Latest / Ridiculous History / IP, Part Two: The Baffling World of Trademarks

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IP, Part Two: The Baffling World of Trademarks · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: for joining us. Let's hear it for the Man, the myth,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the super producer, mister Max Williams.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Oh Man, You're.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: Right, guys, ready to get intellectual and with a bunch
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: of our property today.
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  Speaker 1: I guess, hey, hey, I will trade some marks. They
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: call me, Ben Bullen. Who is that Dulcet music made? Man,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: it's mister Noel Brown.
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  Speaker 4: Ben, you are still my beating heart. That's the kind
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  Speaker 4: thing I've heard all week.
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  Speaker 2: And I mean that.
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  Speaker 4: You know what I think of whenever I think of
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  Speaker 4: intellectual property, what's that? I'm a child, we know people
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: often shorten it to I P and then I my
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: mind goes back to childhood of that old joke I
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  Speaker 4: P freely you know them?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I got you. I always think of IP Man
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: because of the Kung Fu films, right yeah, when I
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: was I was watching those the first time. As uh
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: as our regular podcast reviews indicate, I am still learning
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: this language English. Uh. When I when I first tuned
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: in to IP Man, I thought it was IP Man,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: and I thought free Man. I thought it was going
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: to be about a very different kind of heroes.
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  Speaker 4: Patent lawyer perhaps the dullest action picture of all time
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: just gets into it, right, and why don't we get
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  Speaker 4: into Yeah, that's.
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  Speaker 1: What we're doing. We're getting into it. This is part
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  Speaker 1: two of a continuing series. Thanks to our research associate
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  Speaker 1: Max here. As you know, folks, we have been gathering
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  Speaker 1: together specific assets for a heist on ridiculous history. We're
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  Speaker 1: very excited to introduce you further to our twenty twenty
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  Speaker 1: five crew. IP is something that perplexes and fascinates so
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  Speaker 1: many people, and a lot of the rules and policies
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  Speaker 1: and history of IP as a concept intellectual property. As
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  Speaker 1: you said, nol, they are indeed ridiculous. So this is
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  Speaker 1: part two in a continuing series. We teased it a bit.
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  Speaker 1: We previously explored the origins of the idea of owning
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  Speaker 1: an idea that's intellectual property. And now we're talking trademarks, man,
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  Speaker 1: just do.
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  Speaker 2: It, yeah for sure.
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  Speaker 4: And I personally have always somewhat been baffled by the
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  Speaker 4: difference between a trademark, a copyright, a patent, a brand,
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  Speaker 4: and the fact of the matter is they're all intrinsically
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  Speaker 4: kind of interrelated, but yet they have their own specific
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  Speaker 4: sort of umami's, each one of them on their own.
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  Speaker 4: Today we are talking about the idea of a trademark.
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  Speaker 4: So I mean, I think what this episode is going
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  Speaker 4: to serve as is going to be sort of a
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  Speaker 4: good primer on a lot of this stuff, and then
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  Speaker 4: we're going to come at you shortly after, maybe not
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  Speaker 4: the next exact episode, but I think two episodes down
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  Speaker 4: the road with a really interesting case of trademark infringement
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  Speaker 4: and a storied lawsuit that went on for decades between.
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  Speaker 2: Apple Computers and the Beatles.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, from earlier. So this is how we're going to proceed,
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  Speaker 1: Similar to our earlier explorations of patents. We need to
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  Speaker 1: define the thing we are looking into, and we can
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  Speaker 1: define a trademark in a very silly dare I say,
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  Speaker 1: ridiculous way thanks to the USPTO. Their full name when
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  Speaker 1: they're in trouble is the United States Patent and Trademark Office.
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  Speaker 4: A bunch of scamps over there at the USPTU. I know, irascibles,
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  Speaker 4: even rascals, and they define the term trademark as is
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  Speaker 4: their craft, their wheelhouse.
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  Speaker 2: They want to do.
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  Speaker 4: As any word phrase symbol, design, or a combination of
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  Speaker 4: these things that identifies your goods or services. It's how
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  Speaker 4: customers recognize you in the marketplace and distinguish you from
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  Speaker 4: your competition.
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  Speaker 1: Which is great because I was listening back to an
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  Speaker 1: earlier episode where we had a slight riff on things
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  Speaker 1: that are technically trademark infringement. You know, air Jorbans shout
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  Speaker 1: out to everybody who heard me just a few minutes
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  Speaker 1: ago say just do it. That is a Nike trademark
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  Speaker 1: along with a swoosh, a.
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  Speaker 2: Douche trans morphers I think came up as well the
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  Speaker 2: idea of a mockbuster. Ben.
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  Speaker 4: I just have to add you mentioned a slight riff
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  Speaker 4: that we did. I think most of our rifts are
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  Speaker 4: pretty slight, and I'm cool with that.
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  Speaker 1: I'm alright with it. I think we've got I think
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  Speaker 1: we had a lot more on the horizon for that one.
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  Speaker 1: But we did have to actually do our show because
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  Speaker 1: otherwise it would just be you and me hanging out
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  Speaker 1: and say saying stuff like bogots instead of gobots.
