Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Summer Series Gems (January - April 2024)

Transcript

What I've Learnt - Summer Series Gems (January - April 2024) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, in the habit revolution, there's a touch of love, betrayal, struggle, triumph, humor, and warmth.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a dear friend, a pocket-sized habit coach, ready to guide the reader on their journey to a better life.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: And on that note, I'd like to welcome Dr.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Gina Cleo to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so thrilled to have you join us.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thanks for having me.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's so good to be here.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Pleasure.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there's so much to talk about.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know where to begin, but let's talk about obviously the thing on everyone's mind is the way that you talk about very openly the infidelity that you were confronted with and how that has shaped your journey.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because tell our tell our listeners, three years ago you discovered your husband, who you thought was one of the good guys, as often we do, was actually cheating on you.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um as a behavioral scientist, you were very aware of subtle change, just subtle changes in connectional behavior, but and you wondered how you missed it.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to me a little bit about that, that incredible.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think we all have a heave when we hear those stories because we know lots of people that have been, I suppose it's sort of like being a victim of a trauma, really.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a trauma, absolutely.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: So my ex and I were together for six years, and I was crazy about this guy.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, his friends would say to me, Oh, Gina, he just worships the ground you walk on.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: We were that couple that, you know, people would say, I want a relationship like yours.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't just from the outside.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: We truly had such a beautiful connection and we worked on our relationship.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: We'd go to couples therapy, we we had the same love language, which was quality time, and we just did all that stuff together.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it was COVID time, and things started to feel different.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I noticed that things felt different.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: But he would say to me, I think I'm suffering from depression.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so whenever there was behavior that was a little bit odd or, you know, something I'd want to question, it would be put under this, you know, this rug of I have depression.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: So of course I don't want to sleep with you, or of course I am really distant when I come home, or of course I'm being crabby.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I learned to just sort of just sit back and support him and do whatever we needed to do to keep the relationship, you know, steady and together and to get his mental health better.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then, yeah, when I realized that he was actually living this whole double life and this had gone on for at least a year, we'd only been married for six months at the time.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember sitting him down a couple of weeks before our wedding, and I said, if there's anything you need to let me know, do it now because I don't want to marry someone and then find out all this stuff later.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you say to me, we'll work through it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: What literally, whatever you say, we will work through it.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I just want to know I'm going into this with a person I think you are.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he just looked at me straight in the face and said, You know everything about me.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: This, oh, like we're fine.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: And um that's extraordinary.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's just blatant lying to your face.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: And totally how pathetic of you, though, to ask that question.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's almost like you unconsciously or intuitively, maybe.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's just interesting.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, so so then so he looked at you quite bluntly and made it clear that or implied there was no issue and that it was He's like, you know, everything about me, you know, I can't wait to marry you.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And he was really the one pushing for the marriage.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was very like, you know, our friends and family can't even be here because of restrictions.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we wait?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, No, I want to make you my wife, blah, blah.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So he was really pushing for it.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I found out that he was, you know, he was into brothels and prostitutes and living this complete double life, it actually shook me.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was I hyperventilated, I fainted, I had a proper shell shock traumatic moment where the poor thing, it's just horrific.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's the worst possible feeling when you feel like you've let somebody into your intimate space and they've betrayed you.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, Deb.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, how did you discover this?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: How did you find out?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was yeah, I was in the kitchen and I was having a particularly lonely Saturday.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he was having a really sort of distant day.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: He was out in the yard and he said, Oh, I'm just gonna go down to Bunnings.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in the kitchen doing some baking, and his computer was on the bench.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I just flicked it open to look at a recipe.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And as I flicked it open, his eye messages were coming through, and there was a live text exchange happening between him and a prostitute that he was just about to meet with.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And she had sent images of herself.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: He responded like, mm, yum, and then they discussed money.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: He said to her that he was five minutes away, and this is all happening live in front of me.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And hence why I hyperventilated and fainted.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't believe it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I came back to, I looked through the rest of his messages and found hundreds more.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: I found that he was on Tinder, that so he was dating, or at least on a dating site.