Latest / K12ArtChat the Podcast / Episode 267 – Paul Kretchmer – Happy Art Teacher Rules for Sustaining Meaningful Growth

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Episode 267 – Paul Kretchmer – Happy Art Teacher Rules for Sustaining Meaningful Growth · K12ArtChat the Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, I'm Mark Grundler and I'm Mike Grundler.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: And today on the Cable of Art Channel podcast, we'll be chatting with Paul Kretschmer about the happy art teacher practices for sustaining meaningful growth.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well, um that was quite a uh a a pre-warm-up conversation.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I think most people that know us know that we love to have our our longtime art friends on the podcast and uh catch up with with those connected to you know not just uh you and I, but the community at large and the field of art education.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um this is such a good friend.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so we have known Paul for it feels like so long um through the Texas Art Education Association.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then um just really, I feel like I got to know Paul best when we were both administrators, and I was in uh Plano ISD and he was in Austin ISD.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, you know, we were we we sat on some panels together for different conferences, we worked together.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Paul was in charge of all the awards for the state of Texas.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, big job.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, he's done so much, and then I had the joy and privilege of uh facilitating Sal with Paul as one of the the participants in it feels like a long time ago, but it wasn't.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and what I really love about our good friend is that even though he is not um he's retired now, but he is continually supporting the field and and sharing about knowledge and reflecting.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So Paul Kretschmer, welcome to K 12 Art Chat the podcast.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: We are thrilled to have you back on.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um just we adore you and we um want to say thanks for all you do up front and then we and behind the scenes.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And behind the scenes.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: But also if you could just take a few minutes.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of did a little intro of you, but if you could tell us more about yourself and your art education journey, I'm sure listeners that aren't familiar with you would love to know.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, Laura and Matt, and thanks again for having me here.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it is always awesome to see you guys.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I'm Paul Kretschmer, and as you said, an art educator, artist, uh, an advocate.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I spent 20 years in public education in Austin, 13 of those in the classroom, and then seven supporting visual arts and other arts teachers uh as an administrator.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I retired from AISD just a couple of years ago, but apparently, as my husband reminds me, I am not very good at retiring from art education.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm still making art, writing, presenting, working with other other art educators, and thinking a lot about what makes a creative life and a life in teaching meaningful and sustainable.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a lot of my work is centered on creating art spaces where people feel like they belong, where their voices matter, where they feel like they have permission to be creative and take risks and be their authentic self.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: So most recently, I've been interested in what teachers need to stay creative and curious and connected, and all of those things while doing their actual work as educators.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really where the uh the things that we are going to talk about today sort of became more focused.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's how beyond survival cultivating the happy art teacher sort of lives in my daily practice as I'm trying to bring that to fruition and um connects back with our original conversations about the happy art teacher rules.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: So um this podcast we did what three years ago is sort of like gonna get a cherry on the top of the cupcake um to see and some extra sprinkles and all kinds of things.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: All the fun things and delicious.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I I for us, so our podcast last week, we Matt and I were just talking about this need uh for continuing to build community and connection with other art educators and really looking for the just the sharing and the tips, sharing tips, sharing ideas, sharing and being in community with each other.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really, you know, every uh fall it feels like the since you've been writing this book, you know, it kind of got me thinking about the the sharing that you've been doing.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, what a perfect connection to what we talked about last week.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of where my brain was when I was like, oh, we need to have Paul back on because he's, you know, you're sharing these things.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the you know, the happy art teacher rules is kind of where it started, but it's evolved so much from there.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I will, I'm gonna, I I'm I'm taking up all the air, so I'm gonna let my husband ask us the next the first question.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you started to uh you started to kind of go into why it was important to you.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just curious if you can kind of excuse me, um, expand a little bit more about why, you know, the the things you've been posting on social media as far as the the happy teacher, happy art teacher rules, um, you know, have been wonderful because they're just so concise and they give you something to think about and something to kind of reflect on.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just really curious if you could kind of expand more of why that's important to you and you know to share with other art educators.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as a I feel like they're important for me.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they became um they sort of evolved from being this quirky fun thing to post during back to school time to give teachers something light for their day, but still have meaningful, useful parts in it.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I was at the School for Art Leaders with an AEA, when I was at Sal, I used it for one of my projects, and it in and the the reflection that comes out of that setting has been like a life-changing positive thing for me.