Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / Album 6 Track 13 - Cult Branding: Kobe Bryant Brand Nerd

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Album 6 Track 13 - Cult Branding: Kobe Bryant Brand Nerd · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: Brand Nerds. Another Brands, Beats, and Bytes podcast. And while none of the producers on the show, uh, LT, like me to date the show, LT: You always do though, D. DC: I always do it. I always do it. I can't help myself. It is NFL Draft Day Thursday, 2024. That's what's going down today. And LT, would you like to know what city the draft is happening in? LT: Uh, in your wonderful hometown of Detroit. DC: The D! Okay, what up, Detroit people? So, this is Football Thursday. And, uh, Brand Nerds in football, you all know that folks get hurt. I'm physically hurt, and I have an acknowledgement. Brand Nerds, I'm hurt. I got a broken hand. I have a torn hamstring. My shoulder is busted up. I have lacerations and bruises, and it's all because I, uh, I went running on cement, and the cement won. Unfortunately. The cement won. Now, at this point, Brand Nerds, you may be wondering, Well, now, uh, brother, are you gonna get to, like, where this connects to the gas? I'm about to get there. I'm arriving at a point. Arriving at a point, I promise you. So what I'm doing, Brand Nerds, is I am undergoing quite a bit of physical rehabilitation. I'm taking care of myself physically. But what I most need Is some, uh, spiritual rehabilitation. I, I, I need to be around folks who fill me with two specific things. One is wisdom, someone that can fill me with wisdom. And the second thing is someone who can bring forward a level of compassionate humanity and bring those things together. And during this podcast, Brand Nerds. We have one of the few people I know who does both daily. Who's in the house, LT? Who's in the building? LT: Oh, D, this is gonna be a good one. We have BJ Bueno in the house. Welcome, BJ. BJ Bueno: Hey, thanks for having me, guys. Wow, so excited. LT: We're thrilled to have you, BJ. So, okay, Brand Nerds, as DC mentioned, uh, we have someone in the house who's also, uh, a great friend of the show and dare I say in our 150 plus episodes I can honestly say BJ is a true brilliant original. BJ was born to a missionary family in Santiago, Dominican Republic and he grew up in places like Bolivia and Peru. As a nine year old boy camped in the high peaks of Peru. He immersed himself in books and learning magic, books and learning magic while his peers were playing baseball and going to school, BJ was mastering the secrets of the world's greatest magicians and pouring over the work of brilliant minds like Carl Young, Abraham Maslow, and Joseph Campbell. BJ's passion and love for the art of illusion were evident to anyone who saw him perform and by age 17, his exploration of the mysteries of the unknown led him into marketing and advertising. As a perpetual student of the mind, he began exploring new ways of blending the fields of humanistic psychology, comparative mythology, history, religion, and psychiatry into his masterful discipline of consumer marketing and advertising. By age 23, he had delivered keynote speeches to the Harvard Business School, Fortune 500 companies, and top universities throughout the world. In his lectures, BJ explains that successful marketing is comprised of what we know about life. If it matters, it will sell. If it tastes good, it will sell. Let the customer taste it. BJ has built a reputation based on his insight and expertise into building brands. He founded and operated his own successful ad agency before becoming a partner in Non Box, a national agency, and eventually BJ moved on to, onto his current position, becoming founder and managing partner of The Cult branding company, a boutique retail consulting and marketing strategy firm located in Orlando, Florida. BJ has had many prominent clients over the years, such as SAP, Kohl's Department Store, Apple, the Life is Good company, the LA Lakers, to name a few. Additionally, BJ is a renowned author in our marketing space. His works include Customers First, Dominate Your Market by Winning Them Over Where It Counts the Most. He's co authored The Power of Cult Branding and gone back solo for the Cult Branding Workbook, and Why We Talk the Truth Behind Word of Mouth. With all his great work and his books as a backdrop BJ is a sought after keynote speaker for organizations large and small And as an interview suBJect with prominent outlets such as cnn usa today in the new york times brand nerds This one's going to be really good. Welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, BJ Bueno. BJ Bueno: Thank you guys, man. That is amazing. A lot of, uh, been working at it for a while. Still at it, still at it. LT: Still doing great stuff. BJ. You've done incredible work. BJ Bueno: You know, I, I'm a big fan of you guys as well. I, uh, When I had the chance to spend time with DC and work together, you know, it was like, he was talking about the work that you guys do and how you guys think about positioning brands and fixing them in that space. Of course you guys are the doctors, but I was just like, you know, DC knows. I was just like, man, these guys are amazing. So I'm a huge fan. I follow you guys. I'm a, you know, I'm a, I'm a Brand Nerd myself, I would like to say. LT: Yeah. Thank you, BJ. DC: Yeah. All right. All right. Brand Nerds. Um, I, I, I tipped my hand a little bit at the beginning about, um, you know, what I think about BJ, but I, I just want to fully tip the hand now. Uh, BJ and I are friends. We have been friends for a long time. And even when he and I do not talk with one another for a period of time, as soon as I hear his voice, I light up with glee. It's as if we were sitting together in a car because he and I have driven from Orange County up to LA and back and all that guys. So BJ is my friend. He's my boy um, and so uh BJ this next section is called Get Comfy. BJ Bueno: Awesome. DC: Um, and so i'm i'm gonna go into an area that you know, but i'm gonna set it up with a with a quote Uh, by a gentleman, um, that has been on our podcast, BJ, his name is Oren. What's Oren last name LT? LT: Oren Katzeff. DC: Yeah, Oren Katzeff. Shout out Oren Katzeff, one time. And, and BJ, what he's, what he said to us is, he actually taught us this. You think about, uh, great movies, TV programs, content, books, whatever it is, the ones that separate themselves have one thing in common. They tell you the stuff you don't know about the stuff you know. Yeah, the stuff you don't know about the stuff, you know. BJ Bueno: Exactly. DC: Yeah, we adhere to that. Um, and it's in, in some ways, there's a connection to magic and the stuff you don't know about the stuff, you know, but I'm gonna go to a different place. Um, you and I had the unique experience of, uh, of getting a call to become a part of a small group of at the time, four people, or people. And, um, they told me about, uh, the two people told me about you. I'd never met you before. Never heard of you before. This is how we met y'all. And, uh, and, and then you later told me, they told you about me. BJ Bueno: Right. DC: And, uh, and then eventually we get on, it almost seemed clandestine. It wasn't clandestine, but it felt that way. It felt like, Ooh, what are we going into here? Like we, we couldn't talk about it. We couldn't talk about it. BJ Bueno: Right. DC: And guys, uh, and Brand Nerds. Here was the group, BJ, me, Rob Palenka, and Kobe Bean Bryant. And it was when Kobe Bean Bryant was starting his first business foray into the marketing space, in the branding space. And they found BJ. And me, and I'd already worked with Rob and who I affectionately call. BJ Bueno: Well, you, you, you were the first person to put him on TV. So you taught him the game. So let's just get that part right. I mean, Kobe's a master at what he was, but you, you, you taught him and say, Hey, you got to build a brand, bro. Cause when he came to me, he's like. Dude, I got to build a brand and you know what? He was more interested. I got to build a cult brand because I'm a cult, you know? So he knew that part. It was like, that was the combo. But he was like, I got my dude that told me how to build the brand. You're going to meet my guru and he's going to meet you. And the two of you are going to figure it out. So I thought it was awesome. Yeah, definitely. It's like he knew you already taught him the foundation. DC: Thank you. LT: That's awesome. BJ, I'm glad you added that. I want to set a little bit of foundation. I'm going to get out of the way. So the Brand Nerds know, cause you don't like to talk about this. So Brand Nerds. DC, what BJ was alluding to is DC brought Kobe into the Sprite world and Kobe became someone very important to what DC was doing with the Sprite brand with Obey Your Thirst. So that's what BJ was alluding to. So I just want to correct. We want to make sure that the Brand Nerds understand. What that foundation was. So no, yeah. BJ Bueno: And since we're in, since we're in the presence of nerds and you know, I have been where other nerds get afraid of the one nerd in the room. So this is to me, these, these like that nerd that I'm like, Oh no. Dun dun dun dun dun. Bueno, come here. I've heard about you. So, no, but honestly, you know, the power of it was that I already knew because Kobe was Obey Your Thirst. And the other thing was. You were the first to bring hip music. So it was the combination. So that's another thing that you had the culture part. Kobe was a part of it was everybody looks up to that star, but then you also brought in the music, which taught him the culture. And of course you have been a master of integrating culture into your branding space. But I just think, again, I remember Kobe, no, like seeing that framework for