Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / TLC REALITY STAR BUSTED ON CHILD PORN JOSH DUGGAR DEMANDS FREEDOM ON LEGAL TECHNICALITY

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TLC REALITY STAR BUSTED ON CHILD PORN JOSH DUGGAR DEMANDS FREEDOM ON LEGAL TECHNICALITY · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Josh Douger. Remember him the
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Speaker 1: former reality TV star Josh Duger and the Big Happy Family.
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Speaker 1: Duger hires a Chicago based lawyer that represented freak R
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Speaker 1: Kelly to have his conviction vacated. This as his wife,
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Speaker 1: Anna Duger, returns to social media for the first time
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Speaker 1: in five years, her husband Josh festering behind bars. I'm
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. First of all, let's talk
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Speaker 1: about Anna Douger. She makes her very first appearance on
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Speaker 1: social media in five years with a brand new blonde hairstyle.
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Speaker 1: She is the wife of the disgraced nineteen Kids in
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Speaker 1: Counting star Josh Aduger. He's now serving a twelve and
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Speaker 1: a half year term on child porn ew She popped
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Speaker 1: up on social media plugging her puppy breeding business. She
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Speaker 1: is a mother of seven. I'd explain this to your children. Oh,
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Speaker 1: daddy's away in jail on child porn. She's stayed out
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Speaker 1: of spotlight since her husband's conviction, but now she's reportedly
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Speaker 1: charging two thousand dollars per puppy. She looked a lot
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Speaker 1: better than she did the last time we saw her
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Speaker 1: weathering the trial of her husband. But now let's get
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Speaker 1: down to it. Josh Duger hires a high profile lawyer,
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Speaker 1: the same lawyer that represented sex freak, sex trafficker former
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Speaker 1: famous musician R Kelly.
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Speaker 2: Attorney Bo Brindley is arguing Dougger's trial was unfair. At
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Speaker 2: an appeal hearing last month, Dugger appeared virtually Prosecutors have
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Speaker 2: argued that this appeal was filed after the deadline. The
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Speaker 2: court is deciding whether this appeal can proceed. The current
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Speaker 2: motion alleges prosecutorial misconduct, misleading forensic evidence, and claims that
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Speaker 2: evidence was withheld. This is Dougger's fourth and final appeal.
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Speaker 2: His previous attempts to vacate the conviction, including appeals to
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Speaker 2: the Eighth US Circuit Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court,
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Speaker 2: have been denied.
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Speaker 1: Let's, as we say in court, refresh our recollection on
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Speaker 1: the Josh Dugger trial. Josh our oldest be.
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Speaker 3: Mary Hannah, and they had our first grandchildren.
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Speaker 1: Josh Duger is charged with child pornography. Joining me an
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Speaker 1: all star panel Glenn Bard, retired Pennsylvania State Troops First Class.
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Speaker 1: Now this is the important part. Computer crime investigations. That's
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Speaker 1: why we need to talk to Glenn Bard, US veteran
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Speaker 1: Operation Desert Storm egos on and on pat Tech Digital.
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Speaker 1: You can find them at pactech dot com. Sarah G.
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Speaker 1: West excuse me, Doctor Sarah G. West, forensics psychiatrist specializing
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Speaker 1: in sexually deviant behavior and Associate Professor of Psychiatry, Case
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Speaker 1: Western Reserve University School of Medicine. It's a lot to
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Speaker 1: take in because I've learned, doctor West, that very often
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Speaker 1: we think we know people by seeing them all the
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Speaker 1: time on TV and nineteen accounting ran a really long time.
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Speaker 1: I understand on TLC, and it wasn't just the mom
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Speaker 1: and dad. There are these innocent child figures that you
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Speaker 1: attached to, and when you watch it, every single episode
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Speaker 1: we started identifying with them. Look, I can't tell you
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Speaker 1: what I went through when Monk, I don't know if
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Speaker 1: you ever saw that went off the air. He was
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Speaker 1: a detective with all sorts of emotional and mental disorders.