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I looked at them and reflected on um where they were and where I thought they should be in relationship to art teachers, um I started to realize that my my vision was sort of more clear about how they could be useful in the art teacher, or really many of them in any teacher setting.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think they're important because art teachers especially are asked to hold so much.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're teaching skills and processes, but we're also creating spaces where the young people that work with us can make choices and take risks and figure out what they want to say and how they want to say it.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes they're simultaneously discovering more about themselves.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: So um teachers are trying to sustain their own creativity and humanity while doing all these things that we lay on their shoulders as educators.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when it started, I call them rules a little playfully, but over the last few years I realized I'm less interested in telling teachers what they should do than finding practices to identify with them that can help them create meaningful and sustainable art rooms and still incorporate the joy that I always found in in all my art educator roles.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think Paul, one of the things that we've had a uh uh some really great conversations is about making space for all learners.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking about this idea of practices versus rules, and I'm curious what are some of the practices that you feel allow for art making to have a sense of safety because art making takes vulnerability.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that can be the risk taking that you just mentioned can be really tough for students, especially in the education world that we've laid out for them where they have to, you know, get a certain grade and they have to score on the state standardized test and they have to do this and they have to do that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So this idea of risk taking and vulnerability is really scary for them.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what are some of your um, you know, practice suggestions within your art happy art teacher um lens that that help create that environment?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I really believe that a classroom that's teaching art or almost any of the arts that's beyond the you know the old cookie-cutter days where we copied a model from the teacher and then we used our learned skills to reproduce that.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think we've moved so far beyond that.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I think in that in that transition to making art more connected to our students, you know, the art making asks them and us to put ourselves into the world in some way.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: And we never know how it's gonna be how it's gonna end or how it's gonna be received.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think one of the reasons these these practices have become uh important to me as in my voice as an as an artist is they are um helping us understand how vulnerability can happen in the in this art space in a safe way for students and teachers.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I you know, we talk a lot about in education about how we have to build a relationship with our students, and and what I remember from my days as an art teacher and as an administrator is that is a great challenge because a lot of times your student load is so great that you don't get the in-depth time that you could to do that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to find ways to make that space have the conditions that are going to allow them to be creative.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um when I started refining these, I realized they sort of fell into different groupings.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's kind of what I'm doing now in the introductory one's talking about creating the conditions that make art a safe space for that vulnerability.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um and also, you know, not to let the joy and the humor and the um the fun aspects of what we do be lost to all of the things that have to happen.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that's a that's a really valid, a really valid thing because I I do know as you know, my own personal experience of once you once that school bell rings for the very start of the school year, it's it feels just like go time, you know.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but one of the ways that I was thinking about was, you know, I do my 30 circle challenges with my students to kind of get them through, think through the idea of just, you know, crazy, silly ideas, you know, odd, different, you know, whether it's good, bad, or indifferent, it doesn't matter, but just thinking about different things.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then that that kind of starts out our school year and kind of sets the tone, um, where kids are a lot more, I think, willing at that point to then start to be, you know, a little bit more creative in how they're in their thought process.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's it it's interesting.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, we have three children, and I was just thinking about some of the conversations I've had, especially with our daughters who are, you know, both artists, um, but very different human beings.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is the modeling.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so what you're talking about right now, Matt and Paul, is this idea of like, you know, if I as the as a teacher am modeling, I'm doing this 30 circle thirty 30 circle challenge with my students and being joyful and thinking outside the box and like showing them it's okay to, you know, if there's 30 circles, not all of them are gonna be great.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are gonna be kind of, you know, and you show them that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think one of the things going back to our own daughters is, you know, they will come home and say it's it's probably not fair, honestly, because having two parents as art educators, they come home and they critique their art teachers, and it's not it's not fair.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: I it it is what it is.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: But they'll say things like, hey, uh, you know, every year when they get a new art teacher, they'll notice real quick if the art teacher is making art with them, or if the art teacher is just pontificating, or it, you know, and it's it's very interesting to me listening to them who they gravitate to and who they don't.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And almost always it's the art teacher that's somewhat participatory with them and modeling with them and showing that you know what I am not great at all skills.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I as an artist, I am not a potter.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot throw in the wheel.