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Riz Ahmed channels Yann Mounir Demange in DAMMI · MUBI Podcast

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[Rico] Heads up audio listeners,you're about to hear a videotaped conversation.For the full experience you'll find the video version of this episodeon Spotify or YouTube. I just wanted to tell you, so I'm going through your bio prepping for this, I'm looking at my page here because I wrote it down and I'm looking at your bio and it's like, like on Wikipedia and it's like 2006 was in a Michael Winterbottom movie, nominated for best actor of the 2008 British Indie film awards.
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Stars in the great satire Four Lions, by the way, which I love 2010 gets another BIFA nomination, blah, blah, blah, decade of major credits.
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Then in 2016
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appears in <i: Star Wars>Rogue One gets a Best Newcomer nomination at the Empire Film Awards.
0:47
appears in <i: Star Wars>You've been working for like a decade at that point, getting major nominations.
0:50
appears in <i: Star Wars>Tell me about when you learn, you've been nominated for Best Newcomer.
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appears in <i: Star Wars>[Riz] Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, man.
0:56
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know what I mean?
0:57
appears in <i: Star Wars>If I... listen, I'm hoping to get another Best Newcomer nomination at some point soon, man.
1:02
appears in <i: Star Wars>I'm hoping to get a debut nomination at some point.
1:05
appears in <i: Star Wars>If you can trick people into thinking you're not damaged goods,- staying on the shelf- [Yann laughs] then lets take it mate! I'm hoping I get discovered at some point.
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appears in <i: Star Wars>[MUBI Podcast theme][Rico] That is actor Riz Ahmed and director Yann Mounir Demange.And honestly,they're in no danger of being considered damaged goods.Riz got an Oscar nomination for Best Actor in the drama Sound Of Metal,he rode shotgun with Jake Gyllenhaal in the sleeper hit Night Crawlerand he'll be in Wes Anderson's next flick.Yann directed '71 a war film about the Troubles in Northern Irelandthat landed him Best Director at the British Indie Film Awards.He was an exec producer and director of the celebrated UK crime series Top Boyand the zombie satire Dead Set.
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appears in <i: Star Wars>But these guys latest collaboration seems way more personal and harder to pin down.Half truth, half fictionand just nineteen minutes long.I'm Rico Gagliano, welcome back to the MUBI podcast.The show that tells you the stories behind great cinema.Season six is coming soon, but today a special episode,my chat with Yann Mounir Demange and Riz Ahmed about their new short Dammi.It's a psycho-drama about a half Algerian guyplayed by Riz, raised in London by his momwho visits his birth city of Paris to come to terms with his estranged dad,his identity,and the city itself.All of which sounds a lot like Yann's own life.In fact, he gave Riz's character his own Algerian name.So I started by asking if he'd ever thoughtabout just making it a documentary? At the beginning, it was going to be a documentary.
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appears in <i: Star Wars>- Oh, it was?
2:42
appears in <i: Star Wars>- It was.
2:43
appears in <i: Star Wars>But it wasn't-- the subject wasn't gonna be me.
2:45
appears in <i: Star Wars>And I approached a very dear friend of mine, Rosa Attab she's French Algerian woman, and she's like a real, a true artist.
2:54
appears in <i: Star Wars>And we started to ask like"Would you like to collaborate with me on this documentary,"hybrid documentary that I'm doing?" And she's like, "Yeah." And then when I arrived to Paris to start, like, prepping it and building out the idea with her, she said, "Look, I hope you don't mind,"but I took the liberty of writing a voiceover"just as... just to see if it sparked something." And she cheekily wrote a voiceover...
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appears in <i: Star Wars>about me.
3:17
appears in <i: Star Wars>Wow.
3:19
appears in <i: Star Wars>So she, she wanted you to make it about yourself.
3:21
appears in <i: Star Wars>Yeah, she did. And I was a little bit like, wow.
3:24
appears in <i: Star Wars>OK, let me take a beat with this, see how I feel.
3:28
appears in <i: Star Wars>And then I started to write a voiceover back and it became a dialogue between this man and this woman.