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: He was watching a lot of pornography, just a lot of things that I he would say to me how against it he was.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I volunteered from a very young age with women who were stuck in the sex trade.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's something I'm extremely passionate about.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was the head of student well-being at Bond University, and part of my role was to work with victims of sexual misconduct.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And for him to be going to these particular places, establishments that were specifically hiring women who were trafficked into Australia with it felt like a personal attack because I would donate to these companies that rescue these women.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And in the same week, from the same bank account, he would be funding the industry.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my, and that's also your joint account.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: It is literally like fact is stranger than fiction.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: No one, I mean, you know, there was nothing that you could have done yourself to know or protect yourself from this insidious behavior.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's really nothing because he was excellent at gaslighting and had a had a reason for everything.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he would often stop in these places on the way home from work and or on his lunch breaks, and he'd say something like, Oh, the traffic was really bad, or I had to get fuel, or and I wouldn't question why you 15 minutes late, you know.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, why would you?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, exactly.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: At some point you have to trust, yes.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't have married him if I didn't trust him.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, and also because he was so affirming of the relationship, the love bombing, like every day, like I can't wait to come home to you.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love you so much, constantly telling me how beautiful I was.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I had no reason to doubt that anything, I could never have imagined this would happen.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, what happened?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: It sort of took it to a next level where I thought my brain just said to me, if you're wrong about this, what else are you wrong about?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it must be everything.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you had said to me, I would say, I'll give you a million dollars, the fact that he is not playing up.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's no way I'd give you a billion dollars.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: You were completely that that's that's the that's the inverted, commas sort of gift of these people, the the capacity to complete and utter duplicity.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean I'm so intelligent and beautiful, and I'm like, how could anyone do this to another person?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I grew up in a very sheltered home, and in my family, there was always honesty, always high levels of integrity where you know we have faith and we believe in a God that, you know, like we just wouldn't do things.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: A part of me actually believed that some people are just simply not capable of doing such heinous acts.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was part of my naivety.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: But it it really shook me in a way of what else am I wrong about?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it became a point where I doubted that my parents were my parents, that the sky was blue, that we should really drive on, you know, left side of the road in Australia.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I struggled with everything to the point where leaving my own house was terrifying because I couldn't be sure about anything.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing felt safe anymore.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: I a hundred percent understand why you would feel that.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a similar experience, slightly different context, but I had a very similar experience in a relationship, and I really understand the idea of how agrophobia and that idea that, well, if I just stay inside safe, because everything that you believe is, isn't, you you become it's literally like the rugs pulled out from under you.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there are many listeners who could relate to this notion that when you're betrayed by somebody or when you think you're betrayed by somebody, it's like I call it shadow boxing, because you don't actually know what you're you know, there's a shadow of something that you can't put your finger on and you can't understand, and you can't fight it, but you know exactly, yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so therefore you feel this constant sense, which you're describing so beautifully, that sense of my world is not what I thought it was.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Completely.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I had actually written a whole chapter on this story in my book originally, which um was pulled just due to risk of defamation because there aren't many people with his particular profession that live in a particular place.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it was pulled.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: But how I described it in that chapter the first time was it's like I woke up in a war zone.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was asleep and I woke up and now I'm in the middle of a war and I'm in the front line, and there's all these attacks coming at me.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've just woken up, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I can't fight back.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're not equipped.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can't yeah, I can't surrender.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea what to do.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so you just feel like entirely lost in this space.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the hardest part of this journey was actually feeling estranged from myself, was no longer trusting myself, no longer being able to trust my own judge of character, which we put so much faith on in our day-to-day life, and therefore being terrified about talking or meeting anybody who wasn't in my inner circle.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think just it's it's really as we described, it's a trauma.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like a trauma as if you've been in a war.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: And also that person's been inside inside a very private, trusted space and betrayed it so dramatically.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting your chapter was pulled and it wasn't allowed to.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is there any way that they could have hidden who it was?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because really it's quite an important story to tell because it it actually is the foundation of much of your growth and your development and your book and the way that you've developed this whole extraordinary, I suppose, skill set that I know is very important to you.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting that they did that.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: Is it was that something that you challenged or did you accept?