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Reconciliation between Races through Christ · Centrally Speaking

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Centrally speaking, is the Central Schroenfelder Church's podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: It speaks about issues that would be of interest to our society.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, it addresses how a Christian worldview intersects with Western secular culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: In the spirit of the church's founder, we take the perspective of the middle way, which is in agreement with the historic Christian Church.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Drake Williams, Minister of Mission and Theology at the Church.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Our website is www.cscfamily.org.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Today we are concluding a two-part series on racism, but then reconciliation in Christ.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: My three guests today are Reverend Keith Williams from Nazarene Baptist Church on Germantown Avenue in Nicetown, Philadelphia.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Reverend Alfred Duncan from the Schweinfelder Missionary Church that meets on Tulmahacken Street in Germantown, Philadelphia.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: And Reverend Dr.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: David McKinley from Central Schwangfelder Church.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Let me introduce each one to you.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Reverend Keith Williams has been pastor for over 36 years at Nazarene Baptist Church.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: He holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from the Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and a Master of Divinity degree from Palmer Theological Seminary.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Reverend Williams has served at the Mount Amala Baptist Church of Glassboro, New Jersey, and was able to serve as an adjunct chaplain and Bible expositor for the Philadelphia Eagles, Philadelphia Phillies, and 76ers.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: In 2007, he was elected to be president of all the 42 state convention presidents of the Southern Baptist Convention.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: In 2015 and 16, he was elected and served as president of the National African American Fellowship, once again, of the Southern Baptist Convention.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: His involvement in the field of racism and reconciliation is well known.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: He was a contributor to the book Removing the Stain of Racism from the Southern Baptist Convention, published in 2017 by Broadman and Holman.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: He is married to Constance, and they have three children and two grandchildren.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: His family, along with Keith, as well as his mother and grandmother, were in the Emmy nominated film Unchained, Healing from a Generational Trauma.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Reverend Alfred Duncan is also a graduate from Eastern University and Palmer Theological Seminary, where he achieved a Bachelor of Arts degree and a Master of Divinity degree.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: He has led the Schwenkfelder Missionary Church since about 2016.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Before this, he was actively involved in the first Schwenckfelder Church, now called First Worship Center, that meets on the 30th in Cumberland in the Strawberry Mansion section of the city.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: He and his wife Phyllis are involved in regular outreach at the Happy Hollow Recreation Center in Germantown, where they're constantly uh cooking food and uh delivering um clothing uh to those who are in need.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Alfred is also the chair of the Schweinfelder Ministerium.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm joined by uh my good friend and colleague, Reverend Dr.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: David McKinley, who is senior minister here at Central Schweinfelder Church.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Gentlemen, welcome to the show.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Good to be here.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you for having us.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Glad to have you.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: The purpose of this podcast is to dialogue one another about uh racism, but specifically about reconciliation.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: In the previous one, we spoke about uh the problem of racism, how pervasive it is, uh, some of your personal stories uh about it, and and then uh how we might understand each other better.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this one, this podcast, we wish to speak more about reconciliation.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, reconciliation is the restoration of relationships, of friendly relationships, the activity of making one view compatible with another.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's the church that has uh a message like this, and I think we need to speak about this uh one uh with another.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: It might seem to be an insurmountable task with all of the things that we've seen in the news lately, but the church has been involved with reconciliation uh for years, and you all have been involved with it uh in your time, in your ministry.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: I wondered if each of you, all three of you, would speak um about someone within the church who has been an example of reconciliation.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Why would you call that person a reconciler and why did you choose them?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh as I mentioned in the last podcast, um I grew up in a uh small community in Southwest Missouri, and so it wasn't until uh my college years at Southwest Baptist University, a Southern Baptist school, that uh I had a um an African-American roommate and James, who who lives in Memphis today, he's a social worker and a and a wonderful Christian.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um he did not hesitate to love uh those of us that had a different uh skin color.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he uh was not afraid to socialize with us, to get together with us, to pray with us and for us.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh James Giles Fields IV was I think uh a great uh uniter.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: When I came to Central, um, Reverend Ed Winslow, um when Ed and Charlotte would call this church their church, and uh he would say many times, when I retire, Central's gonna be my church.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh over the years uh we have done a lot of things with the Schweinckfelder Missionary Church, and of course uh Alfred Duncan is carrying that torch today as Reverend Ed has passed away a few years ago, but um I saw Ed Winslow to be a great uniter.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Another example is a young man by the name of Byron Battle, and uh Byron is uh a young African American man in our area, and he would head up the National Day of Prayer on the campus of the Montgomery County Courthouse, and he and his wife would you know organize the speakers, those who would pray for different areas, and Byron uh would always uh he he was good about inviting uh people from a broad range, and then we would participate, great spirit.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: He would come to an event or two here just to show his support.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: I remember one year uh he he sent a thank you note with a gift card.