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Robert “The Chief” Parish on a Life of Toughness · Sports In America with David Greene

• DAVID GREENE, HOST: Josh, is this our nightmare? Have we literally— is our nightmare coming true right now? JOSH DEAN: I mean, I'm so conflicted about this because on the one hand, yes, absolutely. On the other hand, as a resident of New York, I am so happy for the people of New York and for the Knicks Nation, as they call themselves. So I'm like bifurcating my feelings. DG: Feeling bifurcation, that's great. Well, just to orient people here who are listening to this thing, you're gonna be hearing a lot about the New York Knicks in the coming weeks because they are heading to the NBA Finals and because their fans are insufferable, let's just say. So you're going to be hearing about it in the news, you're to be hear about it on anywhere you actually know anyone who is a New York Knicks fan, but they are going to the finals and we cannot avoid that. Even if we want to. JD: Nope. DG: So everyone out there who cares about sports or doesn't get ready for the New York Knicks to take over your lives in the coming weeks. That's all I'm saying. JD: Absolutely true. DG: And you and I have a particular perspective on this because, so this is Josh Dean I am speaking with, a friend, a writer, a podcaster, founded, co-founded the narrative podcast company, Campside Media, which hired me a couple years ago to basically do a really fun show about how awful and what a total weirdo, loser the owner of the New York Knicks James Dolan is and that's what I that's what I want the world to know that this franchise is owned by someone who you might never want to get a beer with in your life. JD: Well, he doesn't drink but yes, even if he did you still wouldn't want to do it. DG: Yeah, yeah. So let's start there. I mean, why did you and Campside decided to spend so much time digging into the life of the owner of this New York Knicks franchise? JD: He's a fascinating figure. It actually kind of goes back even beyond that because I in my previous life as a magazine writer before Campside was born, I actually wrote, well a "profile." He didn't participate. A profile without participation, a reported profile about Dolan. And I didn't put the headline on it, but Bloomberg Businessweek gave it the headline is "Jim Dolan the worst owner in sports" and it was about not just the at that point— and this is you know, Knick's fans finally, we're gonna talk about how they've slayed their demons. But at that point, it was a terrible franchise. They, I believe, had the worst or the second worst record over the basically two decades leading up to when that was published. But really, it was about this man who owned the team, which is like, okay, you've got the biggest media market in the world. You've got the self-proclaimed world's most famous arena. You've got this loyal, devoted fan base. You're all set up for success, and yet this miserable man, who just refused to listen to anyone and made himself and everyone around him, including millions of New York Knicks fans, completely miserable, was owning the team. And it was just this great story. And I felt like when we started this franchise at that point called Owned, and we were like, we should kick this off with a limited series about this man who's, I mean, he's fascinating, you know? DG: And we should say he doesn't just own the Knicks. He, I mean, he owns Radio City Music Hall. He owns the fricking Sphere. I mean if you ever hear about the Sphere in Las Vegas, like which seemed like it was this sort of tragic over budget project and now people seem to love it, including me. JD: You've been there. DG: I've been there. It's great. I mean it's wonderful. But he is like this, I means is petulant child the best way to sort of describe his vibe, James Dolan? JD: Kind of, I think like he, you know, he inherited his fortune from his father as many billionaires have and the teams from his father. And you know he was obviously not always sober. I mean sobriety is a big part of his story now, but he just doesn't or didn't seem to be having any fun and he couldn't take the criticism. So yeah, petulant child, because when players, former players complained about him, he would ban them from the stadium and like disown them from the Knicks family. When journalists would write critical things he would like block them from press conferences as we found out I think Pablo Torre just did a great episode a couple weeks ago about you know, something we covered in the series but he got into a much more depth with Wired magazine. Which was the what he called the surveillance state like that MSG is like well every corner of America fully wired with cameras and microphones But like they're using it to surveil specific people enemies of the state. Which is just crazy, like, who cares? DG: Yeah. Enemies of James Dolan. I mean, it's people who have crossed him can't... JD: The Knicks state. DG: Get into it. Yeah, Madison Square Garden or anywhere. I mean, it was funny. Like I think you, I mean no offense to my own professional career, but I think one of the only reasons that you guys called me to host the show is that people involved in the basketball world were actually worried about doing a show about James Dolan in a negative way because they might never be able to go see a Knicks game or a New York Rangers game or get into the Sphere. JD: Very true. I mean, in retrospect, you were great. DG: Appreciate it. JD: I feel like you had the perfect tone, and because you didn't have a horse in the race, it's just the humor. You were able to appreciate the absurdity of it. And you did a great job. However, you're right. We first thought it should be like a basketball person, like a former