Latest / Project Podcast / Advising government on radioactive waste, with Sir Nigel Thrift (CoRWM)

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Advising government on radioactive waste, with Sir Nigel Thrift (CoRWM) · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the childhood
0:11
body for the project profession. This episode is part of our
0:15
series of senior leader interviews hosted by APM Chief
0:18
Executive Professor Adam Bodison.
0:21
This time Adam is in conversation with Sir Nigel
0:23
Thrift, Chair of the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management,
0:27
or Quorum. Korum's role, as Sir Nigel
0:30
describes it, is to give independent scientific and
0:33
technical advice to UK Government on all aspects of the
0:36
management of radioactive waste. Sir Nigel is one of the world's
0:41
leading human geographers and previously served as Vice
0:43
Chancellor and President of the University of Warwick and as Pro
0:47
Vice Chancellor for Research at the University of Oxford.
0:50
Listen on to hear him chat with Adam about dealing with a
0:53
football stadium's worth of radioactive waste.
0:56
The environmental impact of megacities and how to enable
1:00
better long term thinking in government departments.
1:10
Hello, welcome Sir Nigel Thrift to the APM Podcast.
1:13
It's a real pleasure to have you on today.
1:16
You're currently Chair of the Committee on Radioactive Waste
1:19
Management, but before we talk about that role, I think it'd be
1:21
useful to give our listeners an overview of your extensive
1:24
academic career, particularly your time as Vice Chancellor at
1:27
the University of Warwick. So I wonder if you might spend a
1:30
little bit of time giving us some background on your academic
1:32
career and also maybe your primary areas of specialism?
1:37
Yeah, sure. So straightforwardly.
1:40
Adam I was basically an academic until my mid 40s, early mid 40s,
1:46
and I'm still an academic in that I publish a book.
1:49
Every two or three years. But somehow the other in the
1:53
early or mid 40s, I got interested in management.
1:56
So it's interesting to understand why that is, I think.
1:59
So I I had actually early. Academic experience at
2:03
Cambridge. At Leeds, at.
2:05
ANU at Lampeter and then I basically moved to Bristol
2:09
University and in time I became Head of Department of Geography.
2:16
At Bristol. And it's a very.
2:17
Good. Department, I might add, and I
2:20
at the same time met a man called Sir John Inderby, who?
2:25
It was and. Is a remarkably famous.
2:27
Physicist. And he was concerned about the
2:31
university. 'S research.
2:32
Performance. And he asked me to come onto
2:34
this little panel that he was doing, which was basically
2:37
blitzing the university in one way or another.
2:42
And that genuinely got me really interested in all sorts of ways.
2:45
And it also exposed me to every single discipline in the
2:49
university, which was wonderful. Actually, so I was.
2:52
Then doing parallel tracks. I was still.
2:55
Doing an academic. Career, I told her.
2:57
All kinds of places during the time I was.
2:59
At Bristol. At Macquarie ETH.
3:02
UCLA, Vienna, National University of Singapore, couple
3:06
of institutes. Of advanced study, but at the.
3:08
Same time I was also doing this parallel track in management
3:12
anyway in. Bristol I.
3:13
Kind of run a ran out of road and basically almost on.
3:18
Spec I applied for a job at Oxford as head of.
3:22
Division and I got it and I went to.
3:26
Be a. Head of Division at Oxford and
3:29
then. The pro vice chancellor research
3:31
that's basically. The person who's nominally, and
3:35
I say nominally, in charge. Of research at Oxford after two
3:38
or three years there. I was headhunted to.
3:41
Go as a vice chancellor at Warwick.
3:44
And I did that for 10 years and then after that.
3:48
I thought. What am I going to do next and?
3:50
Luckily, a really. Interesting job came up.
3:53
As executive. Director of a thing called
3:56
Schwartzman Scholars, and that's working in Beijing and in New
4:00
York to set up a new college at Tsinghua University.
