Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 889: The Boss of All Fishing Records

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Ep. 889: The Boss of All Fishing Records · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
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  Speaker 1: dot com. That's f I R S T L I
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  Speaker 1: T E dot com. K Ladies and gentlemen, we're joined
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  Speaker 1: today by the Boss of All Phishing Records. Is that
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: what your business card says? No, we're gonna run with it.
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  Speaker 1: Boss of All Phishing Records, Jason Schratwiser, who is the
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  Speaker 1: president of the i g f A or International Game
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  Speaker 1: Fish Association. So if you're sitting at home wondering why
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  Speaker 1: that matters or what that means, we're gonna talk about it.
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  Speaker 1: But one of the ways to connect it is when
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  Speaker 1: you hear someone saying they have a new line class
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  Speaker 1: record or they called a record this or a record that.
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  Speaker 1: You guys are the record holders. We are the world's
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  Speaker 1: keeper of records.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a lot of enterities out there that
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  Speaker 2: keep records, whether it be States or you know, there's
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  Speaker 2: Freshwater Fishing Hall of Fame, but you know, in terms
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  Speaker 2: of the world's keeper of records, it's the IDFA for sure.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And you guys traditionally were salt water, but you
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  Speaker 1: now do the fresh water too.
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  Speaker 2: We were, so we were founded in nineteen thirty nine
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  Speaker 2: and really the genesis of our organization is at that
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  Speaker 2: point there were a couple of other big time angling
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  Speaker 2: clubs out there, but there was no universal code of
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  Speaker 2: angling rules, so to speak. So if you're fishing in
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  Speaker 2: Australian and I'm fishing in New Zealand or wherever, and
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  Speaker 2: we're fishing for the same fish. You catch a fish
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  Speaker 2: one size, I catch one another. No, really weary to
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  Speaker 2: compare performance. And so that led into us becoming a
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  Speaker 2: record keeping body. And like you said, we were saltwater
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  Speaker 2: for a long time, but what happened over time we
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  Speaker 2: transitioned into freshwater and fly fishing as well. We picked
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  Speaker 2: up the freshwater records from Field and Stream in the
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  Speaker 2: nineteen seventies.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, what what part of Because you know, Field and
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  Speaker 1: Stream is a weird deal where all these different entities
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  Speaker 1: own all these different rights to the name. Right when you.
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  Speaker 1: So if you had, if Field and Stream had the record,
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  Speaker 1: what portion of Field and Stream held freshwater records?
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  Speaker 3: I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: This is before my time. This is I think nineteen
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  Speaker 2: seventy for something like that. I can't remember exactly. This
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  Speaker 2: was a year I was born. Man, it was two
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  Speaker 2: years for me. I mean I was born in seventy two.
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  Speaker 2: But anyways, we took them over. Field and Stream said, hey,
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  Speaker 2: we have a deal for you. We've been keeping these
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  Speaker 2: since eighteen hundreds. Our oldest record, I think on the
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  Speaker 2: books is a yellow perch caught in eighteen eighty something
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  Speaker 2: in New Jersey.
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  Speaker 1: So that must have been like Field and Stream the magazine.
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  Speaker 1: Because you know, if you go into some store and
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  Speaker 1: you see like a Field and Stream canoe, you know
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  Speaker 1: what I mean exactly?
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  Speaker 3: They say that.
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  Speaker 1: They've sold off over the years all these different rights
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  Speaker 1: to the name, and so I didn't know if where
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  Speaker 1: the fact that I didn't know they even had freshwater
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  Speaker 1: record yea.
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  Speaker 3: So we took it over from Field and Stream.
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  Speaker 1: Then they handed you the papers, They said, here.
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  Speaker 2: Do it, and then we must have done some kind
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  Speaker 2: of vetting process on the on the records there and
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  Speaker 2: then that that included fresh water fly fishing as well.
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  Speaker 2: And then then two years later the Salty Fly Riders,
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  Speaker 2: which was an entity that was you know, really on
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  Speaker 2: the cusp of this emerging news sport, you know, catching
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  Speaker 2: saltwater fish and get saltwater fish on fly. They had
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  Speaker 2: started to create their own set of rules, Mark Sosen
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  Speaker 2: and Stu Apt two luminaries there. They came to the
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  Speaker 2: igf A and we subsequently took over those records and
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  Speaker 2: modified our rules as well.
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  Speaker 1: So we're what does like where do the records live?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of the stuff prize have been digitized,
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  Speaker 1: A lot of it has as yourself have gone through it.
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  Speaker 2: So like a lot of those field and stream records
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  Speaker 2: have been entered, especially the ones that are still valid.
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  Speaker 3: You know, they're in our database.
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  Speaker 2: But we're we're undertaking a massive digitization process for We've
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  Speaker 2: got what we call our E. K.
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  Speaker 3: Harriet Library Officies. It's massive.
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  Speaker 2: We've got over seventeen thousand books, you know, millions of photographs,
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  Speaker 2: et cetera. But that was where those old records lie.
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  Speaker 2: But then you know, everything that's been fairly modern is
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  Speaker 2: already in our world record database. We've got photos that
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  Speaker 2: have been you know digitized out of the record application.
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  Speaker 2: So a lot of that has been done already.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I feel like a lot of a lot
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  Speaker 1: of listeners are are going to be I don't mean
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  Speaker 1: this as a I don't mean this as an insult
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  Speaker 1: to you guys, but a lot of our listeners are
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  Speaker 1: going to be more aware of Boone and Crockett sure
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  Speaker 1: than they would be of IGFA. And I want to
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  Speaker 1: ask you a question, but I want to set up
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  Speaker 1: kind of like how why Boone and Crockett exists?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 1: So Boone and Crockett was what began and remains a
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  Speaker 1: conservation organization. As part of their conservation work a long
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  Speaker 1: time ago, they wanted to have a way of sort
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  Speaker 1: of how do you measure the health of herds?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 1: How do we know what what hunters are getting, what's
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  Speaker 1: coming off the land? What is big, what is little?
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  Speaker 1: They had an idea and it wasn't entirely wrong that
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  Speaker 1: you could tell the health of a population of wild
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  Speaker 1: animals by whether or not it was producing large specimens, right,
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  Speaker 1: Like all the things need to be happening properly for
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  Speaker 1: a for a you know whatever, for a patch of
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  Speaker 1: ground in North Carolina to produce seven eight year old
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  Speaker 1: big white tails, like a lot of good things need
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  Speaker 1: to be happening. You need to be taking the right
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  Speaker 1: steps to do that. So they felt, and I'm simplifying something,
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  Speaker 1: but the genesis of the idea was by track of
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  Speaker 1: the size of animals coming off the landscape, we might
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  Speaker 1: be able to gauge the health of the ecosystem right
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  Speaker 1: even before some of those words are being used. So
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  Speaker 1: to do that, they established this scoring system, and the
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  Speaker 1: scoring system kind of went on to have It still
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  Speaker 1: serves its purpose, but it went on to have a
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  Speaker 1: life of its own. And so a lot of guys
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  Speaker 1: now might look and they might say, oh, Boone and Crockett,
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  Speaker 1: And in their head they're not thinking wild, they have conservation.
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  Speaker 1: They're thinking it's the people that made the scoring system right. Right,
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  Speaker 1: with that context or understanding that history, can you explain,
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  Speaker 1: are there is there a parallel story with IGFA or
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  Speaker 1: was it sort of reverse engineered that it was all
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  Speaker 1: about the numbers and became about the conservation.
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  Speaker 3: That was a great slow pitch man. Thanks for that
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  Speaker 3: one quite a bit. So.
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  Speaker 2: The guy that founded the IDFA, it was a gentleman
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  Speaker 2: named Michael Lerner. He was a man of means in
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  Speaker 2: the late thirties, he had department stores in New York.
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  Speaker 2: But he was very philanthropic to the American Museum Natural History.
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  Speaker 2: You know, he was big into that. And even before
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  Speaker 2: he founded the IGFA, he would go on these expeditions,
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  Speaker 2: you know, around the world, Chile, New Zealand, wherever, and
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  Speaker 2: he would take not only photographers but cinem photographers, take movies,
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  Speaker 2: but also scientists from the American Museum of Natural History
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  Speaker 2: because he wanted to make sure that they were cataloging
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  Speaker 2: whatever you were seeing catching, et cetera. And when IGFA
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  Speaker 2: was founded, we were originally housed in the American Museum
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  Speaker 2: of Natural History and our original president was a curator officious,
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  Speaker 2: doctor William King Gregory.
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  Speaker 3: So right away you had this tie with science and conservation.
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  Speaker 2: And our first model, I believe, was for ethical sport
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  Speaker 2: and productive science. So we always had that tie in.
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  Speaker 2: So you know, you know, our rules led into records,
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  Speaker 2: like I said, and you know, you can kind of
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  Speaker 2: look at that as a proxy for health.
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  Speaker 3: I don't think it's as.
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  Speaker 2: Good as probably as what you can do with Boone
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  Speaker 2: and Crockett, because I think terrestrial systems are a lot
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  Speaker 2: easier to gauge abundance of animals, health of animal, size
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  Speaker 2: of animals. Records are a little bit different because you know,
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  Speaker 2: people say, hey, can we just use your records per SAE,
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  Speaker 2: you know, to see how fish have changed over time.
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  Speaker 2: I'm like yes and no, because records depend on a
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  Speaker 2: couple of things. Obviously, you need to have a fish
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  Speaker 2: for a particular size out there to be beaten if
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  Speaker 2: one already exists, But you also have to have interest.