player or maybe a basketball broadcaster. And we asked three or four high profile people. And they were all like, "Oh, I would love to do that. But I'd like to go to MSG again." Or, "I'd love to do that, but like I have to work with Jim Dolan"— because he is vindictive. I mean, like, well, there's so many highlights slash lowlights in the series we've made, but one of them is he literally banned what turned out to be the mom of a Girl Scout, and the Girl Scout couldn't go, not because the Girl Scouts was banned, but her mom was a lawyer who worked for a law firm, and Jim Dolan instituted a policy where if the cameras, and using facial recognition, recognized a lawyer who was involved with a lawsuit against any of his companies, then you were banned from his arenas, not just MSG, but also Radio City. So this mom is taking a Girl Scout troop to Radio City to see the Christmas Spectacular, and they don't let her in because she works for that law firm. And so the story was reported as like Girl Scout, not allowed to see The Christmas Spectacular. And he just, I think we said on the series, he just like steps on rakes repeatedly. DG: Yeah, no, I mean, and almost like he enjoys doing it or is cursed in some way. Yeah, I means, so our series was called Reign of Error. I mean is there a moment that you think stands out for people who wanna understand kind of the tragic journey recently of the New York Knicks before this, you know, sudden bright spot that speaks to what they went through, what James Dolan went through kind of the absurdity of the last 20 years in Knicks Nation. JD: I mean, there are so many. I mean I think the one that stands out to me is probably, and it's not really one moment, it's sort of a series of moments. It's like the Charles Oakley chapter of this because the last time the Knicks went to the finals was '99, so 27 years ago now. And those 90s Knicks teams, when I moved to New York in the mid 90s, like the Knick's, the city had like a Knicks fever. And that's just when the Dolans take over and Charles passes the reins to Jim. And so he's there for that 90s finals run, which includes Charles Oakley, this beloved bruiser of the 90s Knicks, who were known for fighting and being tough, just like they embodied New York City. They weren't beautiful. It wasn't beautiful basketball to watch, but it was awesome, tough. New Yorkers thought it was great, and Oakley was one of the icons of that era. And so as he retires and starts to become one of these critics of Dolan in his reign, I think, you know, one of a number of players who was willing to say, like, this team is terrible, and it's because of the guy who's running it. I mean, it's gonna be interesting whether or not the Knicks win. I wonder if they're gonna honor the '99 team in some way, the last team to go to the finals, and will Oakley not be invited? DG: I mean, maybe this is Jim Dolan's moment to kind of put all that behind him and say, I'm really enjoying this run, so I'm gonna become a nice guy and not be Mr. Vindictive. I mean success in sports has a tendency to make people forget old grievances, I guess. JD: If his PR guys or lady is any good, you would think that's a conversation they're having, which is kind of like, hey, you've got goodwill for once? Like, maybe this is a new era for you too, Jim Dolan, and let's make good with Oakley and all these people that we've had a falling out with. DG: I'm really intrigued by, I mean, I talk about New York Knicks fans as insufferable and they are, but like New York's a great sports town, but I hadn't thought about how it really is so divided. So no other sport really unifies like this. That's the difference here with basketball. JD: It's a common, yeah, it's like that's the biggest factor because you choose a side in the other sports, and it's usually the side that you were born into. It's what your dad, or in my case, I moved to New York in the 90s, and it was like the Yankees were winning all the time and people were wearing pink Yankees hats, and I'm like, okay, I'm not rooting for that team. Like, how about this bunch of losers out at Queens? They seem fun. Little did I know what I was subjecting myself to. DG: Nice. JD: But the Knicks, it was just, I was not. You know, I was new to the city in the 90s. So, and at that point, the Knicks had been good for some time. So I just kind of assumed this is how it would be. Like this team is, I mean, how could they not be? It's one of the most valuable franchises in sports. Of course they're always gonna be good. And then 20 years, and I'm watching all these, I'm sure you're seeing them too. Like all these people, like earnest on social media talking about like, I forgot what this feels like. And like, this was me in high school the last time the Knicks went into the finals. And it's like, New Yorkers even putting their edge aside for a minute and being like this, like on an emotional level is reaching me in a way that I haven't felt in so long. I mean, we can relate to that as sports fans. It's like... DG: Oh, totally. JD: We can all be cynical. And then when our team wins, we're like hugging strangers and crying over things that are upsetting our wives, right? Yeah. DG: Yeah, yeah. No, very much, we get all mushy and I'm totally here for it. It is hard to overstate how well they're playing. I mean, they're like flying right now into the finals. They're gonna be well rested. Jalen Brunson, as you said, their star, like not built like a basketball player, but kind of unstoppable when he takes over a game. JD: Yeah, and it does not look like, if you pass that guy in the street, you would not think. I mean, he's a little fire, like a fire hose, like plug. What are those things called? Fire hydrant, like he's just stout and not that tall, but they're