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Eposode 6 Jocelyn Blériot · Unfolding: a circular economy podcast

• Iain Gulland: Hello. Welcome to Unfolding, a Circle Economy podcast which is going to unfold the Circle Economy in the run up to COP31, which is happening in Turkey later this year. Wayne: We'll be talking to a range of experts with knowledge of the process who will give us their take on how national governments can incorporate circular economy principles into climate mitigation strategies. Iain Gulland: And we will actually be going to COP at the end of this to try and put what we have learned from all of the episodes into action and try and influence the COP outcome. Wayne: So thanks for tuning in and why don't you join us in this journey on the road to Antalya. Iain Gulland: So I am Ian Gulland, former Chief Executive of Zero Way Scotland, as well as past President of ACR +, a pan-European network of cities and regions promoting more sustainable resource management and the circular economy. Wayne: And I'm Wayne Hubbard, former CEO of ReLondon and member of the UK government circular economy task force. Together, we have over 60 years experience working in waste and the circular economy. We're to have to cut that bit, I think. Iain Gulland: We're gonna have to cut that bit, 60, goodness, makes us sound old. Wayne: Yeah, who perished the thought? Iain Gulland: Perish the thought. We are young at heart. So myself and Wayne are talking with a range of exciting guests over the next 10 weeks in the run up to the actual event. We're gonna understand, well, we're gonna aim to understand a little bit more about the COP process itself, what we expect, or what we should expect. by way of agreements or implementation plans for the circular economy on the back of that, as well as getting into some wider discussions around the circular economy transition. Wayne: And there will be an opportunity for listeners to feed in their thoughts and questions as we go along by email. And yes, even to suggest future guests we might like to include. We're keen to make this as interactive and as interesting as possible. Email address in the show notes. And to kick us off this week, who do we have in? Iain Gulland: So we have Joss Blareo from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, I've known and think both of us have known for some years, very much been at the forefront of circular economy action. So we're looking forward to having a chat with him. So over to you, Joss. So I'm now going to introduce our guest for this episode is Joss Blareo from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. So Joss, welcome. And I know that we've known each other for some time. In fact, I'm always, I I was reminded when we talk about cops, Joss, that you and I were together in Glasgow, COP26. And I remember I was like, you know, to something, but frustrated that the circular economy was not. part and parcel of it and I always remember you saying to me, our day will come Ian, there will be a future COP, that Circle Economy will be centre stage of that. So I guess here we are, COP 31, the Circle Economy is going to be on the agenda, it's going to be a formal part of proceedings, you know, part of the kind zero waste priority area for action. Yeah, you're a good forecaster, Joss. So, well, welcome anyway. So again, just to deduce yourself a little bit more about yourself and the Ella MacArthur Foundation. And yeah, as I said, you've been to Glasgow COPs and you've been to other COPs. So some reflections on the COP process and what that might mean for the circular economy would be a great way of starting our discussion. So welcome, Joss. Joss: Thanks a lot, Ian and Wayne. It's a great pleasure to be with you guys. Indeed, we've known and worked together for a while now. So, yes, there is an element of patience to all of this. And I'm not sure I was a great forecaster. I it was more wishful thinking than anything else, and I got lucky at some point, I guess. But joking aside, it's this is something that at the Ellen McCarth Foundation we've been working towards. perhaps the first step that we took was to publish in twenty nineteen a piece called Completing the Picture that looked at the importance of the material side of the economy beyond the energy transition when it came to you know achieving climate goals. The the contention was if we don't look at the material impact, land use, industrial emissions, we're missing a bit of of the puzzle and we actually will not meet the targets just by energy efficiency and switching to renewables alone. So that was 2019, and I think that we we did work together with the Chilean presidency at COP25. They put it on the agenda, they were quite vocal about it, they included circular economy in their NDC, and that was a first step. So what we saw at Glasgow, which by the way was a great Cup because there's always a fantastic atmosphere in Glasgow and in Scotland in general. So thanks for that, Ian, and your compatriots. But It was really discussed. It was in in the side events, it was quite present, I felt, but the frustration came from the fact that it was still a sideshow and didn't really make a dent into the actual discussions, negotiations, etc. But I think that the first real breakthrough was COP28 in Dubai, because the global stock take outcome mentioned circular economy. explicitly in the official text. So that was a bit of a breakthrough. And I think we're still seeing this, this movement towards circular economy being included as a proper strategy. There's probably a step that's been taken by the Turkish presidency looking at the zero waste agenda, which is very prominent. So I think that's where we are. And in the meantime, of course, No, the number of countries that had circular economy in their nationally determined contributions, I think that it was at COP twenty-eight, it was around twenty-eight percent, if my memory serves me right. And the latest count by UNDP, UNFCCC shows that the the last wave, which was revealed at COP thirty in Belemme, I think they reckon that over eighty percent of the NDCs now mention circular economy. So of course we we say that we don't say much because it depends on how it's framed, where it's sat, et cetera. And it's still very waste management focused. Iain Gulland: Yeah, but I mean, that's interesting. 