Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Pop culture preacher busted in sex affair, Hillsong PR disaster

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Pop culture preacher busted in sex affair, Hillsong PR disaster · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:06
Speaker 1: Justin Bieber, Selena Gomez, scads of stars rushed to Hill
0:14
Speaker 1: Song Church, the New Age Christian version of church, but
0:20
Speaker 1: now in the way of the discovery of affairs, a
0:24
Speaker 1: sex scandal, claims of misappropriation of funds. What's next? Is there?
0:31
Speaker 1: An investigation ongoing and a swift fall from Grace Lens
0:41
Speaker 1: fired earlier this month, the church, citing several reasons, including
0:46
Speaker 1: quote moral failures, launching a quote independent investigation into the
0:50
Speaker 1: culture of the church, admitting he was unfaithful to his
0:54
Speaker 1: wife of seventeen years, writing on Instagram, I take full
0:58
Speaker 1: responsibility for my action. I now begin a journey of
1:01
Speaker 1: rebuilding trust with my wife Laura and my children and
1:05
Speaker 1: taking real time to work on and heal my own
1:07
Speaker 1: life and seek out the help that I need. You
1:10
Speaker 1: were just hearing our friends, Zerene Shaw at ABC News. Well,
1:14
Speaker 1: you know what, God bless him. But I'm still concerned
1:16
Speaker 1: about allegations of misappropriations of funds. And when I say funds,
1:21
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the money that we all put in
1:25
Speaker 1: the offering plate, those funds. Is it true? With me
1:31
Speaker 1: and all Star panel to make sense of it all?
1:33
Speaker 1: With me? Troy Slayton High profile criminal defense attorney Joining
1:36
Speaker 1: me out of LA. You can find him at Floyd
1:39
Speaker 1: Skier in Law dot com. Doctor Bethany Marshall, Psycho Analyst
1:44
Speaker 1: to the Stars, Joining me from LA at doctor Bethany
1:47
Speaker 1: Marshall dot com. She's the star of a brand new
1:49
Speaker 1: Netflix series, Bling Empire. Stephen Lampley, author of a brand
1:54
Speaker 1: new book, former co author Speaker Undercover sv You Detective,
2:01
Speaker 1: brand new book twelve and Murder, and you can find
2:04
Speaker 1: that on Amazon. Emmy Award winning national investigative correspondent formerly
2:10
Speaker 1: with The Washington Post, then with CNN. Art Harris at
2:14
Speaker 1: Art Harris Investigates dot com. Special guests Joining us Hannah
2:18
Speaker 1: Frishburg from The New York Post Features reporter and Tanya
2:23
Speaker 1: Eleven Hillsong critic and author People in Glass Houses, an
2:29
Speaker 1: insider story of a life in and out of Hillsong.
2:33
Speaker 1: You can find her at Tanya Levin dot com. Wow,
2:37
Speaker 1: Where do I even start? First of all, to you,
2:41
Speaker 1: Hannah Frishbury, Joining us with The New York Post. For
2:44
Speaker 1: those people that have not heard of Hillsong or Lentz,
2:49
Speaker 1: Carl Lentz, tell me what is it? Why the big deal?
2:53
Speaker 1: Hillsong is an Australia based megachurch that has built its
2:57
Speaker 1: brand on being youth oriented. It's got a lot of
3:01
Speaker 1: celebrity endorsements from folks who seem to enjoy the music.
3:06
Speaker 1: Hill Song's got a huge branch that's dedicated to music.
3:10
Speaker 1: It's very catchy, very poppy, Jesus oriented but also danceable.
3:15
Speaker 1: And yeah, they've recently come into the headline for the
3:19
Speaker 1: fall of Lentz, who was their star pastor, which has
3:22
Speaker 1: unearthed a ton of other muck to do with the
3:25
Speaker 1: church following its fall. But we are talking about celebrities
3:29
Speaker 1: flocking to Hill's Song and you said it's Australian base,
3:33
Speaker 1: but it is here in the US. What celebrities are
3:36
Speaker 1: we talking about. I'm sure that it'll fly to Australia
3:39
Speaker 1: every Sunday morning. Where are they located? The celebrities? I mean,
3:43
Speaker 1: Bieber is the biggest name I would say who's associated
3:46
Speaker 1: with the church because him and Carl Ventz got real
3:48
Speaker 1: buddy buddy for about a year there and he was, yeah,
3:52
Speaker 1: I mean basically serving as like a giant walking celebrity
3:55
Speaker 1: endorsement for this church during that time. Let's take a
3:58
Speaker 1: listen to our cutting number three This is Mary hk
4:01
Speaker 1: Choit hbo by Sneeze. It is Justin Bieber to Hillsong
4:05
Speaker 1: what Tom Cruise is to Scientology. No if apples and oranges,
4:09
Speaker 1: because Scientology you're so out there. They're like, you're you're,
4:12
Speaker 1: you're the guy. So if we can get you indoctrinated
4:15
Speaker 1: quick enough, we've been making the folks fee. We've never
4:17
Speaker 1: done that. Justin's never set foot on stage. Hillsong works.