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  Speaker 4: Right, yeah, and I think you know your results may
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  Speaker 4: very ridiculous. The story as to whether you think our
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  Speaker 4: rifts are slight or eternal.
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  Speaker 1: The USPP are still learning English, thank you.
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  Speaker 2: So.
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  Speaker 4: The USPTO also says that the purpose of a trademark
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  Speaker 4: is the following to identify the source of your goods
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  Speaker 4: or services, one which in and of itself has a
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  Speaker 4: super interesting historical precedent. And also to provide legal protection
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  Speaker 4: for your brand too, and finally, to help you guard
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  Speaker 4: against counterfeiting and fraud.
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  Speaker 1: Three. Technically, I would say that's two B. But whatever,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we're not in these meetings with these folks.
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  Speaker 1: Why true, ben, they are very similar. Why is a
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  Speaker 1: patent different from a trademark? What makes a squid not
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  Speaker 1: an octopus but still a cephalopod? Unlike the concept of
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  Speaker 1: the patent, the concept of a trademark is less rigorously defined.
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  Speaker 1: So if we go back to our Patent and Trademark
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  Speaker 1: office friends, they will tell us.
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  Speaker 2: Quote.
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  Speaker 1: A common misconception is that having a trademark means you
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  Speaker 1: legally own a particular word a phrase and can prevent
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  Speaker 1: others from using it. However, you don't have the rights
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  Speaker 1: to the word or phrase in general, only to how
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  Speaker 1: that would or phrase used with your specific goods and services.
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  Speaker 1: And it goes on. But let's allide this real quickly.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that quote, by the way, came from our pal
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  Speaker 2: Charles Dickens.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you. I will accept my baftap with grace
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  Speaker 1: and won't make the speech too long. So the idea
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  Speaker 1: here is really tricky. You could, for instance, this is
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  Speaker 1: a fun, fun little story. You could, for instance, trademark
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  Speaker 1: the concept of home on a social media platform. That's
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  Speaker 1: exactly what Mark Zuckerberg did. But you can't own the
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  Speaker 1: word home, right. You could say you can own it
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  Speaker 1: for very specific for like a narrow scope of industry,
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  Speaker 1: if you have a the our patent office folks, and
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  Speaker 1: thank you again, Chuck Dickens, our patent office folks. Say
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  Speaker 1: you could, for example, use a logo as a trademark
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  Speaker 1: for let's say your small woodworking business. You'll witling in corpentine,
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  Speaker 1: and you can. You can have a little symbol, you
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  Speaker 1: can have a little phrase you can't stop other people
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  Speaker 1: from like if you have a log and then a
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  Speaker 1: thumbs up like an AX that is also a thumbs
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  Speaker 1: up in the blog.
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  Speaker 2: For a logo for woodworking bed.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, thanks man, and this I got a million ideas, right,
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  Speaker 1: but I've only got these two hands.
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  Speaker 2: You are what they call an idea man with two hands?
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  Speaker 1: Is that true? So this doesn't mean that someone else
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  Speaker 1: can't have a logo that looks very similar if they
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  Speaker 1: are not in the woodworking industry. Like what if they
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  Speaker 1: just sell thumbs ups.
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  Speaker 4: Exactly, just like as a service, you pay them and
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  Speaker 4: they issue you one rousing thumbs up yeah or whatever
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  Speaker 4: you did.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it's just like an ata boy for hire.
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  Speaker 1: I like that.
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  Speaker 2: That's idea.
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  Speaker 1: That's all cow.
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  Speaker 2: I should write this down. It's like a task rabbit
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  Speaker 2: for good vibes.
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  Speaker 4: You know, somebody comes over and pats you on the
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  Speaker 4: back and tells you you're doing a good job.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're in an awkward social event for any
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  Speaker 1: of our introverts in the crowd. And you imagine you
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  Speaker 1: could hire someone who just drops in, pats you on
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  Speaker 1: the back and hands you with thumbs up, and it's
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  Speaker 1: like a right, and then whoa, I gotta go.
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  Speaker 4: This was great with no context whatsoever, no now or
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  Speaker 4: we're doing this, no question about it. The thing about trademarks, however,
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  Speaker 4: is is it's kind of to your point, really all
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  Speaker 4: about how you use it and for how long and
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  Speaker 4: with what level of specificity. There's another common misconception, which
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  Speaker 4: is the belief that choosing a trademark that simply describes
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  Speaker 4: your good or service is all there is to it.
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  Speaker 1: Eh.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not the case. It requires. I mean, well, okay,
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  Speaker 2: this is more of a strategy thing, I guess right.
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  Speaker 4: But what a good trademark really needs is to have
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  Speaker 4: a novel component to it, to be in.
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  Speaker 2: Some way creative and easy to discern.
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  Speaker 4: That's why we talk about famous trademarks, you know, things
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  Speaker 4: like the swoosh, the aforementioned swoosh and known. Walmart just
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  Speaker 4: recently did a rebrand where they basically took their logo,
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  Speaker 4: which is kind of like an asterisk on a light
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  Speaker 4: blue background, and they just kind of turned on the
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  Speaker 4: bold setting and made the background a little darker blue.
