Latest / Rural-E / Right Truck, Right Route: What Really Works in Fleet Electrification with Michael Graham of Sapien

Transcript

Right Truck, Right Route: What Really Works in Fleet Electrification with Michael Graham of Sapien · Rural-E

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like as Americans, we hate being told what to do.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that now the economics of driving electric are starting to come back into focus.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And as the primary driver of why folks want to do this, I mean, especially with like a foreign war driving up the cost of oil, the economics look really good right now.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, welcome to Rule E.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: And on this episode, uh have a pleasure of bringing in Michael Brand.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: And Michael is uh from the Portland area and has helped a lot in the EV market and bringing some new technologies in and a lot with the funding and stuff.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I even I myself am going to learn a little bit about what Mike has been up to.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so welcome, Michael.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us on Rule E here today.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, just to get started, I don't know if you could give us a little background on uh how you got where you're at today and you know how you got into your current company that you're running now.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe is it is it sapien?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is that your is that how you so uh why don't you you know kind of go back to as you were uh you know getting into this space and stuff and kind of give us a little background on Michael?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a recovering Californian, you know, I've been in Oregon now for 14 years, and uh you know it all started coming out of undergrad in environmental studies, and I just was like, I'm really interested in energy, but really can't use an environmental studies degree.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I went into a graduate program in community regional planning and found my way into an unpaid internship with the Oregon Department of Energy.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then through that met a guide a nonprofit, started working both those internships at the same time, and then uh fell into that nonprofit job full-time.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that led to another eight years of working in this alternative fuels and transportation space.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think most of that work was around like connecting folks, you know, de-siloing, uh, developing new projects around clean transportation.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh about two years ago, I decided, you know what, I uh I feel like I've kind of hit my ceiling here.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to go try this out on my own.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I uh hung my own shingle, started my own business, and have been doing pretty much what I was doing at the nonprofit, you know, advising fleets on clean transportation projects, funding, helping them implement funded projects, and then managing their carbon credits into clean fuels programs.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So basically that the internship with Oregon Department of Energy, then that must have been what brought you to to Oregon from California.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was it was undergrad, yeah, back in 2012.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what exactly were you doing?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like what was your your assignment?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: What was your project there with Oregon Department of Energy when you first got started?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Good old SB334.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was around uh biogas and renewable natural gas.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: The job was to develop a statewide inventory on all of the resources across the state that could be used to produce biogas and renewable natural gas.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then um, how long was you there?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was in that internship role, I want to say about six months.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was supposed to only last a summer, but I asked the the folks that I was working with if I could keep on uh to finish the report.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, sure, we've never really been asked that question.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then that it kind of led into a full-time job that I was able to uh apply for and secure to continue working in the alternative fuel space at Odo for about a year.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you after the internship, then you stayed around Odo also for what year did you say that was?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: 2000?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like 2018, 2019.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was in a two-year master's program and commuting to Salem two or three times a week to work this internship.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And probably the best part about that role was uh we were I was working with a mentor, his name was Dan Avery, and we were uh supporting a policy advisory committee.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got to meet basically the who's who of the alternative fuels world in Oregon through that work.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then um how did that how was that move for you?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Was it you know from California up to Oregon and Pacific Northwest was similar to what you were?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it was best decision I ever made.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, I like I grew up in California in Los Angeles area, and I never really felt like at home.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like some of my favorite times were summers spent on like the east side of the Sierras, you know, yeah, out in the mountains.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think moving to Oregon for me was such a nice change of pace, scenery, people I think are a little nicer, the water's better.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I enjoy seasons, so it was a really good move.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's cool.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just I've always kind of you know born and raised here in Oregon, so I always like to ask folks, you know, what was it that drew you to this area?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you know, do you like it?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And those types of things.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's yeah, thanks for sharing them.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So of course after you had worked with um Oregon Department of Energy, and then was it the Clean Cities Coalition that you were you were at?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Columbia Will Amit Clean Cities Coalition.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was based out of Portland, but covered pretty much the entire state.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: What what exactly were you doing there?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like what kind of work were you doing?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: The at the beginning, I wasn't quite sure.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh policy and you know, putting together events with my uh my then boss Brian Trice, like uh little networking events.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he ran the Green Transportation Summit and Expo.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then the the I kind of carved out my own role there developing clean transportation programs that were funded by grants.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would apply on the behalf of the coalition for grant funding from, say, the PGE Drive Change Fund or U.S.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Department of Energy Vehicle Technologies Office, uh, EPA's uh diesel emission reduction at DIRA program.