him was like, I kind of think I have to become cool. DC has the formula, but I also want followers. So it's like, maybe I can figure something out here between what these gentlemen have, but it was awesome. Yeah, I totally was just super impressed by being in the same room. LT: So D keep going painting that picture. If you don't mind. DC: So, so thank you. Thank you, brothers. Thank you, my brother. I was also impressed after I began to study BJ because Larry, like you and I and Jeff and our team and BJ more than being teachers, we're students, we're students. So BJ is a student, you're a student, Larry, I'm a student. So I started studying, uh, uh, BJ. Studying his work, getting into this notion of which I'd never heard of before, by the way. But whenever I heard of cult, I always thought, oh, that's bad. That's bad. But fundamentally, it's about people following something, getting into something. So I studied BJ, uh, and then I was like, oh man, I cannot wait. I cannot wait to meet this guy. So here's my question to you, BJ, looking back now and, uh, and Kobe's gone. Rest In Power. But we know what this brother did. We know what he did, not just in the game, but outside of the game. We know what he did and what he meant being in, being on a call with him, like three way call you, me, him, Rob and other folks, and our meeting with him in an intimate settings, that kind of thing, what did you learn from this brother? What'd you learn from Kobe Bean Bryant? BJ Bueno: Me personally, there's a lot I took away. One thing I think is of the time that you and I met him, you know, and that's an interesting question. I hadn't quite thought about that, you know, and that's interesting. I have written a little bit about it. You know, I kept it very private, our relationship to this day. I really don't speak about it much because there was a lot there like that. We were going through as building the brand and, you know, it was a very sensitive time. So I kind of building ahead of some privacy, but one of the things that I really loved about the time that we all spent together was one of the calls that you probably remember this, but it was like one of those afternoons and Kobe was at practice with his daughter Gigi. And, and, and she had to go swimming and we got talking about sort of the humanistic side of it, that he was also a dad, that he's also like, how do we think beyond the role? And so it's like, we're dads, we're marketers, we're CEOs, we're entrepreneurs, we're students, we're... You know, the, all these roles that we play, and then when we try to like hold on to one role as the one role that kind of, that it kind of becomes like the highlight that role kind of wants to kill all the other roles because there only could be one and that's not good for us. And I think that that was a time that both you and I were kind of expanding his, uh, as friends more than anything that it was nice that he was spending time with his daughter. We were like, yo, let's talk later. And it was one of those moments where he was like, thanks guys. And it was like, he was human. And, and it made me think that, you know, No matter your clime or how you might be a demigod among men, you know, taking time to be human, to reconnect with family, with friends, to your kids swimming, and then thinking about, you know, what's happened since then and the fact that those times were special, then I think it's, it's, it's one of those things that I'm glad that, you know, we always knew I felt when to take time away from business, And just allow for him to be a human and for us to be people. And like, we, you know, you would play some dope music on the way to there. And we wouldn't talk business the whole way. We would just allow ourselves to have a moment of being individuals. And then we'd step into this role of marketer, CMO, whatever, all this fun stuff that we love doing, but that, you know, taking time. To be a person, you know, being an, an individual, just connected of that. Cause you remember where we met, right? We were at the, at the Dave and Buster's in the back of David, but it wasn't like a fancy restaurant. It was like the first original meeting was David. And that was like, that's where he likes to hang out in the back. And he's like, yeah, if I had more time, I would go shoot some hoops with you guys. You know, people started bugging me, but he wanted to just like show that he was at the same level that he wasn't coming with like his trophies or an ego that he was like, yo, You guys are here to help me and i'm also going to help myself like i'm not coming here with his giant ego. So a lot of times Because I'm not a news person. I don't watch the news. I would have a conflict between how to read the news and the man I met. LT: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. DC: Wow. So, BJ, um, you talked about keeping this private. The only time that I have publicly spoken about this, the only time, is now. Right now. I've never said a word about it. Those that are close to me, they know, but I've never spoken, never on a podcast. We've done more than 150 of these. The reason why I wanted to ask you about it and bring it forward to the Brand Nerds is, is out of respect. And then also, uh, you just don't know folks until you get really close to them. And as you said, what may be on the news, is not necessarily representative of the human you meet, and I know that there are only a few people in the world that have that experience with him, and you're one of them. Yeah, yeah. BJ Bueno: Well, and I mean, since we're talking to Brand Nerds, one of the things that I would share with them is when you go through a brand discovery process, one of the games that you should play is. Pretend you're an alien. You have, and now the downside, the reason why people don't like the strategy is because then you sound dumb. You at, but you remember all the kinds of dumb questions that I would ask Kobe, like all day long. Like, so why, what's the triangle offense? Like, I don't know what that means. It's like, I hate these guys. They don't know the triangle offense. We were all day. Like, I already know this. It was like, he's getting frustrated with his co workers. Like, what is that? He's like, are you serious? I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about, dude. Explain it to me. Like, what is it? It's like, well, and then he ran into it and he broke it down. How that, what everyone has an archetype and they're supposed to play a role. And he taught me, you know, he gave me a 20 minute education on how the triangle offense works and it's like a diamond that cuts into the offense and it's rotating. I'm like. Wow, that's incredible. And, and, and who came up with that? So then you start asking these questions as a brand discovery process. If you come in with, well, I read Phil Jackson's book and I have, then you cut the other person off. And I think that then that also, if you want to be a Brand Nerd and want to discover new things, you got to act like an alien. You got to sometimes be like, I don't know. Tell me about it. And allow for that space to be filled. That's uh, DC: I just want to say this one thing and then we'll go to the next section. Larry, any thoughts you have on this? So, all right, I'm going to tell us this, this 1, 1 of the story. BJ will remember this. So, uh, as we were, uh, working with, uh, with Kobe on his brand, um, 1 of the things that Kobe and who I call link, what they wanted, uh, us to do is have alignment. Uh, with the Lakers. So that's how we ended up getting the Lakers as a client. And so if you're going to be in alignment with the Lakers and the Lakers brand, you have to meet and work with the Lakers. So there was one meeting that, uh, me and BJ were in, uh, Palenka. I don't, I can't remember whether with, uh, uh, Kobe was there or not. I don't, I don't remember Kobe. And you might think BJ Bueno: Phil Jackson was in there. Okay. Phil was there. DC: Jenny Bus was there and Phil came in. Okay. So here we are. So BJ and I, we're sitting there and we're walking through like, This is what's happening with Kobe, the brand and we'll talk about the Lakers. So what do you remember from that, from that meeting? And we were like in a little room, uh, at, at the Lakers practice facility. I think it was El Segundo. BJ Bueno: Yeah. DC: What do you remember from that meeting BJ? BJ Bueno: I mean, I have photographic memory, bro. You know, DC, I can get into detail, you know, well, you had just broken, you had just breaking down for them, how the brand lover allowed them to sacrifice and focus and remember one of the, one of the issues that the Lakers were having was that they were getting no renewal for their, um, sort of like their, their ticket holders, like annual holders. Yeah. They were not like renewing up at the speed that they were. And there was some concern. And I mean, there was some parts of the meeting. They're like, we're not sure what the league is standing. And I remember the Phoenix Suns were in competition on the other end of the spectrum. So then all of a sudden DC breaks into like, what does the brand do? And it forces you to sacrifice and it forces you to focus. And one of the pillars that, uh, we had uncovered, DC and I working together, was that the Lakers were a beacon of hope. LT: Yeah. DC: Yes. LT: That's awesome. BJ Bueno: Oh, bro. You know, Hey, I'm an elephant, man. Unfortunately, it's not always good, but, uh, but Phil was like, yes, that's what the people need, a beacon of hope. And then he broke down how in Chicago that there, well, one thing I took away that on the negative side was that he felt that there was never enough success to go around, but if you could just get that success to the, to the, to the fan, that was the way. Because then each athlete could feel part of it. But yeah, I remember that