80%. So there's a part of this conversation that the circular economy already has momentum. You know, as you've just said, you know, even there's a bit of that. There has been a bit more dialogue on appreciation of it at COPS, or even outside of COPS. It has momentum, as you say, those countries all over the world and regions with strategies around circular economy. And so I guess how... So what more can we be looking for, I guess, out of the COP process? Joss: Yeah, well, there's definitely something around the idea of moving towards more implementation or or sectoral focus. Because once you've said you've laid the argument and that's what we've been doing, you know, modestly because we didn't have a massive team to allocate to that, but my colleague Miranda Schnigger, who's been leading that, has done a great job of getting that logic of Circular economy is an integral part of the climate mitigation and adaptation story. Once you've said that and it's been accepted as a principle, you need to translate it into actual strategies. And if I think, for instance, about the work that UNDP and UNFCCC have done on the circular economy toolkit for the FDCs, NDCs, sorry, one of the things that was striking is the discussions with the countries that had piloted some of these ideas instead of just saying And we recognize that circular economy is important in that that journey. Like Vietnam, for instance, had done a big study on how regenerative agriculture contributed to the climate mitigation and adaptation agenda. So looking at one sector, looking at specific practices that were not linked to energy transition, but directly to a production process, land use, etc. They and and I don't have the figures at hand, but they can easily be found. There was a report published on this. It's about looking at how we turn those ideas into proper action. And I think that one of the big opportunities that we're seeing at COP31 is that one of the big priorities is electrification, right? And electrification necessitates a a huge amount of physical resources that we know are not necessarily all plentiful. That will need to be managed. And that's where the material side of the economy comes into the discussion about, you know, if we transition from internal combustion engines to electrification, yes, it's an emission story, but the hardware story is absolutely huge. And if we don't include circular economy practices in that management of the batteries production, of the batteries recycling, of the end of life of those products. Then A, we're going to run into a massive problem when it comes to overconsumption, overuse, environmental impacts, but the emissions that will arise will also be complete will completely potentially negate the progress that's that's been done. So so this is where I feel the inflection point is. We understand the principle, we now have to put it in in practice at sectoral level and I think the electrification and the critical mineral story as part of the cop process on decarbonisation is going to be absolutely key. So that's a massive opportunity. Wayne: That's really interesting. I wonder if I could just... just go back slightly and then come back to this point. know, the work that you did in 2019 on completing the picture and then also the work that people at C40 did on the future of urban consumption, it seemed to me at that time around about 2019, 2020, there was an acceptance that at least, you know, global north consumption was a significant contributor to climate change, driving emissions in the global south. And is that kind of baked into the COP process? Is that something that the parties kind of sign up to? Because I look at the agenda and yes, circular economy is kind of in there, it's explicitly mentioned, although it's kind of zero waste, but so is... I don't know, greening industry. So it seems to me that greening industry still has more prominence than, for example, systemic change. we will, and even in the UK, the climate change committee and the government say we will work with our partners to decarbonize rather than we will work with our partners to kind of have any systemic change. I just wonder if you could comment on that. Joss: Yeah, I think that's very fair. And and again, you know, it's a question of perception because it's really hard to say, yes, it's the case and it's based on data and evidence. You know, w we can only sense what we hear, what we read and the partners what we talk to. But I definitely would say that it's super fair to say it's more about looking at changing some practices and making them cleaner as opposed to rethinking things like consumption based emissions, material targets, all of that, which which never really if we're completely honest, it never really flew as an argument. And maybe it was more prominent when when the the European Green Deal was something, for instance, to be celebrated. And you know, there were discussions about material consumption targets, etc., but they didn't really take flight. And I'm wondering to what extent Pressures on purchasing power, inflation, economic worries, etc., meant that actually these questions were put on the back burner because they're not politically very viable. It's not Wayne: Yeah. Joss: something that you can sell to the to the citizens, to the voters. There's strong worries about, you know, geopolitical tensions, sovereignty, ability of countries to sustain themselves, etc. etc. So perhaps all of that. Plus the fact that there's a there's a complexity and there's a there's a daunting nature to system change discussions means that I would say, yeah, I I would definitely agree with you. It's much less on the agenda for sure. Iain Gulland: that's, yeah, I mean, God, we're right into the heart of this already. I mean, it's quite interesting, you know, the point, even what you were saying earlier, Josh, because you're right, we bang on about this. Sometimes circular economy is all about system change and rewiring the economy and that kind of huge macro, you know, dilemma to some extent. But you can see it now feeding it, because you're right. I mean, if you look at the agenda, sustainable agriculture, you mentioned that already. Circular practice is going to benefit that, not just from a carbon point of view, from a nutritional point of view, from soil health, all of those things. And you can see that as well in other sectors specifically. And then you've mentioned electrification, which is also about. know, critical raw materials and access to that. And even, and it is about increasing recycling performance of a lot of those critical raw materials, which we don't capture enough of at end of life. So you can see, so I guess I'm just, you know, playing that back that that is the journey that we seem to be on rather than you're right, this big moment where everybody agrees that we need system change and we need to reorder everything. But I guess I am interested in Where are those areas then? Where are those opportunities other than the ones you've just mentioned? Are there other areas we should be saying, how do we get circular processes specifically into some of those sectors at the global level that we could make a difference and further the kind of, yeah, further the momentum that, you know, we need to be doing more of this across the piece rather than specifically in key sectors. Wayne: I mean, just to add to that, I wonder if, and this is pure speculation on my part, but it's probably reasonably informed speculation that the 80 % of NDCs that mention circular economy are just swapping out waste management and inserting circular economy. So it's great that the language is in there and the language has become recognised, but the actual practice has not really kind