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  Speaker 2: So it's not this kind of ideal free distribution of
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  Speaker 2: people that are pursuing these things all the time. You know,
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  Speaker 2: it's a really rarefied universe. And so say the all
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  Speaker 2: tackle record for a fish is I don't know, just
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  Speaker 2: for sake of example, four hundred pounds. You know there
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  Speaker 2: may be dozens hundreds of fish that are three hundred
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  Speaker 2: and eighty pounds that are caught as year but are
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  Speaker 2: not entered because they know they won't break the record.
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  Speaker 3: So you know, when I when I talk to.
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  Speaker 1: People, I wouldn't get I'd have to know. Yeah, I
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  Speaker 1: wouldn't tell anyone, Like if there's some fish I like
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  Speaker 1: a lot, I wouldn't tell anyone if I caught one
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  Speaker 1: that was closed but not open.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, But I.
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  Speaker 2: Mean as far as the conservation goes, you know, that
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  Speaker 2: really kind of ramped up over the years and we
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  Speaker 2: really really got strong, you know, certainly in the two thousands,
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  Speaker 2: but before then as well, we really started weighing in
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  Speaker 2: on fisheries issues around the world.
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  Speaker 3: There we used to have a.
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  Speaker 2: Monthly publication called the International It was called the Marine
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  Speaker 2: International Angler. Actually this is before we took over of
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  Speaker 2: freshwater stuff. And on the cover I had this old
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  Speaker 2: edition of it and it says, you know, IGFA is
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  Speaker 2: asking ICAP, which is the international body that manages bluef intuna,
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  Speaker 2: to take measures to protect the stock. And that's just
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  Speaker 2: when the stock started to go down.
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  Speaker 1: But were you take that example of bluefin tuna, what
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  Speaker 1: was your awareness, like what was the alarm bell for
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  Speaker 1: you during month when bluefin tuna started to drop off?
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  Speaker 1: What year was that when they really started to drop
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  Speaker 1: I think I think they started to really fall off.
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  Speaker 1: The cliffs in the fifties and sixties belong on big
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  Speaker 1: time and and what like, how did you like, how
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  Speaker 1: did that become did you guys become aware of that
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  Speaker 1: or become that was a pet fish of our organization?
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  Speaker 2: So a lot of the presidents at time really liked
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  Speaker 2: to compete at these international tuna tournaments. They were like
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  Speaker 2: a big deal, like a wedgeport in Canada and stuff
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  Speaker 2: like that. There was a really historical bluefin tuna fishery
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  Speaker 2: and kat k when those fish were coming back and
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  Speaker 2: forth from spawning in the Gulf of Mexico, and I
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  Speaker 2: saw these numbers going down, the size of these fish
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  Speaker 2: going down. So you know, that was an obvious thing
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  Speaker 2: that said, hey, we should we should be doing something
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  Speaker 2: for this.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, got it, got it. And so then so then
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  Speaker 1: the ORG went and went and petitioned or talked with
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  Speaker 1: the group that sort of oversaw and managed that fish
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  Speaker 1: and said we have a problem.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, along with some other groups. But I mean, you know,
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  Speaker 2: we're probably one of the first recreational groups, certainly international
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  Speaker 2: groups to kind of take that stance with things, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and we've done it from that time on on a
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  Speaker 2: variety of different species. You know, we lean really heavily
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  Speaker 2: into billfish. We've done a lot of work to conserve
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  Speaker 2: bill fish. We've passed two laws in the United States
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  Speaker 2: that prohibit the importation and sale of marlin, salefish, and
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  Speaker 2: spearfish before that, I bet you didn't know this. We
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  Speaker 2: were the world's biggest importer of those. No, can you
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  Speaker 2: believe for what tax? Jermy no, No, for food. So
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  Speaker 2: we had a we had a board member and we
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: were having a lunch at headquarters one day. It was
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: a social thing, and he sat down. He says, do
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  Speaker 2: you know who's importing the most, exporting the most, killing
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  Speaker 2: the most billfish? I said, I really don't, but if
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: we had some money. I know the guy that coul
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: commissioned a study. I had a friend that was in
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: economists with the National Marine Fishery Service and he had
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: just gone private. He put the money he should give
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: you the money for it. So he went through, did
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  Speaker 2: all the date He's like, I guess he's important the most,
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  Speaker 2: importing the most of Like I don't know China, result,
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  Speaker 2: I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: No, we are but importing marlin from where and for what?
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  Speaker 2: Oh, places like say Central America, big time Vietnam food.
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  Speaker 2: You would be surprised at the time. People would be like,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: where do you see this? All you would have to
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: do is google Marlin stakes. Yeah, you know. Wegmans had
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  Speaker 2: it for a while. They got on the campaign and
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: they kicked it out, but you didn't.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: There was you can still walk into you can walk
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: into gas stations in Hawaii, you get more poke.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, we had to I'll get into that. We had
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: to do a carve out for that. But there were
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I think at least three sushi joints within ten to
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: fifteen minutes from where I live where I could find
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  Speaker 2: Marlin Sushi.
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  Speaker 3: So it was there. Yeah, you just had to look
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  Speaker 3: for it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And we started off with this public awareness campaign,
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  Speaker 2: you know, telling people, hey, look, you know there's not
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: that many of these things out there. They've got an
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  Speaker 2: important use in the ecosystem, and they're a big economic
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: driver for recreational language. That's spend a lot of money
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  Speaker 2: on boots and tackle to largely catch them, release these fish,
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  Speaker 2: you know, killing them in large numbers to bring them
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  Speaker 2: in for you know, you know, a low, low value
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  Speaker 2: pro It doesn't mean a lot of sense, you know.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: But finally we knew that we'd have to take kind
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: of legislative steps. So the first round we went in
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: and we thought we were all smart. We just wanted
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: it all out of prohibition and sale and importation in
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: all fifty states. Well back then in a way was
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: in power and was a senator in a way, oh okay,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: and that was dead on arrival, you know.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: And you know, we understand I'm not familiar with the name,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: tell me who that is.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: I think he was in charge of appropriation. But he
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: was a very powerful congress person then, so you know,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: if he didn't like a particular bill, you know, he
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: had the ability to cut it, especially in his home,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: you know, in Hawaii.
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  Speaker 3: Oh okay.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So that that's I was wondering why I had
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: relevance to him.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: He was whih And truthfully speaking, there is this cultural
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: significance with with bill fish and Hawaii.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, you've been there. You know, fish is very
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: very important to them.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: So we went back to the drawing board and in
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: twenty twelve we got a law pass that banned the
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: importation and sale of those species in the continental United States,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Hawaii and what they call other Pacific insular areas, you know,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: American territories like Quam, Samoa. They were still allowed, yeah,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: you know, to harvest it.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: But were you Okay, this is a little bit maybe
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: problematic for me, but you can walk me through. It
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: was that coming because people were seeing a decline oh god, Okay,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: billfish stocks around the world are not being managed good.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: I mean you can only point to I think one
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: or two that have enough data that state that they're abundant.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: But you know, if you look in the Atlantic, okay
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Atlantic and blue Atlantic, blue marlin and white marlin, they've
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: been in alternating positions of either being overfished, experiencing it
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: over fishing, or the combination of the two for like
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: ever thirty years.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, because the point I was going to make that
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: if you couldn't demonstrate that, the point I was gonna
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: make is I know, guys that will be the fish
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, every fish they catch their adamant
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: that to be let go. Oh, but they go to
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: restaurants and buy fish.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: Sure.
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  Speaker 1: Somebody said, well, how are you deciding what? How are
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: you deciding what fish? Like do you know where that
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: fish came from? If you don't want to damage your
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: home fishery, how do you know you're not damaging a
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: different fishery, Like, how are you making these decisions? Like
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: you what are your decision process based on? So if
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: with the billfish thing, if someone could go and say, yeah,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: we had to well no, we're in we're in crisis mode.
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  Speaker 1: That's why we should take emphasis off of this fish,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: knowing that it's going to be placed upon the next
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: fish down the line.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean you have to look at it
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: from a couple of different lenses. Number one, you know,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: especially blue and blackbarlin, you know the kind of apex predators.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: You know, thousands of pounds. But you know, we had
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: data that's shown that their abunnets had declined. And Stephen,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: there are a number of species that we don't have
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: enough data. There's never been a stock assessment so we
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: can accurately determine how depleted or not they are. Think
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: about Central America. You know, they're iconic. Billfish areas sale fish.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: If you want to take somebody to catch your first salefish,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: you're going to Costa Rica, You're going to guatam Ali. Yeah,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: there has never been a stock assessment done on Pacific sailfish.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, how would you do that?
