Latest / Built by People / The Realities For Women Building a Business: Leadership, Growth, and Time Freedom
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hello and welcome to Built by People, a DFL podcast that delivers some topical industry insight with a hint of fun, chatting about all things highway infrastructure in the built environment. I'm your host, Richard Jackson. Let's get straight into it. I'd be interested to get your views on ⁓ the gender disparity in marketing. Obviously, I'm not ashamed to talk about it. I want to make more of an effort to talk about it in future ⁓ podcasts in the... highway electrical sector, it's a very male dominated environment. What's it like in the marketing sector? I'm going to say it, might be wrong for saying it. It appears to be very female orientated in terms of the interactions we've had when I've come to see you in agency and stuff like that. But as a whole, what's your sector like for that? speaker-1: So a lot of people on the ground, the employees per se, tend to be females. It's a creative industry. It's, you know, a lot ⁓ of females are present, a lot of males as well, but it's at the top of those agencies who's controlling that element of it, if that makes sense. there are a lot of female founded agencies and they're... You know, they're amazing and they do amazing things. I haven't actually met a lot of them. So that's probably what I should be doing. But the people that the, lot of the agencies that I do know are male founded and male led. So it, it's not just about the marketing industry itself. It's about who you're also dealing with because obviously we're dealing with other businesses that are outside of the sector. And a lot of those tend to be male led as well. Obviously there is a, is still a gender gap in terms of, and I'll preface this with, you know, it's not anti-men, it's not, don't hate men at all, but there is a gender gap between people at the top in senior leadership teams. It is still very male dominated. So it's interesting to try and navigate that now as a female founder and to sit down in boardrooms and have conversations, not from an account manager level where it's all fun and games and quite nice. And if anything gets serious, then. Just goes up and up, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly. See you later, it's off. It's now, okay, I need to have those conversations and seeing how people react to you when you have those conversations. And I do think that there is some sort of a bias, whether that be, you know, normally unconscious bias, we've, we're all programmed in a way. I don't think anyone does it out of just being mean. But an unconscious bias. whether that's related to me being a woman I don't know, it could be because I am younger, ⁓ could be a variety of things, they might just not like me. speaker-0: sure it's not that, but it is a really tricky one and I struggle with it because I'd like to think I'm quite well-rounded. don't see like gender-age stuff like that. We're just people trying to get a job done. I do like to think maybe that's because I'm a bit younger than the stereotypical type. And I don't mean that in a rude way. I mean that from a generational perspective. think we saw, you historically men worked women stayed at home and that's completely changed now and it's great. think some of the people look at this relationship where we're working. I actually really enjoy getting different perspective and opinions and stuff like that. And I think, I think sometimes it can be a bit egotistical and arrogant with like met all men in a room trying to prove something. I often chuckle because I feel like you get more done when you're working with. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: to say that, but I do think there's more of rounded opinion in terms of how we're doing things and stuff like that. speaker-1: It is a bit less of an echo chamber a lot of the times. And that, once again, that's not just necessarily to a gender. could be, you know, other demographic things. But if you do look at boardrooms of men of a certain age, know, white middle-class males, ⁓ they're done. And once again, this is so stereotyping. So it's actually terrible for me. there tends to be a certain way that they think and feel, especially to do with marketing. And I think that's where the bias comes in is like, for me, I get a lot of pushback from that generation because they don't necessarily get it. if everyone's saying that and no one's putting their hand up and going, ⁓ I actually, think we should experiment with this. Then they're just going to continue doing the same thing forever. And obviously some people have really successful businesses and that's great, but just mix it up a little bit. chuckle woman in there. speaker-0: I think two elements to that, I think are great, is like what we're talking about there, and we're linking it back to like LinkedIn and stuff like that. If you do what everyone else does or do what is safe or what's always the same, you're not exactly that. And I do think, I'm not just saying it, but I