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And these funded projects would not only fund uh like a essentially like a project or a program that the coalition was doing, but also uh end user fleets or industry stakeholders to do something like scrap a diesel truck with an electric or start up a workplace charging education and technical assistance program across the country.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm just thinking back because uh when we first got involved with the EFARS program, the Clean Cities Coalition had an event at the Portland International Raceway and brought in a bunch of different electric uh trucks and vehicles and such.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we took down one of the first electric uh farm tractors that we had to that.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, cool.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, were you involved in that?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: That would have been uh I don't know, maybe 2020 or 21.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: I might have been putting together the email flyer at that time.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was I wasn't quite the maestro that was putting the actual ride and drive together.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: That that one uh fell into Brian Trice's lap.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just know for me that that was really the one of the first times I had seen some of these electric vehicles.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we were there with uh electric tractor, as I mentioned.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody was you know kind of impressed by it because they'd never seen an electric tractor and and just watching some of the freetliner trucks and stuff they had on the kind of the drag strip area there and the guys taking off on those trucks and and uh just seeing things that I hadn't seen before at that event.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't know if they were there, maybe, uh or help organize it and stuff.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so it sounds like you've been, you know, working in fleet electrication for quite a few years and stuff, and then you you found your own organization now.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so is the work you're doing now similar to what you were doing for the with the clean cities, or what what's different?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little different.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's clean cities work was very much what we called fuel agnostic, and we were supporting all of the alternative fuels: propane, natural gas, biodiesel, renewable diesel, uh, even hydrogen fuel cell.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say majority of the work was education and like essentially like helping fleets uh understand the pros and cons of certain fuels and how they might fit into their operations, and not necessarily pushing a certain fuel or solution, but just giving them the information they need to make an informed decision.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I carried a lot of that into my current role, which is like I just want to give you all of the information to make an informed decision.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: The difference is that most of the interest is coming from the electrification arena right now.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: So is that the like your primary focus now, electrification versus the alternate fuels, propane, natural gas, and such?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it just because of the interest I'm getting, but man, I love talking about renewable natural gas or renewable diesel.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I love all of the fuels, I think they all have really cool benefits and uh good niches that they can live in to help flee swiftly, you know, certain use cases that aren't a good fit for electrification.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: On that, you tell me what renewable diesel is versus bioles.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times I asked that question, and I know we were up at the uh uh Tacoma Green Transportation Show and one of the fuel local fuel distributors there, and they were advertising renewable diesel, and it's basically a drop-in fuel for existing diesel engines and diesel trucks and such.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh can you like educate me on what's the difference between renewable diesel and biodiesel?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think it's helpful to start with like what is conventional diesel.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hydrocarbon molecule, right?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: From from oil.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And biodiesel came about, you know, early 2000s.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was in increasingly popular.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, biodiesel you can pretty much make in your garage if you so wanted, right?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you can make it from uh a lot of waste feedstocks, you know, used cooking oil is one of the most popular um the residuals from crushing soybeans during the food production process, um, and you know, fat soils, freeces, that kind of stuff.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, the difference with renewable diesel and biodiesel is that biodiesel is um it kind of mimics uh conventional diesel.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not quite a hydrocarbon molecule.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but with renewable diesel, you produce it from the same uh waste feedstocks that you do from biodiesel.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: But the difference is that it's actually a hydrocarbon molecule just produced from those renewable organic feedstocks and it meets the same spec as conventional diesel, the ASTM spec.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you can't make renewable diesel in your garage.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: You need a multi-billion dollar petroleum refinery, you hydro-treat it, uh, it goes through this entire process to come out as this basically magical fuel that does everything you need and is actually better than conventional diesel.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: It has, I think, is it a higher C-tane level, you know, than conventional diesel, so it burns a little hotter.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that means less particulate to more complete combustion.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So then you have less particulate going into your diesel particulate filter, so your truck runs better.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it still works well in the cold.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a fantastic drop-in fuel.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you get at least a 40 to 60 percent reduction in your life cycle carbon emissions.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know I was um I was in my diesel pickup and I was down, I was trying to think exactly where I was, down uh wood burner area, and I pulled into a fuel station and all they had was I think it was renewable diesel, and I was like, I don't know if I didn't want to put this in.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna mess my pickup up?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: I went online real quick and I I just needed some fuel.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was low at the time, and I threw some in and then headed up the road.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I never noticed any difference in the in my uh diesel RAM pickup or anything, but um, you know, a lot of times uh folks will ask me about renewable diesel or bioties.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: How popular is renewable diesel right now on Oregon?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any any idea on that?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Or oh, it's exceptionally popular.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's uh yeah, it's it's gained a lot of traction in about 2016.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was kind of it was first introduced into the state.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: A couple fleets like Eugene Water and Electric Board were trialing it, and um, the early indicators were that it was fantastic, but the supply was really hard to nail down.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but today it's a lot more consistent, still a little intermittent.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's increasingly popular just because it's so good, it just runs so well.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe instead of uh maybe I should be seeking renewable diesel.