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: You've got to have a lot of baseline parameters. You've
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: got to have things like growth, so you have to
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: have an idea of how fast they grow all on,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: they grow over time, age of first maturity, things like that.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Then you have to have some good indices of abundance.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: You know where you're getting you know, historical and current catch,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: you know in effort rates, so you can see how
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: you know, the catch of things fluctuate over time. And
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: it's a very sophisticated thing, you know, and with.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Someone that involved like mark and recapture, like if guys
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: start tag and tag and tagging a little bit.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: But really a lot of the abundancies come from longline boats,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: you know, because the data is so good. You know,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: there are some recreational indices of abundance that are used
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: in the US for stock assessments, but a lot of
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: it comes from longline data.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: God, And no one's been able to do that. No
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: is it because a lack of money, lack of interest,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: because it's scientifically too difficult.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: I think it's a it will be difficult to do,
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: it's not impossible to do. But if you look at
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: highly migratory species, and they're they're managed by four major
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: what they call regional fisheries organizations around the world. You've
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: got one in the Atlantic, you get two in the Pacific,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: one in the Indian Ocean. They're the red headed step
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: children of all highly migratory species because they don't fetch
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: the market value that big eye tuna or yellowfin tune
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: or none of the bellfish.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: So they'll be harvested because they're large in size and
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: there were something, but they don't get the money that
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: you know, market value that these other species do, so
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: they take a back seat from a management perspective.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, I got what you're saying.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is why you know, we undertake a giant
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: effort to start satellite tagging these things all over the world.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Like you mean, because you could catch a blue fin
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: tune that might feasibly worth you might tell me, but
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars for it.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Man, there's been bluefin tuna that have been sold for
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: over a million.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So that fish is going to have from from
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: the market perspective, that fish is going to have greater
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: scrutiny just because it's going to have added scrutiny just
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: because of its commercial value.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: And we really don't we really we're starting on no
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: more now, but we still don't know a whole lot
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: about bellfish.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: We undertook a joint venture with doctor Barbara Block in
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: twenty eleven. This was when something called pop up satellite
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: archival tags were coming on the scene, and what these
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: are kind of essentially many computers that you deploy on
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: fish like you would with a conventional attack.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: But he's got a break surface to make of night
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: or oh no, no, it's not true.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: So let's go back to what you know, conventional tag
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: and look like you know, you know, you would catch
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: a fish in ConA, Hawaii and maybe somebody, luckily if ever,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: might catch that fish some other location. The data you
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: got from that was a minimum days at large. Okay,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: how long has that fish been swimming since she was
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: caught and it was recaptured, and then you would get
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: a linear distance from point A to point B. You
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: don't know what that fish did in that period of time,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: you know, and you didn't know anything about its diving behavior,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: you know, starting he.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Could have went a lot farther on his way home
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: when he got caught.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, you know, in the late nineties two thousands,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: you know, these these peace ats as they're called, started
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: to come on the scene and they collect a wealth
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: of data. You know, every thirty seconds, you're getting information
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: on temperature depth, You're you're able to get an algorithm
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: based on light to determine and daily fix of these fish,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: so you're able to get a track where these fish going.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Just I don't want to bog you down in technical details,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: but but that fish has to be a There can't
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: be a benthic fish, right, it has to be like
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: a plagic fish that's hanging out near the surface. Like,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: how is it getting that signal out through the water.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: It doesn't, it can't.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: So what happens is you program that tag to stay
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: on that tether for a predetermined amount of time, usually
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: between one hundred and eighty two d and forty days. And
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: when that happens, a signal comes from the computer on
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: the tag and it corrodes a pin, the tag pops
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: up and then starts beaming information to orbiting satellites.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Really yeah, so you never got to go recover it.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: You don't have.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: If you do recover, it's great because you get every
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: single data point. You're getting daily summaries, you know, from
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: the from the birds transmit, you.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Don't kidding that thing comes off, floats up and in
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: cert sentence and the and the beauty about that is
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: two things.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Number one, the quality of the data that you get
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: is just enormous. I mean, like I say, you get tracks,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: but you're also getting information on diving behavior and we're
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: looking at you know, how does that change in different areas,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: in different oceanographic conditions and things like that, habitat preferences
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: and things like that. But you never have to recapture
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: that fish, yeah, to get any data.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I feel like I've heard stories about those. And it's
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: when you see that one of your fish has been
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: eaten by another fish.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: We've got We've got it happens, and we've got a
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: good story about that. So uh, we we're doing. I
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: think this was a Lizard Island black Marlin tournament in
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Australia and black marlin got tagged and we could tell
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: it got eaten by a sharp because the tag was intact,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: but it had no light level with shark's stomach. Okay,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: got it, and you know the shark puked it out
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: and the diving behaviors were different. We were not only
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: able to tell that it was a shark, but it
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: was probably either a maco or a great white. Probably
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: a maca most likely in that area because the temperature
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: of that tag in the gut of that fish we
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: know was higher than the ambient water temperature at that
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: depth where that fish was swimming.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, I feel like maybe maybe that
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: was example. I heard it.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: I've heard of that before. Yeah, so it's cool. We've
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: learned a lot of stuff and we started this.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: But because that's the thing I didn't know too. The
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: shark's gut is warmer.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: In some sharks that are slightly into themic.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, he runs warmer. Yeah, that's not a feeling
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: fish and feeling warm.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, So maca is port beagles and and
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: and white sharks have the ability to have, you know,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: maintain a body temperature that's higher than the ambient water tips.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: I had no idea, yeah, okay, yeah.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: So we started this project and you know, some started
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: in twenty eleven. We've deployed over seven hundred tags and
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: twenty five locations around the world and steven. These are
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: expensive pieces of equipment. These range from thirty five hundred
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: to forty five hundred dollars a year. This whole project
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: has only been able to work because it's born on
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: the benevolence of recreational billfish anglers. They're the ones sponsoring
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: these tags and deploying these tags. So it's a beautiful thing.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: We've been able to provide the data that you know,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: other managers didn't have the money.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: To be able to do.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but we're also showing that recreational billfish anglers or conservations,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: they're not only putting forth their money to sponsor these tags,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: but they're also part of the science who are deploying
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: these tags as well.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: So it's been great. So we've We've got a ton
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: of data. And one of the other things that we
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: do is we make it all open access, so this
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: is not proprietary to just us or our partners at Stanford.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: We encourage, you know, are the partners managers to use
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: it whatsoever. You know, it's open access, which is an anomaly.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Typically, let's talk from it about the record stuff, and
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: I think a fun way introduced and how the records
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: work and what the rules are, because you guys have
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: rules that how would you express the rules? You have
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: fishing rules that the tournaments will buy to buy, right.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: We have rules that were developed to establish ethics and
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: fair play. Okay, so you wanted it to be ethical
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: and you also wanted to have a sense of fair play,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: so the finish would have a chance of, you know,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: getting away from sometimes.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: So the story that I've read about and written about,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: we've talked about is this this guy, Frank Munda's. Munda's
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: people will recognize they listeners might not recognize Frank Munda's,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: but they'll recognize a character inspired by Frank Mundas, which
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: is this Quint from Jaws is in some way Benchley, right,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Peter Benchley, in some way he modeled his Shark Hunter
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: off this dude whose named Frank Mundas. And Frank Mundas
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: was a fisherman who fished out of Montauk, Long Island,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: so in New York State, and he was around in
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: an era when you were starting to see declines in
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: some of the traditional fish that people went after off
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Long Island. So we talked about bluefin declines, swordfish declines,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: other things were in decline. And Munda's was kind of
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: an opportunist and he built this business where he called
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: himself Monster Man. He had necklaces full of shark teeth.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: He would drag home these giant sharks, big tigers, big makos,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: whatever he'd get his hands on, he'd hang them up
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: on the dock, you know, by a chain from a hoist.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Tourists would see these big fish and he would sell
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: trips to go for sharks, and he built this whole
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: persona around the big shark hunter. At one point in time,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: it let me back that up Munda's had developed a
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: sort of fishing secret where he would father off to
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: dead whales.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: He could always he had a he had black belt
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: for finding dead whales. I mean, that's just what we've
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: heard about Frank. He just he could find.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Him found black you know, he would find whales, find them.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Now rumors and I'm not he's gone, and and I
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: don't have firsthand experience. I haven't talked to people who
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: had firsthand experience with Munda's, but there were rumors that
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Mundu's his knack for finding dead whales sort of defied belief.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: And it was it was speculated by individuals that that
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: he it can't be that he's just able to find
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: these whales. He must be generating dead whales. He's generating
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: dead whales in order to tether off on these whales
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: and fish sharks they're coming to feed on whales. That
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: was a that was a rumor. You can go search
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: online and you will find it.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Way more diplomatic than that I would. I just always said,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: you know, this guy could just find a dead whale
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: like nobody else.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Get Yeah, you needed to find it, dead whale, here's
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: your man.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he'll find it for you.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: You'll find one this morning.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: I know where it is.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: So Mondus goes I don't even remember what year this was.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: I think it was eighty six or eighty three. Well,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: the one he harpooned. Oh yeah, he goes off. He
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: has a dead whale. He ties up on it and
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: he's out there and he harpoons a I believe it
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: was a white shark in the four thousand pound range.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: And he's criticized and people are like, well, yeah, you
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: harpooned it, you didn't catch it. So then he goes
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: out and with Rod and Reel and he goes out
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: and catches one that I believe was in the three
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: thousand pound range. And he felt as though he would
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: be now the holder of the the the IGFA would
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: be the biggest fish ever caught on Rod and Reel
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: would be this great white shark. That's right, But it wasn't.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: No in this I'll let you take over.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: This goes back to something I'll always say is that
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: there's a lot more to catching an IGFA record or
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: getting an IGFA record, than catching a big damn fish,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: which he caught a big damn fish. So, as I
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: was told, and I went back to the archives, I
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: talked to I'm President number eight. You know, we've been
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: around since nineteen thirty nine. There's been eight chairman, eight presidents.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: I'm President number eight. I went back to President number five,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: who I worked with a little bit when I first
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: came to IGFA in two thousand and three. And you know,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: he was worked with President number four E. K. Harry,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: you know, and so he knew a lot of backstory
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: on this. He was around him. So I just shot
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: him an email. I said, Mike, I remember you telling
