Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 478: The Untold Story of ECW’s Rise & Fall with John Philapavage

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BPS 478: The Untold Story of ECW’s Rise & Fall with John Philapavage · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Bulletproof screen Writing Podcast, Episode number four
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  Speaker 2: the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how
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  Speaker 3: Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
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• 1:33
  Speaker 3: Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
• 1:38
  Speaker 5: Shooting me today is John Philipavage. John is the co
• 1:41
  Speaker 5: director and producer of Barbara City, the unauthorized story of
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: Extreme Championship Wrestling. John, how are you?
• 1:49
  Speaker 6: I'm well, Thank you for having me man.
• 1:50
  Speaker 7: Oh, my pleasure.
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: So the last time we saw each other was at
• 1:53
  Speaker 5: the premiere of Barbara City.
• 1:57
  Speaker 6: Correct and full disclosure because he's being awesome. I wasn't
• 2:02
  Speaker 6: positive I had met Dave, and I probably added like
• 2:04
  Speaker 6: a conversation with him, but and he noted to me
• 2:07
  Speaker 6: I was running around like completely overwhelmed, trying to like
• 2:10
  Speaker 6: help run that chet. So I thought that I that
• 2:15
  Speaker 6: I met Dave, but I did ask him off there.
• 2:17
  Speaker 6: If I met Dave, Yes, that would be April of
• 2:19
  Speaker 6: what twenty thirteen. We did that, so almost two and
• 2:22
  Speaker 6: a half years now. Yeah, I talk to you.
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I do remember that. And believe me, John, I've
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: been there, man, I know how it is. You know,
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: you go into you go into you know, you're doing
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: these events and it's just like everything blurs together, of
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: people and events and time and everything.
• 2:40
  Speaker 7: It just sort of all go meshes together.
• 2:42
  Speaker 6: That whole night was shut. It was a culmination of
• 2:46
  Speaker 6: like thirteen years of work and not like I shouldn't
• 2:49
  Speaker 6: even say it like that, It was, you know, got
• 2:52
  Speaker 6: the idea in February two thousand, started making notes. I
• 2:55
  Speaker 6: was working with Kevin, the other co director who worked
• 3:00
  Speaker 6: with me on this project. I mean he's a childhood
• 3:02
  Speaker 6: friend of mine. We were working together at a car
• 3:04
  Speaker 6: wash and I started, I think I wrote four names down,
• 3:06
  Speaker 6: and I said, hey, would you do this for me?
• 3:08
  Speaker 6: And originally it was like I wanted to write a
• 3:10
  Speaker 6: book because I was a writer, and we did you know,
• 3:13
  Speaker 6: quote unquote boy was videography. We were like, you know,
• 3:16
  Speaker 6: even in two thousand, I would have been I would
• 3:19
  Speaker 6: have just turned what nineteen that month? Actually I was
• 3:23
  Speaker 6: nineteen when I had the idea. I wrote four names down.
• 3:26
  Speaker 6: I don't even know that we interviewed any of those
• 3:27
  Speaker 6: four people actually I think one. I think one actually,
• 3:32
  Speaker 6: and yes, this was thirteen years later. And thirteen years
• 3:34
  Speaker 6: and one month later or two months later, we finish
• 3:38
  Speaker 6: it and like everybody that I ever know was the
• 3:40
  Speaker 6: air plus all these A meeting people I met through
• 3:42
  Speaker 6: the raising fund through Cakestarter, including yourself, And then I
• 3:47
  Speaker 6: had to, like, you know, so diy I had to
• 3:49
  Speaker 6: like help run the thing I was telling you off
• 3:51
  Speaker 6: there that I said to somebody like, Okay, we have
• 3:55
  Speaker 6: to do the Q and A. So I need to
• 3:56
  Speaker 6: find these people and like let them in. I told
• 3:58
  Speaker 6: them to come to this door and they could getting
• 4:00
  Speaker 6: cheese steaks, and one of the other people said, well,
• 4:03
  Speaker 6: I have to do this, and then other person said, well,
• 4:05
  Speaker 6: I've got to do this text thing. And so I
• 4:07
  Speaker 6: had to run down to Tony Luke's and get the
• 4:10
  Speaker 6: cheese steaks that we would promise the people for to
• 4:13
  Speaker 6: do a Q and A with me. So I didn't
• 4:14
  Speaker 6: get to have an ego moment and feel like it started.
• 4:17
  Speaker 6: I did to go get cheeseteaks and give them the
• 4:19
  Speaker 6: people and answer your questions. But it was but at
• 4:25
  Speaker 6: the point is it was like an amazing night that
• 4:27
  Speaker 6: I never thought that we would get to that point.
• 4:30
  Speaker 6: That was a big deal and like, you always want
• 4:33
  Speaker 6: to do more stuff, but it is one of those
• 4:35
  Speaker 6: things where you go, if I could just do this
• 4:37
  Speaker 6: one thing for the in public. I'm not for the
• 4:40
  Speaker 6: public because really, I mean, let's be honest, you're doing
• 4:43
  Speaker 6: a lot of it for yourself. You haven't urge within
• 4:46
  Speaker 6: yourself that you have to do. But it's amazing to
• 4:49
  Speaker 6: get not just the validation, it's a buying from people.
• 4:54
  Speaker 6: So just meeting all these people that inter like yourself
• 4:57
  Speaker 6: and interacted with online who showed up for it, and
• 5:01
  Speaker 6: they seemed like almost like they knew me, and they
• 5:03
  Speaker 6: were proud of me because they had interacted with me
• 5:06
  Speaker 6: so much over these months. But that was like this
• 5:07
  Speaker 6: really cool feeling, you know, to do able to do that.
• 5:10
  Speaker 6: But yeah, it's that whole night. It's like boats. I
• 5:12
  Speaker 6: have memories of it, and it's also this blur, well,
• 5:16
  Speaker 6: I just remember downloading somebody's I think it was the
• 5:19
  Speaker 6: torches per a reference torch. For those of you with
• 5:23
  Speaker 6: me this who don't know wrestling. That is one of
• 5:26
  Speaker 6: the major publications going back to the Ladies for Wrestling.
• 5:30
  Speaker 6: They did. Both Manuay Keller and Bruce Michell appeared in
• 5:33
  Speaker 6: the film, and they did like a two hour and
• 5:35
  Speaker 6: fifteen minute like a review of the film and kind
• 5:38
  Speaker 6: of a talk about history and different things. And I
• 5:40
  Speaker 6: dropped my friend Gene off around I think two forty
• 5:44
  Speaker 6: five in the morning, and I drove back to the
• 5:46
  Speaker 6: Leigh Valley listing of that and that for some reason,
• 5:48
  Speaker 6: that memory of just being by myself and being like
• 5:51
  Speaker 6: shatisfied that I had completed something, it's something that like,
• 5:55
  Speaker 6: it's that solitary thing that sticks with you, you know.
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you know, John, I heard a story that
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: on the set of Quentin Tarantino's last film he had
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: to get cheesesteaks for for everybody.
• 6:05
  Speaker 7: So don't feel bad.
• 6:08
  Speaker 6: Oh, I'd like to have in his career, I'll tell
• 6:09
  Speaker 6: you that.
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: So you know, Jenna, I always usually sort off with
• 6:14
  Speaker 5: the same question for everybody, and that question is could
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: you just give us a little more about your background
• 6:20
  Speaker 5: and you know how you got started in the doing film?
• 6:23
  Speaker 6: Sure, I let's see me. I was born in eighty
• 6:30
  Speaker 6: one and I ended up very quickly living in Allentown, Pennsylvania, which,
• 6:35
  Speaker 6: for you wrestling fan tour off the history geeks. I
• 6:39
  Speaker 6: grew up like three blocks from ag Hall, which is
• 6:42
  Speaker 6: where wwws which is now WWE you pay their television.
• 6:47
  Speaker 6: In fact, my first repling show ever was in I
• 6:50
  Speaker 6: think nineteen ninety's September of ninety at ag Haul and
• 6:55
  Speaker 6: the reader I'm going on about this is because through
• 6:58
  Speaker 6: an alleyway, which it was like half a block away,
• 7:00
  Speaker 6: there was an alleyway that kind of ended right near
• 7:03
  Speaker 6: my row home yard. Through that alleywhary if you went
• 7:08
  Speaker 6: directly from my yard through that path was a house
• 7:11
  Speaker 6: that we nicknamed the Carrien Mansions. And that's because when
• 7:15
  Speaker 6: I was two, my mom took me on a walk,
• 7:17
  Speaker 6: and when you're two, like, you can't go very far.
• 7:19
  Speaker 6: So we went around the block and there was a
• 7:20
  Speaker 6: little boy playing in a plastic swimming pool that was
• 7:24
  Speaker 6: blue and it had alligators all the way, and I
• 7:26
  Speaker 6: thought that was the coolest and I said, Mom, I
• 7:29
  Speaker 6: want to play with that kid. But I was the
• 7:31
  Speaker 6: grearly attendant, so I probably hid behind her, and luckily
• 7:35
  Speaker 6: Joline Ken's mom was outside that my mom talked to
• 7:38
  Speaker 6: her and I ended up meeting this gentleman Kevin Karenan
• 7:42
  Speaker 6: went out too, and that's been my creative partner I
• 7:45
  Speaker 6: ever think, And wow, we just passed July here. I
• 7:49
  Speaker 6: met him in July when we went to thirty four
• 7:51
  Speaker 6: and now thirty two years that we've been attached to
• 7:55
  Speaker 6: each other in one way or the other. So yeah,
• 7:58
  Speaker 6: we got in it. But we were doing creative projects
• 8:00
  Speaker 6: when we were kids. We used to make movies with
• 8:04
  Speaker 6: over the shoulder of VHS cameras. Yeah yeah, well, kenn'dad
• 8:11
  Speaker 6: ball like, can't Dad trild He's like, I'm actually sitting
• 8:17
  Speaker 6: in their property right now. He's like the second father
• 8:21
  Speaker 6: to me. They they not only helped kind of raise me,
• 8:24
  Speaker 6: but they still they still take care of me even
• 8:27
  Speaker 6: now and look out for me when we do holidays.
• 8:30
  Speaker 6: A lot of times I go to their house. I
• 8:33
  Speaker 6: at least spend two hours with them pretty much every holiday,
• 8:36
  Speaker 6: regardless of whether keV or has sit there Emilator in town.
• 8:40
  Speaker 6: Our studio, like I said, is on their property. And
• 8:44
  Speaker 6: I don't mean to make it like they're rich. By
• 8:46
  Speaker 6: the way, when people in me sadus, they always think
• 8:48
  Speaker 6: that Cat's family has a ton of money. They bought
• 8:51
  Speaker 6: when we were six. They bought this dilapidated old like
• 8:55
  Speaker 6: farmhouse property like he was just a mas And there
• 8:59
  Speaker 6: was like this building that like in real people's sense
• 9:01
  Speaker 6: would have been condemned. It just wasn't like a public
• 9:04
  Speaker 6: public building. There was a spring house because there used
• 9:07
  Speaker 6: to be a natural spring on the bottom. And I
• 9:10
  Speaker 6: remember being told very specifically you were not allowed to
• 9:13
  Speaker 6: go in there because if you open the door at
• 9:15
  Speaker 6: the top, there was nothing there. But there was aill
• 9:18
  Speaker 6: four And I remember being sixteen and keV took me
• 9:23
  Speaker 6: out there, and I didn't know. I hadn't really been
• 9:27
  Speaker 6: spending time around his house, so I didn't know what
• 9:29
  Speaker 6: I remember. Even at sixteen, you know, you're near adulthood.
• 9:33
  Speaker 6: I remember saying them like like like yeah, we're not
• 9:35
  Speaker 6: supposed to be going here, Like it was weird to
• 9:37
  Speaker 6: me that he was taking me there. Kid, he's not
• 9:39
  Speaker 6: an mischievous guy. And he opened the door and like
• 9:42
  Speaker 6: his dad had completely refurbished it. The guy's were like
• 9:45
  Speaker 6: a Diy handymas who like always had a side project
• 9:48
  Speaker 6: for a weekend stuff. I mean, completely changed it into
• 9:52
  Speaker 6: this like cool like it reminds me of like Lord of
• 9:54
  Speaker 6: the Rings.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 10:05
  Speaker 6: Like the kind the kind of place that you like,
• 10:08
  Speaker 6: the secret world you fall into. And it was like
• 10:11
  Speaker 6: the place where he'd go to write children storage I'd
• 10:14
  Speaker 6: smoke his pipe because he used to smoke the pipe
• 10:16
  Speaker 6: at the time. And we took that shit over right away. Dad,
• 10:20
  Speaker 6: they been ours if we were sixteen. You know, we're
• 10:23
  Speaker 6: going on almost twenty years and I am sitting in
• 10:26
  Speaker 6: it right now, and I love this place. So this
• 10:29
  Speaker 6: is where we were. We started making t vhs, vhs
• 10:35
  Speaker 6: editing on VCRs, know that stuff. Oh yeah, you would
• 10:37
  Speaker 6: do that. We made a comic book when you were
• 10:41
  Speaker 6: ninety four ish, nineteen ninety four, ninety three. We were
• 10:45
  Speaker 6: really into making comic books. And I tricked one of
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: my uncles and getting us like a computer program, which
• 10:51
  Speaker 6: seemed amazing at the time. I'm sure now if you
• 10:53
  Speaker 6: looked at it, it would look like like MS did
• 10:56
  Speaker 6: a first version of MFPA, you know. So we had
• 10:59
  Speaker 6: a comic book. We used to take videos with the
• 11:03
  Speaker 6: whole family. They'd let us to write it and kind
• 11:06
  Speaker 6: of direct it, and then they would just kind of
• 11:07
  Speaker 6: push it nudgets and directions, and then we started just
• 11:12
  Speaker 6: making like billy short films and I convinced keV to
• 11:17
  Speaker 6: do the bar wire fitty Grodger to be cured. I
• 11:20
  Speaker 6: had a fascination with the ECB Arena and lastling in general.
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: And now this poor guy, who has never ever, you know,
• 11:28
  Speaker 6: paid for a ticket for wrestling and and I was
• 11:32
  Speaker 6: forced to watch it when he was a teenager, knows
• 11:34
  Speaker 6: far more about wrestling than the average, you know, the
• 11:37
  Speaker 6: rank and file wrestling fan who had been an obsessive fan.
• 11:39
  Speaker 6: So I guess I'm starr for that. But at the
• 11:42
  Speaker 6: same time, it's fun because now I can do wrestling
• 11:45
  Speaker 6: jokes with him and he gets it so so.
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: But basically, you know, I can imagine when you actually
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: sat down, you know, with Kevin and actually like put
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: on wrestling for the first time.
• 11:57
  Speaker 7: I could imagine his response. They would have been telling, like,
• 12:00
  Speaker 7: what the hell are we watching?
• 12:03
  Speaker 6: He was always he was never kind of sending about it.
• 12:07
  Speaker 6: He would put his foot down here and there. I
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: remember there was like a WCW pay per view in
• 12:12
  Speaker 6: the early nineties, one of the ones where they were
• 12:14
  Speaker 6: working with New Japan. Some one was like from the
• 12:18
  Speaker 6: Tokyo Dome and like anything that was from a foreign
• 12:21
  Speaker 6: culture was fascinating. The Eddyquetde. I just thought foreign cultures
• 12:25
  Speaker 6: were so interesting because they weren't my daily life. And
• 12:29
  Speaker 6: I remember I got him like watching stuff on Saturday
• 12:31
  Speaker 6: mornings when I'd sleep over and then we'd wake up early,
• 12:34
  Speaker 6: and like he wouldn't tell me like churn that crap
• 12:36
  Speaker 6: off or this or that, and you make comments about stuff.
• 12:39
  Speaker 6: So like I was always trying to manipulating him into
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: being a fan, slight a friend because I didn't have
• 12:44
  Speaker 6: a wrestling thread for years, and you know, it was like,
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: especially by the early nineties, like it was uncool again.