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I have tried, I don't think I have the the centeredness for it, but I am I'm pretty good at mixed media and like those are the things, but those are the things I loved to share with my students is that like, hey, look, you're really good at that.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Mrs.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Grundler is not so great at that, but like we can learn together, and and I think that that's something that that we're talking about about creating that that vulnerability and really thinking that through.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I um the I recently went through um because I'm updating as I go and posting social media and trying to be done by the end of September, but um one of them is make reflection part of the process.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so you know, asking what happened, where were the surprises, what would you try next?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: And exactly what you said, Lori.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm looking at my notes and it says, I think teachers have to model that too.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we can't let students see us try something.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: We can let students see us try something, reconsider it, revise it, and sometimes say, Well, that didn't work.
• 14:47
  unknown: Right.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: What did I learn?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's it.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not that we're trying to make students comfortable with failure.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's to help them understand that an unsuccessful attempt isn't the same thing as being unsuccessful.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um making and noticing and adjusting and trying again is part of the creative process.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's iteration.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's design thinking, it's the creative process, it's all of that, you know?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that that's one of the things, like if we're gonna create a society that can move forward in this very unique world that we live in right now, in this unique time, they have to be comfortable with flexibility and iteration.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that unfortunately a lot of our system does not have space for, but we do have space for in the art classroom.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's, you know, going back to what you first said, Paul, about holding so much as the art educator.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think, I think we see that.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying we're the only ones that see that, but we definitely understand and see this bigger picture.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, it's one of the things when I was an art teacher, people used to say, Well, you know, your kids aren't all gonna grow up and be painters.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, really, they're not.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I know that, but they're gonna be living a creative society and they have to be able to think and they have to be able to think creatively, and you know, they might grow up and be an engineer and they still have to be able to create and think iteratively, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's part of that, right?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, because I feel like educators and art educators, especially, like they have so much um wisdom, but it's all living like informally in their anecdotes, in their conversations with their colleagues, in their practice with their kids.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I feel like I want to gather some of that wisdom and share what I've learned and let other art teachers join that conversation.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's the new thing that I'm doing when I do the social media posts.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I'd love to have your feedback.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, have you tried things like this?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: What do you feel is working with your kids?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is this are you, you know, how do you get to this place with your kids?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because I don't feel like what I'm saying is pressure and never been heard before, but I'm trying to put it into a context where, you know, it's not so much about the art teacher being happy all the time, but what are we doing that's sustainable that other people could do um to make their practice and their teaching and their personal art making more sustainable?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Paul, I think again, hitting on so many valuable and important things, I'm, you know, was also while you and Laura were talking, was sitting here thinking about that idea, you know, you were mentioning about not trying to make kids okay with failure, but where you go from there and kind of that resourcefulness of, you know, of not necessarily resourceful of what's around me, what can I make?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: It is how do I go through that?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I keep thinking about, you know, whatever your take is on Bob Ross, I'm just I'm always that quote of happy accidents or the basically if you mess up, what do you do with it?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what do you do with it at that point?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things kids are so apt to throw it away.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, hey, put that in your journal, hold on to it for later.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: We'll come back, we'll do something else with it.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you can cut it up, you can draw back in it, you can collage, you can do all these things with it instead of just crumbling it up, throwing it away.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: I will forever love beautiful oops.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was one of my favorite elementary art books, and I think so many people still use it for that reason.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Paul, thinking about the sustainability, one of the things that I've been having a lot of conversations, especially with my um, because I'm still in friends with a a lot of people that are still um either curriculum supervisors or principals or in in some kind of uh supervisory role is and and they're telling me that there is like this burnout and it doesn't feel sustainable.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I hear from teachers is that it's it's the it's just the amount of everything, and then on top of it, the classroom management, right?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: So like you you're doing so much, and then also you're just trying to keep the chaos in check.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm curious, you know, when you're thinking about your your happy art teacher practices, what are some keys to keep things moving forward or in the right direction?