fun, I have to say. Because the 90s Knicks weren't, I mean they were fun in their own way. They just kicked the crap out of you and they would like win brutal defensive wars. But this team is 11 games in a row. They've won almost every game by like 20 points. I mean, they are blowing teams off the floor. I'm very curious to see what happens, because I think both Oklahoma City and San Antonio are very good defensive teams. Both of them also have very good offenses, which is not to say that I don't think the Knicks can win. I think they very well could. I watched the first quarter last night. I was just like, whoa. Everybody can shoot suddenly. No one is missing. They're hustling. They're playing defense. They're rebounding. DG: Oh, in that Game Four went against Cleveland. Yeah, that was crazy. I mean, they're just, they look unstoppable. They're also healthy. Like, and healthy is so important during the playoffs. I feel like, you know, either San Antonio or Oklahoma City, like fully healthy and cruising, maybe better than the Knicks, but like if the Knicks knock on wood for them, you know can stay healthy through the finals. I don't know. It's hard to see them at least not being right there. JD: It feels like one of those runs. I mean, there's so much wrapped up in it, because New Yorkers, as you said, like everyone's gonna be sick of this, because all you're gonna hear about now for the next 10 days, or whenever people hear this, however many days leads up to the final, is like, this, like, enough, guys. Like, I get it. They're good, and you're excited, and the whole country is looking at New York. But like, they just, they do feel like they've got, not just a chance, like if they play the way they've been playing, they could beat anybody. DG: Then the question is like Knicks fans traveling. Like, I mean, as a Sixers fan, I'm furious because they took over the arena in Philadelphia during that series. I mean like Cleveland, I think with some like not small percentage of fans in Cleveland were Knicks' fans. Like will they travel to either San Antonio or Oklahoma City? Probably the answer is yes. JD: I think they will. I mean, Chalamet was like courtside for every game with Tracy Morgan and Spike Lee. They were all there. I mean I have a feeling those are smaller. Oklahoma City feels like one of those small die hard fan bases where they can maybe police the tickets a little bit together because it's not a mass market. I feel like that's a real die hard. They sell that place out and it's loud. It might be harder. But there's a lot of rich New York Knicks fans, a lot celebrities who, I don't know, if Chalamet. I like to think I would say no, but if you're a ticket holder and Chalamet calls you up and offers you like $50 grand, you're like, well, I could take. DG: Well, now that you mention it, well, let me, before I let you go, what is the name, speaking of another very successful, well, another very successful, I can't call the Knicks that, a very successful basketball dynasty, the Boston Celtics, what does the name Robert Parrish mean to you? [MUSIC] JD: I mean, I grew up watching those Celtic teams, I think. I mean one of the greatest centers of all time, why do you ask? DG: We're about to hear from him. We're gonna listen to a long conversation about him and with him and his career And I'm just pretty excited about about it. So wanted to get your thoughts But yeah, I agree one of the one of best but I'm kind of a complicated personal story that we'll we'll hear about coming up JD: I don't know it, so I look forward to hearing it. I feel like those, his Celtics teams, like the Knicks, they had that Knicks muscle and heart, and he was, I'd love to hear more about him, because all I know him is the guy on the court who was bad as hell. DG: Yeah, feared. Josh Dean, writer, founder of the narrative podcast company Campside Media Which I was lucky enough to do a show with you guys about the owner of the New York Knicks James Dolan his team about ready to go into the NBA finals for better or worse Josh, thank you for being here JD: Let's go Knicks, but not you, Jim Dolan. Yeah. Thanks, man. DG: Well put. Alright, Robert Parrish interview with him coming up next on Sports in America. MIDROLL DG: Hey everybody, just a heads up that this episode contains discussion and descriptions of physical assault. [MUSIC] The 1980s NBA was rugged and hostile. It had some pro wrestling to it. Hard fouls, punches thrown, no load management, no ticky-tack whistles, no friend circles across rival teams. The champion caliber Boston Celtics knew they had to be physical to succeed. So they embraced a kind of mean-spiritedness. Larry Bird talked trash, Kevin McHale clothesline people. Dennis Johnson suffocated guards. In the middle of the lineup was Robert Parrish. Comparatively quiet, unreadable, almost stoic. Which is why this moment shocked everybody. ANNOUNCER: This play by Darren Daye it doesn't fall the tip by Parrish. He can't get it to fall and Parrish takes Laimbeer to the ground with a right forearm. The security guards are out on the floor right now, too. DG: Game Five of the 1987 Eastern Conference finals. The Celtics and the bad boys, Detroit Pistons, already hated each other. Bill Laimbeer, maybe the most aggravating player of the era, starts leaning on Parrish, throwing shots, testing him, possession after possession. And then all of a sudden, Parrish snaps. He turned and uncorked two straight punches to Laimbeer's head. No speech, no theatrics, just a message. In another era, it might have defined him. In Boston, it almost validated him. Because those Celtics believed intimidation was part of winning. You didn't back down, you didn't get pushed around. ROBERT PARISH: It's just something that had been building and building