3:33
appears in <i: Star Wars>It became a dialogue between Rosa and me and then it became something else, because there's an element of fiction as well there, it's not completely just autobiographical piece of work.
3:44
appears in <i: Star Wars>But my father is actually the guy who plays my dad in the film.
3:47
appears in <i: Star Wars>We're gonna get to that! Don't you worry.
3:49
appears in <i: Star Wars>It's unavoidably a very personal... element.
3:52
appears in <i: Star Wars>All of that being said, that there are surreal elements, there are fictional elements.
3:56
appears in <i: Star Wars>There is, I mean, there's a character named you who's in there that is to some extent based on you.
4:01
appears in <i: Star Wars>When do you decide that Riz Ahmed is gonna be your perfect avatar?
4:06
appears in <i: Star Wars>Once I started to lean in to...
4:10
appears in <i: Star Wars>making it very more personal, I felt vulnerable and I was like, the only person...
4:16
appears in <i: Star Wars>that I feel comfortable doing this with, if I'm gonna do it, is Riz.
4:21
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, we've been very close friends for a very, I mean, it's gotta be 20 years, now.
4:26
appears in <i: Star Wars>Yeah, the BBC was putting together a kind of like cohort of up and coming writers, directors and actors in London.
4:34
appears in <i: Star Wars>And they had an idea of launching almost kind of like a YouTube, a series of YouTube characters and make like following these characters lives and it, the project never really happened, but they just kind of gathered a room of people together who were kind of coming up at the same time.
4:51
appears in <i: Star Wars>And we met there briefly and then two years later we did Dead Set together in like, 2007.
5:00
appears in <i: Star Wars>And yeah, we just became fast friends at that point.
5:02
appears in <i: Star Wars>So you get the call and it's like, basically"Riz I got this part for you, it's me."- Well--- Tell me about that.
5:10
appears in <i: Star Wars>As you can tell, I mean, Yann even now, I think you're...
5:12
appears in <i: Star Wars>you're hesitant to frame it as though it's you, and I think that that's because in a way it isn't, you know, this is the nature of fiction and of like, you know, narrative storytelling particularly that takes on this kind of magical realist element that you have.
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appears in <i: Star Wars>Like the DNA and the soul of this character is from Yann's experiences.
5:29
appears in <i: Star Wars>Of course, there's an element of like, you know, catharsis and personal exploration in this.
5:34
appears in <i: Star Wars>But as is true of any film, of any story, it takes on a life of its own as well.
5:39
appears in <i: Star Wars>And...
5:40
appears in <i: Star Wars>it was almost about, you know, knowing Yann, knowing some of his experiences, but also having some of my own experiences around you know, diasporic identity and a love letter to a city that you feel is home, but also feel like you don't belong in, you know, this is the kind of this is the water we swim in.
6:02
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, this is what we know about this experience.
6:05
appears in <i: Star Wars>[Muffled plunging][Riz's character, muffled]Yes, I'm a Londoner.I like being a Londoner.
6:12
appears in <i: Star Wars>But it's complicated.Something is always gonna be missing there.It's like pieces of me are scattered.It's just in London, I can get caught in the noise of it all. I can pretend everything's fine.
6:24
appears in <i: Star Wars>Over here, it's rubbed in my face.
6:28
appears in <i: Star Wars>That...
6:29
appears in <i: Star Wars>something's missing.
6:33
appears in <i: Star Wars>I feel like I read this somewhere that you didn't realize until recently that all of your movies are about outsiders basically, or something like that.
6:41
appears in <i: Star Wars>Yeah, I think...
6:42
appears in <i: Star Wars>yeah, I mean... yeah! It's like, you know, you do, you don't know what it's about.
6:47
appears in <i: Star Wars>And then you, you gotta do press for a movie and you start to get your titbits together and what's your chat?
6:52
appears in <i: Star Wars>And you kinda go, and I went, oh right, there was the whole decade of work for me that was about young men trying to find their place, trying to find their tribe.
7:02
appears in <i: Star Wars>But ultimately having to come to terms with being a perpetual outsider and being...
7:06
appears in <i: Star Wars>and having comfort in that and actually walking, being your own man at the end, that is literally what '71 is about, you know, he decides, he leaves the army.