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't know if calm is the right word, but like um, you know, we did a we did a podcast recently about using our our internal thermostat.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think that there's there's time and place for all different emotions in teaching.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if calm is the right word, but keeping things moving in the right direction.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just curious what your your thoughts are around some of those practices.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's fun to hear you say your internal thermometer.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: For me, it has always been my internal speedometer.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um like I know as the, you know, as the creative, bossy, loving, empathic art person that I am, that it's very easy to get my speedometer up to 100 if the situation calls for it.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what I'm finding um as I go through this process and the other things that I'm able to spend time on in this retirement phase, and I and I I I shudder to think about calling it a phase, but I feel like there's something coming that I'm trying to ease into, and I don't know what that is yet, so I'm open because I don't feel like I'm gonna spend the rest of my uh retirement, you know, on that rocking chair that they gave me from the fine arts office that will be reserved, but that internal speediness, not just noticing it, but you know, reflecting, does my current level of internal speed speediness match the needs of what I'm doing?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so if it doesn't, then it I can go up or down as needed.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And what I find is you know, one of my experiments was around doodling, and that's not it's it's you know, nothing is a consistent everyday practice except for breathing and and such and sleeping sometimes.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I find that if I like if I take my blood pressure in the morning and I'm not happy with the results, it's like okay, I can doodle, or I can go sit on the back and look at the leaves on the tree.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's like no devices, you know, maybe a cat in my laptop pet, but not um not stressing about noticing that my speediness is high, but like, okay, what is that leading me to do next?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do I need to write something down and get it out of my head so that I can let it mull in the background?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Do I need to do a doodle?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is there A piece of work that I'm working on that I need to go spend five minutes with that, you know, to just step aside from whatever the daily turmoil is that's caught me.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that um iteration that you talked about earlier, I think that's it.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like understanding that everything is in iterations.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, there's no finished masterpiece that's gonna get the gold frame.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's gonna be a lot of things that felt finished at the time that get to live in that gold frame for a while.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: But like whether it's art or relationships or you know, dealing with pets, it's like what worked?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: What do I want to try again?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: Where do I want to grow and stretch?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: And where am I like locked in stone and never gonna change that?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And there aren't as many of those.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, also, though, I think that's part of the fun of being an educator.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is you know, I I started every year thinking these are new kids, every period that I teach is different, every group and combination of students is different, like and and you're constantly trying to find what works for them, right?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And what routines worked with one class might not work with another class.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's that's part of it too.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I love this idea of the internal speedometer because I think that completely translates to classroom as well, because you know, especially as I'm I'm reading more.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, our good friend Rain Valentine.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, love her.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Love her, right?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like her and Jane Dalton have done work around mindfulness in the classroom.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And like, how can you pull that, how can you monitor the speedometer of the classroom too, so you can pull in some of those same techniques you were talking about for sustainability of the educator to the to the calm and sustainability of that classroom and keeping those kids moving forward.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that those are good techniques and thoughtfulness things to to consider in both ways, you know.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: That I I can only imagine, and that I I only substituted it at elementary, but I can only imagine that there are times with kindergartners that that speedometer is running at 100 miles an hour and you need to slow them down.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: The um yeah, I feel like that transition for me from rules to practices, that was like an aha moom, or I thought, yeah, there's already plenty of rules in all of education.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: We don't need to add to that burden of rules.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think it comes back to what you were sort of talking about, Laura and Matt.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about like I don't like which of these rules are for third grade and which of these rules work in kindergarten.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's more like these are practices to help you pay attention to the actual human being who's walked into your room today.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: And what does any practice or technique or skill look like for the artist like in front of me right now?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, of course, Paul, you had to kind of steal the direction I was going in to ask you that same question because Laura was talking about the book Beautiful Oops, and I started thinking about, oh yeah, it was really good when I did it in elementary school or when I taught it in elementary school.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that Laura has also mentioned that several times that, you know, a book can be shared.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we just previously had Dot Day, and I was, you know, I did the the video read along of the dot with little with my middle schoolers.