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um did not expect that at all, but he he just uh opened himself and um you couldn't help but to love him.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there have been several, but but those are the ones that came to my mind of those that uh seemed to cultivate reconciliation, even when you might say, well, there there wasn't the need for these individuals to reconcile, but they represented reconciliation in in the community here or in other settings.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna say an individual.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: I I went to Palmer, and I'm gonna say Palmer Theological Seminary.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: Normally I don't lift up the seminary like that, but its emphasis on diversity is phenomenal.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: One of the first projects that I had when I was when I was there, the professor looked at everyone in the classroom.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: We had to give detailed information about our background, our church, issue, church Baptist, um, evangelical, so forth and so on.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: And what they did was they put groups of people together that were as different as they could possibly make those groups.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: My first group there, I've told them I was representing evangelical church, because Central Call is self-evangelical, so so we went off of that.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: We had evangelical, we had a Baptist, we had a feminist, we made we made a distinction between the feminist and women's movement.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: Feminists supported the lesbian gay thing, womenists were about women's rights in there, and we also had a seven-day eventist in that group.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: And what they did was they gave us an assignment and they said that our concern is not about whether you can do this assignment.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: We know all of you all can do this assignment.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: The thing is, can you do it together?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: And we had some major differences, some major doctrinal beliefs, you know, we were just challenges with one another.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: But the idea was not to just get that assignment done, but for us to really begin to come together and work together as members of the body of Christ or professed members of the members of the body of Christ.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I see that type of thing, it leads to what people working together, but it also leads to what work um working out areas of reconciliation.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: I had to I had to be honest.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, some of the theological views I was totally opposed to.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I went in in Palmer's theological seminary saying, I didn't come here to learn the Bible.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of things about the Bible I already know, but I came here because I came here.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: There's some positions I'm gonna take and I'm gonna stand on.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm coming to them in the door, I'm going out the door with them, you know.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think you know the Bible.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: You better believe, right?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: That there don't, yeah.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't know the Bible, don't go to Palmer.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: I will tell you that.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, but it's the idea of reconciliation and people coming together and working together in a loving way.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: It uh it was there.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would just lift that up, and not just to live up the university, but the I um the idea of that.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think we're gonna have reconciliation um on the matters of racism.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think we're gonna do it, but I think we need a wide variety of people involved in it coming together and really have something that all of us hold dear and see what we can work in um, how how we can accomplish, you know, things like that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: But that's who I I would lift up right now.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_06: Historically, I've seen a few people that really um tried to reconcile people.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_06: Dr.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_06: Martin Luther King, when he talked about uh wanted and urged us to judge people but not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_06: Because reputation is what you say about me, character is what I am.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_06: And then uh John Perkins is a guy that comes to my mind.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_06: He's in Mendenhall, Mississippi, has a great ministry uh reconciling people, and and Dr.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_06: Tony Evans, my good friend in Dallas, Texas.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_06: Um there are some a few brothers of the lightest hue that I've been in relationship with and partnered with to move forward uh some uh some uh biblical change and race relationships.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_06: Uh the former president and executive director of Southern Baptist Convention, Dr.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_06: Frank Page, um and are working together, stood up on some issues that took courage, as well as the present president, Dr.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_06: Ronnie Floyd, has meetings with National Baptist President uh and uh in trying to bring some uh relationships and understanding together.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_06: There are some works that are going on, some people that are really concerned about us as kingdom citizens, that we represent, that we're authentic ambassadors of the Almighty to bring together unity in the body of Christ.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's been a lot of uh uh talk so far in the news these past several weeks of the the great distance that there's uh that still has to be gone in reconciliation.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious though, what you all would say about the progress that we've made in reconciliation.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: As it seems that we've made some, maybe not enough, but we've made some.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um how do you see it?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see uh that we've made some progress over the last um um you know uh several decades uh through some of these reconcilers that you have talked about and some of the uh movements uh within uh uh American life?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: I I think I think we've made I think we've made progress.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, especially if you look at the history of the racial problems um in in in this country.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean the basic problem was you you had to have black church and white churches, you know, because preaching and teaching from the same Bible, but you could not even, you know, worship or fellowship together.