7:13
appears in <i: Star Wars>He's not going to try and find the tribe.
7:15
appears in <i: Star Wars>He was deeply-- all these boys have been seeking the paternal at this point, in my films, I can't deny it.
7:20
appears in <i: Star Wars>So maybe this was like a sort of full stop on it and I just went straight...
7:25
appears in <i: Star Wars>at the whole paternal issue.
7:28
appears in <i: Star Wars>Finally, what I wanna ask you, 'cause one of the reasons you were picked for this was because that you could relate to that.
7:34
appears in <i: Star Wars>And you do, like a lot of your work too is about identity and people trying to find identity in a society that maybe you don't somehow fit in.
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appears in <i: Star Wars>When did that start being a passion for you?
7:45
appears in <i: Star Wars>Because it really, it feels like pointed choices at a certain point in your career.
7:49
appears in <i: Star Wars>Yeah, it's interesting you say that because...
7:52
appears in <i: Star Wars>I feel like a lot of creative choices aren't choices that they choose you.
7:57
appears in <i: Star Wars>I never really sat down and said I want to make a project about identity or I want my career to be kind of exploring these themes in a similar way that, you know, you're talking to Yann right now.
8:09
appears in <i: Star Wars>He's saying I didn't set out to make a film about myself.
8:12
appears in <i: Star Wars>I think often the most honest pieces of art are ones that, kind of, find a way of manifesting themselves through you even while you're kicking and screaming to like, keep them down.
8:24
appears in <i: Star Wars>So if you ask me, honestly, would I love to have a career that didn't deal with all these kind of issues of identity and kind of what it is to be Muslim in the West and all this kind of stuff?
8:37
appears in <i: Star Wars>I mean...
8:38
appears in <i: Star Wars>I mean, yeah, that sounds like fun too.
8:40
appears in <i: Star Wars>I mean, I grew up watching, you know, Bollywood and Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee, those weren't political films.
8:45
appears in <i: Star Wars>It's just that in a way I just feel like I don't have, I don't have a say in it.
8:49
appears in <i: Star Wars>And you know, sometimes yes, you, you swim with that tide and you think, yeah, this is what I wanna do.
8:56
appears in <i: Star Wars>Sometimes you swim against it. At a certain point you just kind of surrender and say like this is just the thing that's just happening.
9:03
appears in <i: Star Wars>And I guess on some level, you know, my creative spirit needs to...
9:11
appears in <i: Star Wars>- explore this stuff.
9:11
appears in <i: Star Wars>- [Rico] Yeah, sure.
9:12
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, and my conscious kind of mind doesn't really have a say in the matter.
9:17
appears in <i: Star Wars>That's just the way it is.
9:17
appears in <i: Star Wars>It's a weird thing, you know?
9:19
appears in <i: Star Wars>That's really well put.
9:19
appears in <i: Star Wars>I love genre...
9:22
appears in <i: Star Wars>And I, you know, a lot of, sort of...
9:25
appears in <i: Star Wars>big films and influential films in my life actually, have been genre films.
9:29
appears in <i: Star Wars>But what, I love genre when it's layered with a specificity.
9:33
appears in <i: Star Wars>Where the characters and the human beings at the heart of these stories, there's an undeniable specificity and culture that they're from things that they are wrestling with within the thriller if you like.
9:45
appears in <i: Star Wars>And that's, that is actually whenever I come to a genre piece, I get sent stuff, usually that's the thing I inject into it.
9:52
appears in <i: Star Wars>I like the shape of, I like the shape of the movie or the shape of the story.
9:56
appears in <i: Star Wars>And then it's like, ok, what's the specificity, what's the thing, the point of view or the human being that I want to portray in the heart of this story?
10:03
appears in <i: Star Wars>And then I inevitably, not by choice there's these things that I project onto 'em that you know, that are about identity and things.
10:11
appears in <i: Star Wars>So it's not-- I wouldn't, I would never set out to make a film about identity.
10:14
appears in <i: Star Wars>Like I said, I think it's better served in a podcast or an essay and there's fantastic literature around that now, thank God.