think when I work with females, like we've got great team. ⁓ speaker-1: We'll get the same result. speaker-0: within the business of females and they present an idea to me and I'm like, yeah, I would have never thought of that. I'm a man, I don't think like that. It's really powerful to have that insight and input. one thing, the biggest thing I struggle with is statistically across the world, you're a 50-50 nation. And I sit there and go, but DFL is not 50-50. But then you could go, this is... engineering at its finest. You can look at the numbers and go, but there's less women in engineering. So what is right, what is wrong? And all we can do is, you know, to keep doing our best and employ the best candidates and stuff. speaker-1: You can never do things to tick a quota is the kind of the first rule of thumb, think from, I'm not like, I'm still learning with that. And obviously I haven't hired anyone specifically yet, but in just in terms of from my own point of view, it's like, don't just check a box because like it's a lot of the time it's see-through as well. If your industry is like say 90 % men and you're getting in these women because you're like, ⁓ well that's the only woman that applied. I think it's more to do with opportunity. So giving everyone the same opportunity, no matter where you're from, where like your gender, your whatever, giving everyone the same opportunity. And obviously the biggest thing is there's still a massive gender pay gap, which we won't go into, but making sure that everyone is paid for their job and not because. speaker-0: But again, that amazes me. It's crazy, isn't But it is there. know, statistically it's there. It's not a subjective thing. say, ⁓ it's not really there. is. speaker-1: It is, and it is wild. I speak to my friends and some of them are in unbelievable jobs, but their boyfriends are in the same jobs and they're getting a lot more money. Big corporations also have to show their gender pay gaps and they are getting smaller, ⁓ but it shows that they're still there. if anyone is like, ⁓ it doesn't exist, just go and have a at those. try, you are a founder, just try not to do it in your own company. speaker-0: No, that's it. Should we move on? Really light and fun stuff, I to What do you actually do versus what people think a founder does? Eye paddle. speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. So think you're battle. Yeah. Networking and play battle. I'm most of the time, 99 % of the time, I'm behind my laptop. You'll find me literally in at my home, in the office, 99 % of the time, not doing anything fun. And on that laptop, I'm firefighting, responding to emails most of the day, doing the actual work. Cause I'm obviously in that phase of my business. And then a lot of the time I, well, I've read Off shot that whatever the delegated that more. ⁓ I've always had an accountant, but I've stepped it up a little bit now with a new accountant and they're doing more for me. So it means that I'm not, not going to be on zero as much. ⁓ but for a long time, I was on zero all the time, making sure that everything was reconciled, making sure that the invoices were going out on time, seeing the difference between who's paying on time, who's not, who's more profitable, how much time am I spending versus how much are they paying all of that sort of business. And that's obviously in the long-term how everything's going to grow. But it just seems like it's not a waste of time being on there, but you know, it is crazy how much you do need to spend on the back of the business for there to be any sort of growth. speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's one of the things I try and speak to our guys about. And I can't imagine how hard it must be for you as a founder, like trying to do everything, but only do what you can do. Do what you're best at. Yes. Particularly, it's easier when we're a larger business, can we can bring the specialist in to certain elements of it. in the early days, I can imagine it's like everywhere doing everything. speaker-1: I am everyone, all at once. Obviously freelancers do help me, ideally it's just me. speaker-0: And in terms of the leadership of that, where you're working with people and so forth, what does no one tell you about leadership? What was one thing that you could say pass on in terms of leadership? What you've learned on the hop that you wish someone had said, don't forget this. speaker-1: I I was fortunate enough to have learned this relatively early because I was a manager in my last agency. So I sort of like got a little bit of a gist of it there and it's sort of grown now where you have to treat everyone as an individual. And some people might roll their eyes at that, but you will get such better results when you actually learn how that someone likes to be communicated with, how they respond best. Their likes, their dislikes, obviously surface level, don't need to whatever, but like you don't need to go too deep, but just try and find out what makes them happy in terms of being spoken to. I have freelancers that like a voice