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you can, yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but all right.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think with some of those those uh retail stations, you have to be careful.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen them marketing, you know, renewable diesel on the sign, but then in the fine print below it says B20.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, because there's this conflation that renewable diesel and biodiesel are the same thing.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the big stigma that we were, you know, trying to educate more around with the fleets was that you know, biodiesel is biodiesel, renewable diesel is a new fuel and it's better.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of folks got burned by biodiesel in the early days before you were seeing biodiesel produced in a much better way.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can get biodiesel to say it's a fantastic fuel compared to the early 2000s, but a lot of fleets in the early days got burned from like inconsistent fuel.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was gelling up engines, that kind of stuff.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: People just didn't know how to manage it.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know here locally in Wascor County, the uh conservation district had a program trying to promote biofuel, biodiesel.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it was really interesting.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: They actually went out and bought a diesel, an early um early 2000 Chevy Duramax diesel pickup so they could run biofuel through their own vehicles and stuff, but it never really cost um uh and and so that's why I was kind of curious.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we we want to talk about electrification today with your work and hear her talk about renewable diesel.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I think it has a place because of all the diesel vehicles and and and equipment that are out there today that there may be uh some an another fuel type that could actually provide some benefit and stuff.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so just something to be aware of.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: But on the let's switch gears a little bit to talk about electrification and stuff.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: I know sure.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know you've been involved with uh helping put a lot of projects together and even helping some of these fleets bring in or um identify funding to bring in electric vehicles.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And as you'd mentioned, that that was kind of a you know a focus for you right now.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I see the same thing.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of um, a lot of effort, especially on the medium and heavy duty fleets right now for electrification and stuff.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know if you want to talk about that a little bit.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like what's your role or um in these projects?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is what is it that you can assist some of these fleet operators with?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's identifying funding opportunities and multiple that can stack together and helping folks visualize everything that they could possibly secure to make their project pencil.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then with that information, folks can say, oh, this is something that we can do, or actually there's not enough available.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then also ground truthing what's actually practical.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you if you're a fleet and you're hauling 105.5 down the road and you want an electric truck, I'm probably gonna say that's not really feasible right now.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have to sacrifice some of your payload, and that might not be economical.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if everyone knows what is possible in the with the current technology right now.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's where I thrive is is helping folks understand what they can and can't do.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say would be some ideal situations for electric fleets as far as what's available today?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what would be some good scenarios that you think would be a good man.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you're just doing a plant-to-plant run with a daycab tractor, that is such a sweet spot.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a client right now in Portland, and he's just running you know, this this circular route in North Portland along Marine Drive, up into Washington along that state route, but back to I-5, and it's just a perfect fit.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you're, I mean, you're looking for, you know, you're not hauling too heavy, you know, 80, whatever, 80,000 pounds, or that's you know, the standard weight that you see with the class eight trucks.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, under 200 miles round trip, you know, throughout the entire day, unless you have opportunities to quickly charge um, you know, midday during a lunch break or a shift change, that sort of thing.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think really like idle prone duty cycles too are a really good sweet spot.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you if you're running a route and you you do a lot a lot of idling and not as much actual mileage.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like because with an electric truck, I mean you're not you're not burning any fuel while you're idling, you're just you know sitting there with it with it on.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And with that, I mean I'm thinking either stop and go traffic, you know, a lot of traffic situations, inner city, inner city delivery, everything from your uh your software and delivery trucks, uh maybe fresh foods that comes downtown and stuff like that.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then I will say though, like the the new Tesla product that we've seen, that expands the range, right?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I think they have I mean what you're more familiar with the range maximum.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if I'm quite familiar.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, from what we're seeing, they've got two different models.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: They have the standard range, which is uh, I think about 350 to 380 miles, and then the extended range or the long range trucks, which are um right at 500 miles, and that's calculated at 80,000 pound gross vehicle weight, so fully loaded uh with that range and stuff is what we're seeing.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um we're waiting to see some of those trucks here um in the Pacific Northwest.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know that there's some of them, but you don't see them very often in the wild.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say I don't know.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Are you seeing any any Tesla semis in Portland?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Not in Oregon, but when I go home to visit my folks in California, you do see a couple.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I'm I've seen them at the different uh like DAFT Expo and and the ride and drive events.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: We had one in Portland here a couple weeks ago.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: You and I were both down at Portland and International Raceways, part of the uh kind of the e-fleet program kickoff that uh EPG and put together.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Did you get a chance to ride in that Tesla Semai?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: I did not know.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't know I didn't ride in it, but I've been in the cab many times, and I love I love the center arrangement of the seat and like the the visuals that you have.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's a really well put together truck.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that same same here.