4:04
Which is. I think the best university in
4:06
China and then going on from that.
4:09
I took up my current job as chair of the government
4:12
committee on. Radioactive waste management.
4:14
For the last six years. Wow, It's, it's probably
4:18
something we can spend a lot of time talking about.
4:20
And, and I think what's really interesting is the, the, the
4:23
number of different pivots actually at different points in
4:25
the career, which I'm I'm sure we'll come back to.
4:27
But you talked about management there, Nigel.
4:30
And I suppose if I extend that a little bit further to think
4:32
about project and programme management, it's not something
4:36
that people would necessarily instinctively associate with
4:41
something that's been relevant to an academic career or to
4:43
running a university. What what's your experience been
4:46
of of of that particular aspect of management?
4:50
I think the most important thing to.
4:51
Say, is that people? Often have quite strange notions
4:54
of what universities are like, and in particular I think it's
5:00
worth remembering that many of them nowadays.
5:03
Are very large. They have.
5:06
Turnovers, you know, in some cases in the billions of.
5:09
Pounds Oxford. And Cambridge, I think 2.22
5:12
point 3 billion a year and basically.
5:17
When you've got that big. And you've got that many
5:20
academics and that many students, and you're trying to
5:23
do things like building buildings to actually mean that
5:27
people can actually do work as academics and students.
5:32
You have to use. Project management.
5:34
It's not really an option, you know.
5:36
Project management is a full. Stop and whether it's.
5:40
Rolling out new working practises, building new
5:44
facilities, planning big. Empirical science research.
5:48
You're bound to be using it and. Size, especially the.
5:52
Number of students, which has really increased quite massively
5:56
in many universities and financial pressures which at the
6:00
moment are extreme, mean that university administrations have
6:04
had to become more and more professional and project
6:08
management is a part of that. And actually one of the
6:11
interesting things is it's actually now appearing quite
6:15
strongly. In big empirical science
6:17
research, you'll start to see. People really running project.
6:22
Software. In order to cope with actually
6:25
putting research together in various ways, not just
6:29
nationally but internationally, we're talking about vast systems
6:33
at this point in time. The main problem for
6:36
universities now, against that background, is if.
6:39
You're not very careful. You start.
6:41
To look like an industrial combine rather than a
6:44
university. And I do think.
6:46
That's a real issue. But actually, I don't really
6:50
think that the. Sector has really.
6:52
Had a proper discussion about that.
6:54
But there we are. We're not trying to make
6:56
universities, if you like, into bland blobs.
6:59
We're trying to make them into incredibly exciting places and
7:03
you have to be very careful therefore not to iron out all of
7:06
their. Quirks we, we've started kind of
7:10
drifting into the, this idea around perceptions of
7:13
universities. I wonder if you might talk about
7:15
perceptions of the project profession, because my sense has
7:17
always been that the profession has somewhat of an image problem
7:22
or project management itself as an image problem.
7:25
And even though it's matured a lot over the past 25 years, you
7:28
know, its role, its values to society isn't necessarily always
7:33
well understood by the general public, by businesses, by
7:36
leaders. What what?
7:37
What's your sense of the image of the project profession?
7:40
I don't really see. Project management as having the
7:45
the image problem that that you think it does.
7:48
I mean it's. True that people don't.
7:51
Appreciate don't really understand the sheer amount of
7:54
effort that has to go, for example into managing really big
7:58
projects which would not. Be possible?
8:01
Without project management, it's in.
8:03
I can't imagine how you could do it, not nowadays for example.
8:07
You only have to. Think of something like the
8:09
building of Hinkley C nuclear power station.
8:12
That's the largest construction project in Europe.
8:15
You. You have a look at the project
8:17
management outputs from their. Software.
8:20
And you go no. This is quite extraordinary.
8:23
You know the detail, the timings and so on and so forth how you
8:27
link things together. So I think to.
8:30
Begin with it may be that people.
