [edward_slingerland]: grains that's pretty useless for making food but it's got this sugary starchy stock that 290 00:12:06,158 --> 00:12:06,659 [edward_slingerland]: you can make 291 00:12:06,510 --> 00:12:06,630 [zaza]: oh 292 00:12:06,759 --> 00:12:12,609 [edward_slingerland]: beer out of and that's the still make this this beverage called chicha out of 293 00:12:12,689 --> 00:12:13,049 [edward_slingerland]: maize 294 00:12:13,220 --> 00:12:13,362 [zaza]: yeah 295 00:12:13,731 --> 00:12:19,160 [edward_slingerland]: so it's pretty clear that whoever you know focused on teocintday started cultivating 296 00:12:18,690 --> 00:12:19,860 [zaza]: yeah 297 00:12:19,260 --> 00:12:23,038 [edward_slingerland]: it started trying to make it more productive yeah was doing it because they were 298 00:12:23,058 --> 00:12:27,995 [edward_slingerland]: making cheap they were making beer out of it not making tortias north 299 00:12:28,050 --> 00:12:28,292 [zaza]: oh 300 00:12:28,055 --> 00:12:35,668 [edward_slingerland]: america the first cultivated crop is tobacco and tobacco that was grown with various lucidghalucid 301 00:12:35,748 --> 00:12:37,050 [edward_slingerland]: genic substances it was 302 00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:37,355 [zaza]: oh 303 00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:41,140 [edward_slingerland]: mixed with deforemanent oxagnsoso all 304 00:12:41,022 --> 00:12:41,084 [zaza]: so 305 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,051 [edward_slingerland]: over the world it seems like the first domesticated crops 306 00:12:44,662 --> 00:12:44,683 [zaza]: i 307 00:12:46,164 --> 00:12:49,489 [edward_slingerland]: we're chosen for their psycho active properties they were chosen 308 00:12:49,332 --> 00:12:49,392 [zaza]: so 309 00:12:49,529 --> 00:12:49,710 [edward_slingerland]: because 310 00:12:49,552 --> 00:12:49,693 [zaza]: even 311 00:12:49,730 --> 00:12:49,810 [edward_slingerland]: they 312 00:12:49,753 --> 00:12:49,853 [zaza]: the 313 00:12:49,830 --> 00:12:49,950 [edward_slingerland]: would 314 00:12:49,913 --> 00:12:50,314 [zaza]: cultures 315 00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:50,752 [edward_slingerland]: get us high 316 00:12:50,374 --> 00:12:51,076 [zaza]: they didn't have 317 00:12:50,892 --> 00:12:51,273 [edward_slingerland]: or drunk 318 00:12:51,297 --> 00:12:55,828 [zaza]: alcohol they found another way to get kind of high or smashed 319 00:12:56,534 --> 00:12:58,237 [edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah you see this so 320 00:12:58,141 --> 00:12:58,345 [zaza]: nice 321 00:12:58,357 --> 00:13:02,164 [edward_slingerland]: you know in north america unusually they don't have alcohol it's one of the few 322 00:13:02,244 --> 00:13:04,307 [edward_slingerland]: places in the world where they didn't 323 00:13:04,112 --> 00:13:04,253 [zaza]: yeah 324 00:13:04,367 --> 00:13:11,667 [edward_slingerland]: have alcohol and instead they substitute very powerful tobacco so much stronger 325 00:13:11,521 --> 00:13:11,763 [zaza]: okay 326 00:13:11,727 --> 00:13:18,574 [edward_slingerland]: than the stuff we get now and a tobacco store laced with various solucinagins and 327 00:13:18,594 --> 00:13:19,034 [edward_slingerland]: they used 328 00:13:18,861 --> 00:13:18,962 [zaza]: ah 329 00:13:19,095 --> 00:13:23,041 [edward_slingerland]: it in precisely the same way that alcohol is used you know they would smoke 330 00:13:23,081 --> 00:13:25,425 [edward_slingerland]: it before important meetings or any time they had 331 00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:26,340 [zaza]: yeah 332 00:13:25,465 --> 00:13:26,206 [edward_slingerland]: to figure something out 333 00:13:26,742 --> 00:13:26,845 [zaza]: oh 334 00:13:27,208 --> 00:13:32,055 [edward_slingerland]: so it's revealing to me so two things one is that it's the taste for 335 00:13:32,115 --> 00:13:34,379 [edward_slingerland]: intoxication that drove us to 336 00:13:34,504 --> 00:13:34,586 [zaza]: oh 337 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,356 [edward_slingerland]: start civilization in the first place there's a very literal sense 338 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:38,303 [zaza]: very 339 00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:43,927 [edward_slingerland]: in which intoxication led to civilization and also it's very 340 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:43,901 [zaza]: oh 341 00:13:44,008 --> 00:13:50,207 [edward_slingerland]: revealing that in the few places where they don't have alcohol some other chemical intoxicant 342 00:13:49,662 --> 00:13:50,280 [zaza]: yeah 343 00:13:50,647 --> 00:13:56,357 [edward_slingerland]: is used for exactly the same purposes so in north america it was this holucidagenlas 344 00:13:56,437 --> 00:13:59,342 [edward_slingerland]: tobacco in parts of the pacific where they don't 345 00:13:59,364 --> 00:13:59,385 [zaza]: a 346 00:13:59,382 --> 00:14:00,083 [edward_slingerland]: have alcohol 347 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:00,201 [zaza]: oh 348 00:14:00,444 --> 00:14:07,339 [edward_slingerland]: cava this intoxicant made from this route and so that suggests that alcohol is serving 349 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,993 [edward_slingerland]: is very important functional niche it's so important that when alcohol is not there you 350 00:14:13,054 --> 00:14:14,860 [edward_slingerland]: have to fill it with some other intoxicant 351 00:14:15,150 --> 00:14:17,454 [zaza]: yah um 352 00:14:17,776 --> 00:14:17,797 [edward_slingerland]: a 353 00:14:17,795 --> 00:14:22,664 [zaza]: by the way is there any evidence that other other hominis drank like the neandertells 354 00:14:23,085 --> 00:14:24,868 [zaza]: find a way to get messed up 355 00:14:26,247 --> 00:14:30,294 [edward_slingerland]: yeah we don't we don't have any evidence of that it's not impossible they were 356 00:14:30,354 --> 00:14:36,944 [edward_slingerland]: pretty sophisticated they were tool users their brains were probably not that that's different from 357 00:14:37,044 --> 00:14:42,369 [edward_slingerland]: ours but we don't have any evidence that there's some indirect evidence that they may 358 00:14:42,409 --> 00:14:42,989 [edward_slingerland]: have been using 359 00:14:43,213 --> 00:14:43,355 [zaza]: may 360 00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:50,449 [edward_slingerland]: psychodelics so they may have been using mind altering plants but it's very indirect evidence 361 00:14:50,690 --> 00:14:52,454 [edward_slingerland]: so as far as we know it's 362 00:14:52,723 --> 00:14:52,846 [zaza]: oh 363 00:14:52,855 --> 00:14:54,379 [edward_slingerland]: homo sapiens who really 364 00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:54,960 [zaza]: yeah 365 00:14:54,459 --> 00:15:00,527 [edward_slingerland]: start producing and consuming alcohol in a very serious way 366 00:15:00,420 --> 00:15:00,664 [zaza]: oh 367 00:15:01,648 --> 00:15:01,868 [edward_slingerland]: tens 368 00:15:01,890 --> 00:15:02,031 [zaza]: oh 369 00:15:01,928 --> 00:15:04,150 [edward_slingerland]: of thousands of years ago we have indirect 370 00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:04,143 [zaza]: yeah 371 00:15:04,370 --> 00:15:05,812 [edward_slingerland]: evidence twenty thousand years ago 372 00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:06,450 [zaza]: yeah 373 00:15:05,872 --> 00:15:07,073 [edward_slingerland]: and it's probably earlier than that 374 00:15:08,302 --> 00:15:14,075 [zaza]: isn't there some theory i might have it quite wrong here but that this cognitive 375 00:15:14,155 --> 00:15:14,736 [zaza]: revolution 376 00:15:14,994 --> 00:15:15,314 [edward_slingerland]: oh 377 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:24,223 [zaza]: and homo sapiens happened due to use of intoxicants or i know i wasn't mushrooms 378 00:15:24,263 --> 00:15:26,221 [zaza]: or something is there any 379 00:15:26,214 --> 00:15:26,554 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 380 00:15:26,302 --> 00:15:27,005 [zaza]: credence to that 381 00:15:26,915 --> 00:15:27,055 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 382 00:15:27,125 --> 00:15:27,406 [zaza]: theory 383 00:15:28,436 --> 00:15:30,559 [edward_slingerland]: yeah i'm spacing on this guy's name right now 384 00:15:31,692 --> 00:15:32,356 [zaza]: uvalharari 385 00:15:31,901 --> 00:15:32,301 [edward_slingerland]: terrence 386 00:15:32,457 --> 00:15:32,477 [zaza]: i 387 00:15:32,461 --> 00:15:32,962 [edward_slingerland]: mckenna 388 00:15:32,558 --> 00:15:33,001 [zaza]: think it is 389 00:15:34,544 --> 00:15:34,664 [edward_slingerland]: no 390 00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:34,870 [zaza]: no 391 00:15:34,885 --> 00:15:36,388 [edward_slingerland]: no there's he's he's relying 392 00:15:36,274 --> 00:15:36,736 [zaza]: he mentions 393 00:15:36,449 --> 00:15:36,810 [edward_slingerland]: on somebody 394 00:15:36,816 --> 00:15:36,876 [zaza]: it 395 00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:37,170 [edward_slingerland]: else's 396 00:15:36,956 --> 00:15:37,418 [zaza]: in his book 397 00:15:37,251 --> 00:15:37,752 [edward_slingerland]: work at em 398 00:15:38,321 --> 00:15:38,441 [zaza]: yeah 399 00:15:39,114 --> 00:15:39,314 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 400 00:15:39,243 --> 00:15:39,424 [zaza]: okay 401 00:15:39,554 --> 00:15:41,417 [edward_slingerland]: it's it's actually somebody else's theory 402 00:15:42,281 --> 00:15:42,583 [zaza]: all right 403 00:15:42,459 --> 00:15:46,105 [edward_slingerland]: can i think i don't know why i'm basing on his name but yeah this 404 00:15:46,185 --> 00:15:46,426 [edward_slingerland]: is the 405 00:15:46,426 --> 00:15:46,487 [zaza]: ah 406 00:15:46,486 --> 00:15:51,594 [edward_slingerland]: so called stone stone ypothesis that taking rooms 407 00:15:51,270 --> 00:15:51,592 [zaza]: yeah 408 00:15:51,895 --> 00:15:56,803 [edward_slingerland]: you know led to this rewiring of our brains that caused us to be able 409 00:15:56,863 --> 00:16:02,092 [edward_slingerland]: to have language and all this other stuff i don't buy it it's based on 410 00:16:02,152 --> 00:16:10,872 [edward_slingerland]: a kind of la marcian evolutionary story so you know somehow taking 411 00:16:10,611 --> 00:16:10,632 [zaza]: a 412 00:16:11,373 --> 00:16:12,895 [edward_slingerland]: taking mushrooms may change your 413 00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:13,175 [zaza]: yeah 414 00:16:12,995 --> 00:16:17,423 [edward_slingerland]: brain it's not going to change your kids brain right because they're just going to 415 00:16:17,463 --> 00:16:18,765 [edward_slingerland]: get the same and you had because 416 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:19,500 [zaza]: yeah 417 00:16:18,885 --> 00:16:24,434 [edward_slingerland]: gens don't pass on acquired traits like something that happens when you take mushrooms so 418 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:24,781 [zaza]: oh 419 00:16:24,475 --> 00:16:28,521 [edward_slingerland]: i don't think it makes sense in terms of the way evolution works but what 420 00:16:28,722 --> 00:16:33,427 [edward_slingerland]: i think does make sense is the idea and this is something that michael pollen 421 00:16:33,587 --> 00:16:42,066 [edward_slingerland]: has argued in his book how to change your mind that psychodelics we're probably really 422 00:16:42,126 --> 00:16:44,490 [edward_slingerland]: important in the early stages of civilization 423 00:16:44,904 --> 00:16:44,986 [zaza]: ah 424 00:16:45,191 --> 00:16:47,014 [edward_slingerland]: because they by 425 00:16:47,413 --> 00:16:47,661 [zaza]: nice 426 00:16:47,575 --> 00:16:52,283 [edward_slingerland]: by in the same way alcohol does it de patterns your brain and allows parts 427 00:16:52,363 --> 00:16:57,245 [edward_slingerland]: of your and i lows a lot of cross talk that doesn't normally happen in 428 00:16:57,286 --> 00:16:59,569 [edward_slingerland]: your brain and that leads you to come up with new 429 00:16:59,550 --> 00:16:59,772 [zaza]: oh 430 00:16:59,710 --> 00:17:05,279 [edward_slingerland]: ideas new and a lot of them he compares it i like his analogy he 431 00:17:05,379 --> 00:17:08,003 [edward_slingerland]: compares it to a mutageinin 432 00:17:07,681 --> 00:17:07,866 [zaza]: that's 433 00:17:08,164 --> 00:17:10,606 [edward_slingerland]: dic evolution so genetic evolution 434 00:17:10,701 --> 00:17:10,823 [zaza]: yes 435 00:17:10,706 --> 00:17:16,081 [edward_slingerland]: could only work because there are mutations right you get gens changing most mutations are 436 00:17:16,161 --> 00:17:21,681 [edward_slingerland]: bad neutral or bad but every one in you get one that's good and that's 437 00:17:21,721 --> 00:17:23,724 [edward_slingerland]: how genetic evolution progresses 438 00:17:23,310 --> 00:17:23,516 [zaza]: yeah 439 00:17:24,726 --> 00:17:30,075 [edward_slingerland]: he argues that for cultural evolution psychodelics are doing the same thing they're scrambling up 440 00:17:30,375 --> 00:17:34,142 [edward_slingerland]: your brain they're causing you to come up with these really weird new