4:22
Speaker 1: Their global audience is staggering. Six point one billion minutes
4:26
Speaker 1: of Hillsong content was viewed on YouTube last year. Hillsong United,
4:30
Speaker 1: one of their music groups, went double platinum. It's shiny
4:34
Speaker 1: packaging for age old messages. Well, I don't know what's
4:38
Speaker 1: wrong with shiny packaging for age old messages when you're
4:41
Speaker 1: talking about the Old and New Testaments. But things went sideways.
4:46
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Amy a Robot ABC News. Lentz
4:49
Speaker 1: was known as a rock star, priested Hillsong, a church
4:52
Speaker 1: previously frequented by celebrities like Chris Pratt and Vanessa Hudgins,
4:56
Speaker 1: and followed online by more than half a million people.
5:00
Speaker 1: I want to love people more. I just want to
5:02
Speaker 1: love Carl Moore, Rnein Kareem says when she met Lentz
5:05
Speaker 1: five months ago, they began what she calls a consensual
5:08
Speaker 1: affair in spite of what she thought were red flags,
5:11
Speaker 1: including him telling her not to google him, saving her
5:14
Speaker 1: number in the notes app instead of his contact lists,
5:17
Speaker 1: and refusing to tell her his last name or what
5:20
Speaker 1: he did for a living, despite regularly posting photos of
5:23
Speaker 1: himself online with Hollywood elite and NBA stars, something she
5:27
Speaker 1: says she didn't know what first. He's looking. You know,
5:30
Speaker 1: I worked with celebrities, and I say what do exactly
5:32
Speaker 1: you do? And he keeps saying I managed celebrities and
5:37
Speaker 1: they travel with them. He didn't want to say what
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Speaker 1: he does. Did you think that was a red flag?
5:41
Speaker 1: He won't give you his last name? Yeah, it was
5:45
Speaker 1: to doctor Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst to the Stars, joining us
5:48
Speaker 1: from La ding Ding ding Ding Red flashing sign bell
5:54
Speaker 1: of alarm when the guy you're sleeping with won't tell
5:58
Speaker 1: you what he does for a living. Catchphrase don't google me.
6:03
Speaker 1: I mean I would run for the hills, screaming as
6:06
Speaker 1: if I had seen a monster. Don't google me. Well,
6:09
Speaker 1: the first thing you gotta do is google him but Nancy,
6:11
Speaker 1: think of the story as he might have spun for her,
6:14
Speaker 1: about don't google me. I'm working for these big celebrities
6:18
Speaker 1: and I've signed a non disclosure and if you know
6:21
Speaker 1: who I am, then you might tell other people. This
6:24
Speaker 1: pastor didn't lie small, He lied big, Nancy. He spun
6:29
Speaker 1: a story. Think of it as not just a comment about, Hey,
6:34
Speaker 1: I'd like to go out with you, I'd love to
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Speaker 1: have sex with you. I want to throw back to
6:38
Speaker 1: quila in your apartment every Sunday afternoon after church. It
6:43
Speaker 1: wasn't just that he built a narrative. This is not lying.
6:48
Speaker 1: This is lying, conning, and manipulativeness. So yes, she should
6:53
Speaker 1: have run for the hills, unless it was exciting for
6:55
Speaker 1: her like it was for him, in which case people
6:58
Speaker 1: are willing to believe almost anything exciting. You know what,
7:03
Speaker 1: I love my husband, I really do. I love him.
7:08
Speaker 1: The thought of doing anything to jeopardize my time with
7:14
Speaker 1: our children, i e. Co parenting fifty percent custody. Yeah,
7:20
Speaker 1: it's not that exciting, all right, It's not that exciting.
7:23
Speaker 1: The thought of being away from my children half the
7:25
Speaker 1: time that's not going to happen with me is a
7:28
Speaker 1: very special guest Tanya Levin Tanya Hillsong critic and author
7:32
Speaker 1: People in Glass Houses, an insider story of life in
7:36
Speaker 1: and out of Hillsong. Tanya. Of course Len's having affairs,
7:41
Speaker 1: multiple affairs, we think at least one right now isn't
7:45
Speaker 1: a crime. That's not a crime. Nor is this the
7:49
Speaker 1: first time a great preacher has fallen from grace? Does
7:53
Speaker 1: anybody remember the name Jimmy Swagger because I sure do
7:59
Speaker 1: roll it. I have sinned it, constue my Lord Wells,
8:06
Speaker 1: and I would ask that clearness every stage. Unto it
8:23
Speaker 1: is in the seas of buds forgiftfulness? Did he have
8:28
Speaker 1: to ask for forgiveness on a microphone televised Aunt Harris,
8:34
Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning national correspondent, you're the one that crack Swaggert, right,
8:40
Speaker 1: I was among those. But I was there the day
8:42
Speaker 1: he resigned. After chasing a lot of rumor and innuendo.