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: me about this, you know, and I think I have
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: a right give me the detail.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: So this is what I was talking.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, any part I got wrong, go ahead now, yeah,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: I think you got it.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: But I think it was either eighty three or eighty six.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: I think it's eighty six. He had a charter party
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: out and Frank found a dead well. There was like
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: three or four great whites. He's like, good Lord, you know,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: feeding off this thing. But he had a charter party
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: and they didn't want to assume purportedly didn't want to
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: fish for these things, so he took them back. They
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: didn't want to fish for great They didn't want to
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: fish with the great whites, from what I'm understanding. So
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: either after he took them back that day or the
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: next day, he went out there and they were having trouble,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: you know, baiting these fish because they were you know, obset.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Gorged don whale. But what he did, admittedly is that
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: he tethered off, like you said, to the whale so
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: they could stay with the floating whale. They hooked one,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: not the biggest one allegedly though out of the group.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: They said one was way bigger than the three thousand,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: five hundred.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: Whatever it was.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: So catches a fish and I think they have to
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: tow it back behind the boat. I don't think they
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: ever got it in the boat. They get it back.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: And we had a trustee in New York, Steven Slow,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: he had heard about this from the radio chatter, raced
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: to the spot, talked to Mondus in the in the
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: crew there, you know, asked what kind of tackle they
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: were used, and then he says, we were using one
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: hundred and eighty pound tests and just so you know,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: for IGF records, the max we accept is one hundred
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: and thirty pounds. Anything over that not sportsmanlike.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, so the cables out, No, you can use cable
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: for leader as long as it has a ten style
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: strength of.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: Well no, no, no, no, you're you know, for tackle
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: over thirty pounds, you're allowed thirty feet of liter.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: It can be made out of chain if you want it. Oh,
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I see, yeah, yeah, okay, I got you.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: I got the main main line, so that it's going
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: to dictate where that where that breaks one hundred and
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: thirty cut off cut off. So I heard one hundred
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: and eighty and then we also heard you know that
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: you know, tied off to the whale. And we have
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: a rule that says that chumming with the flesh or
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: using it for bait of mammals is prohibited. Oh so
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: we didn't expect to see an application. An application came
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: in and Mike said, sure enough, it said they used
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty pound line even though they were
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: on the record. I so the short story was rejected
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: kind of on two grounds. One is you know, they
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: said they used one hundred and eighty even though they
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: said in a sample of one hundred and thirty said
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: that was suspect. But they also admitted to tying off
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: on that whale, so.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: It wasn't there. See that's funny because my understanding of
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: the story was one of the problems, there was several,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: but one of the problems as well, as they were
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: trading the rod back and forth.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't hear that, but that's definitely a no no.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: I mean because the cardinal rule of IGFA, once the
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: fish strikes rod real or structs the baitler lure, nobody
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: but the anglic types Roduler line got it.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: You know. No assistance.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you're walking by and you glance the
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: rod with your shoulder, that's not an infraction or anything
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: like that. But you know, assisting with the drag or
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: certainly help me hold the rod for a minute while
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: you get a cold beer or something like that.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: That didn't fly.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but when you when you do that kind
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: of stuff, like so if you if the records, sorry,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: let me approach this a different way. If you if
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: you go look at back to the boone and crocket parallel.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: There's an aspect of this I feel like it would
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: be interesting to you guys, is the Boon and crocket
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: parallel would be that they're interested in dead what we
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: call a deadhead.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: So if someone just fine it could get hit by
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: a damn train, right, right, that there's a place for
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: that in the records, right. Okay, I think that a
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: handful of the record keeping organizations. When it comes to mammals,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: there's a place for well, this was according to our
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: fair chase rules.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: So so a deer, you know, if a guy spotlighted
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: a deer at night and kills it, and he goes
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: to submit it, but he gets busted by the game
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: warden first. Later he's like, oh, I'm still going to submit.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: He's just out.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not going in the hunter records.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: But let's say it was some unheard of ungodly giant,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: you know whatever, it's like a two hundred and fifty
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: inch typical buck, right, some crazy number I'm just pulling
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: out of nowhere. It would still find a way, it
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: would still be codified within right, yep. Because there's an
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: interest in sort of like that. The landscape, at least
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: produced it, so it would be cataloged in some way. Yeah, right,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: And so for that reason you will see that. For
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: that reason you will see that, for instance, the biggest
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I think it's the biggest non typical. I think it
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: still stands. The biggest non typical white tail is a deadhead. Really,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: that's the biggest typical white tail. Believe the biggest typical
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: white tails hunter killed.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: I could be.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Messing that up, but so for a while it was
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: the biggest non typical was a deadhead. So within the system,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: like why would you guys not be keeping track of
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: stuff that came in off long lines or stuff that
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: came in on Frank Munds's boat. Just as a way
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: of saying, hey, the ocean in nineteen eighty six was
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: capable of producing a three thousand, five five hundred great
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: white Is it anymore?
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: So, I mean our rules specifically dictate to the act
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: of fishing, which we did. We definitely defined by the
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: active using rod, reel and line. I understand exactly what
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: you're saying, because you want to know how big these
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: things get out there, you know, no matter how they're done.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: So even for records that were rejected or for fish
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: that are bigger, that are never sitting. We know about that,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: and we have catalog that they don't show up in
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: our record. But so, for example, you know the Pacific
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: blue Marlin record. I'm probably gonna butcher this is I
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: think is like fourteen or thirteen hundred change. There's a
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: really famous story about something called Choice Monster. It was
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: like at eight pound blue marlin that was caught in Hawaii.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: It was on a charter operation. And if I understand
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: this correct, it was a father and daughter duo. Okay,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: the father was captain of the boat, the daughter was
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: the mate, and they hook up to this giant thing.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: You know, I think I think it Inhaled. I think
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: they were I could have this run, but I think
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: they they were fighting like one hundred and fifty pound
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: tune and this thing just pow drived on, yeah, and
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: just sitting there gagging itself on this.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: So but you know they've got this inexperienced charter. You
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: know that's just out there.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: They had a marlin eat one hundred and fifty pound tuna.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it might have been a hundred fet
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: but it was like a big dam tuna. I mean
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: it wasn't like, you know, a football like that. You know,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: these things that big have a ma all like huh yeah,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: So the rod gets passed around this and that and
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: the other. So it was it wasn't an idea of
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: a record, but it was brought in and weighed on
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: a certified scale. And there's a great picture of it,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: you know it. It looks like a rectangle. Rectangle is
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: so big. Yeah, but we know about these things, you know,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: we can say, well, you know, for for our rules
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: in terms of what we consider ordering an ethical you know,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: the biggest Black Marlind ever killed is you know, one
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: thy five hundred and sixty, you know in Cabo Blanco.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: We know that there are others been caught in long
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: lines or in nets and things like that.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so those those kind of those those freaks that
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: fall outside of angling rules would still in some way
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: because we want to know so that at some point
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: in time someone could refer back and be like, man,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: whatever was going on? Then one A, this is the
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: optimistic view. We're somehow now producing bigger fish than we've
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: ever known to be produced, or more likely, we just
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: are not seeing that happen anymore.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: The difference I think with the boon and crock is
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: that probably shows up somewhere on their website or on
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: their if they do a yearbook or whatever. Those other
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: fish aren't going to show up. But we know and
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: we have records of them. So when somebody says, well, well,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: that's the biggest fish blue marlin ever caught, we say, well,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: with the caveat. According to the idea FA rules, there
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: have been X number of fish had been caught either
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: by commercial gear or not compliant with the idea favorables.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: Except because no, I.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Think there is value in terms of knowing you know
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: the size or quality of animals you know in the
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: water and on land for sure.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: How often do you guys find a record that you
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: later learned to be fraudulent or illegitimate, like I remember
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: what it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: be crookedness, like I remember. I can't remember if this
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: is IGFA or a state thing. I don't remember this
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: what state it was. But there had been this long
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: standing there's long standing channel cat record, and there's an
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: old photo of this guy standing there with a channel cat. Well, someone,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: some brilliant person a couple of years ago had the
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: idea of why not count the rays on its fins,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: which you could see in the image was a blue cat.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: It was a blue cat. Yeah, so all along the
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: state record Channel Cat was just because a guy caught
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: and settled Channel Cat. And then only later did someone go, like,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: you know, one, two through four five, I came here
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: with the numbers are well, like one is like eight
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: to nine fins and one is twelve to fourteen fins
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: or something like that, and some other indicators, and like
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: we had it all wrong. And then it was kind
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: of funny because the race started all over again, and
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: so people were breaking Channel Cat records monthly or whatever
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: because they had to build it back up. Like a
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: guy comes in, he's got a four pounder, that's the
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: record five pounder, and then it built back up to
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: some you know, realistically hits that plateau. Yeah, it built
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: back up to some realistic measure. But how often in
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: your own things do you get where someone like Munda's
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: submits as legitimate and then your investigation finds that it's not,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: or you in time realized that there was a misunderstanding,
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: and in a in an old record falls away.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: So in terms of sending old records. Several of those
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: things happened to me very early on my career Idea
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: F I was hired in two thousand and three, and
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: I'm a fly angler.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: I like the saltwater fly fish.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: And you know, there were people on staff that did
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: it a little bit, but not really like me. And
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: we got this application from I think Vera Cruz, Mexico
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: were somewhere in Mexico for a new tarpain record on
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: I can't remember the tip at six pounds, twelve pounds,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I forget what it was, but the line sample came
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: in the bite tip. It was priss, the wetness scuff
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: on it, and the fly looked like you plucked it
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: out of a fly shop and just tied it on.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: And anybody that's ever caught a tarb, their mouths are
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: rougher than hell. I mean, they just wear through leader
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: tear up flies. And I said, you know, guys, I've
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: got hesitations with this, and I'm not going to mention
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: who it was, but one of the people in the
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: review staff said, well, you know, you can hook it
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: up at the very corner of the you know, top
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: of the jaw and not have it rub I'm like,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: maybe maybe not so I as new So Jason overrode,
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: I'm keep my mouth shut. We've found out a year
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: later that this guy had submitted this record erroneously or
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: false falsely. It was a commercially captured fish and he
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: wanted to impress one of the staff members working at IDFA.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: What Yes, that was the motivation. That was the motivation.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Money right, no money in it. But so he was
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: a representative.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: So we have an international Committee of representatives before we
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: ever had we didn't have members until the seventies.
