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Bryan Kohberger Plots to Have Murder Charges Thrown Out · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Will it never end with
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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger. In the last hours, we learned that Brian Coburger,
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Speaker 1: charged in their murders of four beautiful Idaho University students,
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Speaker 1: is now trying to stop the trial, claiming the grand
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Speaker 1: jury indictment is somehow defective, putting the skids on this
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Speaker 1: case going forward while the families all wait for justice.
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Speaker 1: Not only do we learn of the maneuvering techniques of
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Speaker 1: Brian Coberger and his defense team, but now there seems
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Speaker 1: to be unstoppable evidence proving Coburger was there the night
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Speaker 1: of the merged, not just there, but in the bedrooms
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Speaker 1: where these victims were murdered. I'm Nscy Grace, this is
1:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at
1:08
Speaker 1: Fox Station and Serious XM one eleven. First of all,
1:11
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at crime Online.
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Speaker 2: Coberger's attorney wants the state to provide the full record
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Speaker 2: of the grand jury proceedings, and Taylor says information from
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Speaker 2: the proceedings are necessary to Coburger's defense. The court document states,
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Speaker 2: in part, a grand jury was impaneled at a time
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Speaker 2: when the small community of Moscow, Idaho, had been exposed
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Speaker 2: to six months of intense local, national, and international media coverage.
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Speaker 2: Whether a fair and impartial panel of grand jurors was
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Speaker 2: assembled to mid intense media coverage is a significant question
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Speaker 2: the defense must evaluate. Coberger's legal team is entitled to
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Speaker 2: the transcript of the grand jury, but will there be
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Speaker 2: more information such as people who were subpoena or anything
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Speaker 2: set off the record. Taylor says the move is intended
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Speaker 2: to quote preserve his right to contest the indictment.
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Speaker 1: Quote that's right, legal maneuvering to stop this trial from
2:01
Speaker 1: going forward, just as the investigation seemingly is dang steam.
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Speaker 1: But now we hear more from our friends ak HQ.
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Speaker 3: The document filed this week is called a motion to
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Speaker 3: stay proceedings. Coburger's defense says they've requested the grand jury
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Speaker 3: evidence that led to this indictment, but say they have
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Speaker 3: not received all of it.
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Speaker 4: In other core.
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Speaker 3: Documents, prosecutors say there's a lot of evidence it'll take
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Speaker 3: time to go through, and they are fine extending timelines
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Speaker 3: for both sides to go through the information. The Coburger's
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Speaker 3: defense says they want all proceedings paused until they have
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Speaker 3: everything they can get on the Grand Jury with the
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Speaker 3: ultimate goal to challenge and they hope to overturn the indictment.
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Speaker 3: There is a hearing now set for US June twenty
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Speaker 3: seventh to discuss the timeline extension. So far, there hasn't
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Speaker 3: been any hearing set to discuss the suspension of the indictment.
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Speaker 1: So right now we understand that Brian Coberger's defense team
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Speaker 1: is trying to defeat the grand jury indictment with me
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Speaker 1: and I All Star Pound to make sense of what
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Speaker 1: we know right now. But I can tell you this delay, delay,
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Speaker 1: delay is the defense's best friend for many, many reasons.
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Speaker 1: They are going to try to fight this tooth now
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Speaker 1: and claw every way imaginable, and they're starting with attacking
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Speaker 1: the Grand jury indictment with me and All Star Pound
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Speaker 1: to make sense of what we know right now. First,
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Speaker 1: I'm want to go straight out to renowned lawyer joining
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Speaker 1: me from the Coburger Jurisdiction of Idaho, Tara Malick, partner
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Speaker 1: at Smith and Malick, former state and federal prosecutor.
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Speaker 4: Tara, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: I think what's lost in the sauce a lot of
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Speaker 1: times is that unlike a petit or regular twelve person jury.
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Speaker 1: A grand jury is often called a secret grand jury
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Speaker 1: for a reason. All right, that's simply a charging tool,
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Speaker 1: nothing more. You can put up one witness at a
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Speaker 1: grand jury this except for five minutes, and all the
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Speaker 1: grand jury has to decide is is there a question
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Speaker 1: of fact that should go to a jury.
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Speaker 4: That's really all there is.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, you're exactly right.
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Speaker 6: I mean, this grand jury was a secret grand jury
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Speaker 6: that was just looking at whether or not there was
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Speaker 6: enough there to charge Brian Kerberger for these four murders.
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Speaker 6: And they have really one job to do now. The
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Speaker 6: defense wants to, as you said, delay and slow the
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Speaker 6: process down. And one way they can do that is
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Speaker 6: go back to the root of what started this case
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Speaker 6: in the legal process, which is that grand jury indictment.
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Speaker 6: So they're going to take a look at that and
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Speaker 6: start nitpicking and saying, you know, and really looking deeply
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Speaker 6: into who was a part of this grand jury. What
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Speaker 6: was the process by which they got this group of
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Speaker 6: people together to hear the evidence and to bring it
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Speaker 6: forward and forward an indictment.
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Speaker 1: Ultimately, what is it exactly that they are looking for.
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Speaker 1: Tara Mallek is joining a high profile lawyer out of
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Speaker 1: Idaho and you know, by the end of the trial,
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Speaker 1: it's exhausting, Tara, and I'm sure you've been through it many,
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Speaker 1: many times, because every single thing is challenged, and the
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Speaker 1: defense has the right to do that under the Constitution.
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Speaker 1: If there's an ID, if there's an eyewitness ID, that
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Speaker 1: ID is challenged. If a photo array, like a photographic
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Speaker 1: lineup is showed to a witness, that's challenged. Any statement
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Speaker 1: the defendant made, that's challenge the judge. Normally they try
5:44
Speaker 1: to throw the judge off the case. At least once
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Speaker 1: or twice. They try to throw the prosecutor off the case.