8:47
Speaker 1: He was confessing to something people weren't quite sure of,
8:50
Speaker 1: except that I actually interviewed a lady of the night
8:54
Speaker 1: who worked out of a twenty dollars Actually say, lady
8:58
Speaker 1: of the night, Okay, I guess I'm impressed enough. We'd
9:03
Speaker 1: kerk go ahead and Ironically, Swagger was caught outside the
9:10
Speaker 1: motel by the private eye of a rival preacher he
9:14
Speaker 1: had attacked for having other relationships than his wife. So
9:20
Speaker 1: this guy was very upset because he lost a big
9:22
Speaker 1: TV deal and he got a PI to stake. Swaggered
9:25
Speaker 1: out when he heard he was going to this little
9:28
Speaker 1: hotel and got pictures of him. And he asked, Jimmy,
9:32
Speaker 1: what are you doing here? And he said, oh, I'm
9:34
Speaker 1: just changing my flat tire. He said, no, you're not
9:36
Speaker 1: changing your flight tire. My PI cut your valve stems. Jimmy,
9:40
Speaker 1: bad enough, you're lying about this. But you've been lying
9:42
Speaker 1: about me forever anyway? Was it always got wrong? When
9:45
Speaker 1: he makes TV and preachers climb stories with Nancy Grace, guys.
9:58
Speaker 1: The latest passer to seemingly topple from the pulpit is
10:03
Speaker 1: the Hillsong a megachurch pastor Carl Lentz straight out to
10:08
Speaker 1: Tanya Levin, whose new book People in Glasshouse is inside
10:12
Speaker 1: a story Life in and Out of Hillsong. What do
10:14
Speaker 1: you make of it, Tanya, you were in Hillsong. What
10:17
Speaker 1: does this all mean? Oh? I mean, well, it's just
10:20
Speaker 1: entirely part of their culture. These people will become untouchable.
10:25
Speaker 1: They have weeping women at their feet, and you know,
10:30
Speaker 1: nobody holds them to account for anything, and they are
10:34
Speaker 1: made into you know, complete celebrities, only with God as
10:38
Speaker 1: a backup. So you know, they think they can do anything,
10:42
Speaker 1: and they generally can. You know, why is it, doctor
10:45
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, that we all get so distraught when a
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Speaker 1: pastor cheats or with a congregant, or a pastor defrauds
10:57
Speaker 1: the church of money. That money is put in the
11:00
Speaker 1: offering plate by people like my mom and dad who
11:04
Speaker 1: work night shifts to support us and tied to the church.
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Speaker 1: Why is it so upsetting when a pastor does something
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Speaker 1: that other people do every day and we just chalk
11:18
Speaker 1: it off because the pastor grooms the congregation in these cases,
11:24
Speaker 1: not all pastor's groom the congregations, but in this case,
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Speaker 1: the pastor pastor's groomed the congregation just like a pedophile
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Speaker 1: grooms the victims. To believe that the victims in this case,
11:37
Speaker 1: the congregants are special and unique. They have a special
11:40
Speaker 1: place in the world that they are contributing to the
11:43
Speaker 1: Kingdom of God. And many of these followers put money
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Speaker 1: in the offering plate that they didn't even have to give. Nancy.
11:52
Speaker 1: My parents tied ten percent of their income their entire life.
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Speaker 1: When my father asked my grand mother for my mother's
12:01
Speaker 1: hand in marriage, she was a single mom. Her first
12:04
Speaker 1: question was, do you tithe? I mean, tiding holds a
12:09
Speaker 1: very sacred place in the religious community. So to think
12:13
Speaker 1: that all that money goes for fancy dinners, gym memberships, mistresses,
12:21
Speaker 1: fancy bottles of wine. When you're giving money, they could
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Speaker 1: have gone to your children's shoes, school tuition, family vacations, Nancy.
12:32
Speaker 1: That hurts. That really really hurts. And it's the double standard.
12:37
Speaker 1: It's the pastor who says being homosexual is wrong, so
12:42
Speaker 1: then you renounce your sexuality for your entire life, and
12:46
Speaker 1: then you find out that that pastor is indeed having
12:49
Speaker 1: an affair. It is the deception from a person who's
12:53
Speaker 1: in a position of trust. I'm trying to figure out
12:56
Speaker 1: here to Hannah Frishburg joining us from the New York Post.