and building over the years. He elbowed me in my throat and I told him to keep your elbows down. And he told me go F myself. And I just, the one and only time I lost control in a game. Cause I feel like he was trying to hurt me or provoke me, which he did. [MUSIC] DG: The outburst was startling, but maybe not entirely out of nowhere. For nearly two decades, Robert Parrish built a reputation as the steady force in the middle of the lineup. Durable, unreadable, relentlessly consistent. While flashier stars grabbed the headlines, Parrish just kept winning. Nine-time All-Star, four-time NBA champion, the silent anchor of one of the greatest dynasties the sport has ever seen. They call him "The Chief," and it fit. Calm expression, ruthless efficiency, endless stamina. In an era defined by bruising centers and personal rivalries, Parrish thrived in the NBA's culture of intimidation and controlled violence. He recently wrote a memoir called "The Chief: The Story of the Boston Celtics' Most Enigmatic Icon." Maybe he chose enigmatic because the longer you look at Parrish's story, the harder it becomes to separate composure from suppression, toughness from anger. Beneath the image of basketball's Iron Man were flashes of something darker, but whatever it was that fueled his game was built to last. Could I start our conversation with a number? ROBERT PARISH: You sure can. DG: 1,611. RP: Stamina, endurance, reliability, and I stayed healthy. DG: You stayed healthy. So that's the number of regular season games you played in the NBA, which is still the record in the history of the league, right? RP: So far. Someone is gonna break it. DG: So far. RP" Yeah, someone is gonna to break it DG: Well, since our conversation someone did break it and that would be a lesser-known player named LeBron James, who played in his 1,612th game on May 21st, 2026. But Robert Parrish set the standard for nearly 30 years Learning the value of consistency in his earliest days playing basketball, which did not come naturally at first So I grew up a Sixers fan, but through the 80s, obviously spent more time during late playoff time, watching the likes of you and Larry Bird and Kevin McHale and, um, you know, your legendary runs against the Lakers and felt like I knew a lot of your story, but did not realize that basketball came to you a little later than I would have expected. I mean, you're, you were growing up in Louisiana and you're not playing until— what, junior high school? RP: Junior high school, yeah, we played all the sports except for basketball. And it looked like my first day on the basketball court organized basketball, it looked like I had never touched the basketball before. (Laughs) Yes it did. DG: It didn't come natural? RP: No, no, not at all. My first two years trying to play organized basketball was a learning experience, to state it mildly. I couldn't etch it, I couldn't hold it, I couldn't dribble it. All I could do was look at it. Enough of that, I'll tell you a funny story real quick. Third day of practice, someone threw me a full court pass. I was running the basket by myself. Face level. Ball went right through my hands, hit me in my side of my face, my eye socket, so I got a black eye. DG: Oh, God. RP: So when I went home, I had a black eyed puffiness around my left eye socket. So my parents was on the verge of grounding me and reprimanding me because they thought I got into a fight at school. They didn't realize I had kissed a spalling basketball. (Laughs) DG: Did you explain what had happened and did that get you out of the punishment? RP: I did, my father would get ready to put hands on me. I had to let him know that I was not fighting because they did not condone being a distraction, starting trouble at school. So that was against their rules and how you should carry and govern yourself. DG: Yeah, I mean it sounds like you were growing up— you were in a high school that you know had had recently been Integrated. I mean race is sort of a context for so many things in our country at that point. But I'm interested in your parents. I mean, it sounds they were real progressives In those days and really encouraging you just to be welcoming of of anyone. RP: When you think about when they were, the era that they were raised in, born in, raised up, you would think that they would be prejudice, racist, whatever you want to call it, whatever label you want put on it. They were not. They encouraged us to embrace all race, religion, and all of that because they said that we all the same color inside. And no one is better than you. Don't look down on anyone, especially when it looked like I was gonna be a star, like my ninth grade in junior high school. One day, everything just changed, athletically. All of a sudden, I was a basketball player. It was almost like, what happened? All of the sudden, had to play the game. Then I started to understand it, get a feel for it. And when I started getting a lot of attention from the media. That's one thing that my parents constantly preached. Don't ever look down on anyone. You're not better, you're not bigger than anyone else. Treat everybody like you want to be treated. And for them, and not to mention a lot of my college teammates didn't look like me. They looked more like you. Or they was mixed, as my father used to say, "had a little cream in the coffee." That my father used to say. But my parents always embraced my teammates. Never tried to drive a wedge between my friends if they didn't look like me. They embraced everyone. Even when I dated outside of my race, my parents never looked down on that, never said anything negative about my choice of companions, never ever, at least not publicly. Now they may have been, you know, when they laying in bed having pillow talk or whatever, they