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Speaker 1: I don't believe I ever had a single murder case
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Speaker 1: where the defense didn't try to throw me off the
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Speaker 1: case for whatever reason. And here we see a grand
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Speaker 1: jury challenge to put the skids on this case going forward.
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Speaker 1: What is it they hope to find, Tara? What are
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Speaker 1: they looking for? What's your best guess?
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Speaker 6: You know, I think one of our main concerns in
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Speaker 6: this case is Moscow, Idaho, where the murder has occurred,
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Speaker 6: is a very small community. It's a close knit community.
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Speaker 6: It's you know, in the northern part of Idaho. It's
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Speaker 6: a college town. It's set you know, a little bit
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Speaker 6: further away from some of the more major cities in
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Speaker 6: the state. And I think what they're looking for here
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Speaker 6: is the process by which the state went about gathering
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Speaker 6: people for and to sit on this grand jury.
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Speaker 1: Let me just digest what you're saying, so not necessarily
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Speaker 1: challenging the evidence that was put in front of the
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Speaker 1: grand jury, but challenging how the grand jury was selected.
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Speaker 4: It's usually thirty to forty ish people.
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Speaker 1: In Atlanta, in inner city Atlanta, the grand jury would meet.
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Speaker 1: They are about forty people in the grand jury. They
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Speaker 1: were taken from voter registration records, just blindly, much the
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Speaker 1: same way that juries are picked. I've been called a
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Speaker 1: grand jury and regular juries. For some reason, I was
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Speaker 1: always struck. I don't know why, but it can be
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Speaker 1: anybody that votes in that area. In New York, in Manhattan,
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Speaker 1: people were taken off the real estate tax records. If
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Speaker 1: you are living there and you own a place, you're
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Speaker 1: headed to jury duty. It can be a number of things.
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Speaker 1: But how are they selected. In Idaho, how is the
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Speaker 1: grand jury typically selected?
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Speaker 6: Well, the same way You're going to have a list
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Speaker 6: of people that are gathered from the voter registration that
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Speaker 6: are put on just like any other kind of jury roster.
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Speaker 4: How about driver's license? I forgot that one.
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Speaker 1: They can also pick it from people driver's license because
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Speaker 1: you have to puture dress on your driver's license, which
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Speaker 1: tells you the county, and this is Lata County, So
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Speaker 1: maybe they pick it through driver's license.
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Speaker 4: What about that?
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Speaker 6: Yes, I mean yes, absolutely, the issue is going to
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Speaker 6: be for this defense attorney and this defense team. I
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Speaker 6: should say not just attorney is fine. You get these
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Speaker 6: people as perspective grandeurs, But how are you needing out
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Speaker 6: the people and making sure that they're fair and unbiased
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Speaker 6: and impartial if you're pulling them. You know, from this
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Speaker 6: very small community on a case that has received a
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Speaker 6: lot of publicity, high profile murder case, everyone's hearn about it.
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Speaker 6: You know, it's likely that not only have they heard
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Speaker 6: about it, that they have some sort of connection to it.
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Speaker 6: They know someone who knows someone who is in the area.
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Speaker 5: I mean, it is really a small community here.
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Speaker 1: Well. And also, Tara, now I'm learning that even though
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Speaker 1: we had about forty people on a grand jury in
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Speaker 1: inner city Atlanta, is it true a grand jury in
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Speaker 1: Idaho is made up of sixteen or so yes, So
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Speaker 1: you know you have that issue in every trial. Do
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Speaker 1: you know anybody that's one of these witnesses and you
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Speaker 1: read out the witness list or any of you connected
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Speaker 1: to the prosecutor or the defense, or any of the
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Speaker 1: cops or anybody on the case, and invariably there's always
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Speaker 1: going to be somebody goes, oh, yeah, that's my second cousin.
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Speaker 1: When did July see them at high school graduation? You
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Speaker 1: get things like that, But that does not mean that
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Speaker 1: that grand juror cannot be fair and impartial, which is
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Speaker 1: really the issue. So right now, this is just the
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Speaker 1: beginning of many, many attacks on the state's case, and
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Speaker 1: it is going to get nasty, down and dirty by
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Speaker 1: the time this thing is over. This is just a
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Speaker 1: tiny preview of what's going to happen, the attack on
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Speaker 1: the grand jury indictment, which means the state would have
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Speaker 1: to start all over again. We're learning about this attack
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Speaker 1: on the grand jury as bombshell evidence comes forward literally
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Speaker 1: in the last three or four hours. Take a listen
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Speaker 1: to our friensic KTVB court.
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Speaker 7: Documents from the Laytak County Prosecutor's office. Just release, say,
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Speaker 7: DNA from a swab of Brian Coberger's cheek is a
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Speaker 7: statistical match to DNA found on a knife sheath left
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Speaker 7: behind at the crime scene. That knife sheath, according to
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Speaker 7: the new documents and previously known information, was found next
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Speaker 7: to the bodies of Kayleigan Zalvez and Madison Mogan, who
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Speaker 7: were sleeping in the same bed the night they were killed.
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Speaker 7: Prosecutors say the DNA is five point three seven octillion
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Speaker 7: times more likely to be Brian Coberger's than anybody else.
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Speaker 1: Okay, wait just a minute, five point three seven octillion
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Speaker 1: times more likely? What take Listen to our forensiccrime online
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Speaker 1: dot com.
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Speaker 8: One of the bombshell pieces of evidence is the fact
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Speaker 8: that Brian Coberger's DNA is a quote statistical match to
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Speaker 8: DNA found on a knife sheath at the scene. Investigators
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Speaker 8: found the kbar knife sheath face down and partially under
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Speaker 8: both Madison's body and the comforter on the bed. A
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Speaker 8: probable cause affidavit, unsealed in January, stated that the DNA
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Speaker 8: found had been matched to Coburger's father, the elder. Coburger's
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Speaker 8: DNA was recovered from trash outside the family home. A
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Speaker 8: short tandem repeat analysis was performed to develop a profile.