13:00
Speaker 1: She's the features reporter there. Hannah, the sex a pastor
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Speaker 1: having sex or the congregann or someone else is you know,
13:07
Speaker 1: the oldest story in the book. You can find that
13:11
Speaker 1: in the Old Testament but allegedly misappropriation of funds. What
13:18
Speaker 1: are the claims and they have there are no formal
13:22
Speaker 1: charges as of right now. What are the claims? What's
13:25
Speaker 1: the investigation? A number of congregants reached out to me
13:29
Speaker 1: to say that during their time at the church, doing
13:31
Speaker 1: what was functionally volunteer work, often babysitting or doing other
13:35
Speaker 1: household tasks for the pastors, they got access to these
13:38
Speaker 1: text cards, these personal use business cards that were apparently
13:43
Speaker 1: like debit cards, just full of ties money, which is
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Speaker 1: it seems to be like there might be an investigation
13:50
Speaker 1: into this in terms of it being embezzlement, as this
13:53
Speaker 1: was money that the you know, the church was getting
13:55
Speaker 1: from its congregants in the name of bettering the church,
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Speaker 1: and it appears to be going to large amounts of
14:01
Speaker 1: takeout food, It's going to ATVs that some of the
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Speaker 1: pastors were just apparently recklessly writing around Williamsburg Dean and
14:09
Speaker 1: de Luca, gift baskets, just a whole variety of luxury
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Speaker 1: goods that I don't think these congregants would have given
14:16
Speaker 1: if they had realized that's where their money was going
14:19
Speaker 1: to be spent. Oh, absolutely not, you know, to Steve Lampley,
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Speaker 1: former undercover detective and author of brand new book Twelve
14:30
Speaker 1: and Murdered. You can find that on Facebook. Steve, this
14:33
Speaker 1: sounds like a very extensive and exhaustive white collar crime
14:37
Speaker 1: investigation based on what Hannah the claims that Hannah Frishburg
14:41
Speaker 1: is laying out. And again the Hillside pastor has not
14:46
Speaker 1: been formally charged. But if members are coming forward to
14:52
Speaker 1: reporters like Hannah Frishburg's saying I tied my money, and
14:56
Speaker 1: now we're finding out about these debit cards, it were
15:01
Speaker 1: chapped straight into tie the money, according to reports, how
15:06
Speaker 1: do you track that down? How do you prove something
15:08
Speaker 1: like that? Nancy? These prepaid cards, it's going to be hard,
15:11
Speaker 1: it's gonna be hard. I think they're called PEX cards.
15:14
Speaker 1: It's going to be really hard to do on them.
15:16
Speaker 1: And and now maybe that's why they use them. I'm
15:17
Speaker 1: assuming it's my opinion. I don't know. Maybe that's the
15:21
Speaker 1: premise for the PEX because it is law. Those cards
15:25
Speaker 1: are what are they? Steve Lampley. A PEX card is
15:29
Speaker 1: nothing more than a prepaid similar to a prepaid debit card.
15:33
Speaker 1: You put money on there, you spend it. H It's
15:36
Speaker 1: a lot different than a credit card where you have
15:38
Speaker 1: a trackable account of each of each expenditure that you
15:43
Speaker 1: do that you get through the mail. These PEX cards
15:45
Speaker 1: are prepaid accounts and you can use them anyway any
15:48
Speaker 1: way you choose to. But the problem that the church
15:52
Speaker 1: church investigations are a little different because you've got the
15:57
Speaker 1: you know, you've got the Constitution back in them, or
15:59
Speaker 1: free assembly and freedom of religion, and I believe it was.
16:04
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think the founding Fathers when they
16:06
Speaker 1: came up with freedom of religion anticipated paid debit cards
16:11
Speaker 1: to give out to people to right ATMs and by
16:14
Speaker 1: lavish giftbacks. I don't think that's exactly what they meant
16:17
Speaker 1: by freedom of religion. But I do think there's a
16:21
Speaker 1: tax issue there. Hannah Freshburg, there's the issue of churches
16:26
Speaker 1: having this exempt status. They don't pay taxes all charities, actually,
16:32
Speaker 1: not just churches the way the rest of us do.
16:35
Speaker 1: And that's for a reason because the government wants to
16:38
Speaker 1: promote charity. But if there is wrongdoing, that status is
16:44
Speaker 1: gonna be yanked prompto. I don't know. I mean, this
16:48
Speaker 1: is certainly not the first time a church hasn't found
16:50
Speaker 1: to be misusing its status tracts exempt. John Oliver did
16:54
Speaker 1: a really good segment where he created a church called
16:57
Speaker 1: Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption and it's a legally recognized
17:02
Speaker 1: church and he was able to get tax exempt donations.
17:06
Speaker 1: And I think he only stopped it when people started
17:09
Speaker 1: sending in literal feed But I mean, it's a huge
17:13
Speaker 1: loophole in the tax law in America. I can't speak
17:15
Speaker 1: to the rest of the world. Climb stories with Nancy Grace.
17:30
Speaker 1: Let's get our cut twenty three. You're going to hear
17:33
Speaker 1: a voice you know very well speaking to Barbara Walters. Listen.
17:38
Speaker 1: You had preached that God wanted his subjects to live
17:42
Speaker 1: a lavish or a successful lifestyle. You quoted from the
17:47
Speaker 1: New Testament. I pray you will be in good health
17:50
Speaker 1: as your sole prosperous. Did you really feel that God
17:53
Speaker 1: was advising you to acquire material wealth. I really felt
17:58
Speaker 1: that prost charity gospel was the truth. I really thought
18:02
Speaker 1: that God wanted us to not have any problems, not
18:07
Speaker 1: have any sickness, not have any pain. Yes, but that's
18:10
Speaker 1: not the same as God wanting you to have lots
18:12
Speaker 1: of money, expensive clothes, huge salaries, lots of luxuries, we're
18:17
Speaker 1: not talking about health and pains. Yes, but I really
18:21
Speaker 1: sincerely believed in what I was teaching. Our ministry just
18:24
Speaker 1: kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. You were hearing
18:28
Speaker 1: the voice of Jim Baker, of Jim and Timmy Faye Baker.