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Speaker 1: I actually missed Monk. So when you attached to these people,
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Speaker 1: it's very hard for you, the viewer or a jurrr
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Speaker 1: to think they could do anything wrong. Doctor West.
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Speaker 4: Sure, so television shows, of course, have the benefit of
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Speaker 4: leaving things on the editing room floor. They get to
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Speaker 4: project an image of what they want you to see,
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Speaker 4: rather than what is actually going on behind the scenes,
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Speaker 4: which they may or may not know about.
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Speaker 1: You know, what is that feeling of familiarity that we
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Speaker 1: think we know that person when really we don't.
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Speaker 4: Sure, I don't think we really know anyone.
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Speaker 5: You know.
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Speaker 1: I noticed it, I guess the first time during the
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Speaker 1: aj Simpson trial, because the jurors really thought they knew Simpson.
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Speaker 1: Little did they know that my former co anchor Johnny
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Speaker 1: Cock and others had gone through Simpson's house and completely redecorated,
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Speaker 1: regarding private photos, all sorts of art. So when the
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Speaker 1: jurors walked through, they saw a completely different aspect of Simpson.
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Speaker 1: I guess it wasn't an aspect of Simpsons. It wasn't
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Speaker 1: even real, but it fit with what they thought they knew. Guys,
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Speaker 1: we're talking about Josh Duger, thirty three year old father
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Speaker 1: of multiple children, himself on trial for child pornography. I
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Speaker 1: want to go first to glen Bard regarding what we
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Speaker 1: know about Douger's computer, but the counts here seemed to
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Speaker 1: indicate that he went through quite a lot to download
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Speaker 1: the porn. It's my understanding, Glen Bard, former Pennsylvania state trooper,
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Speaker 1: first class computer crime investigations expert, that he had all
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Speaker 1: sorts of software on his computer at work at the
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Speaker 1: used car lot so it would not alert his wife
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Speaker 1: he was looking at not just inappropriate sex material, but
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Speaker 1: illegal sex material.
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Speaker 6: I want I understand what he had was a dual
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Speaker 6: boot system, and what that means is that it had
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Speaker 6: a Windows opening system, but he could then boot into
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Speaker 6: a Linux partition. And the reason why people do that
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Speaker 6: not just this reason, but one of the reasons is
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Speaker 6: because when it boots into the Linux partition, all the software,
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Speaker 6: the monitoring software, the networking software won't work on that
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Speaker 6: Linux partition side.
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Speaker 1: Okay, wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, Glen Bard.
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Speaker 1: I hate to interrupt you midstream, but a lot of
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Speaker 1: people don't know what you're saying because you're way way
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Speaker 1: way defcom for on this. You've got to talk not
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Speaker 1: computer language, but regular people talk. So when I say,
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Speaker 1: I believe from the facts, the state is trying to
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Speaker 1: prove that Josh Duger from nineteen in County on TLC
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Speaker 1: had special software on his computer so his wife Anna
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Speaker 1: at home would not be alerted. He was looking at
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Speaker 1: child porn. So let's start with something easy for non
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Speaker 1: techies like myself to get their mind around. What is
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Speaker 1: an alert on your computer that will notify somebody else,
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Speaker 1: a third party, that you're doing something really naughty? What
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Speaker 1: is that?
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Speaker 6: There is monitoring software that will alert people when something
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Speaker 6: like pornography is.
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Speaker 5: Being viewed, or certain websites or being access Some.
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Speaker 6: People can use it to monitor their children, and other
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Speaker 6: people use it for like this circumstance, maybe a person
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Speaker 6: who had a history.
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Speaker 1: He did you say, some people use it to monitor
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Speaker 1: their children like we have Bark b a Ark, and
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Speaker 1: I had never heard of it before, but it alerts
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Speaker 1: you when your child goes onto a website that's bad
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Speaker 1: for them. And let me tell you what happened the
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Speaker 1: other day. Listen to this doctor West. So I got
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Speaker 1: an alert that my son John David was into self harm. Well,
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Speaker 1: I nearly did a backflip. I went on immediately because
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Speaker 1: Bark had alerted me. Guess what it was that week?