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I actually um kind of one of my first jobs out of college was driving truck, and it was just it wasn't the direction I was gonna go, but I've spent a lot of time driving up and down the threeway in a semi-truck myself.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And to get in there and be in the center of that and then the screens, and it I don't know.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I have not been able, you know, I haven't been able to drive a Tesla semi either.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've ridden in them a couple of times.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh when we were a couple weeks ago down at PIR, uh, we were one of the first uh that got signed up for the riding drive because we had a meeting at noon we need to be at.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so um they asked us what vehicles we wanted to uh ride or drive, and we saw definitely the Tesla.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: The first the first vehicle, though, uh I hopped in that Rivian R2 and the little their new smaller SUV and got to drive that.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, that was that was fun.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second one I went for was the Tesla semi.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we didn't get to drive it, we got to ride in it.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we had watched it take off before we got in, and they had one of their test drivers there, which is actually was actually one of their service technicians with that has a CDL that they brought in to do the the drives that day.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And when we watched him take off before we got in the truck, I mean he was he like launched that thing and so he out of there and and speaking of like, hey, we seen you take off last time, we expect the same this time.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: He did, he uh it was myself and Michael Clues from the bar one of the bar folks.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: I got in there with him and uh he really took off there and excel uh down the straightaway, kind of where the drag race area is with the IR.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that thing was so smooth, so quiet.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh just I'd like to kind of get the feel for it when it's fully loaded of what it would be like and stuff.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So did it rip your face back and force you to smile with the acceleration?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it forced you to smile.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for sure.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, it was it was controlled, and yeah, I mean, it wasn't anything like like say a launch mode in Aribian or one of these smaller vehicles, but for a vehicle of that size, uh, and that would be to take off like that, it's just just tremendous and stuff.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was just interesting.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're waiting for waiting to see kind of what real world experience.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: experiences of how that that shirk um works especially in a specific one request and stuff and so yeah um what other have you got anybody you're working with on tesla as far as bringing bringing one of those in have you got is it in is it of interest to to your clients yeah I've got two clients who are really hot on the Tesla semis and I mean one of them's been in the queue for quite some time and they're a drage operator and they should have their chargers here in March um and trucks to follow shortly thereafter.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it's the first truck that's like really come out that has like kind of opened people's eyes.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know the range that you just highlighted is like a big factor right people think oh I could see this working in my operation and you just go through some of the like the state incentive program awardee list like in Washington their voucher program and you just see like 10 Teslas 10 Teslas 10 Teslas like folks are lining up for these things.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if if Tesla can produce and deliver vehicles and they can you know actually uh work the way that they're being advertised I think it's going to be a game changer.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and that's that's our thoughts too um what do you think about the challenges out there uh especially as this you know this technology whether it be Tesla or heaterbelt or Kenworth what do you think some of the challenges are going to be because you're really working with the fleet operator um and so what are some of the questions they're asking you or some of the you know things that you guys are having to overcome in order to bring that electric fleet vehicle in.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well I think if we're just assuming that we're using like the right duty cycle the right use case like a day cab tractor that's hauling the appropriate load and you know the Tesla fits well for them I think the problem I don't think money becomes the main problem.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think the main problem becomes the infrastructure especially in the communities that you're out in like rural communities I mean you need three phase you know power 480 volt power and not every community has that.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Even in the urban areas I mean you you come across some properties where folks are trying to install chargers and they don't have that and the utility has to bring it in to their property and it can be very expensive.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: What's nice though is that the Tesla chargers from what I've seen I can't exactly share the specifics but the the actual charging units they seem pretty affordable.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be like the electrical upgrades if you have to make them they're gonna be expensive.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and that would be the charging station basically for that fleet operator to put on their site to allow them to charge uh charge that truck essentially overnight but kind of kind of what we would re kind of comparably to like what a level two charger would be for a passenger vehicle this would be it's still a three phase I can't remember if it's 175 KW um DC fast charger but you're gonna need three phase power quite a bit of it to make that work.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know one of the other um one of the other units that was there at PAR, the city of Cortland has one of those portable battery units on a trailer.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I know when we were in the eFleet's meeting at that event a couple of the operators had expressed an interest um boy we wish something like that was available for us to use either as we're bringing vehicles in so we can, you know, as we're waiting for the infrastructure to be installed by and and the permits to be pulled and the construction and all that to happen, we could at least get started or even sometimes if we get ourselves in a pickle and maybe go a little further than what we should have, we could you know run out there and and uh throw some juice to that truck and get it home and stuff.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know I've thought about that and I've seen even online you know like charging as a service you know it seems interesting but then you go back and look at you know not too long ago and probably still today these fuel trucks are going all over fueling vehicles and equipment you know and that just that just considered normal but this this mobile battery at least today may not be considered but it's essentially going the same thing hauling fuel from a location that has that that energy to where it's needed in the field.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I'm familiar with that unit.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's good redundancy to have if you have the resources um is it the propane powered one that you're thinking of no I think theirs is fully battery powered one that they've got I believe so yeah we've we've been looking at a couple of the mobile battery units uh as part of another program we have under the White East I believe the one that I see at the important is just the basic 120 kilowatt hour battery pack on wheels has three phase power out and then they got it I don't think I don't know how large the charger would be I don't know if that's like a hundred kilowatt 150 kilowatt but enough to get some some energy into those vehicles remotely and uh not enough to obviously completely fuel the Tesla semi but I think on some of the other vehicles that are out there it could definitely uh fuel once or twice.