• 12:51
  Speaker 6: It was like you you were a loser if she
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: watched it. Well, I kept watching, so I did to
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: keep it quiet, Dave, I couldn't tell people, but Kevin
• 12:58
  Speaker 6: Art knew that I was always trying to manu it
• 12:59
  Speaker 6: to I mean, so I tried to get in there,
• 13:02
  Speaker 6: like buy the tape, and that's when he was just like,
• 13:05
  Speaker 6: I'm not a fan of this, and then no, I'll
• 13:08
  Speaker 6: sit in a room if you watch it. I'll be
• 13:10
  Speaker 6: nice to know. And then flowly but surely I got
• 13:12
  Speaker 6: him to you this project and over the expanse of
• 13:16
  Speaker 6: thirteen years off and on, you know, now I get
• 13:19
  Speaker 6: a kick out of the fact that like he's he's
• 13:22
  Speaker 6: friendly with Mike Johnson, the Wrestling Reporder, so like he'll,
• 13:28
  Speaker 6: uh kets this gimmick where he texts me random things
• 13:33
  Speaker 6: where his he pretents his blog is called the Outsider,
• 13:36
  Speaker 6: and the gimmick is that it's a person who doesn't
• 13:38
  Speaker 6: really understand wrestling here and isn't a hand but reports
• 13:42
  Speaker 6: on it. So anything that Mike puts on his feed,
• 13:45
  Speaker 6: he'd just like makes a joke of it and texts
• 13:47
  Speaker 6: the city. So hopefully Mike doesn't look at it or
• 13:51
  Speaker 6: can I'll be in trouble.
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, you know, it's funny you mentioned that
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: there's that thing kfabnews dot com that I always.
• 13:59
  Speaker 7: At the first time, I was so I was like,
• 14:00
  Speaker 7: what the hell is this? Have you seen that?
• 14:02
  Speaker 6: You know? Who showed that to me?
• 14:07
  Speaker 8: I see, that's pretty much kind of where he got
• 14:09
  Speaker 8: the gimmick, although like I believe his idea, Like I'm
• 14:13
  Speaker 8: sure it existed, but Kevin wouldn't know you didn't spend
• 14:16
  Speaker 8: it free time usually, Like I think one of the
• 14:20
  Speaker 8: people he said yes to on Facebook when.
• 14:23
  Speaker 6: We he had a lot of people trying to Facebook
• 14:26
  Speaker 6: Fred ind during the film because I was everywhere, and
• 14:30
  Speaker 6: I was saying his name everywhere because I did do
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: all the media he would. He did I think two interviews,
• 14:36
  Speaker 6: and I think they were both with Mike Johnson because
• 14:39
  Speaker 6: we're friendly with Mike. Through through making the film, we
• 14:42
  Speaker 6: became friendly with Mike, and so Mike we kind of
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: pressed him into it and they were both like in
• 14:50
  Speaker 6: persons because he would just bad alone it if it
• 14:53
  Speaker 6: was on the phone, but like Mike was there and
• 14:54
  Speaker 6: had his like dad like can I do this? But yeah,
• 14:58
  Speaker 6: he was trying to get else. Yeah. I only know
• 15:02
  Speaker 6: about it because I guess he saw it because one
• 15:05
  Speaker 6: of the sands he said yes to on Facebook was
• 15:08
  Speaker 6: posting stuff and he kind of went down the rabbit
• 15:10
  Speaker 6: hole one day and when we got to the studio
• 15:13
  Speaker 6: to work on on something else, like this is after
• 15:15
  Speaker 6: Barbarre City, he he showed this to me and he
• 15:19
  Speaker 6: and I was just like, is that what you got
• 15:21
  Speaker 6: that idea or something? And You're like, no, but it's
• 15:23
  Speaker 6: the same thing. I think I'm just going to scale
• 15:25
  Speaker 6: their ideas, like joking. But yeah, I'm aware of it
• 15:28
  Speaker 6: because because he's the one who showed it to me.
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: Oddly enough, Yeah, I knew who showed up to me
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: was the Blue Mini and I love Brian.
• 15:38
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I hear the west man in the world. And
• 15:40
  Speaker 6: I'm sorry, like I always call him Brian, and I'm
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: not sure, I know in wrestling there's like, uh, it's
• 15:45
  Speaker 6: it's weird because like it's Brian's a personal friend of
• 15:48
  Speaker 6: mine and I'm not gonna call him by by, you know,
• 15:50
  Speaker 6: no offense to him. I'm not gonna call him by
• 15:53
  Speaker 6: like a pretend name. Who's my friend, Like I've been
• 15:56
  Speaker 6: to his house, you know what I mean. We're gone
• 15:59
  Speaker 6: on like road trips together or you know, for conventions
• 16:02
  Speaker 6: and stuff, like he's the best man in the world.
• 16:05
  Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I didn't have to say that.
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: You don't call him like, hey, mister Meanie, Like like
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: you know, you don't say hey, mister meanie, or should
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: I call you Blue?
• 16:12
  Speaker 6: I well, I don't. I don't remember my first guy.
• 16:15
  Speaker 6: I'm sure my first conversation with him, like I would
• 16:18
  Speaker 6: call him whatever he wanted, and then at some point
• 16:20
  Speaker 6: I just had a conversation. I think he introduced himself
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: as like Brian, Like I think some we were in there,
• 16:26
  Speaker 6: like post interviewing him, when he reached out to me
• 16:29
  Speaker 6: when we started the kickstarter thing, we just had a
• 16:33
  Speaker 6: conversation I'm calling by and he never like said anything
• 16:36
  Speaker 6: about it. And finally, just because I'm me and I'm
• 16:38
  Speaker 6: super detail oriented and I want people to be comfortable
• 16:40
  Speaker 6: with everything, I said to him, like is that you know?
• 16:43
  Speaker 6: Is that okay? Like I just feel weird calling out
• 16:46
  Speaker 6: like an actual friend of mine by this his name.
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: But if you think it's like direspectful, because within your industry,
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: you know, kind of like the thing where some guys
• 16:55
  Speaker 6: you might be really good friends or the guy who
• 16:57
  Speaker 6: are a heel in a company and if you're if
• 17:00
  Speaker 6: you're if he gets your comp tickets to get in
• 17:02
  Speaker 6: the front row, he kind of expects you to boo him.
• 17:05
  Speaker 6: You know. In fact, he wants you to really give
• 17:06
  Speaker 6: it to him because that's his jobs, you know. So
• 17:10
  Speaker 6: he did ask me to do something like that. I would,
• 17:12
  Speaker 6: But you know, fortunately I became friends with the guy
• 17:16
  Speaker 6: who's like never going to be a heel in any
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: room he ever stepped into, so I don't have to
• 17:20
  Speaker 6: worry about things like that.
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, Just as a little side story, Uh,
• 17:26
  Speaker 5: one time when I when I was helping King Kong Bundy, Uh,
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: and uh, A friend of mine was training under him
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: at when he owns in wrestling school and I would
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: come and help set up like the chairs and stuff
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: like that. And then I then he was like, hey,
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: he helps up the ray and I was like sure,
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: you know, I I'll help out.
• 17:42
  Speaker 7: It was for free whatever.
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: So finally they came to me one day and they said,
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: we want you went into an angle where this this
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: like this heel attacks a fan. So this is where
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: my friend was going to be a fan next to me. Right,
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: So here's the thing. Okay, so we're sitting next to
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: each other, my friend and myself, and one of their
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: heels is coming out and he says and.
• 18:06
  Speaker 7: He cheats to win.
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: Right, So my friend like, now he has all his
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: friends of family there and he didn't tell anybody about
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: this except for me.
• 18:14
  Speaker 7: Now I was in on this. So he gets up
• 18:17
  Speaker 7: and he yells, that's bullshit. You're a cheating motherfucker, because
• 18:21
  Speaker 7: he says blah blah blah.
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: So he ended up getting into a brawl with this
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: heel and I have turned and his fiance and everything
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: are looking at him like what the fuck is.
• 18:30
  Speaker 7: Going on here?
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: And it was just I couldn't stop fucking laughing, and
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: they ended up, you know, scuffling in the ring.
• 18:37
  Speaker 7: It's tree, he broke it up, this and that, But
• 18:40
  Speaker 7: it was just it was hilarious. I don't know.
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry that story really had much to what we
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: were talking about, but I thought, I.
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: By the way, this is primarily a filmmaking podcast, right, Yes,
• 18:54
  Speaker 6: most of your listenership have no idea what we're talking
• 18:57
  Speaker 6: about right now.
• 18:57
  Speaker 7: Oh oh, they probably tuned out already.
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: They probably he heard me talk about, you know, wrestling
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: by now they're like, oh, well, well.
• 19:04
  Speaker 7: We'll come back next week, Dave. But but no, but
• 19:08
  Speaker 7: this is glad.
• 19:09
  Speaker 6: I'm such a channel danger. Well that's great. Those are circumstances.
• 19:14
  Speaker 6: What are you gonna do?
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: You know they're gonna hear you talking about King Kong Bundy.
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: I mean like, oh, well he did work Richard Pryor
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: at one point. So maybe Dave is a point here,
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: But you know, this is this is film centric, you know. Uh,
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: but I mean we're you know, we're talking about the
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: documentary and you know, uh, it just happens to be
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: about wrestling.
• 19:29
  Speaker 7: So I just want to show that story, you know.
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: Uh, personally, I think a lot of viewers will love
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: this because I actually have requests to do more things
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: about documentaries, so.
• 19:39
  Speaker 6: Uh, I'm a bag man.
• 19:42
  Speaker 7: Yeah, so I know people will we'll definitely be interested
• 19:44
  Speaker 7: in this.
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: And you know, uh so I wanted to ask you
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: is you know, as we talked about your documentary Barbari City,
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: you know, how did you go about finally starting to
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: put this all together?
• 19:55
  Speaker 6: Uh?
• 19:55
  Speaker 7: You know in those initial stages.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back, throw a word from our sponsor
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: Meaning like, you know, how did you get start putting together? Like, Okay,
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: I have a list of people I want to talk to.
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: Did you know how did you start going about you know,
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: reaching out.
• 20:15
  Speaker 7: To these people?
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: Okay, let's see here. I am not good with brevity.
• 20:21
  Speaker 6: I'm going to try to condense this because it is
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: a thirteen year story. Oh let's wait at least second
• 20:27
  Speaker 6: sort of springer tail at first, Like I said, I
• 20:33
  Speaker 6: think I said this on the podcast and not when
• 20:34
  Speaker 6: we were talking beforehand. I had a list of like
• 20:38
  Speaker 6: four people like I wanted to write a book about
• 20:41
  Speaker 6: my like almost like a Hunter s. Thompson esque like
• 20:45
  Speaker 6: fam journal going to the arena and why it was
• 20:48
  Speaker 6: important to people, like it was a cultural thing. And
• 20:50
  Speaker 6: I've always been fascinated with sociology and I was one
• 20:53
  Speaker 6: of those people. When I was finally old enough to
• 20:55
  Speaker 6: and I got my license, we go to the In fact,
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: the first two times O war to the arena, like
• 21:01
  Speaker 6: my aunt drove me there with like two or three friends.
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: I just wanted to go to ballely I didn't get.
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: I was going to think they didn't get their life
• 21:07
  Speaker 6: and straight away, I don't know, it's weird now for
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: me to like think back why. I just think it
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: was just I figured, I'm like, they're not gonna like
• 21:16
  Speaker 6: let me try to part, and I don't have money,
• 21:18
  Speaker 6: so like why bother. So it wasn't until I was
• 21:21
  Speaker 6: eighteen and I could drive myself down and regardless, we
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: would just stand in line outside and like, I know,
• 21:29
  Speaker 6: it's the status thing going to sit ringside and you
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: don't have to show up until five minutes before the show,
• 21:34
  Speaker 6: and you know this guy like John Bailey, the straw
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: hat guy take the tickets. So you go in the
• 21:39
  Speaker 6: side door and give them a hug and all that stuff,
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: and that's a low well and cool, and I'm sure
• 21:44
  Speaker 6: that I had that option back then, I would have
• 21:46
  Speaker 6: taken it. I eventually ended up taking an option actually
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: now that I think of it, But at the time
• 21:52
  Speaker 6: I thought it was really neat to get in a
• 21:56
  Speaker 6: car at ten in the morning, take the long way,
• 21:59
  Speaker 6: so get down there around you know, eleven thirty noon
• 22:03
  Speaker 6: and be part of this kind of like carnival outside,
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: especially in the later days. By the time I started
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: driving down with friends in later ninety nine is when
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: I actually started driving down, people were already lined up,
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: like I like we would show up. The one time
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: I think we got there by like eleven thirty, we
• 22:23
  Speaker 6: were nowhere near the first people on line. Outside of
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: the area. We were probably the thirtieth people in line, frankly,
• 22:31
  Speaker 6: and I saw some crazy things in that line, you know,
• 22:35
  Speaker 6: I think maybe only one or two things. The very
• 22:38
  Speaker 6: final ECW Arena show, I actually stood line by myself
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: and I had a camera and I shot footage, and
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: I think maybe a total of ten seconds made it
• 22:50
  Speaker 6: into the film proper when we released it. In one
• 22:55
  Speaker 6: of the scenes is actually like what I'm thinking of,
• 22:57
  Speaker 6: which is that like people in line set fire to
• 23:01
  Speaker 6: a bunch of like hardboard and discarded wood because in
• 23:07
  Speaker 6: that there's kind of this mythology about that area. It's
• 23:10
  Speaker 6: really not a rough area. Like if you go a
• 23:13
  Speaker 6: block like it's it literally is under ie ninety five,
• 23:16
  Speaker 6: and it's in kind of like this industrial kind of
• 23:19
  Speaker 6: dead end, which is kind of commercial, low rent commercial
• 23:22
  Speaker 6: space and industrial park ish stuff for a block or two.
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: But if you go to the other side of ninety five,
• 23:30
  Speaker 6: those are old ethnic neighborhoods. And I spent a lot
• 23:33
  Speaker 6: of time in that area walking around shooting footage in
• 23:37
  Speaker 6: two thousand, two thousand and one, two thousand and six,
• 23:40
  Speaker 6: and then in the year before the film ad like
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: carnivals in the summer, the kind of neighborhood that's still
• 23:48
  Speaker 6: like get permits to close off roads and like right
• 23:53
  Speaker 6: those moon bounces and like cavendors, Like it's one of
• 23:58
  Speaker 6: those neighborhoods where everybody kind of everybody and they all
• 24:00
  Speaker 6: know a guy who does something, so you can get
• 24:04
  Speaker 6: these kind of things, probably for free, and it's not rough,
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: Like I wouldn't die. I have a nephew, it's nine,
• 24:10
  Speaker 6: I'd take him and walk around that neighborhood, you know,
• 24:12
  Speaker 6: but on show nights, I wouldn't have taken him I
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: wouldn't have taken him too Swanson and written the street
• 24:18
  Speaker 6: I'll tell you that, you know they then I was
• 24:22
  Speaker 6: thinking of was these these like set stuff on fire
• 24:25
  Speaker 6: and there were chanting stuff, and I think partially that
• 24:28
  Speaker 6: made it into the film. There was another where some
• 24:31
  Speaker 6: underage kid was drinking like a handle of hard liquor
• 24:35
  Speaker 6: all day and then he was out of his head
• 24:38
  Speaker 6: and like slumped down against the post and people were
• 24:42
  Speaker 6: voyeuristically watching him, and then he threw up on himself
• 24:46
  Speaker 6: and just sat there and people were chanting things, and
• 24:51
  Speaker 6: it was both entertaining and bizarre, and now that I'm
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: older and kind of disgusting of people, but still something
• 24:58
  Speaker 6: that thus should be kind of documented. There's a good
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: set in the bad side all those things, and I
• 25:02
  Speaker 6: think we definitely kind of touched on that in the film.
• 25:05
  Speaker 6: If anything, my sadness is not being able to break
• 25:07
  Speaker 6: it through to more to more non wrestling stands, because
• 25:11
  Speaker 6: there's such like you even joked about, like there are
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: people who probably turned off the podcast because they're like, oh,
• 25:16
  Speaker 6: that's joy, not wrestling, and it's guided a wrestling thing.