may be talking trash then. DG: You can't vouch for what they were saying about you then. (Laughs) RP: Never in front of us, never ever. They always encouraged, "Just because they don't look like you, so what" and I respect that. DG: They sound like cool parents. RP: I would say it once again, when you think about the era that my parents were raised in, when they were considered second or third class citizens, and for them not to be racist or prejudiced, whatever you want to call it, that craziness, they should be applauded for that, in my opinion. DG: So what was that moment when it clicked that you felt like, you know, no longer the guy who got, you know , a black eye from a ball that you missed and more like, Oh my God, this, this could be my thing. RP: I never thought of it in terms of making a living at it. I just thought that I would just be a good basketball player. I never though or envisioned I would be a great ball player one day. I just wanted to be good at it because I was so bad at it!That was the only thing that didn't come natural, only sport. I was good at football, baseball, basketball, no. I was a above average student in the classroom. So academics was not a problem. Basketball? Oh. (Laughs). DG: It's just amazing to hear you say this, like that that was the sport that came hardest to you, which, which is why you became so determined. [MUSIC] DG: In junior high, Robert's coach saw a raw talent worth developing, so he used some old school techniques to help his young center form good habits on the court. So you were perfecting that like high arch jump shot that we saw later, early on, like that was the first thing you were really? RP: My junior high school coach was like 5'2". So he took the handle out of a push broom and held it up, had me shooting over that handle because my shot did not have any elevation on, no arc, no elevation. It was a line drive. And he always told me one day, you're gonna play against someone your size and you're not gonna be able to get your shot off. You're gonna get your shots blocked off there. And so that's why I have a high-arching projectory on my shot. DG: Wow, so you're perfecting that before your growth spurt. You're perfect that high arc before you... RP: Yeah. DG: Once you get tall, you're like, now watch this. RP: Oh, that was awkward, too, by the way. I don't know how many times I knocked something over, reaching for something because my depth perception was all off my arms, didn't realize how long my arms were, constantly bumping my head, because I didn't stoop low enough or bend over far enough, kept clipping the top of my head. DG: How fast did you grow? How fast was that? I mean, you went from 5'2" to like 6', what, like 6'8"? RP: Over the course of three summers, I went from a little under 6' to 6'8" and then the summer after my freshman year in junior high school, I grew three more inches. I went from 6'8 or 6'9" to 7'. DG: That's amazing. RP: And then it stopped. Thank God for that. I finally stopped growing because it would drive my parents insane because they couldn't keep up with the (Laughs) keeping clothes that fit on my long body. DG: By his senior year, Robert Parish wasn't just a basketball prospect anymore. He was carrying the expectations of a future star while already stepping into the responsibilities of adulthood. Recruiters were calling. His team was chasing a championship, and at home, Parish was learning to be a dad. So you get to senior year, you had so much going on. I mean, you're being recruited, you take your team to the championship. You also, I think, had your first daughter at that point? RP: Yeah. DG: How are you managing all of that as a high school student? RP: My parents. DG: Your parents. RP: My parents picked up the slack. My parents and this young lady I was dating at the time, her parents supported us, did the babysitting, which allowed us really to pursue the academic part of it and me to have an athletic career, chase that basketball, because my parents stepped up and pitched in. They were very understanding about that, you know, me being a young father. And teaching me to be responsible. That's one of the reasons why I didn't leave the state of Louisiana when I chose the college. DG: You chose Centenary instead because it was closer to home and you could be near your family, near your daughter. RP: I was at home, a small school, and I told myself if I was going to go to a small school, I want to go a place where I could create my own identity, my own legacy, make my own mark. And not to mention the coaching staff was promoting and pushing education. And that was something very important to my parents. I was the first one in my family to get a college degree, which made my parents— as proud as they were of me athletically, they was exceptional— matter of fact, one of the few times that my pops gave me a hug. My pops believe in tough love. You know, he don't show a lot of emotions. And for him to hug me, I was like, pops, you okay? Everything all right? DG: Makes it more meaningful, though, I bet. RP: Because he, that wasn't him. No, he wasn't a hugger, you know, wasn't, "I love you," was none of that. My pops believes in tough love. Period. DG: That hug was the day you graduated from college? RP: Yes! Excuse my language. F'd me up. DG: That's really, it's really powerful. I can understand that. RP: I didn't know how to respond to that. I didn't know whether to hug him back. I didn't know whether say thank you pops. You know, I didn't know what to do. Cause that was so unlike my father, so uncharacteristic of my father to show emotions like that. I was like, man, who knew? I didn't know he had a soft side, to be honest. DG: When Robert Parrish entered the NBA with the Golden State Warriors, the talent was