10:20
appears in <i: Star Wars>But it's, when I tackle a story that sort of genre or a horror, whatever it may be and I can't help myself.
10:27
appears in <i: Star Wars>Let's talk about something very personally you brought to this, you mentioned it earlier.
10:31
appears in <i: Star Wars>Your dad, who you cast as your dad.
10:35
appears in <i: Star Wars>First of all, tell me about the conversation with him about doing that.
10:38
appears in <i: Star Wars>I mean, look, it's wild. I never speak-- yeah, but, yeah, my old man's in it.
10:42
appears in <i: Star Wars>Me and my old man were pretty estranged, you know.
10:48
appears in <i: Star Wars>It's, it was a strange one, I never really met until I was in my teens and then found out I had another brother from a different mother who's only about six months apart. And I started developing this story with Rosa and then, and it was about a Paris that I saw growing up fragments of, that I could see slightly disappearing.
11:05
appears in <i: Star Wars>And after the pandemic, there was a massive drop off, these old bars, they call them chibani that this old Algerian owned bars that were just frequented by a certain generation of Algerian men who are now like in their seventies who came to Paris and they, they created their own sense, these communities and they were quite, they were like, like a particular type of bar, you know, they, they drink, they gamble, they do deals.
11:32
appears in <i: Star Wars>And I grew up, my dad always had bars and whenever I'd go to Paris, I'd go to these bars.
11:36
appears in <i: Star Wars>So when I was starting to engage with this, making it more personal, and I was writing these characters, there's a type of older Algerian man that you don't see anymore.
11:46
appears in <i: Star Wars>And when I was trying to cast it.
11:47
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, you have...
11:47
appears in <i: Star Wars>these types of men will never come to a street casting session.
11:53
appears in <i: Star Wars>Not with a gun to their head would they'll come?
11:54
appears in <i: Star Wars>Would they do it.
11:55
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, you can't street cast this type of man.
11:58
appears in <i: Star Wars>And in the end, Rosa was like,"You gotta ask your father." I was like, "You're out of your mind." Like I don't, I didn't, I was like...
12:04
appears in <i: Star Wars>So seriously, because you couldn't get anyone else.
12:06
appears in <i: Star Wars>I couldn't, honestly, I couldn't find anyone.
12:08
appears in <i: Star Wars>We were like, no, this is not real, this is not real.
12:10
appears in <i: Star Wars>So I ended up casting him and his best friend.
12:12
appears in <i: Star Wars>They got, he's got this friend that a sidekick that he's, they've been best friends for 50 years.
12:17
appears in <i: Star Wars>I think they've never gone more than two days without seeing each other.
12:20
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, live close to each other in Paris.
12:22
appears in <i: Star Wars>When they go back to Algeria every summer, they're like, they're walking distance from each other in Algeria.
12:26
appears in <i: Star Wars>And I was like, you know what, you know, I approached him and he loved it.
12:28
appears in <i: Star Wars>He was, he was...
12:31
appears in <i: Star Wars>he was very moved.
12:33
appears in <i: Star Wars>And then this crazy thing happened and it wasn't planned, you know, I started to have a dialogue on screen with my dad through Riz.
12:40
appears in <i: Star Wars>Like, Riz...
12:42
appears in <i: Star Wars>you know, I'd set up a scene and I'd say to Riz go in there and tell him what an arsehole he is.
12:47
appears in <i: Star Wars>He'd go in and shout at him and I'd see him and I'd see my dad taking it and then I'd go maybe, like, soften it, maybe comfort.
12:53
appears in <i: Star Wars>And then so like there was this, they have a...
12:54
appears in <i: Star Wars>they have a hug and they scream at each other...
12:58
appears in <i: Star Wars>and...
12:59
appears in <i: Star Wars>it's, and it's all through Riz and it feels like my...
13:03
appears in <i: Star Wars>my father and I finally had a conversation but you know, I was watching it take place on the monitor.
13:09
appears in <i: Star Wars>I had heard about this.
13:11
appears in <i: Star Wars>What is, tell me about that experience from your point of view.
13:14
appears in <i: Star Wars>How aware were you that, that...
13:17
appears in <i: Star Wars>dynamic was going on?