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they there's still something, still that childlike quality that no matter the age, they still really thoroughly enjoy that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think that can reflect on your your educator um philosophy, like the core of your, you know, your teaching philosophy.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: One one of the things, no matter the age, what is it you're gonna stick with?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just kind of curious if you can kind of chime in a little bit more, because you know, you're going from kindergarten, you know, six-year-olds all the way up to you know what we call in Texas our senior high, which is you know, 17, 18-year-olds.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean, and well, and so many of our friends are now teaching pre-K.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the little two and a half, three-year-olds in the public schools.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, it's it's you know, what's I guess the question really is, Paul, what what are some of the things that you rely on or you relied on to keep your joint energy?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: No matter the age you were teaching.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would say, so like you're talking, you were talking about um Peter, and I'm so excited that we're gonna have him as part of the the New York conference here in November.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think virtually, but he's one of our keynotes.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, wow, I get a little bit closer to actually meeting him every year.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um but um I think like regardless of what grade or age or media or skill you're teaching, I think it's that um staying connected.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: So when you were talking, Matt, about beautiful oops, and then you talked about um Peter Reynolds' work, and I was like, okay, I'm getting goosebumps remembering some of the kids' reactions when we read Ish.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um and how some of them wanted to go, we had this app that would read the book to them.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: They could do it on their own device on their own, like they wanted to reread that book until they got what they needed from it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm reminded how in my in my early years, because my most of my classroom teaching was elementary, um, I got to do high school and summer session, but I remember um every September pulling out Peach and Blue.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: And like I still get goosebumps just remembering reading that story and using it as a as a grounding for an art lesson and talking about colors and change and those things, and um and the the what's the word I want, the how ephemeral, like everything is coming and going, and where you are in kindergarten today is only going to be the way you are today.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Tomorrow you're gonna be crossing a different river.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that connection to what catches your heart at any age and what you can do to reignite those things when you have students who are older.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, yeah, but don't you remember when you would do this?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was having a conversation and it was like, why do you always pick blue?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I remember seeing that oldest of six kids who got to go by himself to stay at my grandmother's, and she had one of those desks where the the writing surface rolls down and all the little cubbies, and she had a box of crayons that she told me, and I believed her, she only brought out when I was there.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember sitting and going through that box of cleryons to find my favorite because she said, What's your favorite color?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it was midnight blue.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, I if I need to ground myself, then I get out midnight blue and I doodle or jar whatever it is.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's because I remember that she was one of the first people that made me feel like my art was worth doing, like she loved it.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: It even if it just went to the refrigerator, um, that connection.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, now I'm older and I have more to reflect on, and I could talk for hours, but I'm like, oh, I remember the art teacher who sent me care packages because my family moved us from New York to Louisiana, and there was no art class that I could take.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember the art teacher who let us stand on the table and dip brushes and cans of melted wax on a hot plate because art room safety was not the big, you know, lawsuit that it is today.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: But like she trusted us to do those things because she saw that you know, we were experimenting and learning, and it may not have been her vision, but she was there, you know, letting us get messy, um and and making that environment where we where we felt safe doing creative things.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not only been in my art rooms, so that you know, I love to be in school.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: I wish somebody would just pay me to go to class for the rest of my life.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I feel like joy is that um returning to things that make us able to be who we are, um, and that things that give us permission to be to even have joy in as challenging times as we may be living in.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um we're more than the work we do.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, my art making is with materials, but sometimes it's with people.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and sometimes it's just me and noticing, like, don't take my phone when I walk the dog because I want to see the shapes of the trees um and and hear the birds, and and you know, that scent that comes when you brush your hands through the pine tree, or that sparkling thing that my husband noticed at the park where the the pine cones are making their sap, and so it's sort of like they're crystallized with glitter.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because we haven't talked about glitter at all, and that's okay.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, glitter.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the um and so I think it's like what you find with whatever group you're if going back to the teaching thought, like what do you find that helps you connect with them?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: It may be that silly what does the Fox Day video that a fifth grader asked me to play?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um or you know, something that's not necessarily in the art curriculum, but it makes the art room feel like it's their space.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, and I I just want to say like those connections and those memories, it it's you know, I will run into students and sometimes they remember the funniest things that I've completely forgotten, but they have these great memories of something we did, you know.