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: We were in a membership organization.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: But when we were first founded, we had what we
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: called scientific affiliate groups like American Museum of National History,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Chicago Field Museum, things like that. Obviously going to our
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: scientific roots, but we had this international committee of representatives,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: men and women from different parts of the world that
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: were really dialed in in their different you know, locations.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: So if a record catch came in and they were
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: able to go over and kind of help validate it,
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: they could do that. They could give us news what's
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: going on with their fishing, et cetera. So this this
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: guy was a rep if I remember correctly, and I'm
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: almost positive was, and the woman that we managed the
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: record for a REP program was a very nice person
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: and apparently, you know, he became enamored and he thought
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: that submitted he was going to help him get a
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: date with her. I don't know, I don't know, but
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: what a weird.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: That's that's a kind of a roundabout way to get
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: a date.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: It was.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: It was like first step that comes a big tarpin.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know, but then you have you
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: have things that happened that were kind of like your
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: blue cat. So forever, up until like two thousand and six,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: there was this mystery out there is there another species
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: of marlin, the hatchet marlin out there?
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: These guys are a hatchet marlin.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: They were saying, it looks like a white but it
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: doesn't look like a white, but it looks a lot
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: like a white marlin. And what it happened around that time,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: through genetic analyzes and being able to go through kind
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: of morphometrics, you know, looking at you know, counts of
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: different things, we were able to definembly determine that you know,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: it was a different species that had been previously described
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: called round scale spearfish. The holotype, which is the first
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: organize as i ever caught in catalog actually burnt up,
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: so they never had it, and for a long time
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: scientists actually question the validity of that species. But through
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: different techniques, primarily genetic, we were able to determine that
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: they are indeed a valid species, and they look a
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: hell of a lot like white marlin. You can tell
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: a couple of different ways. If you can look at
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: the underside of the fish, the distance of the event
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: or the anis as well forward of the antle fin
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: compared to marlin to you know, all spearfish, or you know,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: quite far forward. And then also if you look at
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: kind of the bony elements underneath the gill, you know
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: they're called branchiostacles, they go back a lot further. So
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: once you've looked at this a little bit, you can tell.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: But obviously when this happened, we were like, oh crap,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: we need to go back through our records, and we
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: were able to go back and determine that a couple
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: of the white existing white Roland records were actually round
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: scale spearfish records. Oh yeah, and there's another cool story.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: So so then you got to do if the guy's
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: not dead, you notify them. We know tofy them. Yeah, absolutely, Like, hey,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: you know that record fish you got?
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry, sorry, we had a good tell. We didn't know.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: We didn't know at the time, But then there's other
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: kind of cool things where people don't know. So another
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: great story is there was a girl we have junior
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: angler records. She caught a white marlin and I believe
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Madeira submitted it. And this was you know, you know,
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: post two thousand and six when we're able to kind
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: of dial in and I started making kind of a
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: personal mission of mine to be able to identify these fish.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: But this fish was laying on the deck of the boat.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: You could see the underside of it completely well, so
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: you could see where the anis was in relations to
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: the antal fin. You could see the length of the branchioscules,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: and I was like, dang, this poor girl is not
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: going to get a white marlin record. Well, she ended
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: up getting three records. I think she got the all
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: tackle round scale spearfish record, she got a line class
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: record for Atlantic spearfish, which encompasses round scale, long bill
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: and Mediterranean and she also got a junior record. So
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: instead of she got one record rejected, but ended up
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: getting three out of it.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, tell me about the line the line class deal, Like,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: how do you break that down? So because you got
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: so you just said, then yeah, all tackle and then
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: line class.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: Yes things.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all tackle the one people really watch.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: No, I mean all tackle is you know any fit
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: An all tackle record is any species of validated fish.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: It's got to be scientifically validated. It's got a weigh
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: at least one pound, but there's a caveat to that.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: It's also got to be within the upper fifty percent
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: of its maximum recorded weight or size, and it can
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: be caught on any size tackle up to one hundred
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: and thirty.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Back up on that last thing, it's got to be
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: what now.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: A the upper fifty percent of its maximum no known side.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: So if you catch some obscure fish out there and
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: it's only a two pounder, but we know from the
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: scientific literature that you know, it grows to fifty pounds.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Because some dead one that washed up on the beach, Yeah.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Or something like that, we won't accept that, I think so.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: And that's for for line that breaks up to one
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: hundred and thirty pounds, then you have line class.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: You get two, four, six, eight.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Twelve, sixteen, twenty thirty fifty eighty one thirty okay. And
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: so that way you're able to tear catches based on
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: the breaking strength of the line, same way we have
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: it with with fly fishing as well. You got two four, six, eight, twelve,
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: sixteen and twenty. We don't acknowledge anything ever twenty.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: First, so does a record snook yep for four pounds yep.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: There is a record snook for six pounds yep. Okay, yep,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: and then on up to one hundred and thirty pounds
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: per ten no.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: No. So historically what we did was we kind of
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: we kind of.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Place the maximum line classic kind of the maximum known
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: size for a fish. Let's say, I think snook back
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: in the day, I think might have been an eighty
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: pound line or something.
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: But others.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: But what we did over a decade ago is we
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: retooled the way we accept records for line and typic class.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: New Zealand or New Zealand. Australia, so the Game Fishing
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: Association of Australia, which pre dates the IGFA by two years.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: They were founded in nineteen thirty seven. They've had a
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: book a rule in the books forever that the fish
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: has got away, I believe at least as much as
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: a line breaking strength. Okay, so if you catch a
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: six pound fish, you know, it's got to be on
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: six pound line. You know, you can't catch up a
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: three pound fish on six pound line. We went through
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: because we were we it was our fault at the IGFA.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: We had started kind of a recognition program for you know,
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: who could catch the most records any year or over time.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: You know, and we thought about it and this is great,
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: you know, getting people interested. But what we found is
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: that people were actually going out and purposely trying to
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: you know, just high grade fish over time. You're only
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: only out one record per line cross per day, but
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: you would see people that were, you know, the twenty
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: pound line class is vacant.
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: Let's say, for.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know, large amouth bass something like that. You know,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: you'd see a record come in for a pound and
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: a half largemouth pass on twenty.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Pound line because no one had submitted.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that large amount bass is probably
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: a bad one because that's a very popular category.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: We started to get a lot of flak, you know,
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: because you'd see it, you know, in the monthly publications.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: You know, like these.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: People are but no fault to their own because you know,
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: we created the system. You know, we were we were
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: we were awarding people based on number of records.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: So what we started to see.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: Was really a numbers game rather than a quality game
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: and something that would would you know, denote more kind
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: of angler achievement you know, out of the catch. So
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: we instituted it now so that the weight of the
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: catch has to be at least half of the breaking
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: strength of the line class or the typic class you use.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: So you got to have the there's got to be
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: almost this is a very improper use of the word infinite,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: but it's got to be almost like like an infinite
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: number of IGFA records.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: Gosh, I wish I had the exact numbers off the
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: top of my head, because there's only a select number
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: of species that are eligible for line and typic class records.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: So you can't go out and catch some obscure fish
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: and say I want it to be the line class record.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: It's only for you know, a certain suite of species.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: So you spill out what it is, Yeah, what would
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: be the dude, Like, who's the dude that has the
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: most IGFA records or what is the number for the
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: person with the most.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Marty Eurostiki who is a trustee emeritus, really really great guy.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: I think he's got well of.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: A four hundred one individual Yeah, yeah, yeah, it'd be
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: hard to keep track of.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: He's well, he was a doctor in his former life,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: so he's very methodical about things.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: So okay, so he so he's got a bunch of
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: these line class things and press.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: Typic class you know he was.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: We we just unrolled a new angler recognition program called
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: our Master Angler program. So we've got different things at
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: the IDFA that you know, people can go after Tonowledge
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: angling skills. So obviously you've got your records. You've got
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: all tackle records, you've got link records, you got line
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: class typic class records. But we also have slam and
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: trophy clubs. So in our trophy clubs, it's either trying
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: to get you know, or trophy clubs is instead of
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: you know, a record that builds over time and size,
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: we establish a benchmark. Okay, let's say a mahi, we
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: say is a trophy sized fish. If you catch a
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: mahi that size, that weight or corresponding length, you get
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: to be in that Trophy club, okay. And you've got
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: Grand and Royal Slam Club, So Grand Slam Club, you know,
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: you know, the big one down in Florida is an
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: insured Grand Slam bonefish sharpened permit, or if you're lucky
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: enough to catch a snug, that's an insured Supergland Slam.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: And we've got a variety for around the world. So
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: now we have a metric or a way to compile
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: these things all together to create what we call the
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Master Angler program. So it's over I believe, seven different categories.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: So you've got all tackle records, line class records, tippic
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: class records.