combinations of 441 00:17:34,242 --> 00:17:38,168 [edward_slingerland]: ideas most of the time it's garbage right most 442 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:38,461 [zaza]: yeah 443 00:17:38,208 --> 00:17:39,831 [edward_slingerland]: of the time the stuff you 444 00:17:39,887 --> 00:17:40,007 [zaza]: yeah 445 00:17:39,931 --> 00:17:40,112 [edward_slingerland]: write 446 00:17:40,087 --> 00:17:40,288 [zaza]: i can 447 00:17:40,212 --> 00:17:40,552 [edward_slingerland]: down 448 00:17:40,369 --> 00:17:40,690 [zaza]: attest 449 00:17:40,693 --> 00:17:41,153 [edward_slingerland]: the insight 450 00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:41,192 [zaza]: to that 451 00:17:41,334 --> 00:17:41,434 [edward_slingerland]: you 452 00:17:41,473 --> 00:17:42,136 [zaza]: unfortunately 453 00:17:41,535 --> 00:17:42,800 [edward_slingerland]: have yes yeah 454 00:17:43,841 --> 00:17:44,121 [zaza]: i made 455 00:17:43,965 --> 00:17:44,085 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 456 00:17:44,161 --> 00:17:44,301 [zaza]: some 457 00:17:44,286 --> 00:17:44,367 [edward_slingerland]: what 458 00:17:44,362 --> 00:17:44,622 [zaza]: notes 459 00:17:44,387 --> 00:17:44,869 [edward_slingerland]: i talk in the 460 00:17:44,842 --> 00:17:44,963 [zaza]: when 461 00:17:44,909 --> 00:17:45,070 [edward_slingerland]: book 462 00:17:45,043 --> 00:17:45,063 [zaza]: i 463 00:17:45,170 --> 00:17:45,451 [edward_slingerland]: about 464 00:17:46,325 --> 00:17:49,250 [zaza]: yeah exactly a friend of mine let's call it 465 00:17:49,284 --> 00:17:49,524 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 466 00:17:49,290 --> 00:17:51,213 [zaza]: a friend of mine did some psychadelics and then he 467 00:17:51,211 --> 00:17:51,391 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 468 00:17:51,293 --> 00:17:52,215 [zaza]: made notes it wasn't me 469 00:17:52,435 --> 00:17:52,596 [edward_slingerland]: right 470 00:17:53,276 --> 00:17:53,998 [zaza]: and then you know 471 00:17:53,881 --> 00:17:54,061 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 472 00:17:54,258 --> 00:17:54,999 [zaza]: i thought it was kind of 473 00:17:55,074 --> 00:17:55,279 [edward_slingerland]: yes 474 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,043 [zaza]: it's going to be the new war in piece on the new tolstoy 475 00:17:58,044 --> 00:17:58,204 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 476 00:17:58,383 --> 00:17:58,463 [zaza]: and 477 00:17:58,445 --> 00:17:58,626 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 478 00:17:58,523 --> 00:17:59,464 [zaza]: then i read it the next 479 00:17:59,409 --> 00:17:59,569 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 480 00:17:59,544 --> 00:18:00,706 [zaza]: day and i 481 00:18:01,074 --> 00:18:01,294 [edward_slingerland]: yes 482 00:18:01,226 --> 00:18:03,248 [zaza]: you know suffice to say that i'm not the new tolstoy 483 00:18:04,544 --> 00:18:04,784 [edward_slingerland]: yes 484 00:18:05,070 --> 00:18:05,913 [zaza]: not even the new dan 485 00:18:05,925 --> 00:18:05,985 [edward_slingerland]: in 486 00:18:05,993 --> 00:18:06,254 [zaza]: brown 487 00:18:06,025 --> 00:18:10,248 [edward_slingerland]: the book i talk about yeah not even the new dan brown i wrote an 488 00:18:10,489 --> 00:18:16,674 [edward_slingerland]: say called that proved definitively that truth is the color of blue and 489 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:17,715 [zaza]: uh 490 00:18:16,734 --> 00:18:20,681 [edward_slingerland]: it was about twenty pages long and it had diagrams in it and i was 491 00:18:20,761 --> 00:18:23,265 [edward_slingerland]: sure that i was a grad student at the time i was sure 492 00:18:23,291 --> 00:18:23,512 [zaza]: okay 493 00:18:23,365 --> 00:18:28,153 [edward_slingerland]: that this is it this is my dissertation and they're not only going to just 494 00:18:28,233 --> 00:18:29,415 [edward_slingerland]: pass me right away but 495 00:18:29,370 --> 00:18:30,510 [zaza]: oh 496 00:18:29,475 --> 00:18:33,322 [edward_slingerland]: i'll just they'll give me a full professorship at stanford because i've just i've figured 497 00:18:33,382 --> 00:18:33,602 [edward_slingerland]: out the 498 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:34,530 [zaza]: yeah 499 00:18:33,622 --> 00:18:36,166 [edward_slingerland]: most important thing in the universe and then i read it the 500 00:18:36,161 --> 00:18:36,242 [zaza]: the 501 00:18:36,206 --> 00:18:39,011 [edward_slingerland]: next morning and i was like yeah okay i will not 502 00:18:39,020 --> 00:18:39,301 [zaza]: sounds 503 00:18:39,071 --> 00:18:39,392 [edward_slingerland]: turn that 504 00:18:39,361 --> 00:18:39,521 [zaza]: like 505 00:18:39,472 --> 00:18:39,632 [edward_slingerland]: into 506 00:18:39,581 --> 00:18:39,681 [zaza]: the 507 00:18:39,672 --> 00:18:40,173 [edward_slingerland]: my advisor 508 00:18:39,801 --> 00:18:40,662 [zaza]: hitchhawkhith 509 00:18:40,434 --> 00:18:40,679 [edward_slingerland]: oh 510 00:18:40,722 --> 00:18:43,125 [zaza]: hikers guide to the galaxy you know the number 511 00:18:42,995 --> 00:18:43,195 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 512 00:18:43,225 --> 00:18:43,426 [zaza]: forty 513 00:18:43,375 --> 00:18:43,556 [edward_slingerland]: right 514 00:18:43,486 --> 00:18:43,586 [zaza]: two 515 00:18:43,756 --> 00:18:43,936 [edward_slingerland]: right 516 00:18:44,367 --> 00:18:44,888 [zaza]: yeah right 517 00:18:44,938 --> 00:18:45,699 [edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah 518 00:18:45,568 --> 00:18:47,370 [zaza]: awesome oh yeah 519 00:18:47,362 --> 00:18:48,003 [edward_slingerland]: so so 520 00:18:48,291 --> 00:18:48,432 [zaza]: oh 521 00:18:48,744 --> 00:18:49,826 [edward_slingerland]: it's mostly garbage 522 00:18:49,547 --> 00:18:49,710 [zaza]: yeah 523 00:18:50,307 --> 00:18:51,889 [edward_slingerland]: just in the same way that most genetic 524 00:18:51,823 --> 00:18:51,843 [zaza]: a 525 00:18:51,970 --> 00:18:57,619 [edward_slingerland]: mutations are are harmful or use yes but every once in a while something 526 00:18:57,271 --> 00:18:57,291 [zaza]: i 527 00:18:57,819 --> 00:19:00,263 [edward_slingerland]: new and really important may come out of that and 528 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:00,840 [zaza]: yeah 529 00:19:00,303 --> 00:19:03,449 [edward_slingerland]: that's the raw material that cultural evolution can work on 530 00:19:03,861 --> 00:19:04,082 [zaza]: right 531 00:19:04,010 --> 00:19:10,260 [edward_slingerland]: and so i think proper way to understand the role of psychadelics for instance 532 00:19:10,650 --> 00:19:11,310 [zaza]: yes 533 00:19:10,721 --> 00:19:16,851 [edward_slingerland]: in human history is as this kind of really dramatic it's like shaking up the 534 00:19:16,911 --> 00:19:17,052 [edward_slingerland]: snow 535 00:19:16,982 --> 00:19:17,667 [zaza]: make 536 00:19:17,152 --> 00:19:21,319 [edward_slingerland]: globe you're just all this weird stuff is going to happen and some of it 537 00:19:21,379 --> 00:19:24,486 [edward_slingerland]: may be good and basically al all 538 00:19:24,481 --> 00:19:24,965 [zaza]: alcohol 539 00:19:24,546 --> 00:19:28,095 [edward_slingerland]: is doing the same thing less dramatically 540 00:19:29,231 --> 00:19:29,252 [zaza]: m 541 00:19:29,458 --> 00:19:30,900 [edward_slingerland]: and so you're going to get 542 00:19:30,849 --> 00:19:30,870 [zaza]: m 543 00:19:31,281 --> 00:19:36,249 [edward_slingerland]: you're going to get less creative insights because they're not your brain isn't as wildly 544 00:19:36,349 --> 00:19:41,656 [edward_slingerland]: de patterned as it is with sychodelics but you're probably more likely to come up 545 00:19:41,716 --> 00:19:47,503 [edward_slingerland]: with something useful on alcohol than on mushrooms you're more likely to write war peace 546 00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:50,079 [zaza]: yea 547 00:19:48,916 --> 00:19:51,708 [edward_slingerland]: alcohol than you are on on suicide 548 00:19:51,461 --> 00:19:51,641 [zaza]: uh 549 00:19:51,769 --> 00:19:51,829 [edward_slingerland]: and 550 00:19:51,822 --> 00:19:52,082 [zaza]: hence 551 00:19:51,869 --> 00:19:52,251 [edward_slingerland]: mushrooms 552 00:19:52,163 --> 00:19:54,648 [zaza]: why we have so much awesome russian literature 553 00:19:56,414 --> 00:19:56,615 [edward_slingerland]: yes 554 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:56,800 [zaza]: right 555 00:19:57,019 --> 00:19:57,462 [edward_slingerland]: exactly 556 00:19:58,403 --> 00:20:01,208 [zaza]: um speaking of evolution you write 557 00:20:01,107 --> 00:20:01,351 [edward_slingerland]: he 558 00:20:01,268 --> 00:20:05,395 [zaza]: in the book that it works surprisingly quickly right you also write that 559 00:20:05,454 --> 00:20:06,054 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 560 00:20:05,455 --> 00:20:12,847 [zaza]: historically cultures that have eliminated alcohol their societies didn't have an advantage over cultures that 561 00:20:12,967 --> 00:20:17,715 [zaza]: drank even those that drank quite heavily like the vikings i think you mentioned those 562 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:23,465 [zaza]: which is what will happen if alcohol was just pure poison and nothing else on 563 00:20:23,505 --> 00:20:25,428 [zaza]: top of that you know if that was 564 00:20:25,337 --> 00:20:25,458 [edward_slingerland]: oh 565 00:20:25,488 --> 00:20:26,049 [zaza]: the case like 566 00:20:25,944 --> 00:20:26,104 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 567 00:20:26,089 --> 00:20:27,391 [zaza]: you just said evolution 568 00:20:27,207 --> 00:20:27,388 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 569 00:20:27,451 --> 00:20:32,139 [zaza]: with quickly probably eliminate our taste for it and yet it hasn't 570 00:20:32,019 --> 00:20:32,039 [edward_slingerland]: a 571 00:20:32,642 --> 00:20:35,731 [zaza]: so what are some of the positives of 572 00:20:35,814 --> 00:20:36,804 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 573 00:20:35,851 --> 00:20:38,234 [zaza]: alcohol how is it how how does it help 574 00:20:38,094 --> 00:20:38,316 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 575 00:20:38,314 --> 00:20:39,596 [zaza]: us or how did it used to 576 00:20:39,624 --> 00:20:39,644 [edward_slingerland]: m 577 00:20:39,636 --> 00:20:41,358 [zaza]: help us when we were forming societies 578 00:20:41,214 --> 00:20:45,230 [edward_slingerland]: yeah so to understand the functions 579 00:20:44,671 --> 00:20:44,854 [zaza]: yeah 580 00:20:45,350 --> 00:20:51,288 [edward_slingerland]: of alcohol you have to understand the human ecological niche so you have to understand 581 00:20:51,368 --> 00:20:57,286 [edward_slingerland]: how unusual we are as a species so we're primates but we live these lives 582 00:20:57,346 --> 00:21:01,013 [edward_slingerland]: that are just radically different than our nearest primate relatives 583 00:21:01,073 --> 00:21:01,216 [zaza]: right 584 00:21:01,433 --> 00:21:03,336 [edward_slingerland]: chimpanzes um 585 00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:03,770 [zaza]: m 586 00:21:04,218 --> 00:21:07,383 [edward_slingerland]: we live in these enormous groups where we're co operating 587 00:21:07,260 --> 00:21:07,523 [zaza]: oh 588 00:21:07,463 --> 00:21:09,206 [edward_slingerland]: with strangers all the time 589 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:09,245 [zaza]: oh 590 00:21:10,489 --> 00:21:17,250 [edward_slingerland]: were completely dependent on tools so we we literally cannot survive without tools and that 591 00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:22,158 [edward_slingerland]: means that we're dependent on creativity and innovation because that's how you get new tools 592 00:21:22,218 --> 00:21:25,924 [edward_slingerland]: that that's how you get your tool set keeps up with the environ it keeps 593 00:21:26,005 --> 00:21:29,871 [edward_slingerland]: up with your neighbors who are also innovating their tool sets um 594 00:21:30,450 --> 00:21:30,612 [zaza]: oh 595 00:21:31,053 --> 00:21:35,420 [edward_slingerland]: so so the two main problems that i focus on alcohol has a lot of 596 00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:39,808 [edward_slingerland]: functions but they're too really dramatic once that i focused on in the book the 597 00:21:39,888 --> 00:21:45,177 [edward_slingerland]: first is creativity so this has to do with our dependence on technology and innovation 598 00:21:45,978 --> 00:21:52,809 [edward_slingerland]: um human beings have to be coming constantly with creative solutions to problems in their 599 00:21:52,869 --> 00:21:57,417 [edward_slingerland]: environment we can't just rely on our instincts the way a lion or a gazelle 600 00:21:57,577 --> 00:21:58,158 [edward_slingerland]: can we have 601 00:21:58,110 --> 00:21:58,890 [zaza]: yeah 602 00:21:58,198 --> 00:22:02,936 [edward_slingerland]: to have to come up with new tools new ideas um the problem 603 00:22:02,730 --> 00:22:02,931 [zaza]: yeah 604 00:22:03,037 --> 00:22:10,507 [edward_slingerland]: is that adults human adults are not very creative every creative as kids but as 