18:32
Speaker 1: What does that have to do with Hillsong today the
18:35
Speaker 1: topic we're discussing, Jackie, Well, you know what, it seems
18:39
Speaker 1: like there's nothing new under the sun. Not only is
18:42
Speaker 1: the founder of this huge megachurch seemingly doing the Lord's
18:46
Speaker 1: work here on Earth under fire after the pastor is
18:50
Speaker 1: uncovered with affairs, but now allegations from inside the church
18:57
Speaker 1: were there, Tie, that's going to support a lavish lifestyle
19:03
Speaker 1: by the Hillsong pastor and his family. Well, nobody knows
19:08
Speaker 1: Jim and Tammy Faye Baker better than Art Harris joining us.
19:12
Speaker 1: Art Harris investigates dot Com, Art hit Me, and Andree.
19:16
Speaker 1: Jim Baker was very different than Hillsong. He was Hillsong
19:20
Speaker 1: on steroids. This was someone who's lavish spending threatened at
19:26
Speaker 1: Tackle exempt status. IRS did not like the fact that
19:29
Speaker 1: quote substantial portion of his earnings. You were talking about
19:33
Speaker 1: millions of dollars a year went to him and Tammy
19:35
Speaker 1: Faye Baker, his late wife. You remember who who cried
19:39
Speaker 1: on TV in her mask a Iran, very flamboyant. They
19:42
Speaker 1: had people enthralled with a daily talk show with a
19:47
Speaker 1: prosperity gospel. It was called Praise the Lord that people
19:50
Speaker 1: might not remember. And they spent money on eight thousand
19:53
Speaker 1: dollars dinner parties, three hundred and fifty dollars. That was
19:56
Speaker 1: a lot of money at night hotel rooms and they
19:59
Speaker 1: had to pay. Do you remember the air conditioned dog house,
20:03
Speaker 1: air condition doghouse? They sent their uh in, their security
20:07
Speaker 1: guard out to buy sex toys with charitable tax exempt contributions.
20:13
Speaker 1: I knew, I knew you would be the one to
20:14
Speaker 1: bring up sex toys Art. Now how did I know that?
20:17
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I knew that you would. I
20:19
Speaker 1: knew it wouldn't be Jackie over here. I knew I
20:22
Speaker 1: knew it would be Art here. Go ahead. The Jimer
20:24
Speaker 1: served time in prison for defrauding his his flock. He
20:30
Speaker 1: was collecting more than sixty million dollars to build condos
20:34
Speaker 1: for the elderly that he never built, and that's what
20:37
Speaker 1: got him ultimately into trouble in Federal corl about the money.
20:41
Speaker 1: Aren't here? You remember, I think you were in the
20:43
Speaker 1: courtroom when he kind of got under council table and
20:46
Speaker 1: crawled into a fetal position, That's right, and they had
20:49
Speaker 1: to coax him out. Respect. Man was weeping and he
20:53
Speaker 1: was practiced, you know, in the in the yard of
20:55
Speaker 1: weeping from his TV shows, as was his his nemesis,
20:59
Speaker 1: Jimmy swag This was about the godfathers of the Gospel,
21:04
Speaker 1: about about different TV preachers who bumped each other off
21:08
Speaker 1: of it with any windows and sex scandals so they
21:11
Speaker 1: could grab their flock, their market share, and get even
21:15
Speaker 1: more money. You know what, Troy Slaton, I was asking something,
21:18
Speaker 1: aren't Harris said? Jogged my memory? I was asking doctor
21:22
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, why is so upsetting when a pastor does
21:26
Speaker 1: something like this. It's called hypocrisy. It's hypocrisy when you
21:33
Speaker 1: think about Swaggert. And I don't know what religion if
21:36
Speaker 1: any of you have, Troy, but this whole thing about
21:40
Speaker 1: remember when Baker just said he relied on something in
21:44
Speaker 1: the New Testament that said the Lord wants your soul
21:47
Speaker 1: to prosper. That has nothing to do with your wallet.
21:51
Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't know the teaching. Just look
21:54
Speaker 1: at Christ. He had a robe and a pair of
21:57
Speaker 1: sandals that somebody probably gave him for Pete's sake. That's it.
22:01
Speaker 1: He wandered from home to home preaching the gospel. He
22:06
Speaker 1: had nothing, nothing at all. That's the example I think.
22:13
Speaker 1: But Troy, it's the hypocrisy that's so irritating that just
22:17
Speaker 1: shocks everyone. I understand that, and I understand that when
22:21
Speaker 1: people are putting money in the dishes for tithe or
22:26
Speaker 1: sending in donation from quite not a dish, you have
22:30
Speaker 1: just confirmed my suspicion that you do not have a religion,
22:33
Speaker 1: because if you did, you would not call it a dish.
22:36
Speaker 1: But go ahead, go ahead. Not judging Nancy. They don't
22:41
Speaker 1: have the offering plates at my temple here in Los Angeles,
22:44
Speaker 1: but anyhow, they don't have a dish either, But Nancy, Nancy,
22:51
Speaker 1: the idea is the same. And I understand that when
22:54
Speaker 1: people are offering money and giving money, donating money to
22:57
Speaker 1: the church, and whatever way that they did, it's they
23:02
Speaker 1: expect that it's going to be used for charitable purposes.