• 25:19
  Speaker 6: You probably Yeah, there's still this meme that like Dana
• 25:23
  Speaker 6: Light brought it up this week. You know, people watch
• 25:27
  Speaker 6: wrestling must not know it's quote unquote fake, which is
• 25:29
  Speaker 6: a horrible word for it. It's kind of a sense,
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: I think, and I think that's where the emotional, mature
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: creation comes. I just don't think fans articulate it well
• 25:37
  Speaker 6: because we get emotional. But it's this idea that you
• 25:41
  Speaker 6: must be so dumb and low rent that you you know,
• 25:46
  Speaker 6: it's nineteen thirty and even con by the carnival that
• 25:50
  Speaker 6: comes through during the summer, and that's not really it,
• 25:53
  Speaker 6: you know, but unfortunately it has a bad name, so
• 25:56
  Speaker 6: we weren't able to accept one very in very small
• 25:59
  Speaker 6: more world victories to break it through to people who
• 26:03
  Speaker 6: just were fascinated by sociological events and niche culture. It's,
• 26:08
  Speaker 6: in my own opinion, if understood, and that's really what
• 26:11
  Speaker 6: the film was about. You know. I had some very
• 26:14
  Speaker 6: combative interviews, I think when I promoted this the second
• 26:19
  Speaker 6: time around. The first time around was kickstarted or raise money,
• 26:22
  Speaker 6: and you had to go the wrestling circuit is where
• 26:26
  Speaker 6: I kind of had to go. You know. So you
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: try to intellectualize and talk about whatever, but you also
• 26:33
  Speaker 6: have to be like, yeah, oh, your favorites'll be here
• 26:35
  Speaker 6: and all this stuff, and you're not lying. It's just
• 26:38
  Speaker 6: you're playing your audience. And I think by the time
• 26:41
  Speaker 6: it came out and I would read reviews, we got
• 26:44
  Speaker 6: a lot of positive reviews, but all the knocks would
• 26:48
  Speaker 6: be like, really to me, fanboyish wrestling centric critique, which
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: I think is generous. We're considering works people set up.
• 27:02
  Speaker 6: But that made me fabric that I realized that the
• 27:05
  Speaker 6: film was being completely viewed, ninety to ninety five percent
• 27:10
  Speaker 6: being viewed through the prison of pro wrestle and pro wrestlings,
• 27:14
  Speaker 6: and I think there was a massive difference between what
• 27:16
  Speaker 6: we did and say what WW you would put out
• 27:20
  Speaker 6: and call it quote unquote documentary or what you know,
• 27:25
  Speaker 6: even like high spots or are at video. You know,
• 27:28
  Speaker 6: I get messages like how come this is like this
• 27:31
  Speaker 6: because our video did this? And I'm thinking, like, no
• 27:33
  Speaker 6: offense to Rob, because obviously licensed footage from him, and like,
• 27:37
  Speaker 6: I have a fine relationship with Rob Feinstein, who the
• 27:41
  Speaker 6: order and operator of our video, but like that, he's
• 27:44
  Speaker 6: a wrest He's a guy who did a wrestling keep,
• 27:46
  Speaker 6: you know, And I don't I don't mean to say
• 27:49
  Speaker 6: that directively, but in comparison when you're comparing like a
• 27:52
  Speaker 6: documentary to like shoot interviews. I was really my beef,
• 27:57
  Speaker 6: you know, sorry, I'm jumping so far ahead and liked
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: your question. Frankly, Yeah, that's something that was like, So
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: so these interviews like became sort of combative for me,
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: Like it became kind of like this intellectual battle to
• 28:14
  Speaker 6: to make my point without being like a condescending dick
• 28:18
  Speaker 6: to people because I just I didn't have any more
• 28:21
  Speaker 6: patience for like one interview was like the question wasn't
• 28:26
  Speaker 6: I would get these questions. There weren't questions from these
• 28:29
  Speaker 6: wrestling podcasts that were like the Dudley is in ECW
• 28:33
  Speaker 6: and now they've already seen my film, so they've seen it.
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: Sort of take to task the idea that Paul Haymon
• 28:39
  Speaker 6: allowed to compet out of control, and you know, the
• 28:42
  Speaker 6: Dudleys would just go out there and bake fan and
• 28:44
  Speaker 6: it would result sometimes and you know, at the low level,
• 28:48
  Speaker 6: it would result in like yes, a lot of heat,
• 28:50
  Speaker 6: but a lot of it was just creating an atmosphere
• 28:53
  Speaker 6: that was kind of uncomfortable, unsafe for anybody who wasn't
• 28:56
  Speaker 6: like a male in their early twenties who wanted to
• 28:59
  Speaker 6: get drunk, like get crazy, and then it's worse. It
• 29:02
  Speaker 6: was like physical violence, you know. But the question would
• 29:06
  Speaker 6: be like Dudley's n c W was pretty crazy, right
• 29:10
  Speaker 6: where do you think it was crazier? Where the Dudley's crazier.
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: And sillier like the Elks Lodge, And so the whole
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: premise of the question, it's not even like a really
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: good question, it's more like, tell me how awesome it
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: was that these guys did this, And I don't know
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: that it was.
• 29:26
  Speaker 6: Also that's the thing, you know, like I don't I
• 29:28
  Speaker 6: think it was, you know, not even specifically the Dudley's,
• 29:33
  Speaker 6: but the things that they were doing I didn't think
• 29:36
  Speaker 6: were necessarily good for them. I think it built on
• 29:40
  Speaker 6: the cold fishness, it built on the mythology, but I
• 29:43
  Speaker 6: don't think that it helped them. Well, obviously it didn't
• 29:45
  Speaker 6: help them in the long run, you know. And I
• 29:48
  Speaker 6: don't think it would be done and well certainly wouldn't
• 29:50
  Speaker 6: be done today because of the standards of the Lake
• 29:52
  Speaker 6: School music. But also I don't think Paul Hayman would
• 29:55
  Speaker 6: do it even if those standards didn't ignis. I think
• 29:58
  Speaker 6: he would have realized and put the brakes.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 30:11
  Speaker 6: One thing I do believe when Paul Hayman has done
• 30:13
  Speaker 6: interviews and you know, for some reason Steve Austin like
• 30:17
  Speaker 6: really liked our film and anybody will sort of even
• 30:22
  Speaker 6: factively related to DCW he asks about and I always
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: rove off the road the one morning when I downloaded
• 30:27
  Speaker 6: the podcast to listen to him talk to Hayman because
• 30:31
  Speaker 6: to this day one of those fascinate new people that
• 30:34
  Speaker 6: I would ever research or wouldever cover in any way.
• 30:38
  Speaker 6: Everythink that'll be eighty and Elster he'll still be top
• 30:41
  Speaker 6: three at worst, and often brought bar bar Fitty to
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: him and he said that he had never seen it,
• 30:49
  Speaker 6: which man may not be true, but that's kind of
• 30:51
  Speaker 6: irrelevant to me. What's more relevant is that he said,
• 30:55
  Speaker 6: you know, people always talk about the Hayman kool aid
• 30:57
  Speaker 6: and all this. He's like, nob he drank the kool
• 30:59
  Speaker 6: aid to me. And you know, we kept damping up
• 31:02
  Speaker 6: things because part of the question, to Asten's credit, was about, like,
• 31:05
  Speaker 6: you know, the violence right the way we covered the violence,
• 31:08
  Speaker 6: and if he thought looking back, it was necessary to
• 31:12
  Speaker 6: go over the top, you know, did it hurt things
• 31:14
  Speaker 6: in the long run? And his answer I felt was
• 31:17
  Speaker 6: actually really honest for him, not that he's a liar,
• 31:21
  Speaker 6: but I think he knows how to speak to an audience,
• 31:22
  Speaker 6: you know what I mean. I think there's portions of
• 31:24
  Speaker 6: truth and there's portions or of the manipulation in anything says.
• 31:29
  Speaker 6: But he did say like you had to blamed with me.
• 31:32
  Speaker 6: But I was the one drinking. It's my money. I
• 31:34
  Speaker 6: was throwing all this money at this thing. And I
• 31:37
  Speaker 6: believe that, you know, I believe I talked to a
• 31:40
  Speaker 6: lot of people that are you know, that have been
• 31:42
  Speaker 6: close to him, are still closer than and you would
• 31:46
  Speaker 6: have become very similar to early on our Ah had
• 31:50
  Speaker 6: it existed, you know, it wouldn't have been a carbon
• 31:53
  Speaker 6: copy of that that that's the way he saw the
• 31:55
  Speaker 6: landscape going. And it also would have had a much
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: bigger dorcial art means to it. He said all that coming.
• 32:04
  Speaker 6: I mean, I still see that guy as a visionary.
• 32:07
  Speaker 6: If I had millions and millions of dollars and I
• 32:10
  Speaker 6: wanted to do something in the pro wrestling genre or
• 32:15
  Speaker 6: you know, or some version of that, I would be
• 32:17
  Speaker 6: throwing money at him and to join me.
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, when East W was in its death rows,
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: I remember he was talking about bringing in guys like Spanky,
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: Brian who was Brian Kendrick, guys like cmpunk. Uh he
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: actually had, yeah, Loki, he had. He actually was talking
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: about these guys before anybody had a clue who the
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: hell these guys were. And this isn't just him saying it,
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: because they all brought this up too, that they were like, hey,
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: you know Paul Hayman. One guy who I know Again,
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry going a little off topic here. One guy
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: who I always wondered why was in the c W
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: was Madman Pondo.
• 32:56
  Speaker 7: But that's a whole you know that.
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: I that's always something I'm always like, you know, I
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: don't get why he because he was wrestling in the nineties.
• 33:02
  Speaker 7: Uh yeah, and you.
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: Know a couple of always wondering, you know, why he
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: didn't go to c W so even just for a
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: tryout match. But anyway, but you know, but you know,
• 33:15
  Speaker 5: with the way that's like I said, change, you know,
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: I I know, you know in Japan they have a
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: league that is similar to that. I think it's Pancrease.
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: Uh No, it's not pancrease, is it?
• 33:23
  Speaker 6: Uh?
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: What it's because they do because they do like K
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: one fights and they do some of like mixed martial arts,
• 33:30
  Speaker 5: and they also have for wrestling bouts. And I can't
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: remember the name of the of the company right now
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: the top of my head.
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: Do you know what I know that those existed, Well,
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: Pancrets was the first uh pure n m A.
• 33:42
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that's yeah. As soon as I said, I know
• 33:45
  Speaker 7: I was wrong.
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: I'm rolling a lot on this podcast, by the way, John,
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: just so you know that's okay. I'll tell you my
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: audience knows not to believe a word I say about anything.
• 33:56
  Speaker 6: Well, they basically there's there were several promotions and I
• 33:59
  Speaker 6: don't even know that they really hissed in the form
• 34:01
  Speaker 6: you're talking about now, but that there were a bunch
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: like uh Nima and pro wrestling in Japan even like
• 34:09
  Speaker 6: even in the seventies before NIME like really truly existed,
• 34:12
  Speaker 6: like antni like you could always bring in people and
• 34:17
  Speaker 6: then smarten them up to quote unquote the business. Like
• 34:20
  Speaker 6: moham Ali is the most famous example, and he didn't
• 34:22
  Speaker 6: actually want to lose to Anocchi, which is why they
• 34:24
  Speaker 6: ended up having this horrible fight in Tokyo in seventy six.
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: But like that whole mixed martial arts and was a
• 34:32
  Speaker 6: gimmick that Poki did because he had been to Brazil
• 34:36
  Speaker 6: and trained jiu jitsu. But his goal was to make
• 34:40
  Speaker 6: it through the pro wrestling or the fighting discipline almost
• 34:43
  Speaker 6: is like a work. Okay, I'm trying to I should
• 34:47
  Speaker 6: speak for the rest of the audience. He wanted to
• 34:52
  Speaker 6: be part of storyline. That is the simplest way to
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: play it. Was it the idea that pro wrestling itself
• 34:58
  Speaker 6: was a fighting discipline in the way we think of
• 35:00
  Speaker 6: karate or jiu jitsu or something like that. And he
• 35:03
  Speaker 6: would bring these guys in and pay him a lot
• 35:06
  Speaker 6: of nugget to lose to him, the authentic people with
• 35:09
  Speaker 6: him their discipline, to further the idea with his fan
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: base that pro wrestling was a better fighting art. And
• 35:17
  Speaker 6: that's really how yes he started anyway, it was like
• 35:20
  Speaker 6: the boxer versus the wrestler, or you know this guy,
• 35:23
  Speaker 6: you know this guy does this versus tacklondo guy. So yeah,
• 35:26
  Speaker 6: I mean that's all you've been interestlined in Japan, you know,
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: That's what Pride was. People look at Pride, which was
• 35:32
  Speaker 6: the NMA organization that was huge in Japan and they
• 35:35
  Speaker 6: romanticize it. But like he go back, it's like a
• 35:38
  Speaker 6: lot of pro wrestling stuff, the pro wrestlers fighting NNA fights.
• 35:42
  Speaker 6: Some of the finishes were like somewhat manipulated, you know.
• 35:47
  Speaker 6: So yeah, that's such addictive.
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And as you know, just as a side note,
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: you know, guys like Sakaraba, you know, his whole style
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: when he fought and Pride was.
• 35:58
  Speaker 7: Japanese professional wrestling.
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: Like when everyone had their you know, they would say
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: like their name, their way age away and the style
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: his style was Japanese professional wrestling, and that's and that's
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: when he was the Gracie Hunter.
• 36:10
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, and there's a guy who comes from UWFi.
• 36:13
  Speaker 6: There were all these like splinter groups, they'd splintered off.
• 36:16
  Speaker 6: His little geek history before hit you and your your listeners.
• 36:19
  Speaker 6: In the eighties, there are all these like groups of
• 36:21
  Speaker 6: people who trained in the new Japan dojo who then
• 36:25
  Speaker 6: would be lower card guys, and then they'd split. The
• 36:27
  Speaker 6: group of them would splinter off, and they started like
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: the UWF, and there was a second u w F,
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: and then there was the u w FI, which is
• 36:34
  Speaker 6: something Universal Wrestling blah blah blah international, and they were
• 36:39
  Speaker 6: like early stages of warp shoots. Some of the fights
• 36:44
  Speaker 6: would kind of be like real fight ish thing where
• 36:47
  Speaker 6: they knew to finish, but they didn't care how it
• 36:49
  Speaker 6: got there. And some of it was just to mimic
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: and the idea was like, we're realer than pro wrestling,
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: like those guys are phony, but we're real kind of
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: a thing. And that's where Soaker Raba came from. He
• 37:00
  Speaker 6: would bounce in and out of New Japan, and then
• 37:02
  Speaker 6: he decided to be a straight up shoot fighter. And
• 37:05
  Speaker 6: you know, Pride to l I mean Fridle existed because
• 37:10
  Speaker 6: I think how he stayed last wind to Naka or something.
• 37:14
  Speaker 6: There's a wrestler, uh no, Kio, I'm butchering you now,
• 37:18
  Speaker 6: I'm there's somebody yelling at their iPod right now. There's
• 37:22
  Speaker 6: a gentleman who was who was in the e W
• 37:24
  Speaker 6: S II and and and it was their champion. And
• 37:28
  Speaker 6: then he had some big fights with when they were
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: falling apart. He had title matches with the Great Muda.
• 37:35
  Speaker 6: I took Tokyo dilm and then another one at least
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: one more with Hashimoto, who was another new japan star
• 37:42
  Speaker 6: in the nineties, and then his and then the First
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: Pride was him, and he was in terms of just
• 37:47
  Speaker 6: our wrestler who pretended to be a shooter. You know,
• 37:50
  Speaker 6: he had rudimentary skills for the times term and he
• 37:53
  Speaker 6: wasn't like you know, Sakaraba and the First Pride with
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: him versus one of the Gracis who trounced him by
• 38:01
  Speaker 6: the way, and the big comeback with Soaker Abo. You know,
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: he was a great honor. He was defending the honor
• 38:06
  Speaker 6: for wreckling. That would be quote unquote storyline of the
• 38:09
  Speaker 6: legitimate shoot promotions, you know, so they they would blur
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: lines too, even though they were they were a shoot
• 38:15
  Speaker 6: promotion in the way the pro wrestling would blur lines
• 38:18
  Speaker 6: and work fight.
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I know who you're talking about. It's uh, I
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: think it's pronounced that. No, no, you know, yeah, yeah,
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: it's Takata. But it's the first name is like nobook Kakato, Yeah, Takata,
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: you know, and uh, I know, yeah, I know exactly
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: what you mean, but uh but yeah, and you know,
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: that's when you know, all those promotions started, and I remember,
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: you know, a lot of guys just sort of coming.
• 38:43
  Speaker 7: Up at it, you know, through the ranks of Pride too,
• 38:46
  Speaker 7: and you know, uh.
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: That's we really to me, that was the last time
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: where you really saw somebody like the fighters who really
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: knew what they were doing. And when I hear's what
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: I mean that they they all had one style, meaning
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: like soccer, Rob hadjeb professional wrestling, Mirco crow Cop was
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: a kickboxer, you know, Igrovov Chansion, you know, he just
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: did heavy boxing stuff like that.