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Speaker 1: And I was there when it happened. He was defending
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Speaker 1: a goal. He was goalie in a soccer game at
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Speaker 1: school and he dived almost sideways and his arm went
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Speaker 1: through the net, and he was so proud that he
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Speaker 1: had an injury. It was a bruise. So he took
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Speaker 1: a picture of his bruise that he got and by
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Speaker 1: the way, he did defend it. They did not score,
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Speaker 1: the other team did not score, and he was so
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Speaker 1: proud that he was showing it off. He took a
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Speaker 1: picture of it with cell phone and sent it to
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Speaker 1: some of his friends. Look what I got defending the
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Speaker 1: go And Bart was so sensitive it picked up on
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Speaker 1: that bruise and him taking a picture of it. It
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Speaker 1: alerted me, is you know so? I found that really interesting? Uh,
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Speaker 1: doctor West, that that it's so sensitive to pick up
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Speaker 1: things just like that. Have you ever encountered that in
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Speaker 1: your psychiatric practice.
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Speaker 4: I have never seen the monitor software it used, but
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Speaker 4: certainly self harm is a huge issue with our adolescent
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Speaker 4: population now so great that you are on top of that,
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Speaker 4: I'm telling you sorry.
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Speaker 1: Okay, So let me ask you back to you, Glenn Bard,
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Speaker 1: When you say that it's like parents who monitor their children,
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Speaker 1: what do you mean by that?
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Speaker 5: What I mean is the software itself.
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Speaker 7: What it does is it can be set.
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Speaker 5: Up to just monitor activities the person's activities, whether it
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Speaker 5: be spending too much time on social media or accessing
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Speaker 5: websites that contain pornography, and what it will do with
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Speaker 5: to be able to notify a person, and it can
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Speaker 5: be anything from just sending an email out or sending
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Speaker 5: your Internet history to an email account, and that lets
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Speaker 5: the person be able.
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Speaker 6: To know what's been going on on that computer system.
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Speaker 1: Okay, it's a dichotomy, and I want to talk to
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Speaker 1: you about this, doctor West, that they present such a
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Speaker 1: wholesome image, but yet we're finding out that, according to
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Speaker 1: the state, Josh Duger downloaded child porn and.
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Speaker 4: That is something people often do in the privacy of
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Speaker 4: their own home that others may have no idea about.
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Speaker 1: Actually, what's happening in the courtroom can be very confusing
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Speaker 1: if you're not a high tech computer guru like Glenn
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Speaker 1: bard Is. But what's happening in that courtroom right now,
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Speaker 1: our gurrrs are getting an overload a computer tech education
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Speaker 1: and child porn. Take a listen to our friend Craig
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Speaker 1: O'Neil at THHV eleven.
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Speaker 8: Bobby Holt, a longtime friend of Dougger's, to test the
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Speaker 8: prosecution claims in two thousand and three, Dugger told Holt
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Speaker 8: on several occasions he molested as many as four minors
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Speaker 8: for several years. Dugger's lawyer say Holt should not testify
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Speaker 8: because the things he said were at a time that
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Speaker 8: she was acting as his spiritual advisor, with the understanding
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Speaker 8: it would be confidential.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen now to our friends at People magazine
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Speaker 1: as describing how Josh Dogger's computer at work not home
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Speaker 1: was quote riddled with illicit material. I'm talking about child
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Speaker 1: porn with children as young as seven, may be younger.
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Speaker 3: The program made it possible that while the public facing
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Speaker 3: portion of the computer appeared to be mostly business related,
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Speaker 3: the hard drive had in fact been split into another.
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Speaker 3: Experts testimony described it as a separate computer on a computer.
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Speaker 1: You know, I understand it was something called a Linux
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Speaker 1: or Linux partition, which is a sophistic piece of software
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Speaker 1: creating a separate workspace on your computer. You install it
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Speaker 1: as software on your computer, but then you open it
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Speaker 1: up as if it's an entirely different device. What about that,
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Speaker 1: Glenn Barr, Does that make any sense to you?