605 00:22:10,627 --> 00:22:13,011 [edward_slingerland]: we age as we mature we 606 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:13,341 [zaza]: oh 607 00:22:13,111 --> 00:22:16,938 [edward_slingerland]: get less and less creative and so i talk about the work of alison coptic 608 00:22:17,058 --> 00:22:22,455 [edward_slingerland]: she's a developmental psychologist of berkeley and she's done these very elegant experiment showing that 609 00:22:23,910 --> 00:22:23,930 [zaza]: m 610 00:22:24,314 --> 00:22:28,723 [edward_slingerland]: you're talking about what psychology s call lateral thinking so this is where you're trying 611 00:22:28,763 --> 00:22:31,128 [edward_slingerland]: to come up with something new or solve a problem 612 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:31,462 [zaza]: oh 613 00:22:31,328 --> 00:22:37,158 [edward_slingerland]: that requires insight you can't just kind of power your way to a solution four 614 00:22:37,259 --> 00:22:39,603 [edward_slingerland]: year old are great at these tats they 615 00:22:39,630 --> 00:22:39,852 [zaza]: yeah 616 00:22:39,663 --> 00:22:45,693 [edward_slingerland]: solve them very easily and your ability to solve these problems decreases over time and 617 00:22:45,733 --> 00:22:50,278 [edward_slingerland]: this linear fashion and what i do in the book is show her graph of 618 00:22:50,358 --> 00:22:55,787 [edward_slingerland]: our performance as we aged on these creativity tats i lay on top of it 619 00:22:56,008 --> 00:23:02,176 [edward_slingerland]: a graft showing the maturation of the pre frontal court so basically as our pre 620 00:23:02,236 --> 00:23:08,983 [edward_slingerland]: frontal cortex part of our brain right right up here matures we become less creative 621 00:23:10,334 --> 00:23:15,723 [edward_slingerland]: the p f c h to use the shorthand for it is a really important 622 00:23:15,943 --> 00:23:20,992 [edward_slingerland]: part of human beings it's the it's the locus of cogative control or executive function 623 00:23:21,292 --> 00:23:26,581 [edward_slingerland]: what allows you to stay focused on a task to get up on time to 624 00:23:26,821 --> 00:23:37,503 [edward_slingerland]: suppress inappropriate desires or emotions to delay gratification key to being a successful adult is 625 00:23:37,563 --> 00:23:37,944 [edward_slingerland]: also the 626 00:23:37,950 --> 00:23:38,051 [zaza]: oh 627 00:23:38,065 --> 00:23:44,128 [edward_slingerland]: last part of a human being to mature so long after you are completely physically 628 00:23:44,308 --> 00:23:49,717 [edward_slingerland]: sexually mature your p f c is still not done developing doesn't develop into your 629 00:23:49,838 --> 00:23:52,061 [edward_slingerland]: well into your twenties mid twenties or so 630 00:23:52,873 --> 00:23:53,013 [zaza]: yeah 631 00:23:53,043 --> 00:23:53,183 [edward_slingerland]: which 632 00:23:53,074 --> 00:23:53,094 [zaza]: i 633 00:23:53,223 --> 00:23:53,303 [edward_slingerland]: is 634 00:23:53,234 --> 00:23:53,596 [zaza]: sometimes 635 00:23:53,484 --> 00:23:53,605 [edward_slingerland]: which 636 00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:53,817 [zaza]: still 637 00:23:53,665 --> 00:23:54,047 [edward_slingerland]: is really 638 00:23:53,878 --> 00:23:54,119 [zaza]: wonder 639 00:23:54,168 --> 00:23:54,430 [edward_slingerland]: weird 640 00:23:54,219 --> 00:23:55,626 [zaza]: if mine has fully developed yet 641 00:23:55,744 --> 00:23:57,126 [edward_slingerland]: yeah exactly so 642 00:23:57,154 --> 00:23:57,174 [zaza]: a 643 00:23:57,827 --> 00:24:01,092 [edward_slingerland]: and i know some twenty year old who really they're not quite fully cooked 644 00:24:00,953 --> 00:24:00,974 [zaza]: a 645 00:24:01,193 --> 00:24:02,234 [edward_slingerland]: yet um 646 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:02,361 [zaza]: yeah 647 00:24:03,597 --> 00:24:06,001 [edward_slingerland]: this is weird it's weird that this part 648 00:24:05,902 --> 00:24:06,004 [zaza]: ah 649 00:24:06,041 --> 00:24:10,709 [edward_slingerland]: of the brain doesn't mature until so late in life and to me that suggests 650 00:24:10,769 --> 00:24:11,911 [edward_slingerland]: that there's an evolutionary 651 00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:11,590 [zaza]: oh 652 00:24:12,011 --> 00:24:16,779 [edward_slingerland]: trade off that evolution is trying to kind of deal with that's why it's slow 653 00:24:16,899 --> 00:24:21,046 [edward_slingerland]: walking in the development of the p f c because as important as it is 654 00:24:21,146 --> 00:24:24,271 [edward_slingerland]: to be able to tie shoes and get to work on time 655 00:24:24,324 --> 00:24:24,447 [zaza]: eh 656 00:24:24,351 --> 00:24:30,662 [edward_slingerland]: and focus on things it has cost you're less able to learn new things and 657 00:24:30,702 --> 00:24:36,632 [edward_slingerland]: you're less able to solve these creativity path to make creative insights and so what 658 00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:37,161 [zaza]: what 659 00:24:37,393 --> 00:24:41,900 [edward_slingerland]: what i argue is that humans have figured out a clever way to deal with 660 00:24:41,941 --> 00:24:46,069 [edward_slingerland]: this tension which is i'm an adult i have a fully developed p f c 661 00:24:46,370 --> 00:24:50,399 [edward_slingerland]: that means i'm not as creative as a four or five year old but if 662 00:24:50,479 --> 00:24:57,131 [edward_slingerland]: i could take a substance that would temporarily reverse that maturation process that would that 663 00:24:57,191 --> 00:25:01,378 [edward_slingerland]: would down regulate my p f c and kind of take me back to being 664 00:25:01,699 --> 00:25:06,826 [edward_slingerland]: as flexible as a kid is cogatively that would be awesome right especially if it 665 00:25:06,866 --> 00:25:10,209 [edward_slingerland]: was temporary and only that lasted for a couple of hours i was back to 666 00:25:10,289 --> 00:25:15,515 [edward_slingerland]: normal again so basically one of the main functions of alcohol and this is true 667 00:25:15,595 --> 00:25:21,966 [edward_slingerland]: of other chemical into cans psychodelics in canabas is that it's down regulating the pfcit's 668 00:25:22,046 --> 00:25:26,514 [edward_slingerland]: turning down its function so so in essence when you have a couple of drinks 669 00:25:28,505 --> 00:25:33,078 [edward_slingerland]: you're taking yourself back to the kind of cogative flexibility you had as as a 670 00:25:33,198 --> 00:25:38,717 [edward_slingerland]: child as a younger person but you have all the knowledge and the abilities that 671 00:25:38,757 --> 00:25:39,478 [edward_slingerland]: an adult has 672 00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:39,751 [zaza]: oh 673 00:25:39,778 --> 00:25:43,061 [edward_slingerland]: so it's analogy i think so i'm arguing that alcohol is this 674 00:25:44,010 --> 00:25:44,212 [zaza]: oh 675 00:25:44,042 --> 00:25:48,377 [edward_slingerland]: cultural technology we have used strategically 676 00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:49,350 [zaza]: yeah 677 00:25:49,059 --> 00:25:52,784 [edward_slingerland]: in situations where we need creative insight this is why 678 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:53,021 [zaza]: yeah 679 00:25:52,904 --> 00:25:59,113 [edward_slingerland]: across the world throughout history you see this relationship between artists and poets and alcohol 680 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:07,251 [zaza]: right right that probably applies if we exercise moderation right society pretty much 681 00:26:07,254 --> 00:26:08,732 [edward_slingerland]: mhm 682 00:26:07,291 --> 00:26:14,121 [zaza]: across the board societies different societies historically they emphasise moderate and you have this wonderful 683 00:26:14,281 --> 00:26:20,206 [zaza]: bit from an ancient greek playwright in the book that really made me chuckle actually 684 00:26:20,226 --> 00:26:22,228 [zaza]: you know what i'm going to read it real quick it's not that long 685 00:26:22,304 --> 00:26:22,526 [edward_slingerland]: okay 686 00:26:22,808 --> 00:26:23,589 [zaza]: i think i've marked 687 00:26:23,412 --> 00:26:23,674 [edward_slingerland]: all right 688 00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:30,600 [zaza]: it yeah page fifty two i love that he says this three cups only do 689 00:26:30,624 --> 00:26:30,885 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 690 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,828 [zaza]: i propose for sensible men one for health the second for love and pleasure and 691 00:26:35,868 --> 00:26:36,830 [zaza]: the third for leap 692 00:26:36,804 --> 00:26:37,084 [edward_slingerland]: oh 693 00:26:37,551 --> 00:26:40,817 [zaza]: when this has been drunk up wise guests make for home 694 00:26:41,064 --> 00:26:41,084 [edward_slingerland]: m 695 00:26:41,778 --> 00:26:47,147 [zaza]: the fourth cup is mine no longer but belongs to hubris the fifth to shouting 696 00:26:47,708 --> 00:26:53,518 [zaza]: the sixth two well the seventh to black eyes the eight two summonses the ninth 697 00:26:53,658 --> 00:26:53,698 [zaza]: to 698 00:26:53,686 --> 00:26:53,849 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 699 00:26:53,818 --> 00:27:00,329 [zaza]: bile and the tenth to madness and people tossing the furniture about i mean it's 700 00:27:00,344 --> 00:27:00,567 [edward_slingerland]: yes 701 00:27:00,610 --> 00:27:01,732 [zaza]: funny because it's so 702 00:27:01,794 --> 00:27:02,964 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 703 00:27:01,872 --> 00:27:04,216 [zaza]: relatable still you know going from 704 00:27:04,147 --> 00:27:04,287 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 705 00:27:04,737 --> 00:27:09,444 [zaza]: a nice cocktail conversation to keith moon and just a couple of shots right 706 00:27:09,726 --> 00:27:09,926 [edward_slingerland]: right 707 00:27:10,146 --> 00:27:10,486 [zaza]: so it 708 00:27:10,568 --> 00:27:10,768 [edward_slingerland]: right 709 00:27:10,586 --> 00:27:13,071 [zaza]: seems we had problems with dosing 710 00:27:13,134 --> 00:27:13,455 [edward_slingerland]: oh 711 00:27:13,492 --> 00:27:19,487 [zaza]: long before we had like whiskey and distillation um when it comes to alcohol why 712 00:27:19,567 --> 00:27:22,846 [zaza]: is it so easy to get carried away suppose 713 00:27:22,884 --> 00:27:23,724 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 714 00:27:22,906 --> 00:27:23,488 [zaza]: is my question 715 00:27:24,894 --> 00:27:27,679 [edward_slingerland]: because it's incredibly addictive alcohol 716 00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:27,530 [zaza]: m 717 00:27:27,719 --> 00:27:29,241 [edward_slingerland]: is a very addictive substance 718 00:27:28,929 --> 00:27:28,950 [zaza]: m 719 00:27:30,423 --> 00:27:35,011 [edward_slingerland]: it also you know so it's one of the functions is a down regulate your 720 00:27:35,111 --> 00:27:37,255 [edward_slingerland]: p c is great 721 00:27:37,090 --> 00:27:37,213 [zaza]: yeah 722 00:27:37,335 --> 00:27:44,089 [edward_slingerland]: for creative insight it's bad for making decisions that value your future self over your 723 00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:48,216 [edward_slingerland]: present self so it's the more you drink the less you're able to regulate your 724 00:27:48,276 --> 00:27:49,277 [edward_slingerland]: own drinking because 725 00:27:49,233 --> 00:27:49,254 [zaza]: a 726 00:27:49,338 --> 00:27:51,742 [edward_slingerland]: your your inhibitions are down and your cogative control 727 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:52,440 [zaza]: oh 728 00:27:51,882 --> 00:27:54,606 [edward_slingerland]: is reduced so this is why 729 00:27:54,512 --> 00:27:56,858 [zaza]: is that why yeah sorry go ahead 730 00:27:56,937 --> 00:27:58,407 [edward_slingerland]: go ahead go ahead 731 00:27:58,671 --> 00:27:59,194 [zaza]: is that why 732 00:28:00,384 --> 00:28:00,792 [edward_slingerland]: oh 733 00:28:00,690 --> 00:28:01,872 [zaza]: we think other people look 734 00:28:01,845 --> 00:28:01,925 [edward_slingerland]: ah 735 00:28:01,932 --> 00:28:03,474 [zaza]: so much sexier when we've swallowed 736 00:28:03,193 --> 00:28:03,333 [edward_slingerland]: yes 737 00:28:03,534 --> 00:28:04,716 [zaza]: a couple is it really 738 00:28:04,544 --> 00:28:04,724 [edward_slingerland]: yes 739 00:28:04,776 --> 00:28:05,377 [zaza]: as they say you know 740 00:28:05,306 --> 00:28:05,467 [edward_slingerland]: well 741 00:28:05,758 --> 00:28:11,668 [zaza]: that our standards are diminishing really fast or do just our blocks get removed and 742 00:28:11,728 --> 00:28:12,169 [zaza]: we suddenly 743 00:28:11,934 --> 00:28:12,256 [edward_slingerland]: oh 744 00:28:12,229 --> 00:28:14,055 [zaza]: recognize beauty and all its forms 745 00:28:15,495 --> 00:28:17,939 [edward_slingerland]: a little bit of both so it's partly 746 00:28:17,702 --> 00:28:17,905 [zaza]: right 747 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,742 [edward_slingerland]: disinhobation so we 748 00:28:20,271 --> 00:28:20,352 [zaza]: no 749 00:28:20,844 --> 00:28:24,670 [edward_slingerland]: say