• 39:11
  Speaker 7: Uh, they didn't you didn't see like the UFC.
• 39:13
  Speaker 5: Now everyone sort of high has a hybrid style where
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: everyone does you know, day one is Brazilian jiu jitsu,
• 39:18
  Speaker 5: the next day is some Muay Thai. You sort of
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: get a jack of all trades and a master of
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: nothing train like that. While in Pride, I mean you
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: really could just tell just by the way the guy
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: worked that uh, the way the guy fought, the way
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: he moved, you know, whether he was like a gracie
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: guy or if he was a stand up fighter.
• 39:38
  Speaker 7: I mean it's just I really wish you would go
• 39:40
  Speaker 7: back to that in a lot of ways.
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: And you're watching some of the Japanese fights now, Uh
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: it's still is that way, because there's.
• 39:48
  Speaker 7: Dream right now.
• 39:49
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: And there's a guy that I, you know, absolutely love
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: to watch, and that is, of course someone I just
• 39:55
  Speaker 5: blanked out on his name.
• 39:57
  Speaker 6: That is.
• 40:00
  Speaker 7: Well, I forgot his name.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: But I I'll post it. I will post it in
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: the show notes. I promise I lest I can remember
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: it quickly, but I don't think I can so. But
• 40:22
  Speaker 5: you know, back to you know your you're you know
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: everything with you know you and in Barbarar City. You know,
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: this documentary was about the subculture of VCW and and
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: all the crazy things and professional wrestling, and people call
• 40:33
  Speaker 5: it fake, but you know their injuries are all real.
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: And you know, if you've got guys being paralyzed, you've
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: got some people bleeding and that I requires real stitches.
• 40:43
  Speaker 6: Well it's just an irrelevant argument to me because it's
• 40:46
  Speaker 6: it's like it's like, am I really liked the show's
• 40:50
  Speaker 6: sopranos And you kept telling me and I would get
• 40:53
  Speaker 6: like really into the storyline, and we were having a
• 40:57
  Speaker 6: discussion and you're like, you know, you know it's fake job.
• 41:00
  Speaker 6: You know they're not really mobsters. They're like fake. Yeah,
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: I know the actors. I'm really into the show, the presentation,
• 41:08
  Speaker 6: it's the way it's world building. They built it built
• 41:10
  Speaker 6: a world correctly. The narrative is good and like that.
• 41:14
  Speaker 6: I mean, you're doing a good job. You're giving the
• 41:18
  Speaker 6: answer that a lot of like intelligent people give. But
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: I even think that is almost too much of humoring
• 41:23
  Speaker 6: these people who say these kind of things, because what
• 41:25
  Speaker 6: they're inferring is that you're what they would call and
• 41:29
  Speaker 6: rest mark, which is there's kind of an offense term
• 41:32
  Speaker 6: for wrestling fans. It's like the dan the weird ways.
• 41:35
  Speaker 6: Certainly not to that degree, but it's it's derivative is
• 41:39
  Speaker 6: from the carnivals where and I've heard different stories about
• 41:44
  Speaker 6: like like uh of like kind of the mythologizing of
• 41:48
  Speaker 6: the term. I think Dutch Mantel in the late nineties
• 41:51
  Speaker 6: used to do a blog I read where he said
• 41:53
  Speaker 6: he had always been told that when a carnival would
• 41:56
  Speaker 6: come into town, they have a guy who went around
• 41:59
  Speaker 6: and acted as though he he was like poor and
• 42:03
  Speaker 6: homeless and needed food, and if you know, somebody was
• 42:06
  Speaker 6: nice enough to give him food, he would mark with
• 42:11
  Speaker 6: like chalk or something marking a very subtle action in
• 42:15
  Speaker 6: front of the beat to the house or the front walk.
• 42:18
  Speaker 6: And what that meant was not that they were a mark,
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: but that's what the term became. But it meant these
• 42:25
  Speaker 6: people are willing that they'll kind of fall for your
• 42:29
  Speaker 6: story kind of a thing. But you can go house
• 42:31
  Speaker 6: thousand get food or something like that. You know, there
• 42:33
  Speaker 6: was some sort of like manipulation there with him that
• 42:36
  Speaker 6: I'm that I'm kind of forgetting about, but that's one
• 42:39
  Speaker 6: of the old lives tales that's probably not true. But
• 42:42
  Speaker 6: to the great story, the point being is that mark
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: is this negative term meaning that you're a fool. That
• 42:48
  Speaker 6: is where it came from. When you when you when wrestling,
• 42:51
  Speaker 6: people call and it's not nearly as prevalent because it's
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: completely different. It's an entertainment industry now. But even in
• 42:58
  Speaker 6: the late nineties in ecw TW is like the last territory,
• 43:03
  Speaker 6: you know, because it wrestling needs to be in a
• 43:05
  Speaker 6: territory system, and it wasn't a national thing, and there
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: was some old school things as they stay interested into it,
• 43:12
  Speaker 6: and like calling somebody a mark is really like saying
• 43:16
  Speaker 6: that they're a dumb person who believes that you're you
• 43:19
  Speaker 6: know that you're Bald Mahony and you hit people with
• 43:22
  Speaker 6: chairs in your daily life, and you're not John Reckner
• 43:25
  Speaker 6: and you don't have like a day chop or something
• 43:26
  Speaker 6: you know, or a catered or a wife. You know,
• 43:29
  Speaker 6: you're a logical fe monster who only comes out every
• 43:34
  Speaker 6: third Saturday to the CW Arena and tried to kill
• 43:37
  Speaker 6: somebody for real. And I believe you that kind.
• 43:39
  Speaker 7: Of thing you're telling me.
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: Balsahony does not actually walk around blowing fire and any
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: pewool chairs.
• 43:47
  Speaker 6: Well, now, bald Mooning might, but it's another story entirely. Yeah.
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: Like the one guy who I actually could seriously see
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: living his gimmick twenty four to seven is New Jack.
• 44:04
  Speaker 6: I think there's some validuty to that. In a sense,
• 44:07
  Speaker 6: he's crazy, but he's crazy like a fox. I was
• 44:09
  Speaker 6: very impressed by him. He did his interview with me.
• 44:12
  Speaker 6: Now I've told this story before, but you have a
• 44:14
  Speaker 6: very different audience, and it's been at least two years.
• 44:16
  Speaker 6: I was very nervous about interviewing Jack, and originally we
• 44:19
  Speaker 6: were going to get him when we shot all the
• 44:22
  Speaker 6: footage at the Extreme Reunion, which was in a reunion
• 44:25
  Speaker 6: of a lot of the ETW guys, and they were
• 44:27
  Speaker 6: going to do a show. The point that they did
• 44:32
  Speaker 6: the show, it was like thirteen years twelve years after
• 44:35
  Speaker 6: it had shut down something like that, and we had
• 44:39
  Speaker 6: a room at the motel that they were all staying,
• 44:43
  Speaker 6: and we were grabbing people and doing interviews in our
• 44:48
  Speaker 6: motel room. Been across the hall, we kept scheering his
• 44:51
  Speaker 6: berth from yelling. You know, Robin who I mentioned before,
• 44:56
  Speaker 6: does this thing called shoot Interviews, which is kind of
• 45:00
  Speaker 6: a dying thing because of this podcast, because of what
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: we're doing now. Back in the late nineties. He didn't
• 45:06
  Speaker 6: create it, but he was one of the people who
• 45:08
  Speaker 6: figured out how to monetize it. And it was before
• 45:12
  Speaker 6: referring was very very open as far as the gentleman
• 45:16
  Speaker 6: wrestling talking as themselves the person and talking about their experiences.
• 45:23
  Speaker 6: He would film that and he would put it out
• 45:25
  Speaker 6: on phet tapes and so he was actually doing one
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: across the hall and the person yelling and carrying on
• 45:32
  Speaker 6: was Jerome Dung aka Knee Jack, and we put in
• 45:36
  Speaker 6: a call to somebody working with us who putting a
• 45:39
  Speaker 6: call to Jack to get him, you know, across the
• 45:41
  Speaker 6: hall did with us for thirty minutes, and he wanted
• 45:44
  Speaker 6: to know how much we paid, and now we didn't
• 45:46
  Speaker 6: pay for a single interview, so at that time he
• 45:49
  Speaker 6: didn't want to do it. And then through some connections
• 45:51
  Speaker 6: and machinations, we ended up sitting down with him at
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: one of these extreme whatever that promotion and became. They
• 46:02
  Speaker 6: changed their name it Shume Rising. That was it, and
• 46:06
  Speaker 6: he did the interview with me. Was the machete on
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: his lap and it was very I could Kevin did
• 46:11
  Speaker 6: not feel terribly comfortable while shooting this, and I part
• 46:18
  Speaker 6: of the gift of Jerome Young is that he's very charming,
• 46:22
  Speaker 6: but he never wants you to fully feel comfortable. That's
• 46:24
  Speaker 6: part of the control and the power of what was
• 46:27
  Speaker 6: once out of those situations. And so I pretty early
• 46:32
  Speaker 6: on said I pointed into the machete on his lap
• 46:35
  Speaker 6: and said, so is that? So? Is that for me?
• 46:38
  Speaker 6: I forget exactly what I said. I'm I don't look nervous.
• 46:40
  Speaker 6: I'm sure when I said it, and hopefully I pulled
• 46:42
  Speaker 6: it off well enough. Basically like, is that for me?
• 46:44
  Speaker 6: If this goes bad? And he just gave me the
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: crazy iron and then smiled, and I actually took me
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: at ease because It was one of those things where
• 46:53
  Speaker 6: I was like, he knows what he's doing. You know
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: what I mean, He's not, he's not, You're done. That's
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: with civilian, so to speak, in quotes. And we had
• 47:02
  Speaker 6: the best interview, and in fact, like I think I'm
• 47:05
  Speaker 6: a DVD, we actually put an extra like eight or
• 47:08
  Speaker 6: four and not even even fourteen minutes of like outtake
• 47:11
  Speaker 6: and stuff. He talked about so much stuff that had
• 47:13
  Speaker 6: nothing to do with our narrative, but Phil entertaining, and
• 47:16
  Speaker 6: we put it on there. He is by far the
• 47:19
  Speaker 6: person that non wrestling fans come to me and say
• 47:22
  Speaker 6: I found him so funny, Phil entertaining, so charming, and
• 47:26
  Speaker 6: all these things are true. And then I would say
• 47:29
  Speaker 6: we finished signed the release with no trouble, and who
• 47:32
  Speaker 6: made a joke going like you were nervous until I
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: sign this, you know, making it? You know officially we
• 47:37
  Speaker 6: could use it, you shore cans. We chatted, we were
• 47:41
  Speaker 6: packing up, and then he literally assaulted a fellow wrestler
• 47:46
  Speaker 6: in front of us, and it scared the shit out
• 47:49
  Speaker 6: of me. It was because you just see that visceral,
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: real violence in front of you. It's it's different, you know,
• 47:56
  Speaker 6: I think at times we become defensive pized, especially when
• 47:59
  Speaker 6: we see it through TV and things like that. You know,
• 48:02
  Speaker 6: violence is an interesting thing to me because, like I
• 48:04
  Speaker 6: love NMA. I used to work briefly for about a
• 48:07
  Speaker 6: year year and a half. I work, you know, part
• 48:09
  Speaker 6: time for an MMA website and seven and we used
• 48:13
  Speaker 6: to go we got press passes and I would be
• 48:16
  Speaker 6: media at rainside and do live blogging and stuff like that.
• 48:20
  Speaker 6: And it's kind of that same feeling. Watch MMA on
• 48:22
  Speaker 6: TV and guys get knocked out and they're like, oh wow,
• 48:24
  Speaker 6: that was great, and in me they're live like you know,
• 48:27
  Speaker 6: fee your media row generally these things is like ten
• 48:32
  Speaker 6: to fifteen feet away. It fits right there at cashin
• 48:36
  Speaker 6: and you get like these like light heavyweights heavyweights in
• 48:39
  Speaker 6: the ring and they hit each other. You feel vibrations
• 48:43
  Speaker 6: as them. They're that kick like I was fifteen feet
• 48:47
  Speaker 6: away and you cringe. It is very vitual and real
• 48:51
  Speaker 6: and in that moment you go like, oh wow, that hurts.
• 48:55
  Speaker 6: That doesn't just hurt. That could kill somebody. It's done
• 48:58
  Speaker 6: all you know like that, it's something different, and that's
• 49:01
  Speaker 6: kind of what I felt with Jack, like that, he's crazy,
• 49:04
  Speaker 6: like a fox is the best way to put it,
• 49:06
  Speaker 6: he knows exactly what he's doing at all times, and
• 49:09
  Speaker 6: the trick is to chart you but also make you
• 49:11
  Speaker 6: think that this guy might do something.
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so why did he assault that other wrestler?
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: That's the whole story. You know what, I don't even
• 49:23
  Speaker 6: know that I can tell it. I'll give you like
• 49:25
  Speaker 6: the cheap version, because the truth is that it was
• 49:27
  Speaker 6: very detailed and I used to be able to tell it.
• 49:29
  Speaker 6: But this happened like three years ago, and I don't
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: remember exactly there was a problem. Okay, so the other
• 49:39
  Speaker 6: this isn't like non it's not common knowledge, but it's
• 49:43
  Speaker 6: not like I'm not telling secrets out of school. There
• 49:48
  Speaker 6: had been a problem between Jack and Ball from Honey,
• 49:53
  Speaker 6: who we had mentioned before at the first reunion.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: Show and this is the second one now in like junior,
• 50:10
  Speaker 6: I think, and they had gone back and forth and
• 50:14
  Speaker 6: that was all this stuff. And like in fact, when
• 50:16
  Speaker 6: I got to the building, I ran into somebody who's like,
• 50:20
  Speaker 6: are you interviewing Jack today? And I said yeah, and
• 50:22
  Speaker 6: they said, oh, you better watch out. He has again.
• 50:24
  Speaker 6: They're like, no, oh, yeah it was. He said he's
• 50:27
  Speaker 6: going to kill balls, and I kind of smirked and
• 50:29
  Speaker 6: said like, oh yeah, but see, I think I really
• 50:32
  Speaker 6: think that Jack was working and did I have to
• 50:36
  Speaker 6: explain for people w don't understand. I think there's a
• 50:39
  Speaker 6: weird thing about wrestling. Part of Jack's income over the
• 50:45
  Speaker 6: last decade because he pretty much can't get a job
• 50:48
  Speaker 6: with with the wrestling in this street shrinking, his style
• 50:53
  Speaker 6: going out of vogue and him this Adam pedeling nutty guy,
• 50:58
  Speaker 6: it's hard for him to get work with in wrestling,
• 51:01
  Speaker 6: And part of his income was derived from doing shoot interviews.
• 51:06
  Speaker 6: And he sparked like I said, so Jack knows to
• 51:10
  Speaker 6: do a shoot interview and to have people buy it,
• 51:12
  Speaker 6: and therefore make yourself a commodity that can demand you know,
• 51:16
  Speaker 6: two grand or four grand or whatever you were getting
• 51:18
  Speaker 6: paid for just sitting down and telling stories for three
• 51:21
  Speaker 6: hours on one day. You've got to have stories. So
• 51:25
  Speaker 6: if you do a lot of shooting interviews, you run
• 51:27
  Speaker 6: out stories and people don't want to buy it anymore.
• 51:30
  Speaker 6: And I think that Jack like creating hysteria so that
• 51:36
  Speaker 6: he would be more marketable. That part of that whole
• 51:38
  Speaker 6: Carney thing that that wrestler prisona and I really believe
• 51:46
  Speaker 6: that Jack. I had a conversation with him earlier in
• 51:50
  Speaker 6: that week where it seemed we were We met in
• 51:55
  Speaker 6: person because she was in town in Philly and it
• 52:00
  Speaker 6: was for that we were both had to be somewhere
• 52:02
  Speaker 6: for different reasons, and we ended up being around each
• 52:05
  Speaker 6: other for about two hours and talking for about almost
• 52:08
  Speaker 6: one of them. I would check. I did most of
• 52:11
  Speaker 6: my talking with him, and my impression.
• 52:14
  Speaker 9: Is that he knew that he didn't really have a
• 52:20
  Speaker 9: problem with John Reckner the curson or Ball of Mahoney
• 52:24
  Speaker 9: the character in real life, but he was creating one,
• 52:29
  Speaker 9: and if he pushed hard enough, Balls.