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I taught, you know, ninth grade a lot here in Plano.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so mostly art one and honors art one.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for all my classes, um I would have kids go out in the hallway in like two at a time and lay out like four or five pieces just to see so they could see their growth.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I will have kids come up to me and they'll be like, You're the only one that like ever had us go out and work in the hallway and like you would make us think about like what am I doing and how can I grow?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and just like, and to me, that was just part of my everyday like that.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I did that on a regular basis.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a big deal to me, but they have, you know, it's interesting when kids have core memories about those things.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that brings joy to me is when I, you know, and uh most of the time we don't ever get to hear that, right?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: We don't get to hear what the those those kids' core memories and kids, oh my gosh, now I ran into one and she's like 37 years old as kids in middle school, and I'm like, holy cow.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, just hearing from them and and like and and you know what, just bringing it kind of full circle to our conversation, Paul.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: So many times if you have the opportunity to run into a former student, one of the biggest joys is hearing that they felt safe in your classroom and that they knew they were cared for and they knew that they could create and they knew that their individual, you know, human person was okay to be there.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I that that is the biggest joy to me about teaching.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: So just wanted to kind of bring that front circle about because I know that that's really important to all three of us in this conversation.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for for our teachers especially, I would say, you know, remember that you're more than the work you do.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um you have your own art making.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: You have people that you love.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: For me, that's you know, being outside, noticing things, learning things.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: They're not distractions from being a good educator.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: They're part of what keeps me whole and creative and still want to be an educator even in this retired mode.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I feel like like, you know, like if I wanted to wrap it up into one thing in a nutshell, I would say it's just stay connected to what matters and protect the things that make you feel alive.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Paul, I was gonna ask you for uh our our hardest question, but I already answered it.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think actually I'm gonna kind of spin it a little bit and and kind of you know turn it back to the uh the happy art teacher rules.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've been an administrator over art teachers have guided, you know, numerous student teachers and and pre-service teachers.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just really curious if there is one of those happy art teacher rules that you would like for all you know teachers to hear, to know, to kind of abide by in some way, you know, from from day one in their classrooms to just kind of keep things joyful and energized in their in the studio or their classrooms.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I I feel like like I'm looking at they're down, I'm down to 28 now, and I have the list in front of me, and I'm like, I have to pick just one.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Pick your favorite kid, is basically.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: But my heart of hearts is gonna go back to glitter.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um because and and for a couple of reasons.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: One is because I feel like um, not that glitter has a bad rap, it really is an apex predator.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know if you saw that Instagram, I'll send it to you in case you didn't.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we sometimes have a knack, especially in public education, for like working the joy out of glitter.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, and and I actually wrote this to myself yesterday, but because you asked me to pick one, I'm gonna pick what used to be rule number 13.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's gonna be in the sustaining the teacher section, and it won't be 13 anymore, although that is my favorite number.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I don't want to overintellectualize glitter and like take the glitter out, the joy out of glitter.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um partly I pick it because it can be funny, but it can be challenging.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I wanted to craft a resource that includes serious thinking about teaching without forgetting that art rooms and art teachers are funny, unruly, gloriously messy places.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um creativity is messy, and don't forget glitter can be forever.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and yes, just all of that.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness, Paul.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: You just you just you I'm like I'm I'm I'm over here because I haven't slept much this week and I'm crying.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's like all happy, happy.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm just I love being in your presence.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: I love having this talk with you.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And just thank you for being our friend and for being a colleague that continues to support and mentor and bring positivity in.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're presenting at the upcoming national conference, so congratulations on getting your presentations accepted.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm just I cannot wait to give you a hug in New York.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, um, I'm giving you air hugs now, and I think about you and your family um a lot just because I I I feel like you are like, and it's not that you're rock stars, but although I know you are, but like you're still like Matt is still connected to that daily touching students, and you are touching so many people with the work that you do at NAEA um and K-12, RChat, and just all the ways that you reach out to um to lift us up.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I I of course tagged you and thought of you both when I started doing my September run for these, but I, you know, I just feel like every art teacher needs a community that can hear them when they need to complain, that can guide them to the right beverage when they need a break, that um, you know, that will draw them back from the precipice when that thing happened.