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I did challenge it.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they wanted the story in the book, and I wrote it with so much vulnerability.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: It took me a really long time to get the words on paper because it was really traumatic reliving it and cathartic at the same time.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was actually wonderful to be able to put such detail into the description because it helped me heal from it as well.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I know that every day I would write, you know, I'd end up in tears and it was really difficult.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I did think it was important.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And why they I guess there's lawyers and then there's publishers and there's authors, and we all have different agendas.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I can appreciate why they pulled it.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the details would completely destroy someone's life if they were, if someone was to find out the truth, all the detail, they would never get married again.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they would never have a family.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I was like, I'm really tired of protecting perpetrators and their reputation.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Telling your story, as you say, and I this is what we do on this podcast, is really, really important from a cathartic perspective, as you've outlined.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: But it's also about the universality of that experience and people going, wait, that happened to me too.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, oh, I'm not alone in that experience.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: And we know how critical that is in helping others, I suppose, go on the journey themselves and know that there is some light at the end of the tunnel.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's very much what you did.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: How long did this take for you to?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, I have to ask, did you confront him and how did that story go?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us that.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: So after I saw everything, I took screenshots of everything so I can hold on to it.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I sent it all to my mom in case, you know, he took my phone or something.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I um messaged him.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I gave him, you know, he booked in for 15 minutes.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: So after that time, I messaged him and I said, Can you please come home?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's something I need to talk to you about.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he's he just said, Yep, I'm on my way.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: He came home and I was very calmly just sat on the kitchen bench and I just said to him, Is there something you need to tell me?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he denied.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Have you had any special treatments lately or met any special people lately?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Then I proceeded to show him the images that I had discovered and the text message exchanges.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I gone through our bank accounts and he'd taken cash out.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he would always say it was for work and he was going to be reimbursed and his wage and it didn't, and I'd chase it up and just all these sorts, everything started falling into place.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the the images and the text message would align with the dates that these transactions were happening, and so everything was falling into place, and he denied, denied, denied.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Still denied, still denied.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: The hubris of that man.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, but I can feel myself anxious listening to you because I'm on this story with you, as I'm sure our listeners are, because the hubris of him denying this still.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's wild because the man I knew was the most gentle, kind, soft, loving, innocent.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, his friends would call him vanilla because he was so predictable.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: He just he would eat the same thing, do the same thing.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: He was just so calm and kind.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: He oozed kindness.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And there was so a part of me believed him.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I but also I wanted to believe him.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: And why wouldn't you?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I wouldn't.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't handle the fact that my world was torn apart like this, that that this betrayal was real.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so that really messed with my mind.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I have all this hard evidence, but here's my husband looking me in the eye and saying, I love you way too much to do this.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: What happened was I messaged them, I had the intention to go, and then I stood outside and I was like, no way, I loved Gina way too much, I'd never go in.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's what he said to me.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I there was I was oscillating in and out of believing him and in and out of, you know, I already started the PTSD, these the flashbacks of the photos that I would see, and my brain was fact-finding intensely, like going back into every interaction, questioning every moment that we had had together.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next day, we slept in separate rooms that night.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't sleep.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I wailed.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't even crying.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was on my hands and knees wailing all night.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Then the next day he packed his bag and he said, I'm not worthy of being in the same room as you.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he left, and that was it.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: That is just beyond appalling.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't even stand up and show the honor of apologizing or explaining, or you'd caught him being as despicable as he obviously was, but not having the courage, like at least if he'd had the courage to say, you know what, you're right.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: I stuffed up, or I mean, I thought it was interesting what you described because we all know the good guys, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: And many people know the good guys which you refer to.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think there's something, there's some alignment in your, I suppose, reflection and your um, you know, processing of this that in his attempt to meet all the requirements and standards and expectations.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Nikki has interviewed hundreds of celebrities about touchy topics and even took the now infamous video of an agast Anna Winter being asked for her ID at an event.