• 52:31
  Speaker 6: Would say something that would lead to there being more
• 52:35
  Speaker 6: kind of hysteria around it. They see how goofy wrestle is.
• 52:40
  Speaker 6: I think that he was creating a situation in that
• 52:46
  Speaker 6: from talents, they would call it working at angle, but
• 52:50
  Speaker 6: in real life, he was kind of creating this storyline
• 52:54
  Speaker 6: in real life. And I don't think Ball of Mahoney
• 52:57
  Speaker 6: knew that he was part of a fake story, you
• 53:02
  Speaker 6: know what I mean? So apparently, and I don't even
• 53:05
  Speaker 6: think that this was true, but I was told, well,
• 53:06
  Speaker 6: you know, Balls is baldmoney is in the building already.
• 53:09
  Speaker 6: I said, oh, okay, if they're really going to be
• 53:11
  Speaker 6: a thing, He's like, oh yeah. Ball showed me he
• 53:12
  Speaker 6: got like a little gut or something in his bag,
• 53:14
  Speaker 6: and I'm like, so I was on edge, you know
• 53:17
  Speaker 6: what I mean? And uh, And then he walked up
• 53:20
  Speaker 6: to him and Balls might have said like two words.
• 53:25
  Speaker 6: I guess like Balls try to talk to him. And
• 53:27
  Speaker 6: this wasn't listen. Other than myself and Kennedy, there was
• 53:32
  Speaker 6: nobody in this room that was a fan or something.
• 53:35
  Speaker 6: You know. It's order. It isn't like Stevie Richards was
• 53:37
  Speaker 6: in the room, John Finnigan. It was a people I
• 53:40
  Speaker 6: was friendly with. Actually, you know John Senningkins there. It
• 53:42
  Speaker 6: was an old referee for ETW and his work a
• 53:45
  Speaker 6: lot of other places. He wasn't trying to fool fans
• 53:50
  Speaker 6: to make money in that way in that room, but
• 53:54
  Speaker 6: he was for real, Like, it's so weird the psychology
• 53:58
  Speaker 6: of the I don't feel like the newer wrestlers that
• 54:03
  Speaker 6: that's the thing. They see it as entertainment. They all
• 54:06
  Speaker 6: grew up on WWE and they want to be good
• 54:10
  Speaker 6: corporate cit and then apply their trade for the most part,
• 54:14
  Speaker 6: or do it for the art, you know what I mean.
• 54:15
  Speaker 6: The journeymen who get a lot about on the internet,
• 54:18
  Speaker 6: they do it kind of for their art and because
• 54:20
  Speaker 6: they love it, and in some cases are because they
• 54:22
  Speaker 6: don't want to grow up, because you get to be
• 54:24
  Speaker 6: as Angel of the baldis for me from later to
• 54:29
  Speaker 6: ACW said to me, it's like it's like you're always
• 54:31
  Speaker 6: in high school and every weekend like a high school party.
• 54:34
  Speaker 6: You know, you never have to leave. I think that
• 54:37
  Speaker 6: all these factors go into this kind of thing, and
• 54:38
  Speaker 6: then after a while you don't know what I want
• 54:40
  Speaker 6: to do. It's not a transferable skill. Pretending artfully to
• 54:44
  Speaker 6: beat somebody up isn't something that you can go across
• 54:47
  Speaker 6: the street and say, hey, I would like to sell
• 54:50
  Speaker 6: cars for you, or I would like to fit in
• 54:52
  Speaker 6: cubicle and do tech support for your tech company. So
• 54:58
  Speaker 6: in this case, Jack created something and I guess ball
• 55:03
  Speaker 6: myself for it, and that's all he needed. And he
• 55:06
  Speaker 6: just walked up to him and punched him in the
• 55:08
  Speaker 6: faith in the Onion Times and to the balls morning credit.
• 55:11
  Speaker 6: You never tried to strike Jack, which is you know,
• 55:15
  Speaker 6: somebody hitch in the face. You know, he just defended
• 55:18
  Speaker 6: himself and covering up and kept trying to talk sense
• 55:22
  Speaker 6: to him, you know what I mean. And I will
• 55:25
  Speaker 6: admit that I'm the person who finally said, you know,
• 55:28
  Speaker 6: this is going all way too long and I ran
• 55:30
  Speaker 6: and got one of the promoters, and I got at
• 55:32
  Speaker 6: the security and Bay ran in and crapping.
• 55:39
  Speaker 7: Well, that is a hell of a story.
• 55:42
  Speaker 5: I could definitely you know, I remember uh seeing something
• 55:45
  Speaker 5: about that a couple of years ago with balls.
• 55:48
  Speaker 7: And and knew Jack had a problem with one another postscripted.
• 55:52
  Speaker 6: By the way, they did do a shoot interview with
• 55:56
  Speaker 6: Rob Seinstein, yes, afterwards, and I've never seen the whole thing,
• 56:01
  Speaker 6: but some what I saw by that point everybody was
• 56:05
  Speaker 6: included in wink wink, I mean Rob did I don't know.
• 56:08
  Speaker 6: I haven't talked to Robin quite a while, but Rob
• 56:10
  Speaker 6: sworting even after it was shot. Oh it was real
• 56:12
  Speaker 6: and we got it off duty, please officer. And I
• 56:15
  Speaker 6: was kind of shocked because either he was trying to
• 56:17
  Speaker 6: quote unquote work as they say in wrestling, which is like, uh,
• 56:22
  Speaker 6: do the whole fa thing, do the live thing, or
• 56:26
  Speaker 6: or he just really believed it was real and he
• 56:28
  Speaker 6: pitched away money on the lindercover cop to do security
• 56:32
  Speaker 6: for that. You know, by that point, I don't think
• 56:36
  Speaker 6: that I think everybody knew what was going on, sort
• 56:38
  Speaker 6: of saying but they made their money.
• 56:41
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and uh, you know that whole thing.
• 56:44
  Speaker 5: You know, this whole story kind of reminds me of
• 56:46
  Speaker 5: you know, some of the obstacles that you'll face were
• 56:48
  Speaker 5: making a movie.
• 56:49
  Speaker 7: But these are some of the obstacles you face, you know,
• 56:51
  Speaker 7: making this documentary.
• 56:53
  Speaker 5: As you thought that some of your your the people
• 56:56
  Speaker 5: you're interviewing, were going yourself, some of your subjects, you know,
• 56:59
  Speaker 5: we're going to assaw you at any time, particularly new
• 57:01
  Speaker 5: Jack yes or.
• 57:03
  Speaker 6: Lie to me. That was another thing. There's a lot
• 57:05
  Speaker 6: of We had so many theoretical flash like I hate
• 57:13
  Speaker 6: to use this word because it's it's used in a
• 57:15
  Speaker 6: dirty way, which kind of stocks but intellectual debates and uh,
• 57:21
  Speaker 6: what would what would you call it? We would watch
• 57:24
  Speaker 6: footage and there'd be three people saying three different things
• 57:27
  Speaker 6: and we would have to talk about like and it's
• 57:29
  Speaker 6: also the other the classling you're dealing with something where
• 57:31
  Speaker 6: people within that industry they interchange truth and the real
• 57:36
  Speaker 6: world with what they call working, which they have their
• 57:40
  Speaker 6: own term for lying, go working. It's okay if you
• 57:43
  Speaker 6: flat out lie to somebody, even like your wife or
• 57:46
  Speaker 6: your best friend. If you're working. Now, if you was lying,
• 57:49
  Speaker 6: that's horrible, you know. But if you work somebody, that's
• 57:51
  Speaker 6: the gay. So we would have these debates where you'd
• 57:53
  Speaker 6: sit at the enity bay. It's almost finally like kind
• 57:56
  Speaker 6: of like shy and look at each other and ask
• 58:00
  Speaker 6: more turn and saying like do we know that so
• 58:03
  Speaker 6: and so thinks there whether he believes this or do
• 58:06
  Speaker 6: we know this to be true? Because now I'm going
• 58:08
  Speaker 6: to go to wrestling guys, So I have to talk
• 58:11
  Speaker 6: about the backstory of these things and like what I've
• 58:13
  Speaker 6: learned through research. So a lot of the game was
• 58:18
  Speaker 6: knowing all the stuff, you know. I did a lot
• 58:21
  Speaker 6: when we when we decided to finally do this and
• 58:24
  Speaker 6: finish it, I spent two months diving back into every
• 58:30
  Speaker 6: piece and notes and then every every like I mentioned
• 58:35
  Speaker 6: the newsletters before, I read every newsletter saying about ECW.
• 58:38
  Speaker 6: At that time, I would call journalists and I have
• 58:42
  Speaker 6: off the record chats about things, and I get to
• 58:46
  Speaker 6: murky too, because the journalists on buddies and they have
• 58:48
  Speaker 6: different masters. They're serving within like any reporter has sources
• 58:53
  Speaker 6: in that industry that they are trying to protect and
• 58:55
  Speaker 6: that might be personal friends, and they all have different
• 58:58
  Speaker 6: perceptions about saying and so it can be a mess untangled.
• 59:05
  Speaker 6: You know, you have to worry about. There are a
• 59:09
  Speaker 6: lot of times when I interviewed somebody and they'd say
• 59:11
  Speaker 6: something and I either my first you know, cynical thought
• 59:15
  Speaker 6: was as well, they're lying to me, Well, this is great,
• 59:17
  Speaker 6: And then you know, I've watched the tape again and
• 59:20
  Speaker 6: I think, you know, I put all the pieces together,
• 59:22
  Speaker 6: and you know, they probably think what they they're saying.
• 59:24
  Speaker 6: It's true that I think of it. It's not I know,
• 59:27
  Speaker 6: it's not that they don't know, you know what I mean. Like,
• 59:29
  Speaker 6: look in the movie Ball in the Honey thought that
• 59:31
  Speaker 6: ECW is being restructured. You know I was. I was
• 59:36
  Speaker 6: barely twenty when I did that interview with him, and
• 59:40
  Speaker 6: I had the legal documentation of the filing of chapter
• 59:44
  Speaker 6: eleven and you can see it in the cell. We're
• 59:47
  Speaker 6: talking about it, and he's like, oh, yeah, chapter eleven restructuring. Yeah,
• 59:51
  Speaker 6: there's a lot that you don't know that I can't say.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show, and.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 6: What are you supposed to say to that guy? Like,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 6: you know, no offense. But I'm pretty you know, even
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 6: being twenty, I was relatively well connected at the time.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 6: Obviously I'm doing this project, you know, so I only
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 6: know what the score was on that. But obviously he
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 6: had headed and filled by you know, not only wanting
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 6: to believe these things, because who wants to lose their
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 6: what they consider their dream job, but he also probably
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 6: had people telling him just hold on, just hold on.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 6: You know, I got that a lot from people, even well,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 6: you know, twelve years after the fact, when interviewing people,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 6: you know, I have a whole role of people saying
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 6: they just wanted to talking not early about wanting to believe,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 6: but talking about their emotions, either if they went to
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 6: the last show and know of nowhere they that they did,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 6: or seven months later when Paul Haym and the owner
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 6: of ECW walked on to WWE's live broadcast they do
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 6: every Monday, which is wrong. You know, that's a big
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 6: topic with people, you know.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know again, you know, for for all
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 5: the listeners out there, you know what John is talking about,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 5: is you know, for all, anyone making a documentary, you know,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 5: he had to worry about, you know, not the obstacles
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 5: of you know, someone's going to insult him, but also
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 5: you know, people would actually lie. And you know, I
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 5: have had other people who've done documentaries about different subjects,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 5: and you know that's some of the things that they
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 5: have to worry about too. Is mainly that in clayborg
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: up John is are people telling the truth? Because this
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: is you know sometimes it's basically like the truth according
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: to them, if you know what I mean, there's an
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 5: old saying and uh, I foregared who said it. But
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 5: you know there's there's there's three versions of the truth.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 5: There's your version, my version, and the truth or what
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 5: really happened. And I mean, you know, and and you
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 5: know you took you know you just said, you know,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 5: you took over what twelve thirteen years to you know,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 5: get all this documentary footage and put it all together
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 5: and actually make it.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 7: I mean, so you you were in this little long
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 7: haul to make this documentary.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, solute. I mean, and I'm always quick to state
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 6: just because I'm like an obsessively factual person and I
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 6: don't like I don't really like the mythologized ain't what
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 6: I do at all, you know what I mean? Because
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 6: I feel that flying and that Tony. And then I
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 6: would think, like, well, if you go with this year,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 6: you've been again trapped in Ohio one day. You know,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 6: we weren't working every day for thirteen years. We were
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 6: working a lot in two thousand, a ton in two
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 6: thousand and one, a little bit in two thousand and two,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 6: and then it'sat on the shelf, and then I think,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 6: oh five, we worked for like half a year on it,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 6: and it sat on the shelf. And like during this period,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 6: there would still a few times where like you know,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 6: somebody would call me and go, here's Paul him in
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 6: the email. Do you want to talk to him blah
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 6: blah blah blah blah, or here do you want to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 6: talk to so and so and this and that, And
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 6: then I think once we made the decision in late
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 6: January early Sebruary twenty twelve, at that point it became
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 6: an everyday, twelve hour days until not just the premiere,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 6: like I'd say, until probably July fly of that year,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 6: every day because the thing that you know, there's still
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 6: man evingn't to worry about like you talking about documentaries
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 6: like another thing. He's dressed about his releases. Well this
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 6: person said the release. Oh this Berkson locked in. I
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 6: had one shot during the Balls. I just see the thing.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 6: People keep coming up. It's so goofy. You see this
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 6: this film was like so super balls Maloney's entry. During
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 6: my initial interview with Ball's Mahoney in Virginia in two
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 6: thousand and one, a gentleman named Rob Van dam well
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 6: that's his rest still name, walked purposely, in fact, walk
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 6: into the shot to say hide the ball and to
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 6: say some stuff to the camera, and then you know,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 6: follow that up by like, if you want to use this,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 6: you made her relief, you need to talk to my agent.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 6: He had no idea. I already spoken in the age
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 6: of the month before to try to get him. There's
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 6: the time he was a hot commodity. I can ended
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 6: up in a w w'slee within you know, by the summertime,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 6: and as his agent wanted like two grand to sit
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 6: down and talk to him, he just thought it to
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 6: shoot impossible for these people to wrap their head around
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 6: the idea that anybody outside of the wrestling world would
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 6: want to to talk to these people, and in the
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 6: wrestling world, you get paid for him because they're shooting interviews.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 6: Like now that's broken down again, but especially at that time,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 6: and it didn't help that I had bitter w reffling
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 6: fan and that was that was another BitFall too. How
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 6: much do I tell these people in pre interview stuff.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 6: Not only would I make the call and we confirm everything,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 6: but I like to talk to my subject because I'm
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 6: I'm kind of a believe that, like I'm in charge
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 6: of the room. Like Kevin would come and he would
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 6: do all the tech and he would film it, and
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 6: then I would allow him the co creative process. You know,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 6: whatever is on my end, he has see that car
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 6: or whatever is on his, and I have something, and
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 6: it's so during the interview, I would I would he
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 6: would just interrupt here and there if you thought I
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 6: missed something, or if I would turn in and city
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 6: you have anything. At this point I think he may
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 6: or may not, as but in the room, before you
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 6: even turn the cameras on, the people are picking your
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 6: brain and trying to see what your quote unquote angle is.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 6: Could they come from a world where everybody has an
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 6: angle on screen and off? So then I learned very
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 6: quickly to minimize the fact that I was a fan,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 6: because they view fans as the lowest common denominator, you
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 6: know what I mean, kind of the way people argue
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 6: that WWE promotes their fans, They're thinking of the dumbest,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 6: yokl who doesn't understand anything and needs complete expository dialogue
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 6: and very simplistic angles with no kind of like real
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 6: shades of gray. That's kind of how I felt. A
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 6: lot of wrestlers viewed fans, and it was my job
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 6: to control my perception. I felt to get interviews and
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 6: to continue dialogues and get people if under releases. And
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 6: I'm not saying why to people, but I just mean
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 6: by the time we came back to when I was
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 6: a lot older and I knew how to prevent myself there,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 6: it is. I'm I think I did an okid job
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 6: when I was like eighteen, nineteen, twenty twenty one years old,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 6: but I would get very nervous, and I didn't know
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 6: we'd know how to answer a lot of questions about it,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 6: you know. And by that time I knew that we
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 6: didn't come back to it because I was a wrestling
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 6: there and that I always thought that's something that I think.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 6: There was a big person in my interviews too, was like,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 6: without asking me, they I was being presented on radio
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 6: interviews and podcasts as like a super fan, and they
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 6: fought that help because in their mind it was awesome
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 6: that a fan was doing this and this was some
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 6: kind of love letter to you, and that's not what
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 6: it was at all. My job as a filmmaker was
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 6: to document the truth, which was hard to get at.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 6: Some people would say, well, what is this and it's
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 6: just like an attack piece, or is it like they
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 6: basically want to know the paradigms they kind of set up,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 6: you know, was it's either a something that's relatively promotional
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 6: where they can why where they can just you know,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 6: make up their own reality, or be I must be
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 6: trying to get it all all things negative and bury
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 6: them because they're martyr. That was part of the cw
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 6: fanship was that you were you were part of a revolution,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 6: you were part of something very like guttural and duy,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 6: and you were a family, and anybody against you there
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 6: was a martyrdom about them, and there was you know,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 6: it was the term revolution and what it really means,
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 6: you know what I mean, it's people kind of getting
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 6: together almost like a what do they call that, a
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 6: flashbob of sorts and doing something about a regime. It's
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 6: usually political and involved countries and wars, and it's it's
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 6: about a regime that you think is wrong, you know
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 6: what I mean. There's all these ideological things they're attached
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 6: to it. But basically that's what I had to penetrate,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 6: you know what I mean. So it's like, at least
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 6: the regular documentary, if I was documenting I don't know,
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 6: an interesting guy who I don't know, like made billions
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 6: off of popsical sticks and then disappeared, and I had
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 6: the one interview with him at least, like what, I'm
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 6: interviewing his family and everybody else, and then I finally
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 6: do an interview with him. But they're not gonna I
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 6: don't think they're necessarily going to go into it thinking
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 6: that I am a bad guy, you know what I mean,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 6: or thinking that they need to feel me out, you
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 6: know what I mean. And everybody either like was questionable
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 6: about or didn't want to do it at first, and
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 6: all these things, and like the funny thing was a
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 6: lot of these people would be interviewed by me, and
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 6: I don't know. I think it's almost egocritical to say
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 6: that they respected me. I think that they did, probably,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 6: but it's not like somebody said I really respect you.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 6: And even if they did, I'd be like, well, you're
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 6: a wrestler. So I don't know if that's true, because
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 6: you'll just say things. Maybe you want me editing you favorably.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 6: Could you just thought of something you said in like
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 6: the fortieth minute that would you probably shouldn't have said,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 6: but I do. But the one thing that came out
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 6: of it was a lot, a lot of referrals, a
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 6: lot of are you know, jumping through to get everybody
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 6: had with one person liking up after the interview and
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 6: thing that we were fair and that we were thorough
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 6: and that we were that we presented ourselves well, and
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 6: one the project to faicied in therefore calling other people
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 6: and saying hey, in bouncing for us essentially say hey,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 6: these guys are doing this documentary. And I think we
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 6: were also very lucky because when we started we were
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 6: just young enough and dumb enough to be likable and
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 6: not and at the same time professional professional enough to
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 6: get in the room with these people. Yeah, which is
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 6: was like perfect, we lucked out because if they thought
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 6: we were just super fancy'd had nothing to do with that.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 6: But if they thought we were like real journal it's well,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 6: the first thing you saw, especially when we started, the
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 6: first thing you thought was, oh, well this is going
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 6: to be is is this real or fake? And just
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 6: an attack piece about how disgusting it is?