meeting was incredible. I mean, they were both just like this is great. And, uh, remember you had the whole brand book binded in a leather, it looked like a basketball. It was really like super on brand. I loved like the way you packaged everything. I mean, that was, they were just, you know, they, it was their first time seeing like the cohesion between the two. And I think Jeannie obviously was super impressed as well. She, she was very happy. LT: So I want to, I want to just say I'm getting out of the way, but I want Brand Nerds to understand Jeannie is Jeannie Bus. Who is now the, um, one of the, one of, uh, Jerry Bus's children who is really the managing director, I believe, and is the point person, right, of the ownership of the Buss family right now. And Rob Pelinka, I just want to establish for the Brand Nerds, Rob Pelinka, at the time that BJ and DC were working with him, he was Kobe's agent. At the time. Right, right guys. And now Rob and BJ Bueno: Best friend, I would say they were like inseparable. LT: Right? And, and now Rob Pelinka is the general manager of the Lakers and has been for some time now. So I just want the Brand Nerds to understand. DC: Thank you. LT: What the, this delineations of the people that you guys are talking. That's it. DC: Thank you, Larry. Okay, so BJ, the fact that you remember this detail is blowing my mind, but brand nerds, I, I wanna get something straight here. BJ's like. DC, I remember you said this and beacon of hope and you came in with this. All of that was stuff that BJ and I did together. Don't let this dude fool you. Every single thing in that book, all of the strategies, all the words, BJ and I did that together. Okay. So just to be clear. BJ Bueno: Oh, no, no, for sure. For sure. And I appreciate that. But DC, man, you know, you have to, you know, you have to let me give you some flowers. You guys do such a good job giving flowers for everybody. You know, I wanted to. Come in, you know, armed. I have some for LT too. I, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm prepared this time. I know that you guys do such a great job building other folks. And I just, you know, I'm a fan of what you guys do. So I want to come reciprocate. DC: My man, my man. Wow. BJ. Beacon of hope. And I remember, uh, when we were explaining this to them, how there was a pause and they were like, wow, you're right. And, and, and Phil was like, that's it. That's it. And I was so happy. I knew that BJ wouldn't do this, but I didn't like, but I was like, I just hope we don't embarrass Kobe. I just hope we, I hope we represent the brilliance of this young man. That's what, that's what I was hoping and, and we did a pretty good job, BJ did a pretty good job. BJ Bueno: Hell yeah. Oh yeah. No, we crushed it. They were, you know, and then Kobe's brand took off, you know, we switched from eight to 24, you know, a lot of the strategies were rolling. We were popping. Like you guys like to say, we were, we were, we were off. DC: Yeah. BJ Bueno: Everything took off for them and a lot of good. So, you know, I, I think again, a lot to learn, uh, from his life for sure, but I think our time together was definitely special because we were in a spot where he was vulnerable and we both came from a place of protecting him and using our skill set, uh, to create a brand structure around him that allowed him to be both human and commercial. Remember that's some of our big conversations too. LT: That's deep. DC: Yep. All right. All right lt we're going to go to the next section Uh, I I don't know that i've had a more personal Get Comfy discussion In the history of our, uh, of our podcast. And I'm able to do that because I'm talking to my brother here, BJ. LT: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. DC: Yeah. BJ Bueno: Well, you guys waited a little while. God's good. I got good at podcasting and I refused to start a podcast because I just want to be a, a guest and cool podcast like you guys. So this is, this is my chance. You know, you guys are giving me a shot here. I appreciate it. DC: Cool. BJ. LT: You're killing it already. DC: All right. LT. We're going to five questions, brother. So BJ, this is how this goes down. We hit you with five questions. I go one, Larry goes one, back and forth until we arrive at five. I get a chance to take the first shot. So, BJ, take yourself back. You are young shorty, or you're young in the game. You have a branding experience that just captivates you. You can't get it out of your mind. You can't spend enough time with it. When you, when you think you've been engaged with this brand for like 10 minutes, you look, you look at your watch, you like, has it been three hours? I thought it was just 15 minutes. Almost like a first love. What was that brand or brand experience for you, brother? BJ Bueno: Oh, wow. I had to think about this and it's cool question because sometimes when I work with consumers, I'll ask them a similar thing, you know, I'll say like, Hey, what was your first dawn of consciousness with this brand? So when you guys said, Hey, think about the first experience you had with a brand that really captivated you. Sorry for my language, but it's fucked up, guys. Like, I honestly was like, holy crap. So my first experience is with Coca Cola. When I was a kid in DR, Dominican Republic, um, my, my mom loved Coca Cola. She still does. And there's, there's a whole story behind that because we're, we're from Cuba. And, you know, it was. Very special to go to Coca Cola in Cuba. So as a kid, a Coke was like a big deal. So growing up in the yard, Coca Cola will run these promotions where you would get a couple of the tops. And if you, you know, collect them, then they would give you a free yo yo, like a professional yo yo. So then we went into the fair that year and Coca Cola, I guess, had brought some folks. I was a kid. I was like sick, but this is like literally first on of a brand. And I'm collecting every possible thing, collecting the yo yos. Then I see this master yo yo guy doing stuff with Coca Cola, things like this. And I'm like, I got to collect all these. And I'm of course, in love with the yo yos and all these things. I bring this with me on our mission trip through Peru, through Bolivia. And when I get to, uh, Bolivia, uh, as a school trip. I mean, it's just, I've never been asked this question, so it's crazy you guys are asking, but it's like, literally, something, you know, it's like, it was crazy because I'm like, man, my origin story in marketing is just the funniest thing. So I'm in Bolivia on a school field trip, I must be like, fourth grade, fifth grade, they take us to the Coca Cola bottling company. And I'm like, of course, like a kid, like going to a Snickers company or whatever, you guys, like, if you love, uh, you know, I'm like, this is great. And they take, show us the whole plant, whatever. And I am like, this is how they put it in and all that. And then they take us to a little side room where this woman, very beautiful woman, as I remember, as a kid gets up. And begins to the lights go dim and a screen comes on and she tells us the history of Coca Cola and the brand and how it acts and how it lives and basically she's giving us like a brand presentation for kids. I didn't know this at the time, but I had this feeling in me that I was like, I want to do that, which she's doing. Like that was like my first. I was like, that is so cool. Like companies have stories and this lady's telling me the story and I like this company. So it was like, that was, I remember the first time that I really was like, It even, like, sort of woke up in me, like, I want to do, I didn't know what she did, I didn't know what it was, but I thought it was cool as shit. I thought it was the coolest shit ever, that she was telling us this cool ass story, and the lights went dark, and the video played, I was like a sucker for it, like, I'm like. You know, I loved it, I just thought it was the coolest thing, and since that day, You know, everything around me, you know, when I got back to the States as a kid, I just like love business, love entrepreneurship, love presenting, love content, love marks, love brands, love, love marks. You know, the whole process was like contagious to me. I was like, I fell in love with Ogilvy and with Burn Back. And I would just start reading, you know, like pouring over like sort of the people that build the industry. I didn't know I was like reading shit that was 1950s. Like I was super late, but that's what I filled my head with. You know, it was like that. Original, you know, experience. So that, you know, it's not, I know Americans look down at Coca Cola like a sugar water, but man coming from a third world country, bro, I was like, this is it, man, didn't you people know how to do it? Free yo yos, cool stuff, refreshing drink. I got you. Yeah. You're my, you're my thing. So that was like my earliest experience with a brand that I just like really attached to. DC: Wow, LT: That's incredible. D, I really don't have anything to add to that other than the fact that I felt like BJ took me to that side room with this beautiful woman, who was taking, and we've seen these movies because of DC's and I having worked within the confines of that wonderful place on North Avenue in Atlanta. So, we really understand that part, but for a six year old to be, as you use the word, captivated, um, brand nerds, that is like kick ass marketing right there. BJ Bueno: Oh yeah, no, I was, I was, I was, I was sold. DC: Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't have anything either, but I was sitting right next to you, BJ. BJ Bueno: Yeah. Bro, it's messed up to say that I have worked for amazing brands, but when I got to go to Coca Cola and work for, for Coca Cola for a couple projects, that was like when I was calling my mom, I'm like, yo, you're not