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Nikki attended college in Melbourne, Australia, and has worked for many newspapers over the years.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: When she's not stalking celebs on the red carpet, Nikki loves to watch the great British British bake-off and true crime murder mysteries and nag her children.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: You can follow her red carpet escapades on Instagram at Nikki Goston.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, Nikki, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: So good to have a fellow journo on board, and we can talk about all things uh journalism.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Great, thank you.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you're uh based in New York and have been there for a long time.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit about how your journey started and what it is that drives you to interview and engage in the celebrity world, but not just celebrities, but predominantly celebrities.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to me about that.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: I love I love your story.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_04: I came to New York with friends on a holiday and just stayed, so it wasn't really a very thought-out plan.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I kind of fell into it.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: I was working at Newsweek and uh they used to have a page at the back, which was kind of like a fun celebrity page, and they used to have a column that was for an interview and they never could get anyone to do it, and no one on staff, no one wanted to do it.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I'll do it.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_04: And um, it was Newsweek at the time was a really big deal.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: We could get anyone on the phone.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_04: I started, I just I didn't care interview.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: I just thought it was funny to annoy people and not be.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_04: I there's nothing that's more boring to me when an actor will talk about what it was like working with a director, because of course they're gonna rave and say something nice.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_04: I'd much rather hear what they had for breakfast.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_04: That to me is infinitely more interesting.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_04: I'm with you on that.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we love, yeah.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, in other words, I mean, Newsweek was pretty hard-hitting and certainly not where you wouldn't associate it with sort of celebrities and that's you know, it was very predominantly news.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's interesting that you grab that column.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I had a column in the age called What I've Learned, which is where this podcast really was born from.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I relate to that idea of wanting to do a bit of a deep dive and get an insight into how that person ticks.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's really just a fascination with humanity, isn't it?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's what drives me.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, I I think that there's nothing the best advice I ever got in the beginning, I was trying to be funny and quippy.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember my editor saying to me, You're not listening.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Oh, a penny dropped.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, he's right, I wasn't listening.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_04: I was just like rat a tat tat.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_04: And um, and I am interested in hearing about, but like it doesn't matter, famous or not, I love hearing about people's stories and where they came from and what motivates them.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it's all just so interesting to me.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_04: So I love hearing people talk.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm and that's why I do this, because there's nothing, it fills you cup, doesn't it?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because also you learn a lot.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've learned so much from all these interviews, like I'm learning from you now.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I actually consider it a privilege, and I'm sure you're the same, that somebody's prepared to trust me with their story and to give their version of the world and their lens on the world.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually quite a privilege to share that with someone and for someone to trust us and to trust you.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, in the in the sense of your your, I suppose, journey, who's some of the people that have really rocked you or moved you or challenged you?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Any any just a few that come to mind?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I've had some, I've got some favorites that I like speaking to.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I've been told off by people, so that has stayed in my mind too.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_04: Like what?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like who's told you off?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_04: I love that.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like, but it's Jerry Lewis, who was famously just a grump and a nasty person, and he screamed at me on the phone.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I literally screamed with laughter.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_04: I was just like, I loved it that Jerry Lewis was telling me off.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: I just loved it.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_04: Why was he telling you off?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_04: Why did you do it?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: Because I he he, I mean, if you read about him, if you just go to his Wikipedia page, he was like one of the nastiest people.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_04: So it wasn't even grumpy, it was like worse than that.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it was something silly that set him off.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like it wasn't even anything, and he just went off to the races and it was fabulous.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_04: I loved it.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm trying to think.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I've just interviewed so many people and it's just been fun along the way.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: I love I love it when also when I do these red carpets and I'm the oldest there by decades.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I and I act like the rabbi for the kids, I call them the kids.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I say to them, treat it like it should be like a tennis match or any type of game.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna throw the ball to you, hit the ball to you, and you want the celebrity to hit it back to you, and then you're gonna have fun.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like they've got to realize that, and most do, that I'm coming from a place of fun and lightness, and because you've only got two minutes.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the red carpet is your focus.