8:32
Don't appreciate it? But I don't think that means it
8:35
has a bad image as such. Once you start.
8:39
Talking in the terms, well, how in heaven's name else would you
8:42
do some of these things? I think people come round pretty
8:45
quickly. It's.
8:46
Also, they may not realise that actually a lot of the time they
8:50
are doing project management, you know that.
8:53
A lot of. People are using project
8:54
management and programme management.
8:56
Software, full stop. They need tools to plan to
8:59
schedule to. Track to collaborate to report
9:02
on projects. And they are using them.
9:04
They use them. Academics are using them as I.
9:07
Said to set up research. Or they think maybe another
9:11
question is that project management is a kind of.
9:13
Technical activity. And they're basically project
9:17
managers are kind of the boffins of organisation, if I can put it
9:21
that way. And again, I just don't think
9:24
that's. True if.
9:25
You look at it. Actually, the really.
9:27
Great project managers. Are also really great.
9:30
People managers. You have to be because you're.
9:33
Threading things together in. All sorts of ways.
9:36
And I think. Therefore that.
9:38
Maybe it's. True that project.
9:41
Management is sometimes undersung, if I can put it that
9:44
way. But actually when you start.
9:46
Looking at it large. Parts of it are.
9:49
Thriving and it's extending into all kinds of areas that it was
9:52
never used before. So I wouldn't worry unduly.
9:57
You talked earlier on about your books and your academic
9:59
research. I know you've written a lot
10:01
about the role of cities and cities of course are host to
10:05
many of the largest infrastructure programmes around
10:08
the world, including transport programmes.
10:11
How do you see the role of cities and major programmes
10:14
developing in, in the coming years, particularly in a post
10:18
pandemic era and, and, and particularly when there's a big
10:21
drive now towards net zero and, and, and really having a net
10:25
zero future? Well, I think the first thing to
10:28
say is I mean. There are lots of cities, but
10:30
the real. Issue I think becomes how how to
10:33
actually deal with the mega cities.
10:35
These are cities. That are kind of 10 / 20 million
10:39
in some. Cases of people often, if you're
10:43
lucky, quite. Highly concentrated.
10:44
Though there are some cities. That really sprawl massively.
10:48
Really massively. So there are interesting things
10:51
I think around that. So project management.
10:54
Yes, of course, all those. Construction projects going on,
10:57
many of which. Still have to.
10:58
Green up, I think it's. True to.
11:00
Say though the industry. Is is.
11:01
Trying hard, but I think the thing that for me has always
11:05
been an issue and this comes back to work I've done, there's
11:08
been maintenance and repair. One of the problems.
11:11
I think is actually maintenance and repair is.
11:14
Thought of a lot. Of the time too late in the day
11:18
and actually you then find that construction projects are being
11:21
built. Which are very difficult.
11:23
To maintain and repair. But it's worth remembering that
11:28
everyone talks about. How you you know buildings only
11:31
have a? Set life cycle but actually
11:33
truth to. Tell most of them are extended
11:37
into. Quite long periods of.
11:38
Time and you know. For example in the.
11:42
UK the number of houses pre 1919 is surprisingly high and.
11:48
They were never built. To last.
11:50
As long as they have. But maintenance and repairers
11:52
made sure they do. And that's a good.
11:55
Thing because that means you're not using loads and loads of
11:58
carbon to build new houses. So I think that's something to
12:02
think about. The second thing is.
12:04
Very straightforwardly that, as you say, we've got to do.
12:08
Something about cities at the moment if you look at them.
12:12
You could say that. They're incredibly
12:13
environmentally destructive in many ways.
12:16
They're almost like tyrannosaurs.
12:18
You know, eating everything in their path and infrastructural
12:23
innovation can help in lots of ways.
12:25
Green concrete, new carbon. Free power sources sponge.
12:29
Cities, all of these different kinds of things.