and feel things that we really do say and feel but that we were 750 00:28:24,731 --> 00:28:29,099 [edward_slingerland]: suppressing that our p f c was pressing earlier but also 751 00:28:28,860 --> 00:28:29,080 [zaza]: yeah 752 00:28:30,101 --> 00:28:34,110 [edward_slingerland]: the idea of beer goggles is a real thing so the 753 00:28:34,142 --> 00:28:34,283 [zaza]: i've 754 00:28:34,190 --> 00:28:34,391 [edward_slingerland]: other 755 00:28:34,344 --> 00:28:34,525 [zaza]: never 756 00:28:34,491 --> 00:28:34,671 [edward_slingerland]: main 757 00:28:34,565 --> 00:28:34,887 [zaza]: heard this 758 00:28:34,751 --> 00:28:35,072 [edward_slingerland]: effect 759 00:28:34,947 --> 00:28:35,731 [zaza]: expression before 760 00:28:36,515 --> 00:28:39,199 [edward_slingerland]: oh yeah an english it's a very common phrase 761 00:28:39,881 --> 00:28:40,083 [zaza]: right 762 00:28:40,722 --> 00:28:40,862 [edward_slingerland]: it's 763 00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:42,554 [zaza]: oh 764 00:28:42,505 --> 00:28:44,007 [edward_slingerland]: the two main effects of alcohol 765 00:28:44,010 --> 00:28:45,839 [zaza]: ye 766 00:28:44,067 --> 00:28:47,212 [edward_slingerland]: that i focus on our first is the turning down of the p c that's 767 00:28:47,333 --> 00:28:53,363 [edward_slingerland]: taking away our inhibitions the other is it's ramping up these feel good chemicals in 768 00:28:53,443 --> 00:28:55,667 [edward_slingerland]: our body ceratonan and dorpins 769 00:28:57,270 --> 00:28:58,140 [zaza]: yeah 770 00:28:57,450 --> 00:29:02,057 [edward_slingerland]: these are making us feel better at ourselves so we 771 00:29:02,174 --> 00:29:02,255 [zaza]: oh 772 00:29:02,298 --> 00:29:02,578 [edward_slingerland]: feel 773 00:29:02,315 --> 00:29:02,456 [zaza]: yeah 774 00:29:03,059 --> 00:29:05,763 [edward_slingerland]: more more handsome and more clever than 775 00:29:05,790 --> 00:29:06,211 [zaza]: oh 776 00:29:05,844 --> 00:29:11,112 [edward_slingerland]: we were before drinking um but we also feel better about other people because these 777 00:29:11,152 --> 00:29:14,939 [edward_slingerland]: are pro social cenmicgoals they make us like other people more they make us bond 778 00:29:14,979 --> 00:29:21,269 [edward_slingerland]: with other people more so it's a combination of it's both reducing inhibitions and 779 00:29:21,732 --> 00:29:21,895 [zaza]: yeah 780 00:29:22,091 --> 00:29:26,638 [edward_slingerland]: and essentially creating new feeling in a way because it's wrapping up these feel good 781 00:29:26,758 --> 00:29:29,443 [edward_slingerland]: chemicals in our body and so this has to 782 00:29:29,490 --> 00:29:29,670 [zaza]: oh 783 00:29:29,503 --> 00:29:37,135 [edward_slingerland]: do with the second main function of alcohol which is to enhance social bond we 784 00:29:37,255 --> 00:29:44,437 [edward_slingerland]: have you know we're primates but we cooperate on a scale and with an intensity 785 00:29:45,399 --> 00:29:50,247 [edward_slingerland]: that looks a lot more like social insects than chibanzi you know if you look 786 00:29:50,287 --> 00:29:54,494 [edward_slingerland]: at humans you know in a ritual or an army going to war we look 787 00:29:54,554 --> 00:29:59,180 [edward_slingerland]: like ants bees we don't look like two pansies it's a bit of a mystery 788 00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:00,742 [edward_slingerland]: how we pull off that co 789 00:30:00,822 --> 00:30:00,964 [zaza]: oh 790 00:30:00,842 --> 00:30:04,347 [edward_slingerland]: operation at i argue in the book is one of the ways we do it 791 00:30:04,467 --> 00:30:10,898 [edward_slingerland]: is alcohol if i'm going to try to forge a bond were a bunch of 792 00:30:10,958 --> 00:30:14,023 [edward_slingerland]: people and we need to form an army unit and we need to learn to 793 00:30:14,083 --> 00:30:18,050 [edward_slingerland]: cooper then get along and trust one another the best way to do it is 794 00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:22,067 [edward_slingerland]: to have us sit down and drink together because when you you drink with someone 795 00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:28,758 [edward_slingerland]: in a way it's a truth serum so you know the greek greeks and romans 796 00:30:28,898 --> 00:30:32,787 [edward_slingerland]: believe you know in vino veteritas there's there's truth wine 797 00:30:32,721 --> 00:30:33,387 [zaza]: truth and wine 798 00:30:34,474 --> 00:30:39,358 [edward_slingerland]: you have trouble lying or eating so if i want to if i want to 799 00:30:39,381 --> 00:30:39,401 [zaza]: a 800 00:30:40,139 --> 00:30:43,742 [edward_slingerland]: fool you into thinking that i really like you and i'm a good friend and 801 00:30:43,782 --> 00:30:48,169 [edward_slingerland]: you can trust me i need my p f c to be in top form 802 00:30:48,690 --> 00:30:54,306 [edward_slingerland]: because i have to be keeping track simultaneously of what i'm telling you is the 803 00:30:54,367 --> 00:31:00,074 [edward_slingerland]: truth which is false um m and what's true i know it's true i have 804 00:31:00,114 --> 00:31:06,931 [edward_slingerland]: to keep those separate i need to any emotional reactions or facial expressions that have 805 00:31:06,991 --> 00:31:10,537 [edward_slingerland]: to do with what i i know it's true but it's not what i'm telling 806 00:31:10,577 --> 00:31:14,924 [edward_slingerland]: you i have to be able to press and keep those from leaking out into 807 00:31:15,005 --> 00:31:15,445 [edward_slingerland]: my face 808 00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:17,170 [zaza]: oh 809 00:31:17,288 --> 00:31:24,079 [edward_slingerland]: it's a very lying cheating faking is a very p f c heavy operation and 810 00:31:24,219 --> 00:31:26,322 [edward_slingerland]: so if i have any concerns 811 00:31:26,130 --> 00:31:26,151 [zaza]: i 812 00:31:26,382 --> 00:31:31,370 [edward_slingerland]: about you sitting down and having a couple of shots or drinking some wine first 813 00:31:32,492 --> 00:31:36,538 [edward_slingerland]: m it's a bit i compare to shaking hands when you meet someone you're showing 814 00:31:36,619 --> 00:31:41,797 [edward_slingerland]: that you don't have a weapon in your dominant hand drinking before you start talking 815 00:31:41,837 --> 00:31:45,824 [edward_slingerland]: about a treaty or a contract or something is like taking your p f c 816 00:31:46,044 --> 00:31:49,991 [edward_slingerland]: out and putting on the table you're saying you now i'm cogatively just armed so 817 00:31:50,111 --> 00:31:50,972 [edward_slingerland]: you can trust what i'm 818 00:31:50,970 --> 00:31:51,960 [zaza]: yeah 819 00:31:51,032 --> 00:31:51,273 [edward_slingerland]: saying 820 00:31:52,344 --> 00:31:52,447 [zaza]: ah 821 00:31:52,675 --> 00:31:56,902 [edward_slingerland]: plus at the same time it's making me less likely to want to cheat or 822 00:31:57,022 --> 00:32:02,431 [edward_slingerland]: fake or or defect in our relationship because i'm feeling better about you and i'm 823 00:32:02,472 --> 00:32:08,612 [edward_slingerland]: feeling better about myself pro social chemicals are being are flooding my brain so it's 824 00:32:08,672 --> 00:32:16,148 [edward_slingerland]: a way to kind of get otherwise suspicious selfish primates trust one another and to 825 00:32:16,248 --> 00:32:18,554 [edward_slingerland]: feel bonded to one another and 826 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:18,801 [zaza]: oh 827 00:32:18,614 --> 00:32:21,819 [edward_slingerland]: i look at some experimental evidence that this is actually the case with people 828 00:32:21,780 --> 00:32:21,882 [zaza]: ye 829 00:32:21,919 --> 00:32:28,370 [edward_slingerland]: if you give them alcohol as opposed to a placebo they report feeling bonded to 830 00:32:28,530 --> 00:32:32,368 [edward_slingerland]: other people more than they feel better about them they're more likely to cooperate 831 00:32:34,790 --> 00:32:39,718 [zaza]: so i was just wondering when while you were talking if getting slashed 832 00:32:39,574 --> 00:32:39,735 [edward_slingerland]: ah 833 00:32:39,819 --> 00:32:44,086 [zaza]: together would be a good way to flush out potential spies you know if 834 00:32:44,094 --> 00:32:44,254 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 835 00:32:44,166 --> 00:32:44,406 [zaza]: they're 836 00:32:44,775 --> 00:32:45,196 [edward_slingerland]: absolutely 837 00:32:44,947 --> 00:32:49,399 [zaza]: pre front or cortex stops working and that would just be like hey listen i'm 838 00:32:49,459 --> 00:32:51,044 [zaza]: a spy i can't lie 839 00:32:51,105 --> 00:32:51,286 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 840 00:32:51,124 --> 00:32:51,987 [zaza]: to you i'm drunk 841 00:32:52,788 --> 00:32:55,893 [edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah they probably wouldn't necessarily do that but they 842 00:32:56,700 --> 00:32:56,861 [zaza]: yeah 843 00:32:56,936 --> 00:32:59,602 [edward_slingerland]: they'd slip up right you'd be better 844 00:32:59,411 --> 00:32:59,613 [zaza]: right 845 00:32:59,742 --> 00:33:02,208 [edward_slingerland]: able to tell so 846 00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:02,511 [zaza]: oh 847 00:33:02,388 --> 00:33:03,310 [edward_slingerland]: humans you know we 848 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:04,904 [zaza]: oh 849 00:33:05,184 --> 00:33:11,224 [edward_slingerland]: we're very good at faking things and were also very good at reading faking in 850 00:33:11,324 --> 00:33:15,729 [edward_slingerland]: people's face is their tone of voice and things like that so i argue in 851 00:33:15,790 --> 00:33:16,070 [edward_slingerland]: the book 852 00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:17,880 [zaza]: yeah 853 00:33:16,270 --> 00:33:23,316 [edward_slingerland]: or our ability to detect lies our ability to lie are so amazing that they've 854 00:33:23,376 --> 00:33:27,241 [edward_slingerland]: got to be the result of kind of runaway selection so this is when there's 855 00:33:27,281 --> 00:33:35,256 [edward_slingerland]: an evolutionary arms race and he developed these abilities that are stupidly sophisticated they're needlessly 856 00:33:35,937 --> 00:33:42,928 [edward_slingerland]: powerful so a good example of this is is gazelles and lions or the das 857 00:33:43,870 --> 00:33:48,940 [edward_slingerland]: so you have credit or prey relationship or the prey gets faster the pressure has 858 00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:53,959 [edward_slingerland]: to get faster and soon you get to a point where they're both stupidly fast 859 00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:54,881 [edward_slingerland]: like there's no reason 860 00:33:54,810 --> 00:33:55,030 [zaza]: yeah 861 00:33:55,021 --> 00:33:57,746 [edward_slingerland]: they have to be that fast except for the fact that something is chasing them 862 00:33:57,806 --> 00:34:01,833 [edward_slingerland]: or they're chasing something so they have to keep up in this arms race i 863 00:34:01,873 --> 00:34:07,526 [edward_slingerland]: think that's what happen with human ability to detect and fake emotions and sincerity and 864 00:34:07,586 --> 00:34:13,831 [edward_slingerland]: things like that so we're constantly worried about people who are faking commitment to us 865 00:34:14,392 --> 00:34:17,887 [edward_slingerland]: in order to take advantage of us and we use 866 00:34:17,790 --> 00:34:18,450 [zaza]: yeah 867 00:34:17,987 --> 00:34:23,041 [edward_slingerland]: things like facial expressions tone of voice to figure out who's sincere and who is 868 00:34:23,141 --> 00:34:24,774 [edward_slingerland]: not in 869 00:34:24,714 --> 00:34:24,755 [zaza]: m 870 00:34:24,834 --> 00:34:31,926 [edward_slingerland]: this arms race cultures are not neutral bystanders cultures want the cheater detectors to win 871 00:34:32,587 --> 00:34:36,493 [edward_slingerland]: because they want us to be able to cooperate and so that's alcohol is a 872 00:34:36,513 --> 00:34:37,195 [edward_slingerland]: way it kind of 873 00:34:37,473 --> 00:34:37,695 [zaza]: right 874 00:34:38,096 --> 00:34:41,602 [edward_slingerland]: um if you want to think about a chita and a gazelle it's like giving 875 00:34:41,682 --> 00:34:45,228 [edward_slingerland]: the chita a motorcycle something to 876 00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:45,271 [zaza]: ah 877 00:34:45,288 --> 00:34:50,401 [edward_slingerland]: make it faster and to slow the gazelle down wants the it wants the cheater 878 00:34:50,441 --> 00:34:55,618 [edward_slingerland]: detectors to win and alcohols way to do that so that's precisely why i give 879 00:34:55,838 --> 00:35:03,204 [edward_slingerland]: i talk about how alcohol is used in business meetings is used treaty meetings there's 880 00:35:03,304 --> 00:35:10,015 [edward_slingerland]: a anecdote that stolen supposedly if he suspected one of his underlings of maybe dis 881 00:35:10,376 --> 00:35:16,287 [edward_slingerland]: being disloyal would bring them to his health and make them drink a maka and 882 00:35:16,368 --> 00:35:18,895 [edward_slingerland]: he just watched them and you know 883 00:35:18,940 --> 