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you're right, that's actually quite hard, like very different to what I do, which is deep dive for an hour.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: You have to, in that, you have to grab that that nutshell or that nugget very quickly while they're walking on the red carpet.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's quite a skill, I reckon, to get that.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I can imagine that it would be quite challenging because you're jostling with other journalists, like I get this sort of space and I get to control and create it.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: You are really having to fly by the seat of your pants, make it work and engage them.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: How challenging is that?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and obviously you're known because you've been doing it for years, but is it getting harder?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: And also, what are some of your tips about how to ensure that you get that nugget?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Well, like I said, the to me, the number one is uh hopefully they'll realize that it's it takes two.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so I'm gonna be light and playful with you, and so hopefully you're gonna be light and playful with me, and then we'll have some fun and we'll get something quippy, and it's not gonna be any big anything that you're gonna be embarrassed about.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: I work for the New York Post, which uh and page six, which is kind of this infamous gossip page, which is fun to read, but celebrities are terrified of.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_04: So a lot of times I I still have this now.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_04: I can't get on car, I have to beg to get on carpets.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_04: And people, publicists don't want to, they'll not they don't want their clients to speak, and then they see it's me and they okay, we'll do it for Nikki because they know I'm not gonna, I don't want to do anything snarky, I don't like being mean, I like having fun, but I'm just not here to especially the last couple of years, there's too much negativity in the world, I'm not gonna add more to it.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that that in itself is testimony to what you've, you know, you've created a bridge there for people that they know they can trust.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting that that notion of the gossip page, the page six.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you think it's changed?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it's become, especially as social media is now driving this whole other um agenda and also platform?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's massive.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it's as powerful as it was, or do you think it's it's losing some of its bite?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: Well, the things have changed, like we used to do a lot of like magazine editors, that was a big deal.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like it just doesn't, that world doesn't exist anymore.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_04: Nightclubs was a big thing, which it's starting to come back, but you know, because of COVID, that just disappeared.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_04: And um, so the landscape of Manhattan has changed a lot uh in that way.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: And reality stars, they just you know, they didn't exist.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: So fascinating, isn't it?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really different world from when you started, when you and I started.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but particularly in that space, you're actually right.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, New York has transformed in that sense, as has the world.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: So what are you finding?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, like nobody really cares, you know.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: As you, I mean, we talk about Anna Winter and she's still got a you know a strong power base, obviously, but it is a it is a different time.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so who are you finding that when it goes I mean, I was just looking, I mean, Sarah Snook and Margot Robbie, seeing them.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was so excited, as I'm sure you were, to see Australians thriving and and doing so well.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what what are you seeing in terms of the who people want to read about?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um for our audience for page six right now, it's uh Taylor Swift obsessed.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: They love Taylor Swift, they love housewives, big on housewives, um, and they also love reading about the royal family and particularly Meghan Markle, and it's like a love and hate thing.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_04: They a lot of the audience hates her, but they love reading about her.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: So for you drawing that line in that space, first of all, that must be quite difficult because you obviously want to capture the the snapshot that you need for page six, but you also come from a base where you also don't sound like you're on the gossip trail in the in the old sense of the word.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: You sound like you're somebody who actually just you know wants to have a relationship, have a bit of banter and and capture that person.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: How difficult is that?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is that hard?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_04: When I'm if they are like I have to do a lot of write-ups.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_04: So that's just you know, where you write from the source and you have to click, you know, link to them, and that's a whole different story.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: But when I'm doing original interviews, um I, you know, obviously I want to get something newsy, but I don't want to get something that is gonna, you know, embarrass someone or I I just want it to be fun and interesting.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: So I have had it a couple of times where someone said something to me and I knew it was gonna get them into a heap of trouble.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I just thought I talked about it with my boss, and I thought it's just not worth ruining their life over a day of me having a big story for one day, and I just didn't feel comfortable with it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_04: Having said that though, if someone, you know, confesses to murdering someone, I'm not gonna be nice about it, I'm gonna run it.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, for some silly thing that they said that in this day and age where you get cancelled so quickly, it's just not worth it.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, just 15 minutes a day or a couple of hours a week spent doing something creative significantly improves your mental health.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: It might be art, crafts, singing, dancing, gardening, cooking, playing the ukulele, but all of it reduces anxiety.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Knitting regulates our stress levels just like jogging does, and singing calms our trauma response.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Creative practices soothe our nervous system, reduce burnout, and help us feel present and connected.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm really excited to have Caitlin and Lizzie, who are at the forefront of the creative prescribing movement in Australia.