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: And all tackle length records.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: And then you've got slams and trophy clubs okay, and
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: then you've got bronze, silver, and gold in each one
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: of those categories. You get three in any one of
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: those categories, you're bronze. If you get six, your silver
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: nine year gold. Once you achieve gold in five of
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: those seven categories, you achieve Master Angler.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: Got you guys should open up like like a redneck
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: slam man where it's like we get we cats, you know,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: like you got to get all your catfish.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: We get we read horse sockers get We get people
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: saying that from time to time too, and you know
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with that. I mean sometimes when we're
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: out fishing, you know, I do a lot of you
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: know stuff in the Everglades and like, you know, up,
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: we got the ladyfish a Jackerville and let's say a
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: gaf top cat fishing, we'll have we'll have the slam today, the.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Less the less desirable slam exactly on the on the
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: record book thing. If an angler's out, let's just just
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: walk through someone that has never done this before. You're
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: out fishing and you catch can we do fresh water?
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: Sure?
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're out fishing and you catch what you think
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: has gotta be like the biggest northern pike anyone's ever
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: laid eyes on, and you you get it up, it's
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: alongside the boat, hasn't been touched, it's still in the water.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: You having to be fishing for whatever reason with two
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: pound tests, you know, and here's some you know, fifty
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: inch northern or whatever, and you're like, man, I feel
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: like this has got to be something. What do you do?
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: Walk me through what you do?
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: How do you do it proper? Well?
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: First of all, you're way ahead of the game if
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: you know at least a little bit about our angling
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: rules of what denotes an illegal cat versus catch versus
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: an illegal catch, and then what you need to do
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: is document it properly. So get that fish out of
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: the water. You know, we encourage live release if you can.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: You know that.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: You know, that'd be a big fish for libel. Some
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: boats might have it, you know, take that fish to
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: a place. It's got to be weighed on Terra Firma.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: So that's one of our rules. You don't have to
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: kill a fish for an IGFA record. In fact, over
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: half of our records that we get every year are
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: released alive.
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: But you can't.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: I want to pause on that one because we covered
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: this pretty heavily one time the Terra Firma. Yeah, okay,
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: we had a musky expert on the show and we
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: were kind of talking about the Muskie Wars.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: Which is, God, don't let me talk about that.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: We don't need to go down a musky rab hole.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: But we had a guy here to go down the
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: musky rabbit hole, and basically he was he was a
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: gentleman who had made it his life's passion.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: I think I know, this gentleman probably.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: To track down all the old crazy musky photos, right,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: all of the whatever the eighty inch musk, you know
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: what I mean. He was kind of like, how many
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: of these are actually out there? Can I find the
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: people that caught him? Can I find out what the situation?
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: How did they actually weigh it?
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: And he was going through the historic record of the
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: real famous giants where it's some picture of an old
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: man standing there and on the polaroid someone wrote, you know,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: when someone wrote like sixty pounds or whatever, right, and
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: he's like, who caught that? What really happened? How was
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: it weighed? Okay? Yeah, And we put that question to
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: him about why the Terra Firma. So when you got
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: your old rusty Zevko scale and you lift it up
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: in the boat, like, why that doesn't count?
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: Can you touch on that?
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: The only thing it's been time immemorial since certainly since
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: my tenure there, but I think before that too. The
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: only cabot we do allow juniors to do that junior
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: angler or the way they're fishing the boat, presumably just
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: because the rocking back and forth of it on the boat,
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: you know, and you can't dictate, you know, and and
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: and you know, sure if you're on a lake and
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: it's just still day and it's just lack, I mean,
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: there's no variation whatsoever. But you know, you could also
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: be out in three to six footers off shore and
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: you can't.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: You got to have a definable act.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that scale spring on the waves.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: So getting back to it, you need to document your fish.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: So photographs of the fish and make sure we can
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: determine its right species.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: Most of the time it's not a big deal, but oftentimes.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Do you have to have someone with you?
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: No, you don't. It's helpful.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: It's helpful to have somebody there as a witness, a
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: disinterested witness, or just a witness period if we have questions,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: if we can go back to it, because if what
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: we see in the application isn't satisfied and we can't
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: go back and query other people, we're probably gonna disqualify it.
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: But document it.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: So get pictures of the fish, you with the fish,
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: the scale that was used to weigh the fish, and
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: the scale has to be certified within twelve months, okay
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: with the catch, so it can be certified after that,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: it can be it can be. Then the very important
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: thing to do here is to cut five meters of
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: your main line off and lead that attached to your
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: entire leader setup and send that in because that allows
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: us to test the line and determine its true breaking
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: strength if it's a line class record, and we also
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: are able to measure the leader itself to make sure
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: it's compliant. We also need to make sure the hook
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: sets compliant.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: And don't don't mess with how you got, how you
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: got your terminal, your jig, your jig head or rapollo
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: or whatever. Just leave it all tight on and say
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: you can.
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: Leave it tight on.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know sometimes if it's like something super heavy,
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: you know, if we have a picture of it still
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: on there, you know we're fine. But you know, typically
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: the best thing is to send it all in together.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: Ye do that.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: So I caught my northern get it out of the water.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: I go up. I see some dude walking down the beach.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: I'm like, sir, would you mind taking a gander at
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: this fish?
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Absolutely?
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: Can I get your name and number? You take a
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: cell phone photo of it. I want to get your
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: name and number. I go to a scale. I can't
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: find a certified scale. I go to a scale, I
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: get the best measurement I can get. I take note
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: that I need to then get that certified. Yeah, and
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: then I I go on your website.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: Go on our website. You can you can apply digitally.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: We've got two great people in our Angler Recognition apartment.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: People ask questions all the time. I encourage people if
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: they have any questions on remotely going out, you know,
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: take a look at our record or at our rules.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: But if you're if you've got questions, call us. That's
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: what we're here for. We'll walk you through it. So
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: documenting that fish well and submitting it in time, so
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: within I think within the continental United States, you gotta
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: submit it within sixty days, and it's ninety days outside
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: of the country the United States for lining class records.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: To do that.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: But it's also important to know again ahead of time,
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: what constitutes a legal catch. I mean, your terminal tackle
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: may be fine, but you may have done something egregious.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: For example, let's say you and I are trout fishing,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: and you know you're you cooked into what we're sure
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: is going to be the new six pound Tibet brook
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: trout or whatever, and this thing is giving you a
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: hell of a time. And you know, I'm like, okay,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: this thing is like heading for the hills that stop
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: it over there. So I run, you know, twenty yards
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: ahead of you, and I get ahead of it and
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: I net that fish.
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: That's not legal.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: You have to be within a rod's length of the
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: angler before assisting in landing the dead that's in the rules.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: And we had to do that because we were seeing
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: videos of you know, guys that were fighting fish and
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: the guy is like, wait the hell downstream netting this fish.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: This fish has not been brought to hand by the angler.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: You can get help in landing the fish from other people,
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: but they've got to be there with you.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: You know, we see the same thing.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: You know, uh, you know and believe you know, in
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: permit fishing, you know, typically on these penglis, you've got
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: a senior guide that's pulling, and you've got the more
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: junior guide that's kind of sitting amidships kind of to
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: like chirping in your ear about how to strip and
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. And you know, here's an example I
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: can bring up that you know, you'll see, you know,
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: two errors happen at one time.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: You know, you know, he calls out a fish and
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: you make a.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: Cash and you get hooked up, and the mate has
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: noticed that the twenty nine wind is turn your line
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: into a piece of abstract art. So he frantically is
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: undoing it so there'll be no knots and he's able
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: to clear the line. You know, before you know, you know,
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: fish takes off. That's a no no okay number one,
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: because once the fish takes the fly bait lore or whatever,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: nobody but the Anglican touches fadery line. But then what
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: you also see quite a bit in video.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: So your body can't, like you said, your body can't
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: tighten your drag.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: No and do anything like that.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: But what you'll also say is the same well intentioned
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: guy because he wants to catch fish for these people
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: he just saidden. No, he'll jump out the secondary guide
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: and go and walk about with his net and net
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: this permit, you know, any which way he can do it,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: any any which way he can do.
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: It any which way you can do it. Not legal, okay?
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And then do you have let's say the state
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: considers a rule that you don't consider it has to
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: conform to state law. What do you mean, like, for instance,
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: like it would These people are all dead now, so
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: they're not gonna get in trouble mile Man and his
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: bodies had they used to buy this almost like a
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: catch pole, a cable catch like a picture dog catcher,
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: cable catch pole. Yeah, yeah, they would when they were
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: fighting salmon, huh, they would hook it with that cable
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: grabber like a tails you know, yeah, tail snare, yeah
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: he could. Those against state law, tail snares were illegal. Yeah,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: so they would hook all their fishers, not all, they
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: had those tail snares, and they're always hauling fish out
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: with tail snare rather than trying to get them on
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: a net. So let's say you don't contemplate tail snares,
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: but state law contemplates tail snares. I use a tail snare.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: Am I thrown out because I broke my Absolutely?