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Speaker 5: Some people do that. What happens? They describe it very well.
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Speaker 5: They cut the hard drive in two and what will
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Speaker 5: happen is you can be using the window side, which
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Speaker 5: we all use for work in many cases, but when
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Speaker 5: you want to do something that you don't want the
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Speaker 5: windows side to see, or you just want to go
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Speaker 5: into a different operating system, that machine can be turned
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Speaker 5: off and turned back on and this time go into
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Speaker 5: that Linux operating system. It's its own operating system, and
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Speaker 5: it gives you truly like a second computer. It's the
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Speaker 5: same keyboard, the same monitor, the same housing itself, but
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Speaker 5: it's a completely different operating system. And when you do that,
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Speaker 5: what it allows it to do is any type of
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Speaker 5: controls that would be in place on the window side
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Speaker 5: won't be in control on that Linux side.
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Speaker 1: We're talking about Josh Duger, thirty three years old, now
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Speaker 1: reality star and a former hit series on TLC nineteen
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Speaker 1: Kids in Counting. It was a staple on TLC, a
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Speaker 1: highly rating network to Jackie Howard joining us from Crime
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Speaker 1: Online dot Com. Prosecutors have said in open court, and
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Speaker 1: these are their words, not mine, that Duger downloaded images
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Speaker 1: and videos of young girls as young as seven years
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Speaker 1: old being quote abused, violated, and exploited, including files named
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Speaker 1: such names as Daisies Destruction, Playboy Sweetie, and Pedo Mom.
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Speaker 1: I understand that there was a Little Right Police Department
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Speaker 1: special task force called Torrential Downpour. It was an undercover
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Speaker 1: online investigation to unmasked pedophiles and perverts. I understand that
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Speaker 1: there was footage of girls aged seven and nine being
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Speaker 1: raped by an adult male and sixty five images at
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Speaker 1: least of a young girl seven or eight years old
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Speaker 1: being sexually abused and then placed in a dog channel.
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Speaker 1: Jackie Howard, is it true that several of the jurors
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Speaker 1: actually looked away as snippets of this material was shown
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Speaker 1: to them on monitors?
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Speaker 7: That is true, Nancy. Obviously it's a very difficult situation
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Speaker 7: and that is not easy material to look at. But
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Speaker 7: we also know that Josh Duper's family was affected. In fact,
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Speaker 7: his wife actually got us a lumped out of the.
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Speaker 4: Courtroom in tears at that time.
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Speaker 1: What does it mean, Glen Bard? The court heard that Kalamer,
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Speaker 1: who was with the Little Rock Police, tipped off federal
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Speaker 1: investigators and they trace the quote IPY address to Josh
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Speaker 1: Duggers used car dealership wholesale motor cars. What does that
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Speaker 1: mean to trace an IPY address what is that?
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Speaker 5: So the IP address is the Internet protocol and what
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Speaker 5: that is is a number that will identify a network
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Speaker 5: on the Internet. Kind of like your phone number will
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Speaker 5: identify your series of phones at your home. The same
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Speaker 5: thing happens to the Internet. It's just a series of
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Speaker 5: numbers that will identify a network access the Internet through
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Speaker 5: one access point or a router. So what they do
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Speaker 5: is they can take that IP address and it will
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Speaker 5: tell them the ISD Internet Service provider. And what they
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Speaker 5: do then is serve legal process on an ISP, who
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Speaker 5: will then in current tell them where that network comes
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Speaker 5: back to physically the physical location on that IP address
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Speaker 5: at that time.
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Speaker 1: You know what I find really interesting Jackie Howard joining
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Speaker 1: some crime online when the FEDS came in and grabbed
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Speaker 1: his desktop at work Wholesale Motors. He said, without having
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Speaker 1: any idea why they took the computer. Quote, has someone
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Speaker 1: downloaded child porn? Okay, you've heard me say this till
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Speaker 1: I'm sure you're blue in the face.
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Speaker 7: Me.