of bled through. Joss: Yeah, and you know, I I haven't done a detailed analysis of the eighty percent in question. So that would be my intuition as well, and and I don't think we'd be far off the truth. The the thing is the first mention of circular economy in the NDCs was linked to the emissions linked to waste management. And so it was about reducing that. So we're we're gradually moving towards reducing the waste as opposed to reducing the the the emissions that come from waste management. So it's going in the right direction, but yes, it's still very downstream. To a certain extent, you know, we've all been pushing, being from the global north, for circular economy to be an upstream strategy, et cetera, et cetera, which is great, as producing countries that can have enough investment to look at these practices, to rethink the business models, etc. I mean and as the circular economy globalizes as well. It brings countries to the table that have a massive issue when it comes to lack of infrastructure to deal with the stuff that they're being bombarded with as well. So I think Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah. Joss: we have to look at rebalancing that upstream downstream notion. And if you look at where circular economy at sectoral level has a lot of traction, well definitely it was in the plastics treaty discussion, full lifecycle. And it's gaining momentum when it comes to textiles. And in and in both cases, it is about a tidal wave of overproduction and waste that basically suffocates the countries that are on the receiving end. So I think that downstream element is also very useful to keep in mind because we need to align and we can't be saying circular economy is all about upstream and design and and durability and business models. Then we're going to you know, restrict the conversation to global north producing countries that have the means to look at these practices. And so circular economy by the reckoning of Chatamahas and UNIDO who've done a a count, the latest number is over a hundred circular economy national roadmap strategies or action plans. The bulk of the last wave, which was a big bump between 2024 and the end of 25, It was more than 34% increase in that number. And they all come from the global south. So you know that dialogue between upstream and downstream is is becoming much more important than it was. So going back to the NDCs, yes, I I would agree with you. At the same time, I feel it's it would be delusional to think that we can jump from nothing to upstream. These steps need to be taken because the the problem is physical, it it it does exist, it's on the ground every day. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, that's very, you know, it's a very clear observation. And you're right. I you mentioned plastics because, you know, if it'd been involved in some of these discussions, I mean, there's a lot of those countries you're talking about just don't feel have any agency about what's coming their way. If you know what mean, they're just having to deal with it. So whilst they absolutely accept that we do need to think differently about the design and the use of products and all that stuff, the manufacturing, the production, ultimately their focus is on dealing with what they're having to deal with, which is more downstream action. And I think they're getting that balance right. I think that's something we possibly forget here in the kind of global north or even within the kind of UK or Scottish context. That yeah, while we wanted to be up that upstream position, we need to get that global balance. So if I may just. I mean, aspect of the, know, cop for us is that implementation, you know, and I think Turkey's been quite clear about this, isn't it? That this is a implementation cop. And so guess there's reflections on that. What does that actually mean in practice, you know, in terms of how do we get to the implementation phase? And one of the things that we've noticed, certainly from our experience, myself and Wayne, I guess I'm talking about here is, quite a lot of the action that we've seen on the ground has been led by cities, cities and regions, particularly here in the UK. I won't even mention Glasgow already, in terms of circular Glasgow, but also looking across Europe with ACR plus, some of the real demonstrative action has been led by cities. And I guess I was just interested in the role that cities could play because cops very... much seen as a kind of national thing, it? It's countries that come together and talk and whether there's more opportunity for cities and regions approach, Delivery is possibly laid more at sub-national levels. I guess, is there an opportunity there for more of that to happen on the back of COP31 in terms of circularity? Joss: Yeah, hope hopefully, yes. Th definitely and and I take the point that the d the demonstration and the action happens where there is traction and enough enough devolution for lack of a better term, because it it doesn't apply to all national contexts. But certainly there's a concentration of consumption, infrastructure, reverse logistics that are in in cities that can be activated quite quickly, provided there's enough political will at the helm of said cities. And I think that where we see a very strong link between circular economy and cities is is for instance in China, because the there's a dedicated body which sits under the Ministry of Ecology and Environment that looks at the Zero Waste Cities program in China and that implements some of the circular economy strategies, whether that's take back systems or reverse logistics, material hubs as well. So we can definitely definitely see The link here between the city level and the national level, but China is a particular case. What perhaps is a bit more, I wouldn't say necessarily worrying, but but a source of frustration is that you have ECR plus, C40, all these groups and all these cities doing amazing work. And then there's still a disconnect with the national level because it doesn't necessarily translate. So in an ideal scenario, cities because they can act faster and because they have the means at their disposal should inform the national debate. And then the good example and the best best case the best practices should inform the national level. And and you know a country like the Netherlands is a good example because they do listen to stuff that's happening in Amsterdam, etc. But in some cases there's a disconnect. And the really good stuff that's happening is a Not necessarily taken as a lesson learned to inform the national level. Or it's, you know, the enablers are not there because cities can only do so much. You know, they can't prescribe design guidelines, Iain Gulland: Yeah. Joss: they can't do all of that. So they're still on the receiving end of what gets produced, right? So this they can manage it better. But there should be a better mechanism to say, this is what we see, this is what we've been able to achieve if we remove that barrier. on product design, whatever it is, it would