going to believe where I'm at.. LT: Okay. All right. So BJ, we're going to go to the next question. That was amazing. So BJ, who, uh, who has had, or is having the most influence on your career? BJ Bueno: Um, this one, this one for me is really, I would say the field of psychology in essence. I mean, I love data sciences. I just love knowledge. I think knowledges have the most influence. I'm a big fan of Daniel Kahneman who just passed away. Uh, he wrote the book Thinking Fast and Slow. I'm a huge fan. DC knows this of Abraham Maslow. I think it's super classical psychology, but if you look at some of the processes that as marketers were asked to solve for customers, they'll ask us things like, well, what need does my brand fulfill? So for a long time, when I first got going, I used to try to like figure that out by brainstorming it. But then I realized that psychologists and folks that work in humanities, Actually, that's what they ask themselves. What do humans need? So they have a better, clear answer to that than me as a marketer, because I have a strong bias to try to sell you my product. Right. So then I realized that that bias was kind of blocking me. So then. And being able to develop clean strategy, basically. So a lot of, I think my biggest influence is, you know, psychology, you know, I, you know, cognitive psychology, you know, really understanding what is a brand, basically a brand is a, it's a memory is an associative memory. So the work of Eric Kandel. You know, like he won the Nobel prize for, uh, basically how memories are stored in our brains. The work of Steven Pinker, the work of, um, you know, folks like Maslow. And also, like I mentioned, Daniel Kahneman who just passed away at 90. I think, I think thinking fast and slow should be read by every marketer. I mean, you want to talk about a magic trick. He's breaking down how system one and two. You know, collaborate, but you can actually, you know, and this is the part that, I mean, I'm talking to Brand Nerds here, but, you know, this is one of the pet peeves as a marketer, when I talk to lay people, like business owners or CEOs are like, well, just sell the product. I'm like, okay, go ahead. Well, you go ahead and you put out a message that says, buy my product and see how that works. If it was that easy, wouldn't, you know, we would be out of the league. Like there were, there would be no Brand Nerds, but be, because, but to speak to the unconscious. To the beacon of hope to what's underneath and what makes the Lakers amazing or whatever brand you're working on That takes a little bit of digging and I think that sometimes when you talk to normal business people They don't want to dig in there, but I feel like psychologists have done the work for us, so i'm not like inventing anything. I'm more of a synthesizer i'm saying guys Maslow studied what humans need. So if your brand deals with need he might be a good dude to to peer into his work, right? LT: That's really deep Uh, Jade can you put that book in the show notes for us too? Because I think that that's something that uh, It's foundational to what BJ is talking about. Um, i'd like to BJ I don't know if you've ever heard of the book The Happiness Advantage. Have you heard about it? BJ Bueno: I've heard about it. I haven't read it, though. LT: It's a great book. It's Shawn Anchor the gentleman, and it's also psycholo that's why it's psychologically based, and the point of it is that most of psychology is based of in predicated in what's wrong with folks. And this comes at it from the other, like, what makes people, you know, what what brings people joy? What You know what gets people healthy side of it. Yeah. And so Shawn is, I saw him speak and I read the book and Jade, let's put that one in the show notes too. And the premise of it is that the happiness advantages when people think, well, all I need to do is, you know, get that great job or, you know, Get that great girlfriend or, you know, um, you know, when you're striving for things and thinking that this, that once you attain those things, or I'm going to make all this money and buy a beautiful house, that once you attain those things, you're going to be happy. That is wrong. Um, the way to look at life is to decide I am happy and to find gratitude in the most smallest things and to decide to be happy. And that's where it comes to happiness advantage. And so that you're not thinking of results orientation, you're taking control and you're deciding to be happy. And by the way, when you do that, things tend to work out for you. So I, uh, I, I love that. I really recommend the book and whatnot. BJ Bueno: I want to take a look at that. That's great. I love that. LT: By bringing up psychology, that's a different kind of psychology. So absolutely. BJ Bueno: No, that makes total sense. I mean, Once you figure out you can ride the horse on top. It's a lot better than the alternative, you know It's like once you realize that there's a positive ways of getting there. It's amazing. I mean, that sounds fantastic. LT: Yes that's good BJ Bueno: Hey, I had to bring a little you know, are you love it he's great LT: D what are you thinking? DC: I got two things. The first one is this, um, one of our mentors, uh, and who's influenced us greatly is a gentleman by the name of Jim Emory. We call him Jimbo. So he he's, he's like the influencer of our work, uh, and, and, uh, and, and all of that, that's, that's Jim Emory. I was talking to Jim once and, um, and I was telling Jim, Hey, Hey, Jim, you know, you know, we're, we're in the branding business when he said, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're in an entertainment business. You're in the entertainment business. And so your story, your Coca Cola story, when you were sitting down and the lights went dark and the screen came down, that kind of thing, uh, that was entertainment. And so, uh, I've added to that Jimbo. I think we're in the entertainment business. And the psychology business, which is what you're talking about here. And Larry, I did not know until BJ mentioned it, what it is that we have been attempting to do in our marketing careers. And what I believe BJ has now identified as those that are the best marketers. Yes. We love data. We love data. Gotta have the science that's the left hemisphere of the brain. We love that. Then there's the right hemi hemisphere of the brain with the, uh, with creativity. But what BJ said is you speak to the unconscious and I think this is what the best marketers are able to do. They can go around the brain and go, what is subconsciously going on with you? And they can tell that, Oh, this is, this is the need you want. You want to feel brave. Ooh, let me just tickle that little brain need you have. And then you will, you will now buy my deodorant because you think it makes you feel more brave. That's brilliant BJ speaking to the unconscious of the subconscious. Can you say a little bit more about that brother? BJ Bueno: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, well, you just nailed it. I mean, we've been working on it for, for so long. I mean, you guys probably just take it for granted because you guys are like pros, but what I love always about your marketing was let's just go to something classic, you, you took a brand that was. The Sprite in you. Okay, that's cool. And it had a time like 1950s. That was a great tagline for, you know, 1950s America. Obey Your Thirst speaks to the unconscious. Don't obey your head, obey your thirst. And what does your thirst tells you to grab? A Sprite. Yeah. So to me, you've done this, you know, it's like, I'm just like, you know, I'm a curator in the museum, you know, and I'm like, and this campaign worked really brilliant because, you know, this market, you knew exactly that there's a thirsty aspect of the customer and that's the part that's going, give me something. And also, um, I had some fun working on the Slurpee brand a little bit, um, for 7 Eleven, you know, which came through Coca Cola. So since Coca Cola is the biggest vendor for them, they asked us to come up with some work for 7 Eleven. And I landed on a spot with the agency was basically do something Slurpee, which was sort of spontaneous act. And it came from the behavior of the consumer, pouring themselves crazy slurpees with like, you know, all the way to the top or bringing a bucket in. So I remember thinking the same way as like, if there is something that you can tell the unconscious, like, Hey, it's okay. To do this little itch that you have and the brand gives you permission. DC: Mm-Hmm. . Yep. BJ Bueno: Because, you know, that's what the brand's about then that, that has an emotional draw. And I think that that's kind of cool when Mark brands can do that. Now I do have to say Brand Nerds. And I'm gonna say this to, to the audience. You now, you guys, man, marketing become so boring lately with all these programmatic thinkers. Yes. Oh my God, you're killing me, bro. Like, he's like, please bring creativity into the mix. Take a risk. I was talking to, uh, Jim McCann. Uh, the, the, the, uh, he's a chairman of Worth Magazine and the CEO and founder of 1-800-Flowers, like two days ago. And he's like, what do you think is the biggest problem in market? I said, you know what it is. Nobody wants to get fired. They're all freaking out. They want to protect their job. So then, you know, you're not going to, if I came to you guys and I'm like, Hey, I invested 10 percent in Google and you're like, Oh, resort floor flat. Oh, you can harass me a little bit, but you ain't going to fire me for giving money to Google. But if I was like, guys, I started this innovative radio campaign that's out of the grid, but our sales are down 10%, maybe I lose my job. So then I get that fear, that fear, but man, so boring. So boring. Like your stuff was like, pure that had