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  Speaker 4: But you could argue that that is a meaningful change,
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  Speaker 4: probably got someone paid a whole lot of money, and
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  Speaker 4: that that logo, however simple, is associated exclusively with something
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  Speaker 4: like Walmart for the purposes of retail.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so shout out or tip of the cap
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  Speaker 1: to target. I love that you're pointing out the tech industry.
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  Speaker 1: Those properties are very big with this stuff, Apple, Microsoft, Google,
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  Speaker 1: all the hits. Also, as you mentioned Walmart Lego. They're
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  Speaker 1: super deep in trademarks, right, I think we're supposed to
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  Speaker 1: call them lego bricks.
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  Speaker 4: It's so weird not to mention the fact that a
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  Speaker 4: unique and creative trademark is a whole lot easier to
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  Speaker 4: protect in court and to defend that. Someone else definitely
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  Speaker 4: was trying to dilute my brand by using something that
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  Speaker 4: is very much associated.
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  Speaker 2: But there also can come a point where that can hurt.
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  Speaker 4: You be so famous that people just use your thing
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  Speaker 4: as a stand in for lots of things. And we're
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  Speaker 4: going to get into that too and introduce you all
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  Speaker 4: to a really cool new word.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, get know our patent in trademark buddies are saying
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  Speaker 1: the words creative and unique and effective and easier, And
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  Speaker 1: I would add to that specificity, that's really what they're arguing.
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  Speaker 1: To your point, Noel, if you had, you know, like
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  Speaker 1: teenage mutant, ninja turtles, that's a very specific concept, you
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  Speaker 1: know what I mean. That's not just a stylized check
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  Speaker 1: mark on a sporting shoe.
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  Speaker 2: They combined four whole things.
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  Speaker 4: They're teenagers, their mutants, they're ninjas, and yes they're turtles,
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  Speaker 4: which is you.
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  Speaker 2: Know, arguably unique.
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  Speaker 4: But then on the other hand, it'd be pretty easy
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  Speaker 4: just to change the turtles to like raccoons toys instead
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  Speaker 4: of ninjas.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe they're chefs or syamurai. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Also, it's a better example, thank you, much much better example.
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  Speaker 4: But it just shows how tricky navigating this whole idea
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  Speaker 4: of trademarks can be.
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  Speaker 1: I love the idea too. I'm picturing this as a
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  Speaker 1: moment in the Ridiculous History cinematic universe. The bedraggled mayor
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  Speaker 1: of New York City or insert city here is yelling
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  Speaker 1: at one of his aides or the chief of police
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  Speaker 1: and is saying, you're telling me there are mutant ninja
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  Speaker 1: turtles fighting crime is vigilantes in our city, and the
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  Speaker 1: police chief says it's worse than that's or their teenage.
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  Speaker 2: Oofs are the worst. That's no good, no doubt.
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  Speaker 4: But those particular teenagers, I think, you know, while getting
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  Speaker 4: into little punch ups between them, they.
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  Speaker 2: Had good hearts.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed. And this is also sort
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  Speaker 1: of a sideline shout out to our good friend Nick Benson,
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  Speaker 1: who just is absolute gaga over tn mt Ooh.
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  Speaker 4: I'm glad you you did really well with that. I
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  Speaker 4: would have muddled those letters all up. So you can
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  Speaker 4: establish rights to your trademark simply by using it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that act.
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  Speaker 4: Alone, while giving you some level of protection, it does
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  Speaker 4: limit that protection only to a very specific geographic region
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  Speaker 4: that you are operating in as a business providing your
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  Speaker 4: goods and or services.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So if you want stronger protections, the argument goes here,
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  Speaker 1: in the United States, you will want to register your
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  Speaker 1: trademark with this branch of the government or with this
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  Speaker 1: department of the government.
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  Speaker 4: It's kind of similar to copyright law in that technically
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  Speaker 4: you get copyright protection the moment you create a unique work,
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  Speaker 4: but if you don't actually get it copywritten or registered,
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  Speaker 4: you know, like with the Library of Congress or whatever,
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  Speaker 4: then it's easier for someone to.
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  Speaker 2: Challenge you on that claim.
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  Speaker 4: By these days, with computers, you could certainly submit a
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  Speaker 4: digital file that you've created with a timestamp, and you
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  Speaker 4: could technically prove that you did it first. With trademarks,
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  Speaker 4: it's even a little more kind of muddled up and confusing.
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  Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, you are not required to register
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  Speaker 1: your trademark. There is no legal compulsion to do so
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  Speaker 1: here in the US. However, you just made the excellent
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  Speaker 1: astute point Noal. The primary advantage here for a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people in registration is that timeline. It is setting
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  Speaker 1: that chronology in place and on record. That's why a
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  Speaker 1: registered trademark gives you more rights and more protection than
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  Speaker 1: an unregistered one. Without getting into the weeds too far,
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  Speaker 1: we can see the tendency already. If you have a
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  Speaker 1: very small woodworking business with a thumbs up axe going
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  Speaker 1: through it, and you only work in this one specific
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  Speaker 1: part of Montana or North Dakota, you're probably good to go.