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: And we become a long, long, long, long, long, long ways um since that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: But in terms of making progress and strides like that, though, I think that there's a long way to go also too, and I say this because the Brotherhood mission, I was on staff there for a while, um, in Fishtown.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: Wherever I go, I try to visit churches from uh from time from time to time.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: And even though some progress has has been been made, the church still is too the church still is too segregated.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: It really is.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: And some challenges when strangers of uh a different race go into a church, you can sometimes you you feel the change in the atmosphere.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you're not being judgmental, you see the differences and the looks that people will have on, you know, have have on their face and things like that.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so we have we have a long way to go, but yes, we've we've made some we've made some progress, but I I I think reconciliation within the body of Christ.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: I really do think that a lot more of this going to take place when what our churches look like really really change.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: I I I seriously believe that.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I know that and you would welcome, I think, any race of people here, we would welcome any, but people had to make more of an effort.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: You have to make conscious efforts right now to really go out and work and fellowship with uh with one another and begin to make the church look in action and function like the body of Christ, Christ should.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: And we've made some stride, some progress in those areas, but not near not nearly enough.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there there is no excuse that wait for the missionary church.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: We've had visitors to come in and stop and whatever.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's there's no excuse that we haven't had one Caucasian visitor yet.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: No one.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they're all around in the whole block here, you know, everywhere.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no one is that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: But we we uh we we need that.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: And there's no excuse that more people don't come out to Central either.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: People who exposed to the radio ministry or whatever.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's a good ministry.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, why not?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you drive to the mall, go shop, and come on Pass force service sometime.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, something like that.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Any thoughts about the progress that's been made?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I think there have been some um with civil rights movements and uh and first African American president, and uh even in Southern Baptist Convention had first African American president, but I still feel we still have a long way to go.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_06: There's a lot of healing that needs to be done and intentional work that needs to be done.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_06: Like I said in the first broadcast, we have a heart problem.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_06: We need divine surgery on the heart, and um only God can change hearts, and that comes through persistent, passionate prayer and uh planning and process and practice that um we might be able to come together as uh the people of God to uh be what God has called us to be.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_06: And it's not gonna be easy, it's gonna be some sacrifice.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_06: My my life verse is John 15, 13.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_06: Greater love has no man than miss, then a man lay down his life for his friends.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_06: And to practice biblical Christianity is gonna cost us something.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_06: It cost him something.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_06: And uh so uh uh our hope is Jesus and fleshing out the biblical principles and precepts that our faith without works don't end up being worthless in vain.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_06: You know, responding to not so much a social gospel uh but a gospel with its social implications.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_06: You know, uh Galatians 6 2 uh wean uh you know talks about uh uh bearing one another's burdens.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_06: There's some loads in this life that are too heavy for us to carry.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_06: That we might uh fulfill the law of Christ.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_06: What's the law of Christ?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_06: We love one another.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_06: They will know we are Christians by our not what what we say, but what we do.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_06: And that that that's calling sin, sin wherever we go, and and and not just pointing out the problem, but be willing to be a part of the solution.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_06: I have no right to complain about the problem if I'm not willing to be a part of the solution.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have anything you want to add about the progress that's been made from the way you see it?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's just an observation, you know, being a uh Caucasian male, it's it's easy to say, well, of course there's been progress, as Keith mentioned, you know, uh um civil rights movement, first African American president, Barack Obama, um uh you know, Condoleezza Rice, uh Secretary of State, you know, all all these things.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's great.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not until listening to another brother what they've experienced after a lunch and and getting pulled over and being quite that then then I realize, whoa, my my my equilibrium needs to be recalibrated.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh and I think if if there's anything that can come from uh the death of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and uh Ahmad Aubrey is for white people to finally become familiar about the personal experiences of of of black males um that that that go under the radar for someone like me.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: That that then that and so hey uh there's a lot going on that's uh heartbreaking and heart-wrenching and and uh but if the end product is more awareness for every person out there than then it's worth it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and there's real change, I would like to think real change on the doorstep.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Real change from understanding each other.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: But then I know each of you feel very uh strongly about uh real change that comes from the scripture, and I thought maybe uh you might share a text or two that you think would be particularly apropos for reconciliation.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_06: Well, for me, um 2 Corinthians 5 17, you know, I'm a new creature, new creation, old things passed away, all things become new.