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 5: You know, yeah, and you know, I know exactly what
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 5: you're said saying and you know that that It's also
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 5: something you know that's important, is you know how you
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 5: matured as a filmmaker and how you choose an interviewer
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 5: when you were going from you know, obviously when you're
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 5: interviewing them when you were twenty to a few years later,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 5: but you know, you know a lot of what you
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 5: were saying there is is so important because when another
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: you know, some are trying to make a documentary, they
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 5: always wonder how likely is it I'll be able to
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 5: get to these people because eventually you know you're going
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 5: to have to, you know, talk to me if you
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 5: want to do a documentary on the Beach Boys. For instances,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 5: point you're gonna have to sit down with them and
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 5: talk about them. Otherwise it's just sort of this piece
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 5: that sort of is about them, now, you know what
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 5: I mean, not with them, but about them.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 6: Wait, I don't know. And then do they want they
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 6: want a piece in the action financially, do they want
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 6: creative control? There's all these things. Yeah, I mean we
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 6: talked about that even after after Barbara City is like, oh, well,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 6: what's the next project, and when we took a little
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 6: time to decomprass and run the business aspect of it,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 6: and then you come up with ideas and then you'd
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 6: ride away. I always think in terms of like logistic
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 6: good and the filmmaker, because they're not another big thing licensing,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 6: not just taking people the film releases, but licensing. So
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 6: somebody would say something and idea. Kevin in the studio
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 6: kicking around ideas, and I don't know, maybe he'd say
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 6: something or trying to think maybe he never said this,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 6: but I'm making this up. He'd say a comic book
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 6: writer that was really hot a decade to Bill Bendix.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 6: I forget, I forget who come in, but I'm just
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 6: gonna use him. So right away, Well, if you're going
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 6: to a documentary about Bendis and you know under the
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 6: premise like, well he changed the way comic books are rid. Okay, well,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 6: first you have to prove that that's true or not.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 6: That's not really my genre. It's just kind of something
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 6: that properly was. You know, I had friends that would
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 6: tell me about him. Well right away, it's like, okay,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 6: well where did he raised? Where did he grow to be? Well,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 6: he writes like half of Marble's market books. Okay, Well,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 6: now that's the problem because you can't do a good
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 6: Vendus documentary unless you get Marble on board, because you're
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 6: going to need to show the stuff she's true or
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 6: that he wrote, right, and that's in that's a Marble thing. Well,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 6: who owns Marble? Oh? Disney? Okay, no, how you're dealing
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 6: with Usney? How do you do with Dudney? Like those
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 6: are the kind of things you'd have to talk about
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 6: and think about it legit to oh, well, where did
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 6: he live? Okay? Well, who are the main players you'd
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 6: also want to interview? Well, you do two months of
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 6: research and you come back and you go, like it
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 6: defend people, where do they live? California, Florida? Arizona. Well, okay,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 6: now your cough fits went up obscenely because you've got
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 6: to get them to say yeah. And you have to
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 6: have a few days in all these things. You need
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 6: to dominate the ball. That was a big thing, a
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 6: huge thing for us very early on with getting Todd Gordon.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 6: I remember I would buck him on the phone all
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 6: the time. And when I lived in Billy, I would
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 6: at the University of the Arts with Camp and his
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 6: stewelry shop was maybe a mile away, and I would
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 6: walk there like once a week and bug him. It's
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 6: like this nineteen year old kid, and he'd say, well,
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 6: who do you have? And I remember saying him like
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 6: the three interviews we had at the time, like my
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 6: Mark he died with, Like John Bailey, the straw hat
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 6: guy who, for those of you who don't know, was
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 6: a guy who sat in the front row of every
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 6: CW Arena show from the beginning and he was just
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 6: part of He was emblematic of the fans, you know,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 6: and he's hitting with John. He seemed like a really
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 6: nice kid and I respect that, Like you just don't
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 6: want to give up, but you know, my time is
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 6: really precious and I've only ever done one other interview
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 6: since I left UCW and Todd, by the way, in case,
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 6: I buried the lead on this as a sounder and
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 6: the original owner of u c W. And he basically
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 6: said to me, like, I don't listed I have time
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 6: to do a doctor an interview where the only other
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 6: guy participating is like the straw hat guys. And I,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 6: thankfully I said okay. And I didn't know what to
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 6: day to that, and I called him back and I
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 6: pledged to him. I teeted with the rather and I said, Todd,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 6: you know, I get where you're coming from. I totally
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 6: do You're that working though when other people ask who
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 6: do you have, I'm gonna say Todd Gordon and then
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 6: we go from there, like just give me a chance.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 6: And we didn't have all of our stuff together necessarily,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 6: like it was just so wide at that time, so
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 6: my questions for like five pages instead of like a
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 6: one sheet. And he sat through two and a half
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 6: hours of a you know, doing the stupid interview, and
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 6: he made calls for her to his credit. Yeah, that's
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 6: the kind of stuff though, that's the stuff you work with,
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 6: that getting these people Domino's falling, dealing with Disney, you know,
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 6: and for us, a lot of it. Would you know,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 6: did Paul talk to you? Did Paul Hayman talk to you? Well? No,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 6: well I don't know if I talked with Paul. And
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 6: a lot of these people came back and apologized for
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 6: me once we get it and said, I'm sorry. You know,
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 6: I was worried about, you know, my where I was
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 6: going to go after he should w you and you know,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 6: I didn't want to offend Paul and this and that
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 6: in case, you know jobs, because he was tied in
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 6: with w w B, which is the biggest, you know,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 6: pro wrestling company in the world, kind of monolithic now
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 6: and and some of them even ended up doing interviews
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 6: with us after the facts.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 7: Have you ever seen Escape Room Tomorrow Land?
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 6: I never finished it. Yeah, that's the gorilla, the one,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 6: you know, very stylistic gorilla filmmaking in Disneyland, yes, or
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 6: Disney Is was it Didney Right or Disney World. It
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 6: was one of them. Yeah. They went in and they Yeah,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 6: that's fascinating, that whole story.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 5: I I actually saw that one day on a whim
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 5: and I was just blown away by for a couple
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 5: of reasons. First off, I got it. You know, it
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 5: was kind of David lynchon I what that was going
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 5: for the other part of it was I had to
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 5: look up to see what did Disney think of this? Uh,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 5: And there's a fascinating story behind it. But I you know,
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 5: I will link to that in the show notes though everybody.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 5: But there's just a lot of moving parts and Disney
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 5: did find out about it. And but you know, I
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 5: don't want to take I don't want to take away
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 5: from your story.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 6: John, Well, it's quite nice of you.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 5: I don't want to start talking about, you know, escape
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 5: from Tomorrow. But you know one thing I wanted to
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 5: ask you about. You know, you ran a successful Kickstarter
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 5: for this, but say so, you know what, what sort
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 5: of tips could you sort of give that you that
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 5: you could give to any people out there? But who
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 5: were I think I'm making a documentary and putting it
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 5: up for crowdfunding.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 6: I have a big caveat to this. I might have more,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 6: but off the top of my head, my biggest one
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 6: is I ran the campaign from mid August bill mid
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 6: September of twenty twelve. So basically we're coming up on
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 6: the anniversary three year anniversary of running that Cantaign. I
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 6: don't know what perception or as bad if you don't
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 6: want to call it if kicked out, isn't that. I
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 6: know there was a lot of pushback from some people,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 6: the idea that you're giving away free money to people,
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 6: and I know that some people won't kick start BA
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 6: basically burned people. The one that the one that I
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 6: saw that always picks with me. And this was thankfully
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 6: well after we had made the film or a year after.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 6: There was a guy who like, yes, he was writing
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 6: like trade paperback novels. I think that was it anyway,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 6: if something printed and he collected all the money he
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 6: actually made them, but he was doing everything by himself.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 6: And it's a bit of a temperamental art arty type.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 6: And this is the problem is like you're dealing both
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 6: the beauty and the horror of it is you're dealing
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 6: with artists most of the time. Now, some of this
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 6: stuff is just pure commercialism. Sure I'm on a low level,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 6: but like I mean, deal or not, I'm not a guy.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 6: I know that this is another kind of like intellectual. Uh,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 6: this is another dirty word artist. I never wanted to
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 6: be an artist when I was younger, I wanted to
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 6: be in the entertainment business. You know. That's how I
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 6: looked at it. And what's funny is most people, when
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 6: the teenagers, they want to be arty and then they
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 6: kind of quote unquote set out and they just want
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 6: to be They understand how business works, and they're willing
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 6: to make concessions to be in the industry of their choice,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 6: and they know the reality of the ta And it
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 6: happened in the opposite way for me because I wanted
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 6: to be an entertainer. It was funny, Like you know,
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 6: I would joke with cav when we got older, like
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 6: I was more vocal about it, but he went along
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 6: with it, and I think he I think he admitted
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 6: to me at one point he didn't feel this way too.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 6: When we were like you know, sixteenth through like twenty four,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 6: we wanted to be not literally rock starars like musicians.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 6: We wanted to be rock stars who make films. We
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 6: wanted to be media presences, you know what I mean.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 6: That was part of it. And we didn't want to
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 6: just make crap, sure, but we wanted to be personalities
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 6: first and foremost, I think, and what changed in both
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 6: of us, especially me, more me than him, was that
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 6: I really became more of an artist, and I think
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 6: people are embarrassed to say things like that because they
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 6: think it sounds pretentious. There's this whole clichet around it,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 6: and a lot of times I think people are afraid
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 6: of it because when you call yourself that, I think
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 6: they think it then first like that you're successful, that
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 6: your art is valid, and that your art is.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 6: Something really deep, you know, it's really it's something that
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 6: a normal person might not understand and everything, and that's
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 6: just not true. That's not fair. You don't have to
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 6: have commer commercial successes to be artsy or think like
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 6: an artists, so to speak. And that's something I slowly
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 6: came to gripture. That's just kind of how I am.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 6: You know, they tend to be. I'm not a money person.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 6: Cheeter g given me as nobody shoots yourself in a
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 6: foot or drops things on principle more than getting Yarne
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 6: and I and we have real far less money to
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 6: show for it. And in some cases it was when
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 6: it came down to it, it was about like I
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 6: don't want to do something and look back in five
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 6: years and be like, well, I did that for money,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 6: you know, because that's what is that. That's a prostitute,
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 6: you know what I mean, there's one thing like that.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 6: I like. Look, we all have to work day jobs
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 6: a lot of time, most of us do. That's when
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 6: I have to be a prostitute. You know. I don't
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 6: want to do it with something that I feel passionate about.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 6: So yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. Oh you get off on
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 6: the old thing. So my point is that artists, and
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 6: thank you for shitting through this pala, I really do
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 6: enjoy doing these things and talking to people, you know
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 6: what I mean, Like, I hope I don't come up
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 6: with somebody who's in love with their own voice, because
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 6: I just I love the back and forth and the
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 6: sharing and all this stuff. We'll talking about these experiences,
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 6: yeah you had as a kickstarter, You're dealing with temperamental
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 6: artists a lot of time, and that can be troubling.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 6: And the biggest I all just think of the guy
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 6: you're collecting all this money, you're doing everything by himself,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 6: and he got sick of and neither experiences too. Look,
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 6: whenever you deal I think that the final tality for
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 6: us was like four hundred and forty some people gave
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 6: us money. Maybe it was four hundred and eighty one.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 6: There were just below five hundred. There's five hundred separate
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 6: entities giving me money. You know, I should, as I'm
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 6: a person to person and they believe it even enough
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 6: that they gave you money or at least your product
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 6: is interesting to them. But the percentage of them are
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 6: just going to be crazy people like and I don't
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 6: literally mean crazy people like you know, they would be
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 6: in a mental institution. I mean that they don't. They're
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 6: just not because that have a lot of social graces
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 6: and they're dealing with you through a computer anyway, you know,
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 6: so they can say whatever. So I guess this guy
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 6: was I've dealt with it too, But I guess since
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 6: I could not deal with people going where is this?
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 6: I paid for this, I'm going to sue you or
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 6: some such nonsense, you know, and some people will probably,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 6: you know, I think the pressure probably got to the
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 6: guy just I'm sure some people were just like, hey, man,
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 6: gave you money six months ago, where's the books? You know?