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Their remit is to jam the joy into mental health, restoration, recovery, and collective resilience.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: They firmly believe that you don't need to be good at art for art to be good for you.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: So they've developed this extraordinary creative prescriptive book and also platform.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: They can guide your listeners through practical hands-on activities that can take as little as a few minutes to demonstrate the powerful impact of creativity and practice and have fun with it.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, for the first time, they've distilled their decades of knowledge and practice into a new book, Creative First Aid, the science and joy of creativity for mental health, published this March.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, Lizzie, Caitlin, welcome to the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so thrilled to have you join us.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think my listeners will be very excited about what you're doing.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks, Deborah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry for being here.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Pleasure to have you both.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, creativity, of which I'm a big fan, obviously.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: I come from a creative environment.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I have a lot of creatives come on the podcast.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me how this concept developed, where you got the idea.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, Lizzie and I have been working together for actually just over a decade, and we met when I moved to this area in Wollongong and didn't know anyone and ended up somehow in a kind of backyard singing group.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I got invited along to um yeah, come and sing with a bunch of people.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: We were all just, you know, liked singing and liked playing music.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love singing too.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that idea.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it was, you know, very much for me about I wanted to make connections.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'd gone through some big stuff in my life.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've just lost my mum.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was pregnant with my first child and singing.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was not even a particularly good singer, but I just thought I'll do anything right now to kind of find a way to meet some people and um get some creative expression happening in my life.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we met and both kind of worked in the space of I'm a social worker, I was working in community development at Izzy in sustainability education and community development.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we just kept talking about how great it would be if there was a platform for people to connect around shared interests and things they enjoyed, rather than what often happens in our line of work is that people connect or are put together because they share a problem.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_06: We sometimes use the example of like if you're gonna, you know, form a loneliness club, you're not necessarily gonna attract that many people.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_06: Whereas if you are, you know, creating a creative workshop, then you're probably gonna attract those people and they'll experience connection and an easing of social isolation through the activity and the process of creativity.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, and it seems somewhat obvious, it doesn't it?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like something that you know it's amazing that nobody's really done this to this degree, like what you what you have created with makeshift.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me a little bit about the logistics of how that came to be.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: So then you obviously joined the singing group, and then Lizzie, how did you get involved?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_06: Uh so I was obviously in the singing group too.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_06: We became friends.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_06: Um, we had small children at the time, and we created this concept of a business together, um, which started out as a grassroots community-based Skillshare organization where we ran classes for adults in various places, gardens, backyards, community gardens, co-ops, libraries, community halls, etc., um, where we were cultivating and building, you know, a resourceful, sustainable DIY community through the exchange of skills.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_06: So people would put their hand up to teach DIY bike maintenance or sourdough bread baking.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_06: We would make it happen.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_06: It was really successful.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_06: And then really what started happening was that GPs and psychologists started getting in touch with us and saying, hey, I want you to know I'm sending my clients to your classes because they're experiencing a decrease of anxiety or they're feeling more connected or their depression is easing a little through learning how to bake bread or learning how to make a garden and connecting with other people.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_06: And so we knew this was happening and we were actively cultivating this, and then having this kind of informal creative prescribing from GPs and doctors just shone a big light on it, and we went went towards it and turned into makeshift, which is what we are today, prescribing creativity as a vital form of medicine for our well-being and mental health.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: It is just such a good idea.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think too, we had lots of people telling us, you know, this coming to these classes has really helped me.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so we were also hearing directly from people themselves that their mental health was being improved because not just they'd come to one class, but then they'd kind of fall into a new interest or a new hobby or a new practice that would then connect them to more people and they discover other people that were interested in that too.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really that social fabric that, you know, when we talk about mental health and accessing support, all those formal supports are really important, but they don't take up.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: There are lots of other days of the week.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of other hours.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good point.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of people who are quite isolated, particularly the way that, you know, the digital world makes ironically, it can connect people, but can also make people feel isolated.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I love the hands-on nature of your workshops that you know it's actually people in a room or in a garden or in a library.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: How can creativity help people with experiences like depression, anxiety, grief, or trauma?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Specifically, you talk about, and even you work with first responders, I saw, and you work with people who are also on the other side of dealing with trauma because they themselves are traumatized by that role.