23:05
Speaker 1: The organization is tax exempt under five or one C three,
23:10
Speaker 1: which means that they don't pay taxes. You can't tax God.
23:14
Speaker 1: And that's the way our government has it set up.
23:18
Speaker 1: But the church needs to keep very careful records of
23:22
Speaker 1: where every single dollar goes. And there's nothing that says
23:27
Speaker 1: that the pastors or anyone that works for the church
23:31
Speaker 1: can't have a high salary. There's nothing that says that
23:34
Speaker 1: they very well for their work. And so I want
23:40
Speaker 1: them to be paid because what they do is so
23:44
Speaker 1: important in our world. But you remember this phrase. I'll
23:48
Speaker 1: throw this one to you, Tanya eleven, author was Inside
23:54
Speaker 1: of Hillsong, author of People in Glasshouses, inside a story
23:57
Speaker 1: of life in and out of Hillsong. Give to Rome
24:02
Speaker 1: that which is Rome's Caesar, and give to the Lord,
24:06
Speaker 1: which is the Lord. And Christ specifically removed himself from
24:12
Speaker 1: money matters, except do you remember, Tanya, the parable of
24:19
Speaker 1: the widow's might. The widow, who had nothing, goes up
24:23
Speaker 1: to the front and drops in the equivalent of about
24:26
Speaker 1: a half a penny, And the rich guy showed off
24:29
Speaker 1: by putting in a lot of money. And Christ said
24:33
Speaker 1: her might meant more to the Lord than the rich
24:37
Speaker 1: guy's treasure trove, because it was all she had. So
24:42
Speaker 1: here we see a complete distortion of that very basic
24:48
Speaker 1: premise according to reports. Yeah, I mean the whole thing
24:52
Speaker 1: is completely back to the front. When I began researching
24:56
Speaker 1: to have a look at what you know was different
24:59
Speaker 1: between Hillsong and the Gospels, it was like every single
25:04
Speaker 1: line they were just doing the opposite with you know,
25:08
Speaker 1: the way that people dress and the way they show off.
25:11
Speaker 1: But I think another really important thing to talk about
25:15
Speaker 1: is that these guys actually don't do any charity. So
25:19
Speaker 1: what they will do is they will rely on volunteers
25:23
Speaker 1: and donations. So if there's a Christmas hamper going out
25:27
Speaker 1: with Hillsong's name on it, there were volunteers that donated
25:31
Speaker 1: the contents, volunteers that put it together, volunteers that will
25:34
Speaker 1: distribute that. So they're never really using their ties for
25:39
Speaker 1: anything charitable. And that's the truth of it. They really
25:44
Speaker 1: don't deserve a tax restatus at all that I cannot
25:49
Speaker 1: find an example in the research of anywhere where they
25:52
Speaker 1: actually use church funding towards helping anybody, apart from moment volunteers. Yes,
26:00
Speaker 1: I hear doctor Bethany and by the way, everybody, doctor
26:03
Speaker 1: Bethany not only psychoanalyst to the stars, but also her
26:08
Speaker 1: parents were missionaries. They've lived the missionary lifestyle of having
26:14
Speaker 1: so little. You know, Bethany, what Taniel Levin is saying
26:18
Speaker 1: is so integral to so many church foundations. You know,
26:23
Speaker 1: I'm a Methodist. We're all about love and in all
26:28
Speaker 1: every Methodist church I've ever been to, at the top
26:32
Speaker 1: of the budget is missions, and they every church needs
26:38
Speaker 1: to hit that mission's quota of whatever they take in,
26:43
Speaker 1: and it is guarded and it is watched by the
26:46
Speaker 1: hierarchy of the Methodist Church. I mean, whether it goes
26:51
Speaker 1: to hurricane relief or children in need, it has to
26:56
Speaker 1: go to missions, and that's very carefully watched. It is earmarked. Nancy.
27:02
Speaker 1: I remember once a man in the congregation bought my
27:06
Speaker 1: father a suit, and I was like maybe eleven or
27:08
Speaker 1: twelve years old, and I couldn't figure out why somebody
27:11
Speaker 1: was buying my father a suit so he could wear
27:14
Speaker 1: to preach in the pulpit. And then I realized for
27:17
Speaker 1: the first time, it's because our family didn't have money,
27:20
Speaker 1: and that we were reliant. My dad was getting paid
27:23
Speaker 1: a good salary by the Baptist Church. But also people
27:26
Speaker 1: in the congregation wanted to help out in some way,
27:30
Speaker 1: so it was so different from what you're seeing with
27:34
Speaker 1: Hellsong Church. You know, Nancy, We've covered so many cults
27:37
Speaker 1: over the years where there's a hierarchical organization, people at
27:43
Speaker 1: the top are segregated from people at the bottom, and
27:47
Speaker 1: there's a rampant sex culture, and we eventually assumed, well,
27:51
Speaker 1: this is just a sex culled In this case, this
27:55
Speaker 1: church seems to be a money called. In fact, I
27:58
Speaker 1: don't think we should really call it the church. I'm
28:01
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it's a pond, the scheme or sometimes
28:06
Speaker 1: the church clime stories with Nancy Grace. For those of
28:20
Speaker 1: you just joining us, we're talking about the Hillside Mega
28:25
Speaker 1: Church and it's pastor uh, it's Hillsong. Excuse me, it's
28:30
Speaker 1: Pastor Carl lentz Um. An affair has been uncovered? Is
28:35
Speaker 1: there just one? Are there more? Just one? Just one
28:38
Speaker 1: that we know? Any that shows what you know? Jackie?
