Latest / The Price of Music / Over 1,000 artists back 'silent' AI protest album, Casey Lowery making debut album through Kickstarter campaign

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Over 1,000 artists back 'silent' AI protest album, Casey Lowery making debut album through Kickstarter campaign · The Price of Music

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  Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, the show that looks at
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  the money behind the music industry with me, Steve Lamac
• 1:19
  and Music Allies head of Insight Stuart Dredge.
• 1:22
  I've been away for for a few days during the past week,
• 1:26
  although had to come back to London for a board meeting of
• 1:29
  Live last Thursday which was very constructive.
• 1:32
  Nothing I can really share at the moment, but there is lots
• 1:35
  going on behind the scenes of live music which we'll tell you
• 1:39
  when we can. Stuart, what about your week?
• 1:41
  And please, whatever you do, don't mention the medical
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  procedure that you had to take your dog for before starting
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  this recording because it made me made me quite nauseous when
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  you have a message to us earlier so.
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  If you're a dog owner, you know what it.
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  Was right, right? If you're not, you don't need to
• 2:00
  know. How's your week?
• 2:01
  No, you know, I had to get it. You know, it was half term and
• 2:03
  and my, my one of my sons went away with on a school trip and
• 2:06
  the other one spent the week diligently not revising but
• 2:09
  playing lots of Fortnite. So parenting's going well.
• 2:14
  I mean, it makes it makes it sound like there wasn't a lot
• 2:17
  going on last week, but there was.
• 2:18
  There's lots of news to bring you once again, including an AI
• 2:23
  protest record. By that I mean a record which is
• 2:26
  protesting against badly regulated AI usage.
• 2:30
  It's not a protest record made by AI, which I guess would
• 2:35
  undoubtedly sound like a very bad version of Bob Dylan.
• 2:38
  We'll get to that. And there's a new start up for
• 2:40
  fans of the musical mash up as well.
• 2:42
  But first, the IFPI annual charts for 2024 had some good
• 2:47
  news for when all the big stars including Taylor Swift, Benson
• 2:52
  Boone and various K Pop artists. You better just remind the
• 2:56
  Stuart what the IFPI is or who they are before you tell us
• 3:01
  about this chart. Yeah, sure.
• 3:03
  So the IFPI is the global recorded music industry body.
• 3:06
  So we talk about the BPI in the UK.
• 3:09
  It's kind of the level above that, that kind of is it the
• 3:12
  umbrella organization for everyone, all the label bodies
• 3:14
  around the world. And it's also got this
• 3:16
  department that spend their time crunching data from around the
• 3:20
  world on sales and streams and figuring out how much everything
• 3:23
  is worth. And I think next month we'll
• 3:25
  probably be going big on this. They do their annual report
• 3:27
  saying here's how much the recorded music is worth, here's
• 3:30
  how the individual countries rank.
• 3:32
  But before that, they kind of the teaser is kind of these
• 3:35
  charts of like the top artists and albums and tracks.
• 3:39
  And those came out, yeah, this week.
• 3:40
  The last week, rather. And everything as expected.
• 3:45
  Yeah, I mean, no one's going to be falling off their chair
• 3:47
  listening to hear that Taylor Swift was the most the most
• 3:49
  popular artist in the world last year.
• 3:52
  It's the third year in a row she's kind of locking into the
• 3:54
  Bryan Adams role of topping the chart for a long, long time.
• 3:58
  And her latest album was the biggest selling album.
• 4:01
  It was the most streamed album. It was the biggest final record
• 4:04
  as well. So she had a dominant year.
• 4:07
  And then Benson Boone, who is kind of a new name, isn't he?
• 4:09
  He's he's sort of sprang to prominence last year and his
• 4:13
  Beautiful Things was the biggest track globally.
• 4:15
  And there's some quite complicated methodology, which I
• 4:17
  won't go into too much, but like he had, he got 2.11 billion
• 4:22
  global subscription equivalent streams of that song, which is
• 4:26
  kind of this metric the IFPI has has calculated that kind of
• 4:29
  turns sales and streams on paid services and streams on free
• 4:34
  services into this one metric of like, right.
• 4:36
  If it had been streamed by only people who pay for music, this
• 4:39
  is how many it would have got. And it's 2.11 billion.
• 4:43
  But yeah, there were some trends in it though.
• 4:44
  So like the first trend is like, honestly, North American artists
• 4:49
  were dominant. Like, so nine of the top 10
• 4:51
  tracks last year were by American artists from the US.
• 4:54
  So it's besides Taylor, it's Sabrina Carpenter, Teddy Swims,
• 4:58
  Billie Eilish, Chaboozy, Kendrick Lamar that were the big
• 5:00
  names. And 16, I think my numbers are
• 5:03
  right here, 16 of the top 20 artists in the world last year
• 5:07
  were North American. And I'm being quite careful
• 5:09
  there because Drake and the weekend are included and they're
• 5:10
  from Canada. And that's something I've got
• 5:12
  wrong in the past and how people from Canada get really cross
• 5:15
  about because that's a really obvious mistake.
• 5:19
  How very, how very Trumpian of you.
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  I know, just annexing Canadian artists since you're North
• 5:26
  American figures. Well, that's it.
• 5:28
  Give it two years and you know, that's not going to happen, I
• 5:30
  hope. But yeah, the other trend and
• 5:32
  this we talked about this last year when this deck came out,
• 5:35
  South Korean artists are still selling a scheduled album.
• 5:38
  So it was a it was a chart for album sales.
• 5:40
  So it didn't include streams. It just included sales of
• 5:43
  digital albums and physical albums, CDs and vinyl.
• 5:47
  And 17 of the top 20 selling albums in the world last year
• 5:50
  came from K pop artists, which, and again we've talked about as
• 5:53
  well, it's because they're fans, They buy physical albums.
• 5:56
  That's part of K pop culture as you go and buy the album and
• 5:59
  then you stream it lots too, but you buy it and often you buy
• 6:02
  multiple copies either because you love the band or because
• 6:04
  there are multiple variants, you know, different colours.
• 6:07
  So that's still happening. So there's all these capable
• 6:10
  acts that are kind of, you know, but they couldn't quite beat
• 6:12
  Taylor Swift, but they're dominating that chart.