that energy of since you didn't have that ability to measure every helicopter marketer That have helicopter parenting, you know, oh look they took a turn. They took a click. Here we go. Oh, no Okay, it's like well maybe they got we don't know what's happened So I think that that ecosystem of trying to get that perfect prediction. I I know that it will happen Maybe a perfect prediction of the market, but I still believe that the creativity of like, how do you talk to you on content is something that's it's not integrated fully yet into the modern marketers that are popping. LT: Hey, DC. I think BJ's on to something huge here and the where, what I'm going to build on what he said, which I completely agree with is we talk about BJ a lot with marketing. It's the art and science of marketing. And what's happened is there's been an over rotation to the science part. To the programmatic, to the data. Again, Brand Nerds, we are not suggesting don't listen to the data. We're not, love Michael Wilburn on PTI, analytics, no. We, we think metrics and analytics are important. But, here's the big but. It cannot be everything and there's times where you really have to go to the art part and that's what BJ is really saying there's, there's just a lack of taking a risk taking innovation to really say, Hey, I don't know what the data says, but my intuition says that we've got to be more storytelling and we've got to be more emotive and we've got to do things that isn't just what the cookie cutter and the data tells us. Let's get creative and let's really connect in that emotive, real emotional connection way. And that's rarely done from the science. BJ Bueno: Right? 100 percent DC: Well said LT. Before we go to the next question, uh, Brand Nerds, BJ is dropping some serious jewels on your head as Larry's point about over rotation on the science side. Mark my words. Five years from now, AI will be able to do most of the marketing stuff on the science side of the ledger. If you don't figure out how to do them both, well, you're not going to be needed. LT: But to that point, D, You know, many people think AI can do the creative part too, right? It can't. And that's where you and I totally agree, it cannot. That's where you've got to take it to where a machine, there's not machine learning. It's not about the AI. It's really finding the special sauce that is going to be human and intuitive. BJ Bueno: That's it. That is it. That's, that's the golden ticket right there. DC: Good one. Good one. All right. Yeah. That's good. BJ Bueno: No, no. I was going to say, no, that is true. That, uh, but I think that we'll talk more about technology a little later on. So I, I don't want to skip ahead, but the AI stuff, you know, again, we, I think it's your, you know, that's why I've been trying to share with folks the creative aspect. I'm like, that's our one advantage. Like that's what we're good at. Like we're, we, we even made the AI. We're the guys who made it. That's how crowded we are. Yes. Yes. So I feel like we got to play to our creativity. I, I, and have fun with it right now. It's like the, the library that, uh, are accessible to marketers now. Or a dream. I don't want to age myself, but I'm 43, man. When I started, it was like, you know, you, you have to like, either shoot your own photography or if you buy like the old school CVs from, uh, you know, that would come in from the stock photography teams. And it was like, each stock photography was like 10, 000. It was like, you really had to make sure you had the right picture. Otherwise it was your whole budget. So it's like, it's so lovely. Like, you know, these, you, the brand nerds today, I mean, they could go on mid journey. And you can whip up some beautiful photography. If you know how to talk to it and like, you know, photography, you know, branding. Oh my God. You know, it's, it's a, it's a one, it's an abundant time, but you have to love the craft. LT: That's great. DC: You have to love the, all right, BJ, you've had many successes, brother. You've been in this game a minute. So you've got many W's. BJ Bueno: Yeah. DC: Question seeks to not cover any of those. Yeah. This question seeks to cover the L's. What are the L's? What's the biggest F up you, you've made just you BJ, nobody else. It was your thinking and it F'd up. It was massive, but more importantly than the F up, what'd you learn from it? BJ Bueno: Man, guys, I have to be honest with you guys. I've had so many good F ups that I had a hard time picking and settling on one in particular, but, um, And I, and I debated myself on this, but I, you know, because of, of, you know, Larry yesterday, you mentioned, you know, young people coming up, they might want to know, they might want to see like, hey, this is a different path. BJ's taken a different path. He didn't go the traditional path. He went a different route. So, for me, I have plenty of, uh, what I would say, um, big losses and, uh, things that I did wrong that I could have done better. But one in particular that shines for me was, um, about 15 years ago, I would say I had a customer, um, The late great Tony Shane. Um, we became super close. Um, he followed me online. He was like, he was a brand fan of mine. I didn't even know about him as much, but Tony became really close to me. We started exchanging. He was followed my blog. He started building his business around delivering the wow factor. And, you know, he's always credit me with like, I inspired him and we were super great friends. Um, And, uh, when he sold to Amazon, you know, super excited for him, you know, all that good stuff, you know, so everything is like a dream. We're going, you know, they're going to burning man. And it started like, I don't, I don't know how to explain it. I've been thinking hard how to explain it because I'm only going to put myself under this bus here, but it began to sort of like, Um, grow and grow and the party side of it became more and more and the work became less and less and more party and less work and more party and less work. So, uh, one day Tony calls me up and said, Hey, I'm just going to buy your company out. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not, what are you gonna buy, dude? I'm just like, it's just me, I'm a consultant, that's how much here, dude. I got a couple of magic books in the bag. Like, what do you got? What do you think you think? And what it was, it's like, no, come hang out with me. Like, I want you to permanently, you know, we don't have a CMO. You can be the CMO. And I said, Hey, you know, Tony, man, with all respect, you know, you know, you and I had this situation with Robbie and I as well, it's like, no, man, I I'm an independent man. I'm humble. I don't make the money you I'm never going to do the money you're making, bro. Like, you know, like you're above me financially a billion times, but I love being independent and I'll keep me on here. So then he kept, you know, and I'll say it this way. So, so the brand nerds can learn. He threw more money and more money at me, more money at me. And, um, and I ended up on these projects where I basically didn't do nothing. I would sit there in the meeting and they were all sabotaged by his internal team. And I'm like, what the fuck's going on here? And I would bring it up. But nothing would happen. It would go on these emails, exchange with Tony and nothing would happen. There was a part of me that was just like bugging me, but I would keep coming and partying and celebrating and partying and celebrating. And then it escalated to a point that the, um, the amount of partying, let's put it that way, Now, even what's concerning to me and I'm Dominican. So it was like starting to get to a place where I'm like, we're going to hurt ourselves here. Like, this is crazy. Like what is happening? And I didn't listen to that voice that was telling me, this is not good for business. And I kept thinking like, yeah, but he has more money than me and all this stuff is like that. And I've been in those situations before with other folks. I'm not, you know, it's like I came from the bottom, so it's not like my first time, but I was sort of in this, like. I didn't want to upset him and I could see he was depressed and sad and upset and instead of knowing my normal BJ move throwing a tantrum and getting fucking mad and being like this is bullshit and all of you guys are full of shit I stayed quiet and it kept getting worse and worse and then covid hit and it got super worse and then one night I literally wake up in the morning and I see the news that he's hurt himself that he's now passed You And it just crushed me because there were so many things as a consultant that I was always there, like, like wishing I had a stronger way. Now, some of his team has told me that he was bent on that path and there was nothing I could have done, you know, his buddy tried, but there was something in me that always felt like I just didn't throw down. And I always. Wanted to keep him as my friend and as my fan. And that bugs me that I felt like I should have broken that bond and be like, look, dude, no matter what, dude, I'm a dad. And as a dad looking you as my son, if you were my son, I would be worried for you. And there was something there that I didn't click. And then when it clicked, it was too late. So then I swore to myself that if that ever happened, I would become annoying, parent like, and not allow for a situation to go to a place where I know that, not about my values, I don't want to ruin anybody's good time, but if the good time is being had at the mental health or expense of another person, I don't want to be a part of that. And I felt that Tony was the opposite of the cult leader. Normally, the cult leader takes advantage of the cult. This time it was around the other way. The cult was taking advantage of the leader. And I felt