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_06: Uh, as a new creature in Christ, I want to operate on uh according to the divine imperatives.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_06: And it says um all things are God, he's reconciled to we've been reconciled to him, brought in right relationship with God.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_06: Really, in essence, um I'm still I'm a saint, but I still got some sinner problems.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_06: That's Romans chapter 7.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_06: But I don't even have the capacity to be right with you if I'm not right with him.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_06: To give you an indicator that I'm not right with him is I'm not right with you.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_06: And and coming to Christ, bringing him in, helps me to see you as he sees you.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_06: As a man that's been made in the image of God, got the Imagio Deo stamped on him in the Latin, has the image bearer of the triunity of God stamped on your person.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_06: Uh and and now having the Holy Spirit in my life to to help me to take up, you know, the ambassadorship, you know, our calling is now to help men be reconciled to God.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_06: You know, that's that's that's the mandate to help men be reconciled with God.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_06: And the greatest uh witness is uh uh Dawson Trotman, founder of the Navigators, once said, Yes, the man, why don't you believe in my Redeemer?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_06: He said, You show me your redeemed life, and I'll believe in your Redeemer.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_06: Otherwise, it's the potcorn, the kettle black, or one drunk tell another drunk, y'all get sober.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_06: Or as James Brown used to say back in my BC days before Christ, you're talking loud but saying nothing.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_06: And this is a seeing generation.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_06: We're living epistles read among men.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_06: And and in order for people to believe that they need to see, the matter of fact, let me say this and on this.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_06: Matthew 5, 16, let your light so shine before men that men might see our good works.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_06: And it advertises God, it glorifies our Father which's in heaven.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_06: In other words, the Bible, a godly life is convincing testimony that the Bible works.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_06: And my grandmom used to say, I'd rather see a sermon any day than hear one.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_06: And I think that's that's the key, that reconciliation.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_06: This is what we're called to help men get right with God.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_06: Lord, is there anything in my life that's hindering you from using me uh as a vessel under honor fit for the master's use?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_06: 1 Timothy 2.21.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_06: It's an emptying of self.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_06: Philippians 2.4.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_06: Preferring others over ourselves.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_06: And um and when we come together as a body, uh, I call it relational incarnation, that you learn to feel what I feel, and I learn to feel what you feel, that that nourishes empathy and compassion.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_06: Jesus looked down at the multitudes, Matthew chapter 9, 35 to 38, and he was moved with compassion.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_06: Sheep were scattered abroad.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_06: It's like his boughs were gushed out because they were sheep without a shepherd.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_06: And the world looks at us.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_06: I know you don't have nothing to say to us.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_06: And um you don't you're afraid to speak truth to power because you're more concerned.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_06: With prestige and popularity and position and preeminence and prosperity rather than the principles and precepts of the Prince of Peace.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Two things.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: I heard you mention Voody Bachman, who I really admire.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: He preached the sermon from Ephesians chapter two.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to go into all of it.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: We made it very clear that the racial distinctions are pretty much a human construct.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: And the major distinction that God made, that he made a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Gentiles and how everybody basically needed to become back to the Lord.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: I firmly believe that we need to come back to the Lord, that all people need to be reconciled back to Christ before we're going to have reconciliation with one another.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: But as far as reconciliation is coming about, I still think that we have to be very careful and we have to be well prepared in our reactions to the truth.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: Another place in the Bible, Paul said, Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: And the part of being reconciled with one another is to be honest.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: But a lot of times in the process of trying to be honest and be reconciled with one another, people have an aversion to the truth.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: If you're not very careful about it, it can, you know, it can separate it can separate you again.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: Again, we need to continue to speak the truth of the gospel to one another.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I can't talk I can't talk about being reconciled to Pastor Dave if at some point in time Pastor Dave may actually agree with me.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: And he might say, you know what, I love you, bro.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you just as wrong as you can be.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: And if I allow him to if and and if I have a problem with that truth that he preaches to me or my congregation, or you know, I mean, you're a Caucasian minister, you know.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: We're talking about being being reconciled, because if God's going to be in the midst of reconciliation, listen, it's not gonna make any difference to to God whether the message that the African American community needs to hear, whether it comes from me, it might just come from you.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I just can't get upset, you know, with him.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and let that be a barrier.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: If, you know, if you teach the teach the truth to me personally or to my community community or so forth and so on.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: So again, I see reconciliation taking taking place.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to continue to take place, but again, only as we are willing to accept and receive the truth of the gospel, doesn't matter who it comes from.