note on WhatsApp. I have freelancers that need a 10 page essay sent to them via email so that they can store it in a perfect file that they can get to later. But if I swap them around, the work won't be the same, it won't be done the same. So if I just learn that, can make that happen, then I get the best results from it. speaker-0: Yeah. And I think that's probably one of the things as an SME and yourself that is really valuable that I think gives us not a unique power against large multi-corp. They have to do it in a certain way. And I'm not saying this in a bad way, they have to treat everyone equal. And I'm not saying we don't treat everyone equal, but we treat people differently because different people respond to different things. speaker-1: Yeah. But you've got hundreds of people or thousands of people, how are you meant to do that? But that's where, you know, teams of people come in and that's where you need a good leader within businesses, but a leader that's actually going to lead and not just let you crack on and hope for the best. speaker-0: And then just picking up on something you said there about a voice note. Yes. They've come into business, haven't they? So question for you, what is your preferred method of communication? speaker-1: So that's changed literally probably over the past month, I would say, because I've now working with more people that prefer to use WhatsApp. But before my WhatsApp was closed off, I hated using it for business use. However, ⁓ it's a platform that I've always got on me. So it is easy. If I've got my phone on me, I can send a WhatsApp without it being really professional, without my email signature having to be correctly on there. Whereas if I email off my phone, it glitches and sends through like a weird email signature or you can just tell, can't you? So now it is WhatsApp, which I never thought I would say, but here we are. speaker-0: No, think what's that is, it's amazing how different people react in different ways and in different methods of communication. And it's hard because I try not to respond to anyone on email on my phone. you see, however, sometimes you need to do. speaker-1: If it's internal, think it's easy. Or if it's time sensitive and you're out and about, then absolutely fine. But also sometimes I'll read an email, if I've got their number and I know that I'm able to WhatsApp them and they're anti that, I'll just chuck them a thing and be like, senior email, love it. Great. But also sensitivities on time. I think that it's about respecting other people's time. If you send me a WhatsApp at 10 PM, but don't acknowledge that it's 10 PM. It might annoy me a little bit, but if you go, ⁓ sorry, it's late or whatever, like, but just thinking of it. So I wanted to send it for it. It's like, yeah, great. That's fine. Because that's when you're thinking of it. And I know that I can then do the same, you know, in your school. You do it. You do it. That's why I said it. Otherwise I would have left that out. speaker-0: I'm going to read my WhatsApps back. Have I sent a message really late and not apologize? speaker-1: wasn't even that late and you said, sorry, it's late. I think it was like 7 p.m. or something. You're like, it's late. But if it's a Sunday, don't bother someone on a Sunday. It's a Sunday. Unless it's time sensitive for the Monday. speaker-0: I hope you're enjoying the show so far. Our goal with this is to build something for the whole industry to feel a part of. So please don't forget to like and subscribe and drop a comment with any thoughts or suggestions for future episodes. Let's talk about you and the business. Where do you want to take your business? speaker-1: think that that's changed a lot, even over the years, few years that I've been doing it. And I think it will continue to change. But at the moment, the current iteration is I want to build out my freelancer network. So I've currently got some really great freelancers that I work with. But I want to build that out and have a really specialist team that I know that I can rely on to go to with projects. And the reason why some people may look at that and think, ⁓ well, you don't want to hire these people and bring them in and give them the benefits. And it's not that if someone turned around and said, ⁓ I'd actually prefer to work for you. Absolutely come in. But most people nowadays want flexibility, want to work for themselves. So why not offer that and, and, and pay them what they're worth as well. ⁓ with their hourly rate. So have that bank of freelancers. And then I want to build the best account management or client relationship. team that you've ever seen. And I think that that's one thing that I've always excelled at is the account management side of things. And I think that I can train up a team to be really good account managers. And those will be the middle men between the freelancers and the, and the businesses that we work with. Because in future, I need to be able to take myself out of the business at any given time. If someone turns around and wants to buy the business and it's just me, then