like everybody there was just taking and taking. And even though he looked depressed and sad, nobody wanted the party to stop. And I know that it's been in every fucking rock and roll movie out there. But it's just like, I'm like, what the fuck? And I just cook it just, and we were really close and, and, and everything I tried felt to come short, but I also felt that I didn't put that. You know, like that snap who, man, like the yo bro, not, this is not, no joke. Like, you know, funny, but now it's not funny because now this is going to happen and I saw it coming and I feel like, again, if I had to teach other branders and marketers, if you're, if you're built on principle. Which I thought I was, then you have to sometimes, um, question difficult board states, if the board state is difficult, then maybe that's a sign that it's difficult, that it's, that you should maybe, uh, contemplate the scenario and not, uh, push forward in that sense. So again, it's a high level consulting lesson. I've been consulting CEOs and high level CMOs my whole life. And I had a really good record until that point. And that to me was like, I really felt like I lost that ship. And I was like, fuck, I know it wasn't like a hundred percent my responsibility, but he did admire me a lot. And, um, I just didn't use my influence because I didn't want to fuck up our friendship. So I wasn't like willing to say. That he was completely wrong when I knew that there was parts of what he was doing that were like a hundred percent off. I would email, I would say little things here and there, but it wasn't like that, you know, putting that foot down. LT: Right. BJ Bueno: Which I can imagine, because I don't want to get fired. Like saying, I have the empathy for me, I had the same thing, I didn't want to get fired, but maybe that's why I mention it. Sometimes maybe you do want to get fired, maybe it's okay. Maybe you land somewhere better or with more character or more strength to your conviction. Anyway, that's my, my question. LT: Thanks for sharing that. That's deep, BJ, because I know that that's something that, you know, is, uh, is really difficult to share and what you went through, and I think in a way you felt complicit. I think that's what you're saying, that, you know, you, you sort of just kept, stayed alone for the ride, and you look back, and again, the learning for Brand Nerds, if you see something that's out there that you, that ain't right. Something to do about it, right? Um, you want to have anything to add or should we head to the next question? BJ Bueno: Just quick. Sorry to go super deep on you guys. LT: Oh, that's it's great. I love that. BJ Bueno: I figured you guys have heard of, of the spreadsheet mishaps, the overbuying media and all that stuff. DC: Yeah. We, we, we have, uh, Brand Nerds just quickly here, uh, Tony Shea, rest in power, uh, founder and CEO of Zappos. Zappos was purchased by Amazon, I think it was the first major pur purchase of Amazon. So even Jeff Bezos admired what Tony Shea, uh, built. So. BJ Bueno: Well, it's funny you're saying that because first, uh, uh, Amazon tried to copy him and destroy his business and then they couldn't. So then they gave up and they just bought him. And actually I have that, I have that first day, uh, recorded because Tony and I were together when he got the first contract. So I do have a many happy memories of Tony and I, we invented, uh, uh, you know, we worked on stuff like Adaptive where we put in people with disabilities on our spots, you know, like we had a lot of wonderful things, but because of all that wonderful things, I wish I would have been more strong minded and been like, Hey, man, let's not go that way. Let's go a different route. DC: All right, LT. LT: All right, so next question. So, uh, when you're thinking about tech, tech and marketing, BJ, right? Can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you could go to areas they should be leery or simply avoid. BJ Bueno: Cool, no, this is super, super easy in my book. I think tech is awesome. I've been in marketing for a long time. I started in, in the com side of things. Um, I love the AI. I think we all know this Brand Nerds garbage in garbage out. Right? So if you're going to work with AI, do a little background research on what it is that you want to get out of it. Be specific on your questions, you know, all the stuff that everybody knows about, you know, know your prompting connected things. But I think it's awesome. I mean, imagine I used to let's say I would run a discovery meeting. And we got all the keywords for our customer. So let's say we were getting like, let's say, what is the most important attributes for our brand lovers? Let's say something that you guys love and we love as well. So you imagine now you have a room of 50 people all give you their words. Back in the day, we would have to bring it into SPSS or Excel, and then queue every word, run the analytics. Now, ChatGPT, in a couple minutes, we can say, hey, organize these words by themes. Give me the percentages, which words are the top. So, if you have good, uh, What I would call systems and methodology. It's awesome. I feel like as a consultant, I got a little bad belt. Now I feel like Batman more than ever. I'm like, wait, I got one of those right here. You'll throw out a whole net out of my back pocket. I'm sure you guys are the same. Yeah. Like, you know, it's crazy. I mean, it's amazing. I think again, It goes back to me. If you're a Brand Nerd, get into your subject, get into the things that you learn and use the tools and the technology that comes with it for a long time. I love that. SPSS, I still run SPSS for more complicated projects. Uh, you know, that's a data analytical package to crunch data. Um, I'm also comfortable using something as simple as mail, you know, like, uh, like a survey, you know, like a MailChimp or something like that, you know, that, that just runs a quick survey for you. So it's like, you know, just be familiar with all the tools and then be creative. I think. This is where creativity does come in as well. If you're preparing a survey or if you're working on data, using AI technology. Um, lastly, I would say I like using the AI, AI, almost like Ray Dalio as a companion, uh, intelligence. And so, so I'll play around with, and this is kind of fun to do since we're in the nerd space, I'll say, okay, uh, ChatGPT, create a panel of experts I want a statistician. I want a branding expert I want an advertising marketer and I want to see CMO and I want you to discuss the following problem And whatever problem that would be like, my client wants to get more lease ups for his building. So then the computer will break itself into all these different databases and then they will all create their response for you. So then it's like, Oh, database marketer believes that you should do this. Your CMO believes that you should do that. Your copywriter thinks this. So now you have your own little panel of brand experts, as we're all Brand Nerds here. And then you could be a real nerd if you want to get into being a nerd. And then it's like, Hey, now you have these insights. Now, I wouldn't say that that substitutes having real discussions with those people, but it's a great way that if you're a consultant, or if you're needing to simulate a department in order to get insights going for yourself, like more than just thinking inside of your own silo, I love using it for that because it'll bring me, you Ideas from all the perspectives that you tell it and you can have your own mini mini board or brainstormer. So I love the technology. I think it's super cool. I agree with with DC and five years. It's going to be super more automated. So a lot of it is going to be about us learning to collaborate with it and then actualize some of the processes. LT: Love that. Love that. I've got nothing to add to that. I think that's great advice. Yeah. Do you want to go to the next question? DC: Final question, BJ. Thanks, LT. What are you most proud of, brother? BJ Bueno: Oh, man. Thank you. I mean, obviously my family, the kids, stuff like that. Uh, from a marketing business side, having helped so many entrepreneurs, like the American Dream, I'm, I'm an immigrant. I love that anyone can start a business. And I've, even though I've worked for most, like a huge, a lot of huge brands and a lot of big businesses, I really feel like that's why I write my blog. It's just to have, you know, to help everyday businesses. I've helped like the alliance of women, uh, associations here in Orlando, uh, UNICEF, so, you know, just helping people find, you know, get their dream, you know, get their dream, and a lot of people. Business is a great way to make money and also, you know, have a career belong. So I've had a lot of small businesses. I mean, all the big brands, of course people know, but like to me, like the 2 million plus small businesses, you know, helping just everyday people. It's awesome. Like, that's my favorite. I love just people, entrepreneuring and following their dreams. And, you know, I have friends that are magicians, musician. You know, and they're like, you know, they, they all need marketing. They need to get customers. So, you know, you always get that call where people are like, man, I just opened a little restaurant and I was thinking about how do I get what it says? Like, I love that, that our job serves like marketing, marketing is crucial. Businesses can survive without us marketers, you know, it's like, well, they can do it, but it's super hard. So once they know they have a friend that's a marketer, they're always like, Oh man, what do you think? Or what's the tagline or what's the idea? I was just. Funny. Like today, like the guys from Life is Good. Just call me today, John Jacobs, you know, he was like, Hey, we're thinking about a new tagline. It's