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: So our rules are very explicit, and that any catch
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: that said variance with state, federal, whatever laws governing that
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: body of water that fishery cannot be submitted.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: For an IGFA record. Yeah, I can't do it now.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: I got a question about the line stuff. And I
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: bring this up only because my buddy's Seth who I
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: work with. He was just turning me onto this new
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: braid in terms of the fishing line arms race. There's
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: this new braid that I can't remember what he's telling me. Man,
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: we were looking at it. There's braid. It's got basically
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: the diameter of eight like traditional eight pound power pro
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: let's say, but the stuff twenty one pounds?
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: Oh easily. Yeah.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Now, and remember we used to use maxima when we
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: used to fish a lot of salmon and steelhead in
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: the Great Lakes and the rivers. We would always use
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: four pound maxima mono. Yeah, four four pounds for tippet
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: material use. We use maximum mono and guys would point out,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: You'd be like, well, maximum mono is so strong, Guys,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: like you ever measure it? Because four pound isn't four
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: pound maximum mono is like it says four, but it's thicker. Yeah,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's like so and so six.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the strongest four pounds, it really. It's the
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: thinnest ten pound out there or something like that.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: Is so do you ever take your stuff and do
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: you take your line and put it on a machine? Okay, So,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: so when you calculate the breaking strength it's not what
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: the spool says.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: We've got a commercial grade materials sester that when we
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: bought this back like ninety nine, costs like fifty thousand dollars,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Like it's commercial grade you know stuff.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: So yeah, we do.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: We test every liner tippet sample that comes in for
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: a liner tippet sample, and what we do is you
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: soak it. We have a protocol you soak it for
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: a minimum of two hours. Because most people don't realize this,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: but monofilament absorbs water, okay, and that actually weakens the
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: breaking stream, and so we want.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: To give soak.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: It makes it worse, and a good soaking makes it, yeah,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: a little bit weaker. So we want to give you know,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: a benefit of a doubt, you know, and you know,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: and kind of simulate what you know, it's like when
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: people have line in the water all the time. And
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: then we'll break the line. Typically we will do five
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: breaks with a line class sample because it allows we
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: have plenty of line to work with and we'll get
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: the average standard deviation out of that. And then with tippets,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: because tippets don't have to be any longer than fifteen inches,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: that allows us normally to get three breaks out of it.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: We'll do that. But the other thing that we'll do too.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: You know, sometimes we'll see people that are doing things
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: called line class shopping. Okay, you know, they're out for
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: say the twelve pound record. They catch a fish not
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: big enough for the twelve pound record, but they're like,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: this is big. It's bigger than the sixteen record. I'm
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: gonna submit it for that. You can't do that. Oh really, no, no, no, no, no,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: you can't do that. So we'll do They'll state, yes,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: I use twelve pound line and we'll break it in,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: you know, or sixteen pound line and we'll break it,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: and sure enough it's consistently twelve.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: But they said they're used twelve.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: We're like, okay, we break out micrometers, and we know
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: we can go through the internet and we can find
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: out the diameters. We just bout every line out there,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: so we can ground truth. Now that said, if you're
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: fishing and you're unlucky enough because you're using that maximum
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: and you're a four pound over test, let's say into
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: the eight and that fish is big enough to beat
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: the fish in this and eight, we do allow that
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: to happen. God but you can't. You can't shot down.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: What brand and maybe you can't do this whose line
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: is most consistently off?
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: Uh God, I don't.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: It's been so long since I've been at the hell
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: of that, and I wouldn't want to throw anybody on
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: the bus. But what I'll say is there there are
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: not a lot of line manufacturers out there that are
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: really purposely making line that is true to what the
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: stated breaking strength is.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: Okay, there's only a few out there that do it.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I never thought of it as like,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: I never thought of this as just outright dishonesty. I
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: just whatever. I didn't really think about it too much,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: but was just pointed out to me. But this new
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: braid stuff, man, it's expensive, but it has bought enough
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: to spool a couple of reels in it.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I'm excited when when the I mean, how
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: long have you been using braid?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: For long long time?
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: Okay, so when you first when it first came out.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: I remember when it came out. I remember like the
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: one argument I could hear against it. Plus, dudes, I
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: was still living in braid came out. We were fishing
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: tons of salmon and steelhead in the in the tributaries
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: to the Great Lakes, And I remember one guy. It
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: was early enough that some guy was saying, if you
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: get hung up, if you get your boot hung up
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: in that braid, you know, you're basically going to die.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: Die there.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: People were definitely afraid of it's actually it's actually it's
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: gonna saw into your spool.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: You know. It's like you tangle your waiters up that
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: braid and you basically just had to resign yourself to
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: slow death in the river. And I remember, like it
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: was that early and we started running.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: The other thing.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: People were just complaining about, oh my god, can you
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: see what a spool of braid costs? But in the meantime,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: if you were fishing a lot, like for me doing
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: flats fishing or backcountry fishing, mono the life of it,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: it doesn't go bad. No, it would twist up and
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. So like I would change out a
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: given reel a spool of a mono on a given
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: reel on a rod.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: Three or four times a year. How many times you
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: go to like braid lasts forever.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you go to your graham and Grandpa's house and
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: you go in there looking for a ride and in
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: the mono is just like it's okay, Yeah, sure, man,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: my dad's got.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: To right here.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: That my buddy Brody, he was telling me, is killing him.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: He wants to drag it out of the nest. He says,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: there's a bird nest against our building that is full
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: of braids. Oh wow, we're talking about whether that bird's
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: gonna get wrapped up in that braid or not. He's
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: thinking about he's trying, he was the other day. He's
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: trying to weigh out like do you meddle and get
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: the braid out of there? Or do you let him
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: be and just have his braid?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which makes me curious where that braid even came from.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's one of the things that you know,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: we're we're really adamant about. I mean, we've got this
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: excellent education program that we have. You know that we
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: use fishing really as a carrot to teach kids about
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: the outdoors. Get their hands wet, you teach him about
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: the natural world around them. You know why aquatic habitats
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: need to be healthy, why we have regulations for fisheries,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: why it's important to follow them, Why there's this safety.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: And we've got a variety of different curricula. But one
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: of the things that no matter what we're doing, whether
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: it's a school event, summer camp, is making sure you
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: dispose of your line properly. You know, that's just one
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: oh one right there?
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: Do you do you even? I guess probably in the
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: salt water you find more applications for it. But and
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: maybe this is more of a testament to the fact that, uh,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: that I'm not broke all the time anymore. But I
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: only ever use I use braid and floral man. I
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: never touched monofilament.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: You know, monofilament is still the line of choice for
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: offshore fishing, you know, for for marlin and.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: Stuff like that. It's got stretch.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: Historically, you know, not the entire real you know, normally
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: it's a top shot of several hundred yards beneath it
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: is normally either Dacron or guys now really have gotten
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: into kind of the modern jel spun, you know, braid braid,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: you know Dacron's braided line, but you.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: Know the modern braid stuff. Uh.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: But there's still you know a lot of utility for
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: that because that line's got a lot of forgiveness and stretch.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: You know, if there's bigger fish, I fish with a guide.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: In the Everglades.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: He's probably the most famous fishing guide from Biscayme Bay,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: the Keys, every glazes. His name Steve Huff. You know,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: he's the guide of guides. He's won, you know, so
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: many bonefish, tarp and tournaments. He's got records, et cetera.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: To this day. He still fishes on his bait casters monofilament,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: and even if he's fly fishing. You know, we all
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: think that, you know, floor carbon is more abrasion resistant,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: and it's certainly a little bit thinner diameter than mono,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: so maybe you're fulling the fish a little bit better.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: He won't use anything but fifty monofilament for his bite
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: tippet when he's fishing for stuff. Yeah, I come there
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: with forty flour carbon. He looks at me sideway, he's like,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: you know, doesn't like it. No, he's like, fifty, dude.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: I do a lot of vertical jigging, you know, Yeah,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of vertical jig and you're like in one
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: hundred feet of water, you're like interviewing the bottom of
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: the ocean. There's a rock, there's mud. Yeah, there's like
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: a little ledge that feels like some coral that was
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: that was the same transmits I transmits information.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: I used to love to, you know, jig for stuff
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: like cambery jacks and bottom fish and stuff like that.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: And I remember doing it back in the the.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: Mono days fifteen or twenty mono and you know, you're
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: just like, maybe that's bottom yeah, you know, or you know,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: I got a I do have a bite, you know,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: and you switch the braid and like every little thing
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: it was just trans.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: I hooked him the right side of his mouth.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: Could tell through the braid.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: Total total game changer. Yeah, you know.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: The the one thing I would like to see, and
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: I think there are some companies that are doing it. It
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: would be cool to see braids because the thing that
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: I like about braid the most is that it's it's
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: it's thin diameter and debt and stretch and it holds
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: up well, cast well and stuff like that.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: But I don't need, you know, so I'm using.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: Predominantly if my inshore fishing, I'm using say a power
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: Pro fifteen pound braid. I don't know what the diameter
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: to that is like six pounds or whatever. I don't
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: need fifteen pounds because it breaks probably closer to twenty
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: or thirty. But once you get thinner, it makes it
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: harder to tie. Not I just end up getting cut
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: to my hands.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: And stuff like that.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: But what I'd like to see is, you know manufacturers
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: that are creating braid that is true to what the
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: breaking string stated is because you get that benefit of
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: you know, the no stretch and things like that. But
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: you know you're fishing by you know what they say
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: it is. Yeah, you know, I just remember back before braid,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: I'd be fishing for snucking the mangros. I'd be using
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: you know, eight to twelve pound monto filament and you