I'll be in trouble. But also I might want to. buy a business, I might want to merge with another business. The sort of options are still endless and it's exciting, but that's kind of where I'm at at the moment. think that kind of makes the most sense. speaker-0: That's a really interesting point you picked up on there about not you being the whole business, because that's hugely important in terms of any form of growth. I've seen it a few times and we create a position for ourselves where we kind of become the face of the business. We talk about a personal brand and everything that goes with it. But then you have to be able to take yourself out of the business. Otherwise you just live and breathe the business. speaker-1: Then you are the business. There's no separation. speaker-0: So that is a real tricky one, I see that because you build something and you feel it's really valuable, but you misalign that value on the business with actually the person. Yes. It comes from the person. So to evolve that and develop that is... speaker-1: I've seen really good examples of that as well with previous businesses I've worked out where the founder will literally sit out of everything. And I think at the time I was like, what are you doing? Like, this is your business. Do you not care? And it's not because they didn't care. It's because at any given moment, if the opportunity was there, if they'd been doing it for 10, 20 years, whatever, they might want to get out. And if they're the business, then they can't do that. So that's why we were doing all the legwork, but it makes perfect sense. speaker-0: And from the flip side of that for me, not that I'm leaving the business anytime soon. Spoiler. I sit there and I try and facilitate these guys stepping forward and stepping in and taking on them roles. But I do worry that they think, Richie's pulling a leg, Richie isn't making an effort and stuff like that. And it's never that. You want to give them the opportunity to flourish. Again, me and Andy talk about all the time, the hardest thing is not working in the business, it's working on the business so you can help it grow and stuff like that. speaker-1: grow them as well. But that's also my favourite thing is ever since I was younger, I've always wanted to build businesses. I've always wanted to work on the business, not in the business. You can ask any of my employers, I've got a few, that I was always that, that I always had side hustles. Like whatever it was, I was always doing something else. When I was younger, I owned a PT business and that was literally straight out of school and it was really successful. And then I just decided that that's not what I wanted to do anymore in it. And it went, but. It's, it's just, I'm, my dad is a entrepreneur. My mom works for ourselves. So I've only ever seen people that have got this time freedom. And I speak about it all the time that that is my goal for myself, not the business, but from my personal self. I don't care about money. Like I'm in a very fortunate position where I grew up in a, you know, I'm from a good area. Like my parents aren't poor. Like I've been given a lot of benefits in my life that I do have a full back that. I don't need millions and millions of pounds, but time freedom, because we're not, this is super deep, but we're not on this earth forever. Our families aren't on this earth forever. Why would I want to just work for a million hours a day? Like I want time freedom. So that's kind of my personal, not that you asked, but that's my personal gut. speaker-0: So if we move on, we were talking about the business and what you're looking to achieve. We talked a little bit about side hustles and stuff like that. What do you think the next big thing is? Where would you like to take the business next? Either a completely random side hustle or is there anything particularly in marketing that you'd like to take the business? Yeah. speaker-1: I'm glad that you've asked that actually because this it's all relevant to sort of what we're doing now. And I started a podcast with another client of mine a while ago, but it was a different sort of setup. ⁓ And it's been doing really well. And it, like I say, it's not been launched in the traditional sense. It's more like on YouTube and then we clip it for LinkedIn, but it's very corporate. It's very corporate podcasts. ⁓ But I was like, ⁓ this is fun. This is different. And I didn't know if I had the capabilities of it. So it was kind of a bit of a test and it's working. So that's great. And then when you got in touch, I was like, okay, this is another chance, but actually to do it right, if you will, and build something. And I know you're someone that you just want to do it and then it will get better and better. But like, as long as it doesn't look rubbish, you're willing to give it a go, right? So it's kind of like, okay, let's start in this little makeshift situation that we've got. Ideally, I think that I've looked into before coming here and filming this with you and with other clients, I've looked into renting space for podcasting. I've