like, it could be bigger brands or small brands, but it's that being involved and helping people. I love that. I think that's, that's really fun. DC: That's dope BJ. LT: That is. And I think D says a lot about BJ that he's proud of that, right. To, you know, uh, with all the big brands that you've worked on to, to help folks reach their American dream. Uh, D are we ready to, uh, to hit the next segment? DC: Let's do it. LT: All right. That was good, BJ. That was awesome. So, BJ, what's poppin What's poppin BJ Bueno: Well, I think Beyonce's poppin. LT: I want to set this up a little bit more, BJ. I'm going to say what's poppin and I want the Brand Nerds to know that this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion, and now I'll throw it to you. That was my bad. The floor is yours. BJ Bueno: Oh, my bad, my bad, my bad. I think Beyonce's popping. Sorry. I got excited, man. When you started saying, what's popping? I was like, it's my turn. It's like, I learned it yesterday. It's choir practice, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm first day at the rodeo. I'll probably, I'll get better. Uh, you know, uh, I like Beyonce, man, your album. I'm a big fan of music. I'm a big fan of the Beatles. I'm a big fan of Beyonce doing some covers and, you know, I just love the marketing and the fact that she broke records and, you know, I, I followed a couple of cult brands that are musicians and I just think she's up there. LT: She gets it. So I, it is, I think this is a great one, right? Um, Beyonce's foray into country music, and I have to tell you is, um, I'm gonna get personal and get, then get, you know, into it. Like, when I first heard that I love Beyonce, and then I, and then I'm thinking, but I'm not a country music fan. I'm, I'm just not. Uh, you know, I can't say I've never liked any country music, but it's not something that. speaks to me overall. So I was like, ah, Beyonce, really? And then, um, I was listening to some of the songs because we were doing a prep meeting and, uh, and this sort of came up with DJ and it occurred to me like, this is when an artist is really, truly great. You know, when they would say that someone's like, you know, take a, someone who has a great voice that they could sing the right? Like, um, if somebody who's a great artist. Especially an incredible singer like Beyonce, and she's really passionate about it because clearly there was an itch that she wanted to scratch right when when you think about for her for her to do this. This would go against. Quite honestly, her brand to go do this, if you really think about it, um, from a, from a pure sense of brand. But when you're passionate about something and really care about it, and you dive all the way in and you get passionate and it, And it comes out in the artistry and in the music. I was blown away. I listened to a few of the songs and you know, like Jolene is a country based song that's obviously had a lot of, uh, pop iterations because a lot of people have done that song and it's amazing, right? It's just amazing. You killed it. You crushed it. My, my, what I'm saying brand nerds is my perception pre was much different than post. That's where I'm going deep. It's crazy. What say you? DC: I love this. What's popping up, uh, of Beyonce, BJ and LT. Uh, and I love it because of what she is teaching me. And I think others about the, the essence of brands and that is going beneath what you are seeing, right? So she, she's not just doing a country music album just to do it. The backdrop is. She's been, uh, I think she's the most decorated Grammy artist in the history of music. She's never run, uh, album of the year. Never. Her husband Jay Z has stated, how can this be the most decorated woman in the history of, uh, of, of Grammy awards? And she not get, uh, album of the year. And she's been nominated in an album of album of the year, many times. And I think Taylor Swift, another great brand in her own right as for, I think, I think she's got four. So what I believe Beyonce is doing is she's saying, okay, so, uh, no album of the year, you all believe the general public that country music. Is for white people, you all believe that what you don't know is that black and brown people created country music. Correct. I'm going to come into it and remind you that we are the ones that created this platform that you now say, we cannot be a part of. Yep. Yeah. And I'm going to do it at a level with my stardom that will blow everybody's mind and teach you along the way. So there are layers to my brand as Beyonce layers to my brand that you can't even begin to contemplate until I show it to you. So that's one thing. And let me give you a second reason why I like this. We laud Elon Musk for his wealth, Bill Gates. For his wealth, Jeff Bezos for his wealth. These are people in, in, in, in Mark Zuckerberg for his wealth. They all are worth more than a hundred billion dollars. Okay. Um, my man, uh, Bernard, I think are now who, uh, owns a LVMH. I mean, these are like 100. They are more than Elon and, um, and the brother, uh, Bernard 200. Maybe 200, 200 billion, 200, 200 billion, 200 billion. Right. Okay. They're not the first to be that, uh, wealthy. Like we go back a little bit and we say, Oh, Rockefeller. No, no, no, no. Mansa Musa. Mansa Musa ruler of the Mali empire in the 1300s, richer than all of them in today's dollars combined. So great brands teach you something. They touch you and they teach you something. That's why I'm feeling what Beyonce's doing. LT: I agree. It's great. I'm so glad BJ brought this up because I was resistant. I'm going to show my, I was resistant to it. Like, I love Beyonce and I'm not country music. And then because of her artistry and her talent, she's taken it to a level where it's like, it's really good. And I really enjoyed listening. So BJ, thanks for bringing this up both free as well as on the show, because it's an awesome topic and I'm glad we've covered it. DC: Me too. Absolutely. Me too lt anything else about it before we bring it home. LT: I think we should bring it home a man BJ This has been so much fun. DC: It has LT: Our our shows the best shows just go they fly by and it felt it felt like we've been doing this for 10 minutes Um, so we're gonna learnings now and I and I kick it off Um, there's a plethora of them. I'm going to keep it to Jeff would be happy to. I'm going to keep it to five. DC: Oh, definitely. Very happy. LT: Very happy. Right. So, um, the first one is D. C. said this early. Um, and I want to repeat it. Um, that brand nerds. We are all students. Always be a student, always be a lifelong learner, no matter how old you are. Number two, balance. This came up in the, in the context of the, uh, of the, of the Kobe, uh, brand conversation. Take time to be a real person, enjoying all facets of life. That's number two. Number three, BJ mentioned, he was talking about brand discovery. And I would posit this, he was suggesting to do this in for brand discovery, but I would say you need to think about doing this at all facets of your life. Pretend to be an alien and ask any question and don't worry about sounding dumb. Because if you ask questions from a, from a place of, uh, of really true curiosity, if somebody thinks you're dumb, it's not on you. It's them. So that's number three. Number four, BJ said companies have stories. That's a quote for brand nerds. When you are in position to manage a brand, how can you bring the brand story to life with your target audience? In the emotive way that Coca Cola did for BJ when he was six. How can you do that? Okay. And then the last one is, um, uh, number five. I love what BJ was talking about when we brought up technology. Think of using chat GPT like BJ said, to get different perspectives, like he said, well, I, I, I, I feed it in as what would a statistician view this app? What would a CMO, etc. That's as he's as, as BJ said, you're using chat GPT to actually be your own board of directors, so to speak, where you're getting different perspectives on things. I love that approach. Those are my five. DC: Great Larry BJ. At this part of the show, what I attempt to do for myself and for the Brand Nerds is describe the human before me above their accomplishments, accolades, rewards. Who, who is this human? And what are they bringing to the planet that only they can bring? So I attempt, I attempt to do that At the end of our show. This one's a little different, uh, for me, BJ, uh, because I don't only know BJ Bueno, the person, I know BJ Bueno's soul. You don't just know me, the person, you know my soul. Uh, and you learn that when you are in close proximity with someone spending large amounts of time. Asking very intimate questions to get to know the person and you, BJ, have a remarkable gift of asking those types of questions. So with that, here is what I've taken away from this conversation with you. Started with LT's opening and him going over your love of magic. You love magic, BJ. From the time you were a kid, a little shorty. Yeah. So now you love it. Something, something called you. I would dare to say you did not choose magic BJ magic chose you. And that is what started your foray into marketing. So now let me go to our five questions section. When we talked about like your first branding experience, you talked, you said Coke and collecting the caps. So you had caps, then you went yo yos. Then you went to the plant. Then you get this presentation from the beautiful woman in Bolivia and the screen comes down and the lights darken. And as you were describing that experience, BJ, and LT said this, it was as if LT and I were sitting next to you as little boys watching this woman tell her brand story. So that was the first thing that happened that came from your, your love of Coca Cola. And there was a theater to that. Second thing is when we asked the