12:31
But actually, truth to tell. Turning these cities, especially
12:35
these large cities, into. Really positive forces.
12:39
Is less about major. Infrastructure programmes,
12:42
though, they have their. Place and I'm not trying to
12:45
suggest. Otherwise.
12:46
But more about actually getting the politics right in these
12:49
cities at the moment. When you look at a lot of these
12:52
major infrastructure programmes, they benefit certain sections of
12:56
the population far more than they do others.
12:59
And actually the sections of the population they don't benefit
13:02
very much are the ones that often have all the externalities
13:06
from those projects. Loaded onto them so.
13:09
Something has to happen to make sure those.
13:12
Kinds of practises change. We hinted earlier on that we
13:16
were going to talk about your role on the Committee on
13:20
Radioactive Waste Management, where you are indeed the Chair.
13:22
So I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about what your role
13:25
is there and and also the remit that the committee has, because
13:28
I, I suspect lots of people haven't heard of this committee.
13:32
Basically it's. It's remit, it's very.
13:34
Straightforwardly to give responsible, accurate scientific
13:38
and technical advice. To UK government and the and the
13:42
devolved administrations. It was founded in 2003 as an
13:48
independent arm's length body and it has to be independent.
13:52
I don't think there's any doubt about that.
13:54
Interested in all aspects of the management of Radioactive?
13:57
Waste we go across the spectrum. And in the.
14:00
UK this is particularly. Important, of course.
14:03
Because the UK store of. Radioactive waste continues to
14:06
grow and only the US, France, China and Russia currently have
14:11
a larger inventory. So there's a lot.
14:13
Of it around that needs working with and are putting away and
14:18
basically what we look at is how in a sense you can actually deal
14:24
with and manage this waste, which is partly an
14:27
organisational problem. But it's also partly a
14:30
scientific problem of. That there is no doubt at all.
14:33
What kinds of waste are you getting?
14:35
For example, what's actually in them?
14:38
Can you neutralise? Some of that.
14:40
How do you pack? It etcetera, etcetera.
14:44
So that's the first thing we do. Scientific and technical advice.
14:48
We also. Scrutinise the Nuclear
14:51
Decommissioning Authority, the NDA and it's waste subsidiary
14:55
Operation Nuclear. Waste Services, which is.
14:57
NWS in SO. Far as they relate to
15:01
radioactive waste. And that's important as well,
15:04
because nuclear decommissioning. Authority has a large.
15:08
Budget and it is trying to put away quite a.
15:11
Lot of this waste. And then the third thing that we
15:14
do. Is.
15:15
Public engagement of one form or another.
15:19
And. We want to be seen as
15:21
independent in. Part because we want the.
15:24
Public to understand that we are independent so even though.
15:29
Individual members of the. Committee may have.
15:31
Personal views. The committee.
15:33
Itself is neither pro nor anti nuclear.
15:36
It's there to deal with the waste and that's basically a
15:40
task. Whatever.
15:41
Happens and remember as well at the same time, a key premise of
15:45
nuclear policy. Is that its waste?
15:48
Will be definitively dealt. With and nuclear.
15:51
Policy, in a sense, in this country depends on.
15:53
That, so that's important. Little bit about make up twelve
15:58
members of the. Committee.
16:00
And they cover a massive range of interests.
16:03
Three nuclear. Scientists.
16:04
A geoscientist, the country's leading.
16:07
Nuclear lawyer and environmental.
16:09
Planner, a former senior. Regulator, who's also.
16:13
Worked for Old Fashioned Bays, an underground mining
16:16
construction. Expert A Top.
16:19
Project manager and former Bayes director and anthropologist, and
16:24
me. I'm a geographer.
16:26
Many of them have run. Large organisations, so they've.
16:28
Also got a practical sense of what's possible and of.