28:42
Speaker 1: Although I said it, you were you were throwing the strings.
28:45
Speaker 1: Um is that Tanya eleven jumping in or Hannah Frisburg?
28:49
Speaker 1: This is this is me Tanya high grateful to I'm
28:54
Speaker 1: just so grateful to hear somebody saying that, you know,
28:57
Speaker 1: this place is not a church. It's got nothing to
28:59
Speaker 1: do with religion. They just throw in a few Bible
29:03
Speaker 1: verses to support it. It is no different to Coca
29:06
Speaker 1: Cola or any kind of multinational corporation that's making money
29:10
Speaker 1: out of people's feelings. These guys just use a couple
29:14
Speaker 1: of Bible that to prop them up. It's a Ponzi scheme.
29:19
Speaker 1: It's a cult, you know, Art Harris. That hurts me.
29:25
Speaker 1: I mean that's why we say we practice Christianity, because
29:29
Speaker 1: I for one, I'm really not very good at it.
29:32
Speaker 1: But it hurts me to see Christ or the Bible
29:39
Speaker 1: use this way danby these people put you know, themselves
29:42
Speaker 1: on a pulpit and the followers are so brainwashed by
29:46
Speaker 1: their gospel of send me money, you will go to heaven.
29:50
Speaker 1: It is such an old, recycled con game that they're
29:57
Speaker 1: the ones ultimately who are devastated like you when they
30:01
Speaker 1: give somebody, you know, their trust and they're let down
30:05
Speaker 1: just because they put man on a pedestal and they
30:08
Speaker 1: should be looking a little higher. You know something curious
30:10
Speaker 1: about you are at Harris. You're always right up in
30:13
Speaker 1: all these pastors that are with hookers and running around,
30:17
Speaker 1: and you know, I've got an exactly. I'm gonna put
30:20
Speaker 1: you and Bethany up after the program to try to
30:23
Speaker 1: figure out what that's all about. Hannah Frishburg joining me
30:26
Speaker 1: for the New York past She's the features reporter there
30:28
Speaker 1: and I love her. Hannah, What's what's happening next? Is
30:33
Speaker 1: there an investigation going on? I mean, I can't stop
30:36
Speaker 1: a pastor from cheating, Okay, can't that, but that's not
30:40
Speaker 1: breaking the law. And I'm certainly not the church lady.
30:44
Speaker 1: I only care when it's a crime, specifically a felony.
30:47
Speaker 1: Is there an investigation going on? And how did these
30:51
Speaker 1: Hillsong I'm congregants come to you? How did they find you? What?
30:57
Speaker 1: What were they saying? Most people just found me over Instagram.
31:01
Speaker 1: My dms are open and they just sent over messages
31:05
Speaker 1: after I started initially covering Carl Lenz's firing as an
31:09
Speaker 1: assignment and said there's a lot more here and we'd
31:12
Speaker 1: like to tell you about it. There is not in
31:16
Speaker 1: an investigation on a legal level as far as I'm
31:18
Speaker 1: currently aware, But I did receive screen chats of an
31:21
Speaker 1: email this morning from Brian Houston to the congregation flatly
31:26
Speaker 1: denying everything. That's his strategy. He just slatly denies everything.
31:29
Speaker 1: He just tweeted a few minutes ago, flatly denying the
31:32
Speaker 1: twenty million dollar lawsuit in Australia. He's pretty this is
31:35
Speaker 1: how he handled the allegations. In Australia. The Hillsong Property
31:42
Speaker 1: Arm was involved in the construction of a variety of
31:47
Speaker 1: buildings residential in Rosebery, Australia that were built shodily, and
31:52
Speaker 1: the tenants there are suing because they bought these just
31:56
Speaker 1: under a million dollar units that are appear to be
31:59
Speaker 1: worthless and structurally unsound. But Hillsong is now reciprocally played
32:04
Speaker 1: their suite. Hillsong is now suing the company that is
32:08
Speaker 1: being sued. So it's just they just respond with aggression
32:12
Speaker 1: and denial consistently. And I wanted giving them money out
32:16
Speaker 1: of the account. By the way, what was that Utania?
32:19
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Hi, they've absolutely The company that paid for
32:22
Speaker 1: those buildings to be built has now said that that
32:27
Speaker 1: particular bank account that they used is now empty. They've
32:30
Speaker 1: moved all of the assets out of that company that
32:33
Speaker 1: built those apartments. That reminds me of when I used
32:37
Speaker 1: to work with the Federal Trade Commission in their anti
32:40
Speaker 1: trust and consumer protection divisions. I would go after one
32:43
Speaker 1: guy who was selling some zany diet aid making thousands
32:47
Speaker 1: and thousands of dollars a week. Yeah, and by the
32:49
Speaker 1: time I would get there, they would have already closed
32:53
Speaker 1: down that corporation and they were doing it under another
32:55
Speaker 1: name and then another time, and you can hardly catch them.