obvious, but the fit never quite was. Golden State in the 1970s was a franchise searching for direction, and Parrish often found himself caught between coaches and systems that never fully unlocked his game. DG: So you started your career with the Golden State Warriors and it sounds like it, it just wasn't a fit. And I guess I wonder like, what does that feel like? And how close were you to maybe just even giving up basketball? RP: Talent, that was the problem with the Warriors. We didn't have enough talent. That's why we'd be losing every night. Management got rid of all the talent. Rick Barry, Jamaal Wilkes, Gus Williams, Jack Johnson, you know, all the ballers, Phil Smith. When it came up for a new contract, let all of them go. And so how can we win? You know, we're young and inexperienced. Other than Sonny Parker and myself, because I was the Warriors' first pick in '76 and Sonny Parker was the second pick. I don't want to sound too negative, but Sonny and I were playing with some underachievers and that's putting it mildly. And you cannot win in the NBA unless you got talent. You don't have talent, you not winning. I don't care how good the coaching is, if you don't talent on the professional level. You're not gonna be successful. DG: Did you think about giving it up? RP: Well, yeah, there's no way I thought I would play as long as I played. I knew I would not have played as long as I play had I stayed with the Warriors. I would have made 10 years because I just lost an appetite for it. First of all, I never lost that much in my life. And my teammates had their own agenda. They didn't understand the benefits and the rewards of playing together, playing as a team. DG: By the summer of 1980, Parrish looked like a talented player stranded in the wrong situation. In four seasons with the Golden State Warriors, he'd shown flashes; athleticism, touch, endurance, but the losses piled up. The direction was unclear, and few people saw superstardom coming. Then a trade changed everything. [MUSIC] DG: So, how different was the experience when you got to Boston? It sounds like it was night and day; it just clicked. RP: Oh, I often describe it like this. I went from, excuse my language. "From \[EXPLETIVE\] to sugar." DG: (Laughs) Love that image RP: Excuse my language (Laughs). DG: No, you're good. RP: That's how I would describe it. No question. The outhouse to the penthouse. That's how I would describe. DG: Why did Boston feel like a sugary penthouse? RP: Because first of all, the way they approached it, they had the correct mentality. Training camp. You can tell we're about winning. And you can tell that. The vibe, everybody giving off. Competitive, oh! Practices were competitive. Our practices were game-like. Playoff games. We practiced every day when there was not a game. And it was playoff atmosphere. And the coaches just sucked on the whistle. They didn't call no foul, unless of course, you know, you foul someone a little too hard and it looks like somebody might get hurt or a fight might break out. That's the only time the coaches blow the whistle, they let us play, which toughens you up mentally and physically. Also, it does wonders for your physical fitness. Keep you in shape. DG: I can imagine tough practices like that. RP: Oh, that's why we was tearing it up. Some of our practices were better than some of the opponents we were playing against. DG: (Laughs) That says a lot about the team you're playing for. RP: Yeah, that says a lot. DG: Yeah. Coming up, we’ll have more from our conversation with Robert Parish\[MIDROLL\]DG: Welcome back to Sports in America and let’s get right back into our conversation with Robert Parish. When Parish got to Boston, he settled in and began to truly build his Hall of Fame resume. It’s also where he earned one of the game’s iconic nicknames. When did you first get the nickname the Chief? RP: That happened my first year in Boston. I was talking about the movie, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" which stars Jack Nicholson. DG: It's so good, like it's still one of my favorites. RP: Only time I really said something because whenever you go to a new team, normally you're trying to fit in, you don't wanna cause any unnecessary distraction or emotions. You wanna get along, you wanna fit in. You wanna ingratiate yourself with your new teammates. You don't want to carry yourself like you all that. Even if you are all of that, you don't wanna carry yourself like that until you get comfortable with everybody in the environment. So the only time I had something to say when I was talking about, "Man, you got to see this movie. 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.'" So my teammate Cedric Maxwell saw the movie and he said, "You got a similar demeanor— you give off that vibe like the Chief. Only time you got something to say is when you talk about that movie." Other than that, I never talk. And then Cedrick's like, "You've got all of us fooled. We didn't think you'd talk. Just like that character in 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest,' the Chief." DG: It's that scene with the chewing gum, right? Where Jack Nicholson says... RP: Yeah exactly! DG: Everyone thought that you were mute. And he's like a gentle giant who is the Chief. Yeah. RP: Yeah! Then he said something. It just messed everybody up. DG: Yeah. JACK NICHOLSON IN "ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST": Well, why you sly son of a \[EXPLETIVE\] Chief. Ha! RP: Everybody looked at him like, "Oh, he can talk. He actually talks!" Yes, DG: Do you like that image as kind of the, the quiet guy who's always sort of, you know, who waits for those sparing moments to actually say something. RP: That's me by nature. I'm not much of a people person. I consider myself to