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Speaker 8: That profile was compared against material from Coburger's cheek swab.
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Speaker 8: The result of the comparison is a statistical match, meaning
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Speaker 8: the profile is at least five point thirty seven octillion
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Speaker 8: times more likely to be from Coburger rather than an
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Speaker 8: unrelated random person. The prosecutors have argued for sealing information
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Speaker 8: related to the use of investigative genetic genealogy. Court document
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Speaker 8: state that is needed to protect from disclosure. Quote the
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Speaker 8: names and personal information of the hundreds of innocent relatives
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Speaker 8: on the family tree, the names of the publicly available
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Speaker 8: genetic genealogy services used in certain other information.
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Speaker 1: Three things stand out to me from what we just
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Speaker 1: heard from our friends at crimeonline dot com. Number one,
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Speaker 1: the insane statistic of one out of five point thirty
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Speaker 1: seven octillion likelihood that this is not Brian Coberger's DNA.
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Speaker 4: We had to actually write that out because.
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Speaker 1: You know, there's one zero in the number ten two
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Speaker 1: zeros in one hundred, three zeros in one thousand, there
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Speaker 1: are twenty seven zeros five point three seven auctillion, All right,
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Speaker 1: that that insane number. Number Two, the location of the knife.
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Speaker 1: Did you hear what was written in the court documents?
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Speaker 1: The knife sheath found partially under Maddie's body, and the
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Speaker 1: comforter on the bed. Many people have wondered, how in
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Speaker 1: the h double l did this guy leave behind the
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Speaker 1: knife sheath, not the knife, the knife sheath is see
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Speaker 1: that much of an idiot, because we know he's not
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Speaker 1: an idiot, he's highly intelligent. Now we're learning it was
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Speaker 1: partially hidden. Mattie must have turned over, must have moved.
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Speaker 1: The knife sheath was left partially under her body, and
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Speaker 1: the comforter and the third thing that jumps out at me.
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Speaker 1: The prosecutors are arguing to seal the information of the
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Speaker 1: so called DNA family tree to protect relatives and distant
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Speaker 1: relatives of Brian Koberger. Please join us now on Fox
13:48
Speaker 1: Nation for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil the
13:53
Speaker 1: Bundy and Idaho killings. In this gripping special investigation, we
13:59
Speaker 1: Breathe Thegether, an incredible panel of guests who analyze disturbing
14:04
Speaker 1: similarities of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak with
14:11
Speaker 1: two female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas,
14:16
Speaker 1: who described their life before and after they were victims
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Speaker 1: of Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private
14:26
Speaker 1: investigator Bill Warner, who worked the cases, and Ted Bundy's
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Speaker 1: defense attorney, John Henry Brown. We traveled to Moscow, Idaho
14:35
Speaker 1: to speak with Washington State University students and interview neighbors
14:40
Speaker 1: of Brian Coburger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights about the
14:45
Speaker 1: suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Coburger. Don't miss Parallels
14:51
Speaker 1: of Evil the Bundy and Idahoe Killings, streaming now exclusively
14:56
Speaker 1: on Fox Nation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grease. Straight out
15:17
Speaker 1: to doctor Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, medical examiner, and detective
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Speaker 1: and author literally wrote the book Homicide Investigation Field Guide,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Dupre, Thank you for being with us, doctor Dupree.
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Speaker 4: Are you always.
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Speaker 1: Amazed at idiots that seeming idiots that commit these crimes
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Speaker 1: to leave behind the knive sheet? And I got to
15:43
Speaker 1: tell you when we went to Moscow and drove that
15:48
Speaker 1: route from the murder scene, this circuitous long route that
15:54
Speaker 1: could have taken him nine minutes to it make to
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Speaker 1: his apartment if you had gone the normal way. But
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Speaker 1: driving you all these back roads, doctor Dupree, it was
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Speaker 1: so dark, no street lights, nothing if a semi an
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Speaker 1: eighteen wheeler met me coming the other way. I practically
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Speaker 1: had to stop the car at night, it was that dark.
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Speaker 9: Can you imagine Doctor dupre as he's done this long,
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Speaker 9: securitiest route leaving the crime scene, he goes, holy crap,
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Speaker 9: where's the knife sheet?
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Speaker 1: I love thinking about that, but he left it under
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Speaker 1: the body.
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Speaker 10: I love it when they're dumb. I absolutely love it
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Speaker 10: when they're dumb. This is priceless, but.
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Speaker 4: It's not rare, doctor Dupree.
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Speaker 1: You've seen similar circumstances many many times.
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Speaker 10: Absolutely, Nancy. They always mess up some way or another
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Speaker 10: and you think, and you're right, they're not dumb, and
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Speaker 10: he's not dumb. But this was a very grave era.
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Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder when it hit him joining me.
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Speaker 1: Also Chris mcdonah, Guys, you know Chris mcdona, director at
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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective as investigated over
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Speaker 1: three hundred homicides alone, and host of a YouTube channel.
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Speaker 1: This is where I found him, called the interview room.
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Speaker 1: Chris mcdunnet. Don't you just love I even love it
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Speaker 1: when they're super smart, Like they're always the smartest guy
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Speaker 1: in the room and they do something so stupid of course,
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Speaker 1: we don't use the S word at our home stupid,
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Speaker 1: but I'm going to use it for Brian Kiberger leaving
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Speaker 1: the knife sheet behind. If we didn't have that knife sheet,
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Speaker 1: this case would be very weak.
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Speaker 11: Yeah, you know, it's remember the old movie line, so
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Speaker 11: I have a chance, Nancy. It's with when you take
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Speaker 11: those numbers and you look at that that's matched that
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Speaker 11: now infamous nice sheet, you have to think, Okay, what's
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Speaker 11: going through this guy's mind during the commission of this
17:52
Speaker 11: horrific act here? And I think we all know that
17:57
Speaker 11: he is so intent or his intensity that during the
18:04
Speaker 11: stabbing of these victims that this knife sheet becomes irrelevant
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Speaker 11: to him at that moment. And then you you are
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Speaker 11: one hundred percent right, he has an aha moment at
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Speaker 11: the end of this thing, probably in that car, like
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Speaker 11: you're talking about, where he's got to be thinking, holy crap,
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Speaker 11: where is my knife sheheet?