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that was a pilot where we worked with 44, mostly first responders, who were their PTSD was so significant they weren't able to work.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of them weren't even leaving the house.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we were running that program online on Zoom.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: We'd post everyone a big box of stuff, including a ukulele and paints and other weird things, which was, you know, a really big deal for them.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, I mean, the outcomes of that were pretty incredible.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's why we really stand by that creativity can play a role for people who are well in kind of maintaining our well-being, but also as part of recovery for people who are really significantly going through lots of challenges.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, one of the biggest gaps in mental health, I mean, this would have to be one of the major gaps, I'm sure, because really, in a sense, the doctors work to heal and treat.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I love the way you refer to it as prescription, because it is, it is really, it shows the sort of, I suppose, the serious nature of what it offers.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_06: What do you see?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the gaps in mental health education and this creative first aid fit that I think you've created is quite clever.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_06: Well, uh, we call it a prescription because the nature of engaging with creativity, which is innate, it's in all of us, right?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_06: As being human, we're just creative, even though so many of us think we're not.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_06: We are.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and I guess the kind of medicinal aspect or the first aid aspect of that is that by um, you know, practicing creativity, it engages with our nervous system and it um impacts the brain chemistry.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_06: So it can help to calm us and lower our cortisol levels and boost our serotonin and our happy hormones, and it has an interplay with our nervous system.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_06: So right there and then it can be a form of, I guess, a treatment or a medicine, which is why a lot of doctors, more and more in Australia and particularly over in places like the UK, are starting to send their patients to join a choir or go into the forest and have a walk through the forest.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, the forest walks are huge, aren't they?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's become a whole bunch.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, one of the biggest um gaps in literacy around what it means to look after your mental health, we hear that all the time.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're meant to look after our mental health, but how do you actually do that and what does that actually look like?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is still pretty vague.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, learning to notice and understand your nervous system and the messages that your nervous system is sending are little cues about what we need.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we can empower people to know what that their nervous system is telling them, I need rest, I need to play, I need to take a break and do something that's enjoyable because that's resetting our nervous system into a space of being functioning, like being able to learn and feel empathy and problem solve when we're kind of outside our window of regulation.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to do those things.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that is at the heart of the work we do and what's in our book is trying to build the literacy around that because we're not we're not taught it.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: We don't get taught that in school.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: We don't.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: I find it extraordinary.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's really interesting what you say because you talk about schooling and education, and you know, there's a big drive on the academic achievement, as we all know, and the pressure and the atar and the get through and become this and become that.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: It is just so logical.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I was a creative always at school.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I remember, you know, the that and I went into journalism, which proved to be great and an amazing journey for me.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't at the time, you know, the notion of having a creative pursuit has become a little more acceptable if not fostered now.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's always been very sidelined in the education sort of world, hasn't it?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, that's lovely.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: You want to be a painter, you want to be a weaver, you want to be a writer, lovely, but it's not.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: It hasn't been given the values.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is more now, because actually the creatives are driving the world, in case somebody hasn't noticed.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they are a lot of them, you know, whether it's social media or design or art or music, a lot of these platforms are critical to the way our community and our and in particular our children are raised.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: So immersing what you do into being part of our education system, is that something you've explored?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Is it something you're doing so that young, you don't have to be a kinder and be in doing play-doh.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: You can actually be in year 11 and you know, being creative.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something you've explored?
• 37:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: We get we've been asked that a lot.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_06: We um, you know, we firmly believe it should be part of the curriculum, um, particularly for, you know, kind of year nine and up high school kids when they start entering the kind of ladder, ladder years in the HSC, and a lot of um, you know, mental health kind of rises up around that time.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_06: And there's huge support that can be given to those kids if they understand their nervous system and they understand that a quite a practical, fun, playful application to support them can be through creative practice.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_06: So we have been asked a lot, um, and we're looking to, you know, to move into that space, but we've we've just we haven't had time.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, it's so busy, I know, because your book, it's a it's a brilliant concept.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the book will help get that out more and more into the world and into other arenas.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting too, because you know, people always, you know, there's those people that go, Oh, look, I'm not creative.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a creative, you know, as in they have a perception.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think that is an interesting notion too, that it tended to be, oh, you're a right brain, you know, you're not a left brain.