00:35:18,981 [zaza]: i 884 00:35:19,016 --> 00:35:19,076 [edward_slingerland]: he 885 00:35:19,081 --> 00:35:19,221 [zaza]: just 886 00:35:19,136 --> 00:35:19,277 [edward_slingerland]: was 887 00:35:19,301 --> 00:35:19,461 [zaza]: read 888 00:35:19,417 --> 00:35:19,638 [edward_slingerland]: he was 889 00:35:19,562 --> 00:35:19,742 [zaza]: his 890 00:35:19,738 --> 00:35:20,300 [edward_slingerland]: downright going 891 00:35:20,163 --> 00:35:20,303 [zaza]: his 892 00:35:20,340 --> 00:35:20,380 [edward_slingerland]: to 893 00:35:20,383 --> 00:35:20,964 [zaza]: biography 894 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:20,721 [edward_slingerland]: to p f 895 00:35:21,505 --> 00:35:21,585 [zaza]: and 896 00:35:21,834 --> 00:35:22,637 [edward_slingerland]: oh 897 00:35:22,066 --> 00:35:24,830 [zaza]: yeah and there they claim that he organized 898 00:35:24,594 --> 00:35:24,838 [edward_slingerland]: oh 899 00:35:24,890 --> 00:35:27,415 [zaza]: these crazy drinking marathons 900 00:35:26,896 --> 00:35:26,977 [edward_slingerland]: ah 901 00:35:28,196 --> 00:35:28,777 [zaza]: with all 902 00:35:28,810 --> 00:35:29,424 [edward_slingerland]: hm 903 00:35:28,837 --> 00:35:32,062 [zaza]: of his underlings he was just observing them you know 904 00:35:32,444 --> 00:35:33,026 [edward_slingerland]: but he wouldn't 905 00:35:32,924 --> 00:35:33,064 [zaza]: in a 906 00:35:33,106 --> 00:35:33,367 [edward_slingerland]: drink 907 00:35:33,144 --> 00:35:33,745 [zaza]: sadistic 908 00:35:33,528 --> 00:35:33,969 [edward_slingerland]: right so 909 00:35:33,905 --> 00:35:35,248 [zaza]: kind of way no he wouldn't drink 910 00:35:35,254 --> 00:35:35,414 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 911 00:35:35,448 --> 00:35:35,949 [zaza]: yeah right 912 00:35:36,015 --> 00:35:36,195 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 913 00:35:36,109 --> 00:35:36,470 [zaza]: he was just 914 00:35:36,375 --> 00:35:36,496 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 915 00:35:36,530 --> 00:35:36,950 [zaza]: observing 916 00:35:36,576 --> 00:35:37,137 [edward_slingerland]: he just watched 917 00:35:36,991 --> 00:35:37,071 [zaza]: the 918 00:35:37,197 --> 00:35:37,357 [edward_slingerland]: them 919 00:35:37,211 --> 00:35:37,531 [zaza]: making 920 00:35:37,457 --> 00:35:37,658 [edward_slingerland]: drink 921 00:35:37,692 --> 00:35:39,354 [zaza]: fools out of themselves yeah exactly 922 00:35:40,923 --> 00:35:41,023 [edward_slingerland]: and 923 00:35:40,997 --> 00:35:41,238 [zaza]: right 924 00:35:41,083 --> 00:35:43,427 [edward_slingerland]: saying revealing things right so that's that's 925 00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:43,580 [zaza]: oh 926 00:35:43,467 --> 00:35:47,153 [edward_slingerland]: a really good example of how you can you can use this human 927 00:35:47,349 --> 00:35:47,549 [zaza]: yes 928 00:35:47,394 --> 00:35:53,511 [edward_slingerland]: use it to gain social what they view is genuine social information about other 929 00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:53,631 [zaza]: yeah 930 00:35:53,551 --> 00:35:53,792 [edward_slingerland]: people 931 00:35:56,704 --> 00:35:56,945 [zaza]: maybe 932 00:35:57,024 --> 00:35:59,484 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 933 00:35:57,086 --> 00:36:00,982 [zaza]: this is a cultural thing but or a thing of the times but why do 934 00:36:01,042 --> 00:36:02,505 [zaza]: we suddenly hear alarm bells 935 00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:02,317 [edward_slingerland]: ah 936 00:36:02,865 --> 00:36:06,231 [zaza]: ringing when we hear of people who have a drink alone 937 00:36:06,264 --> 00:36:06,645 [edward_slingerland]: oh 938 00:36:06,812 --> 00:36:10,358 [zaza]: like it's going to be completely okay with everybody if i drink a a leader 939 00:36:10,538 --> 00:36:13,924 [zaza]: of yegermice on a night out with my mates but 940 00:36:14,017 --> 00:36:14,198 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 941 00:36:14,024 --> 00:36:17,130 [zaza]: if somebody heard that i had a beer while i was chilling at home watching 942 00:36:17,691 --> 00:36:22,600 [zaza]: love is blind they would immediately think i have a bit of a problem not 943 00:36:22,660 --> 00:36:23,020 [zaza]: that i ever 944 00:36:23,077 --> 00:36:23,238 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 945 00:36:23,081 --> 00:36:24,243 [zaza]: do that you know i don't 946 00:36:24,685 --> 00:36:24,765 [edward_slingerland]: no 947 00:36:25,084 --> 00:36:25,184 [zaza]: but 948 00:36:25,086 --> 00:36:25,387 [edward_slingerland]: of course 949 00:36:25,224 --> 00:36:25,625 [zaza]: the double 950 00:36:25,507 --> 00:36:25,788 [edward_slingerland]: this is 951 00:36:25,745 --> 00:36:26,086 [zaza]: standard 952 00:36:25,989 --> 00:36:26,350 [edward_slingerland]: a friend 953 00:36:26,146 --> 00:36:26,687 [zaza]: is kind of real 954 00:36:26,951 --> 00:36:27,051 [edward_slingerland]: is 955 00:36:27,007 --> 00:36:27,167 [zaza]: not 956 00:36:27,112 --> 00:36:27,994 [edward_slingerland]: a friend you've heard of 957 00:36:27,989 --> 00:36:31,875 [zaza]: absolutely not it's absolutely this friend has a lot of problems 958 00:36:32,814 --> 00:36:32,996 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 959 00:36:32,837 --> 00:36:35,906 [zaza]: but yeah why why is that so why does it make us like per cup 960 00:36:36,227 --> 00:36:38,657 [zaza]: like really you had to be alone what are you okay 961 00:36:40,124 --> 00:36:45,171 [edward_slingerland]: because we have an intuitive sense that drinking alone is dangerous and so 962 00:36:46,890 --> 00:36:47,133 [zaza]: oh 963 00:36:47,414 --> 00:36:53,767 [edward_slingerland]: in the book i argued that alcohol has become unusually dangerous in the last couple 964 00:36:53,807 --> 00:36:58,073 [edward_slingerland]: of hundred years much more dangerous than it's been for most of our revolutionary history 965 00:36:59,244 --> 00:37:04,870 [edward_slingerland]: and the two dangers are our distillation and isolation so so the first problem is 966 00:37:04,930 --> 00:37:07,613 [edward_slingerland]: we have yegermister now right we have access to 967 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:08,020 [zaza]: yeah 968 00:37:08,584 --> 00:37:09,886 [edward_slingerland]: distilled liquors which 969 00:37:09,966 --> 00:37:10,147 [zaza]: yeah 970 00:37:10,347 --> 00:37:12,009 [edward_slingerland]: in europe are very recent 971 00:37:11,730 --> 00:37:11,972 [zaza]: yeah 972 00:37:12,170 --> 00:37:16,677 [edward_slingerland]: invention we didn't have and this was a surprise to when i was doing the 973 00:37:16,737 --> 00:37:21,064 [edward_slingerland]: research of the book we didn't really have access to distilled or s on a 974 00:37:21,125 --> 00:37:25,913 [edward_slingerland]: large scale until the sixteen hundred seventeen hundred so that is a blink of an 975 00:37:26,033 --> 00:37:28,717 [edward_slingerland]: eye in the story that i'm telling um 976 00:37:28,590 --> 00:37:28,610 [zaza]: m 977 00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:36,989 [edward_slingerland]: so it's recent distilled liquors essentially alcohol has always come with a safety feature kind 978 00:37:37,029 --> 00:37:42,376 [edward_slingerland]: of built in safety feature which is that natural fermentation can only get to a 979 00:37:42,416 --> 00:37:49,228 [edward_slingerland]: certain level before us they shut themselves down and we've been ruthlessly pushing east to 980 00:37:49,288 --> 00:37:52,333 [edward_slingerland]: get more and more resistant donga that we can make stronger 981 00:37:52,011 --> 00:37:52,113 [zaza]: oh 982 00:37:52,393 --> 00:37:59,084 [edward_slingerland]: and stronger beaters and wines but it tops out pretty low so the strongest naturally 983 00:37:59,185 --> 00:38:05,015 [edward_slingerland]: fermented wine that you can make is like an australian tara come in at like 984 00:38:05,155 --> 00:38:11,205 [edward_slingerland]: sixteen seventeen per cent a b v m and historically that's wildly strong i mean 985 00:38:11,245 --> 00:38:15,392 [edward_slingerland]: we were for most of our history we've been drinking two to three per cent 986 00:38:15,713 --> 00:38:20,461 [edward_slingerland]: a v v of alcohol by volume beers and then fruit fruit wines 987 00:38:20,372 --> 00:38:20,454 [zaza]: at 988 00:38:20,481 --> 00:38:21,183 [edward_slingerland]: were probably a little 989 00:38:21,210 --> 00:38:21,373 [zaza]: oh 990 00:38:21,223 --> 00:38:25,916 [edward_slingerland]: bit stronger but not much more when you invent distillation 991 00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:25,702 [zaza]: oh 992 00:38:26,016 --> 00:38:28,580 [edward_slingerland]: you suddenly completely blow away that 993 00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:29,370 [zaza]: yeah 994 00:38:28,820 --> 00:38:35,231 [edward_slingerland]: safety feature because now you can produce a liquid that's like ninety percent abvvodcais goin 995 00:38:35,351 --> 00:38:42,014 [edward_slingerland]: hit the nineties um and we're just not our bodies are not equipped deal with 996 00:38:42,175 --> 00:38:46,780 [edward_slingerland]: ethan all hitting our brain that quickly so if you're drinking 997 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:46,700 [zaza]: m 998 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,745 [edward_slingerland]: at two to three per cent beer you can drink all day long literally and 999 00:38:52,906 --> 00:38:53,166 [edward_slingerland]: never 1000 00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:53,442 [zaza]: yeah 1001 00:38:53,246 --> 00:38:57,533 [edward_slingerland]: really get beyond about point o eight plod alcohol content which is kind of the 1002 00:38:57,553 --> 00:39:04,415 [edward_slingerland]: little buzz but not dangerously so if you have access to yegermister vaca you can 1003 00:39:04,515 --> 00:39:11,037 [edward_slingerland]: blow right past point of eight and get into like passing out dangerous territory in 1004 00:39:11,798 --> 00:39:17,087 [edward_slingerland]: fifteen minutes right it's just so we have this really really strong form of alcohol 1005 00:39:17,167 --> 00:39:23,846 [edward_slingerland]: now which we never had before and then the second problem its isolation so noticing 1006 00:39:23,886 --> 00:39:27,293 [edward_slingerland]: that that passage from ancient greece that you read 1007 00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:28,931 [zaza]: yeah 1008 00:39:28,956 --> 00:39:31,802 [edward_slingerland]: the wise person when they reach a certain level of drinking 1009 00:39:32,422 --> 00:39:32,887 [zaza]: yeah i think 1010 00:39:32,864 --> 00:39:33,065 [edward_slingerland]: books 1011 00:39:32,927 --> 00:39:33,291 [zaza]: it's four 1012 00:39:33,125 --> 00:39:40,347 [edward_slingerland]: says the passage as yeah for they say you go home why is that important 1013 00:39:41,089 --> 00:39:45,185 [edward_slingerland]: because you don't have more alcohol at home people don't drink alone 1014 00:39:45,060 --> 00:39:45,810 [zaza]: yeah 1015 00:39:45,245 --> 00:39:48,029 [edward_slingerland]: at home in traditional societies um 1016 00:39:48,090 --> 00:39:48,271 [zaza]: right 1017 00:39:48,629 --> 00:39:55,288 [edward_slingerland]: and having private access to alcohol is a very new and weird thing for humans 1018 00:39:55,669 --> 00:39:56,050 [edward_slingerland]: and almost 1019 00:39:56,073 --> 00:39:56,155 [zaza]: oh 1020 00:39:56,190 --> 00:40:03,015 [edward_slingerland]: every culture that i know about drinking is social and public and you don't do 1021 00:40:03,075 --> 00:40:09,104 [edward_slingerland]: it alone you don't have access to alcohol outside of a social situation and so 1022 00:40:09,184 --> 00:40:16,436 [edward_slingerland]: for the ancient greeks they had these wine gatherings these wine parties the symposium where 1023 00:40:16,576 --> 00:40:18,079 [edward_slingerland]: there was you know you would gather 1024 00:40:17,970 --> 00:40:18,212 [zaza]: yes 1025 00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:23,909 [edward_slingerland]: at some one's house the imposiarc the person in charge of the ceremony the party 1026 00:40:24,670 --> 00:40:29,057 [edward_slingerland]: would be in charge of passing around the wine they would decide how much water 1027 00:40:29,117 --> 00:40:34,195 [edward_slingerland]: it down the greeks used to water their wine down and so they controlled the 1028 00:40:34,236 --> 00:40:38,817 [edward_slingerland]: drinking and if things started to get out of hand they would wait and not 1029 00:40:38,918 --> 00:40:41,560 [edward_slingerland]: pass the line around for a bit or they would put more water in it 1030 00:40:41,741 --> 00:40:41,881 [edward_slingerland]: right 1031 00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:42,498 [zaza]: yeah 1032 00:40:42,041 --> 00:40:43,503 [edward_slingerland]: they could control the amount you 1033 00:40:43,527 --> 00:40:43,548 [zaza]: a 1034 00:40:43,543 --> 00:40:49,912 [edward_slingerland]: drink um in ancient china and even down to a traditional banquet in china today 1035 00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:51,050 [zaza]: m 1036 00:40:51,254 --> 00:40:52,986 [edward_slingerland]: you don't drink unless somebody makes 1037 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:53,121 [zaza]: yeah 1038 00:40:53,067 --> 00:40:56,615 [edward_slingerland]: a toast don't just sit there drinking as much as you want you have a 1039 00:40:56,676 --> 00:41:00,767 [edward_slingerland]: cup at your side and it sits there until some one makes a toast and 1040 00:41:00,787 --> 00:41:03,591 [edward_slingerland]: then you do a toast and then someone re fails it for you and you 1041 00:41:03,651 --> 00:41:04,212 [edward_slingerland]: wait for the next 1042 00:41:04,210 --> 00:41:04,371 [zaza]: okay 1043 00:41:04,272 --> 00:41:04,472 [edward_slingerland]: toast 1044 00:41:04,411 --> 00:41:04,672 [zaza]: you don't 1045 00:41:04,532 --> 00:41:04,913 [edward_slingerland]: to happen 1046 00:41:04,733 --> 00:41:06,562 [zaza]: just grab the bottle and help yourself 1047 00:41:06,804 --> 00:41:10,550 [edward_slingerland]: yeah you don't help yourself and so that controls the pace of drinking 1048 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:11,523 [zaza]: oh 1049 00:41:11,231 --> 00:41:15,919 [edward_slingerland]: so humans have all these ways both formal you know these are kind of more 1050 00:41:16,039 --> 00:41:21,100 [edward_slingerland]: formal obvious rituals but even if you about going to the pub with your friends 1051 00:41:22,658 --> 00:41:24,970 [edward_slingerland]: typically you order in rounds 1052 00:41:24,891 --> 00:41:24,972 [zaza]: ah 1053 00:41:25,834 --> 00:41:30,438 [edward_slingerland]: so if you have drinking problem and you down your beer immediately and you want 1054 00:41:30,478 --> 00:41:34,401 [edward_slingerland]: another one you have to wait until i'm done with mine and then we can 1055 00:41:34,481 --> 00:41:35,242 [edward_slingerland]: order another round 1056 00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:37,188 [zaza]: oh 1057 00:41:37,364 --> 00:41:42,532 [edward_slingerland]: if you're drinking too much the bar tender or the cocktail server may not make 1058 00:41:42,612 --> 00:41:45,417 [edward_slingerland]: eye contact with you they may walk by and 1059 00:41:45,390 --> 00:41:45,691 [zaza]: oh 1060 00:41:45,477 --> 00:41:48,763 [edward_slingerland]: not fill your drink order because they think you had too much we have all 1061 00:41:48,843 --> 00:41:50,507 [edward_slingerland]: these ways is both formal 1062 00:41:50,141 --> 00:41:50,303 [zaza]: yes 1063 00:41:50,768 --> 00:41:55,780 [edward_slingerland]: and informal ways regulating each other's drinking when we're drinking together 1064 00:41:56,349 --> 00:41:56,370 [zaza]: m 1065 00:41:56,954 --> 00:42:02,304 [edward_slingerland]: i talk about this anthropologist who studied drinking and i think it was norway and 1066 00:42:02,484 --> 00:42:07,693 [edward_slingerland]: in the most informal situation you can imagine which is a house party so just 1067 00:42:08,074 --> 00:42:09,296 [edward_slingerland]: kids teen agers 1068 00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:09,094 [zaza]: yeah 1069 00:42:09,596 --> 00:42:12,421 [edward_slingerland]: going to somebody's house and getting drunk but 1070 00:42:12,460 --> 00:42:12,480 [zaza]: i 1071 00:42:12,461 --> 00:42:12,541 [edward_slingerland]: the 1072 00:42:12,540 --> 00:42:12,661 [zaza]: have 1073 00:42:12,601 --> 00:42:13,082 [edward_slingerland]: anthropology 1074 00:42:12,701 --> 00:42:13,262 [zaza]: some horrible 1075 00:42:13,102 --> 00:42:13,523 [edward_slingerland]: is noted 1076 00:42:13,322 --> 00:42:15,366 [zaza]: memories of that please continue 1077 00:42:15,604 --> 00:42:20,711 [edward_slingerland]: okay but the anthea just pointed out at least in norway there was a very 1078 00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:21,010 [zaza]: yeah 1079 00:42:20,851 --> 00:42:23,329 [edward_slingerland]: strong norm you don't 1080 00:42:23,879 --> 00:42:24,264 [zaza]: yeah oh 1081 00:42:24,544 --> 00:42:25,686 [edward_slingerland]: throw away your recycle 1082 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:25,701 [zaza]: oh 1083 00:42:25,786 --> 00:42:29,633 [edward_slingerland]: your bottles if you finish a bottle it goes next to you at your seat 1084 00:42:30,974 --> 00:42:34,357 [edward_slingerland]: it's like a visible sign of how much you've drunk and everyone can see it 1085 00:42:34,777 --> 00:42:39,802 [edward_slingerland]: and so there's a way of signaling how much you've had to drink to other 1086 00:42:39,903 --> 00:42:45,436 [edward_slingerland]: people it's going to be at least subconsciously restraining you a bit we have all 1087 00:42:45,330 --> 00:42:45,634 [zaza]: oh 1088 00:42:45,496 --> 00:42:46,377 [edward_slingerland]: these subtle cues 1089 00:42:46,313 --> 00:42:46,333 [zaza]: a 1090 00:42:46,477 --> 00:42:51,245 [edward_slingerland]: we use you know over the dinner table where you know whatever your you know 1091 00:42:51,325 --> 00:42:55,012 [edward_slingerland]: you're drinking at your girl friend's house or something and you go to reach for 1092 00:42:55,052 --> 00:42:58,836 [edward_slingerland]: the wine and pour your s another glass and her mom gives you a little 1093 00:42:58,896 --> 00:43:03,921 [edward_slingerland]: look like you really need that right we have all these ways we we we 1094 00:43:04,181 --> 00:43:04,982 [edward_slingerland]: moderate each other 1095 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:05,970 [zaza]: oh 1096 00:43:05,402 --> 00:43:10,795 [edward_slingerland]: when we're in person all of that goes out the door we have when you 1097 00:43:10,835 --> 00:43:14,120 [edward_slingerland]: can sit alone in your apartment in front of the t v and you have 1098 00:43:14,741 --> 00:43:17,125 [edward_slingerland]: endless supply of vodka or miser 1099 00:43:17,162 --> 00:43:17,387 [zaza]: right 1100 00:43:17,386 --> 00:43:23,457 [edward_slingerland]: beer um so drinking alone is really dain or as we're not designed to do 1101 00:43:23,557 --> 00:43:28,397 [edward_slingerland]: it we've we've never done it historically and for a really good reason and it's 1102 00:43:28,477 --> 00:43:34,128 [edward_slingerland]: because as individuals it's very difficult to moderate our drinking when we're doing it alone 1103 00:43:35,089 --> 00:43:42,365 [edward_slingerland]: and you see the extreme form of this happened in the pandemic so it's an 1104 00:43:42,426 --> 00:43:47,852 [edward_slingerland]: interesting natural experiment that you can never get permission to do but it just happened 1105 00:43:49,494 --> 00:43:53,271 [edward_slingerland]: where all of a sudden every you know government said you have to stay home 1106 00:43:53,561 --> 00:43:53,722 [zaza]: yeah 1107 00:43:54,044 --> 00:43:58,658 [edward_slingerland]: you can't socialize you can have as much alcohol delivered to your house as you 1108 00:43:58,718 --> 00:44:00,300 [edward_slingerland]: want so good luck 1109 00:44:00,450 --> 00:44:00,650 [zaza]: yeah 1110 00:44:01,683 --> 00:44:04,587 [edward_slingerland]: and it was a disaster like drinking there's there's now 1111 00:44:04,509 --> 00:44:04,650 [zaza]: right 1112 00:44:04,868 --> 00:44:08,113 [edward_slingerland]: you know we're far enough out of lock downs now that there's good date on 1113 00:44:08,996 --> 00:44:10,079 [edward_slingerland]: that problem drinking 1114 00:44:09,990 --> 00:44:10,192 [zaza]: okay 1115 00:44:10,179 --> 00:44:13,509 [edward_slingerland]: went through the roof during the pandemic alcoholism 1116 00:44:13,241 --> 00:44:13,666 [zaza]: makes sense 1117 00:44:13,609 --> 00:44:18,985 [edward_slingerland]: rates went way up because you know it's a what happens when you have access 1118 00:44:19,025 --> 00:44:27,894 [edward_slingerland]: to alcohol but not social constraints it gets really bad so that's you know it's 1119 00:44:27,934 --> 00:44:31,658 [edward_slingerland]: a real danger drinking alone so that's why people when you say yeah you know 1120 00:44:31,938 --> 00:44:32,318 [edward_slingerland]: i was home 1121 00:44:32,250 --> 00:44:32,910 [zaza]: oh 1122 00:44:32,358 --> 00:44:36,143 [edward_slingerland]: alone drinking people worry about it it's because we have this intuitive sense 1123 00:44:35,889 --> 00:44:36,281 [zaza]: m my 1124 00:44:36,303 --> 00:44:36,503 [edward_slingerland]: that 1125 00:44:36,361 --> 00:44:37,567 [zaza]: friend but yeah 1126 00:44:37,965 --> 00:44:42,053 [edward_slingerland]: yeah your friend whatever this guy who has a problem with masturbation 1127 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,280 [zaza]: yeah 1128 00:44:42,173 --> 00:44:44,377 [edward_slingerland]: in twinkles and yeah so 1129 00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:46,590 [zaza]: yeah 1130 00:44:45,799 --> 00:44:47,543 [edward_slingerland]: we know intuitively that 1131 00:44:48,471 --> 00:44:48,632 [zaza]: oh 1132 00:44:48,594 --> 00:44:58,208 [edward_slingerland]: drinking socially safer it's more normal and we worry about people who are turning to 1133 00:44:58,329 --> 00:44:59,552 [edward_slingerland]: alcohol when they're alone 1134 00:45:02,971 --> 00:45:03,873 [zaza]: is there any connection 1135 00:45:03,954 --> 00:45:04,276 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1136 00:45:04,053 --> 00:45:07,018 [zaza]: between colder places and alcohol consumption i'm 1137 00:45:06,924 --> 00:45:08,754 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1138 00:45:07,038 --> 00:45:09,622 [zaza]: from eastern europe originally so i'm trying to find any 1139 00:45:09,554 --> 00:45:09,698 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1140 00:45:09,703 --> 00:45:13,349 [zaza]: sort of justification for our general affinity 1141 00:45:12,811 --> 00:45:13,012 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1142 00:45:13,569 --> 00:45:14,491 [zaza]: to the i mean 1143 00:45:15,414 --> 00:45:15,674 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1144 00:45:15,432 --> 00:45:22,003 [zaza]: now that you are saying you know explaining all of these kind of social break 1145 00:45:22,123 --> 00:45:22,584 [zaza]: systems 1146 00:45:22,284 --> 00:45:22,530 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1147 00:45:22,744 --> 00:45:25,809 [zaza]: you know i don't think at least when i was younger we didn't have many 1148 00:45:25,664 --> 00:45:25,725 [edward_slingerland]: ah 1149 00:45:25,930 --> 00:45:27,432 [zaza]: of those that's why 1150 00:45:27,353 --> 00:45:27,474 [edward_slingerland]: no 1151 00:45:28,274 --> 00:45:31,880 [zaza]: i remember my ten years with a bit of horror like our idea of a 1152 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:33,382 [zaza]: good time was when you were 1153 00:45:33,354 --> 00:45:33,715 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1154 00:45:33,422 --> 00:45:38,431 [zaza]: sixteen or seventeen years old was to buy the cheapest you know four of booze 1155 00:45:38,491 --> 00:45:39,833 [zaza]: and then get absolutely 1156 00:45:39,353 --> 00:45:40,026 [edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah 1157 00:45:39,913 --> 00:45:41,436 [zaza]: annihilated every weekend 1158 00:45:41,664 --> 00:45:41,825 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1159 00:45:41,736 --> 00:45:46,464 [zaza]: it was almost a competition you know obligatory vomiting almost it was 1160 00:45:46,458 --> 00:45:46,598 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1161 00:45:46,524 --> 00:45:52,040 [zaza]: extremely funny if someone would wet themselves and stuff i'm surprised all of us are 1162 00:45:52,161 --> 00:45:55,151 [zaza]: still here i'm sure it's all got to do 1163 00:45:55,254 --> 00:45:56,136 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1164 00:45:55,271 --> 00:46:00,440 [zaza]: something with ten aged uns and you know being super self conscious and feeling awkward 1165 00:46:01,221 --> 00:46:02,704 [zaza]: all the time and an alcohol kind 1166 00:46:02,754 --> 00:46:02,974 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1167 00:46:02,764 --> 00:46:05,288 [zaza]: of forgets you i mean helps you 1168 00:46:05,218 --> 00:46:05,398 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1169 00:46:05,589 --> 00:46:09,660 [zaza]: forget about but still there's probably better ways for teen agers to deal with all 1170 00:46:09,701 --> 00:46:11,245 [zaza]: of that i wish we didn't do 1171 00:46:11,288 --> 00:46:11,468 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1172 00:46:11,305 --> 00:46:12,168 [zaza]: that to be honest 1173 00:46:13,051 --> 00:46:16,056 [edward_slingerland]: yeah not everyone does that so you come 1174 00:46:16,110 --> 00:46:16,312 [zaza]: oh 1175 00:46:16,196 --> 00:46:17,678 [edward_slingerland]: from a particularly unhealthy 1176 00:46:17,748 --> 00:46:17,850 [zaza]: yeah 1177 00:46:17,799 --> 00:46:20,423 [edward_slingerland]: drinking culture culture 1178 00:46:20,351 --> 00:46:20,512 [zaza]: why 1179 00:46:20,503 --> 00:46:20,904 [edward_slingerland]: matters 1180 00:46:20,592 --> 00:46:22,716 [zaza]: am i not surprised right 1181 00:46:22,567 --> 00:46:24,349 [edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah so that in the book 1182 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:24,421 [zaza]: yeah 1183 00:46:24,430 --> 00:46:30,079 [edward_slingerland]: i talk about what anthropol is called northern versus southern drinking cultures and they're talking 1184 00:46:30,099 --> 00:46:36,530 [edward_slingerland]: about europe but eastern europe is a northern culture in this sense and so northern 1185 00:46:36,570 --> 00:46:43,470 [edward_slingerland]: drinking cultures as you say about drinking to get drunk it's typically all men were 1186 00:46:43,550 --> 00:46:47,421 [edward_slingerland]: sometimes all women but it's not mixed groups it tends to be you know same 1187 00:46:47,541 --> 00:46:54,231 [edward_slingerland]: gender it's competitive you're kind of you're not cool if don't get really drunk you 1188 00:46:54,291 --> 00:46:57,296 [edward_slingerland]: have to get really drunk you're typically 1189 00:46:57,090 --> 00:46:57,400 [zaza]: oh 1190 00:46:57,376 --> 00:46:58,758 [edward_slingerland]: drinking distilled liquors 1191 00:46:58,560 --> 00:46:58,786 [zaza]: oh 1192 00:46:59,459 --> 00:47:01,161 [edward_slingerland]: the strongest kind of alcohol you can 1193 00:47:01,132 --> 00:47:01,273 [zaza]: yep 1194 00:47:01,201 --> 00:47:06,850 [edward_slingerland]: get your hands on it's not in the context of a meal or anything social 1195 00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:09,013 [edward_slingerland]: in that sense it's a drinking competition 1196 00:47:08,809 --> 00:47:08,991 [zaza]: nope 1197 00:47:09,815 --> 00:47:10,175 [edward_slingerland]: um 1198 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:11,244 [zaza]: oh 1199 00:47:11,017 --> 00:47:16,286 [edward_slingerland]: those are northern cultures it's forbidden to children in so then as soon as you 1200 00:47:16,326 --> 00:47:18,710 [edward_slingerland]: can get your hands on it as a teen ager you want to do it 1201 00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:20,533 [edward_slingerland]: because anything you're told is bad 1202 00:47:20,210 --> 00:47:20,372 [zaza]: right 1203 00:47:20,893 --> 00:47:25,080 [edward_slingerland]: that only grown ups can do you want to do as soon as possible so 1204 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:32,272 [edward_slingerland]: it's a kind of taboo substance um that leads to this kind of really unhealthy 1205 00:47:32,412 --> 00:47:38,222 [edward_slingerland]: drinking if you can contrast that with southern cultures so think of like italy or 1206 00:47:38,342 --> 00:47:40,635 [edward_slingerland]: spain and there 1207 00:47:41,340 --> 00:47:42,480 [zaza]: yeah 1208 00:47:41,516 --> 00:47:46,765 [edward_slingerland]: typically alcohol you tend to not drink very much distilled liquors you're drinking mostly beer 1209 00:47:46,825 --> 00:47:51,894 [edward_slingerland]: and wine you're drinking it always in the context of a meal so it's rare 1210 00:47:52,075 --> 00:47:59,767 [edward_slingerland]: the meal table lunch or dinner everyone's doing it kids parents grandparents 1211 00:47:59,970 --> 00:48:00,175 [zaza]: yes 1212 00:48:00,068 --> 00:48:03,974 [edward_slingerland]: everybody is at the dinner table everyone's drinking so the kids are drinking they're giving 1213 00:48:04,175 --> 00:48:06,999 [edward_slingerland]: wine water down you know just to feel like the 1214 00:48:07,492 --> 00:48:07,593 [zaza]: ah 1215 00:48:08,041 --> 00:48:16,454 [edward_slingerland]: the group drinking to the point of becoming visibly drunk it's shameful something a grown 1216 00:48:16,534 --> 00:48:19,357 [edward_slingerland]: up doesn't do so you you 1217 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:20,670 [zaza]: yeah 1218 00:48:20,177 --> 00:48:25,402 [edward_slingerland]: restrain yourself and you're helped to restrain yourself because you're drinking weaker forms of alcohol 1219 00:48:25,502 --> 00:48:29,535 [edward_slingerland]: you're doing it with food and the other thing is you don't drink away 1220 00:48:29,463 --> 00:48:29,483 [zaza]: i 1221 00:48:29,616 --> 00:48:35,600 [edward_slingerland]: from the meal table so i can remember that my x wife is half italian 1222 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:35,821 [edward_slingerland]: and we 1223 00:48:35,790 --> 00:48:36,660 [zaza]: yeah 1224 00:48:35,921 --> 00:48:38,565 [edward_slingerland]: spent a lot of time in italy and 1225 00:48:38,643 --> 00:48:38,664 [zaza]: a 1226 00:48:38,645 --> 00:48:43,553 [edward_slingerland]: my first time visiting her family in italy that his wonderful meal with is amazing 1227 00:48:43,614 --> 00:48:45,697 [edward_slingerland]: italian wine i will have italian wine 1228 00:48:45,581 --> 00:48:45,742 [zaza]: yeah 1229 00:48:45,997 --> 00:48:49,844 [edward_slingerland]: much better than anything i could get in canada and so we finished dinner and 1230 00:48:49,904 --> 00:48:52,168 [edward_slingerland]: i poured myself in a glass to take up 1231 00:48:52,170 --> 00:48:52,830 [zaza]: yeah 1232 00:48:52,248 --> 00:48:55,533 [edward_slingerland]: to my room because i wanted to take notes on it and really favor ite 1233 00:48:56,174 --> 00:49:00,060 [edward_slingerland]: i remember pouring myself another glass and standing up from the table and walking away 1234 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,988 [edward_slingerland]: with it and everyone looking at me like the fur you doing like you what 1235 00:49:05,028 --> 00:49:05,890 [edward_slingerland]: are you doing are you an 1236 00:49:05,940 --> 00:49:06,870 [zaza]: yeah 1237 00:49:05,970 --> 00:49:09,959 [edward_slingerland]: alcoholic why would you take wine to your room like you don't drink away from 1238 00:49:09,999 --> 00:49:17,097 [edward_slingerland]: the meal table it's weird all of that all of that helps people to drink 1239 00:49:17,257 --> 00:49:24,750 [edward_slingerland]: more safely right and you see this in the statistics because it italy for instance 1240 00:49:24,830 --> 00:49:29,511 [edward_slingerland]: has the hot i think the highest part i put an alcohol consumption in europe 1241 00:49:30,354 --> 00:49:32,821 [edward_slingerland]: but they have i think the lowest alcohol 1242 00:49:32,730 --> 00:49:34,260 [zaza]: oh 1243 00:49:32,861 --> 00:49:35,747 [edward_slingerland]: is right so blot of alcohol drinking 1244 00:49:35,590 --> 00:49:35,752 [zaza]: yep 1245 00:49:35,987 --> 00:49:37,169 [edward_slingerland]: very low alcoholism 1246 00:49:36,750 --> 00:49:36,971 [zaza]: yeah 1247 00:49:38,191 --> 00:49:44,401 [edward_slingerland]: places like russia or the u k and order drinking cultures don't drink as much 1248 00:49:44,501 --> 00:49:48,049 [edward_slingerland]: per capita but they have hired they are very high alcohol is a level and 1249 00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:53,178 [edward_slingerland]: to me that suggests probably not actually we know it's not a genetic difference because 1250 00:49:53,218 --> 00:49:59,817 [edward_slingerland]: we have nice controlled experiments where we have italians in italy and italian americans so 1251 00:49:59,917 --> 00:50:07,029 [edward_slingerland]: genetically identical people in different cultures italians in italy have low alcoholism rates italian americans 1252 00:50:07,089 --> 00:50:09,673 [edward_slingerland]: have much higher alcoholism rates because they've adopted 1253 00:50:09,181 --> 00:50:09,201 [zaza]: m 1254 00:50:09,774 --> 00:50:16,147 [edward_slingerland]: this american drinking habits which come from the northern culture so so culture really matters 1255 00:50:16,488 --> 00:50:16,568 [edward_slingerland]: and 1256 00:50:17,267 --> 00:50:17,488 [zaza]: right 1257 00:50:17,490 --> 00:50:17,710 [edward_slingerland]: being 1258 00:50:17,649 --> 00:50:17,790 [zaza]: your 1259 00:50:17,770 --> 00:50:17,931 [edward_slingerland]: in the 1260 00:50:17,871 --> 00:50:18,334 [zaza]: description 1261 00:50:17,971 --> 00:50:18,492 [edward_slingerland]: right drinking 1262 00:50:18,435 --> 00:50:18,495 [zaza]: of 1263 00:50:18,572 --> 00:50:18,952 [edward_slingerland]: culture 1264 00:50:19,770 --> 00:50:21,411 [zaza]: yeah yeah your description of a 1265 00:50:21,414 --> 00:50:22,464 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1266 00:50:21,491 --> 00:50:25,715 [zaza]: northern drinking culture was kind of are in how accurate 1267 00:50:25,788 --> 00:50:25,929 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1268 00:50:25,815 --> 00:50:30,259 [zaza]: it was if i apply it to my you know my own history and culture 1269 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:31,461 [zaza]: um 1270 00:50:31,474 --> 00:50:31,634 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1271 00:50:31,541 --> 00:50:32,062 [zaza]: so i hope 1272 00:50:31,894 --> 00:50:32,555 [edward_slingerland]: and that's a really 1273 00:50:32,362 --> 00:50:32,503 [zaza]: my 1274 00:50:32,656 --> 00:50:33,277 [edward_slingerland]: dangerous way 1275 00:50:33,164 --> 00:50:33,444 [zaza]: eastern 1276 00:50:33,337 --> 00:50:33,717 [edward_slingerland]: to drink 1277 00:50:33,524 --> 00:50:38,413 [zaza]: european brothers and sisters are listening to us right now and that we start importing 1278 00:50:38,513 --> 00:50:40,156 [zaza]: something else than pizza from italy 1279 00:50:41,110 --> 00:50:41,751 [edward_slingerland]: yeah yeah 1280 00:50:43,630 --> 00:50:46,775 [zaza]: right yeah during your 1281 00:50:46,974 --> 00:50:47,196 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1282 00:50:48,037 --> 00:50:52,485 [zaza]: conversation that you had with joe rogan on his podcast you said that we really 1283 00:50:52,565 --> 00:50:52,785 [zaza]: like 1284 00:50:52,584 --> 00:50:52,884 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1285 00:50:52,845 --> 00:50:56,311 [zaza]: to get out of our own heads which i thought was really 1286 00:50:56,293 --> 00:50:56,334 [edward_slingerland]: h 1287 00:50:56,411 --> 00:50:57,633 [zaza]: interesting hence 1288 00:50:57,324 --> 00:50:57,524 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1289 00:50:57,954 --> 00:51:02,802 [zaza]: the use of intoxicants might be a bit of a philosophical question but since you 1290 00:51:02,902 --> 00:51:06,348 [zaza]: do teach philosophy i can ask you this what are we trying so 1291 00:51:06,354 --> 00:51:06,696 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1292 00:51:06,448 --> 00:51:07,653 [zaza]: hard to escape from 1293 00:51:10,426 --> 00:51:11,889 [edward_slingerland]: this is a trickier question 1294 00:51:14,163 --> 00:51:14,364 [zaza]: nice 1295 00:51:14,764 --> 00:51:22,076 [edward_slingerland]: conscious consciousness is a good thing so my ability to use my prefroncorttext to monitor 1296 00:51:22,256 --> 00:51:28,926 [edward_slingerland]: my behavior and tell me if i am talking too long a i were at 1297 00:51:28,986 --> 00:51:32,794 [edward_slingerland]: a time and i have an appointment i need to get to this kind of 1298 00:51:32,954 --> 00:51:34,597 [edward_slingerland]: self survelance 1299 00:51:34,062 --> 00:51:34,144 [zaza]: no 1300 00:51:34,697 --> 00:51:39,952 [edward_slingerland]: and self regulation that we're engaging in all the time it's really important is you 1301 00:51:39,992 --> 00:51:44,836 [edward_slingerland]: need to be successful adults we need to do this it's exhausting you it takes 1302 00:51:44,957 --> 00:51:45,137 [edward_slingerland]: a lot 1303 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:45,481 [zaza]: oh 1304 00:51:45,197 --> 00:51:52,567 [edward_slingerland]: of energy and so i think there's just something appealing about losing losing that self 1305 00:51:52,667 --> 00:51:53,027 [edward_slingerland]: control 1306 00:51:53,370 --> 00:51:53,390 [zaza]: m 1307 00:51:53,608 --> 00:51:59,299 [edward_slingerland]: taking a little vacation from self motoring and there's lots of ways we could do 1308 00:51:59,359 --> 00:52:04,085 [edward_slingerland]: that so we can get into that state by play so you know when we 1309 00:52:04,225 --> 00:52:06,208 [edward_slingerland]: play a sport we play a game 1310 00:52:06,879 --> 00:52:06,900 [zaza]: m 1311 00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:12,619 [edward_slingerland]: or even when we participate as spectators in a game so we watch the world 1312 00:52:12,699 --> 00:52:16,106 [edward_slingerland]: cup where we watch a t v show or get a bed in a story 1313 00:52:16,470 --> 00:52:16,710 [zaza]: yes 1314 00:52:16,647 --> 00:52:21,341 [edward_slingerland]: or we read a novel that's very gripping and that consist involved out of our 1315 00:52:21,421 --> 00:52:30,404 [edward_slingerland]: heads that's pleasurable so human seem to enjoy taking a break from ourselves and i 1316 00:52:30,464 --> 00:52:35,753 [edward_slingerland]: think it's probably just a cogative version of why we like to sit down every 1317 00:52:35,833 --> 00:52:39,559 [edward_slingerland]: once in a while you know we just get tired and it's nice to sit 1318 00:52:39,619 --> 00:52:43,349 [edward_slingerland]: on the couch and rest i think that having 1319 00:52:43,380 --> 00:52:44,640 [zaza]: yeah 1320 00:52:43,409 --> 00:52:47,264 [edward_slingerland]: a drink playing a game watching t v 1321 00:52:49,392 --> 00:52:49,494 [zaza]: oh 1322 00:52:49,564 --> 00:52:50,469 [edward_slingerland]: going to the theater 1323 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:51,810 [zaza]: yeah 1324 00:52:51,915 --> 00:52:52,757 [edward_slingerland]: these are ways 1325 00:52:52,350 --> 00:52:52,651 [zaza]: oh 1326 00:52:53,017 --> 00:52:56,864 [edward_slingerland]: it's the cogative equivalent of resting on the couch or lying down for a bit 1327 00:52:57,045 --> 00:52:58,207 [edward_slingerland]: we just were tired of 1328 00:52:58,270 --> 00:52:58,411 [zaza]: yep 1329 00:52:58,327 --> 00:53:00,932 [edward_slingerland]: running our p f c all the time and we just want to turn it 1330 00:53:01,052 --> 00:53:01,192 [edward_slingerland]: off 1331 00:53:01,410 --> 00:53:01,631 [zaza]: yeah 1332 00:53:02,044 --> 00:53:03,188 [edward_slingerland]: so i think i think that's part 1333 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:03,600 [zaza]: yeah 1334 00:53:03,208 --> 00:53:03,911 [edward_slingerland]: of what's going on 1335 00:53:04,682 --> 00:53:08,549 [zaza]: that sounds kind of reassuring all right drawing drawing to 1336 00:53:08,544 --> 00:53:08,786 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1337 00:53:08,609 --> 00:53:10,592 [zaza]: a close i'm a big fan of 1338 00:53:10,644 --> 00:53:10,947 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1339 00:53:10,672 --> 00:53:13,557 [zaza]: i got to ask you this i'm a big fan of bohemian characters especially this 1340 00:53:13,617 --> 00:53:16,161 [zaza]: type of nineteenth century of an alcoholic 1341 00:53:16,294 --> 00:53:16,374 [edward_slingerland]: ah 1342 00:53:16,322 --> 00:53:20,248 [zaza]: artist i just read about the famous french painter to lose la trac who is 1343 00:53:20,308 --> 00:53:25,236 [zaza]: not only a very heavy drinker but invented his own cocktail which i believe he 1344 00:53:25,316 --> 00:53:26,298 [zaza]: just mixed konak 1345 00:53:26,003 --> 00:53:26,103 [edward_slingerland]: eh 1346 00:53:26,378 --> 00:53:31,547 [zaza]: and absent a tall glass wine i think he called it the earthquake i mean 1347 00:53:31,384 --> 00:53:32,044 [edward_slingerland]: sounds terrible 1348 00:53:32,188 --> 00:53:35,353 [zaza]: just watching people like drinking movies also 1349 00:53:35,688 --> 00:53:35,829 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1350 00:53:36,375 --> 00:53:38,979 [zaza]: i don't know if you've ever seen madman the t v show but the best 1351 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:44,428 [zaza]: it is just how don draper the protagonist and his colleagues are just sipping whiskey 1352 00:53:44,789 --> 00:53:45,089 [zaza]: you know 1353 00:53:45,064 --> 00:53:45,244 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1354 00:53:45,310 --> 00:53:48,535 [zaza]: at every meeting dressed in suits like every afternoon 1355 00:53:48,430 --> 00:53:48,590 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1356 00:53:49,457 --> 00:53:51,059 [zaza]: somewhere in the book you also mentioned 1357 00:53:50,974 --> 00:53:51,174 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1358 00:53:51,140 --> 00:53:55,527 [zaza]: one of my favorite movies the big labowski i think i mean would he be 1359 00:53:55,608 --> 00:53:59,455 [zaza]: the same without sipping on white russians all the time 1360 00:53:59,484 --> 00:53:59,767 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1361 00:53:59,635 --> 00:54:01,558 [zaza]: probably not right so what makes 1362 00:54:01,514 --> 00:54:01,716 [edward_slingerland]: right 1363 00:54:02,250 --> 00:54:06,647 [zaza]: just seeing somebody drink in a piece of art so appealing 1364 00:54:08,899 --> 00:54:12,186 [edward_slingerland]: well i think so these portrayals of artists is just part 1365 00:54:12,163 --> 00:54:12,183 [zaza]: i 1366 00:54:12,226 --> 00:54:19,589 [edward_slingerland]: of this trope where use we associate creativity with alcohol or canabusum and that's not 1367 00:54:19,650 --> 00:54:23,456 [edward_slingerland]: a myth that there's actually a good reason we have that association so that's part 1368 00:54:23,496 --> 00:54:28,003 [edward_slingerland]: of it you know you see these creative types um you know in the business 1369 00:54:28,104 --> 00:54:28,645 [edward_slingerland]: context 1370 00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:29,280 [zaza]: yeah 1371 00:54:29,085 --> 00:54:32,972 [edward_slingerland]: business drinking in the case of bad men it's partly for 1372 00:54:32,940 --> 00:54:33,142 [zaza]: yeah 1373 00:54:33,072 --> 00:54:35,276 [edward_slingerland]: creativity right partly they're trying to come up with new 1374 00:54:35,332 --> 00:54:35,353 [zaza]: m 1375 00:54:35,396 --> 00:54:40,725 [edward_slingerland]: ideas they are in a creative profession but partly it's the bonding think this is 1376 00:54:40,785 --> 00:54:47,175 [edward_slingerland]: why people in businesses that are astray creative still use alcohol and business functions gets 1377 00:54:47,182 --> 00:54:47,366 [zaza]: yeah 1378 00:54:47,235 --> 00:54:52,786 [edward_slingerland]: a way to relax everyone and get them to feel better about each other so 1379 00:54:52,826 --> 00:54:55,155 [edward_slingerland]: i think we you know it's interesting because part 1380 00:54:55,125 --> 00:54:55,146 [zaza]: a 1381 00:54:55,215 --> 00:55:00,677 [edward_slingerland]: of what i'm arguing against in drunk is looking at alcohol purely from a medicalized 1382 00:55:00,858 --> 00:55:02,364 [edward_slingerland]: point of view our 1383 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:02,641 [zaza]: yeah 1384 00:55:02,485 --> 00:55:11,048 [edward_slingerland]: public discourse on alcohol is purely medicalized it's all about it's physiological impact and if 1385 00:55:11,108 --> 00:55:16,978 [edward_slingerland]: you are looking at alcohol that way the only safe amount of drink is probably 1386 00:55:17,098 --> 00:55:18,841 [edward_slingerland]: zero where this 1387 00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:19,800 [zaza]: yeah 1388 00:55:18,901 --> 00:55:19,663 [edward_slingerland]: is not very much 1389 00:55:19,980 --> 00:55:20,262 [zaza]: yeah 1390 00:55:20,684 --> 00:55:24,190 [edward_slingerland]: and that's the conclusion of these famous studies that have come out recently in the 1391 00:55:24,631 --> 00:55:26,595 [edward_slingerland]: lancet this british medical journal 1392 00:55:26,340 --> 00:55:26,461 [zaza]: yeah 1393 00:55:27,419 --> 00:55:28,614 [edward_slingerland]: um and 1394 00:55:28,530 --> 00:55:28,776 [zaza]: oh 1395 00:55:28,634 --> 00:55:32,417 [edward_slingerland]: yet if you look at popular culture if you look at movies if you look 1396 00:55:32,537 --> 00:55:37,822 [edward_slingerland]: at literature if you look at the way real people actually behave in their real 1397 00:55:37,922 --> 00:55:45,562 [edward_slingerland]: lives we make a role for intoxicins than we enjoy intoxicins we enjoy characters who 1398 00:55:45,623 --> 00:55:53,978 [edward_slingerland]: were using intoxicans because we recognize implicitly that they play a function manner live they 1399 00:55:54,058 --> 00:55:59,138 [edward_slingerland]: helped to make humans human and so i think that the problem is we're not 1400 00:55:59,378 --> 00:56:03,886 [edward_slingerland]: articulate about what those functions are we know they exist but we don't think about 1401 00:56:03,946 --> 00:56:07,492 [edward_slingerland]: them consciously and we probably never sat down and thought oh this is why i 1402 00:56:07,692 --> 00:56:12,721 [edward_slingerland]: use all hall on a first date or something you know why do you first 1403 00:56:12,801 --> 00:56:16,787 [edward_slingerland]: date you don't go and do meth together right and 1404 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:17,061 [zaza]: yeah 1405 00:56:16,847 --> 00:56:20,734 [edward_slingerland]: you don't even drink coffee or smoke a cigarette you have a glass of and 1406 00:56:21,576 --> 00:56:22,397 [edward_slingerland]: m that's not an 1407 00:56:22,470 --> 00:56:22,733 [zaza]: oh 1408 00:56:22,558 --> 00:56:29,111 [edward_slingerland]: accident it's doing something socially important so the what i hope will happen with the 1409 00:56:29,171 --> 00:56:37,217 [edward_slingerland]: drunk is that by laying out explicitly what these functions are and what the adaptive 1410 00:56:37,317 --> 00:56:44,036 [edward_slingerland]: challenges are that they're trying to solve we'll be more articulate about why why and 1411 00:56:44,116 --> 00:56:49,463 [edward_slingerland]: when we use alcohol we'll be more conscious of the ways in which alcohol use 1412 00:56:49,543 --> 00:56:54,948 [edward_slingerland]: can go sideways where it can go awry and become dangerous and then we'll be 1413 00:56:55,008 --> 00:57:01,288 [edward_slingerland]: in a much better position to make an intelligent decision about whether or not we're 1414 00:57:01,308 --> 00:57:06,139 [edward_slingerland]: going to use alcohol and so now when and how and how much so so 1415 00:57:06,199 --> 00:57:13,157 [edward_slingerland]: that's what i'm trying to do is just articulate why we find intoxicants appealing and 1416 00:57:13,198 --> 00:57:17,731 [edward_slingerland]: we find characters used intoxicant appealing we need to get more articulate about this 1417 00:57:19,030 --> 00:57:23,096 [zaza]: fantastic i really recommend everybody this book where 1418 00:57:22,984 --> 00:57:23,085 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1419 00:57:23,176 --> 00:57:25,179 [zaza]: can people get it probably everywhere online right 1420 00:57:26,344 --> 00:57:28,589 [edward_slingerland]: everywhere online yeah so there's no german edition 1421 00:57:28,614 --> 00:57:28,714 [zaza]: all 1422 00:57:28,669 --> 00:57:28,769 [edward_slingerland]: yet 1423 00:57:28,815 --> 00:57:28,996 [zaza]: right 1424 00:57:28,829 --> 00:57:29,992 [edward_slingerland]: which is surprising but 1425 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:30,282 [zaza]: oh 1426 00:57:30,433 --> 00:57:33,138 [edward_slingerland]: it's in every almost every other european language so 1427 00:57:33,750 --> 00:57:36,855 [zaza]: awesome awesome do you have any social media accounts that you would 1428 00:57:36,834 --> 00:57:37,077 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1429 00:57:36,895 --> 00:57:39,419 [zaza]: like to where can people follow your work 1430 00:57:40,965 --> 00:57:41,847 [edward_slingerland]: so my website 1431 00:57:41,670 --> 00:57:41,974 [zaza]: oh 1432 00:57:41,947 --> 00:57:46,975 [edward_slingerland]: is just my name edward slater land all one word dot com and that has 1433 00:57:47,035 --> 00:57:50,481 [edward_slingerland]: everything you could possibly want to know bout my books 1434 00:57:50,391 --> 00:57:50,813 [zaza]: all right 1435 00:57:50,661 --> 00:57:52,449 [edward_slingerland]: my other books and that cor 1436 00:57:52,643 --> 00:57:56,335 [zaza]: nice the very last very short question before 1437 00:57:56,304 --> 00:57:57,144 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1438 00:57:56,375 --> 00:57:57,217 [zaza]: i let you go the name 1439 00:57:57,144 --> 00:57:57,406 [edward_slingerland]: oh 1440 00:57:57,257 --> 00:58:00,383 [zaza]: of this podcast is your trash so i have to ask you something even more 1441 00:58:00,444 --> 00:58:00,885 [zaza]: trashy at 1442 00:58:00,894 --> 00:58:01,734 [edward_slingerland]: yeah 1443 00:58:00,925 --> 00:58:02,267 [zaza]: the end what is the 1444 00:58:02,254 --> 00:58:02,434 [edward_slingerland]: okay 1445 00:58:02,348 --> 00:58:07,157 [zaza]: most gross alcoholic beverage that you ever had in your life 1446 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,141 [edward_slingerland]: that i ever had personally 1447 00:58:11,380 --> 00:58:11,461 [zaza]: up 1448 00:58:13,084 --> 00:58:13,607 [edward_slingerland]: something that's 1449 00:58:13,620 --> 00:58:13,820 [zaza]: yeah 1450 00:58:13,667 --> 00:58:17,375 [edward_slingerland]: some one called a long iowa ice tea but it seems 1451 00:58:17,250 --> 00:58:18,330 [zaza]: yeah 1452 00:58:17,435 --> 00:58:18,937 [edward_slingerland]: to have been just whatever 1453 00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:19,162 [zaza]: yeah 1454 00:58:19,117 --> 00:58:24,707 [edward_slingerland]: they had their licridcabbn all poured together over ice with some orange juice added that 1455 00:58:24,767 --> 00:58:25,348 [edward_slingerland]: was terrific 1456 00:58:25,260 --> 00:58:25,480 [zaza]: yeah 1457 00:58:26,450 --> 00:58:32,278 [edward_slingerland]: and that drink you just mentioned from that poet sounds pretty awful too absinth and 1458 00:58:32,231 --> 00:58:32,392 [zaza]: yeah 1459 00:58:32,358 --> 00:58:36,303 [edward_slingerland]: kona fixed together but yeah there are some pretty gross drinks out 1460 00:58:36,268 --> 00:58:36,469 [zaza]: yeah 1461 00:58:36,343 --> 00:58:36,483 [edward_slingerland]: there 1462 00:58:38,752 --> 00:58:42,762 [zaza]: all right professor linger land thank you so much for taking the time this was 1463 00:58:42,766 --> 00:58:42,946 [edward_slingerland]: thanks 1464 00:58:42,802 --> 00:58:44,286 [zaza]: fantastic thank you 1465 00:58:44,669 --> 00:58:46,050 [edward_slingerland]: thanks for having it's a lot of fun