16:32
Course, at the moment quorum, as it's called, is in a
16:35
particularly active phase, and there are a set of reasons for
16:38
that. One of them is making progress
16:40
on the early stages of citing a. Geological disposal facility
16:44
and. We'll, we'll talk about that
16:45
later. The second is Fusion, which is
16:51
not going to produce much in the way.
16:52
Of radioactive waste. But it has to be looked at and
16:55
it. Could be extraordinarily
16:56
important then, of course. There's a new energy.
17:00
Security policy which has a 24 GW.
17:02
Target for nuclear by. 2050. Which includes 3 new nuclear
17:07
power stations increase C Sizewell.
17:10
C and possibly Wilva it involves.
17:14
Small. Module reactors and advanced.
17:17
Module reactors, SMRS and AMRS as they're known, and.
17:21
Basically, the idea is to get to about 1/4 of.
17:24
UK Power being generated by nuclear.
17:28
And the way that you can look at this is.
17:30
Through a new UK wide policy on managing radioactive substances
17:34
and nuclear decommissioning which actually came out this
17:38
year and all of our. Reports and our studies and our
17:41
blogs are on the. Core and website, and we're a
17:43
very active committee, believe me.
17:46
So that's a kind of quick roundup.
17:49
Wow, that's a huge remit. You, you talked about policy
17:53
there and, and the kinds of initiatives that you're talking
17:57
about. We're not talking about policy,
17:58
which is, you know, with an outlook of three, five years,
18:02
you're talking about decades, potentially 100 plus years for
18:08
some of these, for some of these programmes.
18:12
Governments I think are sometimes criticised for, I
18:16
suppose, thinking in kind of parliamentary cycles, which are,
18:19
you know, typically five years depending on who's in power.
18:22
What's your view on that? The kind of the tension there
18:24
between political thinking, which tends to be in political
18:27
cycles and therefore policy is often grouped in, in, in, in
18:31
that respect versus the kind of demands of something like
18:35
nuclear where the the thinking needs to be really strategic and
18:37
really long term. Long term thinking is is is
18:42
quite difficult in a lot of UK major programmes.
18:45
Everyone actually knows that. OK.
18:47
I, I think that you think anyone with the denier, but somehow not
18:53
all that much gets done about it.
18:56
And I think there are lots of reasons there's no separate
19:00
facility for long term thinking in government departments, the
19:04
pre eminence of short time, short term financial settlements
19:08
in government and indeed in the British economy.
19:11
The lack of foresight skills and, as you say, the dominance
19:15
of short term political pressures.
19:19
And this is a real problem. I I don't think there's any
19:22
doubt about that. What you do about it?
19:24
Is another issue. The Welsh.
19:27
Government, for example, has its well-being of future direct
19:30
generations law, which means that any.
19:33
Piece of. Legislation that comes up.
19:35
To the Welsh. Senate.
19:36
Has to actually go. Through inspection to see.
19:39
What it will? Do in if you like, impacting
19:42
future generations. We could do something similar in
19:46
England and I I think that would be sensible.
19:49
What I'd like to see is something like the Finnish
19:52
National Preparedness Commission, and it has a
19:55
practise of building up a systematic compendium of, if you
19:59
like, answers to each and every. Breton.
20:03
Problem and potential disaster. Which?
20:06
Might occur in the future and that I think has made the fins
20:10
fins unusually. Well prepared for the inset
20:13
onset. Of those kinds of events.
20:17
It it's. We we don't have institutions
20:19
that do this. That's.
20:21
The problem so until. We have.
20:23
Some of those institutions and until we believe that long term
20:28
thinking is it in itself a discipline, we're not going to
20:31
get all that far. Yeah, really, really interesting
20:35
points there and and my big take away from what you said there is
20:39
there are lessons that we can both learn and apply from really
20:43
effective practise and thinking that's happening globally and
20:47
maybe that's something we need to as a country I think maybe
20:49
maybe get better at. Let me ask you about safety.