• 6:16
  And the other trend, which hasn't got to talk about that
• 6:18
  much, but it's quite local to us, is that there's no British
• 6:21
  artist in the top 20, which might lead to another bout of
• 6:24
  kind of worrying here about what's happening.
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  I guess the caveat to that is, like, Ed Sheeran was off cycle
• 6:31
  last year. Adele's not making albums at the
• 6:33
  moment. Dua Lipa did release an album,
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  but it didn't do as well as expected.
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  So to some extent, this was a year when the biggest British
• 6:41
  stars weren't weren't in competing in the mix there.
• 6:45
  And when Adele brings an album out, she'll be in that chart for
• 6:48
  that year and so on. But but yeah, so it's kind of
• 6:52
  kind of the expected, but this is it's kind of a good ranking
• 6:54
  of who the superstars of the streaming era are.
• 6:57
  So obviously it's only covering that the biggest albums, the
• 7:00
  biggest artists. But when the Big Report comes
• 7:02
  out next month, we'll find out more about the trends underneath
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  that. OK, now if you if you were
• 7:07
  listening last week, you'll remember this.
• 7:09
  We brought you rumours of a new premium tier of Spotify.
• 7:15
  There were all these stories going around that Spotify were
• 7:18
  about to launch a new tier primarily aimed at what the
• 7:22
  industry are describing as super fans.
• 7:24
  But amongst the things that this tier would offer reportedly was
• 7:28
  the the chance to buy geek tickets upfront before they went
• 7:33
  on general sale. And I said at the time, I said
• 7:35
  last week, this sounds sounds very complicated because you
• 7:39
  have to have the artists and the major promoters on board for,
• 7:43
  for this to happen. And they already sell upfront
• 7:47
  tickets through other, other avenues.
• 7:50
  But then we found out this week that Live Nation has confirmed
• 7:55
  it has been in talks with Spotify, Apple and Amazon over
• 7:59
  just how to include ticket pre sales in these up and coming
• 8:02
  super premium tiers. That's that's right, isn't it?
• 8:05
  There is obviously something going on behind behind the
• 8:08
  scenes here where there is discussion about how this might
• 8:12
  work. Well, that's it.
• 8:13
  And this is what I love about this story, because there were
• 8:15
  all these leaks saying Spotify is planned to do XY and Z, and
• 8:18
  that includes tickets. And you have to sort of say,
• 8:20
  well, they haven't announced it yet, it's not official.
• 8:22
  These are leaks and rumours. And then Michael Rapinoe, who's
• 8:26
  the boss of Live Nation, who literally doesn't have to worry
• 8:29
  about offending, all about kind of what he says, You know, he's
• 8:32
  powerful enough to say what he likes.
• 8:34
  He just came out and told analysts, yeah, Spotify,
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  apronyms and have all approached us, and we're working with all
• 8:39
  three of them to find a model. So he kind of has confirmed
• 8:42
  that, yeah, this is part of the plan, that if you pay extra for
• 8:45
  these services, new premium tiers take a spot.
• 8:48
  And the good thing is, and the good thing for us is that he
• 8:50
  agrees with us, which is a relief.
• 8:53
  And he basically he was talking to financial analysts who are
• 8:56
  quite interested in what this means for Live Nation's
• 8:57
  business. And he was saying, yeah, you
• 8:59
  know, we're, we're talking to them.
• 9:01
  We're kind of, we maybe find a model.
• 9:02
  But he was like, it's going to be complicated and it's going to
• 9:04
  be expensive for them because this is, this is so valuable.
• 9:08
  These these pre sale tickets are valuable.
• 9:10
  Fans want them. And he was talking about how in
• 9:13
  Ticketmaster's case, they work with brands like Verizon, which
• 9:17
  is like a big telco firm over there, like equivalent of
• 9:20
  Vodafone, someone here and Citibank, like financial firms.
• 9:24
  And they have their pre sale windows, don't they?
• 9:26
  So if you have a certain credit card you can get in.
• 9:28
  Yeah, exactly that, yeah. And there's a lot of money in
• 9:31
  that. And so he was saying, well, if
• 9:32
  you want to, if you want to, if you want in to this, it's not
• 9:36
  going to be cheap. So stump up basically, which I
• 9:41
  guess is kind of negotiations go on spot for saying we'd love to
• 9:43
  get a bunch of pre sale tickets for our premium users and and
• 9:46
  Live Nation will be saying, well, OK, well, what's the money
• 9:48
  on that? What's the value to you?
• 9:50
  It's not going to be free. So but yeah, the other thing
• 9:52
  here is that that it's kind of Apple is is famously doesn't
• 9:56
  like talking about things before they're announced.
• 9:59
  Amazon too. They keep their cards close to
• 10:01
  their chests. But he said, yeah, they are
• 10:03
  looking at this too. It's not just Spotify.
• 10:05
  So we could be looking at a future in a few, I don't know,
• 10:08
  in a year's time where three of the biggest streaming services
• 10:11
  are all wanting to offer tickets.
• 10:12
  But again, it's it's it's not just Spotify competing against
• 10:18
  those brands and artists own fan club pre sales.
• 10:22
  It's going to be Spotify and Apple and Amazon all saying we
• 10:25
  want some pre sale tickets, please.
• 10:26
  So it is going to be a big gunfight.
• 10:29
  I'm quite interested in how that shakes out and how how they all
• 10:32
  get into this at the same time, because it could be quite
• 10:34
  complicated. Right, it's time for this week's
• 10:39
  AI story. There's a lot of musicians
• 10:42
  obviously are annoyed by various implications of AI.
• 10:46
  That won't surprise you, but in this case, they're showing their
• 10:50
  disapproval at how the establishment is going to
• 10:53
  regulate AI. More than 1000 musicians
• 10:57
  including Kate Bush, Diamond Albarn, The Clash and Cat
• 11:01
  Stevens are all backing a silent album protesting at the UK
• 11:06
  government's plans on AI training.
• 11:09
  That's quite an eye-catching line up.
• 11:12
  Tell us about this. I do hope.
• 11:14
  Is it called the Sound of Silence?
• 11:15
  If it isn't, it should be. The hills are alive with the
• 11:19
  sound of silence. Yeah, Now it's called.
• 11:21
  Is this what we want with some kind of Sex Pistols esque font
• 11:25
  typography in it, Right. Yeah.