32:59
Speaker 1: And that's the federal government. That's it, just me, Nancy,
33:02
Speaker 1: it was the Federal Trade Commission trying to stop that. Wow, Okay,
33:06
Speaker 1: so that's happening. I didn't know exactly how they're behaving.
33:10
Speaker 1: They've got so many I mean, Hannah will tell you
33:12
Speaker 1: they've got so many different companies and they just move
33:15
Speaker 1: access around. Um yes, internationally. So you know, it's you know,
33:21
Speaker 1: it's almost enough to make you turn your back on
33:25
Speaker 1: a church. But I am not doing that. The devil
33:28
Speaker 1: is not The devil is not getting the best of
33:32
Speaker 1: us today. You know, this is not the first time
33:36
Speaker 1: a pastor has an affair. And Troy Slayton, I'm sure
33:42
Speaker 1: you recall the New Jersey rabbi, very influential Rabbi Fred
33:47
Speaker 1: Newlander and a very very wealthy synagogue cheating over and
33:52
Speaker 1: over and over on his wife, ultimately murdering his wife
33:57
Speaker 1: and he got convicted. So cheating with your pore absolutely not.
34:03
Speaker 1: And that rabbi hired two men to kill his wife
34:07
Speaker 1: in a murder for higher plot. And so he's exactly
34:10
Speaker 1: where he deserves to be, which is serving a life
34:13
Speaker 1: sentence in prison. And so when people put, whether it
34:18
Speaker 1: be air rabbi, their priests, their pastor their minister, up
34:22
Speaker 1: on a pedestal and give them their hard earned money,
34:26
Speaker 1: they believe that they're doing it for some sort of
34:29
Speaker 1: good purpose. They feel better in donating that money to
34:35
Speaker 1: their temple, their church, and they expect the money is
34:38
Speaker 1: going to be used for a good purpose. And that's
34:41
Speaker 1: where the potential crime is. It's in misappropriation of funds,
34:47
Speaker 1: misuse of tax exempt status, fraud, embezzlement. Those are the
34:51
Speaker 1: potential crimes. But there is no crime in getting paid
34:56
Speaker 1: a high salary from the religious the organization. Well, you're
35:02
Speaker 1: right about that. And if this pastor Carl Lentz had
35:06
Speaker 1: an affair, you know, since I'm spouting off the little
35:09
Speaker 1: bit of scripture that I've memorized, I know under his
35:15
Speaker 1: and my religion, he is to be forgiven. Now being
35:19
Speaker 1: forgiven and being sentenced under the law for a crime
35:23
Speaker 1: are two very different things. So Tanya Levin and Hannah
35:28
Speaker 1: Frishburg Tanya author of the book People in Glass Houses,
35:31
Speaker 1: insider story to a life in and out of Hillsong.
35:34
Speaker 1: Hannah Frishburg with a New York Post Tanya Levin having
35:39
Speaker 1: an affair and right now he's only accused of one affair.
35:42
Speaker 1: He and his wife are trying to patch their marriage
35:44
Speaker 1: back together. That's not a crime. And again, the Hillsong Congregation,
35:51
Speaker 1: the church is denying any wrong doing. But if tie
35:57
Speaker 1: the money was used to fund a live lifestyle, that
36:02
Speaker 1: is going to be a crime. If it's true. Tanya, Oh,
36:05
Speaker 1: it's it's one hundred percent true. It's I mean, it's
36:08
Speaker 1: the way they've operated since I guess if they very
36:11
Speaker 1: first got a taste of Americana. This was a very
36:15
Speaker 1: small church up until the late eighties when they saw
36:19
Speaker 1: what was happening in the United States and they wanted
36:22
Speaker 1: some of that to themselves. And since then they've been
36:25
Speaker 1: pursuing the doa relentlessly, you know, and Karl was just
36:31
Speaker 1: a product of that system. Wellyanne, Hannah Frishburg, Yeah, that's
36:36
Speaker 1: been one of the most interesting things that my sources
36:39
Speaker 1: have told me about Hillsong cultures that when they were
36:42
Speaker 1: going to church in Sydney, it was mostly just local
36:45
Speaker 1: rugby players who were the big celebrities there. But there's
36:48
Speaker 1: something about Hillsong's presence in America that has uniquely blended
36:53
Speaker 1: with our toxic celebrity culture to just create this absolute
36:57
Speaker 1: religious celebrity behemoth, which is he's got a huge magnetic
37:02
Speaker 1: pull for people and their money, and it's just wildly toxic.
37:06
Speaker 1: As of right now, Lynce and Hillsong deny any and
37:10
Speaker 1: all wrongdoing. Let me be clear about that. We wait
37:17
Speaker 1: as this story unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story. Signing up
37:22
Speaker 1: Amen