be a loner. I know I give off that vibe as being distant and dismissive. Cause I really, I won't say I do not like people. I just prefer not to be around people. Cause I think saying I don't like them.... DG: You seem one-on-one like an incredibly affable like person who likes chatting. I mean, that's what's so so interesting RP: I prefer not to. I prefer my own company. DG: (Laughs) I'm forcing you into this right now. RP: Yeah, I'm being honest. I prefer my own company. DG: (Laughs) Yeah. [MUSIC] DG: Is there one memory from those great Celtics runs that stands out most to you? RP: I would have to say my first year in Boston made my first All-Star game that was memorable. My relationships with my teammates, I can honestly say that I didn't have a bad teammate while I was in Boston. I'm proud of that. And I'm also proud of the fact that all my teammates bought into the philosophy; We playing for the name in front of the jersey, not the name of back of the jersey. And if anybody could have been arrogant and self-centered, it was Larry Bird, because he was that good. And he was just the opposite. All about team, all about being inclusive, all about sharing the success in the basketball. DG: You know, when your Celtics teammates talk about you, they, I mean, they just heap praise, best teammate, consistent defense, your high arc jump shot unstoppable. How do you describe yourself like in that Game Six, when you were not able to play, what, what were the Celtics missing? RP: Defensive presence. Scoring, I always pride myself on being a two-way player. That's why I respect Kareem, Russell, Chamberlain, Moses Malone, you know, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing. All of them were two-way players. They were strong on both ends of the court. And I always prided myself. I always told myself, I don't ever want to be the reason why we lost. And I feel like throwing a punch at Laimbeer put us in jeopardy of losing that series, even though we was able to overcome my misstep or my transgression, whatever you want to call it. But I feel like I put my teammates in jeopardy because of that. And that's something that I pride myself on not doing. You don't ever wanna be the reason why your team lost, that you can help it. But there are times when you're just not gonna have it, There are some nights where you just don't have it for whatever reason. Your game's just out of sync, out of sorts. And that's when, you know, you put your team, really put your teammates in harm's way because you're not doing your part. You always want to do your job. And I always tell the young players and the rookies, I always told them this. Don't ever give your coach a reason not to play you. Never ever. You don't ever want there to be the reason why you didn't play because you not doing you job. And that's the advice I always give all the young players that will join our team. I always told all of them the same thing, stay ready, be ready. [MUSIC\ DG: For years, that toughness was celebrated. In Boston, it became mythology. The bruises, the fights, the refusal to bend. And Parrish was central to that identity. But there's a key difference between aggression inside the lines and violence away from the game. And as the spotlight on Parrish's career grew brighter, so did questions about his life off the court. Robert, in this book, you get incredibly vulnerable at moments about your entire life, and in that 1987 run, you guys beat Detroit, you end up in the finals against the Lakers, your big rivals. You decided to address one of the hardest moments in your life, talking about an encounter you had with your ex-wife, your then-wife Nancy Saad, in your hotel room in Los Angeles. I mean, she accused you of assaulting her... RP: I did. DG: And putting your hands on her throat in the hallway. RP: I assaulted her. I did. I never, I never walked that back, David. I just give you a little background. I had a friend in my room, female friend. We were sitting around talking. Nancy knocks on the door. I go to the door and say, yes, what is it? First of all, I don't know why she showed up because we were separated. DG: You were separated at that point. RP: She was living on the West Coast. I'm living back on the East Coast. I don't know why she showed up other than to start some trouble. But it's just my assessment. So she tried to walk through me, into the room to see who was in the room with me. And that's when, you can tell when you tired of someone because you don't have patience for them. So she basically pushed me out of the way. So I grabbed, I wrapped my hand around her throat and pushed her back out of her door. So, I assaulted her, because anytime— if you and I are in a heated argument and I just put my hands on your shoulder, that's assault. So I did assault her, I never denied that. DG: What's your message, what lessons do you take and what's you message to all of us about how to better handle a moment like that? RP: Do not get caught up in the moment. Harm yourself or try to calm yourself. I allowed my blood pressure to get elevated because I'm just tired of her. You know, she asked for a divorce and then she's doing everything she can not to cooperate. I don't know how many back and forth we went before she finally signed the agreement. The judge had to threaten to hold her in contempt of court before she signed the final agreement. You know, she just looked for ways to piss me off. And that's the one time that I allowed her to piss me off and I chalked it up to, David, I was just tired of her. That's what it boils down to. And I knew I was wrong. And like I said before, I do not condone men putting their hands on women under any circumstances. DG: You know, sometimes there's a power dynamic that even, even if someone is behaving