• 11:27
  So if I'm if I'm sounding a bit one, it's because up at midnight
• 11:29
  coordinating our cover because it's one of those embargoes that
• 11:31
  it's 12 O 1:00 AM. Which?
• 11:34
  Frankly, is a is a big, a big annoyance when you're a
• 11:37
  journalist wants to go very early.
• 11:39
  So yeah, it's it's so I start with the background to this
• 11:42
  because we have talked a bit about it.
• 11:43
  But yeah, so the government here is holding this consultation,
• 11:47
  which is saying essentially what should the rules be if you're an
• 11:49
  AI company wanting to train your model on copyrighted stuff,
• 11:53
  whether that's music or news articles or TV shows or
• 11:57
  anything. So all kinds of copyrighted
• 11:59
  content. And it, it announced this and it
• 12:02
  said, actually we've got some ideas, we want to hear your
• 12:05
  views, but we've got some ideas. And it's idea is that there
• 12:08
  could be an opt out system. And, and this is, this is
• 12:10
  something that's quite important to explain where the system
• 12:14
  would be. If you're an AI company, you can
• 12:16
  use copyrighted content, you can train your model on it Willy
• 12:18
  nilly, unless the person who owns that content, which in this
• 12:21
  case would be labels and publishers, has said, no, I'm
• 12:24
  opting out, you've got to come to me and get a licence for
• 12:26
  this. And that's the government today,
• 12:28
  which, which kind of sounds on the, on the face of it, sounds
• 12:31
  quite good. It sounds like it's giving the
• 12:33
  musician music industry control and saying if you don't want to
• 12:35
  have your stuff used for training without payment, you
• 12:37
  can say so. But the industry hates it and
• 12:40
  the creative industry is hate it too.
• 12:41
  News publishers hate it. Everyone thinks opt out is a bad
• 12:45
  idea. They don't think it'll work.
• 12:46
  They're not sure how it will work.
• 12:48
  They don't really trust the AI companies to respect it.
• 12:52
  And we've talked about how one of the big demands our industry
• 12:55
  has for AI is you have to be transparent about what you're
• 12:58
  training on. You have to tell us what you're
• 12:59
  training on because they don't at the moment.
• 13:01
  So if the theory is right, I'm opting out.
• 13:04
  You can't use music to train your AI, but you're not saying
• 13:06
  what you are training on. If there's a trust gap there,
• 13:09
  you're like, well, you could just be doing it anyway.
• 13:12
  And it's very but yeah, this is the thing, something that sounds
• 13:15
  quite good actually, the the music industry hates it.
• 13:18
  So at midnight, two things happened.
• 13:21
  So this campaign went live called Make It Fair.
• 13:23
  And if anyone who is in the UK has bought a newspaper today,
• 13:26
  are they, I think they've all got the same cover app about
• 13:29
  this Make It Fair campaign. They're all coming out together
• 13:31
  and saying we think this is a terrible idea.
• 13:33
  Please think again government. And that's that's kind of being
• 13:36
  led by the news media. But then music we're we're well,
• 13:39
  we haven't released music they've released, like you say,
• 13:42
  this album of I mean, I thought it was a silent album kind of
• 13:44
  John Cage style or I think, didn't Monty Python do a silent
• 13:49
  album as well? Someone was telling me.
• 13:50
  Recently. But this is it's recordings of
• 13:53
  empty studios and performance spaces, which and the idea there
• 13:58
  is it's kind of showing you its future where without positions
• 14:01
  if AI. So it's kind of a making a
• 14:03
  point. And how many track, how many
• 14:06
  tracks are? There's about 10 tracks on it
• 14:08
  and the the track titles are things like the UK government
• 14:14
  must and so each each track has a word attached to it which
• 14:19
  builds into a sentence saying do not.
• 14:22
  Must not legalise music theft to benefit AI companies.
• 14:26
  And it's because I think all these artists you mentioned like
• 14:29
  Kate Bush, Damon Orban, The Clash, Cat Stevens, Sam Fender,
• 14:32
  they're all listed as Co writers on this.
• 14:35
  Even though because I thought, does that mean 1000 track album
• 14:37
  and they've all given a recording, but it's not it's
• 14:39
  kind of they're all support to get and you can listen to it on
• 14:42
  Spotify and there's a bigger picture, so.
• 14:47
  Have have you listened to it? I, what if I, I listen, I listen
• 14:51
  to three tracks, one track sounds and it is, as you say,
• 14:54
  it's just, it's atmospherics. So it's just background noise
• 14:59
  essentially. It's not complete silence.
• 15:01
  It's just there is a track. I think it's about the third or
• 15:04
  fourth track in it was the last. It's as far as I got, but it it
• 15:08
  sounds like it sounds like when well, it sounds like when a man
• 15:12
  of my age sits that's plonks themselves into a chair just so
• 15:16
  you can just hear somebody go and it's just background noise.
• 15:22
  Someone's going to press the button to record the studio,
• 15:25
  haven't they? So that's what they've got up to
• 15:26
  do that they're sitting down. And then I started thinking,
• 15:31
  what is that? The sound of Kate Bush sitting
• 15:33
  in a chair. But of course it wouldn't be,
• 15:36
  would it? It's just engineers possibly
• 15:40
  recreating the noise of a musician stubbornly refusing to
• 15:45
  plug in their instruments and record anything because they
• 15:47
  think the music will then be used irresponsibly and for no
• 15:52
  money. Well, it's true.
• 15:54
  And it's funny, I think because like, do you remember a few
• 15:55
  months ago the music industry was quite cross about white
• 15:57
  noise being on streaming services and now, now, oh wait.
• 16:02
  So it's kind of there's an but there is a bigger picture that I
• 16:04
  wanted to kind of, well, pick your brains on and talk to you
• 16:06
  about because you're I think you're seeing how government
• 16:09
  works from live live's point of view.
• 16:12
  I think the music industry has been pretty much unified here.
• 16:15
  Like they're pulling together and saying we hate these
• 16:17
  proposals. This idea of having to opt out
• 16:19
  is bad. Please think again.
• 16:21
  Do AU turn. But what's happening in the
• 16:24
  background is there was this big Keir Starmer has done a couple
• 16:27
  of speeches recently and they're saying about he wants Britain to
• 16:29
  be an AI superpower. And this is something that's
• 16:32
  actually happening around the world.