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: And also, it does not matter who it needs to be said to.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: You with me?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: It it were it works both ways.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so those are my ideas and my concepts.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, because you know, all have sin, not y'all, all have sinned.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_06: Everybody come short of the glory of God.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_06: Amen.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_06: All of us uh got some skeletons a closet, and some of them still got some meat on the bone.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_04: That's right, sure.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_06: Salvation is the miracle of the moment, but the making of a saint takes a lifetime.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_06: We grow in grace together.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: Amen.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_06: And that's what Proverbs 27, 17 talks about.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_06: Good uh iron sharpens iron.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_06: Good biblical theological discussion with practical application, profit as much.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_04: Amen.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_06: That's what you know, that's what we we have to be about.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_06: Uh iron sharpening and iron, but you gotta be iron to sharpen iron.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_06: And it gotta be about uh exalting the Savior, edifying the saints, and evangelizing the sinners.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_06: That's what we that's all we're here for.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_06: And if it's not about him, you know, all we're here, we're God's advertisement agency.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_06: We're to say we're to put him on display.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_06: That's what the glory is.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_06: Put him on display.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_06: You know, be an ocular demonstration and a pictoriation of incarnational truth tabernacling on two feet in our own unique personality.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_06: That's the beauty of the body of Christ.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_06: You know, none of us are the same.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_06: We're we're we got different giftings and talents, and we're to complement one another, not compete with one another.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_06: And when the world sees, the church just is divided among ethnicities, they're divided.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_06: Over positions and popularity, really?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm one heartbeat from standing in front of Jesus, and I'm gonna hate on you over a position?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_06: That's crazy.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_06: And if I don't, if he doesn't authorize it, I don't get my next breath.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_06: Or my next clear thought.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_06: My grandmom used to say, I'm one thought from crazy.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_06: Some of the I talk to everyone someday.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_06: Some of them said, No, you have a thought.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_05: I'm one thought.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_05: You know, and and I have members that have all some members that it breaks my heart.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_05: I don't have a if he doesn't authorize it, I don't get my next breath.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Roman Acts 17, 28.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_05: No, my next clear thought.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, we act like we're gonna live forever.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_05: And we are.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_06: The question is where are you gonna live?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_06: And they both begin with age.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_06: Heaven or hell.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: And the more the more we we we reconcile with one another in the right way, also, too.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's just the biblical principle, and all of us know the story of where um talk about where where Peter refused to sit down and eat, you know, with the Gentiles to check some pressure, right?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then Paul comes along and Paul has to basically right, uh, basic uh basically check him.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think that when we make reconciliation, we are making reconciliation also too.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes there's going to be problems or situations that comes up where, you know, we may change our attitudes or change our behaviors.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: We something that we were doing right, we back away from something that, you know, we could be doing, you know, we um we're not doing.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: And when somebody comes in, somebody has to be bold enough to come in and check us.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so while we while we're working toward reconciliation, it's just my my viewpoint that it's gonna have to be maintained.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody's gonna have to be honest, honest enough to say that okay, well, you all came together, you were doing real good, but now because of such and such a thing or whatever, though, you're leaning back towards your the pressures of your your own group or you you're leaning back towards the old order, and we need we need uh we need to get this, we need to get this back together.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so I hope that we would uh you know we do those things the right and that we can we continue to do those.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_06: But I think in the body uh without repentance and uh fruits of repentance, uh calling a nation to repentance, uh sinner and saint alike, um with brokenness and humility and you know passionate prayer, all of these are ingredients for a revival in the church and a spiritual awakening in the land, and it's practical applications with calling out sin.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_06: And it's gonna take humbling ourselves to the holy that we can heal the hurts of the human.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_06: We're a broken, broken world.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_06: And uh if anybody ought to be doing it, it ought to be us.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_06: Really?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_06: That's why that's the young people feel like the church is so irrelevant.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_06: They don't address, we don't address what's going on.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_06: And uh, you know, sometimes our creature comforts get in the way, and we don't we risk being vulnerable.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_06: But uh we are called uh as um uh disciples of Christ.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_06: And uh, you know, the early church fathers said every one of the disciples had horrendous death.