13:18
appears in <i: Star Wars>That you were the cipher kind of between?
13:20
appears in <i: Star Wars>Yeah I mean, I knew that Yann and his father kind of spent long periods of time where they were estranged.
13:26
appears in <i: Star Wars>I knew that it was a kind of like budding and relatively kind of new relationship and that this film was kind of helping to catalyze that.
13:33
appears in <i: Star Wars>I guess in a way, you know, all that was in the air, I didn't intellectualize too much.
13:39
appears in <i: Star Wars>And in a way, you know, what's...
13:42
appears in <i: Star Wars>amazing about the, the best directors is how little they actually need to communicate.
13:48
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, because of the environment they're creating on the set, you know, just because of the design of the space itself, there's something just very kind of, like ethereal and haunting about being in that studio space where we were shooting full of smoke with the kind of the kind of classic sh...
14:06
appears in <i: Star Wars>you know, benches and lamp lights and maps, maps that you have of Paris that you find on Parisian streets and the, the pinball machine and the bar of those, exactly, those kind of old Algerian bars you have.
14:20
appears in <i: Star Wars>And yet there's a certain kind of music that Yann's playing on set and it's lit in a certain way.
14:26
appears in <i: Star Wars>And with that, in that kind of set up, in that kind of, with the right kind of casting, the right kind of set, the right kind of atmosphere.
14:34
appears in <i: Star Wars>I remember, like, Willem Dafoe actually said this in an interview once, where it was basically like you create the world, everything will flow from it.
14:42
appears in <i: Star Wars>If you make it feel to the actor, like this is a world that you're inhabiting then, like, it just happens.
14:46
appears in <i: Star Wars>Is that what you're going for?
14:48
appears in <i: Star Wars>Like, are you, do you think of yourself as a world builder?
14:50
appears in <i: Star Wars>I guess in a way?
14:51
appears in <i: Star Wars>I... no, but, but yes, I guess now like hearing it articulated.
14:56
appears in <i: Star Wars>That's, I don't like to intellectualize it when I'm on the set.
14:59
appears in <i: Star Wars>To a certain extent, yes, I like to create an atmosphere, a sense of the world, A feel. It's a feeling, it's a vibe.
15:07
appears in <i: Star Wars>And then I have a strong sense of what I would like it to be, but I don't try and dictate because frankly I want everyone's good ideas.
15:17
appears in <i: Star Wars>I want to create an environment where, you know, there's a specificity that's undeniable.
15:22
appears in <i: Star Wars>There is a world that they, they have to inhabit.
15:25
appears in <i: Star Wars>And once they're inhabiting it, you know, it's about their instincts.
15:29
appears in <i: Star Wars>Both of you, interestingly, as I was looking into it, I knew that you have this kind of separate musical career, almost, parallel musical career.
15:37
appears in <i: Star Wars>You actually were, it sounds like pretty heavily involved in garage and kind of electronic music, and that whole scene.
15:46
appears in <i: Star Wars>Is that maybe something that you guys share in terms of, you know, a communication through music, like, is that why you can play together, in a way?
15:55
appears in <i: Star Wars>Well, yeah, first we call it garage.
15:59
appears in <i: Star Wars>No, it's alright. I said 'garage' once and my niece was like, "You what?" I think that the kind of music you're talking about there is just kind of in the...
16:06
appears in <i: Star Wars>it's just in our bloodstreams from growing up as Londoners.
16:09
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, we grew up in the era of jungle music which transforms to drum and bass and then it gives birth to garage.
16:16
appears in <i: Star Wars>And then from there it goes into dubstep and grime and...
16:20
appears in <i: Star Wars>and now we're in a kind of drill era and UK rap is kind of rising and it's a beautiful thing to see.
16:25
appears in <i: Star Wars>And I think that's just kind of like part of what we've grown up around.
16:31
appears in <i: Star Wars>How that...
16:33
appears in <i: Star Wars>affects our kind of cinematic tastes or choices.
16:36
appears in <i: Star Wars>I don't know, it's maybe, a...
16:37
appears in <i: Star Wars>whereas kind of UK, kinda whereas kind of American kind of hip hop culture is kind of derived from like jazz and soul there's a kind of smoothness and a swing to it.