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  Speaker 1: But as your business grows and as more and more
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  Speaker 1: eyes are upon you, you might get some copycats. And that's
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  Speaker 1: where you want to consider registering on a federal level,
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  Speaker 1: which means that you will have nationwide enforceable rights. Maybe again,
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  Speaker 1: it's pretty muddy.
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  Speaker 4: And just to once again give a shout out to
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  Speaker 4: all of our pals at the United States Patent and
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  Speaker 4: Trademark Office, a lot of this excellent information comes directly
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  Speaker 4: from them, which I would argue would be probably the
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  Speaker 4: best primary source on this subject, because you know, you
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  Speaker 4: literally have to register it with them.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is where we get to that fun
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  Speaker 1: little symbol. It's a tiny it's a tiny capital R
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  Speaker 1: in a circle, which means registered, and you can use
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  Speaker 1: that symbol to let the public know that this is
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  Speaker 1: your trademark. So you could, for example, say shoe feet,
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  Speaker 1: you know, registered trademark, and people would be like, why
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  Speaker 1: did you spend so much time then working on shoes
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  Speaker 1: that look like feet? Why would you want people to
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  Speaker 1: pretend they're barefoot? And to that, I would say, this
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  Speaker 1: conversation is over.
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  Speaker 2: Time as well as should be.
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  Speaker 4: You are to be the last word on shoe feet,
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  Speaker 4: So I have to say I do not trust anyone
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  Speaker 4: that wears those toe shoes.
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  Speaker 2: I don't find them reprehensible.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, like I said this in early recording with you,
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  Speaker 1: but like our old pal Caudle Byrne often says, it
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: solves a problem I don't have.
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  Speaker 4: Also true, And just to add a little bit of
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: quick clarity, you may have also seen that subscript of
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: TM that can be slapped on there by anybody, because
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  Speaker 4: that represents an unregistered trademark.
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  Speaker 2: Whereas the R has a lot more oomped to, it
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  Speaker 2: has a lot more weight. It can only be used
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  Speaker 2: legally by the owner or licensee of a registered trademark,
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  Speaker 2: and can only be used in the region where that
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: trademark is registered.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so at this point we're giving you the broad
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: strokes of how this works as a concept.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I was around of the broad struck side.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yes, so you saw ip Man as well.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: So that's a that's an ip Man move. Uh No,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe we get to the the history, because it may
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: surprise a lot of our fellow ridiculous historians to learn
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: that this is a very old idea, so old in
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: fact that we're not sure when it began.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: It's got ancient historical precedents.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, thousands of years millennia. Cast your memory back there,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: as Van Morrison used to say, Uh, well did he?
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know that one?
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: He said, cast your memory back there. Lord, it's a
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: brown eyed girl. It's in that he says it. In
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: that song.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: My god.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: I do have to say, man, I heard that song
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: out in the world the other day and I commented
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: to the friend I was with that I really hate
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: that song.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: Ye.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Do you like any Van Morrison songs?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, I absolutely do.
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: That one in particular, though, has just been done so
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: to death that it doesn't sit well with me.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: I just never need to hear it again.
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: But on the other hand, Hotel California stoked every time
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: it comes up. Not sure why I feel so differently
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: about these two very overplayed songs.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but here we are.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Also, you know, there are more brown eyed girls alive
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: today than there are hotels in California, so that might
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: be part of it.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Definitely, don't bother fact checking that.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: I'd be pleased. Do I think my presence on the
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: spectrum is working?
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: There? Put your money or your mouth? Is I like it? So?
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, Look, let's go to our friends at the World
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Intellectual Property Organization or WEEPO. I don't know if they
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: think that's as funny as.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: We do, but if you choose, you could pronounce it.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there you go.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: You want to make out the voice? Got to do
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: the voice.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: You gotta do the voice. So trademarks, as our friends
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: of Whippo say, they do date back for millennia, but
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: we cannot currently date their origins with precision. And they're
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: talking about identification marks and the dude, they go so
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: deep into this. Can you give us a quote from
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Whippo directly?
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Boy? Can I ever?
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: Whippo says the following Some of the earliest forms of
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: identification of Marx date from prehistory. For instance, the Lascal
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: Cave paintings in France show bull drawings with marks on them.
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: Experts believe that people were using personal marks to claim
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: ownership of livestock long before literate societies. By the way,
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: Ben just got to interject here, that's also where the
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: idea of.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Brands comes from.
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: You know, you're branding something by literally burning a signature
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: mark of some kind into it with a hot iron
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: so that people know that it's yours, or people know
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: where it came from, which is another reason why it's
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: often a little bit confusing those differences and connections between
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: trademarks and brands.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, don't touch that cow. That's
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: square circle, triangle, wavy line cow. Yeah. So this dates back,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: this practice of branding. I love your point there, Noel,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: This dates back about fifteen thousand years ago minimum. We
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: also show we also see rather that in the world
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: of Egyptian masonry. In ancient Egypt six thousand years ago,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: you could see stonecutters branding their stuff, you know, like, hey,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: this part of the pyramid, this block is from me Jeremy.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Just the super common name in.