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah yeah I think that's gonna be the way to of to solve the charging problem that I mentioned for communities and locations that don't have three phase power is you get a battery supported charger so that you can basically like trickle charge the battery and then use the battery to charge a a vehicle that needs a DC fast charger.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah but you need big batteries for that well yeah um are you working what other types of vehicles um medium heavy duty vehicles are have you uh work with your clients and brought into yard trucks oh really I love yard trucks yeah I like trucks and I mean mainly I love them because there's so many names for them right people call them goats dogs hostlers terminal tractors but that's like that idle prone duty cycle that I mentioned where you're doing a lot of running just like parked at a trailer waiting to move it and it's a great electrification opportunity especially if you're about to make a decision on whether to buy a new like you know current model year diesel unit that has a DPF and an SCR.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be hating life with those emission treatment systems unless you're running renewable diesel but the electric salts all of that.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us what a yard truck does yeah because I I've seen them what an ideal situation because it's it's essentially never leaving a yard.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: So exactly or it does briefly just to cross a city street to go to another yard that you control so it's yard trucks are typically used at like warehouses, distribution centers to move trailers around a yard instead of getting like a you know a class eight tractor to do it and they've got you know a fifth wheel that can go up and down so that you don't have to you know roll up the trailer supports the legs I don't know exactly what you call them.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: But they're they're they're almost like a small heavy duty truck and they're fantastic and very um very practical to electrify.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah basically just moving trailers from the yard into the dock and then once that trailer gets loaded they're taking and putting them out staging it for the highway truck to then come pick it up and and either out for delivery or or you know wherever the final destination of that trailer is.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I used to work for a um a LTL less than truck club uh freight company based out uh Portland and they had a facility there on Swan Island and I was out in the Dalles and my um one of my early jobs was more local delivery and and I would usually drive a little box truck you know street truck or sometimes the uh those LTL carriers run the little short trailers like a 28 foot cargo trailer on a single axle truck and so um sometimes on it seems like Friday evenings or afternoons I would then take a set of triples into Portland and I'm used to pulling these small trailers and then going down yeah getting getting on my five and heading down into Swan Island there.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: The set of triples was you just look in your mirror and the whole thing is just like a snake whining behind you.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um and then you get down there and basically unhook your truck and they get these yard goats in there and they start breaking these trailers apart and backing them into the dock and stuff and a lot of times there would be what we call hot freight that meant it had a priority on it and needed to be in Portland by a certain time so it could be loaded on another truck that was heading to its destination and stuff.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: But just watching those guys work in those yard trucks they would zoom around and and like you say they back underneath the trailer.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: They wouldn't even get out of the cab it has a lift that basically lifts that fifth wheel in the front part of the uh trailer up and off they go they back it in the dock they sit it down on the ground and they go grab the next one and so yeah and uh it was interesting to see I think the one of the first ones of those I seen was I think it was the orange truck and I was on orange armor.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Orange EV that's it I was on a um uh kind of a webinar with the founder of that company and I was talking about eFarms and he was talking about those those orange EVs man that is a great use uh for uh electrification you know oh yeah it and what's really nice about orange's technology is that they have a very small uh charger cabinet that can go on most that can go at most locations it's like a 22 kilowatt charger which is very low and so you don't need all of those infrastructure upgrades.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah do you happen to know I think uh Orange EV bought the old uh free wire battery integrated charger and it's called the orange juicer now yeah that we were we were pretty hot on um the freewire units uh and for us because it was a battery integrated charger we get put out in these rule locations uh so they didn't need necessarily the DC uh um three phase power to go into it to get the DC charging you is any of your customers work with that unit specifically the orange shoestrick we've explored it with a couple customers where you need like a like an on-route charger the problem is that the customers I'm working with have um they have heavy duty vehicles they're just the batteries are just too big like one is a bus operator the the battery on this bus is 676 kilowatt hours oh wow and the battery on like a an eCascadia you know a class eight you know dim large product is 438 kilowatt hours and so okay we just didn't have enough juice in the in the freewire product or the orange juicer to charge the bus in time okay you happen do you recall kind of isn't it like a hundred and fifty or two hundred kilowatt hour it's it's maybe maybe half or a third of what you'd need for the free or that bus to charge on uh yeah no that's interesting yeah I just um that really seemed like a solution for us in the rural areas to try to get folks a little more charged I think it'd be different too with a passenger vehicle versus these commercial commercial trucks that you guys are working with and stuff um and a good fit for the yard trucks because I don't think the yard trucks have as big of batteries.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah any what else what else what other kinds of vehicles you've been working with you mentioned the urban delivery uh routes you know for like a like a box truck or a class eight truck with a with a a short trailer I I think those are great I mean if you have those you know one you know urban route that you're running or at least like one vehicle that runs those urban routes all that stop and go short mileage um and then just the the I think the sustainability marketing that you can do to your current and to prospective customers I think is really valuable to like really capitalize upon this investment that you've made.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: How big of an impact is is that do you think for the companies?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like obviously there's some companies that are adopting the electric vehicles and kind of run them with it and there's others that are like yeah it's it's just not going to work for me and whether it would or not you know maybe it's really not open to it but is it a is it part of some of these companies strategy and and marketing plan or how important is that to you?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are some that where that is the main driver I think with a lot though that becomes like a like kind of like a co-benefit um and I mean when you have like a Fortune 500 or especially a European customer like a shipping customer they're the ones that are really going to care about that because it goes into their you know investor reports and that kind of stuff.