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Speaker 1: Thanks, thou dost protest too much. It's like you walk
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Speaker 1: by a cop at the mall and you say, hey,
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Speaker 1: I was that part of that smashing grab and nobody
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Speaker 1: asked that's what he did, Jackie. Has someone downloaded child pornography.
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Speaker 7: It is what he did, Nancy. And given his history
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Speaker 7: that he has admitted in the best to having an
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Speaker 7: issue in having been through a treatment center during his marriage,
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Speaker 7: he was very open with his life. And they actually
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Speaker 7: installed on that computer a program called Covenant Eyes. They
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Speaker 7: subscribed to this in two thousd thirteen, so we're looking
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Speaker 7: at about eight years ago. And this program would alert
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Speaker 7: his wife to any adult Internet usage and it would
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Speaker 7: report that back to Anna Douger. Now, the information that
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Speaker 7: was set up, as you mentioned, on the links system,
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Speaker 7: was in a partition and had a password. The password
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Speaker 7: was the same password that he used to do his
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Speaker 7: banking information. So it's very unlikely that anybody hacked in
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Speaker 7: and decided to use the exact same password for what
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Speaker 7: he did his banking.
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Speaker 1: With Crime Stories with Nancy Gray, former reality star of
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Speaker 1: nineteen Kids, Accounting Josh Duggar hires R. Kelly's lawyer, Bo Brindley,
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Speaker 1: even though he previously claimed he was flat broke. Why
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Speaker 1: is he hiring a high profile lawyer because he wants
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Speaker 1: to get out of jail?
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Speaker 2: Of course, Nancy, Apparently Dugger doesn't want out of jail
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Speaker 2: bad enough to follow the rules. Dougger has faced disciplinary
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Speaker 2: action and spent time in solitary confinement that has impacted
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Speaker 2: his good time credit, which has now extended his jail stay. Originally,
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Speaker 2: he was scheduled to be released in August twenty thirty two. Now,
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Speaker 2: for the third extension, Dougger's scheduled release date is February second,
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Speaker 2: twenty thirty three. He had approximately two months added to
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Speaker 2: his previous release date. His cousin Amy claimed one extension
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Speaker 2: was due to a rules violation that resulted in him
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Speaker 2: being placed, as I said, in solitary confinement. In a
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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three disciplinary action, he possessed an illegal cell phone.
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Speaker 1: While the former Nineteen Kids in Counting reality star tries
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Speaker 1: to bite and claw his way out of jail, hiring
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Speaker 1: a brand new lawyer, the jury in this case will
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Speaker 1: not soon forget the evidence. Doctor Sarah G. West, you're
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Speaker 1: the MD in psychiatry. Help me out. First. I want
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Speaker 1: to talk to you about the wife, okay, and this
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Speaker 1: is not her fault. She's not the one downloading child porn.
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Speaker 1: According to prosecutors, I mean sick child porn where you
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Speaker 1: rate a seven year old girl and then put her
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Speaker 1: in a dog kennel. I could say more, but I'm not.
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Speaker 1: I'm not. So why does the wife They've got seven
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Speaker 1: children together. Why does a wife stay with somebody that
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Speaker 1: she knows? Sarah addicted to not just pornography, but child pornography.
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Speaker 4: Well, I would suggest as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
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Speaker 4: or the psychiatry Bible would tell us that looking at
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Speaker 4: this kind of material as an illness, and you know,
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Speaker 4: if you view it through that lens, then you would
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Speaker 4: maybe be more tempted to stick around and see somebody
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Speaker 4: through their illness.
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry seeing it as an illness, Okay, I understand that,
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Speaker 1: But have you ever known doctor West? With me? Sarah G. West,
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Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist. You can find her at Forensic Psychiatry MD
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Speaker 1: dot com Sarah West. And all the years that I
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Speaker 1: prosecuted child molestation and sex offenses, I never saw one
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Speaker 1: child molest get rehabilitated. It's in their DNA. I don't
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Speaker 1: think they can change it. If you disagree, tell me why.
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Speaker 4: Well, I do think there are some treatment options available
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Speaker 4: that may make it less likely that they would re
20:45
Speaker 4: engage in that kind of behavior.