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: Egypt mega common and a fine name, I might add,
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: and zipping a little bit forward in time to the
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: Middle Ages, trades people often used signs and marks to
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: distinguish goods, and this practice was sort of expanded to
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: become a mark of quality of certain goods and services.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's very effective for human psychology back then
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: as it is today. Right, we see that a trademark
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: exerts a lot of power on a consumer, right, the
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: idea being, what's our old troope. You get what you
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: pay for, right, So you may pay a little bit
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: more for the thing with the insignia you like, but
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: what you're really buying into is quality and durability. So
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: that's why you see water marks on fancy paper, that's
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: why you see I'll say it, that's why you see
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: insignia and branding on cars.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: One hundred percent.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: And while you might pay less for like a Pento,
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: it's not going to last you as long as say
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: a BMW.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah or Nova no Va. That's a joke. That's a
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: joke for is.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: That a car joke? I don't think I got I
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: think that went went over my head.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Nova means doesn't go ah, So Anyway, the evidence suggests
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: the very first piece of what we will call modern
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: trademark legislation, or the precedent of that, was passed in
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: England all the way back in twelve sixty six under
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: the reign of a guy named Henry who was the
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: third Henry and king of that tribal organization at the time.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, King, our short King Henry the third.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure what is how it was, but it
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: was a set of rules that were codified called the
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: assize of bread and when you see it on paper,
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: if you're a child like like we are, you'll you'll
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: dinner and ale.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Sorry, the ass size of bread and ale. Guys, I
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: gotta look up the word ass size. I need not
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: know this one is about.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: It's a decree or an edict or it's a judicial inquest.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: It's also hilarious because it is one space away from
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: being peak comedy.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Oh one percent. We're right on the edge of peak comedy.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: So this noll from what you and I understand here,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: this as size of bread and ale was really had
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: we had to. We would feel bad later if we
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: if we didn't, if we didn't grasp the moment. So uh,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: this whole thing was a a regulatory move right. If
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: you've ever seen FCC regulations or FDA is a better comparison.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: It's the idea of a state power saying we have
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: certain standards for public goods. How much should bread cost,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: how much should it weigh, how what size should it be.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: And maybe it shouldn't before of like poison or fingers. Yeah,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: one would hope.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: I actually think this is pretty forward thinking for twelve
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: sixty six. I don't think I realized that there was
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: this level of quality control in industry that early.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a real spider man power and responsibility thing.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Because you get certain rights as a baker, you also
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: take on certain certain levels of accountability. So if you're
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a baker in this time in twelve sixty six, when
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: this rolls out, you have to have a distinctive mark
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: on your bread, and that can show the public that
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: you make good bread. And if you don't make good bread, right,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: if you've got dirty flower things like that, we will find
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: you the regulators. In theory, the regulators can protect the
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: public by identifying your poopy loaves.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: So during the late part of the Middle Ages, the
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: law offices of Conrad Schernian specialized in intellectual property law,
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: has this to say. Laws began to develop to allow
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: enforcement of marks. These laws grew out of forgery, counterfeiting,
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: and fraud laws. But then in eighteen and oh three
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: the powers that be over in France passed another important
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: as size I guess or edict known as the Factory,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: Manufacture and Workplace Act, which actually criminalized counterfeiting of somebody
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: else's mark, somebody else's seal, and passing it off as
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: your own. It also prohibited kind of talking smack about others,
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: like like slander law I guess early examples of that,
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: and as well as wrongfully using the name of certain
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: regions of production, which is still pretty enforced today, something
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: like this. That's why like Champagne can't be called Champagne
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: unless it's made in the sh Champagne region of France.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: And there are other certain types of designations for things
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: like butter from like regions like Saxony and you know,
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: stuff like that.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we see similar things already, as you said today.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: For instance, if you have Ohio on wei and it's
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: not experienced in Ohio, it's just sparkling depression.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: That's good.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Ben I don't know. If it's good, all right, we'll
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: keep it. But so you're laying this out perfectly. Man.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty seven, France is ahead of the game.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: They institute the first comprehensive trademark system. This is the
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Manufacturing Goods Mark Act. Obviously we're translating from France. This
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: set up a trademark deposit system and it said this
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: system this rupric for how to handle these things. Said, look,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: we're going to recognize use based trade and we're going
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: to examine every new trademark based on trademarks that have
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: been registered before. England a little late to the game here.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: It takes takes about a half a century to catch up.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: It's nineteen oh five when they have their own version
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: of this. In eighteen sixty two, however, they passed the
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Merchandise Marx Act, and that's the one that says, hey,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: if you know something is counterfeit or you know something
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: is misleading, you can't mess with it. You can't be
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: associated with it. So first they punished people right for
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: selling Timu products or you know something.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: By performing the five pains.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Shut out least, see how you filed it. Also, Max
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: just wanted to chime in on the chat and say
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: thank you for the Ohio slander. You're welcome, man. We
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: serve at the pleasure of the public.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Risen it up in Ohio. Oh wait, no, Ohio doesn't
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: have RIZ. I'm sorry.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: I'm still confused by as it is scivity. Indeed, did
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: you mention the Trademark Registration Acts? No, but we absolutely
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: must I think we should. That happened in England in
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: eighteen seventy five and established a much more robust system
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: to register trademarks.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: And I just wanted to add really quickly.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: I think we may have mentioned this when we were
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: talking about patents and you know, equally copyrights and the
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: idea of brands is all of this stuff is developed
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: as a way to not like stifle creativity, to not
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: stifle innovation, because if people thought that their hard work
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: and creative time and effort was just going to be
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: stolen by somebody else, eventually, it would absolutely tamp down
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: on any innovation.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: So these types of laws really came up out of necessity.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, The idea is to incentivize innovation, right, And.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's obvious. I just thought it was maybe.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's huge to me.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: I think it's cool that they recognize that, is what
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: I'm saying.