18:23
Speaker 4: I wonder when it hit him?
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Speaker 11: Yeah, exactly, And he's probably got to be thinking or
18:28
Speaker 11: he's probably thinking also at the time, you know, I
18:32
Speaker 11: got to go back there. Oh yes, maybe that's why
18:35
Speaker 11: you know there's indication that he did come back you
18:39
Speaker 11: know that morning.
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Speaker 4: I know for sure.
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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know this for sure, but he got
18:44
Speaker 1: rid of the knife, and I wonder if he had
18:47
Speaker 1: not already planned at Chris McDonald, because this guy plotted
18:50
Speaker 1: this out very carefully, a long time in advance. Absolutely,
18:54
Speaker 1: I know that he had in his mind where he
18:57
Speaker 1: was going to get rid of the knife. And I
18:59
Speaker 1: wonder less, because we passed lakes, did you, Jackie, didn't
19:04
Speaker 1: we talk about, oh, there's a lake out here, and
19:06
Speaker 1: this is this bridge and that bridge.
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Speaker 4: When we were doing that long drive that night, I.
19:11
Speaker 1: Mean, it was so dark, Chris, you could practically not
19:13
Speaker 1: see if it was water out there or the sky
19:17
Speaker 1: blended in with the ground just pitch black. But I
19:22
Speaker 1: guarantee you he had a certain place that he was
19:25
Speaker 1: going to get rid of that knife, whether he threw
19:27
Speaker 1: it into a body of water or buried it or what.
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Speaker 1: I wonder if when he got to that location to
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Speaker 1: throw the knife into the water or wherever he disposed
19:37
Speaker 1: of it, that's when he realized he didn't have the sheet.
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Speaker 4: Can you just even imagine that?
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Speaker 11: Yeah, and then think through that right even further, Nancy,
19:47
Speaker 11: where if he does now have that thought process, it
19:53
Speaker 11: must have been one of these moments for him to
19:56
Speaker 11: where he is so methodical that he you realized this
20:01
Speaker 11: was the biggest mistake that could ever be made, which
20:05
Speaker 11: destroyed his future and relationship to doing other crimes like this.
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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, that's a good point. So joining me right now.
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Speaker 1: Not only do we have a renowned DNA expert, Toby Wilson,
20:19
Speaker 1: we also have a forensic psychologist who performs risk assessments
20:24
Speaker 1: on violent offenders and is the author of Serial Killers.
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Speaker 1: One hundred and one questions true crime fans asked as
20:32
Speaker 1: doctor Joni Johnston, Doctor Joni, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine at that moment when he
20:40
Speaker 1: realized he had left that knife sheath behind.
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Speaker 12: I cannot imagine what it was like to experience that.
20:47
Speaker 12: And also, this is somebody who's obviously in a doctoral
20:50
Speaker 12: program of criminal justice.
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Speaker 4: He knows what that.
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Speaker 12: Means, He understands DNA, he knows what that means. And
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Speaker 12: so this is somebody who isn't just like, oh crap,
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Speaker 12: you know this happened, and so you know, they're going
21:02
Speaker 12: to know that somebody used the knife sheef maybe to
21:05
Speaker 12: identify the knife. This is somebody who's like my killing
21:08
Speaker 12: career is over that.
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Speaker 4: Dawning that moment.
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Speaker 1: How does that factor endto your analysis of serial killers?
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Speaker 12: Well, I think, you know, serial killers obviously start out
21:18
Speaker 12: a single killers, and I think that they have this
21:21
Speaker 12: long fantasy life where they're thinking about which turns into
21:25
Speaker 12: plotting and planning a murder. And I think oftentimes when
21:28
Speaker 12: that ball gets rolling, they're not just thinking about this murder,
21:30
Speaker 12: they're thinking about future murders, and they're thinking about, Okay,
21:33
Speaker 12: how can I improve on this murder, what's going to
21:35
Speaker 12: make it more interesting and more exciting? And so, you know,
21:38
Speaker 12: oftentimes there is a sense that I'm the smartest person
21:40
Speaker 12: in the room. I can figure this out. And when
21:42
Speaker 12: you have somebody like Brian Coberger, who, from what we hear,
21:45
Speaker 12: is you know, don't think he's the smartest person in
21:47
Speaker 12: the room.
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Speaker 13: This really does, you.
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Speaker 12: Know, raise some questions about how smart he really is,
21:52
Speaker 12: or at least how savvy he really is, and lets
21:55
Speaker 12: us know that it would surprise me for that reason
21:58
Speaker 12: that if he has committed other or just because he
22:01
Speaker 12: made so many mistakes.
22:02
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if it's possible at Chris mcdonna, and
22:07
Speaker 1: this is one of Jackie's theories did he realize he
22:10
Speaker 1: left the knife sheath before he left the home, but
22:15
Speaker 1: felt there wasn't time to go back and get it
22:18
Speaker 1: or search for it.
22:19
Speaker 11: You know, that certainly is a possibility, Nancy. But one
22:23
Speaker 11: of the things I think we know about him is
22:26
Speaker 11: that intensity and relationship to how he prepared and as
22:30
Speaker 11: the doctor said about his fantasy here, this fantasy was,
22:35
Speaker 11: you know, now first in his mind, and you know,
22:38
Speaker 11: Doc can go for days on that, but then it
22:41
Speaker 11: becomes reality. He's there and this event is taking place.
22:46
Speaker 11: He's into the intensity of.
22:48
Speaker 4: Committing this crime in a frenzy.