question, who's had the most influence in your career? Normally BJ, the answers we get is my boss here are my, my, uh, coworker there. And we get that. No, no. You went to authors of books that talked about psychology. These are the folks that have had the most influence. In your life. And then you talked about this speaking to the unconscious. That's deep brother. That that's deep. There's a psychology to this that you have said, ah, if you feel a need, we humans have knees. If you feel a need there, you're great marketing. You throw a product out there and just say, buy my product. Not so much. So that had me thinking, what is it? BJ. This wonderful marketer that is an actual magician, but also has this thing of humanity. And here's what I think you are, BJ. I think you are the Muhammad Ali of magic and marketing. Oh, I'll leave marketing. Now I want to keep going, brother, but give me, where's that coming from? Cause I want to tell you why I believe you're that go ahead. BJ Bueno: That's so kind. No, it's just kind. Very, it's very sweet, very kind. DC: You, you are this, uh, BJ, I'm going to tell a story. So, um, I've spent quality time with, uh, Muhammad Ali, very close time with Muhammad Ali. One of the things that he, he does, uh, BJ, you may know this, or he did rest in power is when, when I was with him. And we'd be walking with a few other folks. He, his wife, Lonnie, his manager, Bernie Yuman say, say, say, say, say, Bernie Yuman. We'd be walking. Um, um, his photographer, uh, Leonard, uh, we, we would be walking and then all of a sudden BJ and LT hundreds of people would converge. So, uh, Mohammed would do a magic trick for them. He do a magic trick right there, right there in front of him. Like we might be on the street in New York, he's doing a magic trick. And then he gets, when he gets done with the magic trick, every single time he did a trick, BJ, he revealed how he did the trick. He would never just do the trick and leave. He would do the trick and say, this is how I did the trick. He took away the mystery of the, of the trick because he wanted them to know. Second story that connects Muhammad Ali and you I've been, I've been blessed. I've worked with so many different celebrities and entertainers and powerful people in the world. Um, I've been blessed. I have never, ever requested an autograph ever from any of them, except one. I requested an autograph from one person because I wanted to give that autograph as a gift to a second person. The autograph I requested was from Muhammad Ali on a pair of boxing gloves. The person to whom I gifted that was Kobe Bean Bryant. That's it. That's it. So next thing let's go into magic, brother. Why are you the Muhammad Ali of magic and marketing? Let's break down this word magic as it relates to you. BJ M what does the letter M stand for BJ? You walk with Kings, but you don't lose the common touch M for you. BJ means majestic, majestic. The a apprentice. You're an apprentice forever. An apprentice. You are always seeking to learn. Always seeking to figure out, always seeking to make your skills better as an apprentice. Because you are such an exceptional apprentice, you are an expert. But you're first an apprentice. The G, grateful. You do not in any way shy away from your immigrant beginnings. In no way. There are many, many kids who have faced what you faced. I know some of them, they don't turn out like you, BJ, they don't turn out like you. So you have a gratefulness to your journey because you know your journey was hard and different, yet you still got a chance to live the life that you are living and you have brought a child into this, the I, intrepid, intrepid. It means bold and brave. You are incredibly brave, BJ, incredibly brave. When you are looking at odds that are insurmountable, you are undaunted. Yes. When you were in the room with, uh, with, with, with me, you were like, oh yeah, man, I, I, I, this dude is fantastic. But you were not like unbrave. You were like, no, no, I got something to do here. You were I'm brave enough to believe I could be sitting in a room as a 20 something year old across the desk from a, at that point, I think it was seven or eight time NBA coach champion in Phil, uh, Phil Jackson and from a NBA owner. Not, I mean, at that time, uh, it, it, it. Cool. As a 20 something, you were a fucking kid brain. And then finally see, and I mean this respectfully childlike. You have a, you have the wonderment of a child about so many things. And this is why magic appealed to you. This is why it captured you. It was a wonderment. This is why the story of Coke capture you. It was a wonderment. This is why when you and I both came up to get, came up with together, along with Colby and with Pelinka, that the Lakers as a brand was a beacon of hope because there's a wonderment to that BJ. That is why you, brother, are the Muhammad Ali of magic and marketing. BJ Bueno: Wow. That is amazing. . This is part of the podcast. That's crazy, dude. Wow. Unbelievable. That is unbelievable. Wow. That's unbelievable. LT: That's Wonder dj. It's all Truth. And DC weaves this together, um, and wow. And it, and it's special. And, uh, and I know, uh, it's, it's hit you in a good, really good way. So, uh, I can tell by your reaction. BJ Bueno: Yeah, that's, uh, absolutely. That's really cool. LT: Hey, before we sign off, we've had an incredible conversation. Is there anything that you want to, uh, posit about the conversation or anything else, uh, as it relates to it before we, uh, BJ Bueno: Oh, man, you guys are amazing. You know, uh, I like the getting comfy. That was awesome. And, you know, I hope the listeners got a lot of good stuff. I was trying to bring me. Ideas that might be relevant, but also things that they might face up the road as they, uh, encounter their own challenges and, and, and pathways. But this was amazing. You guys are awesome. I appreciate the opportunity for being on. Wow. LT: Well, you, you were a special guest, my friend. Uh, you were incredible. We're only as good as our guests and, uh, you are incredible. Um, so with that, unfortunately, brand new, DC: can I just say something? Oh, sure. I know you're about to go to close. Uh, uh, I'm over here tearing up, um, because, um, I'm, I'm just thankful brother, that, uh, uh, God has blessed me with the opportunity to, to get to know you And to call you my friend, man, I, I'm just, uh, thank you brother for being you. Uh, you may or may not know this, but BJ, you being you helps the rest of us be who we are because we see your authenticity and you being who you are doing things the way you do things, it reminds us that, Oh yeah, we, we really can be who we truly are. LT: Yep. DC: And still have the lives that we want. So BJ Bueno: our biggest gift is to be ourselves. Oh man. Thank you guys. That's the privilege of a lifetime is to be who you guys are. Have you guys, you know, DC, I mean, I look up to you the day I met you and. I always thought, you know, it's like, so for me, this is, you know, a wonderful blessing that we are in each other's presence and also what you guys are doing. I mean, like yesterday, like when, uh, Larry was explaining to me that it's also about helping people coming on their journey. Because that was a little bit like, biggest mistakes. I'm like, well, I had a lot of mistakes. So I was really, but I wanted to really think about that, because I wanted to talk about something that had impact, like something that really I struggled with as a mistake. In the, in the pursuit of, of that, of trying to all of us be authentic. And you know, life is short. Unfortunately, it ends. Um, you know, both our two great friends, Kobe and Tony, both passed suddenly and out of the thing. So I think there's this also for us, a reflection of the blessing that we're still here and not, you know, and trying to help others not to squander away their opportunities because there's other young men out there that are basketball stars that are going to rise through the ranks. That will be, they're going to go through the same pitfalls that Kobe went through. And it's like, if you can learn ahead. You'll save yourself some grief. So, you know, you guys are a gift to the world, so it's, uh, such a blessing. LT: Thanks BJ. That's awesome. And dare I say young ladies now, young ladies. Yes. Oh yeah. Not to be said too, right? DC: Hey, LT, I'm gonna say this one other thing and then we'll go to the close. Um, I noticed this at the beginning, um, but I've not, I'm not said anything about it until now. So, BJ, what magic is to you? Hip hop is to me. That's why I wrote BJ Bueno: this for you, buddy. I know. DC: And so I just want to acknowledge that usually in my life, when the most special things happen, hip hop is around. And for the brand nerds that are listening to this, but not seeing this, BJ has on a t shirt that says hip hop b boy on it right there. Yep. Hip hop b boy. And when I saw that, I said to him, I said to myself, BJ knows how much I love hip hop. BJ Bueno: Forever USA, that was a forever stamp. I put it on a stamp with the four phases of hip hop, DJing, MCing. Breakdancing and all coming out of the Harlem and graffiti. Correct. And there's four stamps that go together and this is one of the shirts, but this is the, I thought, you know, we'll think about you. DC: Yes, sir. Thank you, brother. Thank you. All right. LT. LT: Well, that was even better cap for you guys. Thanks so much for that. That's awesome. Uh, we're going to the real close now, Jade. So thanks for listening to Brands, Beats and Bytes. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, and Larry Taman and Hailey Cobbin and Jade Tate and Tom DiOro. That is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share. And for those on Apple podcasts, if you are so inclined, we'd love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.