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: But it was a recognition of something that would ultimately
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: collapse society. You know, if no one was doing cool
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: things that would move society forward because they were afraid
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: they were just gonna get ripped off, then things would stagnate.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and uh, being incredibly self involved. Let's fast
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: forward to the United States. That's where we live. Those
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: are the marks of which we trade. Uh, US say
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: you too.
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: It has its moments, It has its moments.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: US A three out of five has its moments. Uh
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: wanted to give four stars, Kitty, that's a brutal rating.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Five give a help review for the whole of the
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: United States.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: It's it's a tremendous experiment that continues today and we're
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: immensely privileged to be part of that. Uh. The first
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: federal statue. Do you like the diplomacy there?
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely? I think.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: I'm trying. I'm trying to bite my tongue a little bit.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: It does have its moments here in the US of A.
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: But experiment is correct.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So speaking of experimentation and taking ingredients from the
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: global thought of humans and bringing them back to your
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: own ideological kitchen. The US whipped up its own version
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: of trademark law. The first federal statute dealing with trademarks
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: occurs in eighteen seventy. The Supreme Court doesn't like it.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: They smack Congress on the heinie.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: That was the ip man, the ip evan, I'm right
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: on the bike, I love this is a character.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So the Supreme Court says, look, the copyright clause
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: of the Constitution, Article one, Section eight, clause eight does
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: not give you, you, knuckleheads of Congress, this does not
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: give you the powers that you want. And then Congress
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: feels some type of way about this. They respond by
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: passing the Trade Mark Act of eighteen eighty one based
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: on the Commerce clause, and then the Supreme Court lets
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: them pass fast forward nineteen forty six.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: That's a pretty significant fast forward, and.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: It's a jump. It's a jump, for sure. And this
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: is where Congress passes the Lanham Act La Nham, which
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: is still sort of our go to way as a
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: country for understanding trademark issues today.
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: And in nineteen ninety five, another pretty significant jump, Congress
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: passed the Federal Trademark Dilution Act. Which protects some of
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: those famous trademarks we were just talking about, like the Walmarts,
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: the targets, the Apple computers of the world. Protects those
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: from uses that would serve to dilute that create distinctiveness
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: that comes along with a design or an idea like
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: that that has become associated very closely with a particular company.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. More recently, Congress responded to a thing that
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: you and I have talked about on various shows with
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: our colleagues. Look, legislation always is outpaced by technology and innovation,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: so legislation is therefore always reactive. We've joked about it before.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: It's called cyber squatting, right. You see a new up
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: and coming business like shoefeet, and so you buy shoefeet
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: dot com and then you wait until the owners of
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Shoefeet the company come to you and you sort of
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: ransom off that Internet domain. Congress fought against this with
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: the Anti Cyber Squatting Consumer Protection Act.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: But we know that there are loopholes around stuff like this,
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: as evidenced by I think I mentioned on a recent
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: episode of Either This or Stuff that I want you
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: to know. There's a dude that was featured on NPR
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: piece who has made good money buying up domain names
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: associated with potential combinations of politicians who might go on
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: to run together for insert office here. You know, like
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: so that apparently is not fully protected by this anti
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: cyber squad and consumer protection acts.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, to jump in real quick.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: One of the best hints we still have for Elder
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Scroll six, which is what you know, thirteen years in
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: production now where all right take place is bethes the
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: number of years ago bought up like a ridiculous number
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: of just trademarks of like like elder.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Scrolls, this, this, this, this, because they're trying to avoid
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: that thing right there.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, avoid the cyber squatting and Bethesda big fans get
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: at us. He huge Skyrim guys, by the ways.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Actually kind of jump in.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: Have you guys ever played Dishonored before I finally picked
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: it up myself?
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Wait, it is tremendous great, I'm not yet know that one.
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: I do have to say, though, Bethesda, fix your glitches,
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: get your house in order. I have yet to finish
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: Skyrim because I keep running into I keep running into issues.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Gave up a second time.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: You just go to settings and crank it down like
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: one or two settings and it'll be fun.