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: get a lower hung up and the mangroes and just like, well,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: it's just.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: Like trying to pull it out with a rock. Yeah.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: Now with braid, duck your head and just pull back.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: It's coming back at you.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many scars I got opened
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: down my fingers from braid to fishing line though.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like there's a little bit of occupational hazards
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: and that stuff.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know that a lot of the fly
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: guys too. You know, the evolution for backing for fly stuff.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: You had dak run and you had something called microme,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: which is thinner, remember that, you know, and it was softer.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: But now a lot of guys are just using straight
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: up jel spun polyethylene, the same stuff that's I use
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: power pro. You know a lot of times, you know
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: thirty and man, if you're fishing a lot, you know,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: and you know, bone fishing and whatever, and you've had
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: a lot of fish getting to the backing and your
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: the level winding back at the end of the day,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: you're like, whoh, yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: So what what what about? Not asked you bout that
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: I wish I had asked you about With IGFA.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: Well, you covered the thing that we're most known for
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: is is uh obviously our history with record keeping and
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: rules and stuff like that. But what I tell people
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: is that IGFA is so much more. Okay, really comes
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: down to three solid pillars. We've talked about one, which
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: is kind of the angler recognition records, slams, trophy clubs,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: things like that. We do a tremendous amount of work
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: and conservation around the world, and we're doing work on
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: everything from it to marlin. You know, we've got extensive
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: programs that we're doing for billfish. I've mentioned, you know,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: our IGF a great marlin satellite tagging program, the biggest
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: of its kind in the world, open access. We have
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: co chaired the last two international billfish symposia. We did
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: a three year deep dive with the FAO and the
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: Caribbean looking at the value of billfish resources there. We're
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: constantly weighing in on these regional fisheries bodies for billfish,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: you know, around the world, because nobody else is really
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: doing it or very few people. There are other people
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: doing as well, but we're doing a lot for billfish.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: We've got some cool stuff coming down the pipeline strip marlin.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: But we're also at the other end of the food
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: chain as well, you know. So forge Fish is really
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: this emerging paradigm fishery management.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, doing We've got something.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: Called the forge Fish Research Program.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: Actually I'm missing that workshop to be here for this
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: right now.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and what we do we started this in
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, is we've FWC. Our State agency is just
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: phenomenally well run and they've got a great research arm
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: and they have a tremendous amount of what they call
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: Fisheries Independent Monitoring program, you know, capturing fish with saints
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: and things like that, from I think seven different estuaries
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: around the state for like over twenty years, and they've
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: got just this amazing backlog of data, especially on forge
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: fish species. So we put together this public private program
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: where we invite grad students and their major professors to
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: sit down once a year with the people from the
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: Fish and Wildlife Research Institute. They talk about the data
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: that they have in terms of forgefish and what their
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: research priorities are, and then we fund two fellowships at
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: twenty thousand dollars apiece for them to do work for
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: twelve months with these scientists to really gin out some
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: incredible research on forge fish that actually several of them
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: have had direct management applications.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: The other cool thing about.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: It, there's been probably three or four of these grad
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: students that have gone on to have now promising careers
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: in state in federal fisheries work. So we do that.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: We've been working on a number of other species. We
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: finished up a study about a year ago with golden
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: dorado in South America, you know about the fish there,
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: I mean that species has like gone through the roof
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: in terms of popularity with visiting English, but we don't
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: know anything about them. So we did in genetic study
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: the results will be out on that soon, trying to
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: look at the population units. And then we said we
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: did kind of the same thing with rooster fish in
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: Central America that's their iconic and short fish, and again
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: nobody knew anything about their population structure. You can find
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: them from Cabo San Lucas, you know, down to Peru.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: Are they one contemporarious unit, you know, where you have
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of mixing, Are there basically subpopulations, et cetera.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: And we were able to find that indeed, there are
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: distinct units. And you know, the management application to that
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: is if you deplete a specific unit, you're not getting
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: influx from other areas.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: So you know, you can do that, we might not
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: refill yep.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: So we do a lot of the conservation and the
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: other thing that I'm just incredibly proud of is our
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: education team in the last fifteen years has just done
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: some amazing things in terms of taking these programs that
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: we've defined that we're basically housed only in our HQ
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: in South Florida and now exporting that to the world.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: They've got something called a Passports to Fishing program and
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: it's super cool. It's been translated into seventeen different languages.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: We've got in fifty different countries, every continent except Antarctica.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: Maybe you can help us with that one.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: But basically what it is is a fishing kit in
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: the box, twenty five rods and reels, and then educational matts,
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: you know, translated to talk about the importance of quatic habitats,
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: why regulations are important, how to know if a fish
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: is legal, different types of tackle, safety whatever. They go
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: around with a little passport and they got to go
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: through each one of these stations to get checked off.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: Then they get a rod and reel and are allowed
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: to fish for a couple hours. And we're able to
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: repeat that around the world. And that's been so cool.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: So our reach in terms of being able to, you know,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: not only get the next generation of anglers on board,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: but these are our next generation of environmental stewards as well.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: So exceptionally proud of the work that the education is
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: doing our education department. So the thing I always tell
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: people about the IDFA, you know, we're known for records,
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: but really, if you're remotely into fishing, there's something for you.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: You know, we've got education, we've got conservation. We've obviously
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: got the records and rules scene, you know where the
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: angling Historian. You know, we've got the world's biggest repository
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: of angling related you know, works in the world with
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: books and videos and photos. We're doing a massive undertaking
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: with that, you know, right now, to modernize that.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: So there's there's a lot to it. You know. When
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: it comes to the IDFA.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: And you guys are a membership board. You know what
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: we keep saying, IGFA, I don't know that we've that
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: I have said, it's the international you did.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: In the very beginning, I did ideah, okay, internet where
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: the International Game Fish Association. We're a membership organization. We've
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: got a variety of membership levels from you know, a
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: twenty dollars digital level to I think a fifty dollars
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: annual level where you get the world record book, a
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: lifetime membership level. But you know, take a look, come
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: to our website, take a look at what we do,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: and get involved. Break some records, break some records, get involved.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: What I tell people I don't care what you like
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: to fish for. If it's trout, if it's bonefish, if
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: it's billfish, if it's whatever. There you're going to be
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: able to find an organization out there that is doing
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: good work to ensure that you've got fish out there
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: for yourself and for your future generations. I just tell
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: people to get involved, whether it's IGFA or another group,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: get involved, be part of helping ensure that recreational anglers
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: have a voice in terms of advocating and getting policies
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: that are beneficial for recreational anglers and our resources at
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: the same time.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not suggesting like I don't want to
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: act like they have to be at odds, but they
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: don't have to be at odds. But commercial, the commercial
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: fishing industry has a political arm. I mean, the commercial
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: fishing industry has lobbyists and they make campaign contributes to
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: now too though. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, but
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: I mean historically the commercial fishery has been politically more powerful. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: not that they need to be at odds with recreational angers,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: but it would make sense that recreational anglers look at
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: how do we play the political game. And how do
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: we sort of stand up for our interests in the
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: future of our sport the same way that that other
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: people who rely on healthy fisheries do. It's an important
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: voice to have in there.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so two things. I'm glad you brought that. First
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: of all, IDFA is not an anti commercial organization. We
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: understand that people need to be able to get fished.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: To seem we just want sustainable practices out there. You know,
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: we've actually worked with commercial interests on projects before. You
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: know that we had inshoe Alliance. But you're absolutely right.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: You know, twenty years ago, recreational anglers, there were groups
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: out there. Obviously there were powerhouses out there like Coastal
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: Conservation Association, American Sport Fishing Association. You know, the IDFA
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: was just starting to get into the conservation stuff. But
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: a number of groups that were out there and had
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: a voice, but we were fragmented.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, the commercial interests were so well coalesced. You know,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: they had their lobbyist, they had and what was developed
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: I think a little over twenty years ago was what's
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: now called the Center for Sport Fishing Policy, and this
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: is the leadership in the recreational fishing and voting space
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: in the United States. So you've got groups like the IGFA,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: cca ASA, and then you've got major manufacturers like National
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: Marine Manufacturers Association, Yamaha, et cetera. And we meet and
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: we prioritize policies and we speak off one sheet now
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: and we have the activists and the lobbyists to go
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: to the hill and get what we need, you know,
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: and it's been fruitful, you know where we're starting to
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: see a change.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks thanks to the work. And once again, Jason Schratweiser,
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: he's afraid I'm going to mess it up there, just
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: like the and just like Budweiser, you nailed it with
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: the international president of the International Game Fish Association eight
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: number eight President number eight. Yeah, you don't do like
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: number eight shirts and stuff like that.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: It's funny though, because like I said, there's been eight
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: presidents and eight chairman. My chairman's eight and number eight
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: and I'm number eight. So okay, yeah, and you've been
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: in that role hol long twenty twenty. I joined IJFA
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and three, is conservation director.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, So once again, International game Fishing or fish I'm sorry,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: International Game Fish Association when you catch a giant, follow
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: the rules. Get hold of these boys. They'll get you done.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: They'll get you a plaque, right.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, to get a certificate in our publications.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: And if you want to catch, who's the dude you
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: got to catch, if you want to get the most,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: he's got four hundred. What's his name, Marty Orski. You
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: gotta catch Marty. I want to hear from some listener
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: who passes up Mary and passes up Marty with four hundred,
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: more than four hundred new records on the books. All right,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: thanks guys,