Latest / Boardroom Blitz / Josh Linkner - Leadership in the key of chaos
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- garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Okay, we're moving again. Yes, good to see you again. BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay, we're again. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Gary Freakin Cooper. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Gary Freaking Cooper. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yes. Good to see you again. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Hey, what's happening, man? How are you doing? Happy Friday. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Hey, what's happening, man? How are you doing? Happy Friday. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Happy Friday to you as well. I'm doing well. and it's sunny and we're almost to the end of September or s summer. So I'm I'm trying to enjoy the sun as long as we have it here in Chicago. How are you doing? BBlitz JLink GARY: happy Friday to you as well. I'm doing well. and it's sunny and we're almost to the end of September. summer. So I'm I'm trying to enjoy the sun as long as we have it here in Chicago. How are you doing? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: You're about to go for riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: You're about to go for BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: a big hike. Well, I'm I'm not I'm s keeping the focus on you. You're about to go for a big hike, right? riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: a big hike. Well, I'm I'm not I'm just keeping the focus on you. You're about to go for a big hike, right? garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yes. So tomorrow I'm going to attempt to do fifteen miles. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yes, so tomorrow I'm going to attempt to do fifteen miles. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Are you riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Are you BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: doing that with the with the whole like the ruck system too? Or are you just going straight riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: doing that with the with the whole like the ruck system too, or are you just going straight garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: No, no, just gonna just walk by my own lost one with some some gum and some w a water bottle. But no, no, not I'm not at the point of of of rucking you know, fifteen miles. That's something that's that to work up to. How about yourself? What you're doing this weekend? BBlitz JLink GARY: No, no, just gonna just walk by my own low sum with some some gum and some w water bottle. But no, no, not I'm not at the point of of of rucking you know, fifteen miles. That's something I set to work up to. How about yourself? What you doing this weekend? riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: And some hard candy. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: And some hard candy. Well, you're riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Well, you're BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: I am gonna go to a super cool jazz not jazz concert. I'm thinking about jazz already because our guest today is a fabulous jazz musician, but I'm gonna go to an Eagles concert tomorrow. There's a super great touring Eagles cover band. Yeah, and so we we're hosting them at our at our adventure park tomorrow and I love the Eagles, so my wife and I go hang out down there and have some fun. and I'm just gonna do a lot of work. I've got my last kid goes off to college here again today. So riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: I am gonna go to a super cool jazz not jazz concert. I'm thinking about jazz already because our guest today is a fabulous jazz musician, but I'm gonna go to an Eagles concert tomorrow. There's a super great touring Eagles cover band. Yeah, and so we we're hosting them at our at our adventure park tomorrow and I love the Eagles, so my wife and I go hang out down there and have some fun. and I'm just gonna do a lot of work. I've got my last kid goes off to college here again today. So garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: let's go. BBlitz JLink GARY: let's go. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. When you listen BBlitz JLink GARY: When you listen to when you listen to cover bands, I have like a theory about this, do you always compare to original? Or do you just go like, They're pretty good, but they're not like this, or this is different, they did that flip different, or do you appreciate their flips and covers independent from the originals? Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: to when you listen to cover bands, I have like a theory about this. Do you always compare to original? Or do you just go like, They're pretty good, but they're not like this, or this is different, they did that flip different? Or do you appreciate their flips and covers independent from the originals? Okay. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: It depends on the cover band, to be honest. Cause riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: It depends on the cover band, to be honest, because BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: some cover bands, like their goal is to play studio note perfect recording sound in a live audience. And that is actually really, really you know, you're a musician, it's really hard to do note perfect anytime. And it's even harder to produce studio style sound in a venue, whether it's or outdoor. So I have mad respect for the cover bands that are able to produce this amazing sound whenever they're performing. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: some cover bands like their goal is to play studio note perfect recording sound in a live audience. And that is actually really, really you know, you're a musician, it's really hard to do note perfect anytime. And it's even harder to produce studio style sound in a venue, whether it's indoor outdoor. So I have mad respect for the cover bands that are able to produce this amazing sound whenever they're performing. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. Right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Right. Yeah, yes, yes. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yep, yes, yes. Right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Right. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: And not recording half you not not playing half as recorded MP threes in the background. But but I also love when act when the when my favorite artists improvise and have fun, right? That to me, that's what music's all about. And so I love it. I love both, you know. it it maybe riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: And not recording half you not not playing half as recorded MP threes in the background. But but I also love when act when the when my favorite artists improvise and have fun, right? That to me, that's what music's all about. And so I love it. I love both, you know. it it maybe BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: We there BBlitz JLink GARY: We there is a there was a Michael Jackson cover band when I was an undergrad that was very famous that went around to a lot of universities. And they would you know, the lead singer would look like Michael Jackson from like Billy Geneir. But when I I remember repreciating 'cause I could hear the notes, I was like, this is the couple keys down and I could actually like hum along and not blow my voice. And so I actually appreciate some cover bands for for lots of different reasons, but garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: is a there was a Michael Jackson cover band when I was an undergrad that was very famous that went around to a lot of universities. And they would you know, the lead singer would look like Michael Jackson from like Billy Jean Air. But one I remember appreciating because I could hear the notes, I like, this is a couple keys down and I could actually like hum along and not blow my voice. And so I actually appreciate some cover bands for for lots of different reasons, but Some people are purists, like if you're gonna sing this song, it has to be like this person. And so I'm just kinda getting your opinion about that. BBlitz JLink GARY: Some people are purists, like if you're gonna sing this song it has to be like this person and so I was kinda getting your opinion about that. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Right. Hit the E five in the aha song. Yeah. Well it's funny. So I'm I'm BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Hit the E five in the aha song. Yeah. Well it's funny. So I'm I'm riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: doing a little show in a couple of weeks and I've had a cold and so we were rehearsing the other day for our set and we got an hour and thirty minutes into the rehearsal and I'm like recovering my throat's a disaster and we did and we and we're like, We're singing e we're playing even flow in this show. And we're like, Let's do it studio quality if we can, right? And and so know it perfect, which means you're screaming the chorus and yeah BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: doing a little show in a couple of weeks and I've had a cold and so we were rehearsing the other day for our set and we got an hour and thirty minutes into the rehearsal and I'm like recovering. My throat's a disaster and we did and we and we're like, we're singing e we're playing even flow in this show. And we're like, let's do it studio quality if we can, right? And and so know it perfect, which means you're screaming the chorus and yeah Suffice it to say, it was a bit of a disaster for me during rehearsal Anyway, this actually might be a great segue since we're already talking about music into our guests today. let me do a quick preamble because you've not met Josh Linkner in person before, but when you do, you are you are going to have met in person and not just digitally, like a true Renaissance man and a fabulous human being. So Josh has built and sold. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Suffice it to say, it was a bit of a disaster for me during recursive. Anyway, this actually might be a great segue since we're already talking about music into our guests today. let me do a quick preamble because you've not met Josh Linkner in person before, but when you do, you are you are going to have met in person and not just digitally, like a true Renaissance man and a fabulous human being. So Josh has built and sold. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yes, yes. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yes, yes. Not a person. BBlitz JLink GARY: Not a person. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: five, I believe it is, technology companies. He's helped launch more than a hundred startups in his career. He's written multiple best selling books and he's performed more than a thousand jazz gigs as a professional jazz musician. obviously like most people with a resume like that would be exhausted andor exhausting to be with. But the reality is that Josh is delightful and he's a wonderful human and I'm very glad and lucky to know him. And I'm super excited to join have him join us on the podcast today. Josh, welcome. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: five, I believe it is, technology companies. He's helped launch more than a hundred startups in his career. He's written multiple best selling books and he's performed more than a thousand jazz gigs as a professional jazz musician. obviously like most people with a resume like that would be exhausted andor exhausting to be with. But the reality is that Josh is delightful and he's a wonderful human and I'm very glad and lucky to know him. And I'm super excited to join have him join us on the podcast today. Josh, welcome. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Jeremy and Gary, thank you so much. It's a privilege to be with you. before we chat, you know, important matters. You were talking about cover bands. I want to put in a plug. There's a really fun one that I've been following called the Middle-aged Dad Jam Band. They're like in this garage in California and they sound great, but they really are having fun, which is the best part about it. And they they actually sound often like the album, they'll they'll make some creative interpretations, but highly recommend them. They have millions of fans, they have like professional musicians now sit in with them. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Jeremy and Gary, thank you so much. It's a privilege to be with you. before we chat, you know, important matters. You were talking about cover bands. I want to put in a plug. There's a really fun one that I've been following called the Middle-aged Dad Jam Band. They're like in this garage in California and they sound great, but they really are having fun, which is the best part about it. And they they actually sound often like the album, they'll they'll make some creative interpretations, but highly recommend them. They have millions of fans, they have like professional musicians now sit in with them. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Welcome Charles. BBlitz JLink GARY: Welcome to us. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Nice. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Nice. BBlitz JLink GARY: I love it. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: I love it. BBlitz JLink GARY: I love that. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Middle aged dad jamband. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Middle aged dad jamban. BBlitz JLink GARY: that sounds awesome. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: I'm gonna check out. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: gonna check out. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: that sounds awesome. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah, that's the perfect that's a perfect band name too for middle aged dads. I love it. it's super cool. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah, that's the perfect that's a perfect band name too middle aged ads. I love it. it's super cool. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: What do they cover normally, BBlitz JLink GARY: What do they cover, Norley garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Josh? Do you have you what do they cover? BBlitz JLink GARY: Josh? Do you have you what do they cover? BBlitz JLink JOSH: Like a lot eighties stuff, they Billy Joel, you know, they'll do some more modern things. they they I they just are great though. They sound they're really good, talented musicians, but just the joy that they're having, so they're like doing it by choice, not 'cause they have to. And they're in this garage and they they tell like a couple like leap preambles of like bad dad jokes and like the whole thing is kind of clever, but they're not trying to be something they're not. They're just having a good old time playing great music. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Like a lot of 80s stuff, they Billy Joel, you know, they'll do some more modern things. they they I they just are great though. They said they're really good, talented musicians, but just the joy that they're having, so they're just like doing it by choice, not because they have to. And they're in this garage and they they tell like a couple like leap preambles of like bad bad jokes, and like the whole thing is kind of clever, but they're not trying to be something they're not. They're just having a good old time playing great music. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Totally. Right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Totally. Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Amazing. BBlitz JLink GARY: Amazing. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah, I love it. Hanging out in a garage. Yeah, reminiscing and listening to and playing and listening to cool music. I like that. That could be a great job, you know. Like, imagine those guys is probably going to become like the next wave of their career because it's so popular because it's authentic and true, right? and it that's one of the things, Josh, you talk about all the time, like authenticity and like being true to yourself and the people you work with and and all that. Like, maybe this is a great way to for us to sort of kick things off. Can you can you sort of give us a l quick background of your BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah, I love it. Hanging out in a garage, yeah, reminiscing and listening to and playing and listening to cool music. I like that. That could be a great job, you know. Like, imagine for those guys, it's probably going to become like the next wave of their career because it's so popular, because it's authentic and true, right? and you're that's one of the things, Josh, you talk about all the time, like authenticity and like being true to yourself and the people you work with and and all that. Like maybe this is a great way to for us to sort of kick things off. Can you can you sort of give us a quick background of your BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: story, where you are, who you are, where you came from, what you've done and and why you're doing what you do today. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: story, where you are, who you are, where you came from, what you've done and and why you're doing what you do today. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Sure, yeah, born in the city of Detroit. I still live in Detroit. I'm very proud of my hometown, a lot of lot of a lot of soul in this city. started my career as a jazz guitar player. put myself through college playing music. I attended the Berkeley College of Music in Boston. still play regularly. I'm very passionate about all forms of music, from jazz to middle-aged dad jam bands and everywhere in between. And but I started a tech company at age 20 and I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew jazz, which is around improvisation and problem solving. And I you know, tried tried to figure it out over the next 35 years. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Sure, yeah. Born in the city of Detroit. I still live in Detroit. I'm very proud of my hometown, a lot of lot of a lot of soul in this city. started my career as a jazz guitar player. put myself through college playing music. I attended the Berkeley College of Music in Boston. still play regularly. I'm very passionate about all forms of music, from jazz to middle-aged dad jam bands and everywhere in between. And but I started a tech company at age 20 and I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew jazz, which is around improvisation and problem solving. And I, you know, tried tried to figure it out over the next 35 years. BBlitz JLink GARY: yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: I was the sole founder and CEO of five companies, each had successful exits. I started a venture fund in downtown Detroit in 2010 called Detroit Venture Partners. I was the CEO for four years, and my partner, sort of notable billionaire Dan Gilbert, bought me out at the end of 2014. And we started our current fund in 2020. And we're very active investors. We we participate in early stage AI first B2B companies, and we're active participants in their success. We don't just place bets, we BBlitz JLink JOSH: I was the sole founder and CEO of five companies, each had successful exits. I started a venture fund in downtown Detroit in 2010 called Detroit Venture Partners. I was the CEO for four years, and my partner, sort of notable billionaire Dan Gilbert, bought me out at the end of 2014. And we started our current fund in 2020. And we're very active investors. We we participate in early stage AI first B2B companies, and we're active participants in their success. We don't just place bets. We riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Taking more of an active role, supporting them, not you know, supervising them, but pr trying to provide real value to help them accelerate growth and mitigate risk. The other weird thread is I'm an author. I've written now five books on the topic of innovation, innovative leadership. And that has opened up the door to a lot of professional keynote speaking. I've done about 1,500 keynotes over the years, which is really an honor to be able to share ideas and help people look at the world differently. And I've gotten to meet C-level executives across the world, which it ironically fuels our venture fund. BBlitz JLink JOSH: taking more of an active role, supporting them, not, you know, supervising them, but trying to provide real value to help them accelerate growth and mitigate risk. The other weird thread is I'm an author. I've written now five books on the topic of innovation, innovative leadership. And that has opened up the door to a lot of professional keynote speaking. I've done about 1500 keynotes over the years, which is really an honor to be able to share ideas and help people look at the world differently. And I've gotten to meet C-level executives across the world, which it ironically fuels our venture fund. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: So weird background, jazz musician, entrepreneur, venture investor, author. But I love what I do and I'm very grateful to be able to doing to to be able to support entrepreneurs and and and help people grow meaningful companies. BBlitz JLink JOSH: So weird background, jazz musician, entrepreneur, venture investor, author. But I love what I do and I'm very grateful to be able to doing to to be able to support entrepreneurs and and and help people grow meaningful companies. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: It's awesome. When you do it well. One of the things that, you know, as a as a jazz I've I've heard Gary, I've I've heard Josh play before and like he is legit, like amazingly talented art player and musician. It's so fun to listen to you. And I remember the first time I heard you play, you sort of like had an opportunity as as as any great riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: It's awesome. Well, you do it well. One of the things that, you know, as a as a jazz, I've I've heard and Gary, I've I've heard Josh play before, and like he is legit, like amazingly talented art player and musician. It's so fun to listen to you. And I remember the first time I heard you play, you sort of like had an opportunity, as as as any great garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Es que BBlitz JLink GARY: Es que BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: jazz musician does to so to go spontaneous. I remember watching you and like the way your face lit up differently riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: jazz musician does to so go spontaneous. I remember watching you and like the way your face lit up differently. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: when you were going s when you were spontaneously like improvising and playing what was sort of running through your mind and your heart at the time. and which is one of my favorite parts about looking at and watching musicians play. Again went back to this first question about like, well do you like jam bands? Do you like improv groups? Do you like cover bands that like take creative liberties? And like it's so much fun because that's how you get to know the person. and you can see the joy like in your face when you're playing. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: when you were going s when you were spontaneously like improvising and playing what was sort of running through your mind and your heart at the time. and which is one of my favorite parts about looking at and watching musicians play. Again, going back to this first question about like, well, do you like jam bands? Do you like improv groups? Do you like cover bands that like take creative liberties? And like it's so much fun because that's how you get to know the person. and you can see the joy like in your face when you're playing. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Right. If we BBlitz JLink GARY: If we riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: but of course like everything sounds spontaneous and it's gorgeous when you're a professional, but that that BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: But of course, like everything sounds spontaneous and it's gorgeous when you're a professional. but that that that sound and that quality is built on years of disciplined practice that no one sees when you're, you know, when your fingers are bleeding on the fretboard. when d I'm curious if you if there's a point in your career when you realized that like the jazz club improv session and the boardroom contain like roughly the same number of people pretending they know what's gonna happen next. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: That sound and that quality is built on years of disciplined practice that no one sees when you're, you know, when your fingers are bleeding on the fretboard. when did I'm curious if you if there's a point in your career when you realized that like the jazz club improv session and the boardroom contain like roughly the same number of people pretending they know what's gonna happen next. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Anyway. BBlitz JLink GARY: A name. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: You know, because cause businesses improv oftentimes were reacting in real time. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: You know, no 'cause 'cause businesses improv oftentimes we're reacting in real time. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Right. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: have you ever had that sort of feeling in a in a boardroom or in in a keynote or sitting down with a with an entrepreneur or a team? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: have you ever had that sort of feeling in a in a boardroom or in in a keynote or sitting down with a with an entrepreneur or a team? riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Well it's really funny that you asked that. you know, I started my first company having having never taken a business course. And the it wasn't intentional, I wish I could say I had some master plan, but the skills in jazz are exactly translatable to the world of business today. And and just a quick reflection on that, you know, I think in the past, business was much more like classical music. There was one leader in the center of the room, and and the role of a classical musician is to play the notes exactly as Mozart intended. BBlitz JLink JOSH: It's really funny that you asked that. you know, I started my first company having having never taken a business course. And the it wasn't intentional, I wish I could say I had some master plan, but the skills in jazz are exactly translatable to the world of business today. And just a quick reflection on that, you know, I think in the past, business was much more like classical music. There was one leader in the center of the room, and and the role of a classical musician is to play the notes exactly as Mozart intended. BBlitz JLink GARY: Thank you. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: So it's around accuracy and precision and alignment, checklists, relying on your training. And you're really not creating something that new in real time. You know, you're performing an existing creation. But the world that we're living in today is too fast, too volatile, too competitive. We just don't have that luxury anymore. Today we have to perform at our best without all the notes in front of us. And I think that we're we were being called to lead in a really different way. We we used to be a classical musician leader made sense that that could get you by. BBlitz JLink JOSH: So it's around accuracy and precision and alignment, checklists, relying on your training. And you're really not creating something that new in real time. You know, you're performing an existing creation. But the world that we're living in today is too fast, too volatile, too competitive. We just don't have that luxury anymore. Today we have to perform at our best without all the notes in front of us. And I think that we're we were being called to lead in a really different way. We we used to be a classical musician leader made sense that that could get you by. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: I don't think it works today. And and even if not everyone loves listening to jazz, I know it's an acquired taste. I think that's exactly the formula going forward, which is using situational awareness and act of listening. It's adapting rapidly to change. It's it's around recovering quickly from setbacks, it's around improvising to deliver good outcomes. And so I think that putting the notes out of the equation, the the the sort of mindsets and and and and mental models BBlitz JLink JOSH: I don't think it works today. And even if not everyone loves listening to jazz, I know it's an acquired taste. I think that's exactly the formula going forward, which is using situational awareness and act of listening. It's adapting rapidly to change. It's it's around recovering quickly from setbacks, it's around improvising to deliver good outcomes. And so I think that putting the notes out of the equation, the the sort of mindsets and and and and mental models. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: well. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: that that jazz musicians deploy every day. BBlitz JLink JOSH: that that jazz musicians deploy every day are exactly what we need to do to drive successful companies. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Or exactly what we need to do to drive successful companies. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: I love that answer. I love that thought. Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: That answer. I love that thought. Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: When when you I actually have a some small practical question, you know, when do you get time to practice? You know, I I I'm curious, like, you know, as you s as you told your story, Josh, I mean, obviously you you're you're helping a lot of entrepreneurs, you're leading a fund, you're a community member, and you play. I I'm just curious, like, what's a like I don't know if it's a week is the right unit of time or a day, but how do you fit in? Because even for me, playing the violin. BBlitz JLink GARY: When when you I actually have a s small practical question, you know, when do you get time to practice? You know, I I I'm curious, like, you know, as you s as you told your story, Josh, I mean, obviously you you're you're helping a lot of entrepreneurs, you're leading a fund, you're a community member, and you play I I'm just curious, like what's a like I don't know if it's a week is the right unit of time or a day, but how do you fit in? Because even for me playing the violin. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Like I I don't I don't practice probably as much as I should, as much as my brain wants me to. So I'm curious, like, how do you think about servicing these bits and pieces of your life in the way that you your heart wants to? BBlitz JLink GARY: Like I I don't I don't practice probably as much as I should, as much as my brain wants me to. So I'm curious, like, how do you think about servicing these bits and pieces of your life in the way that you your heart wants to? BBlitz JLink JOSH: Well, the first thing I'll share is that I feel like I'm never servicing all of them the way I want to. I feel like I'm letting every dimension down regularly. You know, so just to be clear about that. you know, with these days, I, you know, because you know, I spend years, you know, 14 hours a day with a metronome in a room locked there with a pot of coffee. I don't practice that that way anymore. But it's almost like life is practice. And and I know this sounds like some cheesy BS rehearsed answer. It's just not, but like I just play jazz every day. Sometimes it's with a musical instrument. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Well, the first thing I'll share is that I feel like I'm never servicing all of them the way I want to. I feel like I'm letting every dimension down regularly. You know, so just to be clear about that. you know, with these days, I, you know, because yeah, I spent years, you know, fourteen hours a day with a metronome in a room locked there with a pot of coffee. I don't practice that that way anymore. But it's almost like life is practice. And and I know this sounds like some cheesy BS rehearsed answer. It's just not, but like I just play jazz every day. Sometimes it's with a musical instrument. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Sometimes it's having a conversation like this. And and and when you think about a conversation, Gary, it's exactly what jazz is. You none the three of us aren't reading from a script. You asked a really thoughtful question, I'll respond to that. Jeremy will weigh in, and we're just sort of because we don't have to think about the language anymore. We're not saying, Hey, how do how do I make that verb end with a parent? Like you're not you you have enough mastery of the English language where you can just sort of flow and converse. And that's exactly what jazz is with other musicians, instead of using words, you're using notes. And and so BBlitz JLink JOSH: Sometimes it's having a conversation like this. And and and when you think about a conversation, Gary, it's exactly what jazz is. You none the three of us aren't reading from a script. You asked a really thoughtful question, I'll respond to that. Jeremy will weigh in, and we're just sort of because we don't have to think about the language anymore. We're not saying, Hey, how do I how do I make that verb end with a parent? Like you're not you you have enough mastery of the English language where you can just sort of flow and converse. And that's exactly what jazz is with other musicians, instead of using words, you're using notes. And and so garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Right. BBlitz JLink JOSH: You probably don't sit down and say, How can I practice verb conjugation? You just you know that and the way you practice is you interact with people and you have conversations and you create things. So all these weird dimensions in my life are really the way I think about it anyway, is actually just playing jazz. Sometimes it's a guitar, sometimes it's working with an entrepreneur, sometimes it's writing a book, sometimes it's delivering a keynote. But but they all have the same fundamental underpinnings. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: You probably don't sit down and say, How can I practice verb conjugation? You just you know that and the way you practice is you interact with people and you have conversations and you create things. So all these weird dimensions in my life are really the way I think about it anyway, is actually just playing jazz. Sometimes it's a guitar, sometimes it's working with an entrepreneur, sometimes it's writing a book, sometimes it's delivering a keynote. But but they all have the same fundamental underpinnings. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Right. Right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Right. Right. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Maybe. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. Right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Right. I love that you know, quadger. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: I love that you know, quadger. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah, well, I'll say so from a team perspective, th again, thinking about jazz and business and and and whatnot. So is there like a business equivalent of when a musician like plays too many notes? Right. Think about that. Like, I mean, we've all experienced this, right? Being in the being in the roof studio or on stage or whatever else. And sometimes we get a little carried away, right? whether it's in business or in music. So I'm curious as like I'd imagine you have some cool anecdote that you've that you've come up with over time about like, yeah, when they when the guy or gal next to you is playing too many notes, like what do you do? You know? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah, well, say so from a team perspective, th again, thinking about jazz and business and and and whatnot. So is there like a business equivalent of when a musician like plays too many notes? Right. Think about that. Like, I mean, we've all experienced this, right? Being in the being in the roof studio or on stage or whatever else. And sometimes we get a little carried away, right? whether it's in business or in music. So I'm curious as to like I'd imagine you have some cool anecdote that you've that you've come up with over time about yeah, when they when the guy or gal next to you is playing too many notes, like what do you do? You know? BBlitz JLink GARY: Two. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm, mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: I'm sure Jeremy, you've never been in a pitch or a meeting where some, you know, person is labored on and were a terrible listener and interrupted you all the time. Like, of course, right? And so it's very funny because people behave the way they, you know, in in different dimensions of life. the best jazz musicians, by the way, are not the ones with the best chops. They're the ones who are often the best listeners. They're the ones who are most sensitive. They're they're often putting them in in themselves in a supporting and responsive category rather than a in a sort of a a performative sense. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Jeremy, you've never been in a pitch or a meeting where some you know person is labored on and we're a terrible listener and interrupted you all the time. Like, of course, right? And so it's very funny because people behave the way they, you know, in in different dimensions of life. the best jazz musicians, by the way, are not the ones with the best chops. They're the ones who are often the best listeners. They're the ones who are most sensitive. They're they're often putting them in themselves in a supporting and responsive category rather than a you know sort of a a performative sense. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Mm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Never happened. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Never happened. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And so same thing in business, same thing in life. You know, you want to hang out with people that can engage, not just sort of barrel over the top of you. And I've seen people do that in music, I see people that do that in in business in life. BBlitz JLink JOSH: And so same thing in business, same thing in life. You know, you want to hang out with people that can engage, not just sort of barrel over the top of you. And I see people do that in music, I see people that do that in in business in life. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. Yeah. There's a time when the CEO should shut their mouth and let other people do the job and listen, right? Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah. There's a time when the CEO should shut their mouth and let other people do the job and listen, right? Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. a a garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. Mm-hmm. a a BBlitz JLink JOSH: Hundred percent. Yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Hundred percent. Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: quote that a quote that goes nowhere, but I just thought of during the pandemic, it was like one of my first cab rides. You know, I had had we'd all been in the house for like a nine months. I took a cab downtown and I just remember everyone was hunking their horn and the cabbie said, so much noise and no jazz. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: quote that a quote that goes nowhere, but I just thought of during the pandemic, it was like one of my first cab rides. You know, I had had we'd all been in the house for like a nine months. I took a cab downtown and I just remember everyone was hunting their horn and the cabby said, So much noise and no jazz. And I thought that was it's like such an interesting quote. BBlitz JLink GARY: And I thought that was just like such an interesting quote and to what you were just saying, Josh, you know, this this ability. even in that moment he made me feel something about like making me recognize that it's not coming together. Thing there there's no rhythm, there's no melody here. but there's so much noise. So yeah, yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: And to what you were just saying, Josh, you know, this this ability. even in that moment he made me feel something about like making me recognize that it's not coming together. Think there there's no rhythm, there's no melody here. but there's so much noise. So yeah, yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: It's it's such BBlitz JLink JOSH: It's it's such a good observation. You know, I I'm working on a new book. you've probably heard of the idea of flow state, which is actually from a University of Chicago professor, which is around sort of this this state of optimal creative expression individually. The book I'm working on now is entitled Co-Flow: The Science and Soul of Collaborative Creativity. So if flow is individual expression, co-flow is maximized team or or or a group collaboration, which is really what jazz and by the way, what business is. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: a good observation. You know, I'm working on a new book. you've probably heard of the idea of flow state, which is actually from a University of Chicago professor, which is around sort of this state of optimal creative expression individually. The book I'm working on now is entitled Co-Flow: The Science and Soul of Collaborative Creativity. So if flow is individual expression, COFLO is maximized team or group collaboration, which is really what jazz and by the way, what business is. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yes. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yes. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah. Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: So I'm doing tons and tons of research research. When I write a book, it's not just sitting down and writing. I mean, thousands of hours of research. And sort of narrow it down to these kind of underlying principles, which will apply to creative expression, but but absolutely apply to business and entrepreneurship. And we're talking about jazz. One of them is receptive presence, which is really being able to not just barrel over the top and recite your lines, but to receive and then sort of allow that what you take in, the inputs, to shape your next move. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: So I'm doing tons and tons of research. When I write a book, it's not just sitting down and writing. I mean, thousands of hours of research. And sort of narrow it down to these kind of underlying principles, which will apply to creative expression, but absolutely apply to business and entrepreneurship. And we're talking about jazz. One of them is receptive presence, which is really being able to not just barrel over the top and recite your lines, but to receive and then sort of allow that what you take in, the inputs, to shape your next move. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. Right. D V garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Right. D V BBlitz JLink JOSH: Another one of them is inventive reach, which is the willingness not only just to get through something, but to push the creative boundaries. Another one is called risk permission, which is a little different than psychological safety. It's encouraging you, and others in the in the in the setting encourage you to go out on a limb a bit and try new things, knowing that that if you fall, you're not gonna, you you're not gonna get fired, kind of thing. And so I've been working with these different principles, and it's been fun to see them, even though I'm kind of looking at them in sort of an innovative sense. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Another one of them is inventive reach, which is the willingness not only just to get through something, but to push the creative boundaries. Another one is called risk permission, which is a little different than psychological safety. It's encouraging you, and others in the in the in the setting encourage you to go out on a limb a bit and try new things, knowing that that if you fall, you're not gonna, you you're not gonna get fired, kind of thing. And so I've been working with these different principles, and it's been fun to see them, even though I'm kind of looking at them in sort of an innovative sense. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Go ahead. BBlitz JLink GARY: Go ahead. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. BBlitz JLink JOSH: and how how adaptable they are to to to both business and even interpersonal relationships. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: and how how adaptable they are to to to both business and even interpersonal relationships. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: That's so interesting. BBlitz JLink GARY: That's so interesting. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah, well, I love that. One of the so this reminds me too, and so I was I I've got I probably I should have grabbed your books, they're right on my shelf over there. I should have like pulled up some spots I've got I've got annotated 'cause I have some questions about some of the stuff you said, but one related to to the to the point you just made, I know, you know, you've talked before and argued and I think this is kind of related, like this notion that conventional brainstorming triggers like self censorship. and like ultimately, like BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah, well, I I love that. One of the so this reminds me too, and so I was I I've got I probably I should have grabbed your books. They're right on my shelf over there and I should have like pulled up some spots I've got I've got annotated 'cause I have some questions about some of the stuff you said, but one related to to the to the point you just made, I know, you know, you've talked before and argued, and I think this is kind of related, like this notion that conventional brainstorming triggers like self censorship. and like ultimately, like garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. Interesting. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. Interesting. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: It can anchor it ca so self-censorship, like blocking and like anchoring in potentially bad patterns, right? and and I know you've talked a lot about you know the idea of like turning brainstorming sessions into something more like a jam session where you're just all comfortable, free-flowing, talking, communicating, like just spit you know, spitballing and stuff like that. like the i i is that sort of foundation. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: It can anchor it cause so self-censorship, like blocking and like anchoring in potentially bad patterns, right? and and I know you've talked a lot about you know the idea of like turning brainstorming sessions into something more like a jam session where you're just all comfortable, free flowing, talking, communicating, like just spit, you know, spitballing and stuff like that. like the i is that sort of foundation. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: part of the the the new research and the new topics that you're researching for your newest book or and and where where do they relate? How do they how do they sit together? I'm thinking, you know, for our audience that thinks about which of my which of Josh's books should I read on the back of this call first and which one should I be looking most forward to. I I always love, you know, the building block approach to to learning more and growing. So how's how do those connect? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: part of the the the new research and the new topics that you're researching for your newest book or and and where where do they relate? How do they how do they sit together? I'm thinking, you know, for our audience that thinks about which of my which of Josh's books should I read on the back of this call first and which one should I be looking most forward to. I I always love, you know, the building block approach to to learning more and growing. So how's how do those connect? BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Yeah, thank you, Fred. But that doesn't matter what anyone wants to read, that's a separate thing. But I think what would be helpful you're talking about is you know, what's an effective way to come up with new ideas, ideation, and and find new paths forward and solve really tough challenges or seize new opportunities. you're right. So brainstorming was invented in like 1958. And it's imagine using a 1958 technology for your computer. It'd be ridiculous. And and and that's but often the the primary tool that people use. Not only is it outdated, it's fundamentally broken. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Yeah, thank you, Fred. But that doesn't matter what anyone wants to read, that's a separate thing. But I think what would be helpful you're talking about is, you know, what's an effective way to come up with new ideas, ideation, and and find new paths forward and solve really tough challenges or seize new opportunities. you're right. So brainstorming was invented in like 1958. And it's imagine using a 1958 technology for your computer. It'd be ridiculous. And and and that's but often the the primary tool that people use. Not only is it outdated, it's fundamentally broken. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Okay. BBlitz JLink GARY: With me. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Because when you brainstorm, you're endorsing an idea as you say it. So it you're you're almost like responsible for the idea. The research, and I've been researching human creativity now for a couple decades, is so clear that all human beings are built to be creative. We're hardwired for that. That's our nature. Now it doesn't mean everyone has to play jazz guitar or do interpretive dance, but but we are all creative in our own ways. If you're breathing, you're creative. But so the biggest blocker of creative output isn't natural talent. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Because when you brainstorm, you're endorsing an idea as you say it. So it you're you're almost like responsible for the idea. The research, and I've been researching human creativity now for a couple of decades, is so clear that all human beings are built to be creative. We're hardwired for that. That's our nature. Now it doesn't mean everyone has to play jazz guitar or do interpretive dance, but but we are all creative in our own ways. If you're breathing, you're creative. But so the biggest blocker of creative output isn't natural talent. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: It's fear. Fear is that sort of poisonous force that that robs us of our best thinking. And so in a brainstorming session to your question, it we we share our safe ideas but hold our our more wild ones back, which is why it's totally ineffective. A better approach that I just real quick because it's practical, but if you just simply do a brainstorm session but put a slight modification where every person has to respond with the word what if before their idea. Because now I'm not endorsing an idea, I'm speculating. BBlitz JLink JOSH: It's fear. Fear is that sort of poisonous force that that robs us of our best thinking. And so in a brainstorming session to your question, it we we share our safe ideas but hold our our more wild ones back, which is why it's totally ineffective. A better approach that I just real quick, because it's practical, but if you just simply do a brainstorm session but put a slight modification where every person has to respond with the word what if before their idea. Because now I'm not endorsing an idea, I'm speculating. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: What if we tried this? What if what about that? And and you're not responsible. That alone, that simple tweak, can radically change the the output of a session because now people don't feel shak like, what if my people laugh at my idea? What what if the boss hates it? What if I piss somebody off? You're just you're just speculating. Exactly right. And I I talk about a bunch of other techniques in my body work over the last 20 years. But but the nice thing is that, and the headline isn't so much the technique itself, but that we are all capable of generating really BBlitz JLink JOSH: What if we tried this? What if what about that? And and you're not responsible. That alone, that simple tweak, can radically change the the output of a session because now people don't feel shak like, what if my people laugh at my idea? What what if the boss hates it? What if I piss somebody off? You're just you're just speculating. Exactly right. And I I talk about a bunch of other techniques in my body work over the last 20 years. But but the nice thing is that, and the headline isn't so much the technique itself, but that we are all capable of generating really riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah, as I say, what if the executive in the room says it's dumb? Yeah, all that. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah, as I say, what if the executive in the room says it's dumb? Yeah, all that. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: net BBlitz JLink JOSH: net riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: new things, you know, positive things that will will make an impact in our businesses and our lives. and and so we have a capacity. It's just a matter of putting some structure around it to bring that capacity to life. BBlitz JLink JOSH: new things, you know, positive things that will will make an impact in our businesses and our lives. and and so we have a capacity. It's just a matter of putting some structure around it to bring that capacity to life. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: So here's a question on that, if you don't mind. Like, so this is a tough thing, right? Because we're all leaders. We've all all found ourselves in the room talking with our teams, and every one of us has a strong opinion about our business or about direction because it's a well informed opinion based on experience and tacit knowledge and yada yada. So and one thing I struggle with sometimes is I don't want to be the one to introduce the idea. I don't want to be the one to look like the bull in the china shop, but I also have a I mean I'm a I'm a I've a BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: So here's a question on that, if you don't mind. Like, so this is a tough thing, right? Because we're all leaders. We've all all found ourselves in the room talking with our teams, and every one of us has a strong opinion about our business or about direction because it's a well-informed opinion based on experience and tacit knowledge and yada yada yah. So and one thing I struggle with sometimes is I don't want to be the one to introduce the idea. I don't want to be the one to look like the bull in the china shop, but I also have a I I've a I'm a I've a riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: I have a a passionate personality and I want to share my thinking and I want to be pushed back. And sometimes it can be so passionate that people are like, crap, he's just gonna bow me over if I say that's dumb. And I'm like, never, please push back. But so where I'm going with this question is so what should a leader do, in your opinion, when the first idea comes from either you know the highest paid person in the room or the highest ranking official in the room or whatever, and people immediately del develop this sort of powerful emotional attachment to agreeing with it. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: I have a a passionate personality and I want to share my thinking and I want to be pushed back. And sometimes it can be so passionate that people are like, crap, he's just gonna bowl me over if I say that's dumb. And I'm like, never, please push back. But so where I'm going with this question is so what should a leader do, in your opinion, when the first idea comes from either, you know, the highest paid person in the room or the highest ranking official in the room or whatever, and people immediately deliver develop this sort of powerful emotional attachment to agreeing with it. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Because they want to not ruffle feathers up the chain. Does that make sense? I think people struggle with this all the time. So how how d how what's your advice for that? riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Because they want to not ruffle feathers up the chain. Does that make sense? I think people struggle with this all the time. So how how d how what's your advice for that? BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Funny BBlitz JLink GARY: Funny story I was gonna ask the same question. To the spirit of it. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: story I was gonna ask the same question. To the spirit of it. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: you were okay. Things Gary and Jeremy are struggling with in our lives. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: you were okay. Things Gary and Jeremy are struggling with in our lives. BBlitz JLink JOSH: The biggest thing that leaders can do is create an environment that's safe, where all ideas are celebrated, not shunned. And simply put, fear and creativity cannot coexist. So your job as a leader is to remove the fear to let the ideas blossom. And so, really, what your job is to create the conditions that allow natural creativity to flow instead of being blocked or repressed. So, what are what are some practical things? Let's say the leader, I mean, again, this would have to be in a culture that made sense to do this, but Jerry, let's say you're the leader of riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: The biggest thing that leaders can do is create an environment that's safe, where all ideas are celebrated, not shunned. And and simply put, fear and creativity cannot coexist. So your job as a leader is to remove the fear to let the ideas blossom. And so really what your job is to create the conditions that allow natural creativity to flow instead of being blocked or or repressed. So what what are some practical things? Let's say the leader, I mean, again, this would have to be in a culture that made sense to do this, but Jeremy, let's say you're the leader of BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Okay. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: You said BBlitz JLink JOSH: You said riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: this killer idea, now it's like hard for me as your subordinate to disagree with it. You know, you might say to yourself, hey, I came up with the idea. Now let me tell you all the reasons why that idea sucks. Let me play the other side of it. And it's not like the proverbial like you know, devil's advocate. I don't really love that term, but but you could even, I've seen people assign a blocker. So the leader would say, Hey, Gary, your job in this meeting is to be the blocker. Anytime anyone says an idea, you're just gonna like vehemently argue why it's not a good idea. BBlitz JLink JOSH: this killer idea, now it's like hard for me as your subordinate to disagree with it. You know, you might say to yourself, hey, I came up with the idea. Now let me tell you all the reasons why that idea sucks. Let me play the other side of it. And it's not like that the proverbial like you know, devil's advocate. I don't really love that term, but but you can even I've seen people assign a blocker. So the leader would say, Hey, Gary, your job in this meeting is to be the blocker. Anytime anyone says an idea, you're just gonna like vehemently argue why it's not a good idea. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And and what happens is when you argue that my idea is bad and I don't yell at you, or I say, Wow, Gary, thanks for sharing that perspective. That was really smart. Now everybody else is emboldened to have disagreements that are productive, not not you know, cutting people down to to ultimately lead to a better outcome. you know, you can also, if you're the leader, instead of you pounding on the table first, how about you hold your cool cool idea back and see what you can draw out of other people? You know, and maybe when you ultimately share your idea, even if it was your idea to begin with, you could say, actually, when I put together what Gary and Jeremy and BBlitz JLink JOSH: And and what happens is when you argue that my idea is bad and I don't yell at you, or I say, wow, Gary, thanks for sharing that perspective. That was really smart. Now everybody else is emboldened to have disagreements that are productive, not not you know, cutting people down to to ultimately lead to a better outcome. you know, you can also, if you're the leader, instead of you pounding on the table first, how about you hold your cool cool idea back and see what you can draw out of other people? You know, and maybe when you ultimately share your idea, even if it was your idea to begin with, you could say, actually, when I put together what Gary and Jeremy and BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And Jenny said together, it reminds me of this. So you're sort of diverting credit to others as opposed to it's like, well, everyone's job is just to listen to me because I'm the leader. So it's the more voices, the more diversity of thought, the more discourse ultimately leads to the better. BBlitz JLink JOSH: And Jenny said together, it reminds me of this. So you're sort of diverting credit to others as opposed to it's like, well, everyone's job is just to listen to me because I'm the leader. So it's the more voices, the more diversity of thought, the more discourse ultimately leads to the better. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: If if it riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Almost even also the more like self deprecation, meaning i in and recognition that my idea is not the idea, guys. It's it's here's the thought to get the conversation started versus a conversation starter and stopper. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Almost even also the more self deprecation, meaning i and recognition that my idea is not the idea, guys. It's it's here's the thought to get the conversation started versus a conversation starter and stopper. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: It it seems like also god, that's fun. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And and a good fundamental like cultural principle is that BBlitz JLink JOSH: And and a good fundamental like cultural principle is that BBlitz JLink GARY: It seems like also god, that's fun. BBlitz JLink JOSH: the best idea should win, not the person with the fanciest title or the loudest voice. And so the way you do that is model it. So if if I'm the leader in a in a room, there's eight people and and all of a sudden, you know, I shared some idea, but the one that wins is the most junior person. That happens four times in a row. Now you've trained that team that it's okay. You don't have to just agree with the boss. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: the best idea should win, not the person with the fanciest title or the loudest voice. And so the way you do that is model it. So if if I'm the leader in a in a room, there's eight people and and all of a sudden, you know, I shared some idea, but the one that wins is the most junior person, that happens four times in a row. Now you've trained that team that it's okay. You don't have to just agree with the boss. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Exactly. BBlitz JLink GARY: Exactly. Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Right. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Totally. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah, BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: j yeah, Josh kind of a corollary to this is actually something that I learned through mentorship and actually therapy, which is being bringing your authentic true self to my therapist slash CEO coach calls it whatever table you're at. So his you know, there's there's many tables that I've been at where in my own mind I think I didn't feel I had enough value. BBlitz JLink GARY: j yeah, Josh kind of a corollary to this is actually something that I learned through mentorship and actually therapy, which is being bringing your authentic true self to my therapist slash CEO coach calls it whatever table you're at. So his you know, there's there's many tables that I've been at where in my own mind I think I didn't feel I had enough value. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: To go like what you just said was not how I would think of it. I would think of it from this perspective because I have this background, this experience. And so I wonder how you think about in the spirit of creating creativity, authenticity, trueness as a value to those creative discussions that are happening. BBlitz JLink GARY: To go like what you just said was not how I would think of it. I would think of it from this perspective because I have this background, this experience. And so I wonder how you think about in the spirit of creating creativity, authenticity, trueness as a value to those creative discussions that are happening. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: It's a great point. you know, I think as a leader, you you want to like set the tone for that. And that can be with a with a mechanic or you know, you gamify it, or it can just be a principle, which is that listen, it's really important that everybody's voice is heard here. And I don't want you to just parrot back what I'm saying. I want to hear what you're saying. If I just I don't why would you be in the room if it's just me? I talked to myself. Like the whole we are here to co-create a masterpiece together. Everybody's voice matters. And if we're all homogenous, then there's no point even having the meeting. And so then like let's say, let's say you gear, you're a little quiet and BBlitz JLink JOSH: It's great point. you know, I think as a leader, you you want to like set the tone for that. And that can be with a with a mechanic or you know, you gamify it, or it can just be a principle, which is that I listen, it's really important that everybody's voice is heard here. And I don't want you to just pair back what I'm saying. I want to hear what you're saying. If I just I don't why would you be in the room if it was just me? I'd talk to myself. Like the whole we are here to co-create a masterpiece together. Everybody's voice matters. And if we're all homogenous, then there's no point even having the meeting. And so then like let's say let's say you're a little quiet and say, BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: What do you have to say, Gary? And then you're like timidly say something, well, that's great, man. I love where you're going. Tell me more about that. Where else could you see that lead it? And you're like encouraging people's authenticity as opposed to saying, What a dumb idea, you know, which is often what leaders do. And so it's it's just the repetition of getting people to feel comfortable opening up. It's funny, like I I I see this all the time. You're in some meeting and and one person has an idea, and the other people in the meeting become the idea police. BBlitz JLink JOSH: What do you have to say, Gary? And then you're like timidly say something, that's great, man. I love where you're going. Tell me more about that. Where else could you see that leading? And you're like encouraging people's authenticity as opposed to saying, What a dumb idea, you know, which is often what leaders do. And so it's it's just the repetition of getting people to feel comfortable opening up. It's funny, like I I I see this all the time. You're in some meeting and and one person has an idea, and the other people in the meeting become the idea police. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm, mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm, mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And they tell you all the reasons it's not gonna work and it won't fit in the PowerPoint and the boss isn't gonna like it. And and what are you doing? You're like training that person to never share. Or or if someone comes on on your team and they have an idea, let's say it's bad idea, you're like, it's a terrible idea, get back to your cube. Again, you're just you're new to that person forever. Not saying you should lie and say it's a good idea, just engage in a non-judgmental way. Huh? How'd you come up with that idea, Gary? Where do you see it leading? You know, and so now now the person feels validated and heard and understood, which is fundamental. BBlitz JLink JOSH: And they tell you all the reasons it's not gonna work and it won't fit in the PowerPoint and the boss isn't gonna like it. And and what are you doing? You're like training that person to never share. Or or if someone comes on on your team and they have an idea, let's say it's a bad idea, you're like, it's a terrible idea, get back to your cube. Again, you're just you're new to that person forever. Not saying you should lie and say it's a good idea, just engage in a non-judgmental way. Huh? How'd you come up with that idea, Gary? Where do you see it leading? BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Mm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: You know, and so now now the person feels validated and heard and understood, which is fundamental riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: crucial to to human nature. And now you go back to your desk feeling good. Then you come back with another bad idea. And again, no judgment, you you kind of have conversation. The eighth idea, what if that's the killer idea that changes the entire complexion of the organization that in most companies would be never never surface because everyone's walking around afraid? So I think again, one of the fundamental jobs as a leader is to create the conditions that allow human imagination BBlitz JLink JOSH: crucial to to human nature. And now you go back to your desk feeling good. Then you come back with another bad idea. And n again, no judgment, you you kinda have a conversation. The eighth idea, what if that's the killer idea that changes the entire complexion of the organization that in most companies would be never never surfaced because everyone's walking around afraid? So I think again, one of the fundamental jobs as a leader is to create the conditions that allow human imagination BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Right. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Right. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: to be unleashed. BBlitz JLink JOSH: To be unleashed. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d 2 CFR: Yeah, yeah, no. BBlitz JLink GARY: yeah no. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Well, BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Well, riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: it's like that you've talked about the sort of the you know the growth stage paradox before in conversations that I've had with you and the and your team. Like this notion that s that startups celebrate improvisation and rapid change and disruption and blah blah blah. But growth companies at a certain stage, and certainly global megacorps, oftentimes develop this passionate interest in forms and committees and like governance and like disciplined structure and bureaucracy. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: it's like that you've talked about the sort of the you know the growth stage paradox before in conversations that I've had with you and the and your team. Like this notion that's that startups celebrate improvisation and rapid change and disruption and blah, blah, blah. But growth companies at a certain stage, and certainly global megacorps, oftentimes develop this passionate interest in forms and committees and like governance and like disciplined structure and bureaucracy. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Which are necessary because with growth and with complexity, you need these scaffoldings, right, to be able to hold everything together. but one thing I think that's that I hear from people all the time is that they struggle with this notion of how do you preserve like invention and this sort of open ideology, open framework. It's okay to still improvise even though we have bureaucra bureaucracy in place when we're still trying to install these repeatable processes. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Which are necessary because with growth and with complexity, you need these scaffoldings, right, to be able to hold everything together. but one thing I think that's that I hear from people all the time is that they struggle with this notion of how do you preserve like invention and this sort of open ideology, open framework. It's okay to still improvise even though we have bureaucra bureaucracy in place when we're still trying to install these repeatable processes. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: So w when you talk to companies about this kind of stuff, like how do you sort of provide the yin and the yang of that relationship? Like it's okay to still break stuff, even though you have to continue to build big bureaucracy and scaffolding, right? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: So w when you talk to companies about this kind of stuff, like how do you sort of provide the yin and the yang of that relationship? Like it's okay to still break stuff, even though you have to continue to build big bureaucracy and scaffolding, right? riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Such a great question. I I I experience that that paradox and and predicament all the time when I work with large companies. I I I think there's a couple things. So, first of all, sometimes people they apply the same approach to to every situation as opposed to compartmentalizing. So someone might, for example, say, we're too too big to be innovative, or or we're we're in financial services and that's a highly regulated industry, so therefore I can't innovate on anything, as opposed to saying, okay, let's just separate that, you BBlitz JLink JOSH: Such a great question. I I I experience that that paradox and and predicament all the time when I work with large companies. I I think there's a couple of things. So, first of all, sometimes people they apply the same approach to to every situation as opposed to compartmentalizing. So someone might, for example, say, we're too too big to be innovative, or or we're we're in financial services and that's a highly regulated industry, so therefore I can't innovate on anything, as opposed to saying, okay, let's just separate that. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: know. There are some things we can't. Let's not break a regulatory burden. Let's not break the law. Of course not. But what about customer experience? You could you could play with that. What about the way you interview a job candidate? What about other settings? And so starting to look for areas where you can inject room for creativity in a you know a sort of a a rational manner as opposed to, you know, because people's fears you're gonna you know run down the hall with purple crayons and ruin everything. of course not. People still need to use human judgment. in terms of a big company, I I really love this idea of of test kitchens. BBlitz JLink JOSH: There are some things we can't. Let's not break a regulatory burden. Let's not break the law. Of course not. But what about customer experience? You could you could play with that. What about the way you interview a job candidate? What about other settings? And so starting to look for areas where you can inject room for creativity in a you know a sort of a a rational manner as opposed to, you know, because people's fears you're gonna you know run down the hall with purple crayons and ruin everything. of course not. People still need to use human judgment. in terms of a big company, I I really love this idea of of test kitchens. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: You know, you think about a test kitchen, that's a common term in the food business. If you run a fancy restaurant, you're not gonna experiment with a new dish on a crowded Saturday night. You're gonna separately have a have a little kitchen set up and it's well equipped and you know the chefs can experiment in a safe controlled environment. Same type of thing. You know, if you're if you're a two hundred thousand person global organization, it would be irresponsible to be like, hey, I have an idea, dude. Let's just make a change and roll it out globally. Of course not. Instead, you know, could you curr you create your own little test kitchen which you've got some experimentation set up? BBlitz JLink JOSH: You know, you think about a test kitchen, it's a common term in the food business. If you run a fancy restaurant, you're not gonna experiment with a new dish on a crowded Saturday night. You're gonna separately have a have a little kitchen set up and it's well equipped and you know the chefs can experiment in a safe controlled environment. Same type of thing. You know, if you're if you're a two hundred thousand person global organization, it would be irresponsible to be like, Hey, I have an idea, dude. Let's just make a change and roll it out globally. Of course not. Instead, you know, could you curr you create your own little test kitchen which you've got some experimentation set up? BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: you BBlitz JLink JOSH: I mean experimentation is basically the antidote to to to innovation risk. And so you might say, okay, here's a bunch of ideas. They they make sense. Let's test them cheap and crude and fast, like 20 bucks in 15 minutes with one customer on a Tuesday afternoon. If it sucks, dump it. If it shows a little promise, don't go wild. Just double the size of the experiment. How'd that look? If it does, double it again. And so by the time you actually get to rolling something out globally, you've taken the vast majority of the risk off the table. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: I mean experimentation is basically the antidote to innovation risk. And so you might say, okay, here's a bunch of ideas. They make sense. Let's test them cheap and crude and fast, like 20 bucks in 15 minutes with one customer on a Tuesday afternoon. If it sucks, dump it. If it shows a little promise, don't go wild. Just double the size of the experiment. How'd that look? If it does, double it again. And so by the time you actually get to rolling something out globally, you've taken the vast majority of the risk off the table. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: No. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yes, yes, yes. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Yes. Yes. Yes. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: So I don't think the answer to being innovative is wild swings. Quite the opposite. You can take a very rigorous approach, and the the key to it is small crude experiments. And then as those show promise, just increase the fidelity of those experiments to the point where now you're ready to roll something out. You've got confidence it can. BBlitz JLink JOSH: So I don't think the answer to being innovative is wild swings. Quite the opposite. You can take a very rigorous approach. And the the key to it is small crude experiments. And then as those show promise, just increase the fidelity of those experiments to the point where now you're ready to roll something out. You've got confidence and conviction. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: And with BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: And with riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: that too, do you do you generally see it being most successful when people do those small rollouts with their best customers or with some subs with a subset of customers, right? We all have our sir our A customers who are the most important to us and we've got ones that are super important because they're our customer and we love them, but they're but they're not as consequential to the overarching business as the number one. Where do you sort of recommend companies play in that stack across the customer segmentation BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: that too, do you do you generally see it being most successful when people do those small rollouts with their best customers or with some subs with a subset of customers, right? We all have our sir our A customers who are the most important to us and we've got ones that are super important because they're our customer and we love them, but they're but they're not as consequential to the overarching business as the number one. Where do you sort of recommend companies play in that stack across the customer segmentation riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: It's not a BBlitz JLink JOSH: It's not a riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: with the BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: with the riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: hard and fast rule. I'm sure there's examples of all the above, Jeremy, but I always think about comedians. You know, if you're gonna film a Netflix special, you're probably not gonna try the bit out the first time. You're gonna try it out in a small comedy club in Wichita and see how it works. And if it works kind of there, maybe you try it in Philadelphia next, you know, and before, and so so you kind of work out the kinks. So generally speaking, and it's not a rule, there they're examples the other direction, you know, maybe you do some of those experiments in a lower stakes moment. For me, it's like I come up with tons of ideas and I try to say, okay, how can I test them? BBlitz JLink JOSH: hard and fast rule. I'm sure there's examples of all the above, Jeremy, but I always think about comedians. You know, if you're gonna film a Netflix special, you're probably not gonna try the bit out the first time. You're gonna try it out in a small comedy club in Wichita and see how it works. And if it works kind of there, maybe you try it in Philadelphia next, you know, and before and so you kind of work out the kinks. So generally speaking, and it's not a rule, there they're examples the other direction, you know, maybe you do some of those experiments in a lower stakes moment. For me, it's like I come up with tons of ideas and I try to say, okay, how can I test them? BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: I'm gonna home. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: With the least amount of risk. How can I lower the stakes instead of raise the stakes? And so by by the way, if you get if you have a perfect client and it works with that client, I'm not even sure how valid that data is because that the client might be a one-off specialty case anyway. So if you could try it in a more broad example, yeah, you can have higher, higher clarity. BBlitz JLink JOSH: With the least amount of risk. How can I lower the stakes instead of raise the stakes? And so by by the way, if you get if you have a perfect client and it works with that client, I'm not even sure how valid that data is because that the client might be a one-off specialty case anyway. So if you could try it in a more broad example, yeah, you can have higher, higher clarity. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: you riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: That's kinda what I was getting. They might be such yeah, they they might be so involved with your business that BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: That's kinda what I was getting. They might be such yeah, they they might be so involved with your business that BBlitz JLink GARY: Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Right. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: yeah yeah, that they're just gonna accept whatever you do 'cause they love you. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: yeah yeah, that they're just gonna accept whatever you do 'cause they love you. Sorry, I didn't mean cut you off, but yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: You're right. BBlitz JLink JOSH: You're right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Josh, one of the things that as a listener to jazz music, especially live jazz music, that I think about is probably true for jam sessions, but probably not true for brainstorming sessions is this kind of texture of fun. You're like, you know, when I when I see live musicians playing and they're in they've kind of garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Josh, one of the things that as a listener to jazz music, especially live jazz music, that I think about is probably true for jam sessions, but probably not true for brainstorming sessions is this kind of texture of fun. You're like, know, when I see live musicians playing and they're they've of BBlitz JLink GARY: cross into this kind of vibe. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: cropped into this kind of vibe. BBlitz JLink GARY: Th the just like expressing and kind of just having fun. When people I have jam sessions, when we're jamming, we're literally laughing. Like we're literally smiling. I can think of the last brainstorming session I've had at my company. No one was smiling. If there was no fun. How do you think it you know, s do I is my suspicion right that there's an ingredient of some type of fun or play or what have you that's important? garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: They're just like expressing and kind of just having fun. When people, I have jam sessions, when we're jamming, we're literally laughing. Like we're literally smiling. I can think of the last brainstorming session I've had at my company. No one was smiling. There was no fun. How do you think, know, do I, it's my suspicion, right? That there's an ingredient of some type of fun or play or what have you that's important BBlitz JLink GARY: in a creative garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: in a creative. BBlitz JLink GARY: thinking process. And then how do you inject that into these spaces that seem to be not or these meetings or, you know, important strategy sessions that tend not to be branded with like fun or kind of play. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: thinking process and then how do you inject that into these spaces that seem to be not, or these meetings or important strategy sessions that tend not to be branded with like fun or kind of play. BBlitz JLink JOSH: You're exactly right. And you look at these engagement studies, you know, whatever, twenty-two percent of people are engaged and the rest are actively disengaged. It costs the economy trillions of dollars. It shows up in low productivity, low output, high low morale, high turnover, all that. You know, there there's a real intrinsic reward in in in the expression expression of human creativity. It's one of the most rewarding things that we do. And and I think you're right. If you are if if it's if it's a grind and it sucks, you're probably some something is not. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: You're exactly right. And you look at these engagement studies, you know, whatever, twenty-two percent of people are engaged and the rest are actively disengaged. It costs the economy trillions of dollars. It shows up in low productivity, low output, high low morale, high turnover, all that. You know, there there's a real intrinsic reward in in in the expression expression of human creativity. It's one of the most rewarding things that we do. And and I think you're right. If you are if if it's if it's a grind and it sucks, you're probably some something is not. BBlitz JLink GARY: Run garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mmm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: clicking, not only that, you're not gonna get the best output from it. It's it's funny you said that, Gary, the word play. I've thought about this quite a bit. So when you're young, you go out to play. If you are an athlete, you play sports. I play music. Now contrast that to the word work, which sounds horrible. It's like you're trading your soul for money. And then and God forbid there be any intrinsic value in that. Don't have fun, don't smile, which is now and back to the the goal, I suppose, if if you're trying to bolt stuff on riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Clicking, not only that, you're not going to get the best output from it. It's it's funny you said that, Gary, the word play. I've thought about this quite a bit. So when you're young, you go out to play. If you are an athlete, you play sports. I play music. Now contrast that to the word work, which sounds horrible. It's like you're trading your soul for money. And then and God forbid there be any intrinsic value in that. Don't have fun, don't smile. Which is now and back to the the goal, I suppose, if if you're trying to bolt stuff on BBlitz JLink GARY: Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Right. Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Right. Right. BBlitz JLink JOSH: align and and and and maximize efficiency, maybe work is the right model. I don't know. But if you're trying to come up with net new ideas, if you're trying to win in the knowledge age where it's fluid and complex and volatile and competitive, I think the more play the better. I've often thought about swapping the word. Like, hey honey, I'm going out to play today instead of going off to work. Or like instead of working through a problem, what if you play through a problem? And and just even the swap of words, sort of giving people permission riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Align and and maximize efficiency, maybe work is the right model. I don't know. But if you're trying to come up with net new ideas, if you're trying to win in the knowledge age where it's fluid and complex and volatile and competitive, I think the more play the better. I've often thought about swapping the word. Like, hey, honey, I'm going out to play today instead of going off to work. Or like instead of working through a problem, what if you play through a problem? And and just even the swap of words, sort of giving people permission. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm, I'm just like garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mmm, whatcha say? BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: to have some intrinsic joy and laughter and be present and riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: To have some intrinsic joy and laughter and be present and and BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: and and savor the moment instead of dread the moment. And not only is it better to do as a human being, all the metrics that we care about actually are improved. In other words, it's not contrary to progress, it's an enabler of progress. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: and savor the moment instead of dread the moment. And not only is it better to do as a human being, all the metrics that we care about actually are improved. In other words, it's not contrary to progress, it's an enabler of progress. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. Mm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Totally. But Gary riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Totally. But Gary BBlitz JLink GARY: I love that because garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: I love that because BBlitz JLink GARY: one of the things that I know that Jeff Bezos has said about like his when he was CEO of Amazon, that he would never schedule work before ten. He would never have work meetings before ten AM, but he would play with kids his kids and read the paper, you know, have breakfast with his partner. But in that time he was puttering. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: one of the things I know that Jeff Bezos has said about like his, when he was CEO of Amazon, that he would never schedule work before 10. He would never have work meetings before 10 a.m., but he would play with his kids and read the paper, have breakfast with his partner. But in that time, he was puttering. BBlitz JLink GARY: around the the thing that he knew that he had to have a creative solution to because he kept saying in this interview that the hardest decisions in business are of taste, or are of gut. th they're not analytical. You know, it's it's not like some data is going to tell you what decision to like the hard decision to make. And so it's kind of interesting that he he didn't use that word play, Josh, but like as you described that, probably what he was doing garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: around the thing that he knew that he had to have a creative solution to, because he kept saying in this interview that the hardest decisions in business are of taste, are of gut. They're not analytical. know, it's not like some data is going to tell you what decisions are like the hard decision to make. And so it's kind of interesting that he, didn't use that word play Josh, but like, as you described that probably what he was doing. BBlitz JLink GARY: was what you just described to get to the creative solution that he needed to get to by the ten o'clock meeting. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: was what you just described to get to the creative solution that he needed to get to by the 10 o'clock meeting. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: I'm so glad you said that. BBlitz JLink JOSH: I'm so glad you said that. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: You ever hear someone like, I was on vacation and I came up with this killer idea. I was in the shower, I had an idea, or like I was on a walk in the woods. When was the last time you heard someone say, Okay, I'm at my desk, the fluorescent lights are beaming on me, I'm responding to email, answering a voicemail, responding to this problem, dealing, and boom, I'm hit with a lightning bolt of inspiration. Like said nobody ever. And I think there, you know, think about two modalities there there's heads down time. BBlitz JLink JOSH: You ever hear someone like, I was on vacation, I came up with this killer idea. I was in the shower, I had an idea, or like I was on a walk in the woods. When was the last time you heard someone say, Okay, I'm at my desk, the fluorescent lights are beaming on me, I'm responding to email, answering a voicemail, responding to this problem, dealing, and boom, I'm hit with a lightning bolt of inspiration. Like said nobody ever. And I think there, you know, think about two modalities. There's heads down time. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Never. No. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Never. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And th that's important by the way. We have to crank out our to-do list and like, yes. But but I think peop many people spend their entire work effort in heads down time. But that by definition means that you're not heads up. And so what you're describing with Bezos is maybe he gave himself a little heads up time, which allowed him to consider the bigger picture, let his mind wander or tinker a little bit. And and my point is they both have value. And let's not completely ignore the heads up time in favor of the heads down time, because then what do you get? You get a hopeless bureaucracy that doesn't ever innovate and ends up BBlitz JLink JOSH: And th that's important by the way, we have to crank out our to-do list and like yes. But but I think peop many people spend their entire work effort in heads down time, but that by definition means that you're not heads up. And so what you're describing with Bezos is maybe he gave himself a little heads up time, which allowed him to consider the bigger picture, let his mind wander or tinker a little bit. And and my point is they both have value. And let's not completely ignore the heads up time in favor of the heads down time, because then what do you get? You get a hopeless bureaucracy that doesn't ever innovate and ends up BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Totally. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. BBlitz JLink JOSH: as a tombstone. Like how's Panav Airline doing these days? I'm sure they were really good at heads down work. I'm sure Ozmobile was awesome at it, but how much heads up time did they have? riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: as a tombstone. Like how's Pan Am Airline doing these days? I'm sure they were really good at heads down work. I'm sure Osmobile was awesome at it, but how much heads up time did they have? BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. That's right. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: That's right. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Gary's heard me say this hundred times, but a few years ago I built an office in the woods, and I spend hours and hours and hours a week, inter spring, summer, fall, in the office in the woods. And I've got this deck on top so I can be outside looking at trees and hearing birds and this and other. And then I also have I've created this little office desk setup on one of my canoes. And so I'll go in the middle of a lake and I'll be on like Zoom conference calls on my iPad, you know, cellular client. You're doing anything from anywhere, but like working from riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Gary's heard me say this a hundred times, but a few years ago I built an office in the woods and I spend hours and hours and hours a week, inter, spring, summer, fall, in the office in the woods. And I've got this deck on top so I can be outside looking at trees and hearing birds and this and that. And then I also have I've created this little office desk setup on one of my canoes. And so I'll go in the middle of a lake and I'll be on like Zoom conference calls on my iPad, you know, cellular client. You're doing anything from anywhere, but like working from BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Thank BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Thank riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Outdoors working in the woods forces you to do to work differently first and foremost. and it force well forces me, I should say, to work differently, think differently. It also helps me to sort of focus my thoughts in a different way, right? So I find you can go tackle a hard business problem when you're in an unfamiliar sort situation because you're not being influenced by the same things you normally are being influenced by when you're in the conference room or you're in the office or you're sitting with your teammates or whatever else. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Outdoors working in the woods forces you to do to work differently first and foremost. and it force well forces me, I should say, to work differently, think differently. It also helps me to sort of focus my thoughts in a different way, right? So I find you can go tackle the hard business problem when you're in an unfamiliar sort situation because you're not being influenced by the same things you normally are being influenced by when you're in the conference room or you're in the office or you're sitting with your teammates or whatever else. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Okay. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: and Josh, you you know, maybe to segue from that thought into something that I've heard you talk about before. You know, you talk about this notion that you know, we have to outthink, not just outwork our competitors, right? And so, which is, you know, obvious, but outthinking is really difficult when you're actually trying to do it because we do spend so much in heads down execution mode, right? riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: and Josh, you you know, maybe to segue from that thought into something that I've heard you talk about before. You know, you talk about this notion that you know, we have to outthink, not just outwork our competitors, right? And so, which is, you know, obvious, but outthinking is really difficult when you're actually trying to do it because we do spend so much in heads down execution mode, right? BBlitz JLink GARY: yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmmmm BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah, interesting. So ha human creativity and AI. You have to have opinions. I have opinions. Gary has opinions. speaking of like working differently and thinking differently and heads up versus heads down, let's talk about AI as a amplifier or as a destroyer of value for human. Like where do you think we're going first and foremost? And how do you sort of encourage people to think about the benefits of working with our new robotic buddies? riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah, interesting. So ha human creativity and AI. You have to have opinions. I have opinions. Gary has opinions. speaking of like working differently and thinking differently and heads up versus heads down, let's talk about AI as a amplifier or as a destroyer of value for human. Like where do you think we're going first and foremost, and how do you sort of encourage people to think about the benefits of working with our new robotic buddies? BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Haha BBlitz JLink JOSH: I spent a lot of time and said the chat about that just real quick and in the previous one, Jeremy. I didn't realize you did the outdoor office and on a lake on the canoe. That's so freaking cool. And and I got to imagine that you know your your ideas flourish. Like you were you're out absolutely outthinking others. And then compare that to the typical sensory deprivation chamber that we call the modern day office. And so, you know, again, I just think as leaders, the more maybe you can't change your office, but you could take your team on a field trip. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: I spent a lot of time and said the chat about that just real quick and in the previous Jeremy. I didn't realize that you did the outdoor office and on a lake on the canoe. That's so freaking cool. And and I got to imagine that, you know, your your ideas flourish. Like you were you're out you're absolutely outthinking others. And then compare that to the typical sensory deprivation chamber that we call the modern day office. And so you know again, I just think as leaders, the more maybe you can't change your office, but you could take your team on a field trip. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: I love it. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Love it. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Thank you all. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And and so I think that we can take some of those matters into our own hands and that just the environment alone can spur fresh thinking. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: And so I think that we can take some of those matters into our own hands, and that just the environment alone can spur fresh thinking. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Okay, AI. I am a huge AI fan, as you know. I mean, I I'm a technology guy through and through. I love AI, amazing, awesome. But I think that the there's a role for AI and humans, and they're not the same. To me, the human needs to still be the artist. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Okay, AI. I am a huge AI fan, as you know. I mean, I'm a technology guy through and through. I love AI, amazing, awesome. But I think that the there's a role for AI and humans, and they're not the same. To me, the human needs to still be the artist. The word artist is kind of loaded. You think about someone painting on canvas and you have to be like smug or something. No, you don't. An artist is someone who is net new thinking, who can BBlitz JLink JOSH: word artist is kind loaded. You think about someone painting on canvas and you have to be like smug or something. No, you don't. An artist is someone who has net new thinking, who can BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: who can reimagine the possibilities, take things in un unexpected directions. And and and I at least AI today can can do that only when following a previous pattern, but they can't really discover net new art. And and also the thing that I find with AI, and you use the word taste already, which I'm really interested in you said that. I think AI can generate lots of ideas, but ultimately it doesn't, it lacks discernment. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Who can reimagine the possibilities, take things in unexpected directions. And I at least AI today can do that only when following a previous pattern, but they can't really discover net new art. And also the thing that I find with AI, and you use the word taste earlier, which I'm really interested in you said that. I think AI can generate lots of ideas, but ultimately it doesn't, it lacks discernment, BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: taste, which is again a human capability. So I think for anyone thinking about BBlitz JLink JOSH: Taste, which is again a human capability. So I think for anyone thinking about, BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Mm-hmm. Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: hey, how can I out-AI AI, you're you're never gonna do that. I'm not gonna my computational capacity is not gonna be as good. No way. But nor can AI out artist me or you or Gary or any of us, because that's what humans are. And so I think it's it's sort of the harmony between those. I wrote a piece years and years ago called What If Mozart had a Mac. And it you could apply the same to AI today. And the riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Hey, how can I out-AI AI? You're you're never gonna do that. I'm not gonna, my computational capacity is not gonna be as good. No way. But nor can AI out-artist me or you or Gary or any of us, because that's what humans are. And so I think it's it's sort of the harmony between those. I wrote a piece years and years ago called What If Mozart Had a Mac? And you could apply the same to AI today. And the BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm, mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mmm. Mmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: the thoughts of the piece was this: if if Mozart had a Mac, BBlitz JLink JOSH: The thoughts of the piece was this. if if Mozart had a Mac, a good use of that would be, well, now that he wrote hi an idea, you could have the Mac do the the grunt work. You could transpose the string parts into different charts, and instead of him spending hours of handwritten notation, that would be done. And maybe Mozart's body of work would have been tenfold. His impact would have been even more profound. Awesome. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: good use of that would be, well, now that he wrote an idea, you could have the Mac do the grunt work. It could transpose the string parts into different charts, and instead of him spending hours of handwritten notation, that would be done. And maybe Mozart's body of work would have been tenfold. His impact would have been been even more profound. Awesome. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: It's like BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: It's like BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, Josh, when they take Mozart to the mall and he goes to the music store. Do you guys remember the scene from this movie? God, Josh, you have to watch this because this happened, especially now that I know you wrote this article. So they kidnap Mozart. They bring him to the present. They go to the mall next to Santa Dimas High School, and he walks into a music store and he has this experience because there's keyboards and synthesizers everywhere. And so within ten minutes, BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, Josh, when they take Mozart to the mall and he goes to the music store. Do you guys remember the scene from this movie? God, Josh, you have to watch this because this happened, especially now that I know you wrote this article. So they kidnap Mozart. They bring him to the present. They go to the mall next to Santa Dimas High School, and he walks into a music store and he has this experience because there's keyboards and synthesizers everywhere. And so within ten minutes, BBlitz JLink GARY: I don't yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: I don't know what we are. BBlitz JLink GARY: That's right. Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: That's right. Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: He has set up this entire like wall of keyboards around him and he is just making music like it's never been before. So yes, totally. This is what he would do. Yeah, this is what we can right buddy, sorry. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: He has set up this entire like wall of keyboards around him and he is just making music like it's never been before. So, yes, totally. This is what he would do. Yeah, this is what we can do. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hehehehehe BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Really? riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Well, so here's here's BBlitz JLink JOSH: Well, so here's riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: the here's no not at all. That's fascinating. H here's the predicament. So what I just described and what you're describing is is called the good outcome. The artist is using technology as an accelerator of human art. The opposite, the inverse of that would be what if Mozart got lazy? What if Mozart said, well, the Mac can transpose? Maybe you could write a phrase for me. Maybe you could think of it through harmonic structure. It'd be like me writing my next book by saying to AI, go write my book for me. And would it would it have an output? Yes. Would it have artistic integrity? No. BBlitz JLink JOSH: the here's no not at all. That's fascinating. H here's the predicament. So what I just described and what you're describing is is called the good outcome. The artist is using technology as an accelerator of human art. The opposite, the inverse of that would be what if Mozart got lazy? What if Mozart said, well, the Mac can transpose? Maybe you could write a phrase for me. Maybe you could think of it through harmonic structure. It'd be like me writing my next book by saying to AI, go write my book for me. And would it would it have an output? Yes. Would it have artistic integrity? No. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm. Mm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And so in that example, back to Mozart, maybe his body of work would have been diminished a hundredfold. Maybe there'd be not an original thought and we wouldn't even know the name Mozart because he relied on the external mechanics to become an artist, which he was incapable of. And so I think for us as creators, and I think of all of us as creators, by the way, whether you're working on a company or running a team or or you know creating art of any kind, I think we should use it as a tool, not as a replacement. And if it's an accelerant tool to like I'm using it to help me do research, great. BBlitz JLink JOSH: And so in that example, back to Mozart, maybe his body of work would have been diminished a hundredfold. Maybe there'd be not an original thought and we wouldn't even know the name Mozart because he relied on the external mechanics to become an artist, which he was incapable of. And so I think for us as creators, and I think of all of us as creators, by the way, whether you're working on a company or running a team or or you know, creating art of any kind, I think we should use it as a tool, not as a replacement. And if it's an accelerant tool to like I'm using it to help me do research, great. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: thing. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: You riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Help BBlitz JLink JOSH: Help riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: help me, phenomenal. But but not actually be the one that brings art to the surface. And that's where I think the risk is going forward. And the the other way to look at it is the opportunity, is that for us to step into our humanity, let AI do the pain in the ass stuff, the messy, you the grunt work, but let's still then recapture that time to be an artist, not get lazy and let AI try to do that part for us. BBlitz JLink JOSH: help me, phenomenal. But but not actually be the one that brings art to the surface. And that's where I think the risk is going forward. And the the o other way to look at it is the opportunity, is that for us to step into our humanity, let AI do the the the the pain in the ass stuff, the messy, you know, the grunt work, but let's still then recapture that time to be an artist, not get lazy and let AI try to do that part for us. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: This is a cool topic too for lots of reasons because so very recently, and you know, very, very recently, as maybe yesterday before, some folks at OpenAI said, yeah, some engineers there said we're 80% of the way to AGI here at OpenAI, and we think that we're, you know, we're right around the corner. Which I take great offense to because there's no way that that we're there. Just it's impossible because the machines don't understand what it's like to live in the world yet. They will. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: This is a cool topic too for lots of reasons because so very recently, and you know, very, very recently, maybe yesterday before, some folks at OpenAI said, Yeah, some engineers there said we're eighty percent of the way to AGI here at OpenAI, and we think that we're, you know, we're right around the corner. Which I take great offense to because there's no way that that we're there. Just it's impossible because the machines don't understand what it's like to live in the world yet. They will BBlitz JLink GARY: Well that I love that. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: I love that. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: In five or ten or twenty years, but like not today. But to me, this is the this is the essence, right? Like whether a machine ends up being sentient and can do work or or can just do great work, there's a huge gap between doing great work, spitting out great work products, and and being and understanding the essence of a living thing, let alone a human being. AIs will never understand what it is to be a human. I can't understand what it's like to be either of the two of you. I just can empathize and generalize, right? Machines can never, and this is why I think. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: In five or ten or twenty years, but like not today. But to me, this is the this is the essence, right? Like whether a machine ends up being sentient and can do work or or can just do great work, there's a huge gap between doing great work, spitting out great work products, and and being and understanding the essence of a living thing, let alone a human being. Whereas AIs will never understand what it is to be a human. I can't understand what it's like to be either of the two of you. I just can empathize and generalize, right? Machines can never. And this is why I think. BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. Totally. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Sorry. BBlitz JLink GARY: yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: I'm riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: It's so important. I love how you talk about like humanity keeps the creative, keeps the human the essence in the work because that's our gift back to the thing we're creating. And the thing that we're creating to us is efficiency and speed and challenging our thoughts and helping us to correlate and coordinate and think. But but but but it can but it can't do that. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: It's so important. I love how you talk about like humanity keeps the creative, keeps the human the essence in the work because that's our gift back to the thing we're creating. And the thing that we're creating to us is efficiency and speed and challenging our thoughts and helping us to correlate and coordinate and think. But but but but it can but it can't do that. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-mm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: And and and Jeremy, garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: And Jeremy, BBlitz JLink GARY: to that point, like actually what Josh said, maybe think about whatever your profession, finding your artist in that profession. Like I was just thinking about I went far when Josh was talking, I went to thinking about my old career as a scientist. Right. And there's I mean, obviously with quantum, with AI, I mean we should be parsing through lots of disease fields to bringing cures to patients. Great. But garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: to that point, actually what Josh said, maybe think about whatever your profession, finding your artists in that profession. Like I was just thinking about, went far when Josh was talking, I went to thinking about my own career as a scientist, right? And there's, mean, obviously with quantum, with AI, I mean, we should be parsing through lots of disease fields to bring in cures to patients. Great. But BBlitz JLink JOSH: No. BBlitz JLink GARY: You know, as a scientist, I think you still have to figure out how to design an experiment. Even if there's like this mass of data that says this should work, one still has to design an experiment. And that is art, like how one designs an experiment and how they control different things to test something. And so I you know, I Josh, you know, based on what Jeremy said and what I was just kind of ripping on, like how do you think about like finding the art and whatever you're doing? And that might be garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: You know, as a scientist, I think you still have to figure out how to design an experiment. Even if there's like this mass of data that says this should work, one still has to design an experiment. And that is art. Like how one designs an experiment and how they control different things to test something. so I, know, I, Josh, you know, based on what Jeremy said and what I was just kind of ripping on, like, how do you think about like finding the arts and whatever you're doing? And that might be. BBlitz JLink GARY: really a human endeavor no matter how much AI we have. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: really a human endeavor no matter how much AI we have. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: You're speaking to my heart, man. That's exactly, exactly right. The you know, I've heard people say now recently that an MFA Master in Fine Arts is the new MBA. Because in in in old kind of, you know, MBA was like, how do you have understand these technical skills and apply these reasoning and analytical approaches? AI can probably do that better than all of us, by by the way, and it's only going improve. Yes, okay. But but but what what can't it do? That's the fundamental question we need to all be asking. Not what can it do, but what can't it do? And what it can't do is make meaning. BBlitz JLink JOSH: You're speaking to my heart, man. That's exactly, exactly right. The you know, I've heard people say now recently that an MFA Master in Fine Arts is the new MBA. Because in in in old kind of, you know, MBA was like, how do you have understand these technical skills and apply these sorts of reasoning and analytical approaches? AI can probably do that better than all of us, by by the way, and it's only going improve. Yes, okay. But but but what what can't it do? That's the fundamental question we need to all be asking. Not what can it do, but what can't it do? And what it can't do is make meaning. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Okay. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And empathize and have deep human connection. And the things, Jenny, you talk about being a sentient being. There may be, by the way, some form of sentience. That's a different conversation, but but at the level of humanity, I I don't see that emerging that that quickly. And I love, Gary, you're talking about is being an artist. because that's what that's where we're gonna differentiate and win. Not who can do the thing fastest and cheapest, is who can create the most interesting and compelling future, being an artist. And that could apply to scientific discovery or business or anywhere in between. It doesn't have to only be like music or startups. BBlitz JLink JOSH: And empathize and have deep human connection. And the things, Jeremy, you talk about being a sentient being. There may be, by the way, some form of sentience. That's a different conversation, but but at the level of humanity, I I don't see that emerging that that quickly. And I love Gary what you're talking about is being an artist. because that's what that's where we're gonna differentiate and win. Not who can do the thing fastest and cheapest, is who can create the most interesting and compelling future, being an artist. And that could apply to scientific discovery or business or anywhere in between. It doesn't have to only be like music or startups. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Totally. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: You good example back to jazz for a second. so John Coltrane, one of my all-time heroes, there is a song that he wrote called Giant Steps. And and I won't kick out onto too much, but but musical harmony follows kind of a pattern. Think about a clock. Like a clock goes from 12 to 1 to 2, it kind of goes in an air, you know. And that's generally how how harmony went. There was certain patterns. A C went to an F to a B flat to an E flat. There were certain patterns. So back to this clock, John Coltrane wrote this tune where it shattered the harmonic structure as BBlitz JLink JOSH: You a good example back to jazz for a second. so John Coltrane, one of my all-time heroes, there is a song that he wrote called Giant Steps. And and I won't geek out onto too much, but but musical harmony follows kind of a pattern. Think about a clock. Like a clock goes from 12 to 1 to 2, it kind of goes in an air, you know. And that's generally how how harmony went. There was certain patterns. A C went to an F to a B flat to an E flat. were certain patterns. So back to this clock, John Coltrane wrote this tune where it shattered the harmonic structure as BBlitz JLink GARY: yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay, I don't know. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Far as it could go. So instead of going like 12 to 1, it would go like 12 to 5 to 11 to 2, it like zigzagged all over the place. And when people saw it, it was so crazy. Like one of the person, Tommy Flanagan who played on that recording, stumbled through it. It was so provocative and weird. It became one of the most important pieces in jazz history. It's been the ringtone on my phone for 15 years. And it's sort of a constant reminder to me, and I think to all of us, that that real history makers, real legends, people that actually changed the world. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Far as it could go. So instead of going like 12 to 1, it would go like 12 to 5 to 11, the two, it like zigzag all over the place. And when people saw it, it was so crazy. Like one of the first people, Tommy Flanagan, who played on that recording, stumbled through it. It was so provocative and weird. It became one of the most important pieces in jazz history. It's been the ringtone on my phone for 15 years. And it's sort of a constant reminder to me, and I think to all of us, that that real history makers, real legends, people that actually change the world. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: RRRR BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: are not just following BBlitz JLink JOSH: are not just following garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: a pr prescripted approach, AI. They're having the artistic courage and and the tastemaking to try something radically new. And that's where I see AI really falling, at least in the next 10 years or so, and where we as humans can really shine. BBlitz JLink JOSH: a pr prescripted approach. AI. They're having the artistic courage and and the tastemaking to try something radically new. And that's where I see AI really falling, at least in the next 10 years or so, and where we as humans can really shine. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: That's right. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. Yeah, that's so brilliant. That's actually so brilliant. And I think this concept of you being of being okay with being more human in the age of AI is actually where the unique value is created. 'cause everything else is commoditized. Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Yeah, yeah, that's so brilliant. That's actually so brilliant. I think this concept of being being okay with being more human in the age of AI is actually where the unique value is created because everything else is commoditized. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Totally. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Totally. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Remember in Star Trek BBlitz JLink JOSH: Remember in Star Trek riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: there was Kirk and Spock and like the two of them together made the show, wasn't one or the other, and really required both of them? So I think about that as a good metaphor where where Spock is AI and Captain Kirk is the human. And and and it s Kirk didn't win because he could compute numbers faster than the logical Spock. He needed Spock, and that was really helpful. And Spock didn't understand the the the human drive and the irrational things that were illogical that also were important to winning those missions and making the show successful. Those two worked in harmony. BBlitz JLink JOSH: there was Kirk and Spock and like the two of them together made the show was it one or the other and really required both of them? So I think about that as a good metaphor where where Spock is AI and Captain Kirk is the human. And and and it S Kirk didn't win because he could compute numbers faster than the logical Spock. He needed Spock, and that was really helpful. And Spock didn't understand the the the human drive and the irrational things that were illogical that also were important to winning those missions and making the show successful. Those two worked in harmony. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: I riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: I garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: They weren't trying to beat each other. Good way for us to think about it. We're were you we as human beings are sort of Captain Kirk and let Spock be Spock. Don't try to outdo Spock. And Spock's not gonna outdo us. BBlitz JLink JOSH: They weren't trying to beat each other. Good way for us to think about it. We're we're we as human beings are sort of Captain Kirk and let Spock be Spock. Don't try to outdo Spock. And Spock's not gonna outdo us. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yes, Box your best buddy, yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yes, box your best buddy, yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: It's a great a garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: It's a great fantasy riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Totally. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Totally. BBlitz JLink GARY: fantasy series, right, Jeremy? garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: series, right, Jeremy? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: No, that's a science fiction series here. We've had Josh, sorry for context. We had an interesting conversation not riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: No, that's a science fiction series here. We've had a Josh, sorry for context, we had an interesting conversation not garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hehehehehe riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: too long ago about Star Wars versus Star Trek and why Star Wars is is you know, it's it's fantasy with spaceships versus Star Trek is more science fiction. So anyway. Love it. Well, speaking of science fiction, science fact, and fantasy, let's fantasize for a moment about cool things we could say about our experience in the boardroom. How's that sound? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: too long ago about Star Wars versus Star Trek and why Star Wars is is you know, it's it's fantasy with spaceships versus Star Trek is more science fiction. So anyway. Love it. Well, speaking of science fiction, science fact, and fantasy, let's fantasize for a moment about cool things we could say about our experience in the boardroom. How's that sound? BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: You BBlitz JLink GARY: Ha ha ha riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Right. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Should we BBlitz JLink JOSH: Right. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Should we should we should we try little boardroom blitz? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: should we should we try the little boardroom blitz? BBlitz JLink GARY: Initi garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Initiate BBlitz JLink GARY: the blitz initiate the blitz. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: the blitz. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: All right. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: All right. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Count me down, and I'll click it. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Count me down and I'll click it. BBlitz JLink GARY: I'm gonna do a I'm gonna do a cult train. Two, one, three, go. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: I'm gonna do a Coltrane. Two, one, three, go. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Okay. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Okay. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: All right, I love it. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: All right, I love it. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: All right. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: All right. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Well this this you can't use your own books for, Josh. What's one business book you actually finished and think everyone else should too? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Well, this this you can't use your own books for, Josh. What's one business book you actually finished and think everyone else should too? BBlitz JLink JOSH: yeah, there's there's a book by my friend Adam Grant, who's a warden professor and fellow Detroiter by the way, originally, called Think Again. And you know, a lot of things we talked about today really helping people rethink old approaches to discover new. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Yeah, there's there's a book by my friend Adam Grant, who's a warden professor, a fellow Detroiter by the way, originally, called Think Again. And you know, a lot of things we've talked about today really helping people rethink old approaches to discover new. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Great book. Cool dude, that's for sure. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Great book. Cool dude, that's for sure. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Very cool dude. I've not read the garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Very cool dude, I've not read the book I have to. BBlitz JLink GARY: book, I have to. Right. Josh, what's the most corporate BS phrase you've ever used in a meeting? And do you regret it? garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Right. Josh, what's the most corporate BS phrase you've ever used in a meeting and do you regret it? riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: What's this one say, Gary? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: What's this one say, Gary? riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Sure, I've used many and I regret them all. Because you know, it's it's a crutch, BBlitz JLink JOSH: Sure, I've used many and I regret them all. Because you know, it's it's a crutch, riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: yeah, obviously. You know, if you you know, you know, start saying things like synergy as written up on this card, that it's it's just a crutch. you know, it's funny, I I I like comedy of of all types, but but when when comedians overuse profanity, I think it's a crutch as opposed to like Jerry Seinfeld who can do it without saying a swear word and still be hysterical. So I think for us as leaders, it's to it's to not fall into those predetermined patterns and allow ourselves and our brains to think more uniquely. BBlitz JLink JOSH: yeah, obviously. You know, if you you know, you know, start saying things like synergy as written up on this card, that it's it's just a crutch. you know, it's funny, I I I like comedy of of all types, but but when when comedians overuse profanity, I think it's a crutch as opposed to like Jerry Seinfeld, who can do it without saying a swear word and still be hysterical. So I think for us as leaders, it's to it's to not fall into those predetermined patterns and allow ourselves and our brains to think more uniquely. BBlitz JLink GARY: I love synergy, by the way. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: I love synergy by the way. BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Thank BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Speaking of Jerry BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Speaking of Jerry Seinfeld, that's something you said a bit ago that I really appreciated, right? We test material in safe spaces, right? And one of the things I he I heard him speak years ago about his process and people were like, How come you're always so funny? How come every show you do is like hilarious in your way? And he's like, Well, because I've practiced in like every dive bar for the past six months across the country, walking in at two AM and practicing my set. That's how I do it, you know? And most of it's terrible and then the good stuff is what I s what what I keep. So riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Seinfeld and something you said a bit ago that I really appreciated, right? We test material in safe spaces, right? And one of the things I he I heard him speak years ago about his process and people were like, How come you're always so funny? How come every show you do is like hilarious in your way? And he's like, Well, because I practiced in like every dive bar for the past six months across the country, walking in at two AM and practicing my set. That's how I do it, you know. And most of it's terrible and then the good stuff is what I s what what I keep. So Love it. All right. Next one. Do do do. If corporate life were a reality show, what would yours be called, Mr. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Love it. All right. Next one. Doo doo doo. If corporate life were a reality show, what would yours be called, Mr. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: These are really good. I don't know enough reality shows, but maybe maybe mine would be Survivor, as you see your corporate survivor. But you know, like I've always taken the non-traditional path. I'm from Detroit, I'm not from either coast. I've always kind of blazed my own path. By the way, sometimes to my detriment, I failed and screwed up a bunch, just to be clear. I'm not saying that in a cocky way. and I feel like there's always this element like, okay, you're you're choosing the the the non-traditional approach. BBlitz JLink JOSH: These are really good. I don't know enough reality shows, but maybe maybe mine would be Survivor, as you see your corporate survivor. But you know, like I've always taken the non-traditional path. I'm from Detroit, I'm not from either coast. I've always kind of blazed my own path. By the way, sometimes to my detriment, I failed and screwed up a bunch, just to be clear. I'm not saying it in a cocky way. and I feel like there's always this element like, okay, you're you're choosing the the non-traditional approach, BBlitz JLink GARY: Ha riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Survivor. Yeah, yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Survivor. Yeah, yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Ha ha! riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: but it's up to you to figure it out. BBlitz JLink JOSH: but it's up to you to figure it out. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And so I'm constantly finding myself in these situations where you know the odds are against you and you're sharing staring up a a big sheet sheetrock cliff and you gotta find a way to get to the top and and sometimes it's risky and sometimes you stumble, but it's probably survived. BBlitz JLink JOSH: And so I'm constantly finding myself in these situations where you know the odds are against you and you're sharing staring up a a big sheet sheetrock cliff and you gotta find a way to get to the top and and sometimes it's risky and sometimes you stumble, but it's probably survived. BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Love it. Do you play would you play the guitar riff to the survivor song, I the tiger as you're as you're surviving in the boardroom? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Love it. Do you play would you play the guitar riff to the Survivor song, the Tiger as you're as you're surviving in the boardroom? BBlitz JLink JOSH: Probably need to do that more. Yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Probably need to do that more. Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: All BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: All right, la let's do one more and then we'll let you off the hook. Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: One more blitz, at least. BBlitz JLink GARY: One more blitz at least. All right. Come on AI, give us a good one. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: right, la let's do one more and then we'll let you off the hook. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: All right, come on AI, give us a good one. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: So Josh, if you could pick one generation to run your company for a year, who would you pick and why? garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: So Josh, if you could pick one generation to run your company for a year, who would you pick and why? BBlitz JLink GARY: Is there's a right answer to this? garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Is this a right answer to this? riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Yeah. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Mm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: There's the right answer. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: There's a right answer. BBlitz JLink JOSH: One generation riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: One generation. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Is there? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Is there? Is there? riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Is there? riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Well, BBlitz JLink JOSH: Well, it's funny because you know, if it's if it's a a a baby boomer, they may be in some cases a little aged out. If you know, it's someone could argue is is a is a kid too young. But if I was probably gonna pick one, it might be a gen alpha, which is the newest one. These are these are really young people that are in no position to run a company, but I think that they're more adept to technology, they're more adept to change, they're more adept to the modern world. One of the challenges, like I'm a gen Xer. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: it's funny because you know, if it's if it's a a a baby boomer, they may be in some cases a little aged out. If you know, it someone could argue is is a is a kid too young. But if I was probably gonna pick one, it might be a gen alpha, which is the newest one. These are these are really young people that are in no position to run a company, but I think that they're more adept to technology, they're more adept to change, they're more adept to the modern world. One of the challenges, like I'm a gen Xer BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah, yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: and and we can apply the thinking that we grew up with, that we're trained on. BBlitz JLink JOSH: And and we can apply the thinking that we grew up with, that we were trained on, to the current day, which sometimes of course is a big trap. And so I think that they may be more tuned to the current flow of things. Now, they might need some adult supervision, so it's a little bit of a trick question, but I would rather I think have modern thinking than than historical. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: to the current day, which sometimes of course is a big trap. And so I think that they may be more tuned to the current flow of things. Now, they might need some adult supervision, so it's a little bit of a trick question, but I would rather I think have modern thinking than than historical. BBlitz JLink GARY: U garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Okay. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmm. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: I love it. I don't BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: I love it. I don't disagree with that sentiment at all. yeah. Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: disagree with that sentiment at all. yeah. Yeah. BBlitz JLink GARY: and Jeremy, I I know this is garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: and Jeremy, I know this BBlitz JLink GARY: out of turn, but I you were mentioning your office inspiration space like in the woods, and what I was gonna add, was mine is actually candy stores. So so Josh, like I love going to a candy store and like I see something and it helps me with how do we sell this thing to this customer. I was curious, Josh, for you, is there a place that you try to put yourself into when you need to be a little bit more creative for for normal work? garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: is out of turn, but you were mentioning your office information space, like in the woods. And I was going to add, was mine is actually candy stores. So Josh, like I love going to a candy store and like, I see something and it helps me with how do we sell this thing to this customer? I was curious, Josh, for you, is there a place that you try to put yourself into when you need to be a little bit more creative for normal work? riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: But they are. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: with the bat. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Yeah, I'm I'm with Jeremy. I like I like strange places. So I mean nature is really big for me. I just love even if I get out and go for a walk, sometimes I'll have better answers than if I'm sitting here staring at a monitor. I love being in my in and around music. So if I can get into like a little jazz club vibe or something, that that's that's really helpful to me. real quick, I was in music school in Boston and I'm studying with this legendary guitar teacher named Nick Goodrick. And I was like plateauing, I was like kind of stuck on something. And he's like, BBlitz JLink JOSH: Yeah, I'm I'm with Jeremy. I like I like strange places. So I mean nature is really big for me. I just love even if I get out and go for a walk, sometimes I'll have better answers than if I'm sitting here staring at a monitor. I love being in in and around music. So if I can get into like a little jazz club vibe or something, that that's that's really helpful to me. real quick, I was in music school in Boston and I'm studying with this legendary guitar teacher named Nick Goodrick. And I was like plateauing, I was like kind of stuck on something. And he's like, BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mmm. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: I said, I don't know, I don't get past this, I'm kind of stuck. And he says, he says, you need you need to go feed the pigeons. And I was like, is that like an arpeggio? He's like, no, no, you need to go feed the pigeons. I'm like, that's a progressive harmonic structure where you're like, no, you need to go feed the pigeons. I'm like, I couldn't understand. He's Josh, go out and sit on a bench and feed the fucking pigeons. And I of course I was like all taken aback. And he and he did. He's listen, I'm not kidding. You need to get away from the work. And he's so I I he I listened to me. He's my my guru. So I went there and sat on a bench for a day and like feed the pigeons. BBlitz JLink JOSH: I said, I don't know, I don't get past this, I'm kind of stuck. And he says, He says, You need you need to go feed the pigeons. And I was is like an arpeggio? He's No, no, you need to go feed the pigeons. I'm like, that's a progressive harmonic structure where you're like, No, you need to go feed the pigeons. I'm like, I couldn't understand. He's like, Josh, go out and sit on a bench and feed the fucking pigeons. And I, of course, I was like all taken aback. And he and he did. He's Listen, I'm not kidding you, you need to get away from the work. And he's so I I he I listened to him. He's my my guru. So I went there and sat on a bench for a day and like feed the pigeons. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: HAHAHAHA riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And that was actually more productive than if I just sat there grinding away because it allowed me to tap in an external view, perhaps a little bit more of my own intuition as well. So I think getting away from the work is sometimes the most productive thing that we can do to advance the work. BBlitz JLink JOSH: And that was actually more productive than if I just sat there grinding away because it allowed me to tap in an external view, perhaps a little bit more of my own intuition as well. So I think getting away from the work is sometimes the most productive thing that we can do to advance the work. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hehehehehe BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmm. Mm-hmm. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. How about? What about that? garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Mm. Love that. Love that. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Amen. So, Josh, riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Amen. So Josh, BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: we could talk all day. We could steal all your time, and I would like to, but I'm also cognizant of the fact that you're giving us so much. Can I ask you one more question and then we and then we we can let's get about the rest of your day? Or maybe we'll squeeze a second in. So we haven't talked much about your experience with Mudita as an investor, and we could have a whole other session. Maybe we will one of these days have a whole other session about your views on entrepreneurs and the journey with venture and stuff like that. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: we could talk all day. We could steal all your time and I would like to, but I'm also cognizant of the fact that you're giving us so much. Can I ask you one more question and then we and then we we can let's get about the rest of your day? Or maybe we'll squeeze a second in. So we haven't talked much about your experience with Mudita as an investor, and we could have a whole nother session. Maybe we will one of these days a whole other session about your views on entrepreneurs and the journey with venture and stuff like that. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Course. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Course. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: But I am curious, based on the fact that we've had so many wonderful thoughts shared today about this notion of being creative and artistic in what we do, do you think there's something that some investors miss or misunderstand about creative founders that you see maybe in different ways that that that either give you a leg up and or just help you to identify with the the founders that you're funding more more easily? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: But I am curious, based on the fact that we've had so many wonderful thoughts shared today about this notion of being creative and artistic in what we do, do you think there's something that some investors miss or misunderstand about creative founders that you see maybe in different ways that that that either give you a leg up and or just help you to identify with the the founders that you're funding more more easily? riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Yeah, I do. I've so our our firm is called Mudita, as you mentioned. In case someone doesn't know that word, that's a Sanskrit term, which means taking joy in other people's success. And that was a very intentional choice. We we really wanted to to launch companies that are net positive to the world and we want to support entrepreneurs. And and so it's not just much like a a slogan, it's we're trying to live that way. We're trying to walk the planet with that intention of of lifting people up, not not kind of kicking people down. Where I think many venture folk get it wrong is that they are financiers rather than builders. And so BBlitz JLink JOSH: Yeah, I do. I've so our our firm is called Mudita, as you mentioned. In case someone doesn't know that word, that's a Sanskrit term, which means taking joy in other people's success. And that was a very intentional choice. So we really wanted to launch companies that are net positive to the world and we want to support entrepreneurs. And so it's not just much like a slogan, it's we're trying to live that way. We're trying to walk the planet with that intention of of lifting people up, not not kind of kicking people down. Where I think many venture folk get it wrong is that they are financiers rather than builders. And so BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: No. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: They're BBlitz JLink JOSH: They're riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: thinking their job is to control and command and governance as opposed to enable the creative expression of a company, which is tricky and messy and there's gravitational force. So I think if people follow traditional financiers playbook, they will almost lose every time. Like it's not it's not a recipe for entrepreneurial success. It is a recipe for managing a bank, but not starting a tech company. BBlitz JLink JOSH: thinking their job is to control and command and governance as opposed to enable the creative expression of a company, which is tricky and messy and there's gravitational force. So I think if people follow traditional financiers playbook, they will almost lose every time. Like it's not, it's not a recipe for entrepreneurial success. It is a recipe for managing a bank, but not starting a tech company. And so a lot of times those those venture investors aren't operators, nor have they ever been. And so they're they think a good use of meeting is like, hey, let's review your budget and riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: And so a lot of times those those venture investors aren't operators, nor have they ever been. And so they're they think a good use of meeting is like, hey, let's review your budget and BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: how come we're gonna spend this much money on paper clips in three years from now? And that's missing the point. I I think my view, well, it's one person's opinion, is that our job as an investor is to be a catalyst to creative expression and to helping them figure out a new path, not try to replicate some old path. And so to do that, I think it requires supporting them from a mindset standpoint that they that we we got their back, both when they BBlitz JLink JOSH: How come you're gonna spend this much money on paper clips in three years from now? And that's missing the point. I I think my view, well, it's one person's opinion, is that our job as an investor is to be a catalyst to creative expression and to helping them figure out a new path, not try to replicate some old path. And so to do that, I think it requires supporting them from a mindset standpoint, that they that we got their back, both when they riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: succeed and when they stumble. It's about giving them the tools and access that they need that can be that can be a BBlitz JLink JOSH: succeed and when they stumble. It's about giving them the tools and access that they need that can be that can be riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: a complement to their trajectory. It's maybe using some pattern recognition to say, hey, you're about to step in a hole that I broke my leg on four years ago. And how about you just take one step to the left and you'll avoid that? You know, so helping them, we're sharing our own setbacks and struggles. It's not to be some holier than thou, wag your finger, point out the flaws kind of thing, which I think venture many venture people do. The other thing is that they tend to look at deals instead of saying BBlitz JLink JOSH: complement to their trajectory. It's maybe using some pattern recognition to say, hey, you're about to step in a hole that I broke my leg on four years ago. And how about you just take one step to the left and you'll avoid that? You know, so so helping them we're sharing our own setbacks and struggles. It's not to be some holier than thou wag your finger, point out the flaws kind of thing, which I think venture many venture people do. The other thing is that they tend to look at deals instead of saying, BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Okay. BBlitz JLink JOSH: well, it's never been, they they're they're the re rear view looking, not forward looking. you know I started my first company riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Well, it's never been. The re rear view looking, not forward looking. I started my first company and we we were building websites and and it was 1995. And so if if the sorry it was my second company. If if you if you have if you looked at the data, that'd be a terrible business. There's no market for websites, no one's buying websites. The data would say, don't do it. I think many venture people would look like you're going after a small t target market, nobody's doing this, it's a stupid thing. No. Where a smart investor, in my opinion, would have been to say, BBlitz JLink JOSH: And we we were building websites and and it was nineteen ninety-five. And so if if the sorry it was my second company. If you if you have if you looked at the data, that'd be a terrible business. There's no market for websites, no one's buying websites. The data would say don't do it. I think many venture people would look like you're going after a small t target market, nobody's doing this, it's a stupid thing. No. Where a smart investor, in my opinion, would have been to say, doesn't matter where it's been, it's where it's going. And and you could didn't take a genius to figure out that everyone's gonna need a website. And how about you start a website company today? riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Doesn't matter where it's been, it's where it's going. And you couldn't take a genius to figure out that everyone's going to need a website. And how about you start a website company today riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Thank BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: for the very reason that there's not a lot of existing customer base because there's about to be. So that that's my beef, I think, with many venture folks. They're a bit hurt mentality. They're looking for confirmatory rather than innovation. And I think they actually can subdue or be the wet blanket on on real creative expression rather than be the encouragement. BBlitz JLink JOSH: for the very reason that there's not a lot of existing customer base, because there's about to be. So that that's my my beef, I think, with many venture folks, the they're a bit hurt mentality, they're looking for confirmatory rather than innovation. And I think they actually can subdue or be the wet blanket on on real creative expression rather than be the encouragement riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Ajá. BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. Mm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmm. BBlitz JLink JOSH: of. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah, I agree. Builders bankers, right? Builders not bankers. Set you apart. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah, I agree. Builders not bankers, right? Builders not bankers. Set you apart. BBlitz JLink GARY: Mm-hmm. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: and BBlitz JLink GARY: I that just garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: That BBlitz JLink GARY: that deserved a snap, I'm sorry. That that that was what I want to express after that. Absolutely love that. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: deserved a snap, I'm sorry. That was what I wanted to express after that. Absolutely loved that. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Well, Josh Linkner, man, thank you so, so, so, so very much for taking time and hanging out with us today. This has been so much fun. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Well, Josh Linkner, man, thank you so, so, so, so very much for taking time and hanging out with us today. This has been so much fun. BBlitz JLink GARY: Thank you, Josh. But garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Thank you, Josh. BBlitz JLink GARY: but Jeremy, we don't know his favorite jazz artists. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: But Jeremy, we don't know his favorite jazz artist. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: well, Coltrane, one of them. But okay, before we go then I guess i is there anyone greater than Coltrane in your mind? BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: well, Coltrane, one of them. But okay, before we go then I guess i is there anyone greater than Coltrane in your mind? BBlitz JLink GARY: Okay. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Okay. BBlitz JLink JOSH: That I mean it's it's hard to pick one. I mean, cold cold chain would be, if not the top right at the top of the list. I'm a huge fan of Miles Davis, I'm a huge fan of Dizzy Gillespie, I'm a huge fan of Wes Montgomery on guitar and and in. So to me it's not, you know, that you're talking about reality shows and there's like a winner and not a winner. I I think it doesn't have to be that way. It's certainly in jazz. And I think all those people left a mark, an indelible mark. And I think by the way, you know, now as we think about ourselves as business leaders, could say the next generation of jazz musicians, next generation of business leaders, same thing, riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: That I mean it's it's hard to pick one. I mean, cold Colchain would be, if not the top, right at the top of the list. I'm a huge fan of Miles Davis, I'm a huge fan of Dizzy Gillespie, I'm a huge fan Wes Montgomery on guitar and and and so to me it's not you know that you're talking about reality shows and there's like a winner and not a winner. I I think it doesn't have to be that way, certainly in jazz. And I think all those people left a mark, an indelible mark. And I think by the way, you know, now as we think about ourselves as business leaders, could say the next generation of jazz musicians, next generation of business leaders, same thing. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Yeah. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Thank you. BBlitz JLink JOSH: which is riverside josh linkner raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0061: Which is not to replicate like I I shouldn't try to be John Coltrane. I should learn and and honor and celebrate his foundation and take it to my own next conclusion as an artist. And I hope that the folks listening to this program do exactly the same. So to both of you, thanks for not only hosting me, it's an honor to be with you, but but thanks for creating this to help people in their own artistic pursuits. BBlitz JLink JOSH: Not to replicate like I I shouldn't try to be John Coltrane. I should learn and and honor and celebrate his foundation and take it to my own next conclusion as an artist. And hope that the folks listening to this program do exactly the same. So to both of you, thanks for not only hosting me, it's an honor to be with you, but but thanks for creating this to help people in their own artistic pursuits. BBlitz JLink GARY: Yeah. garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Hmm. BBlitz JLink JEREMIE: Well thanks, Josh. Absolutely. riverside jeremie bacon raw video cfr boardroom blitz 0063: Thanks, Josh. Absolutely. BBlitz JLink GARY: Thanks, garry cooper 035b0baa 4e1d 4b53 b02d CFR: Thanks guys.