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: No, no, no, it's not about difficulty. It's literally a quest
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: that won't let me progress. Oh yeah, and it's just
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: I'm just fed up and I'm at a point where
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: I've I'm past a reasonable save spot. It would cause
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: me to have to backtrack so far that I'm just
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: like sorry. I do love Bethesda, those so that's why
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: I'm saying, you know it with with with uh love
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: in my heart. Please fix your glitches.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: I hate to just looking and say like, hey, Bethesa's
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: gets fixed by the motors. But if you look at
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: the mod and the mods, there's some really good patches
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: made by motors.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: It's pretty good fixtures.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: But on your platform and engagement anyway, Bethesda as three
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: inevitable stealth archers. Thank you for Skyrim. Also, you clearly
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: made all of us stealth archers. That's just how the
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: game works, Oh Paladin, all right for now? So such
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: an inside joke. Okay, So, folks, we talked in episode
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: one of this series about the advantages to a creator
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: for registering a trademark, for messing with the concept of
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: patents in general. We don't have to go too far
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: out down that road. Please tune in to our first episode. However,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: we thought it would be important to get in front
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: of the next question you might be asking yourself, which is,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: so this all sounds well and good guys, how do
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: I get a trademark? Also, after going through all this trouble,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: can I lose that trademark?
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a bit of a use it or lose
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: it kind of question.
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: And with the help of attorney Brian Farcas, who specializes
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: in these matters, we can shed some light on this.
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: He mentions that they're the common law trademark rights are
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: for just simply using that mark, whether it be a name,
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: whether it be a logo, in the practice of a
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: business commerce within a particular community. And this is totally
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: fine for a lot of folks at a certain level
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: of success or notoriety, Right.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. This is something you can do largely online.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: If you file an application on the USPTO website or
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: USTO as we like to say, then you're gonna hear
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: from him in about ninety days, three months or so on,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: and the examining forces there will right back to you
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: and they'll say, okay, they won't immediately, you know, smack
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: you down. They are right, they will ip man you immediately.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: They will say okay, good to go, or more likely,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: they'll say you need to admit some corrections, right, here's improvement. Yeah, yeah,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: they'll they'll help you edit it. Registration becomes simple in
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: that regard, if everything works and the wind is at
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: your back. However, your your pitch for a trademark can
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: be challenged, and that's where things get much more complicated.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: You know, you might say, hey, I've got a great idea.
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: For I'm trying to think of a famous streng Oh
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: I've got a great idea for my Apple company, and
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: it's a it's a very simple drive of an Apple.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: And then a certain tech giant might say, ah, we
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: already called did on that one. So then you have
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: to go to court.
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: Or a certain group of mop topped Brits might also
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: have issues with this use. I'm really excited to get
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: into that in a very near future episode, so Farcas
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: Brian Farcas, Attorney at law, kind of breaks down the
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: process of registration thusly. He describes it as allowing your
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: business to essentially scare away your competitors your mark. He
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: says will be listed on the USPTO's Register of Trademarks,
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: which allows you to use that are in the circle symbol,
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: and will also include it in a registry that is
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: used to search pre existing trademarks, because that's another part
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: of the process. If you're a big company and you're
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: considering making a trademark, you have to pay your internal
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: legal team or outside council to perform this search, which
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: is not like, you know, rocket science. And that's because
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: of all of these ways that the us PTO have
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: made this stuff accessible.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we run into this as well in our
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: strange careers when like we develop a lot of shows
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: outside of outside of this, and one of the first
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: things we have to tell people when we're helping build
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: wonderful explorations is to do their homework. Check on the
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: idea of your show name, make if it sounds that great,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: make sure someone else doesn't already have that show name,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: because that avoids a lot of a lot of pain
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: points down the road. Look, can you should always do
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: your homework, do careful research to your point nol before
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: you even pitch a trademark. And look, we're gonna be honest,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: it can be very expensive to have a trademark, especially
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: if it's challenged. You can go to Toe's Toe's own
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: website and see the long list of fees they have
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: for filing electronically versus filing via paper. It's a couple
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: one hundred bucks or five hundred bucks, depend on what
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: you do. But then there are other fees that get
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: tacked on, So we're not going to go into the
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: weeds of that. Just please recognize there's a reason folks
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: have built their entire careers on knowing what's going on.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: The legal expertise.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Is key here. Bureaucracy is quite a beast to tackle.
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: So just because your trademark is registered, though, it doesn't
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: mean that you own it in perpetuity.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: David H.
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: Schwartz, another attorney specializing in this kind of thing, says
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: that it requires constant vigilance to defend and protect that trademark.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: The moment you let your guard down, he says, there's
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: a chance that someone else might swoop in and use
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: your trademark without permission. This unauthorized use could lead to
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: confusion among customers, and we can association between the trademark
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: and the company or presents. This is what we've previously
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: described as brand dilution.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and love this term that we teased earlier.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: When something becomes genericized, it can be a big blow
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: to the company who owns that trademark. Right now, for instance,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: we say, instead of searching for something on the Internet,
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: we say google it, right, or we say xeroxx something
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: if you're making a copy or people used to say that,
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: and this is a big concern. Trademark dilution occurs when
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: you see other forces whatever they may be, using this
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: in an unauthorized way. It doesn't matter whether or not
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: the products are actually competing. So for example, if Elon
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Musk got a wild hair and decided to replace all
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: the Tesla car branding with the Nike swoosh, that would
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: be trademark delusion or something like that, because he's not
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: selling shoes, but he is confusing consumers, and that might
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: weaken the unique association between the trademark and the actual
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: company that owns it.