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that that assistant principal who thinks they know art asks the question about a kindergartner in the second week of school when you're just happy that you got them in the room and in their chairs.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, um every opportunity that I get to to do fun and cool or serious things with you guys, I'm always gonna jump on.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate you reaching out to me and letting me put my uh my thoughts out onto a larger platform.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, friend.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't cried in a while.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you give me a hard time for always crying on the podcast, but it's like happy not most of the time it's like happy, happy tears because it's like they're just people doing great things for students and for each other and for teachers.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we get so much of the negative narrative in our life.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, I I'm trying to just combat that negativity.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I love having conversations like this because you know, here's Paul, who's retired, could just easily slide out of this world and still.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like, no, I don't mean that.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: That didn't sound right.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I mean like just step aside from art education.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I mean.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, gotcha.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, he sees and values that he has expertise from uh experience and that, you know, he can still support other teachers and be part of a community that is supportive.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that so much.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the wisdom that that he shared.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I he's a he's a super solid friend, and I just I really appreciate him.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, I did tear up, but it was tears of joy.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm I mean, I think I, you know, you get this, you get this sense of I I know me personally, I end up reflecting after every podcast that we do on some type of aspect of teaching, of life, of all the things.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you just, you know, you you do.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: You you reflect on emotions kind of just come up because it one either makes you really happy about it and you connect with it that way, or you just start to reflect on it and go, yeah, what can I do better?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there's just, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot there.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and it I I think it it keeps me fueled.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: These conversations really keep me fueled.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: It it really helps center me on uh what my purpose is and my mission, and I I just appreciate it so much.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: So shout out to Paul for giving me that that that feeling um and knowing that the pathway is the right pathway.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um, Matt, yes, Paul is always really good about sharing resources.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: So where can we find those resources that Paul has shared for this podcast?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the best place to look for those is going to be on davisart.com.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Underneath uh free resources, you'll find our podcast along with all of the episodes, but each episode has its own individual resource page.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll be able to click on resources for his episode and find everything right there.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, side note, I think we should well, side note is I think Paul should write an article in school arts about his uh the practices for healthy of the art teacher.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that would be.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and did you know if you're an NAE member that you get school arts for free?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I I did remember hearing that, but I probably forgot, but I'm glad you reminded me.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a benefit of membership for NAEA.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks to everybody for providing that too.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um so if you if you want more resources, um become an NAE a member and get school arts for hey, what if what if somebody is really struggling to find that information or any kind of information, or maybe they know somebody to to uh that they want us to interview or a topic?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: How do they do that?
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're always welcome to reach out to the two of us or to Davis, either one.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: So Instagram for Davis is at schoolarts, and then for us, it's at the creativity D E P T.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we would love it if you reach out to us on Instagram.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um you can DM us.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have that turned off, so send us a DM.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've had some great conversations over the last year through DM that have actually led to podcasts.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um send us, you know, your thoughts.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: We like the feedback.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: We like to know what you're thinking.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: The other way, Matt, is through email.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: Can you share our email with them?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Our email is thecreativitypt at gmail.com.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear from you.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think that's mostly everything.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know what one more thing.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: If our listeners could uh rate and review the podcast wherever you listen to it, subscribe to it.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: We try to have a new episode out most Thursdays.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh we'd love you to listen to it when it's fresh.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure you subscribe, rate, review, helps us keep everything going and providing this free resource for you.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: But most of all, we want to thank you for listening and wish you a very creative week ahead.