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of these companies that are electrifying right now are like basically piloting it because it's not so much that they're trying to electrify their entire fleet um but as much as they are trying to like build the capacity and like the know-how of like okay this is how we can electrify you know our our fleet and we have that that knowledge to continue electrifying you know the their current fleet other locations other you know contracts that they serve and I think for the fleets that have actually trialed this right now they've gained know-how that may not be as easy to gain um for for others or at least it's been you know heavily subsidized by by funding opportunities that some folks today have been savvy enough to leverage yeah yeah I know even uh for us under the um under rpw energy we've got three vouchers through the board and DEQ uh zero funding program and so two of them are for yeah two of them are for uh medium duty uh class three and uh the third one is actually for class eight our plan is this next summer to bring in a Tesla semi and we're still working through all the details to hopefully make that happen but um it's it's a game changer yeah the class three like the the the vans or those Chevy silver autos those are fantastic yeah and I uh I think you know it seems to me there's the lighter duty vehicles there's more of them a fail it seems like I'm gonna say the class two class two B which would be kind of your standard pickup truck or some of these smaller uh sprinter vans or the you know the Ford delivery vans of the Caribbean vans and stuff like that.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it just seems like there's not really the incentives in that in that grouping and you really got to get into more of the um class three or above which 10,000 pound gross vehicle weight rating or above in order to get into some of those incentives.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it seems to me that those heavier duty vehicles are are a lot more expensive to get into it's a lot more of a commitment.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: The charging infrastructure can be more challenging and uh I I my own personal opinion it when I get a chance to talk to folks who are involved with these programs I'm like I really think we need to go back and look at these small delivery vans, the pickup trucks and those things for commercial use.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: And to me it allows people to get in and get involved with electrification uh before they have to commit to you know with uh a very expensive class 8 truck whether that be a Peter Velvet or a Kenworth or a Freightliner or a Tesla they're all they all have an electric uh model that um is available on the market now.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's your thoughts on that?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I'd call that the missing middle.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean a lot of these yeah a lot of these traditional programs that require like a scrap and replace right component to be eligible for funding they're scrapping diesel and what you're describing isn't a diesel is not as popular as the baseline or the the vehicles are just not heavy enough to qualify.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so these like point of sale rebate and voucher programs, they're they're pretty new, relatively new.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that there is a learning process here to include those like class 2B and class three because I think when some of those came out those vehicles were eligible but there was like almost way too much interest and maybe a little too much money offered per vehicle so the money was exhausted very quickly.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so now on the uh Oregon DT Zero fleet program that class three which would be your 10,000 pounds I don't remember what went up to but uh basically included some of the uh Chevy Silverado pickups and it also included like the uh Chevy bright drop fans uh that are heavier duty model and which are fantastic as well yeah that uh that segment where that class was um allocated you know in a very short amount of time and I know we we work with some of the recipients that purchased uh Chevy Braddrop fans and they just bought them and uh and it's just an it's an odd thing you know out there the bread drop van the F-150 it's like some of these um some of these vehicles that got on the market I haven't ran across to anybody that doesn't like the Chevy Brad Drop van and and but yet they just continued making that vehicle and uh even for the recipients of Zero Fleet program that we're working with we're kind of helping do a total cost of ownership uh they switched and got a a Chevy bread drop van and then they got one of the Zuzu uh box trucks to replace a couple of older diesel and gas uh delivery cast and this the bread drop van specifically they just absolutely love that vehicle but yet uh Chevy discontinued producing it so um yeah just interesting it was a mismatch I think like I think they produced all these they produced weights I mean they produced a lot I saw pictures of you know hundreds of them sitting on lots um and then it was almost like the funding programs lagged a little bit and the consumer demand lagged a little bit and now you have them ceasing production but you they're incredibly popular and just also to like give the the the the a little more background on like what happened with the Bright Drop and the incentives I mean the incentive was appropriately priced for the Bright Drop because I think it was like$50,000 for a class three and the bright drop was I think MSRP was around a hundred thousand dollars.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: But then of course they stopped producing them and you could get them for a significant discount because dealers are like we don't want to have these anchors right and so then there is a little bit of you know folks are getting screaming deals on bright drops and they're getting a a voucher and so of course you know the program ran out of funding and they're also trying to fund a bunch of other vehicle types.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah I know um even today looking on uh the different auto dealer whether it be auto trader or Facebook marketplace you can still find those bread drop fans a lot of them have low miles or essentially new and it's it's anywhere from thirty thousand dollars forty thousand dollars and uh I know we've had some folks come to us asking and I I've suggested like go go pick one of these up they they appear to be a great vehicle and you can get into it for you know a reasonable price for less than you can go buy a a diesel or gasoline delivery van and you're gonna get the efficiency from the electric side of it.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the reasons why the bright drop and the Chevy Silverado were so popular are still so popular is because they actually have really good range.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think the Chevy Silverado has something like four or five hundred miles of range and the bright drop's like 300 I mean and at those prices I'm like why don't I just go start a last mile delivery fleet with a bunch of bright drops it'd be a fantastic business model.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and that's that's what I'm wondering too I just want to talk to you a little bit on the economics and I don't know as you're I know you perform some economic studies uh that you can you know that you can go through with folks but is that a is you're talking to your clients and such are they what's their what's their reason why they want to move forward and how much is the economics a piece of the a piece of the uh the answer for them?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big driver I think trialing the the technology and figuring out how it can work in in operation is a huge driver and the economics are are also a large portion of that um I think the cost per mile for these light duty vehicles compared to gasoline or diesel it's it's quite low.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean those light duty vehicles are uh EVs are pretty fuel efficient so to speak um with the heavy duties you're still getting some serious fuel savings uh but I think the lying share of your savings are going to come from like the maintenance.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah that's another another thing that um and the maintenance is different.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know I uh our our mutual friend Steve Goodman uh he uh he essentially introduced me to the Tesla and uh after I don't know two weeks of me going on a trip with Steve and his Tesla I I bought a used Tesla there at a plat auto there in Portland and um oh yeah just the the cost to drive that car compared to the diesel you know I had a RAM uh 2500 and uh I mean it's like you know two three cents a mile to drive that car versus um you know, 35, 40 cents a mile at that time to drive that RAM pickup.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and he would be like, why are you driving a pickup to your daughter's track meet?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I like, well, it's why I drive as well.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, we gotta, we gotta fix this.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um it's a huge cost difference, you know, and that we we've seen the same thing.