20:53
You know, people often worried about nuclear, particularly the
20:58
kind of safety aspect of it. It's clearly a big priority in
21:01
the nuclear sector. I mean, I was at an event
21:04
recently up in, in Sellafield where I heard the, the leaders
21:10
of this event say what we need from our project management
21:13
community is boring predictability.
21:16
And I suppose I'm, I'm interested in how we maintain
21:20
those really high, much needed high safety standards, but also
21:25
make sure that we don't inadvertently lose the kind of
21:28
innovation, the new technologies and so on that's needed to drive
21:32
nuclear forward and, and bring it through to the, the, you
21:35
know, the next phase of its evolution really.
21:38
Safety is at the heart. Of nuclear and has been now.
21:41
For for several decades. And you can't move without
21:46
safety briefings. Without the someone.
21:50
Having to produce it each meeting a new means of.
21:54
Producing safety and. So on and so forth and.
22:00
That's right, you I don't think the.
22:04
Population would expect anything less and neither should they, so
22:09
I think that's an important thing to say in its own right.
22:14
I don't think that's boring, if I'm honest.
22:16
I really don't. It's the safety itself requires.
22:19
All kinds of innovations. To be really effective.
22:23
So you should see the engineering.
22:25
That has to be. Done in nuclear power stations
22:28
before the fact in order to make sure that they can be
22:32
decommissioned properly, and they actually do.
22:35
Have to think a long. Term into the future and
22:37
produce. Boutique solutions for.
22:41
All kinds of things. And I think, you know, people
22:46
underestimate just how smart some of these people are and the
22:50
things that they're doing. But even if you didn't think
22:54
that safety and nuclear anyway, is enforced by a raft.
22:58
Of regulatory bodies, the office.
23:00
For nuclear regulation, the Environment Agency, the health
23:04
and safety. Executive and lots of others,
23:07
but that hasn't. Stopped innovation in nuclear.
23:09
Especially recently, there's a lot of it about.
23:12
Current we've, we've talked about fusion, there's small
23:15
modular reactors and advanced modular reactors.
23:19
The the thing that I think is different from a lot of
23:22
industries is it takes a long time for these innovations.
23:26
To get authorisation to proceed. If I can put it that way,
23:29
because they have to be seen to be safe, there's nothing wrong
23:34
with that and I don't see a way round.
23:36
It I don't. Think anyone in Britain would
23:39
not want? These safeguards and.
23:42
I think. You you'd be impressed by the
23:46
sheer. Amount of effort that goes into
23:48
safety in the industry and no one can say that anything
23:53
untoward will ever happen but. People.
23:55
Strive constantly to make. Sure that it doesn't.
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24:31
You, you gave us a teaser earlier on Nigel, when you, when
24:34
you mentioned the GDF, the geological disposal facility.
24:38
I wonder if you might tell us a bit about it and what the
24:40
primary challenges are in delivering this really important
24:44
nuclear waste project. I think the the most important
24:47
thing is to understand the scale of the problem, OK?
24:50
So the UK total. Amount of.
24:52
Radioactive waste produced after about. 70 years of operations is
24:56
about 4400 and 50 million cubic. Metres by total package volume
25:03
you can go. Online and find this straight
25:04
away. But actually, if you look at it
25:08
after all this waste. Has been packaged.
25:10
It's estimated its final volume if you put it all.
25:13
Together, which you wouldn't, would equate to a space.
25:16
Similar to. That of a large modern football
25:18
stadium. So.
25:20
After 70 years of operation, it's not at least an
25:24
extraordinary volume that we're talking about.
25:28
According to the NDA 2022 inventory, about 94.5% of the
25:34
radioactive waste volume in the UK is currently classed.
25:38
As low level waste. About 5.4% is what's called
25:43
intermediate level waste, and less than. 0.04.
25:47
Percent is. Classified as high level, but
25:52
and going the other way by degree of radioactivity, the.
25:56
Corresponding figures are 0.004% for low level waste, 18.5% for
26:03
intermediate. Level waste and. 81.5%.