in a terrible way, it's like, you know, the, just the physical, the physical presence that you have. RP: You shouldn't allow yourself to get caught up in to that. See, that's on me. I allowed her to provoke me. DG: Sounds like you're a guy who's not like overly worried about managing how people see you. Like you're like, you can judge me. This is how I feel, and you're okay with that. RP: That's why I wrote the book, to give them an inside view of me as a person. Like I said, they know about me, the athlete. They know that I am an accomplished athlete. They know about that. I wanna give them a window into who and what I am. And since I was being petty, I'll be the first to admit that, being that my ex-wife got everybody thinking that I'm a woman beater. Oh, I took it personal. I want to shine a light on what happened at the hotel, I want people to know the truth. DG: And it sounds like even if you don't have a lot of respect for the person, you still regret some of your actions that night. RP: Oh yeah, I regret it. I should never, David, I should have never put hands on my ex-wife. Never, ever should I have put hands of her. Like I said, the prudent and correct thing to do, call hotel security. And that incident would have never happened. I'm at fault. I'd be the first to say that. I was wrong. You don't never put your hands on a woman. [MUSIC] DG: These days, Robert Parrish represents the NBA as one of its elder statesmen, an ambassador for the league and for a generation that prided itself on durability, physicality, and winning above everything else. When he's gotten the chance, he's been pretty outspoken about what he sees as a different mentality in today's NBA. You had some interesting observations about the current NBA in the book, saying that you see some teams that don't seem like they actually care about being winning organizations. I'm curious, like what exactly you're seeing and why it strikes you that way? RP: Because too many teams are content with just making the playoffs. You know, they're content with being a perennial playoff team. Playoff is the beginning. If you're not in it to win it, why are you in it, David? Your pursuit, your focus, your goal should be on winning the championship. That's why I have respect for franchises like Miami, Lakers, Celtics, and now Oklahoma, first-class organization that's run the right way. They are about winning the championship. It's not a success if you come up short and don't win it. And most organizations, they're just content. Well, we made the playoffs, made the first round. If I was a season ticket holder, I would raise holy hell because you're selling everybody short. It's more to it than just making the playoffs. How you gonna be proud of that? You just made the playoffs. No, you got to be more ambitious than that. DG: I want to finish by just asking, I mean, you've, you know, you've written a memoir now, and anyone who writes a memoir has to be kind of thinking about legacy questions. Like, what do you want your legacy in, in the basketball world and, and the world in general to be? RP: Excuse my language once again. DG: No problem. RP: I'm going to quote the legendary Lawrence Taylor. I was a bad mother \[EXPLETIVE\]. (Laughs) That was what Mr. Taylor said he wanted his legacy to be. And I was that on both ends of the court. Offensively and defensively. And I know that for a fact because my teammates have told me that. Yeah, and that's how I want to be remembered. "Robert 'the Chief' Parish was a bad mother \[EXPLETIVE\]." DG: Well, enough said there. (Laughs) Robert, what a pleasure talking to you. I really appreciate it. RP: Thank you. You made it easy. I like the vibe you're giving off. You know, you should be a TV host somewhere. DG: Wow, thank you. RP: Because you make your guests comfortable, you making me feel at home. We have a rapport like we've been talking to each other for years. And this is the first time you and I have interacted with each other and you made it incredibly easy and comfortable. And I wanna thank you and appreciate it. May you have continued success going forward. DG: Thank you Robert. That all means a lot. I truly appreciate that. RP: I mean that man. Good luck to you. [MUSIC] DG: Next time, on Sports in America… MICHAEL COOPER: You look at a guy scoring 20, 20-plus points a game, you look at a guy getting 18 rebounds a game. All I was trying to do was stop them other people from doing it. DG: The people who get the most attention in the sports world are usually the flashy players. Michael Cooper was not one of them. MC: I just had a passion to win, and I wanted to win, and I was going to do everything I could. But you have to win by scoring the basketball, and I was surrounded by a lot of scorers. So I wasn't going to be denied for my little role, I was gonna push those guys to be a bigger role. DG: He was a killer defender in the ‘80s — a terror to go up against on the court. His tenacious defense helped earn the Lakers five championships. MC: I was so insecure that I wouldn't be drafted that I didn't go watch the draft because it was like, okay, if I didn't get drafted wouldn't hurt my feelings, because I didn't get to see it. DG: How Michael Cooper turned a behind-the-scenes role into one worthy of a highlight reel. That’s next time, on Sports in America. [MUSIC] DG: This is Sports in America. I'm your host, David Greene. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our talent booker is Britt Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeartRadio app, you know, wherever you get your podcasts. And we also want to hear from you. How about you drop us a line? You can write us at sportsinamerica@whyy.org. That's sportsinamerica@whyy.org. Thanks everybody, and we'll see you next time for Sports in America.