• 16:33
  A lot of governments going, yeah, we really want to be at
• 16:35
  the cutting edge of AI. It's the next industry we can
• 16:37
  see big growth from. And there's this big ambitious
• 16:40
  plan in the UK for AI, which it published recently, which is
• 16:43
  kind of good, exciting stuff. Like they want to use AI for
• 16:46
  medical science and find ways to help it unlock new inventions
• 16:50
  and discoveries and like good stuff.
• 16:53
  But what's been happening is some of the tech companies and
• 16:56
  the AI companies have been kind of whispering in the
• 16:59
  government's ears or even shouting out loud publicly that,
• 17:03
  but copyright is a bit of a problem for us.
• 17:05
  There's this copyright uncertainty.
• 17:06
  We don't know what we can trade on.
• 17:08
  It really needs to be, you know, we could do all this cool stuff
• 17:10
  if only you could sort out this uncertainty.
• 17:12
  And uncertainty is the word they use.
• 17:14
  And it's got the music industry's backup because the
• 17:16
  music industry thinks there's no uncertainty.
• 17:18
  You want to use our stuff, you pay for it.
• 17:20
  And that that should be the the principle.
• 17:22
  So the worry, and I've got this creeping worry actually in
• 17:26
  writing about it, is that government's going to be so like
• 17:30
  we've got to become an AIOC power and the IO companies tell
• 17:33
  us copyright is a problem. So we need to clear that
• 17:35
  obstacle and I worry they're going to be kind of, that's
• 17:41
  going to be the view that sticks with them rather than actually
• 17:44
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  EBay things people love. Yeah, which is the point that
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  the music industry is making, I think.
• 18:57
  And they're all, as you say, all pretty much making the same
• 19:00
  point, that the one sticking point around AI is this idea
• 19:04
  that you opt out because it's complicated and they don't
• 19:08
  believe it will work. But that's the thing which is
• 19:12
  uniting, as you say, everyone from record labels to right
• 19:16
  societies, They were all handing in their submissions.
• 19:22
  We're recording this on on Tuesday the 25th.
• 19:27
  So the consultation I think officially ends tonight, one
• 19:30
  minute to midnight. So by the time you hear this,
• 19:33
  all the submissions will be in and there'll be an awful lot to
• 19:37
  wade through. And I think still questions to
• 19:40
  be asked if you are opting out, you saying, no, I don't want you
• 19:44
  to train on my music. Who do you opt out to and in?
• 19:50
  Do you have to opt out from every music service
• 19:54
  individually? Where, where do you start?
• 19:58
  And if you have opted out, then how do you enforce that?
• 20:05
  That's going to be the thing. What's the what's the plan?
• 20:08
  How do you police this? If a little artist says I don't
• 20:12
  want to be part of this, I don't want you to train your AI on my
• 20:17
  music, then you haven't got a lot of power.
• 20:21
  And are you going to be able? Are you going to spend all day
• 20:26
  listening to AI music which you think sounds a bit like me?
• 20:32
  Yeah, but it's it's weird, the other thing that's been and this
• 20:35
  is something that's in my head still, so it may not come out
• 20:37
  completely fully formed, but two people I've interviewed
• 20:40
  recently, one was the Ifpi's boss, Victoria Oakley, so the
• 20:44
  labels body. And the other is Ed Newton Rex,
• 20:46
  who's quite a key figure in all this.
• 20:47
  He's the organiser of this silent album.
• 20:50
  He's a veteran of AI music and he's been leading the charge for
• 20:53
  the music industry saying bad things are happening.
• 20:57
  And I interviewed him actually the other day for this this
• 20:59
  story. And what they both said was
• 21:01
  they're both worried about this idea that all the stuff you
• 21:05
  could do with air, all the cool stuff you could do in, in, in
• 21:09
  health curing cancer, all this stuff is being smoothed together
• 21:13
  with we need to get rid of the copyright problems.
• 21:17
  And what they both said very clearly is it's this is not the
• 21:20
  case. Like you don't need to train an
• 21:22
  AI to cure cancer on all of Ed Sheeran's music.
• 21:26
  And that was something a new wrestling.
• 21:27
  He said Ed Sheeran can't cure cancer.
• 21:29
  And he sort of then thought, no disrespect to Ed, which is which
• 21:33
  is true. So that that is, I think the
• 21:35
  worry that that this this everyone, governments everywhere
• 21:38
  are like, we really need to be at the forefront of AI and the
• 21:42
  music industry of argument is yes, and you can do all that
• 21:44
  stuff, but you don't need to drive us under the bus while
• 21:48
  doing it. You can.
• 21:49
  And that is the point they're trying to get across.
• 21:51
  And I suppose the the pessimist in me says, I wonder if AI will
• 21:55
  win because everyone, the government's so excited about
• 21:57
  that. But the optimist in me says the
• 21:59
  music industry is working really hard at the moment to kind of,
• 22:03
  in this case in the UK to sort of try and force AU turn.
• 22:07
  But this argument's going to be had elsewhere around the world.
• 22:09
  I think a lot of countries are watching what's happening here
• 22:10
  now and seeing how this argument gets across and learning from,
• 22:14
  you know, what can you use to persuade people that you know?
• 22:16
  And the other thing that's come across actually, and not to keep
• 22:18
  banging on about it is this is often talked about as like AI
• 22:22
  versus the music industry and that governments have to pick a
• 22:25
  side, you know, they have to go, you know, and the other thing
• 22:28
  that music people are saying is it shouldn't be that way.
• 22:31
  You don't have to pick a side. You can do, you can, you can
• 22:34
  spend a bit more time figuring out rules and laws where no one
• 22:38
  loses out. Like AI companies can be
• 22:40
  innovative and musicians don't get harmed.
• 22:43
  And they, the music industry is worried that actually that's the
• 22:46
  AI, some people in the AI world who are saying to politicians,
• 22:49
  no, you do have to choose. It's one or the other.
• 22:51
  It's copyright or it's innovation.
• 22:53
  And that's the other part of this argument is saying actually
• 22:55
  there is a future where everyone can win, but you need to make
• 22:59
  the rules very nuanced and and with a lot of thought.
• 23:02
  And that's what they think isn't happening here.