16:50
appears in <i: Star Wars>I feel like that UK you know, Black music culture, you know, that I'll call it, it is kind of like about syncopation.
17:01
appears in <i: Star Wars>And it has a kind of like...
17:05
appears in <i: Star Wars>'off' kind of kilter, two-step to it.
17:10
appears in <i: Star Wars>I would say it kind of has edges to it.
17:13
appears in <i: Star Wars>In a different way. If you listen to UK rap music and the flows in that, it has a kind of edge to it.
17:19
appears in <i: Star Wars>If you listen to the British accent the way we don't, you know, it's not 'water' it's water.
17:24
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, the kind, of the...
17:27
appears in <i: Star Wars>the cozy edges of things have been kind of shaved off in the music that we've grown up around.
17:32
appears in <i: Star Wars>It's kind of trying to catch you off balance?
17:34
appears in <i: Star Wars>Yeah. And so I guess maybe on some level,[Yann] It's fascinating to hear him say this.
17:37
appears in <i: Star Wars>- Sorry?
17:37
appears in <i: Star Wars>- [Yann] It's fascinating.
17:39
appears in <i: Star Wars>Yeah, so I guess on some level the maybe, the films that we like, it's about...
17:45
appears in <i: Star Wars>yeah, there's an element of kind of syncopation, surprise, has a kind of bite to it.
17:52
appears in <i: Star Wars>I think there's a kind of bite to the music that we've grown up around and maybe we enjoy that in our films.
17:56
appears in <i: Star Wars>- I like it!- Yeah.
17:57
appears in <i: Star Wars>I mean, I don't know, yeah, I don't know how...
18:01
appears in <i: Star Wars>it works in relation to the stuff I've done apart from Top Boy because there was a hot specificity around that.
18:06
appears in <i: Star Wars>- [Rico] Yeah, right.
18:06
appears in <i: Star Wars>- And the sound and the feel of it.
18:09
appears in <i: Star Wars>But, yeah, music, I mean, it's the highest art form, isn't it? Like it is...
18:14
appears in <i: Star Wars>it's the one, isn't it?
18:14
appears in <i: Star Wars>Like my mother has dementia.
18:16
appears in <i: Star Wars>She's in and out of moments of lucidity.
18:16
appears in <i: Star Wars>But if you put a certain track on it pierces through everything.
18:23
appears in <i: Star Wars>And there's something about...
18:25
appears in <i: Star Wars>you know, music without a doubt has influenced me the most in my life.
18:30
appears in <i: Star Wars>It's also given me, in that, on that theme of being an outsider seeking tribe, the rave scene of the nineties and early 2000s in London, a very specific thing that I feel very privileged to have been a part of.
18:48
appears in <i: Star Wars>You know, the jungle and the garage scene.
18:51
appears in <i: Star Wars>It gave us, it was our church, you know, and actually there was a feeling of community and togetherness and connection- [Strings rising]- "God as a DJ".
19:01
appears in <i: Star Wars>...that came from it.
19:02
appears in <i: Star Wars>God's a bad boy DJ,[All laugh] The remix artist.
19:06
appears in <i: Star Wars>[MUBI Podcast theme]Yann Mounir Demange and Riz Ahmed.Their short Dammi is playing exclusively on MUBI worldwide.and in some countries, we've got other great films from these guys too.Check the show notes of this episode for details.Also in the notes you'll find a link to the song I refer to at the end there, God is a DJ by Faithless.
19:25
appears in <i: Star Wars>Get Ready to dance like it's 1998.Meanwhile, let's roll credits.This episode was written and hosted by me Rico Gagliano.Ciara McEniff produced italong with Ibti Omer, Ilyass Malki, along with Stu Pot Productions.It was edited by Sean Holdsworth and Amos Levin.Our theme music is by Yuri Suzuki.The show is executive produced by me along with Jon BarrenecheaEfe Çakarel, Daniel Kasman, and Michael Tacca.We're signing off for the summer but stay tuned this fallfor season six that dives into horror.Till then safe travels and may all your cinemas be air conditioned.[Theme reaches conclusion]