make faster progress. Wayne: Can I ask a question about the EMFs? Are we allowed to say that, Joss? Or do we have to say the foundation? Joss: Y you just did, Wayne. I think we're fine. Iain Gulland: you Wayne: I'll say the foundation. So yeah, what is the foundation's kind of focus areas? Because I think there's been a refocusing. I guess that's a constant. process. So what are you focusing on in terms of going forward and maybe specifically cop? Joss: So I think that for COP thirty-one, based on the the recent revision or evolution of our strategy, you know, we we focus very strongly on three verticals, which are plastics and packaging, fashion and textiles and critical minerals. So we're definitely when it comes to COP and going back to what we were talking about earlier, that opportunity we see with electrification to really anchor the principle of circular economy in the climate discussion in a sector. Is really going hard on circular economy as part of the critical minerals discussion. So we're going to focus really hard on this as opposed to perhaps doing more generic advocacy for the circular economy idea that we've done so far. We feel there's an opportunity now. So in the context of COP, we're definitely going to link our critical minerals agenda to the circular economy agenda and and push that way because we can then You get more private sector actors involved demonstrating what they're actually doing, especially in the context of battery design, production and management for electric vehicles. And that will give a more tangible illustration of how circular economy can have that discussion. And it's more clarity for investors, more clarity for policymakers. You know, if we look, all of that is a bit patchy at the moment. You've got the Circular Economy Act in Europe. Which is loosely linked to the Critical Raw Materials Act, but but not that much. At the same time, Europe understands that there is a massive issue with critical minerals. So the Act, which is basically focusing on creating a secondary raw materials market in the Union, will probably have a very strong critical minerals component, whether that's through EV batteries or electronic devices. So we we can see all of this. strands and and loose threads that we want to combine and really exemplify it in one sector to make sure that everybody really gets the benefits, the economic, environmental and climate benefits of implementing circular economy strategies. Sorry, that was a bit long winded, but Wayne: No, Iain Gulland: Thank you very much. Wayne: it's really clear and it's a really smart strategy because you've managed to combine, as you were saying before, electrification is a tactic to reduce climate emissions, but it has material implications and therefore we need to consider the circular economy, business models and strategies, how that can help. Joss: Yeah, and maybe also, you know, we I've mentioned the three missions or three verticals, but Wayne: Hmm. Joss: we're continuing to work very actively in the policy space. So as a cross sector enabler and looking at the what we call the systemic enablers, and most of it is really about the cost and incentive structure of the economy, because w we can't really hope to get circular economy to become mainstream if we don't look at certain Incentives that still favor extractive and linear practices. So, you know, the World Bank has done quite a lot of work on this, the OECD has done work on this, but we're we're touching a very difficult topic of at the moment, we can't just think that because circular economy is accepted as a good idea, we can definitely choose to go that way. And it will be a matter of linear versus circular. You've got to Two hundred years of optimized practices, legislation, incentives that really lock us in a linear model. So the the the cross sector policy work that we're doing is going to go more and more in that discussion. It's about making the economics work for circular economies. Iain Gulland: Yeah. I mean, we're coming back to that, we? That system change kind of discussion, isn't it? Because ultimately, you're right. I mean, although the solutions are out there, I guess, in terms of technology and application, I guess we could argue that there's lots of what we want to do available to us. Technology, could talk about the AI, digital, enabling us to do things that we couldn't have done before in terms of some of this. some of this work. But you're right, we do need that fiscal or policy space to change or adapt to allow more circularity. And even if it's specific to textiles, even specific to critical raw materials, I guess the question still is how can we move, how can we make that? How can we make that case or see pilots or otherwise or countries or nations or cities and regions, somebody making a much more bolder step to create that different market condition that will make some of this happen quicker. Joss: Yeah, and there's also a difficulty which is as soon as you start talking about that stuff, people consider that, it's about giving a specific strategy an edge that it doesn't have naturally. So we're saying, we need to look at the fiscal conditions. People hear, well, it can't really survive in the wild, so we need to prop it up, or we need to tax something. It's all about negative. Where in fact, actually, it's only a rebalancing. It's not about adding the cost. It's about putting the cost where the cost should be and incentivize what should be incentivized, which is a very different proposition. So even before you go into the technicalities, framing the discussion is already a hurdle. And that's what needs to happen. I think that there's a definite need for bodies that are respected because they have the economic gravitas to to talk about this in really neutral, simple terms. to say, okay, we may have reached the end of one specific system for X, Y, and Z reason because it's not delivering for either people or the environment, whatever. The point is we see a better one and we need to incentivise that one. It's about like having a a lab and and an incubator and saying, you know, s some ideas emerge and the ones that we think have the potential to go to scale should be enabled. Iain Gulland: Yeah, so that, I mean, kind of touches more leadership than that point, isn't it? So who are, mean, obviously, Eleanor MacArthur Foundation yourself and, I mean, Eleanor herself have been, you know, real the pioneer champions of this. So we've seen others, other organisations, other political or, well, obviously climate leaders, you know, coming forward and putting this out there in that way that you've described. So it's not a kind of anti-establishment, anti-system Joss: Mm. Iain Gulland: over here, it's how that, as you say, rebalance or evolution of what, you know, of the kind of fiscal or political framing. Yeah, how, you know, is there other leaders out there? Joss: Yeah, and I I won't go through a a whole list of it, but I I think there have been really interesting discussions in in the G twenty, in the G seven as well, and you know, during the Brazilian presidency of the G twenty that was quite an important topic. Perhaps the best the best material that that I've seen on that topic was a a report by the World Bank called Squaring the Circle. And I'd like to pay tribute to the one of the main authors, Andrea Livarani, who was with the with the Brussels office. That's very clearly laid out. And he talks about the addressing the distortions that still favor a linear economy over circular economy. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Joss: And and it's his argument is that if you remove that, then you liberate private sector innovation and and scale when it comes to circular economy. So it's really a a pragmatic way to look at it as opposed to a dogmatic one, which it should never be a dogmatic Wayne: That report, by the way, I think they're the triumvirate of significant reports in this sector is the World Bank report, Square in the Circle, your report, Completing the Picture and the C40 report, the Future of Urban Consumption. If anybody wanted to read about those three reports they'd have a pretty good idea of where we're coming from and what needs to happen. Even though, you know, we need to now kind of go a bit beyond those and start to think about the next steps of what those report means but you're spot on that's a super report. We should have Andrea on the show. Joss: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, have him. He's great. And Wayne: Yeah. Joss: and I think I I don't want to you know be unfair. There are other a lot of other voices that Wayne: Hmm. Joss: have been very, very eloquent on the topic. So I think what's potentially a source of hope is that even in spaces where it was not really a discussion, so typically in the European in the European discussion. Fiscal, all of that stuff, taxation, that's member states remit. But you still see the discussions going towards perhaps creating working groups or inviting member states to look at VAT when it comes to durability, repair activities, circular economy stuff. So even there, when it doesn't have a natural home, you can see the discussion really acknowledging the fact that it's a massive barrier, right? And The clean industrial deal circular economy dialogue that happened last year, you know, every single company around the table did mention that. All of them. You know, and and it's clear through the the discussions that were being had at European Parliament or or in the Commission itself that looking at those fiscal measures, one way or another, and it's not going to be mandated by the Commission because it doesn't have that remit, but you know, encouraging Or creating the space for a dialogue by Member States on those topics is something that they can do. And and you hear more and more of that discussion, which was definitely not the case even three years ago. So that's a source of hope. Wayne: Just coming back to your, I guess, members, do you find that the voice of business has changed in general? Like over maybe post Trump? It seems to me, there was a point where the European Union... started to move slightly to the right and there was more anti-net zero. know, commentary around the European Parliament. And then with Trump in the White House, obviously, and the withdrawal from Paris, you know, do you find that there's a change of emphasis from climate to resilience or growth or some other way of framing the discussion around circular economy? Joss: Yeah, maybe two points on that one. I think there's definitely that change of framing definitely happened. You know, it's more about in the context of geopolitical tensions, it's about sovereignty, it's about resil resilience, it's about supply security and all of that. Which means that it becomes much more an economic topic, which actually we should all welcome because if it's center stage in terms of government's priorities and business priorities, then it's more likely to actually happen. The second thing is from a network perspective and the companies that we work with and talk to, all of them have said, look, you know, we've invested in this, we're doing this, we're pushing it. We may not talk about it as much because you know we have other topics on the table, et cetera, et cetera. But the the fact is that if you look at the one big inflection point in the European discussion, the nature restoration law. which I believe was last year, I'm getting my yeah, maybe maybe twenty twenty-five July. You know, it was it came under attack politically, massively, and it was gutted out. It was only saved, even if in a reduced form, but at least it was saved by prominent businesses, you know, sticking their heads above the parapet and saying, You're not getting this right. It's absolutely important. We need to keep it on the agenda because we depend on nature, etc. I'm paraphrasing a bit here. But the fact is that the private sector voice in that case was really instrumental in keeping the the notion of that nature restoration law alive. So, yes, you know, you you could argue that compared to what it was, it's it's a shadow of itself, but at least it's still there. So I think. There is a way to engage, and that's what we're really focusing on. We call it the business policy engagement to create the conditions of a of a dialogue around how we get to circular economy at scale. We convene business policy roundtables, notably in Brussels, but we also launched one in Brazil just last week. Getting businesses from across sectors to say, this is a strategy that we need to invest in, we need to get the enablers. And it's not about companies asking stuff for themselves on an individual basis, because it's cross-sector. That that's where we can find the the systemic nature of of the transformation that we're alluding to earlier. It's saying, you know, we are diverse range of businesses from a variety of sectors. Saying, of course, we have different products, we have different materials, but the logic of a circular economy isn't one that we want to see. And that's why we, for instance Coordinated a business letter that was sent to the European Commission about the upcoming Circular Economy Act, which does touch upon that notion of making the economics work. So even, you know, in the private sectors, there's also a recognition that the enablers aren't there and what they're trying to achieve is going to be made much harder unless we look at these profound Iain Gulland: Hmm Joss: economic reforms. Iain Gulland: I mean, that's really good work by you and the team. Because I guess that's, you know, even me stepping away from my role as the CEO of Scotland, I do recognize that, you know, there isn't really a business voice as such, you know, out there. mean, businesses are doing this. I mean, you're right. A lot of them have potentially other immediate challenges in terms of their business if they're in business already. But obviously, startups have a whole range of different challenges. around scaling and stuff like that. But ultimately, yeah, there's a whole