• 23:06
  Writes Next. Regular listeners will already
• 23:09
  know that Stuart doesn't have like playing around with music,
• 23:14
  whether that's through AI software or this, which, I mean,
• 23:20
  this must have been music to your ears.
• 23:23
  I imagine Stuart when you came across this news that a new
• 23:27
  start up called Mash app see what they did there wants to let
• 23:32
  anyone make their own music mash ups but with labels and artists
• 23:38
  getting paid. Tell us about Mash App and have
• 23:41
  you have you used it yet? Well, I haven't used it and the
• 23:46
  main reason for that is it's only out in the US so far, which
• 23:48
  kind of is a testament to how complicated doing the licensing
• 23:51
  deals for this is. It took four years for this
• 23:53
  company to license it, and so far only yes.
• 23:56
  But yeah, it kind of reminds me. Do you remember the prime era of
• 23:59
  the mash up? Oh, radio soul, golden era.
• 24:02
  Yeah, yeah. Strokes and Kylie Minogue,
• 24:05
  Public Enemy on everything with with every conceivable backing
• 24:11
  music that you could find, every conceivable beats or loop with
• 24:15
  Public Enemy over the top. We've got hundreds of them,
• 24:17
  yeah. Yeah, which remember, Sugar
• 24:19
  Babes had that massive hit. And I think there was, they
• 24:21
  initially said, we don't really know Gary Newman, but it was
• 24:23
  like Gary Newman, like amazing, amazing times.
• 24:26
  And that was there was it? It was a weird because it was
• 24:28
  kind of unofficial, wasn't it? Like some of those things ended
• 24:31
  up properly licensed, but most of them were just put together
• 24:33
  in someone's bedroom and then played in the radio or, or or in
• 24:36
  live DJ sets. And mash up is, and the other
• 24:40
  thing is it, it took skill, I think, because I've tried to do
• 24:42
  it and any idiot can play a track over another track and
• 24:46
  make a really bad mash up. But the really good ones, it
• 24:49
  still is a degree of production and expertise and being able to
• 24:53
  make it sound good like it wasn't.
• 24:55
  It wasn't something anyone could do in their bedroom.
• 24:56
  It was something you needed some amount.
• 24:58
  But this style called mash up is like, right, Well, we want to
• 25:00
  make it really easy for you to mix two or three songs together
• 25:03
  and create new stuff. And one key point here is it's
• 25:06
  got licensing deals with all three major labels and hopefully
• 25:10
  independence too. So it's gone by the book and
• 25:12
  said, right, we're going to get them to say, yes, you can do
• 25:14
  this. It's an iPhone app, so it's very
• 25:16
  easy to use and you can use it for free in a limited way.
• 25:19
  But the, the the better features and the powerful stuff needs you
• 25:22
  to pay 999 a month. So the same, well, just a bit
• 25:25
  less. And you pay for Spotify, Apple
• 25:26
  Music to be able to do this. And obviously that's money going
• 25:29
  back to those labels and publishers and the songwriters
• 25:32
  and artists. So it's kind of a fun,
• 25:35
  interesting thing. It it still feels a bit
• 25:39
  potentially niche to me. Like one thing I learnt was I
• 25:42
  like, I like listening to brilliant mash ups other people
• 25:44
  have made. I'd maybe I don't need to make
• 25:46
  them. Maybe no one needs to hear my
• 25:47
  mash ups. So it will depend on how easy it
• 25:50
  really is to use and how good the songs really sound, but also
• 25:53
  how you can share them. Like you can't go and upload
• 25:55
  them to Spotify, I'm sure. So how can you share that?
• 25:59
  Like you've done a really good one.
• 26:00
  How, how, how easily can you share it with friends and they
• 26:03
  share it on. That's going to be quite
• 26:04
  interesting. But yeah, it's it's kind of a we
• 26:07
  talked recent one, there's other rumours about Spotify's plans
• 26:10
  for it's super fun do is they might be working on some form of
• 26:13
  mixing, playing about with music.
• 26:15
  So we might be going into this era where this becomes something
• 26:18
  that more music listeners can do if they want to and and we'll
• 26:20
  find out if they want to do it, I suppose, because that's the an
• 26:23
  answer question. Yeah, but yeah.
• 26:26
  Right, while we're talking about tech actually, and Spotify has
• 26:29
  come up a few times already this week, but there's a new
• 26:33
  streaming service though, the new kid on the Block, which has
• 26:37
  launched and but it's for rock and metal fans really.
• 26:42
  And it also it's a streaming service with a slight twist in
• 26:45
  that when you when you sign up, some of if you nominate an
• 26:49
  artist, some of your subscription money, I believe
• 26:52
  goes straight to that artist. Tell us about that.
• 26:55
  What's it for a start? What's What is the rock and
• 26:59
  metal streaming service called? It's called.
• 27:02
  Rock could have done a little better, they could have done a
• 27:07
  little bit better than that, so I was expecting something with
• 27:10
  loads more KS in it at least. I go the AI go the RAWK route
• 27:16
  Rock. But it's it's rock, rock double
• 27:19
  K OK, yeah. It's been founded by a pair of
• 27:22
  metal Hard Rock musicians and that's its focus.
• 27:26
  And yeah, it's cost 1099 a month, or you can pay 1999 for a
• 27:29
  higher tier with kind of more features.
• 27:32
  And yeah, key to it is like 10% of your payments in your first
• 27:35
  year go to an artist to I mean, it's not quite free reign.
• 27:38
  You can't just say any artist. It's like you have to sign
• 27:41
  artists can put links out saying sign up for rock through my link
• 27:45
  and I'll get 10% of your payments.
• 27:46
  So it has to be an artist who's supporting it, and it goes down
• 27:49
  to 5% after that first year on the lower tier.
• 27:51
  But if you pay the higher tier, you carry on donating 10%.
• 27:56
  And yeah, it's been tried before, like streaming, title of
• 27:59
  streaming service did it for a while, this idea of artist
• 28:01
  payments. So part of your money goes to
• 28:02
  artist you choose or your favorite artist.
• 28:05
  And it's a really nice idea. And the other trend here, it's
• 28:09
  like people have talked about this idea of some of the genres
• 28:12
  that maybe aren't served as well by the big streaming service
• 28:15
  services. So classical music, jazz
• 28:18
  examples, but metal and and Hard Rock as well.