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 6: And so he puts up a video on Kickstarter of
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 6: himself yelling basically the people who paid for this, and
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 6: and then she was a video of him burning the
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 6: first uh like three hundred or something crazy. He threw
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 6: them all the five he threw the first run of
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 6: it in a fire pit and started burning them and
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 6: then threatened like a hostage situation, threatened to keep burning,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 6: gressed if he got any other messages and said you'll
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 6: get them when you get them, basically and stuff like that.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 6: Gave like you know, artists on there, like bad Brass.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 6: I don't know that the Golden US it's kind of
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 6: been killed. I know that in wrestling. I remember I
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 6: remember being interviewed actually by Mike Jonathan back and As
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 6: at a show about thirty and a half months before
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 6: the premiere, and he thought we were talking about Kickstarter
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 6: on there. I think the video is still on YouTube.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 6: I'm much fatter, I won't watch it anymore. But he, uh,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 6: he acting about kicks there, and I said, I worried
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 6: that that people were going to kill the Golden Goose.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 6: And the question was specific to wrestling documentaries because there
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 6: was a whole rational then at the time, and I
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 6: worded about it too. Even people would come up to
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 6: me and asking for advice and they tell me their
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 6: idea and I'm just thinking, like, you know, I don't
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 6: know that I'm necessarily even a filmmaker to this day,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 6: you know, in a true sense, but I have some
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 6: no how, and certainly Kevin Kridan does too. And we
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 6: accomplished a bowl and we had something behind it that
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 6: was more than Ain't this cool? And I was talking
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 6: to people who seem like really nice kids who I
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 6: could just tell. I'm like, this is going to be
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 6: a disaster and this is going to hurt anything going
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 6: forward for wrestling documentaries. And I don't know that that
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 6: completely bored out, but I do think that the fag
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 6: kind of died down somewhat. I think the biggest thing
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 6: is to personalize it, to get people that you're not
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 6: selling your film necessarily or whatever your artistic endeavor is,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 6: You're selling that in tandem with yourself and hopefully you
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 6: find something like I was smart enough to know that
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 6: I had to appeal to the wrestling Internet, wrestling and
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 6: news letter reading population is the only way that I
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 6: was going to get enough money to properly fund this.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 6: You know, all the licensing out and all the other
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 6: costs budgeting is really important, you know, Oh, I'm jumping
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 6: around it. Basically, when you get these interviews, you have
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 6: to talk about your real story and why you care
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 6: about this thing and why it's relevant, and you have
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 6: to convince people. And another thing is that this is
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 6: what we realized you're doing. This is we should have
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 6: been pitching a pre order systems. There's this idea that
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 6: you're getting free money to do something. Actually, we screwed
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 6: up our budget because the person who did our budget,
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 6: who you know, even myself work out and then I
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 6: don't want to even say the persons thing because we
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 6: have no relation to them anymore, but he was another
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 6: person who was helping to produce this. I mean, it's
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 6: kind of a deal with the devil thing after a while.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 6: And I knew that deep down, but I didn't want
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 6: to fully deal with it, you know, because I needed
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 6: this to get done. I didn't want to die knowing
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 6: like every few years people would say, hey, man, whatever
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 6: happened in a darkningership? Yeah, I never did it, you know,
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 6: I never completed it. I couldn't. I couldn't bear it.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 6: So I had the opportunity I had to be talking
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 6: like the ones I did. Once you go down that road.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 6: You know, you're you're either all in and you're not.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 6: And unfortunately we didn't have a proper budget because not
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 6: only the pre order system, Like it's basically like, hey,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 6: you give me margin to complete the film and you'll
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 6: get the film. But it's also you got to give
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 6: so many gifts that, like I think honestly, we probably
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 6: spent like a third of the budget on I mean
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 6: that's not a completely fastial figure, but two percenters of
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 6: the budget went all the gifts we had to give
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 6: people because first of all, even the film, even if
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 6: you pledged just to get the film, I had to
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 6: print the film myself. When you're like, I had to
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 6: send it to disc makers and get it professionally done.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 6: There's a coup, there's cover art. I had to pay
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 6: for that, you know, mass production, nailing it out myself,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 6: you know. So then you gotta deal with a Champs
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 6: dot com or or the post office every day posters
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 6: posters costs money. One of the things that made this
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 6: possible is funny. I you know, I haven't spoken publicly
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 6: about this because I just haven't done this. The Gentleman
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 6: who costs Rick Flair's podcast, Conrad Thompson. He's really the
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 6: person who made this possible at the end of the day,
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 6: because I was we were down. We had used up
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 6: twenty of our like thirty days on Kitchstarter and we
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 6: still had it. We're gonna come down to the wires.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 6: You did the map on it. It was like, if
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 6: we incrementally averaged this much every day, which we have been,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 6: we may or may not have this at the eleventh hour.
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 6: And gentlemen named Hirad Thompson saw it on I believe
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 6: Dave Meltzer's website, who is the author and editor of
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 6: Wrestling Observer newsletter in website, and he gave us fucking
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 6: four grand. Thanks. You just go get amount of money.
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 6: But here's the thing, because that at that level, I
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 6: then had to go get a wrestler and fly to
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 6: him and give him a private screening the week before
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 6: and that's awfly, you know.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 7: What forget.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 6: For some reason, he really wanted to Chaine Douglas. Oh cool,
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 6: who's Troy Martin And it was really idiocraty is really neat.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 6: We flew down there. Yeah, Kyrad had a beautiful home
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 6: and uh oh real quick to wrap that up, one
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 6: Conrad did this it became obvious to everybody they're gonna
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 6: make it. And that's the funny thing. People you realized
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 6: in hindsight, people weren't giving any money, not because they
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 6: didn't care about the film, but because they weren't. They
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 6: were a lot of people still to this day, think
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 6: that you don't hate money and then you never get
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 6: it that which isn't true. I never and I also
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 6: never had any other miss filmers that I handle your money.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 6: And I don't know if it's exactly the same, but
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 6: at that time, Amazon Payments, which was a subsidiary of
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 6: Amazon dot Com, they did all the financial work for
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 6: Kickstarter and they take that's the other thing. They take
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 6: a percentage. Kickstarter takes a percentage. Amazon takes a percentage,
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 6: so off the top ten percent roughly when you get
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 6: you don't get the money until you don't see any
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 6: money in your bank account until like three weeks after
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 6: this in cloded iff and successful. But because it was
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 6: successful because Conrad did that, rather it exploded and we
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 6: actually got more money than we had asked for, and
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 6: thank god we did, because every penny got spent. Man
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 6: because nobody did a budget on what it would call
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 6: what it would cost to get Chane Douglas on board
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 6: for that.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 6: We were friendly with him, but he wasn't going to
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 6: take a weekend away from his family his boys, Uh,
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 6: to go to this place without you know, being flown there,
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 6: being you know, being put up at least in a hotel,
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 6: you know. And then we had to fly there because
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 6: I had to be there too, you know. And it
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 6: was a great experience, you know. Shane actually spent the
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 6: entire afternoon answering every question in Kyra and ky Land
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 6: Combat and his family have probably the greatest shoot interview
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 6: ever in that you're it's an interactive shooting interview with
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 6: a real human being, who's not who's not being filmed
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 6: and therefore not playing up things and uh. And then
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 6: we all watched the movie together, with Shane and myself
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 6: commenting to Conrad almost like a live directors before the
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 6: film even used to people. So this is really great experience,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 6: but it was a closely experienced. Had to rent the Urbina,
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 6: which is a story with him itself at aena. We
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 6: weren't going to get that arena until two a month
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 6: and a half before the premiere. It was announced the
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 6: day we signed the deal. We did not think we
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 6: were getting that build up for the longest time, and
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 6: we were worried about where until there was going to
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 6: be a career.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 7: Actually, well, so wearing Philly is going to be a career.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 6: No a premiere premiere where we were going to debut
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 6: our fellow.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 10: You know, so, I guess, be yourself, show your passion,
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 10: answer every question, have an answer for everything. Hopefully you
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 10: pick a topic that has a sand.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 6: Base where there is media to promote to those people.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 6: Because imagine if I picked and if I did the
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 6: back documentary had for on Checkers, which sounds silly, but
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 6: I've seen some documentary honestly where I didn't know anything
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 6: about the subject. But I took a chance and I said,
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 6: this is amazing and it doesn't matter if you're a
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 6: fan of this or that. And that's kind of a
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 6: pitch for my own film, Blah Blare City. I mean,
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 6: it's not really about wrestling, it's about culture. It's about
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 6: the culture. It's a journey of.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 11: People, and in this case, they don't at the end
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 11: of it. You know, Rocky doesn't win, you know, they
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 11: don't win, that's the crazy thing about it, and like
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 11: where are they now and how has this defected their lives?
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 6: So yeah, I would show all the things I just said,
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 6: plus budget correctly and realize that you were going to
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 6: have to pay, Realize ten percent is coming off the
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 6: top right away, and realize that you're gonna have to
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 6: pay for all these benefits that you're giving the people
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 6: so that they will give you money. That's the crazy thing.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 6: You're everything somebody pledges, you're close to your goal and
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 6: yet sort of further away if you don't budget properly
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 6: because they pledge. And I've never done the math on
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 6: it because I'm afraid to and out it's over and
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 6: I don't have to. But there are certain pledges where
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 6: I'm sure at the end of the day it was
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 6: kind of like, well, we're giving all that money back
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 6: and I don't actually even remember how much it costs
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 6: to fly down to see Conrad and to bring Shane
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 6: and all that stuff. We probably gave so much money
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 6: back to Conrad at the end of the day. You
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 6: know they need.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I mean one of the things I've
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 5: I've you know, learned about in crowdfunding campaigns from doing
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 5: them too.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 7: Is the perks is you know, the perks can get you.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 5: And we've had you know, other filmmakers on here like
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 5: Don Fields who spoke a lot about that, and crawdfunding
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 5: gurus like Eli Rigolotto who would always talk about that too.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 5: So I mean that that's good, you know now, John,
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 5: because if you do another one at some point, you know,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 5: you have that knowledge to build that into the price
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 5: points so you can break.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 7: The breakdown list.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 5: So you know, if it's one hundred dot perk, okay,
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 5: well we're getting sixty dollars back that sixty percent of
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 5: the perk, and forty dollars goes to the entire cost
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 5: of making it, and you know stuff like you know,
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 5: and I think that is invaluable because I mean, everyone
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 5: makes mistakes with their first crowd funding campaign.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 7: You know, I certainly did, and I know all people
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 7: have as well.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 5: But you know, and that that is an amazing perk,
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 5: by the ways, having somebody actually fly down to watch
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 5: the documentary, because that's suddenly you know, if I had
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 5: the extra money, that would that would be a perk
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 5: that I would have looked at as well, because that
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 5: sounds the absolutely phenomenal, especially being able to get the wrestler.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 5: I don't know if I would have picturing Douglas, though
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 5: I may have actually picked, for the hell of it
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 5: the Blue MIENI uh, because I think.
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 6: You'd be a violence pushing at because it would have
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 6: been so much easier, and he was the personal friend
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 6: of mine. I pushed me because well, at the lumping,
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 6: I was scared to death of like what if they picked, like,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 6: you know, then I have to fly mucheck down there,
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 6: and like maybe I'm the zero hotel room with him
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 6: because of the cause I don't know, you know, and
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 6: I will, and I like Jerom Young, but I also
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 6: who knows what's going to happen, you know what I mean.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 6: It's kind of like having that crazy friend you take
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 6: to a bar in your early to mid twenties and
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 6: he's like, oh, Jimmy is Jimmy the great guy. It's
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 6: a little like he played it fast and loose sometimes little,
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 6: and you know, every third time Jimmy's starting a fight,
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 6: he walks up a few weeks and you're like, hey man,
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 6: that group of guys giving me thirty look, I'm gonna
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 6: jump one of them. You got my back. You know,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 6: I have been in that situation with people and then like,
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 6: oh my god, Jimmy has become a liability, Like I
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 6: don't think we could call with Jimmy anymore. That's what
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 6: I was afraid of with with doing this, so I would.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 6: I had a core conversation where I was like, Conrad,
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 6: don't you like the blue meaning? Isn't the blue meaning
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 6: the cool? How about Jerry Lynn, you know who's really
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 6: cool and loved cats, kebe Richards loved cats. That's all
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 6: hang out? Uh, he picked Shane and Miller. It worked
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 6: out great. I had a great time and I am
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 6: forever thankful to Conrad, who is a really fun cool guy.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 7: You know, it would be funny if he had picked
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 7: someone like the Sandman.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 6: That would have been trouble. Yes, that would have been.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 5: I've actually been around the same one before in like
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 5: non wrestling, uh you know, non wrestling Vine, and he
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 5: is the guy.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 7: Who was exactly the same.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 5: Sorry, so it smokes like a chimney is you know that?
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 5: This was like two thousand and four I met him again.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 5: But actually I heard recently that he's completely clean and sober.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 6: Now that's really good because I know he a few
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 6: years ago, I had some trouble and lost a lot
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 6: of very long time friends who ended up kind of
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 6: cutting him off. I mean, this is what I was told.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 6: It heresay, but I have it from very good sources.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 6: Certain people that are identifiable to him don't talk to
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 6: him anymore, or they didn't for her quite a period
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 6: of time. So that's the first time hearing that. I think,
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 6: that's really great. I didn't have the greatest experience with
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 6: him in two thousand and one, but I will say,
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 6: by the end of the whole thing, you know, I've
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 6: heard all the horrible things about him. I can didn't
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 6: be a really trashy guy and say a lot of
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 6: horrible things. But having said that, my lasting memory of him,
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 6: well he died tomorrow. The story that I would tell
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 6: is I was at you know, filming at one of
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 6: the Extreme Reunion Extreme Rising shows, and I went out
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 6: back coincidentally enough to smoke. Because I have a horrible
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 6: nicotine habit quit or don't start. If you're listen, it's
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 6: been very hard to you know, going off and on
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 6: at that. So I went out to the car to
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 6: get away from the craziness of these shows and smoke,
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 6: and there was this.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 11: Old guy playing like softball or like a whistle ball
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 11: with kids and in the.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 6: Part in the adjacent parking lot, and I thought, well,
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 6: that's weird because we're kind of in an industrial area.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 6: But it's kind of charming to me. And he just
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 6: seems he was kind of like, hey, you go here
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 6: and you do this. And he's like, oh, don't worry
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 6: about it, buddy, you get the next one. And I'm
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 6: listening to the voice and I start hearing at pat Tyler,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 6: go back, let it, let him back again, that voice,
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 6: and I really that old man is that's hacked Jim
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 6: fulling kids, And I just found it such a great juxtaposition.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 6: And I also found it charming in the sense that,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 6: like the real human being. The one thing that I'd
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 6: never heard anyone say is that he wasn't good with
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 6: his kids, and I and I saw it there. You know,
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 6: he came in I think he I think he did
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 6: it for free that show. I think he did it
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 6: as a favor to one of his old EHW friends
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 6: or Shane or something. And he brought his kids and
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 6: they played well. He did his one running everybody popped.
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 6: He drinks his beer. You know, Metallica plays and that
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 6: was his night and he did it to steel friends
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 6: and hang out and really you just we you know,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 6: we just spend time with the kids. And he introduced
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 6: his kids to his crazy old family from the nineties. Yeah,
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 6: so that's something that you know, I can say about him. Yeah,
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 6: that is a positive.
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 7: Well, you know, I have a funny story for you too.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 5: He when I used to work at what was called
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 5: ev Games, which was I know, which was what was
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 5: GameStop before a GameStop became game stop and eby Games.
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 5: We so, you know, and I was up in Broomall, Broomall, Pennsylvania,
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 5: and we're in this you know, and it's kind of
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 5: like an upscale shopping sent We were in well one
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 5: day in two thousand and one.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 7: Incomes the Sandman and he's got his kid with him.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 5: It was Tyler, and he's talking about buying a PlayStation
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 5: or a PlayStation two at that point. And my manager
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 5: had no clue who this guy was. And I'm like,
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 5: oh my god, it's a six I was like, what,
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 5: maybe it's two thousand and one. So I'm thinking I'm
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 5: like sixteen seventeen, and I'm like, oh my god, it's
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 5: the Sandman and I'm trying to you know, and he's.
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 7: Like, Yo, what's up, buddy?
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 6: Yo?
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 7: You got that BS two? Oh God, I hear's my voice?
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 6: Yeah exactly exactly.
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 5: And he and you know, I was like, oh yeah, sure, buddying, so,
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 5: you know, and he ends up leaving. I was like,
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 5: oh my god, the save I just came in here
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 5: and we was soil on a PS two and my
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 5: manager's like, who.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 7: Was that guy?
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 5: So I ended up bringing in some VHS tapes of
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 5: ec W. I showed him and he was laughing his
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 5: ass off at who he was, and he wanted to
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 5: bring him into the store to have a wrestling match
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 5: for our assistant manager, who was this obese guy who
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 5: was just the biggest curmudgeon.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 7: He had these like he had a completely bald head.
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 5: He had like these like bulbous moles. He looked at
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 5: the cartoon car. He looked at a real life Homer Simpson,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 5: if you can imagine that. Okay, So he said to him, Hey,
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna we'll bring this Salman in and you guys
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 5: have a wrestling match here in the store, and he
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 5: wouldn't like, he wouldn't tell me it was a joke.