22:51
Speaker 11: In a frenzy, yeah, And so we have to ask
22:53
Speaker 11: ourselves then, does he have this knife in the sheet
22:58
Speaker 11: and he's wearing these gloves, do the gloves come off?
23:01
Speaker 11: And does it become personal? And where even further where
23:05
Speaker 11: he pulls the knife out of the sheet and during
23:08
Speaker 11: the frenzy the sheet drops ures it's something that he's
23:12
Speaker 11: trying to you know stage, you know, the nice sheet.
23:15
Speaker 1: Now, hey, hey, that brought me to another thought, Chris,
23:18
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that. Doctor Jennie Johnson, forensic psychologist
23:21
Speaker 1: and author of Serial Killers one hundred one questions true
23:24
Speaker 1: crime fans asked doctor Johnny. A lot of people have
23:27
Speaker 1: speculated he meant to leave the sheet. That is total bs. No,
23:32
Speaker 1: he did not mean to leave any evidence behind.
23:35
Speaker 12: Absolutely not. I think there is such a mess that
23:38
Speaker 12: people want to get caught when they're creating, when they're
23:40
Speaker 12: community these kind of murders. They may make dumb mistakes,
23:44
Speaker 12: and there's so looks like you want to get caught.
23:47
Speaker 12: But I do not believe for one minute that this
23:49
Speaker 12: was with planet.
23:51
Speaker 10: I don't think it was planned to leave it either,
23:53
Speaker 10: But I wouldn't be surprised if he was so confident
23:57
Speaker 10: or narcissistic that he probably thought he could talk his
23:59
Speaker 10: way out of it, if it was ever even traced
24:02
Speaker 10: back to him.
24:03
Speaker 1: Okay, Jackie here in the studio is giving me a
24:05
Speaker 1: true life example, and it is true. How many times
24:09
Speaker 1: have you lost the remote? I always lose my cell phone.
24:13
Speaker 4: In the covers or under the.
24:17
Speaker 1: Comforter or the bedspread, and you're digging around to try
24:22
Speaker 1: to find it. He probably didn't see it. It was
24:25
Speaker 1: dark in that room, was partially under Mattie's body and
24:28
Speaker 1: partially under the comforter. That said, I want to talk
24:32
Speaker 1: about Deoxaribo McLeay acid DNA joining me Toby Wolfen, forensic
24:41
Speaker 1: consultant specializing in DNA erroology bloodstain and you can find
24:47
Speaker 1: Toby at no Slow forensic dot com. Toby, thank you
24:52
Speaker 1: for being with us. Can you analyze this number? It's
24:56
Speaker 1: an amazing number, five point three seven Tilly and I
25:01
Speaker 1: have always had a hard time putting that in regular
25:05
Speaker 1: people talk to a jury, and I would try to
25:09
Speaker 1: say it something like this, that the chance of this
25:15
Speaker 1: not being Brian Koberger's DNA on the murder weapon sheath
25:22
Speaker 1: is one out of five point three seven octillion, And
25:28
Speaker 1: I would absolutely go up to a whiteboard and write
25:32
Speaker 1: out every single zero, all twenty seven of them by
25:39
Speaker 1: the time that witness was off the stand. Break it
25:43
Speaker 1: down for me, Toby.
25:44
Speaker 13: Well, it's an extremely big number when you especially when
25:47
Speaker 13: you consider it.
25:48
Speaker 1: Okay, now wait a minute, Toby, wait a minute. You're
25:52
Speaker 1: the scientific brains here and I'm expecting a little more
25:56
Speaker 1: than Yeah, that's a big number.
25:58
Speaker 4: So is going.
26:00
Speaker 13: To explain about it versus the population of the world.
26:03
Speaker 13: We're talking about eight billion people in the world, and
26:05
Speaker 13: over time there's never been you know, more than maybe
26:10
Speaker 13: thirteen fourteen billion. I would have it to say eight
26:14
Speaker 13: billion into this number is goes in several thousand times minimum.
26:19
Speaker 13: It's that large a number, so it's an extremely probative number.
26:25
Speaker 13: Prosecutors tend to present it the way you just did that.
26:28
Speaker 13: It's you know, the chances of it being somebody other
26:31
Speaker 13: than him are non existent. The reality is is that
26:37
Speaker 13: we basically presented as here's the probabilities of seeing this
26:43
Speaker 13: profile a second time.
26:44
Speaker 4: Okay, wait, did you say that very slowly?
26:48
Speaker 3: For me?
26:48
Speaker 1: We're drinking on the far eygeant with you, Toby, it's
26:51
Speaker 1: too much too fast. Say that very slowly. How a
26:55
Speaker 1: scientist would say it on the stand? What would you say?
26:58
Speaker 13: Well, basically I would say that the DNA profile obtained
27:02
Speaker 13: from Brian Kohlberger matches the DNA profile obtained from the
27:06
Speaker 13: knife sheep, and that the possibility of this being from
27:12
Speaker 13: him versus a random, unrelated man in the population it's
27:17
Speaker 13: five point three seven twillion times more likely.
27:21
Speaker 1: Okay, so yeah, that's like pea soup to me. I
27:25
Speaker 1: heard you, but it's not plain.
27:30
Speaker 13: It is an extremely confusing explanation for any lay person.
27:35
Speaker 1: Okay, is it correct, Toby? Is it correct to say
27:40
Speaker 1: the chance of that DNA on the murder scene on
27:46
Speaker 1: the knife sheath being anybody other than Brian Coberger is
27:53
Speaker 1: one in five point three seven octillion.
27:57
Speaker 4: Is that correct?
27:58
Speaker 13: It's one way of looking at it.
28:00
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'm glad I did not mislaid all
28:02
Speaker 1: those juries.
28:03
Speaker 4: Okay, because that's what I said.