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and can I just add to that, genera size
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: is like a verb. And the term that I was
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: excited about and I wasn't familiar with is the noun,
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: which is genericide. Yeah, someone had to have been being
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: clever with that one.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: It sounds way darker though it really does dark, but
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: it sounds like war crime stuff.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: It was. It was clearly a portmanteau created by a
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: person who also created a trademark and then got mad
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: when it got swiped. Right, That's why they it's such
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: a high stakes word. But it's a nice word. We
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: love this language. There are ways to protect your trademark.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: Of course, you can register it. You can also so
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: like you said, Noel, beautifully put use it or lose it.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: Use your trademark, consistently, monitor for infringements and take swift
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: action against those if they occur. And then, of course
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: uncle Sam wants is viig so here in the US,
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: remember you need to renew your trademark registration. It's it's
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: different from a patent or a copyright. We'll explore those
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: in a later series. Because get this, a trademark does
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: not have a concrete, defined expiration date. And here's what
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: this reminds me of before we get to know policy
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: wonk about this stuff, it reminds me Noll of the
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: tricky burden that milk expiration dates put on consumers here.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: Right, is it a sell by date?
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: Or it's like an expiration date and what's the wiggle
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: room on either side?
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, come on, man, that's unfair. Or why do I
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: have to purposely like smell this and do a little
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: experiment every time I'm not ready for my straight up
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: black coffee.
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: Well, it can also depend on like the temperature you
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: keep your fridge, you know. I mean, I think it's
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: to cover their butts more than anything. Is to say
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: it's gonna be fresh, definitely under whatever conditions before this
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: particular day. But it doesn't mean that on the next
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: day after that date it immediately spoils.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: That's just not how science works.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: And there's that whole thing about al capone, which is
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: unproven but maybe worth a ridiculous history episode in the future.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Let's write it down. The idea is that al capone
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: is the reason expiration dates are on milk products or
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: on like bottles of milk.
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: Well, because you like strong armed the USDA waved up
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: menace them with a bat.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, he was definitely you know, he was a
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: narco of his day. He apparently, the story goes, this
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: is unproven. The story goes that his niece became extremely
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: ill from drinking expired milk, and so he put his own.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: It became personal to him, and he lobbied aggressively to
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: get some kind of expiration dates put on milk. The
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: milk lobby or the dairy industry overall big Parma as
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: we like to call them. Yeah, they've got some vinegar
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: with him too. So the story is again proven that
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: due to Capone's intervention, we ended up with the compromise
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: of the cell by date. But I go, I don't
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: want to wake up, you know, and try to put
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: some milk in my coffee and feel like I'm taking
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: a gamble, you know what I mean?
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, you don't.
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: And in generally I think this still by dates work
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: as advertised, But it's up to you to determine how
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: far past that are you.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Willing to go? Yeah, yeah, what are you gonna roll
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: those dice? Right? So, anyhow, because the trademark does not
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: have a concrete expiration date, that means technically possibly a
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: trademark can last forever. We're getting some of this from
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: the legal practice of Michael E. Condudas and says, look,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: a trademark can last for infinity as long as it
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: is used on a regular basis and renewed once per decade.
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And like I said, we're gonna get into a
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: really really interesting and telling case of these types of
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: trademarks disputes. It's sort of the delicate dance that is
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: sort of protecting one's trademark. A fascinating case that lasted
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: quite a long time between Apple Computers and the Beatles
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: Company Apple Core, and it's really it's one for the
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: it's one for the history books, and we're going to
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: talk about it, I think in two episodes time.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to talk about that very soon. We
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: love the ridiculosity of this. That supportman too, I have
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: for the speed and direction mark which something becomes ridiculous.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, thank you, blush you. This is part
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: two of our ongoing exploration of intellectual property. We hope
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: you join us very soon for some upcoming episodes related
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: to this and related to indeed other ridiculous things we've
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: been We've been cooking a lot here in the new year,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: and we can't thank you enough, fellow ridiculous historians, for
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: joining us. However, there is one person we can thank
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: enough on air. That is our super producer and research
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: associate for this episode and this series, mister Max Williams.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: Thanks Max, keep thinking lit more more there. It is huge.
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: Thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme A. J.
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: Bahamas Jacobs, the Puzzler, Jonathan Strickland, the Quizzer.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, Professor Rachel Big Spinach, Lance, the rude dudes at
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime. We're just talking with them a little bit
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: off air. If you like our show, you'll love theirs. Thanks,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: of course also to everybody who came up with a
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: great idea and dealt with all this bureaucracy to get
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: it into the world.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks.
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.