• 28:21
  Like all that music is on Spotify and Apple Music.
• 28:23
  But there's an argument that the play, the playlists tend to
• 28:26
  focus on other things, the stuff you recommended.
• 28:29
  And people in those worlds think, actually, can't we just
• 28:32
  have a stuff of just this music that we love and have it super
• 28:34
  served and have all features focused on what we.
• 28:36
  Love, do you think that is a thing that, you know, obviously
• 28:39
  in this ongoing era of fragmentation in the music
• 28:42
  industry and how we consume music, could this could this
• 28:46
  catch on then or is or is metal at one off?
• 28:49
  And do you think there will be more genre specific streaming
• 28:53
  services catering for fans of that music?
• 28:56
  I mean, it sort of picks up going back in a strange way to
• 28:58
  the idea of the Super fan. And if you're a super fan of one
• 29:01
  particular genre of music, then I just want to pay to listen to
• 29:05
  to that. So will we see more of this, do
• 29:09
  you think? I like the idea that people are
• 29:12
  trying it because we don't really know, like people have
• 29:14
  tried some things in the past and, and nothing has really
• 29:16
  taken off in a massive way. But it's a really good idea for
• 29:20
  for those genres that have really tight communities and
• 29:23
  tight communities of artists too.
• 29:24
  And one thing I think is maybe maybe the future for this is not
• 29:28
  just about streaming the music. Maybe it has to be about the
• 29:30
  community more as well and have have a space people to gather
• 29:33
  and chat about the music and talk about gigs and and do stuff
• 29:37
  with artists. Have artists do like, I feel
• 29:39
  like you want to bring in some of that social community stuff
• 29:41
  around the streaming and that would be quite exciting.
• 29:44
  Yeah, that's true. That's very true.
• 29:45
  Yeah. But you, but you are doing on a
• 29:46
  budget like, like you're, I suppose you're the kind of
• 29:49
  artisan local store compared to like the enormous supermarket
• 29:53
  chains of the big streaming services.
• 29:55
  And, and sometimes those stores do really well and the community
• 29:58
  loves them and supports them. And sometimes they get squashed
• 30:00
  by the supermarket down the road.
• 30:02
  But it's interesting. I, I, I love seeing people
• 30:05
  experiment and say, well, what, you know, we, we don't want to
• 30:08
  launch this another Spotify. We're going to try another idea.
• 30:11
  And I think genre could be one of the things that gets some
• 30:14
  mileage. And the, the question now for
• 30:16
  rock is how it signs people up, how it gets artists to promote
• 30:19
  it. And this idea of they can get
• 30:21
  10% of your subscription that might encourage artists to go,
• 30:24
  yeah, we'll support this. So.
• 30:25
  Yeah. Talking of ongoing themes and
• 30:28
  trends and to when and just changes in the way the music
• 30:32
  business is working. As you've mentioned actually
• 30:35
  Stuart, on a number of occasions recently, artists will see
• 30:38
  increasingly looking to work outside of the record label
• 30:41
  structure is one of the reasons why we're mentioning this, which
• 30:45
  is quite, it's an old idea almost, but seems to be coming
• 30:49
  back into fashion as we learn that the the British artist
• 30:53
  Casey Lowry is using a Kickstarter campaign to make his
• 30:57
  debut album without a record label.
• 31:00
  And I'm not really come across Casey prior to this, but he has
• 31:04
  four million odds TikTok followers and one of his songs I
• 31:08
  listen to sounds a bit like an early Noel Gallagher acoustic
• 31:11
  number. But tell us more about this, if
• 31:14
  you will. What's the story?
• 31:18
  I like the theme. Yeah.
• 31:19
  So he is a musician from Chesterfield.
• 31:21
  He's been trying to make it since he was a teenager and
• 31:25
  didn't have much success. And this is his words in the
• 31:26
  kick start pitch. He explains why he's doing it.
• 31:28
  So I'm not being rude about him, but he didn't he didn't really
• 31:31
  have much much luck. And then he joined TikTok and
• 31:35
  yeah, he literally has 3.8 million followers on TikTok.
• 31:38
  And for comparison, he has like 92,000 listeners on Spotify,
• 31:42
  which is not a criticism of him. It's more just like this is
• 31:45
  where he's built his audience on TikTok and now he's figuring
• 31:48
  out, right, can I turn this audience of watching my my short
• 31:51
  videos into something that pays me my album?
• 31:54
  So, yeah, and like you say, Kickstarter's been around for a
• 31:56
  long time. And I remember writing back in
• 31:58
  the day about Amanda Palmer using Kickstarter.
• 32:00
  I think I've mentioned this before.
• 32:01
  And, and suddenly everyone was like, wow, Kickstarter's the
• 32:03
  future. You don't need the label.
• 32:05
  Just go to Kickstarter and do what she did.
• 32:06
  And people have used it, but not not to the extent of like super
• 32:10
  millions and millions of quid. It's more been something that's
• 32:13
  like grassroots artists have used.
• 32:15
  And yeah, so Casey, he's trying to, he tried to raise £10,000.
• 32:19
  He's already at 24,000 from nearly 560 backers at the time
• 32:23
  of writing. So he's, he more than doubled
• 32:25
  his goal. And so one, I think it's a good
• 32:29
  news story because he is obviously he looks like he works
• 32:32
  hard, he plays live gigs. He's not just a tick tocker, he
• 32:35
  plays live gigs. He's been grafting on the live
• 32:37
  circuit as well as kind of finding an audience online.
• 32:40
  He's very engaging and he's building something beyond those
• 32:43
  crazy figures, which is the other trend I think here, which
• 32:46
  I'll try this out on you and I'll see your just by your face
• 32:49
  how how sensible it is. But like 3.8 million TikTok
• 32:53
  followers, 560 of them have put money into his album on
• 33:00
  Kickstarter. And that again is not a
• 33:02
  criticism saying he's rubbish only that many people want to
• 33:05
  pay. It's more saying for the modern
• 33:06
  artist, you can reach huge audiences on TikTok and other
• 33:09
  places, but the meaningful people are the ones who then go
• 33:13
  to the next step and say, right, I'm going to give you some
• 33:15
  money. I want to help you do your
• 33:16
  album. And he is, it might only be 560
• 33:20
  people, but that is going to help him release this album,
• 33:23
  give him some money to kind of go on to support it.