28:05
Speaker 13: It's basically saying that it's him. But we don't in
28:08
Speaker 13: forensic biology ever say that it's absolutely done, because we
28:12
Speaker 13: know statistically there's always that chance. And granted it's a
28:17
Speaker 13: ridiculous thought in something with a number like this that
28:21
Speaker 13: there's another person out there that matches, so we always
28:25
Speaker 13: take a conservative approach to explaining it. But the end
28:29
Speaker 13: result is the jury is going to understand his profile
28:33
Speaker 13: regardless of the numbers are not his profile is a
28:36
Speaker 13: match to evidence obtained from the scene. These are CODIS
28:40
Speaker 13: core low side, which means that there are a minimum
28:43
Speaker 13: of twenty required lo SI to go into codis.
28:47
Speaker 4: What are you saying, man, what what's a low side?
28:51
Speaker 11: Okay?
28:51
Speaker 13: Lo SI? Are the addresses on each fragment.
28:54
Speaker 1: Of DNA that we say, Okay, that's what I would
28:56
Speaker 1: have to stop you on the stand right there. Of course,
28:58
Speaker 1: we would go through this, meaning many many times before
29:02
Speaker 1: I put you on the stand to make sure you
29:05
Speaker 1: didn't come out with that, because that's so far beyond
29:08
Speaker 1: beyond most regular people like myself comprehension. Could you dumb
29:15
Speaker 1: me down for me? What are you saying about twenty
29:18
Speaker 1: seven Losai?
29:19
Speaker 13: Okay, there's twenty seven fragments of DNA that you know,
29:23
Speaker 13: twenty plus that we look at and at each low
29:26
Speaker 13: side you either have one fragment or two fragments, and
29:31
Speaker 13: that we con pare those across with the same analysis
29:35
Speaker 13: to the evidence and to the standards, and either they
29:38
Speaker 13: match or they don't match.
29:39
Speaker 4: Can I just say it's a match?
29:41
Speaker 13: Yeah?
29:42
Speaker 4: Am I? Okay?
29:43
Speaker 1: Okay, good now, Jackie, you just had a great point earlier,
29:49
Speaker 1: Toby Wilson, for is it consultant specializing in DNA?
29:52
Speaker 4: Can I see it again?
29:53
Speaker 1: You were talking about the population of the world. Octilian
30:00
Speaker 1: is many many times larger than the current world population.
30:08
Speaker 1: So this number five point two seven octilian rules out
30:14
Speaker 1: anybody else in the world. That's more people than are
30:16
Speaker 1: in the world. Toby, Yes, there's more people than have
30:20
Speaker 1: ever lived.
30:21
Speaker 4: That's even better.
30:22
Speaker 1: So as I would with a jury would not get
30:25
Speaker 1: so deep into it that nobody even understands what we're
30:28
Speaker 1: talking about anymore. And I actually think that that was
30:32
Speaker 1: anybody can jump in with this, please. Was one of
30:36
Speaker 1: the problems that happened with the Top Mom Casey Anthony
30:39
Speaker 1: prosecution dealing with the air in the Top Mom's trunk.
30:44
Speaker 1: Do you remember that the air samples in her trunk
30:48
Speaker 1: actually revealed that a dead body had been in there. Like,
30:53
Speaker 1: let's just say, if you cook, what's something that smells
30:56
Speaker 1: really good, Jackie? That okay, just say chili. If you're
31:00
Speaker 1: cooking chili and then you go over the pot of
31:04
Speaker 1: chili and you grab the air in that air, they're
31:07
Speaker 1: going to be particles of what you're cooking. That's an
31:11
Speaker 1: air sample, right, all right. They've taken them for years
31:15
Speaker 1: and years and years in our country to test the
31:17
Speaker 1: air quality under the Clean Air Act.
31:20
Speaker 4: That's what that is.
31:21
Speaker 1: But it got so confusing trying to explain it in
31:26
Speaker 1: scientific terms that nobody understood.
31:29
Speaker 4: It got lost in the sauce.
31:30
Speaker 1: And I don't want that to happen with this DNA
31:34
Speaker 1: of Brian Coberger's.
31:37
Speaker 13: It really shouldn't get lost, Nancy, because when we when
31:42
Speaker 13: we when we're testify, we never the prosecutors don't normally
31:47
Speaker 13: walk you through the entire process and the discussion of
31:51
Speaker 13: what we're doing and how we're doing it anymore, because
31:53
Speaker 13: people have become so comfortable and familiar with DNA analysis
31:58
Speaker 13: through all these ancestry kids and through television and all that. Basically,
32:03
Speaker 13: you get on the witness stand and you say, well,
32:05
Speaker 13: I analyze the following samples to get obtained. A DNA
32:09
Speaker 13: profile profile was attained, and it matched the DNA profile
32:13
Speaker 13: attained from such and such, and here's the number that's
32:16
Speaker 13: associated with that.
32:17
Speaker 1: Oh man, I would have a field day with that number.
32:19
Speaker 1: How many times could I say the likelihood that the
32:23
Speaker 1: DNA on that knife sheet is.
32:26
Speaker 4: Anybody in the world?
32:28
Speaker 1: But Brian Coburger is one and five point two seven
32:33
Speaker 1: on tillion, and I point out every one of those
32:37
Speaker 1: twenty seven zeros. Well, something else is happening. In addition
32:41
Speaker 1: to the defense trying to put the skids on the
32:44
Speaker 1: entire trial by challenging the grand jury's indictment, claiming that
32:47
Speaker 1: somehow there were people that were out to get Brian
32:51
Speaker 1: Coberger on the grand jury and the fact that we
32:54
Speaker 1: get this incredible, almost unfathomable DNA match. We're finding out
33:01
Speaker 1: that Brian Coburger is set to announce he had an
33:05
Speaker 1: alibi at the time of the murders while he was
33:09
Speaker 1: spying on his female colleague with her Wi Fi security
33:13
Speaker 1: camp at the time. Guys, take a listen to our
33:15
Speaker 1: cut four nine one our friends at crime Online.