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_06: One brother was crucified upside down, and people are being martyred all over the world for their faith.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_06: And uh and so, like I said earlier, the prayer is Lord enlarge the remnant.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_06: He's raising up a true church with authenticity that you can see there's something different about these people.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, they love unconditionally with no strings attached.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_06: They don't love uh because you did this or did that, or love uh if you do this or did that.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_06: They love in spite of.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_06: And that's what God and that starts with authentic relationships among one another, and and being accountable to one another and and encouraging one another.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_06: The ministry of encouragement seemingly has gone on permanent display vacation.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_06: Because if you're like me, most people that call me want something.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_06: And many times somebody calls you up and say, but Pastor, how you doing?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_06: I just want you to know, I'm thinking about you.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_06: Can I at anything I can pray for you?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_06: How often does that happen?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_06: You know, sometimes if you hold your breath, you don't hold your breath.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_06: Hella freeze over before somebody calls you up and say, I'm just thinking about a brother.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_06: How can I pray for you today?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: And in as the church, we reconcile, we come to Christ and we we place this emphasis upon, you know, solving or working out some of the racial problems and tensions that that we have had.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: Again, it's something we have to steer through very carefully.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: I will say this, you know, I want everybody to be saved, sanctified, filled with the Holy Spirit, and so forth, and so and so on.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: But the reality of it is everybody's not going that way.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: And if the church or the African-American Caucasians are going to come together and try to work out some of these racial problems and tensions that have gone on for a number of years, though, yet instill it's gonna be very, very challenging to really try to work these things out on a very broad scale and not include the same type of love and concern for brothers and sisters who are not Christians.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: You with me?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: You with me?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because you all are starting to talk to me, you're getting closer to me.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: And eventually you're gonna have to you're gonna have to dialogue with some people who are not Christians, who are never gonna be Christians.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and still you need to get along with them also.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: You need to be concerned about them.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: You need to be concerned about what happens in their mosque and so forth or so on.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: Other than that, the the racial component to it is not going, it's it's not going to really, it's not it's not going to cover enough of it.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: How do we do this?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: I know when I'm talking to, you know, Muslims and things of this nature, you know, some of them I try to convert, and some of them I leave alone.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: After I I use the biblical principle, some of them, you know, if a person is a heretic after the first or second admonition, Paul said, then you reject them and you talk to them, talk to them, and then you find out that they just don't really want to go away.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: You leave them alone in terms of trying to convert them.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's that that's what he was talking about.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: But it's terms of trying to, you know, get along with them, live peaceably with them, and so forth on, you know, that um that that that that can that continues.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not going to look and go very well, I think, in the African American community in particular.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: Again, if if you show all this this love for, you know, swank for the missionary church or your church or so forth and so on, and we're not concerned about the natural needs of other other African Americans.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why I think you need down there.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right, it's it's gonna get to the city.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_06: You gotta be like in the mid in wherever whatever concentric circle of contact we have.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, that encompasses saved and unsaved and like.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_06: And because people, they don't care how much you know till they know how much you care.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly right.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_06: When they know how much you care, then they care how much you know.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_06: It's almost like I gotta earn the right to share Christ with you.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_06: I I'm concerned about you as a person.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_06: And so when when you start relating to other people and they see that you care, you know, you gotta earn the right to speak to their life.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_06: And then the Lord will open up the door where you can speak.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: And what I'm saying is you have to convert even if they don't convert.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_06: That's why you saturate all that with prayer, because God has to deal with the heart.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_06: Even if they don't, right.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_06: You gotta we want them to.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_06: All we supposed to do is is share the gospel and lead the results to God.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, all right, sure.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: And and and and I say this also too, because y'all y'all don't see it in in that in in in the food program because they everybody's not wearing the the Muslim garb and this and that.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: But I I I looked at one of those gatherings.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: One of those days when we fed about a hundred people, I don't know, let's say, I don't know, let's say fifty of them were men.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'll put put it in in hair.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: But about 40 of them were Muslims.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: They were.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: And nobody made any difference or whatever.