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Speaker 1: You mean, like Paslov's dogs. In other words, they still
20:52
Speaker 1: want to do the naughty thing, but they know they're
20:55
Speaker 1: going to get zapped if they do it. The impulse
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Speaker 1: to do it never goes away, but they can be
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Speaker 1: trained not to do it. Is that what you're saying?
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Speaker 4: That is a very psychological approach to that, And yes,
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Speaker 4: I think that is quite possible.
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Speaker 1: How is that different from what you said?
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Speaker 4: I would say that it's probably a little more complex.
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Speaker 4: I think that you could probably decrease the impulses as well,
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Speaker 4: but that would be the more challenging piece. Controlling the
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Speaker 4: behavior is absolutely the thing that we need to be
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Speaker 4: mindful of, and there are a couple of techniques that
21:28
Speaker 4: psychiatrists and psychologists both utilize to do that. The first
21:31
Speaker 4: is therapy. The main stay of therapy is victim empathy.
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Speaker 4: I think that that is a nice way to teach
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Speaker 4: people that what they're doing hurts other folks. And the second,
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Speaker 4: probably more intrusive form, is medication. Medication can decrease such
21:46
Speaker 4: drive and decrease somebody's likelihood that they would be able
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Speaker 4: to physically act on those inpucts.
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Speaker 1: So basically you're saying, let me just put it in
21:57
Speaker 1: regular people talk decrease sex sect activity, so the perp
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Speaker 1: can't get an erection.
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Speaker 4: That is one of the methods. Yes, Another method would
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Speaker 4: be the utilization of a medication that's real commons. They're
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Speaker 4: SSRIs selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. More commonly people might know prozac, zoloft.
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Speaker 4: Those are actually medications that decrease sex drive, decreased sexual desire.
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Speaker 4: It's a side effect. We can use that side effect
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Speaker 4: to treat people who have unusual sexual impulses.
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Speaker 1: So you say unusual sex impulses, I call them felonies.
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Speaker 1: But doctor West, so your one treatment to decrease the
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Speaker 1: urge for child sex or child porn is to dope
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Speaker 1: them up. But the minute they get off the drugs,
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Speaker 1: they're right back at it. My question is, is there
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Speaker 1: a way, to your knowledge, to cure them, to stop
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Speaker 1: them forever having the impulse to have sex with children,
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Speaker 1: which is rape or look at child porn to make
23:04
Speaker 1: that urge go away.
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Speaker 4: I do not think there's a way to entirely make
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Speaker 4: that urge go away.
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Speaker 1: So doctor West, like it or not, I think you
23:13
Speaker 1: agree with me because I've never seen a child molester.
23:17
Speaker 1: To my chagrin, ever, be cured. When I was a
23:23
Speaker 1: new prosecutor, I was besieged by defense attorneys that wanted
23:27
Speaker 1: me to send their client to treatment facilities instead of
23:32
Speaker 1: to jail. I did it once. It was a mistake.
23:36
Speaker 1: It was a mistake. I never did it again because
23:39
Speaker 1: I learned the hard way. I learned the hard way.
23:43
Speaker 1: It doesn't work. I don't think it works.
23:46
Speaker 4: I do think it depends on insights. If people recognize
23:49
Speaker 4: they have a problem and are motivated to solve it,
23:52
Speaker 4: just like any other medical condition diabetes, high blood pressure,
23:56
Speaker 4: then they can do the things that are necessary to
23:59
Speaker 4: keep it under control.
24:01
Speaker 1: You know, Jackie, I want to go back to you, Jackie. Howard.
24:04
Speaker 1: Douggar says he was quote his word's not mine, vaguely
24:08
Speaker 1: familiar with the password Intel nineteen eighty eight, prompting a
24:13
Speaker 1: brief but furious exchange of Roberts, who accused him of
24:18
Speaker 1: hiding information. So long story short, he admits that's his password.
24:24
Speaker 1: He knows it's his password, and what was he using
24:26
Speaker 1: the password for? Jackie Howard?