army of businesses and corporations out there trying to move in this direction for all the obvious reasons that you've just stated. But I guess it's that, yeah, how do we harness that voice in that positive way that you've just talked about? So hats off. And I think that maybe comes back to COP as well, because sometimes the business participation at COP sometimes gets a... a bad press, it's usually seen as lobbyists coming in to kind of slow everything down or divert attention to other agendas. I mean, guess part of that then is how can we make sure that that voice that you're talking about is as much front and center of the circle economy discussion at COP as anything else? Because what are they looking for out of COP? How can we make sure that that global dialogue is... includes businesses, positive statements from businesses about the direction of travel. Joss: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But and there is definitely lobbying happening for the wrong reasons. Well, what we would consider the wrong reasons. So, you know, let's not be naive about this. It it does exist as well. They know economic interests are are pretty considerable. We can see it Iain Gulland: Yeah. Joss: in the in the plastics treaty discussion as well. But I think that the business voice is important to activate when it comes to saying This is what can be done, this is what we need in order to do it, and this is why we want that dialogue, as opposed to businesses coming and saying, we've done this and we've reduced our emissions by 12% by doing X, Y, and Z. You know, a bit of a bit of comms is not necessarily very useful. The idea is to say, this is what could be done, this is what we've proved that technologically we can do, and in order to get it mainstream, these are the conditions that we need to to to pull levers full. Because otherwise, run the risk of ending up with a circular economy that's just a glorified pilot project bolted onto a linear system that's unchallenged. So I think it's the business, Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: Yeah. Joss: business and private sector voice, sorry, when is important to also not only showcase what's been achieved in terms of progress, which is always always good because you know progress needs to be celebrated. But it's more about that co creation dialogue. It's about saying we want to engage to go further. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: Brilliant. I mean, I, you know, it's inspiring to hear you speak and, you know, just echo what Ian said, the work that you guys have done has been amazing. In getting us to this point, actually, you the reason we're having this conversation, I think, is to a large extent because of the work that you did pioneering back in the, whenever it was, 2013, 2012. So hats off. And then I guess we're gonna ask you, on, Joss, yeah. Joss: Yeah, just yeah, I I don't want to make it sound too easy, etcetera. You know, it's it's one thing that we're doing. I'm not suggesting that we're yeah making a cons yeah and and everything's rosy early from now on. It it's going to be difficult for sure. I think there's a sense Wayne: Yeah, absolutely. mean, Joss: of direction and not everybody is completely fully on board either. So we still need to push for that advocacy as well. Wayne: 100%. I mean, I kind of tired of hearing myself saying the circular economy has been growing at an amazing rate over the last 10 years and is now rapidly approaching its infancy. That's the way it feels to me. Joss: Mm-hmm. Wayne: know, it's like we have to really work hard, continue to work hard because we've just experienced the hottest summer ever. We know what the stakes are. And I, but I kind of want to come back to this. We've been asking every guest to come up with five or three policies that they want to see coming out of COP. So, you know, in an ideal world or in a very practical world, you know, if you had, you know, if you could, if you could wave your magic wand, what, what, what three to five policies would you like to see coming out of COP 31? Joss: God, that's a difficult one. Wayne: Hahaha! Joss: Well, I think that it has to be linked to the to the agenda in in any case because so I I think very strong recommendations when it comes to circular practices for the management of materials linked to that electrification agenda would be a a real progress. Perhaps a a stronger view on how we account for the emission savings that are achieved through circular economy practices. would be much better as well, because that would link to investor interest and more clarity. If everybody had the same way of saying on the material side of things, we have been able to reduce our emissions and have been contributing by X and have a quantification method that is harmonized and easy to understand and easy to adopt, that would definitely help. So perhaps these two things, and the third one would be to look at Really, what are the incentives to extractive fossil-based industries that could be cut quickly without necessarily putting a huge strain on on certain countries that that do depend on it? And you know, it has social implications. You know, the just transition movement was really about how we move fossil-based economies towards a cleaner production. less emissions without the the social system suffering too much. And I think that should definitely be a preoccupation. It's about what can we actually cut now that we know that the technology and the the efficiency of renewable systems, we know what's entailed when it comes to the transition in terms of material costs, etc. What is it that we can really activate now? And it's a big step. Because you know, fossil fuels even the terminology is is contested. So the Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: That's an excellent three. Yeah, very clear, very clear and very measurable. We could take those into Cop, can't we? we're going to Cop, by the way, Joss, I don't know if you know that, but we'll be there, we'll be in Turkey. Iain Gulland: Yeah, no, no. Yeah, I really don't. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah. We'll be there. So you'll be there? Joss: I'm not sure I will be there, but the foundation will definitely be there. Iain Gulland: You all right? Joss: Critical minerals team will be there. My colleague Miranda, who I mentioned, will be there. You can have a conversation with her. She'll be even more in the detail and I'm sure that you can have a lot of constructive conversations with the circular economy ecosystem writ large at COP. Wayne: Well, let's bring it to a close Iain Gulland: thanks, Joss, again. I mean, thanks for your time, really insightful contribution. And I look forward to continuing this dialogue and various establishments around the world again. Joss: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and same here, you know, you know, y you've done some fabulous work in London Wayne, you know, we've been working together for a long time. Ian Zero was caught. I think we're all in this together and and it's Iain Gulland: Yeah. Joss: great that we can continue it, even if it's through dialogue or specific activities that we can, you know, cook up, then always count me in. Iain Gulland: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, Wayne: Great to hear. Alright, brilliant. Thanks, Joss. Joss: Thanks both. Iain Gulland: thanks, guys. Wayne: That was good actually. That was... Iain Gulland: Well, it was, yeah, and I thought it was good. It was good. Wayne: Genuinely interesting. I discovered that... Well, for me, the whole thing about electrification, it's kind of... It's clearly a focus area for EMF and it just reinforces the point about technical solutions having consequences that are not always for the... benefit of the climate and here is an example of that. know this and I think that's a very good area for EMF to be concentrating on. Iain Gulland: I know, and we're beginning, yeah, and attached to that is, you you're getting that down south, but the whole issue about data centers, absolutely. Wayne: Date centers. Iain Gulland: I mean, not just from a material point of view, but from a climate point of view, you know, energy, energy consumption and water consumption and all the other things that go with it. So that's about a topic, I think, at the moment in many parts of the UK. Wayne: What did you make of that whole conversation? Iain Gulland: I think it's really interesting. Again, always interesting with jobs. Not just looking at the court, but that wider global perspective around the second economy and where it is now and the journey that it's travelling on. Yeah, mean, guess there's loads of positives, isn't there? There's more of it happening, more talk, more dialogue, more action, more country regions, strategy. mean, that, as you said, compared to where we probably were even five years ago, we're well further forward. Wayne: Well, I think EMF were very much in the supranational discussions really. They really Iain Gulland: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wayne: have done a lot of work globally. I mean, I don't think it's controversial to think that the fact that we're having this conversation is probably due to the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. However, I think I did sense some... Frustration, maybe? Is that too strong a word from Joss? Like, we, you know, that, we have to keep on making the argument. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, no, get, I did pick that up and I think that's true anyway. I think, you know, the more we get into these conversations, we tend to sometimes go off to the side to talk about just resilience or otherwise rather than really thinking about recycling and waste management as opposed to the upstream activity. Cause there was a lot of the chat in there is all about material management, which is ultimately about material management. ultimately do we need the materials in the first place? Could we do make things last longer? We're not always thinking about... Yeah, dogs. And I think that's probably all of our frustrations. Wayne: Dog scene of folks. Iain Gulland: particular just coming up. Wayne: Hold on, let me put that... Iain Gulland: Is this the edit? Edit Street will have to come into this. Really? He wants out? Wayne: There's literally a fox climbing over the fence. Yeah, yeah, we're Iain Gulland: Is it? bloody hell. Wayne: plagued by... Foxes at the moment, Iain Gulland: Foxes, urban foxes. Wayne: yeah. Urban foxes, having a... Yeah, right. Iain Gulland: Yeah, I mean, I was just saying I picked up some of frustration as well. But I also think there is some frustration, isn't there, more generally about, you know, we are possibly still talking about materials, material management rather than, I mean, it is all part of that story, but, know, I guess we were the upstream, you know, could we do with less material management and actually... work with the products that we already have and make them design to last longer and all of that. You know, think about demand reduction. We didn't really get into that, you know, in terms Wayne: No. Iain Gulland: of what we're trying to do in terms of use less resources or use resources in a different way. More, you know, some of the language, not just from Jotts, but in the space is still very much about managing materials, managing. waste managing, know, yeah, the system that we already have, as opposed to that redesigning everything in a different way. I know that's, Wayne: I'm trying it. Iain Gulland: yeah, we did talk a little bit about, you know, you know, the language that is not dogmatic approach. But yeah. Wayne: I'm trying to put this into some kind of integrate, you know, the discussions that we've had. we, you know, we started with James, who was really good at articulating the, the complexity, Iain Gulland: down. Wayne: I suppose. But also he was very optimistic about how things, you know, were going to pan out because we've got these very clever people all in one place, which I think is the thing about COP. And then we had Andy, he was talking about multi-level discussions and there's some kind of lack of multi-level discussions, which you, think started to talk about with Joss about how the cities get included within whatever, you know, as an outcome of COP. And then we've got Joss kind of talking about the global and the fact that he talked about, a hundred plus. circular economy action plans, know, or route map at the national level, which is amazing. And the amount of MDCs that mentioned circular economy, which I didn't know about, I suspect as we Iain Gulland: than I do. Wayne: discussed that it, they'll be talking about kind of higher hierarchy Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: waste management actions as opposed to genuine, well, not genuine, but you know, more advanced circular economy strategies. Nevertheless, Despite that, I mean, we've come a long way despite that, it does feel that we are not, we're still facing this massive economic incentive that extractive linear companies have and a preoccupation or an assumption that circular economy is more costly than linear alternatives. And Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne: again, I think just... of touched upon that when he mentioned rebalancing versus we have to give tax breaks in order to make circular economy pay. So I think we're still left without a, you know, there seems to me an absence of an ever really good kind of unifying narrative. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, I agree. maybe that's certainly, there's a positive opportunity that COP brings or anything like that, any kind of global dialogue on this, I think has to be seen as an opportunity. And the fact, you're right, there's more strategy, there's more... in DCs including circular economy are all very positive actions because that wasn't like I said that definitely wasn't the case five years ago at COP26. But I do I think the other thing and I'm know personalised it slightly because I've been out talking to businesses that thing about the business voice but I think that's what's encouraging you know we've talked about that evolution of circular economy the framing of it from from being about climate, about being more economic and now about resilience and how things have changed over that period of time. I think what's important there is the business voice has articulated itself around, not so much around the technical solutions and examples of what can be done about that. as you say rebalancing, you know, they are now beginning to talk together. That's what it sounds certainly from raw. What Josh is saying is that they are now coming together either at a national level to talk about that rebalancing because it's not just about technical solutions. You have to start Wayne: No. Iain Gulland: thinking differently about the market and even the fiscal, you know, framing of this. in a way that makes that happen, makes their technical solutions much more attractive. I think that's really important because I think sometimes we've talked about this before, when I was involved in resource efficiency and energy efficiency and stuff like that, people said, well, the solutions are out there, just go and buy them. Wayne: Yeah. Yeah. Iain Gulland: But they were always, and they were the technical thing, you know how to dim your lights and put insulation on your walls and all that stuff is out there. But actually the economics around it or the the market landscape for that stuff to get into the mainstream was always challenging. That's what really held a lot of back to some extent until. everybody started to get to grips with that, the fiscal incentives which are still there. mean, lot of people still need some of these markets even for energy efficiency, still need subsidies to make happen. Wayne: 100%. Yeah. But it seems, it seems to me that it like any rational business that had any semblance of a supply chain that extends beyond the borders of your country, it seems to me any rational business really must be looking at or should be looking at how it can mitigate the risk that those supply chains must, must now put on the business. And Probably one of the key, if not central ways of doing that is to employ some kind of circular economy strategy to help reduce the length of your supply chain. mean, it's just good business, isn't it? Even more so now. So, yeah, I wonder if maybe we do need businesses to be bolder. or more vociferous in kind of government that that's the way, the direction in which, you know, they should be moving in order to protect us, but I don't know. Iain Gulland: I think that voice is very important. think Joss articulated that as much as anybody else has. Wayne: Hmm. Iain Gulland: Whether that's at a local level, whether it's a national, sub-national or Wayne: Hmm. Iain Gulland: European level or at the global level. So I think it would be really interesting to see or certainly to hear how loud that voice is in Turkey when we get there Wayne: Yeah. Iain Gulland: in November. Because you're right, I'm not naive. There will always be a business voice which is slightly more lobbying against something. mean, I'm not, yeah, but it feels like for circularity, do need that much more positive framing of it from businesses. Because I think, don't think we see, we don't hear that enough. That's my perspective, I guess. from a UK, even from a European perspective. And if it is a voice, it's a bit fragmented. I guess that's the thing I was coming to. It's the fact that you brought all of these organizations together, all these businesses together, cross-sectoral. That's, I think, the important thing, rather than specifically saying it's all about textile industry, arguing for something or arguing against something. mean, don't get me wrong, that's all very important. But I think from a circular point of view, it's that broader spectrum of... corporate organisations coming together. think that's a powerful perspective I think. the other thing he did talk about, is something we probably do need to think about, is that whole thing about metrics. Wayne: Metrics, yeah. I thought his, yeah. Iain Gulland: That's true. I think we did talk about this in one of our sessions, but I think that comes through in some of the conversations I've had with people. spot. Wayne: Yeah, how do we account for savings? Yeah, that the circuit, yeah. Iain Gulland: Yeah, exactly. that's right. even individual businesses are asking, you know, I mean, I've said that before to you, some of the business I've talked to here in Scotland say that to me, you know, like, how can they account for the circularity? They're doing circular, they're trying to do stuff and they want to be able to demonstrate that back to whether it's funders, financiers. local government, central government, you you name it. They want to tell this is the impact we're having, but what is that metric? You know, know that's not a silver bullet having been involved in it with Zero Way Scotland. There isn't a one, you know, this is it. But everybody's thinking about this and... you know, just saying, probably every country, every city, everybody's thinking about it, probably working on it, they've probably got a research team. I could be bringing all these people together to say, look, let's come up with one common way of demonstrating accounting for circularity in a way that makes sense and then opens doors for finance, you know, for, you know, better representation of what the circular is about. Wayne: I mean, for someone who, like me, who wants to talk more about circularity than waste, isn't... I've always been struck by the fact that it isn't the best indicator waste. Like how much waste you reduce. But maybe I'm just being naive. But like, isn't that the point? Iain Gulland: Well, before you and I have this discussion, I think maybe we do have to bring somebody in. I Wayne: Yeah Iain Gulland: mean, I say, yeah, but then the challenges about that, because it doesn't, you can reduce your waste and still consume a hell of a lot. You know, you could still up your consumption. You could downstream the materials at end of life and, you know, outside of the waste, you know, legislation. But you could potentially, I'm trying to think of an example as I speak, Wayne: Yeah. Iain Gulland: but my team have played that back to me that my ex team, my Zero East Scotland team used to play that back. There are examples, I can't remember any of them, where, yeah, you could still, you could reduce the waste by a particular, but Wayne: still be extracted. Iain Gulland: you could still be extracting, or you could still be extracting, you'd be extracting more, but you could, and would you actually, would it be much more circular? Wayne: Yeah, okay, well maybe that's definitely really interesting. Iain Gulland: I know there's other Wayne: Yeah. Iain Gulland: countries, people thinking about this. I'm probably working on it. lot of researchers, analysts, and it just feels there's an opportunity there. Maybe that's what we should be talking about at COP as much as anything