26:07
For the high level waste. I don't.
26:09
I think you can draw your own conclusion.
26:11
About that. So some of the stuff is
26:14
difficult. And some of it isn't and some of
26:18
it is. Very difficult, so Simply put,
26:21
current. Plans in England, Wales are like
26:23
those in most countries, to dispose of the most hazardous.
26:27
Waste. All of the high level waste and
26:30
some of the intermediate. Level waste are.
26:33
Actually, in a geological. Disposal for facility which is
26:36
deep. Underground where it will
26:38
reside. For the foreseeable.
26:40
Future isolated from the biosphere and.
26:43
From future populations. So that radioactivity emitted by
26:47
the ways can. Decay to safe levels.
26:52
And it's important to note that. That was first recommended by
26:56
Cora. To the government in 2006 and
27:01
the geological. Disposal facility.
27:02
The GDF. Will be 200 to 1000 metres in
27:06
depth. So it could be as deep as a.
27:08
Kilometre and is likely to be in shore.
27:11
That's under the sea, within territorial waters.
27:13
So it could. Be on shore.
27:15
It'll be. Over 20 square kilometres in
27:18
underground extent with only a square kilometre of land.
27:22
Used at the surface. And it'll consist of tunnels in
27:25
which waste will be of various kinds will be lodged and left in
27:31
place and this this facility. Won't be.
27:34
Built all in one go. It'll be a gradual thing where
27:37
you build. Some tunnels and you build the
27:39
mainframework, but then you close off some tunnels and you
27:42
open some new tunnels and so on and so forth, so.
27:47
It's it's a. Big construction project, but
27:50
it's certainly. Not an impossible construction
27:52
project and 1:00. Of the reasons for that is
27:55
because technology's come on, as as you well know, and in
27:59
particular modern underground technology in the last 20.
28:02
Years or something has really gone on like a shot and we now.
28:06
Have a GD. F actually pretty well.
28:09
Complete in Finland, and there are plans for others in places
28:15
like France and Canada. They're a bit farther on, I
28:18
think, than we are, but we're doing the best we can.
28:23
There's a lot of debate. About where you can.
28:25
Put these particular facilities. And I think the main thing is
28:30
you've got to have the right rock type and that means
28:34
building in inactive. Geologies which will restrict.
28:39
Groundwater flow. You don't want water flowing
28:43
through radioactive waste. And the main preference.
28:46
Therefore is for salt, it's for halide Sykes, for it's, it's for
28:51
clay, or it's for Hard Rock such as.
28:53
Granite, which is usually. Not heavily fractured and
28:58
because of the timescale of the the GDF which is.
29:02
Probably from now to when it's actually closed.
29:04
About 180 years to finish to replace.
29:08
All the foreseeable. Waste, and it may be for.
29:12
Some of the waste. It has to be there for many
29:14
thousands of years. It inevitably means that it's.
29:19
About as a project. Reducing uncertainties and
29:23
going. Back to it, especially.
29:24
In the safety case and it's. Clear as I've already.
29:29
Mentioned at least under. Government policies.
29:32
The inventory of Radioactive. Waste if.
29:35
Nuclear continues to grow. Will itself grow.
29:39
So there are interesting things about that.
29:42
I think as well it's worth. Saying there are challenges.
29:45
Having said that, with producing a geological disposal facility,
29:50
there's a whole set of hoops that have to be jumped through.
29:56
First in placement of waste for example in a GDF has recently
30:00
been put back from the twenty 40s to the 20 fifties and the
30:05
high level waste will only begin to be in place from 2075.
30:08
So we're talking. Really about a long time scale
30:13
at the. Same time, the sighting policy
30:15
is another challenge. It.
30:16
Relies on what's called. Volunteerism, that is.
30:19
That a community has. Basically to say yes.
30:22
And that means there has. To be a test of public support
30:25
which allows a. Community to provide an opinion.