24:28
Speaker 7: He was using it to access his banking information.
24:32
Speaker 1: And good lord, I'm a j D, not a DDes,
24:37
Speaker 1: not a pool teeth. I can certainly try Jackie Howard.
24:39
Speaker 1: He was also using it to look at videos of
24:43
Speaker 1: seven to eight year old girls being sexually abused, i e.
24:47
Speaker 1: Raped and put in dog kennels. Take a listen to it. Okay,
24:51
Speaker 1: what go ahead?
24:52
Speaker 7: And if you did not have access to that password
24:55
Speaker 7: for the petition on his computery, no one else could act.
25:00
Speaker 1: Says that no one else can access that. Guys, I
25:04
Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to our cut thirty two.
25:07
Speaker 1: This is Emma Claybrook at forty twenty nine News.
25:11
Speaker 9: Before the forensics expert took the stand, the jury heard
25:14
Speaker 9: from three former Dougger family friends. The final witness testified
25:18
Speaker 9: that Dugger allegedly touched the private parts of four juveniles
25:21
Speaker 9: in two thousand and three when he was fifteen.
25:24
Speaker 1: So let me understand this, doctor West. The prosecutor brought
25:28
Speaker 1: in previous examples of him molesting his sisters to show motive,
25:37
Speaker 1: and the sisters were young. They were under age at
25:39
Speaker 1: the time, considered children in the eyes of the law,
25:42
Speaker 1: to show motive for downloading child porn. Does that make
25:45
Speaker 1: sense to you, doctor West? It does make sense.
25:48
Speaker 4: But we would look at someone's past behavior to get
25:52
Speaker 4: a better sense of what's going on currently. Absolutely, something
25:55
Speaker 4: that I do when I work with folks who have
25:57
Speaker 4: a history of sex offense has examined what has happened
26:00
Speaker 4: in the past to get a better understanding of what's
26:02
Speaker 4: going on right now.
26:04
Speaker 1: I don't understand, doctor West, how when you've already been
26:08
Speaker 1: in trouble for sexulated crimes, that you're willing to risk
26:13
Speaker 1: your livelihood, your marriage, losing your seven children because if
26:20
Speaker 1: he's convicted of child porn, he's not going to have
26:22
Speaker 1: access or visitation, unfettered visitation with his children. That's not
26:26
Speaker 1: going to happen. No, You're right, why would a perp
26:31
Speaker 1: risk it all?
26:32
Speaker 4: So it is a difficult pill to swallow. But again
26:35
Speaker 4: I'll go back to the concept that this is an illness.
26:43
Speaker 8: Crime.
26:44
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, reality star of Nineteen Kids in
26:52
Speaker 1: Counting hires a lawyer who defended r Kelly in his
26:57
Speaker 1: jailhouse bid to have his conviction for grown out. But
27:02
Speaker 1: I remember the evidence, gonn have you seen this before
27:07
Speaker 1: where people that download child porn go through extreme and
27:14
Speaker 1: elaborate measures to hide it.
27:17
Speaker 5: Absolutely, a lot of times what I've seen personally from
27:21
Speaker 5: my investigations that child porn a lot of times it
27:24
Speaker 5: will be something that's very important to them, and like
27:28
Speaker 5: the same way that you protect things very important to
27:30
Speaker 5: you where to be, you know, your children and sort
27:33
Speaker 5: like that, that's what they do with this sort of stuff.
27:36
Speaker 5: I've seen almost identical things where people will go through
27:39
Speaker 5: great lengths about hiding it or even I remember one
27:42
Speaker 5: case in particular, I had a person who had his
27:45
Speaker 5: family living in utter fields in a house. The house
27:48
Speaker 5: is deplorable. It was I mean, I felt terrible just
27:51
Speaker 5: walking through there. But when you walked into that guy's
27:53
Speaker 5: computer room, he actually kept covers and cloth on the
27:58
Speaker 5: computers to keep them clean and safe. He had his
28:01
Speaker 5: children living in utter absolute fills, but those computer systems
28:05
Speaker 5: were protected and covered and kept safe. And the reason
28:09
Speaker 5: why was because it was on them. Was SELT pornography.