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um we as part of our eFarms program, and that's uh you know kind of a partnership to do some nonprofits with that program.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: Got one of the F-150s and then um once I uh through RPW bought the Chevy Silverado really switched and started driving that truck for most of our day to day you kind of forget what fuel costs and we had a we had to take some equipment up to trying to think where we were going.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: I had to go clear up like Burlington, Washington from the Dalles area.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I took the diesel pickup and I went down and fueled it up and it cost me$285 of fuel that pickup.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I just like holy smokes and uh I I went and made that trip and I had to grab fuel one more time uh up and back because I took our big cargo trailer.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now I I was trying to haul more than I could have with the Silverado but I couldn't wait to get back and get back in the electric Silverado and fuel it up for you know 12 bucks or 15 bucks here at home versus$285 in that diesel pickup.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we've used this Chevy Silverado to tow quite a bit also and it tows great it's got lots of power it just uh yeah you have to really plan out your charging when you're on a trip.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you know those are some of the things that your fleet operators are looking at too they're looking at their I'm gonna say local routes but if it's if it's a route that requires a distance more than what the the vehicle has capacity of, you know, I'm sure that that's kind of a challenge too and um with the charging of that while while in route.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: All of the projects I've worked with to date, right?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: And keep in mind that this is like the early days of heavy duty electrification still have been these return to base models, overnight depot charging.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working on a pilot project with one client that's bus operator.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: They run the ODOT point bus between Portland and Eugene and we're trying to install on route charging at the northern and southern terminuses of that route for some opportunity charging.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we've been at this for like three or four years like trying to get on route charging at locations that you don't own I mean it's you it requires a like a huge project and a lot of stakeholders to get uh solved at least on like the heavy duty side like I mean when you get to the light duty side of things there's light duty chargers everywhere these days but they're not designed for charging a truck right there's no pull through to pull through space.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah what are you seeing on the medium and heavy duty vehicles I know uh for example the Tesla semi they talk a lot about they're made a lot uh chargers and it's a it's a completely different high powered charger but on the like this uh bus you're talking about and these other the bright drop fans what type of chargers would you be installing like when you're talking about the point of destination and stuff the bus charger is a little unique because that battery is so massive um but we're not installing megawatt chargers I don't think megawatt chargers are going to be what many fleets need for this overnight depot charging model.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can get by with 75 kilowatts on your charger like for this bus.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we install um dual port 180 kilowatt chargers so each plug charges one bus.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you got two buses charging at once that's about uh 90 kilowatts per plug it's perfect for overnight charging when you get into like the like the light duty space like a Chevy Bright shop I mean you can get by with a level two charger like a fast uh like an 80 amp 19.2 kilowatt charger you could charge overnight no problem yeah so would you that seems to be a challenge a lot of times the charging or a big question would you I'm gonna say with the medium duty fleets I think it might be easier to charge than what most folks think.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Would you agree with that?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely okay and then you can charge on a level two for a lot of the medium duty trucks.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry to interrupt you no no I want to hear from you but on the once you what at what point do you think that it starts becoming more difficult?
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've mentioned this bus with the 600 kilowatt hour battery pack and I know the Tesla is I don't know exactly what the battery pack size but they're probably that that large or larger so what I'm gonna look up the Tesla semi battery.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah uh Google says a 822 kilowatt hour battery on the long range that's a massive battery that's two that's two e cascadia's worth and then the standard range is 548 this is Google and Reddit so maybe we should take this with a grain of salt.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah but it's probably relatively close anyways yeah to where it's at but you you're gonna need a big charger for that for those I mean you're probably talking at least the 90 kilowatt charger um that I mentioned uh or sorry the 180 dual port charger for like a a medium duty like a say like a Ryzon or an Izuzu like class four five box truck I think their battery packs around 200 kilowatts or less kilowatt hours and so you can get by with like a level two.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's when you get above that and the especially if you need to like come back to base and charge up in between shifts or something to complete the whole route during the day that you need to get into the DC fast charging space.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I know like the uh I kind of compare that to what I know more so with the the pickups and the the Ford Lightning had I think a hundred and right around 130 kilowatt hour battery no problem at all to charge that overnight um the Chevy Silverado that we bought has the extended battery which is 170 kilowatt and then the Max pack has like a 200 kilowatt and that's the one it'll do uh well north of 400 miles of range.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: Wow yeah and I live in a like a 100 year old farmhouse and we charge those vehicles no problem overnight with level two charging.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I know I've had recent conversations with uh actually a couple of the cities that are looking at bringing EDs in and this seems to be something that they're really concerned about is well how am I going to charge this?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then earlier this week I was talking to someone else and they were mentioned oh a friend of ours bought a Tesla and they spent$8,000 to put a charger in their house and I'm like I I don't know why and so I don't know you know I I think there's some work to do maybe some education out there for like here's here's the basics of what you need but if you want to get into maybe some of the integrated vehicle to home options and those types of things yes it would cost you more to charge.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: So but yeah I level two charging and that's a lot of times what my answer is on charging you know like we could solve a lot of this uh just more level two charging in the right locations you know the schools the doctor's office the grocery store and that and it's it's gotten a lot better um for sure as far as the number of chargers that are out there and I've seen even recently the Oregon just released the uh next round of NEVI funding and kind of outlined some corridors there and so we're looking at that too to help but I mean I think a lot more of the DC fast charging which um you know essentially we we're using DC fast charging when we're on trips you know but most of the local stuff we're just charging here at the at the headquarters or at the house.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you talk to a lot of these cities I mean level two is going to be just fine for them.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean light duty medium duty um they may want the DC fast charging the level three for like the flexibility to be able to quickly charge for whatever reason.