30:28
On whether a. GDF can be cited in its area and
30:32
if that opinion is negative. It's off.
30:35
Simple as that. Following on from the process of
30:39
working with a successful community to.
30:43
Achieve a successful test of public support.
30:46
And then you've. Got all.
30:47
Kinds of other things you need to.
30:48
Do for example boreholes you have to get all the requisite.
30:51
Consents and safety permits. And you also.
30:55
Had to get a development consent.
30:57
Order because the GDF. Would be a nationally
30:59
significant. Infrastructure project and
31:01
that's what you have to do. And then of course, all of these
31:06
kind of things when you add them.
31:07
Together first in. Placement of waste in the 20
31:11
fifties to final closure from now, that's about 180 years.
31:17
And then one final challenge. There's enormous.
31:19
Skill shortages in nuclear. At the moment.
31:22
Because so much is going. On and that is not.
31:25
A trivial issue actually, but the.
31:27
Government is doing things about that.
31:29
And so actually are many of the. Private companies we started.
31:34
Our conversation today talking about image, about public
31:37
perceptions, nuclear strikes me as one of these industries where
31:41
there's probably a lot of misconceptions and myths about
31:46
the the about the industry. What would you say are those big
31:50
myths? And maybe you could set a few
31:52
straight forwards today. Yeah.
31:54
Yeah, well, I think the main one is.
31:55
Basically radiation. Is seen by many people per
31:59
southeast is dangerous. But you have to be really
32:02
careful about this. Because radiation is something
32:04
we all experience in our daily lives as natural background is
32:07
that people will tell you in in all sorts of places they always
32:11
love the. Example that even bananas give.
32:13
Off some kind of radiation going on from that.
32:18
Of course, another thing is that not all radioactive material is
32:21
being used for bad purposes. There's nuclear power, of
32:25
course. That's important in its own.
32:27
Way and it's carbon free but. Also, it's worth remembering.
32:31
All of the medical uses of of nuclear.
32:35
Research. Reactors and psychrotrons.
32:39
That are used then. In scanners, some medical.
32:43
Procedures and so on, but that isn't to.
32:46
Say of course. It's once trying to.
32:48
Kind of minimise the fact that the radioactive way.
32:51
Somebody is certainly. Extremely problematic, but it is
32:55
to. Say that you.
32:56
Can overdo it. Finally, of course, there's the
33:00
secrecy myth, the myth that somehow all of the all of this
33:04
is. Kind of taking.
33:05
Place behind closed doors, and so on and so forth.
33:11
I don't know whether that was. True or not?
33:14
But I don't think it's true now. If you most people.
33:18
Are just amazed by the amount of.
33:20
Information that's actually available online.
33:23
They don't believe in the. 1st place that.
33:25
It's there so they don't go looking for it, but it's not.
33:29
Difficult to find these. Things.
33:31
For example, the inventory of all the waste in some detail is
33:34
there from 20. Two. 2022 online and the whole
33:40
series of these kinds of different things and a lot of
33:43
the kind when you see these barriers around various nuclear
33:47
facilities and that kind of thing, that's for people's
33:50
protection. Let me be very clear about that
33:54
and was trying to make sure that you don't have people wandering
33:57
around where they shouldn't be. Nigel, it's been.
34:02
A pleasure to have you on the podcast.
34:03
Thank you so much for your time. And maybe we'll invite you back
34:06
in a few years to see how some of these things are getting on.
34:09
And we wish you and the committee well with your task.
34:13
OK, Adam, thank. You very much.
34:14
It's been enjoyable talking to you thanks to Adam and.
34:26
Nigel for taking time out to share their conversation with
34:28
the APM Podcast. Don't forget to rate and review
34:31
us wherever you get your podcasts.
34:34
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34:37
gov.uk. And if you want to get in touch
34:39
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34:42
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34:55
That's it for this episode. Thanks again for listening.