28:11
Speaker 5: It was kind of like almost the focal point of
28:14
Speaker 5: everything that he had in life. So this is not
28:18
Speaker 5: surprising to hear the sort of thing taking to la thing.
28:20
Speaker 1: To say it, you know, another saying doctor, yeah, jump in.
28:24
Speaker 7: One of the things that it's also important to remember
28:27
Speaker 7: that in regards for this limits precision that he had
28:29
Speaker 7: on his computer, not only that he had software that
28:33
Speaker 7: would also circumvent any search and make sure that the
28:37
Speaker 7: monitoring program that he had in his wife that installed
28:40
Speaker 7: on the computer would not work and would not notify her.
28:44
Speaker 1: So he went to extreme measures. And my question to you,
28:48
Speaker 1: doctor Sarah West, is, I don't know quite how to
28:53
Speaker 1: say this, but sometimes it seems to me that the
28:58
Speaker 1: effort that canving the scams, the secrecy, all of the
29:06
Speaker 1: labyrinth they go through to hide something, adds to the
29:12
Speaker 1: thrill of it. You know, Like, let's see people that
29:16
Speaker 1: are cheating on their spouse, they go through all this
29:19
Speaker 1: drama to register at a hotel under a different name
29:22
Speaker 1: and pay in cash and wear a hat and sunglasses
29:26
Speaker 1: when they go. It's crazy to me, but to them
29:31
Speaker 1: that's part of the excitement of it.
29:33
Speaker 4: Potentially, Yeah, and there is a whole community out there
29:36
Speaker 4: on the dark web who exchanges this information. You know,
29:40
Speaker 4: once you've worked with a couple of these offenders, you
29:42
Speaker 4: get a better sense of how deep this goes.
29:46
Speaker 1: Guys, we are talking about a reality TV star Josh
29:51
Speaker 1: Duger straight back out to Jackie Howard, Crime Online dot
29:55
Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter, Jackie, you and I have taught in
29:59
Speaker 1: depth with for instance, our friend Will call her Alicia,
30:04
Speaker 1: Alicia Kay who was raped and molested as a young child,
30:11
Speaker 1: and her molester took hundreds and hundreds of photos and
30:16
Speaker 1: video images of her. And to this day, they're still
30:20
Speaker 1: being traded on the dark web, and how much, to
30:24
Speaker 1: this day, years decades later, it still upsets these victims.
30:32
Speaker 1: These images are being traded like baseball cards. Jackie Howard, they.
30:37
Speaker 7: Lauren Nancy and the ring that these pictures get passed
30:41
Speaker 7: in on the dark web and through message boards by
30:46
Speaker 7: pedophiles and six of these people who watch porn and
30:51
Speaker 7: it's just a circle, and they enjoy sharing it. It's
30:55
Speaker 7: almost like a hobby in a way.
30:57
Speaker 5: They enjoy sharing.
30:59
Speaker 7: What they have done, what they've seen with other people
31:02
Speaker 7: who are abusers.
31:04
Speaker 1: If I were in court right now, I would stay,
31:07
Speaker 1: look you dead in the eyes, and tell you what's
31:11
Speaker 1: on those images. The videos I've already told you about
31:15
Speaker 1: the little girls being raped, one little girl being molested
31:19
Speaker 1: and thrown in a dog pin. There's so many more
31:22
Speaker 1: that are even more graphic of little children being sexually
31:28
Speaker 1: abused and forced to pose in certain ways in front
31:32
Speaker 1: of the camera. Those children will never be the same
31:40
Speaker 1: I've worked with. I can't even count how many molestation
31:44
Speaker 1: victims children. They go on to live, to have a job,
31:48
Speaker 1: maybe have a family. They're never ever the same, and
31:55
Speaker 1: these pervs are trading these sex images child porn like
32:01
Speaker 1: their baseball cards. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace
32:07
Speaker 1: signing off goodnight,