33:18
Speaker 2: Brian Coberger's attorney is asking a judge for more time
33:21
Speaker 2: to decide whether to offer a formal alibi for Coburger
33:25
Speaker 2: in this case, and Taylor Coberger's public defender said in
33:28
Speaker 2: emotion that the defense team had not had sufficient time
33:32
Speaker 2: to fully review evidence provided by the prosecution. Thousands of
33:36
Speaker 2: pages of discovery, thousands of photographs, and hundreds of hours
33:39
Speaker 2: of recordings have been provided to the defense. Idaho law
33:43
Speaker 2: lays out ten days for a criminal defendant to reveal
33:46
Speaker 2: whether an alibi will be offered. Showing the defendant was
33:49
Speaker 2: not at the offense scene when a crime took place,
33:52
Speaker 2: a judge can extend that deadline an alibi.
33:55
Speaker 1: I always think is dangerous to lock yourself into an
33:58
Speaker 1: alibi prior to trial. Gives a state plenty of time
34:01
Speaker 1: to go question your alibi witnesses to make sure they're
34:05
Speaker 1: lying crime stories with Nancy Grace joining me right now
34:28
Speaker 1: is a well known body language expert, the author of
34:33
Speaker 1: How Did You Take Lie's Fraud? And Identity Theft. You
34:37
Speaker 1: can find Tracy Brown at body languagetrainer dot com. Tracy Brown,
34:43
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. If he
34:45
Speaker 1: brings up this alibi, he will have to come into
34:49
Speaker 1: court to talk about it or his defense lawyers will.
34:53
Speaker 1: And now we see a huge shift and how he
34:57
Speaker 1: is appearing in court. Did you see him in the
35:01
Speaker 1: past days coming into court now wearing uh designer suit
35:05
Speaker 1: and tie, looking straight out of the pages of GQ.
35:09
Speaker 4: Did you see that, Tracy?
35:10
Speaker 10: I saw that?
35:11
Speaker 5: What a different guy walked into court is It's the
35:15
Speaker 5: perception that the public has of you just based on
35:20
Speaker 5: what you're wearing. Is is amazing. There's so many studies
35:24
Speaker 5: on how we're perceived that way. But yeah, I cannot
35:27
Speaker 5: show up in the orange jumpsuit.
35:29
Speaker 13: Wow?
35:30
Speaker 5: What like he was thinking about how he's going to
35:34
Speaker 5: present himself now. He didn't say a word during the
35:39
Speaker 5: during the proceedings, but his to the untrained eye, it
35:43
Speaker 5: didn't look like much happened at all. But I started
35:46
Speaker 5: looking at Okay, how stress is this guy. Really even
35:50
Speaker 5: though he's looking he's looking really great. And I started
35:53
Speaker 5: looking at his blank rate the best I could tell,
35:56
Speaker 5: because there weren't too many close ups on him, but
35:59
Speaker 5: I count, and his blink rate was at twenty four,
36:02
Speaker 5: which also matched the judge's blink rate. Now, our normal
36:08
Speaker 5: blink rate is between twelve and about eighteen per minute,
36:12
Speaker 5: and so he's more blinks, need more stress, right, because
36:16
Speaker 5: here's the thing, we never become aware of our blink rate,
36:20
Speaker 5: and so it's a very reliable like you can't you
36:24
Speaker 5: can't think your way out of it, right, It was
36:26
Speaker 5: a very reliable indicator of stress. The judge said he
36:30
Speaker 5: was a little bit nervous and a little bit stressed
36:32
Speaker 5: like himself having to deal with this case. And for
36:36
Speaker 5: someone who's in such a grave situation, he the coburger's
36:41
Speaker 5: level of stress was very, very low, just slightly elevated,
36:47
Speaker 5: which makes it kind of interesting. Now here's the other
36:50
Speaker 5: thing that he did that he did we've seen from
36:52
Speaker 5: him before when he was in court in the orange jumpsuit,
36:56
Speaker 5: is people always ask me, like, what's with this je wow,
37:00
Speaker 5: Like he keeps crunching his jawn muscle and it's very protrusive.
37:04
Speaker 5: You can you can see it that says hidden aggression.
37:07
Speaker 5: So he's trying to tamp down anger and aggression in there.
37:11
Speaker 5: And it's almost to the point that it's an adapter
37:14
Speaker 5: or a pacifier, like almost that he's trying to let
37:17
Speaker 5: off some stress in there, but he's barely stressed it all.
37:21
Speaker 5: So this is how we see it come out so
37:26
Speaker 5: pretty interesting. Then here's what he did. He did this
37:28
Speaker 5: three times. He'd to his team of attorneys, whoever was
37:33
Speaker 5: around him. He'd look at him and do a really
37:35
Speaker 5: quick fake smile. And we know it was fake for
37:39
Speaker 5: a couple of reasons. One is that the smile just stops,
37:44
Speaker 5: and it doesn't it doesn't say it out right. So
37:47
Speaker 5: you've got two ways that smile can end. One is
37:49
Speaker 5: that you stop it meaning you meaning you're thinking about it,
37:52
Speaker 5: and the other is that it stayed, meaning like the
37:55
Speaker 5: half life of the chemicals that created that genuine happiness
38:00
Speaker 5: slowly fade out three to five seconds. So they call
38:03
Speaker 5: this a pan Am smile, and we see it when
38:06
Speaker 5: someone has put themselves subservient to someone else, just like
38:10
Speaker 5: a stewardess would like back in the sixties, like a
38:13
Speaker 5: pan Am smile when they're serving you a drink. So
38:17
Speaker 5: we saw him trying to put on a good face,
38:19
Speaker 5: yet all these signs of stress and anger are leaking
38:24
Speaker 5: out there. So he's not as calm and cool as
38:27
Speaker 5: what he's trying to put on in that GQ suit look,
38:31
Speaker 5: but not definitely to the level that we'd see someone
38:36
Speaker 5: who's actually concerned about their future.
38:38
Speaker 13: You know.