• 33:26
  So he's figuring out that idea. And again, it comes back to
• 33:28
  super fans. He's figuring out who in his
• 33:30
  huge audience that might have seen his videos and liked him on
• 33:32
  TikTok is willing to stump up. And that is taking him the next
• 33:37
  step. And it's, it's, it feels like a
• 33:39
  story to me that although there were some big numbers in it, it
• 33:41
  feels like a story of small steps and graft of like, how can
• 33:45
  I release my album without a label?
• 33:46
  I'll do this. I'll try this.
• 33:48
  So here's a good example. I think of an artist just
• 33:51
  prodding at the system and prodding at the different things
• 33:54
  he can use and figuring out, right.
• 33:56
  Here's how I can make my music and take it in its level.
• 34:00
  And so it's a good story. I can say to my new Samsung
• 34:05
  Galaxy S25 Ultra hey find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and
• 34:09
  text it to Beth and Steve and it does without me lifting a finger
• 34:12
  so I can get in more squats anywhere I can one. 2. 3 Will
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  than you think with Capella University.
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  Learn more at capella.edu. I mean, the interesting thing I
• 35:06
  think will be to to obviously follow this story on through to,
• 35:11
  you know, the release of the album.
• 35:13
  Now he's got enough money to make the record.
• 35:15
  How successful that that that's that is as a way of doing
• 35:21
  things. And then what does he do next?
• 35:24
  Because this and people are talking about this and I know
• 35:30
  having looked looked him up and weirdly, I think it's probably
• 35:33
  because people are talking about him using Kickstarter and how
• 35:37
  popular it's been and he's, you know, already beaten his target
• 35:41
  of money that he wants. Radio One played the track the
• 35:44
  other day, which and he posted something to say this is crazy
• 35:49
  Radio One who've, you know, never told previously told us my
• 35:53
  music is rubbish and will never be on the radio.
• 35:55
  All of a sudden I'm on the on the radio.
• 35:57
  So does this, does this manner, does this story then generates
• 36:01
  more interest in him. And then then what do you do?
• 36:06
  Because obviously labels will go, Oh well, he's done all
• 36:08
  right, it's here and the stats are good.
• 36:10
  And look at these TikTok figures.
• 36:11
  Maybe we should have a punt at that point.
• 36:14
  Do you go, no, I'm going to persevere and carry on doing it
• 36:18
  the way that I did the first album or I I go back to the
• 36:23
  traditional route or I find another way of doing things.
• 36:27
  So that's going to be the interesting part of this story,
• 36:30
  I think as as it develops. And when you have that community
• 36:33
  of your fans, those those core people, you can talk to them and
• 36:36
  say, look, I want to have a full orchestra on my next album or,
• 36:40
  you know, whatever you want to do.
• 36:41
  And I could go to a label and try and get money to do that.
• 36:44
  But do you think you would fund that and you can then ask them
• 36:47
  and find out? I mean, the other thing I think
• 36:48
  is interesting about this, This ties into one of our shows we
• 36:51
  did way back last year. Do you remember we interviewed
• 36:52
  that that duo Charlie Tyler, who were big on ticks and like they
• 36:57
  were kind of Tik Tokers doing music, but actually they were
• 37:01
  talking about how he'd been playing on the circuit for like
• 37:03
  what years and years and years, hadn't he?
• 37:06
  And similarly, I think that's the other thing, people kind of
• 37:08
  can be quite snobbish about Tik Tokers doing music.
• 37:10
  Someone who's TikTok popular doing an album.
• 37:12
  But it turns out a lot of people who've who are doing music on
• 37:16
  TikTok, they've been trying for years to do it the traditional
• 37:18
  way and maybe it didn't quite work out.
• 37:20
  So they're not just some sort of fresh faced influence.
• 37:22
  Again, I quite fancy doing a song.
• 37:25
  They're musicians who who are just figuring out the best way
• 37:29
  to to get that momentum rolling. So that's why I think TikTok is
• 37:32
  interesting. It's not that it's a bunch of,
• 37:34
  you know, it's not that it's a bunch of kind of, I don't know,
• 37:38
  trust fund influency people testing out music.
• 37:42
  It's it's actual grassroots indie musicians who've who've,
• 37:45
  you know, played something. People like it.
• 37:47
  So yeah, all power to him. Finally, for this week, well, do
• 37:51
  bear this in mind when you're making your sci-fi soundtrack or
• 37:56
  your spy thriller theme tune, or even if you just want a weird
• 37:59
  noise for your newly penned atmospheric pop epic.
• 38:04
  Musicians can now buy official samples from the archives of the
• 38:10
  BB CS Radiophonic Workshop. The Radiophonic Workshop, which
• 38:14
  if you don't know, this was, I mean, it was absolutely, it was
• 38:17
  a groundbreaking depart of, of the BBC based at the Maida Vale
• 38:22
  Studios and specializing in special effects, Although they
• 38:26
  did create music as well, including the theme tune to
• 38:30
  Doctor Who. But they were just this
• 38:32
  inventive team of what, what music boffins in a way.
• 38:37
  But they, you know, inadvertently they opened up so
• 38:39
  many ideas for future electronic artists.
• 38:43
  But now, yes, you can. Now you can dig into this, this
• 38:47
  extraordinary archive of stuff which they created over the
• 38:52
  years. You'll need to pay for it, but
• 38:54
  how does how does it work, Stuart?
• 38:56
  Yeah, well, it's good and I think you've put it really
• 38:58
  brilliantly because it they are the people who created the
• 39:01
  Wibbly woo woo noises and Doctor Who and so on.
• 39:03
  But like electronic music artists, they're venerate,
• 39:05
  they're venerated. Like DD Darbyshire who made
• 39:08
  Doctor Who theme. The whole team of people there
• 39:11
  were just, they were, they were breaking technology to make the
• 39:14
  stuff they were making. So, so yeah.
• 39:18
  And it's, it's, it has been sampled like the Doctor Who,
• 39:20
  like Orbital did a thing with Doctor Who theme, didn't they
• 39:22
  famously live? And like, people have used these
• 39:25
  sounds. But this is now official.