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 5: He was trying to get him to leave. It was
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 5: real And I just remember finding the assistant manager flipped
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 5: that and was like, no, I'm not going to wrestle
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 5: the Sandman in the middle of the store, and it
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 5: was like it just kind of hit me, like that
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 5: was one of the things I'd never thought I would
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 5: hear in my life was somebody refusing to wrestle the
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 5: Famine in the middle of a retail store, which is
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 5: one of the funny members They have a sad Man.
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 6: And real quick because we'd buried ability again for the
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 6: people who are who are faint and have stuck with us,
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 6: there's the Sandman, the w restlan character. Real name Jim Fullington,
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 6: also goes by Hack. He his friend. He was a
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 6: wrestler carefully nineties who carried around a kendo stick, which
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 6: it was popular at the time. Because Michael Fay got
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 6: in trouble in uh Singapore. There was this kid, he
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 6: was this teenager who I yeah he did, but they
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 6: ended up guilty at a trial. Those cars oh okay,
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 6: right right right, and his punishment was they would whack
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 6: him ten times with a quote unquote Singapore cane. So
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 6: the Samemans make, which was originally that he was a surfer,
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 6: very miscaped in it. He maintained beating the Sandman. But
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 6: he was a guy who would come out in like
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 6: the zoobap pants and then later genes when that's that
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 6: when somebody told him that bad was over, and he
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 6: would come out with that and a T shirt, drinking
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 6: a beer, smoking a cigarette and hitting people with this cane.
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 6: This does not necessarily sound like the rest thing you
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 6: may have grown up with, or even the rest when
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 6: you seet today. It really worked in that environment. He
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 6: became a cold hero, a big thing with ECW, which
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 6: you could never do today. With the original music, they
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 6: didn't use generic music. They used hits that were identified
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 6: that you then identified with that person. And then you
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 6: would hear on a radio and they would be rock
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 6: and metal, and they'd be hip hop and rap. In
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 6: the time when that was just now it's that's that's music.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 6: Now hip hop is just it's a part of music.
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 6: It is the dominant form of music, and rocks share
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 6: in music flips day after day. But at that time
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 6: it was like a very forward thinking thing to attach
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 6: hip hop to some of the acts. And Hayman with
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 6: Paul Hayman, the creative guy behind ETW and eventually the Odor.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 6: He gave saman Enter sam Man by Metallica, which is
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 6: a pretty big there's one of their big kid ever.
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 6: And I hear a song kid this day and I
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 6: think of it, and he would come out. Half of
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 6: the fun of him with this five minute entrance where
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 6: he'd the music would build up and he'd come out
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 6: and start coming out in the audience and he would
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 6: drink a beer and then smash it over his head
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 6: and he'd actually cut himself to bleed from the beer
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 6: again from smashing it. And he would go up to
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 6: people and I saw a million videos of this as
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 6: I was going through the collection for the footage that
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 6: we use the VCW. He'd walk up to a kid
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 6: and go are you eighteen? It's kind of like the
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 6: worst version of a bouncer carding somebody.
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 4: Ever.
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 6: He'd walk up and go are you eighteen? And the
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 6: kid would go yeah, and then go cool, and he
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 6: would just dump a beer down the guy's throat from
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 6: like a very high angle and it would get all
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 6: over the kids face and then hey, high five. So
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 6: this interactive experience and that's the Sam that's who were
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 6: the guy who basically leave his gimmick. They game and
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 6: I just talked about.
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 5: My dad actually used to work in Wilmington and it
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 5: was ware up the street from Hacks Bar and Grill,
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 5: and that is you know, I had friends who would
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 5: you know, because eventually wrestling shows started happening there, But
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 5: they said, you know there, you could go in there
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 5: and there would be the same man just live in
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 5: the gimmick drinking stuff like that.
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 6: I mean, you see the rock footage of our interview.
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 6: It took place in there, and he didn't seem to
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 6: understand that playing uh commercial music during our interview over
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 6: the loudspeaker of the bar would hinder the process, considering
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 6: we couldn't license this. Yeah, I'm sorry, continue, but yes
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 6: I know that bar because we went there and he
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 6: wanted to just do it at a random table in
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 6: the bar.
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, when I was at the premiere of
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 5: Barbara City, I had I was laughing when someone actually
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 5: said to you during the Q and A. They said, oh,
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 5: I would just use a w F footage and told
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 5: Vince McMahon to go fuck himself. And I remember your
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 5: reply was, well, maybe you have a very good entertainment
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 5: lawyer who was a very expensive you know who's on
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 5: you know, the family or is on the paper. But
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 5: you know that would be a hell of a lot
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 5: of money to pay to even sit down with them
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 5: to talk about using FOODEO footage.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 6: Oh. I had people steal the moly online when I
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 6: would write them and say, hey, I'm the director, like
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 6: this is a really small thing that I hope, you know,
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 6: to make money just to reinvest in us. I'm not
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 6: trying to get you in trouble reporting in anything, like
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 6: could you just not? And they would be like, oh man,
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 6: I'm just trying to spread it, you know, you know,
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 6: stopping people from doing this is so uneasy, don't you
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 6: or something? And I'm like, what the fuck are people
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 6: who you a? Will you anything to justify what they do?
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 6: But also be that again circling all the way back,
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 6: A big problem that I had was just for you
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 6: wrestling wrestling fans, specifically, all these VW fans that just
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 6: don't get it, Like you said, like I should just
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 6: tell the giant worldwide global corporation. That's stop trigated that
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 6: few I'm using your footage like that. You would have
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 6: never even been into premiere. They would have sent just
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 6: just months before that, you know, I would I would
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 6: still be paying them today if I did that. Oh
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 6: and for to forget about today, it's only been three years.
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 6: I would be paying them well into my eighties. And
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 6: then then I wouldn't have had the money and I'd
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 6: probably end up in jail or something. Yeah, you can't
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 6: do this.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 5: Anyway, Yeah, absolutely, And which is why whenever, whenever he
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 5: said that, you can just tell that he's the right
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 5: experience down this path.
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 7: But but you know, John, I wanted to ask you,
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 7: you know, Sue, you know I've been talking to you.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 7: I mean, we've been talking about two hours now. I
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 7: wanted to. I wanted to. I wanted to ask you,
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 7: you know what, what what's next for for John? You know,
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 7: what are you working on next?
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 6: Oh? We're we're and it's pained me to say we
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 6: are in a holding pattern right now. We managed enough
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 6: money to really reinvest in ourselves and we're still on
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 6: a few things that we want, you know, production wise,
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 6: we want adopted. Like one of the things that you
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 6: should have. First of all, go to barbar Fitty dot com.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 6: If you have not seen the documentary, you can download
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 6: it there. There are no more DVDs left. I have
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 6: the gill Bug, the guy who does our website, because
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 6: I just I don't look at these things because I
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 6: made it, and I'm you know, in a weird way.
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 6: It's like it was over for me the moment the
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 6: after party wrapped, and then I still had to deal
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 6: with it. And that's like the creator part of it,
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 6: you know what I mean, Like I lived it. I
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 6: had accomplished it, you know. So I don't go to
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 6: Barbara Sweep because I know it there. You know, I
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 6: need the movie. But apparently I just saw a l
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 6: athlete randomly. I wanted to see what the website looked like,
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 6: and there's still and just said DVDs are sold out,
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 6: and I'd say, like once a month, I got an
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 6: email from somebody saying, like when is that going to
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 6: be restocked? And like it's because not everybody knows. Like
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 6: in late January, in early February, we did a kind
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 6: of like going out of business kind of sale to
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 6: liquidate our DVD stocks. Because when you have a normal
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 6: life and like a day job that you have to
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 6: do in the real world. It's really difficult to then
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 6: like run home and like find out what the orders
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 6: are and you know, run to the post office and
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 6: send these things out and just manage the business. You know.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 6: It was just it was it was that time. So
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 6: there there's a VOD there. I shouldn't pay a VOD
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 6: but a direct download rather like probably our free dot
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 6: com that you can purchase if you want to see it.
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 6: My point to bringing that up, other than a shameless
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 6: plug is, uh, it's in standard definition, and a lot
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 6: of it was shot on a handicam in the early
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 6: two thousand, you know, obviously to upgrade a lot of stuff.
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 6: Some of it we did have, but it made no
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 6: sense to interspelict that into our film, like it just
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 6: would have looked like a mess to make. And so
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 6: obviously everything has to be HD. And we wanted better shout,
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 6: we wanted better lighting, we wanted to you know, weren't
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 6: a lot of different things. And once we got near that,
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 6: we started talking about different projects and I only settled
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 6: all in one, and it was going to be about gentrification. Essentially,
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 6: It's going to be urban renewal. Which is like the
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 6: promotional press release version, because we're going through that in
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 6: the city I grew up in, which is Allentown and
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 6: the Hole High Valley in eastern Pennsylvania, and we wanted
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 6: to really study it. It doesn't work, does it not work?
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 6: I mean there's a lot of things involving money. I
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 6: had worked down there during during you know, it's still
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 6: going on. It's like a thirty year project. And they
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 6: built an arena. I mean, the arena was supposed to
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 6: draw all these businesses is in and then draw all
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 6: the people who were in an economic state to spend
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 6: money down there.
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 6: Simulate the economy and all of a sudden, you know,
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 6: the dilapidated downtown area that people are afraid to go
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 6: into will become this beautiful, you know, almost tourist attraction
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 6: that the locals spend money in as well. And I
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 6: just said, this is such a good story and we
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 6: don't have to travel. When we looked at all the
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 6: boxes from what we learned from making a documentary, he said,
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 6: this is dolphin. It's in our backyard. We know some
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 6: of the players. We know the people that talk too.
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 6: We know the journalists, you know, in some cases we
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 6: knew them first person. And I spent a week researching
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 6: and I had a long three hour conversation on the
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 6: phone with Kevin. We had another one in person and
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 6: then and we even shopped in text footage. So we
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 6: went down for the second event at the arena to
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 6: interview people about if they were excited about do we
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 6: know what they thought why this was good for the city.
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 6: And I just figured some there's gonna be some weird
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 6: financial think going out here. It's like there's this special
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 6: dome called the Neighborhood Improvement Dome, and the state just
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 6: gives that money back to the to the people who
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 6: are developing the lands. And I was just like, this
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 6: is they're guarantee their money back and we're talking millions
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 6: of dollars. And just from working down there for a
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 6: few months, I was like, there's something about this. Who's
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 6: who's watching this? Where's the oversight?
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 6: And Kevin said like, look, you know he was Kevin
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 6: right now is in Alaska. He's in Alaska for six months.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 6: He left mid June. We had we both had to
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 6: go to a wedding of a mutual friend and then
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 6: a few days later, I'll pack him up and drove
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 6: them down to the Philadelphia International Airport to fly out.
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 6: So he wanted to put the whole thing on hold.
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 6: He just said there's no point in starting it and
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 6: then me leaving, and it's all being on your back,
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 6: especially because he's far more Texas with the filmmaking. I'm
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 6: the dreamer who puts the story together. I'm a very
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 6: capable editor, but I'm nowhere near gap, you know. And
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 6: he was just like, it's going to be a mess.
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 6: You have to get a replacement person, and you're kind
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 6: of running cat and running a creative vision when you
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 6: interview people or shoot footage. And so we kind of
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 6: put it on old and maybe even like won't do
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 6: it kind of a thing. And then like two weeks ago,
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 6: maybe three, big headline article in the local paper the
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 6: FBI like readed the mayor bownce on mayor's office and
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 6: a bunch of other offices and and I guess in
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 6: reading this happened to or lang caap struct forget and
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 6: now a lot of people including the main and developer,
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 6: who is making are you know, money off of it
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 6: or under investigation apparently by the FBI. I just I
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 6: from Afar. I emailed him the article and I just wrote, like,
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 6: of course this would happen. You know, we would have
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 6: been when did we shoot test Ford in September? And
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 6: I did all my research, so we would have been
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 6: pretty stick into this by now. We would have almost
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 6: been a year in and we would have had the
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 6: contact and had everything, and we would be on the
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 6: ground kind of we're shooting as it happens kind of
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 6: a thing, and which is swiming the tabary. He does
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 6: not like sit down, interview, tell the past kind of stuff. Actually,
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 6: hinstrader parts are the more active parts at the reunion.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 6: In our documentary, we used a reunion of these guys.
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 6: As I mentioned before, it kind of his ten poles
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 6: that we kept coming back to, bouncing between the president
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 6: and the past. That's his favorite stuff. So he would
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 6: have been in love with all of this, and now
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 6: it's all you know, something is going on in that
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 6: story that we kind of felt might be an angle
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 6: of it, and we're not covering it. So that's a
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 6: long way of saying like, hey, would you'd like to
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 6: have seen it? That dinnery yeah, well we would have too,
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 6: but right now we're in a holding time. I didn't
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 6: manage to make a wonderful five minute video for my
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 6: nephew though. For all of you concerned, Hey.
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 7: You always got to be creating John, that's right.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it was an outlet and it was a great
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 6: way to We did it not only to make it,
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 6: you know, make my my nephews feel important, but also
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 6: it was a great way to test out a lot
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 6: of new stuff we had and mess with it because
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 6: it's something where you don't have to be perfect. You know,
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 6: a little kid doesn't care if something's walked out or
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 6: at the light tower, or the mic that you mic
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 6: doesn't work right, or you're messing with the settings of
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 6: your new you know, HD camera or whatever.
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah, very true, you know, And you know, John, I
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 5: want to say, you know, thanks again for coming on
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 5: the show. I know, I you know, we've been chatting
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 5: about ECW and a lot of things that, you know, like,
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 5: I'm definitely gonna have the show notes filled by the
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 5: way everyone, So if there's anything of John talked about
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 5: that you're kind of like, what the hell was that?
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 5: Trust me, I'm going to put a ton of stuff
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 5: on the show notes because I have a lot of
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 5: notes in.
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 7: Front of me right now. John, where if you'll find
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 7: you out online?
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 6: Oh, I'm kind of hiding from social media. I mean,
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 6: if you google my name, you'll find me. I don't
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 6: knew a lot of Facebook. I've been. I've gotten back
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 6: into Twitter only it was a promotional thing that I
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 6: really listen you if you're still listening to it, you
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 6: know I can talk, you know, I may. I may
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 6: not be able to do one hundred and forty two characters,
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 6: so is a little bit of a mess. But you
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 6: can find me on Twitter. I don't even I honestly
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 6: don't know my handle. But if you I there's only
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 6: two Jona Philip Avages in the world, and one of
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 6: them is my dad and he doesn't know how to
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 6: work stuff, so you'll you'll you'll find me.
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 7: John's Twitter handle is at BWC film.
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 6: Do you really can change that? By the way, I
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 6: don't want to know how to change it. You have
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 6: to change that, Okay, good, because like that was something
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 6: that we literally get created for the film, and now
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 6: I just life goes on, like I don't appreciate you
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 6: having me, and it's fun to talk about this stuff.
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 6: But I do have friends who do podcast that they
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 6: have me on for different reasons, and I was like,
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 6: you come on, and you can promo a barber City
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 6: And I'm like, can I just not be the Barbara
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 6: City guy, you know, for once? Can I just have
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 6: an opinion that's balid because I'm me and maybe I
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 6: can present myself.
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 7: Well, well that's what I had you on. I want
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 7: you to.
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 5: I mean, it was more of how to create a
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 5: documentary in general, you know, crowdfunding and stuff like that.
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 7: Never gret week.
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 6: I wasn't throwing k to you, but but I do.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 6: I didn't need to change that, so I'll have to
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 6: talk to you. I'll have to mess you. I'm like
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 6: forty five minutes late to meet a friend who fluid
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 6: from California.
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 5: By the way, Well, ay, John, I want to say
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 5: thank you and please apologize to your friend for me,
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 5: John Philip Pavic, documentary filmmaker.
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 7: John. It was a pleasure and honor sir, and I
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 7: can't wait to see what you do in the future.
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 6: Thank you so much. Yeah, I had so much fun
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 6: doing this man.
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 7: Oh yeah, same here, buddy, and I will talk to
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 7: you very soon. Let's cut you out. Let's not make
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 7: it another like three years before we talk to each
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 7: other again.
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 6: Definitely, definitely all right, take care John, you too, man, byebye.
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 3: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 3: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 3: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 3: head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 3: Forward slash four seventy eight. Thank you so much for
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 3: listening to guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what.
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 2: dot tv.