38:38
Speaker 1: The look that he sported in court was very different.
38:43
Speaker 1: Many outlets referred to it as a smirk in the
38:46
Speaker 1: courtroom with me high profile lawyer out of the Coburger
38:51
Speaker 1: jurisdiction of Idaho, Tara Malik Tara. It brings to mind,
38:56
Speaker 1: for instance, the Menindez brothers. The defense lawyer had them
39:02
Speaker 1: dressed up like preppy college students in court, which is
39:07
Speaker 1: hardly what they look like the night that they murdered
39:09
Speaker 1: their mother and father. Or top mom Casey Anthony, how
39:14
Speaker 1: she would look so demure in court and then in
39:17
Speaker 1: my mind, I don't know that the jury saw this,
39:20
Speaker 1: the photos of her in a mini dress and a
39:23
Speaker 1: pushup bra on a stripper pole a few weeks before
39:27
Speaker 1: while her daughter killing Anthony was quote missing I E murdered.
39:33
Speaker 1: What we're seeing in court now is very very different
39:39
Speaker 1: than the figure that was described by the surviving roommate
39:43
Speaker 1: Dylan Mortenson. A guy menacing demeanor, all dressed in black
39:49
Speaker 1: with the bushy eyebrows there at the murder scene the
39:53
Speaker 1: night of the murders.
39:55
Speaker 4: Very different appearance. What's happening, Tara.
39:58
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think part of the his job
40:00
Speaker 6: here is going to be rehabbing his image. You know,
40:04
Speaker 6: we're all very familiar with him in the orange jumpsuit,
40:08
Speaker 6: kind of the cold stare forward, not showing a lot
40:12
Speaker 6: of emotion. So you know, Nancy, you know, when you're
40:16
Speaker 6: presenting a case to jurors in front of a jury,
40:20
Speaker 6: they're going to be watching his every move from the
40:23
Speaker 6: minute he walks in that door of the courtroom for
40:27
Speaker 6: the minute he walks out. Every break, every gesture, his
40:31
Speaker 6: clothing will be judged. So, you know, the defense has
40:36
Speaker 6: a really big hill to climb here and to kind
40:39
Speaker 6: of distance themselves from what, you know, how he's been
40:43
Speaker 6: portrayed so far in the media and what we're used
40:47
Speaker 6: to seeing. You know, they're going to clean him up.
40:49
Speaker 13: They're going to make him look you know, like a
40:51
Speaker 13: straight laced, you.
40:54
Speaker 6: Know, law abiding citizens, someone.
40:56
Speaker 12: Who is a student PhD student, you.
40:59
Speaker 6: Know, and trying to distance away from this image of
41:02
Speaker 6: him as you know, this incarcerated alleged murderer instead, so
41:08
Speaker 6: putting him in a suit is part of that process,
41:10
Speaker 6: is showing him in a different light.
41:12
Speaker 5: Now, you know, does it work?
41:15
Speaker 13: Not really?
41:16
Speaker 5: I don't think so, but especially in a case like
41:18
Speaker 5: this with so much publicity.
41:20
Speaker 6: But you know, they've got to make those efforts as well.
41:23
Speaker 5: That is part of their job.
41:24
Speaker 1: Dave Matt with US Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave.
41:28
Speaker 1: A hearing has been set down for the twenty seventh.
41:34
Speaker 1: Is that for the challenge on the grand jury indictment
41:38
Speaker 1: or is that related to them putting forth an alibi?
41:42
Speaker 1: And also we're still waiting for the prosecution to announce
41:45
Speaker 1: whether they're going to seek the death penalty.
41:47
Speaker 14: Actually, Nancy, the hearing this coming up is going to
41:49
Speaker 14: deal with several of the things you just mentioned. The
41:52
Speaker 14: judge has yet to rule and said he will rule
41:55
Speaker 14: in the future on what he's going to grant in
41:58
Speaker 14: terms of the grand jury. You know, they are argument
42:00
Speaker 14: has been that defense is claiming that they haven't gotten
42:04
Speaker 14: everything they were supposed to have gotten from the prosecution.
42:07
Speaker 14: They need that so that they can craft an alibi,
42:09
Speaker 14: and without all that documentation, they're not going to come
42:12
Speaker 14: up with one.
42:13
Speaker 4: Oh, I love what you just said.
42:14
Speaker 1: They're going to try to craft an alibi, create an alibi. Yeah,
42:20
Speaker 1: you know what. You're so right about that. So we're
42:22
Speaker 1: going to be back in court on the twenty seven.
42:23
Speaker 15: Is that right, Dave Matt That's exactly right. We wait,
42:26
Speaker 15: I think the alibi you're going this is Tory Wilson.
42:29
Speaker 15: The alibi I think you're going to see in this
42:31
Speaker 15: case now is going to be kind of like in
42:33
Speaker 15: the OJ case, that the evidence was planted and that
42:37
Speaker 15: he wasn't there unless they find more DNA either on
42:41
Speaker 15: him that connects into the crime scene or him at
42:44
Speaker 15: the crime scene other than this knife sheath. The argument's
42:48
Speaker 15: going to be for the defense that the real killer
42:52
Speaker 15: had his knife and left it there, and they're going
42:55
Speaker 15: to are it's going to be just like the gloves
42:57
Speaker 15: and the OJ case that they were planning that do
43:00
Speaker 15: make him look guilty.
43:02
Speaker 1: And there's gonna be all sorts of challenges on the
43:04
Speaker 1: DNA because it was wrapped underneath one victim's body, and
43:09
Speaker 1: the comforter and somehow they may try to use that
43:12
Speaker 1: comforter as a transfer of the DNA. How they're going
43:16
Speaker 1: to do that, I don't know, but they're going to
43:18
Speaker 1: try it all. As I told you earlier, this case
43:21
Speaker 1: will be contested and fought tooth, nail and claw. We
43:26
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds with one eye on the courtroom.
43:29
Speaker 4: Goodbye friend,