got the prices from it, but the stuff, half of the stuff that they're offering is what I already do. So it's like the filming and then editing it and clipping it up. Also, spoiler alert, I do the podcast. don't think we've actually mentioned that. ⁓ It's having an actual space where it's fully set up. People can come in, you can bring your, know, if you've got stickers, if you've got a banner that you want to put up, if you've got a neon light, you can put it as a background. But having a space that's fully set up, we've got all the equipment, all the cameras, et cetera, microphones, good recording system. And just having it where people can come in if they want to podcast, it's not going to be wildly expensive. I haven't even, it sounds like I've thought this through, but I haven't, but it's kind of... It's getting more evident to me that it's something that I want to do. speaker-0: I think this is the epitome of like the founder's syndrome and like the entrepreneurial syndrome because I can totally see where you're going from it. And you sit there, I do it all the time and it gets me in trouble sometimes because you sit there and go, I think I could do that better. I need something. I hate renting that because I don't own it. I'm just, you know, I'm borrowing it and then hold on, if I'm paying that and they rent that 52 weeks a year, hold on a minute. That's a lot of money. And of course, That's where you have to do your research because you realize the capital outlays and stuff like that of all the things that are involved. But I can definitely see the value in that because I think this, here we are trying to record ours and I went through the same thing. I was looking at it going, well, I know I want that, but they're asking me to invest all of this and I don't quite know whether it's going to work. I just need a space or something. To give it a go. Hence why we've converted the DFL meeting into this. I think we've done quite a good job, the plants work. So yeah, I guess that's it. So what's the next step for that do you think? speaker-1: You need to find a space for not too much money, work out the commercial opportunity for it. See if there is a thing. I'll probably put a message out on LinkedIn or something to see sort of the interest in people. Cause podcasting is obviously the current thing. and, I think there's going to be different iterations of that as well. I don't think it stops at podcasting. think there'll be another thing that a studio environment would be good for, especially with the age of AI. So yeah, I need to just do a bit of research, but I think that even just talking about it now, it's what? don't know, half past two. I've got enough time of the afternoon. I'm going to go home, do some research and try and get things into action. speaker-0: Again on that, something that I thought about the other day, like again, we spoke about me with my running on Instagram and stuff like that. I'm not a professional content creator in any sense of the imagination, but I look at some of it and think, my word, are they in a studio recording that? And I guess the possibilities are endless. I guess you could put bands in there. You could record anything. speaker-1: I've got a home situation where I've got like a ⁓ solo studio thing where you play a guitar and you sing into the computer and you can create a whole song just from my house. But if it's not soundproof correctly and you don't have the equipment, then it's so difficult. once again, recording ⁓ a studio for it, especially if you're by yourself, I think that's the biggest thing is if you've got a whole five piece band and you're rock band. then you can go and split the cost of getting a big thing. But if you're a, you know, a duo or a singular folk artist or something, and you just want to play and get something recorded so that you can have something professional and, and filmed as well, then that's the way to do it is a little studio, which, if you've got something that can be used for podcasting, for music, voiceovers, if someone needs a space for, you know, I don't know, doing voiceovers for whatever. I think there's opportunity to it, I think. speaker-0: So the last few things for that, if that takes off, we get first refusal if we need to record a podcast. can we do the line for it? speaker-1: Absolutely, yeah. Job done. Yeah, perfect. Amazing. speaker-0: Let's do it. Thank you much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. So as I say, that's the end of the episode and I didn't want to end the episode without saying a massive thank you to Amelia, who's, she does everything for this and it is fantastic. And we are not greedy in keeping it to ourselves. So if you have any ideas for professional content, videography, podcast, anything visual like this, please do check out Amelia and the Social Clima Agency. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for listening. As we've mentioned, we're keen for this to become a podcast for the whole industry. So please, feedback is welcome. Also, don't forget to like and subscribe if you want to hear more.