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the way I would approach that with what the funding opportunity you just mentioned is you get some of these folks together to apply for you know a DC fast charging station in their community so that they have that capacity available and then you install the level two for your it's for 80% 90% of your routine charging needs.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah well let's yeah thanks what what types of support can you give folks out there you know as far as with your company and stuff what what are some of the types of things you could be helping folks with you mentioned helping track down some of these funding do you actually help with the grant writing and and that also or okay yeah I I write uh and submit turnkey grant applications and then that's kind of where my service starts and then if you need help with actually implementing the project I'm essentially like you know a rental EV expert so you don't have to become one or uh you know train someone up in your staff to be that um and then obviously managing carbon credits that you can generate it's like a little cash back incentive for uh owning and operating an EV charger in Oregon Washington and California um where I don't charge is just to ask me questions.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know like I left the nonprofit but the nonprofit never really left me.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and so if folks are interested we'll we'll put your contact information in uh in the um description of this and everything but they could just reach out to you and you're based right in the Portland area and oh yeah and uh would you I would say I'm kind of guessing here a little bit prior to Oregon Washington programs or things you're working on the day to day is that the main geographic region or are you doing stuff throughout the nation or though that's definitely the focus uh a good amount of work still in California.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know if anyone's has something in Southern California they have gobs of money I'd love to help them win.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just got asked my first Idaho question yesterday.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah I did a little bit of research there.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I I mean I've done work across the country like I know exactly where to look for the funding.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: So no geography is out of bounds in that sense.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what what do you think the future holds?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know that there's you know with the federal kind of the swing of the federal programs and stuff um a lot of the incentives went away for the tax credits and those types of things and so we're kind of kind of in a a transition period I guess you would say right now but we still we're seeing people still move forward with um the pasture vehicles and even the medium and heavy duty uh fleet vehicles and so what what's your crystal ball for the next say three to five years?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think is gonna kind of how's how's this gonna roll out are people gonna continue to adopt the electric I think so I think it's almost like the pendulum has swung the other way and it's slowly swinging back.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think folks have had a little bit more breathing room and less pressure to kind of investigate this on their own in by their own means.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that now the economics of driving electric are starting to come back into focus and as the primary driver of why folks want to do this.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean especially with like a foreign war driving up the cost of oil the economics look really good right now.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and so and I do think that Tesla will produce and deliver and I think that there's going to be a lot of continued interest from that and eventually the traditional automakers are going to start coming out with EV options or plug-in hybrid options again that folks can buy.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I I agree with you completely I think one of the things that was said uh that I heard in the last week was a lot of the EVs the pasture vehicles the trucks and stuff are more to a more of a higher uh higher end or more extensive yeah vehicle and I think you know I'm sure you're watching like for the Slate truck and for the Ford Fathom truck to come out the you know MSRP in the you know 20 mid 20 to$30,000 range and I think that will make a big difference too it'll allow a you know someone that can't afford to go buy an eighty thousand dollar electric truck you know to to get in and then and then start seeing some of the benefits of the economics of it.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is a big piece of it is that you you're right that they tried the traditional OEMs try to electrify more of the high-end stuff you know SUVs pickup trucks that really shouldn't be electrified with the state of the technology that they were dealing with.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second piece there is that they eventually came out with uh not at the beginning but at the eventually they came out with their own dedicated Eeve platform you know from the ground up designed as an EV.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the bright drop and the silver auto seem like that's you know classic example of like design from the ground up as an EV and they turned out to be really good.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: Completely agree with that yeah it's gonna be interesting and I know I know for me I mean it's all a lot of it's economics and I drive so many miles every year.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah you do uh and so uh the cost difference you know to drive you know I I figure the Tesla it costs like I said two three cents a mile and that shavy silverado cost us four to five cents a mile and it's the cheapest thing I can drive you know it it works well for us and that's all tell some of our local folks and and every once in a while RAS and they'll ask me some of the diesel price is fuel expensive that gets them gets them riled up a little bit but I I think that uh one of the big things there I'm sure with your fleet operators is that spike in fuel cost uh liquid fuels versus electric you know if there's an increase it's usually on an annual basis and it's uh you know electric rates yes they have increased uh especially in the last five years but nothing like these swings that we're seeing in the diesel cost uh and regular fuel costs and stuff and that really makes an impact on the budgets and stuff so yeah I mean the fuel electric electricity is regulated it's not exportable and it's just immune in many ways uh I wouldn't say immune nothing's immune but it's fairly well resilient um in the face of like fluctuating fuel prices yeah and it and I tell folks too a lot of times it's actually easier to transport electricity than fuel but we get kind of immune to these fuel trucks running up and down the road but yet these wires whether overhead or underground um bring us fuel right to our house and so uh yeah well what else is there anything else that we you want to make sure you mention that we didn't touch on so far I just think that it's now like it's a good time to kind of reinvestigate electrification I think that there's there's a lot of opportunity ahead and now is the best time to at least like test it out and see how it can work and build that know-how and I I'm very excited for the next several years because I think we're gonna see more platforms come out I think we're gonna see costs come down you know I hate to say it but the threat of the Chinese EVs you know these cheap Chinese EVs it's I think it's gonna be a good pressure to drive those costs down.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah yeah I agree completely in everything.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: So well let's uh let's wrap it up at that Michael I hope this is the first of conversation we're having on here I've I've learned a lot from you today and I always enjoy chatting with you and uh and kind of getting knowledge from you and and hearing about some of these projects you're working with and everything.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for joining us on the podcast here today and and uh taking the time to hop on with us and so we'll look forward to that next conversation with you.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for having me.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed chatting with you.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah all right well we'll we'll conclude this episode with that and so thanks for listening to our Rule E podcast