• 39:26
  So it's a company called Spitfire Audio, which magician
• 39:30
  the producer will know. It's somewhere you can buy
• 39:32
  sample packs and plug insurance and studio tech and they've
• 39:37
  worked with the BBC to mine those archives.
• 39:41
  And yeah, it costs £149, so it's not cheap, but they've done a
• 39:45
  proper job on it. They've gone back to the
• 39:47
  archives. They work with some current
• 39:49
  musicians and producers as well and collaborators of the, of the
• 39:52
  the workshop to kind of create sounds to go with it.
• 39:55
  So it's a real, it's not just like a, we've found some samples
• 39:58
  here they are. It's, it's kind of a, it's like
• 40:01
  a, it's equipment of a box set for a record.
• 40:03
  I think it's properly curating it and, you know, and it's just
• 40:07
  a reminder there is money in this kind of thing as well.
• 40:09
  Like if you can. You can sell beats and samples
• 40:12
  and packs of sounds and there's so many musicians now making
• 40:14
  music at home who are looking for that.
• 40:18
  So it's a, it's a good news story, I think again.
• 40:20
  And, and it's, it is that thing of, of in writing about this, I
• 40:25
  learnt a lot about the radio phonic workshop that I didn't
• 40:27
  know before as well. So it's the other, it puts it
• 40:29
  back and it explains to you who these people were, what they
• 40:32
  did, how they did it. And when you when you get into
• 40:34
  the how they did it, it's kind of head spinning, isn't it?
• 40:37
  Like the techniques they used, they were making up on the hoof
• 40:39
  in a in a way. And it's brilliant.
• 40:42
  So yeah, it's, it's a good it's and it's a, it's a sign that
• 40:45
  this stuff from the archives isn't just history, it's
• 40:47
  something that can be used. Yeah.
• 40:49
  And yeah. And emphasize, I mean, it's a
• 40:51
  great legacy that everyone left behind.
• 40:54
  The when eventually. So interestingly, wasn't there a
• 40:59
  story that basically when when the department was sort of
• 41:03
  disbanded, there were just loads of types of stuff just lying
• 41:07
  around and then they were going to clear their offices and
• 41:10
  people squirreled away all these, all these old master
• 41:14
  types, which they're now using now.
• 41:17
  That's that's a classic BB. So well, we're done with this.
• 41:20
  And then about 20 years later thinking where was that stuff?
• 41:23
  Because that's all in fashion. Who would want that episode of
• 41:25
  that groundbreaking system that's.
• 41:27
  Absolutely. Not only that, I was in so down
• 41:31
  on the Kent Riviera for a few days last week and Ramsgate has
• 41:35
  now got 2 second hand record shops and one of them
• 41:39
  particularly had a massive selection of second hand albums,
• 41:43
  all library music, library music and effects.
• 41:46
  And as you say, that sort of thing that's it's like, this is
• 41:50
  the, this is the online sci-fi equivalent or electronic
• 41:54
  equivalent of digging in the crates that hip hop artists do
• 41:57
  that, except you're giving money to obviously the, the, the
• 42:03
  people or the estates have. I love the idea of made this at
• 42:06
  some point you've got to turn up to one of those second hand
• 42:08
  shops with a truck when you're when you're next having a clear
• 42:11
  out, just say and then, oh God, Steve Lamatt's coming in quick
• 42:14
  clear some shelves. We need more space, but.
• 42:16
  Yeah, I chatted to a guy in one of the shops and he says that,
• 42:21
  you know, they still, they get people are doing house
• 42:25
  clearances. You know, people will come in
• 42:28
  whose relatives have sadly passed, passed away.
• 42:31
  And I don't know what to do with these records.
• 42:35
  And also there's the there's the constant influx of vinyl which
• 42:42
  has been left in storage warehouses, you know, you can
• 42:45
  cut off. I'm moving house.
• 42:46
  I haven't got room for these records now, but I'll just put
• 42:49
  them in storage and I'll get them back later.
• 42:51
  And so many the last time I had to do that myself, the guy
• 42:55
  looked at the records and he and and sort of sizing me up going
• 42:59
  will he be back for these? And then he said, you know, you
• 43:01
  know what about like over 1/2 when we when people default and
• 43:07
  we'll stop paying for their storage over 1/2 when you when
• 43:12
  you walk in and go right, we'll have to take this stuff is, is
• 43:15
  old vinyl. But mind you, that's going back
• 43:18
  some years now, possibly now old vinyl being worth something,
• 43:21
  maybe not so much. But.
• 43:23
  I think the other thing here actually is I had AI did an
• 43:25
  interview recently with a chap called Mark Mulligan, who is
• 43:28
  from Media Research, one of the analysts, and he had this quote
• 43:30
  that it might send a chill down your spine.
• 43:31
  I don't know, depending on what you think of AI, but he was
• 43:33
  talking about this the, the sampling culture and he was
• 43:37
  saying, yeah, we used to have crate digging and then we had
• 43:39
  splice digging, which is kind of going to those online services
• 43:42
  looking for samples that you can find.
• 43:45
  And he he said he reckons the next thing is going to be prompt
• 43:47
  digging, like people figuring out what prompts to feed an AI
• 43:51
  to create an amazing sample. And so this is all way, this is
• 43:55
  all in motion. Like how do you get, how do you
• 43:58
  get new sounds to use or old sounds sometimes for new music?
• 44:01
  And yeah, although AI might be the next thing where you're
• 44:05
  getting an AI to make you a completely new sample.
• 44:08
  I think this really frantic workshop which shows that
• 44:10
  there's there's still so much stuff out there in the archives
• 44:12
  that could be repurposed. And that's where we'll leave it
• 44:15
  for this week. Thank you very much for
• 44:18
  listening as always. We do hope that you found
• 44:21
  something of interest in the last half an hour.
• 44:23
  Don't forget, you can ask us if you haven't, you can ask us any
• 44:26
  questions that you want or, or well suggest subjects if you
• 44:30
  care to things that we might be able to look into in more depth
• 44:33
  for you or possibly talk to a guest about anything musical,
• 44:38
  which has a cash implication. And that's pretty much most of
• 44:41
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• 44:43
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• 45:02
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• 45:07
  out more. Till next week, take care
• 45:09
  everybody. Good luck out there, Cheerio.
• 45:40
  Oh.