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, when and you know what I tell them when we're going out doing this, especially the young guys on the street when I'm trying to invite them and they say, Well, I'm Muslim, say I tell them I say, Every Muslim I know eat.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I tell them.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm wondering if the takeaway from some of the conversation here, um as we think about reconciliation, is uh choosing to make uh one friend or two friends or um family to family with with with a couple of families and and showing that that you care.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um would you agree with that, gentlemen?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_06: Build a relationship.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_06: You come to my house, we have dinner, we sit down, talk, fellowship, begin to get to know each other.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_06: It might start with just going to lunch together.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_06: And let's talk.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_06: And um that's how I build a lot of the relationships we've just talked about uh and and related from a Christocentric perspective and practical application from my lens, and then I want to hear what how you feel.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_06: What is what is God saying to you about this thing, based on what you know about the word of God, about doing being just doing justice and loving mercy and walking humbly with God, about stuff like you know, uh, you know, love God and and love your neighbor as yourself, your near one.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_06: Who's ever in your concentric circle of contact needs to see uh for many people the only Bible they're gonna read is our lives.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: Amen.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I like the idea of that.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um I would say this is for me personally, if someone's doing something like that, getting together and talking.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm I'm very comfortable talking in this group.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the time, you say I don't do a lot of talking.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'll sit to a whole meeting and sit and say very little.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: I would say for me personally, is we're doing this.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: If I don't jump and run at it, it's probably it's not going to be a racial thing or whatever.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: But my my natural personality, some people not big on the Myers, Briggs, or whatever, though.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: My natural personality, I don't I don't normally jump and run and interact with people.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's the problem I had with Revan Cosby when people thought I was being very standoffish toward him.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: When he first first coming around, I wouldn't do them any different than anybody else.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: You might come around me and I'll have no problem.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: You might invite me, come on, let's get together, and I'll tell you no.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe your your personality.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: My personality.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody's uniquely unique.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'd say in a heartbeat, no, I don't I don't do that.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm not even interested in doing that, you know.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: But wouldn't it be a dull world if God made us all the same?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_06: Certain things I just fearfully and wonderfully made.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I just don't do it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: But but the church can work for reconciliation from church to church, as well as uh individual to individual, uh family to family, and I I sense that's that's where we're coming out here is to maybe take it in bite-sized pieces.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: As we listen listen to the news, we're hearing so many things that are wrong about society, and um those uh things won't change overnight uh with uh with theory.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm sensing from from everyone around the table that uh uh practical uh one-on-one type of relationships is is what you're advocating for.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_06: See, and then uh whatever your sphere of influence, if you're on city council or or or you gotta stand up for righteousness and justice.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_06: And it might cost you something, it might cost you some friends, or so-called friends.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_06: And and that's a biblical mandate that we're to be light in the midst of darkness.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_06: And uh I had conversations with people where I I said, I need you to step up to the plate because you're in a room I'm I can't get in.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_06: And God is calling you to stand up and say, This is sin, this is wrong, and we gotta write this.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_06: And when when people stand up uh in in our communities uh it it and expose them to other individuals, I'm not angry.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_06: Uh I'm concerned, but I I get angry about what God gets angry about.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_06: That's righteous indignation.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_06: When he went in and turned the the money changers over, he said, My house is a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, he was he was hot.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_06: And and what angers him ought to anger us.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_06: And uh and so and that's not popular.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's not at all.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: We've been speaking today with Reverend Keith Williams and Reverend Alfred Duncan about racism and reconciliation.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: We're thankful for these uh brothers and their ministry that they have in the city and uh and uh for the gospel ministry.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: We commend uh their ministry uh to you, and we uh recommend uh the documentary uh Unchanged uh Unchained Generational Trauma and Healing, as well as the ministries of these fine men.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you for having us.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: In our next uh uh broadcast uh we're going to be uh dialoguing with uh Dr.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: David Lamb about the topic God Behaving Badly, investigating surprising passages from the Old Testament that seem to contradict a God of Love.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Our uh guest will be David Lamb, who is the academic dean at Messio Seminary in Philadelphia.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: You've been listening to Centrally Speaking, a broadcast ministry from the Central Schwankfelder Church in Lansdale, Pennsylvania.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: Our website is www.cscfamily.org.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: See our website for service times.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you're in the area, we warmly welcome you to join us.