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's also about changing our lens on that.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, we've met hundreds of those people.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, when we ran all those hundreds of workshops in our local community, often it was the first thing people would say.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: They'd walk through the door to come to a, you know, watercolour painting class and they'd say, Oh, I don't know what I'm doing here.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not creative, mine's going to be terrible.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like that's that's what we expect people to say.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like they have to kind of just make this disclaimer before they've even begun.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that has come from our culture that says there are rules about who's allowed to do this stuff.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think a lot of people, when they are young, when they're at school, they get this very strong message.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think about that time, we're just figuring out who we are.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: We don't even know what we love yet.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're still exploring.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: But if you get told you've got no musical ability at all, or you're never going to be an artist, then people tend to shut that door forever, you know?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: And our point is that those things are good for us to do, whether we're good at them or not.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Just like physical exercise is pretty good for everyone to do.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of us don't enjoy it or aren't necessarily good at it, but that's not really the point.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we can have musicians that we buy tickets to go and see because they're amazing musicians, but we can also just be people that play music because it feels good for us, and it doesn't really matter if we're that good at it.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I actually agree with you.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this notion of saving the family business with passion and strength, Michelle Stanton had to dive deep faced with the financial ruin of Bevel's Jewelers, her family's 80-year-old company.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: She found a way through the mire with heart and soul, and it survived and thrived, selling to Michael Hill, a global multinational.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, Michelle, your story is one of strength, courage, resilience, and finding an innovative way out of what was a dark place for a while, but you found the light.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit about your incredible story and how you managed to, in a sense, I suppose there was a reinvention of sorts, a revival, a restoration.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I grew up in Melbourne with a loving family.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_05: I had a brilliant childhood, a life of abundance and what I call normality.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, you know, went on summer camps.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, I never knew what to wear on casual day at school.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_05: I was bullied every morning at the bus stop and yes, and ended up with a severe eating disorder uh for three years in my uh early 20s.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_05: But what was probably a bit different about my life was that my parents owned a very successful jewellery retail business called Bevel's Jewers, uh, which started in Melbourne in 1934.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_05: 1934.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_05: So it's 80 years, isn't it?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_05: That business.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_05: It was 80 years old then, yes.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it's now 88.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_05: And yeah, and it was an absolute privilege uh, you know, growing up with a family business.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_05: We ate it for dinner, lunch, uh, it was around every conversation.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_05: And we all absolutely loved it.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_05: I I particularly loved it.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_05: I was the young girl at five who would sneak into my dad's office and type up ads and tell the staff to get working.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_05: So it was always in my blood.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_05: And uh when we I went straight into the business after university, it's the only job I had ever had.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_05: I really had the privilege of learning and working in every aspect of the business.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, so it was a great breeding ground for me.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_05: But I was working very hard, 70 hours a week.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, I didn't mind because I loved it so much, and so did my family.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_05: And in 2009, when I was about 40, my brother and father elected me to become the CEO and take over my father in the role of running the business.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_05: And on the outside, that seemed like it was absolutely the right thing.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_05: I was ready, I knew the business, I loved it.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_05: But on the inside, it was a completely different story.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you had to draw on something very powerful.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you also carried you know, a big responsibility of taking that family business forward, but also protecting your parents and ensuring that there was inverted comma success and that there was continued growth.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us what happened.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I don't know if you can relate to this where on the outside you have this success, it looks like you're, you know, you've got everything together.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_05: Everything together, yeah.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_05: And on the inside, do you feel like an absolute fraud?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_05: Like you're uh so petrified of failing, you're waiting to be found out, thinking that there's no way that you know, deserve uh this opportunity.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_05: And I made some really poor decisions over those few years.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_05: And quite quickly from between 2009 and 2000.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_05: And 13, the business went from being a very successful, you know, 80-plus-year-old business into losing millions of dollars.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: Just on that note, you talk about mistakes made.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: And let's be honest, everyone's made them, particularly in business, and particularly because you were carrying, it was an enormous business.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: So can you just highlight, for example, one of those errors that in retrospect you would do differently?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_05: Well, and to give your viewers a feeling of the size, we would serve about 300,000 customers a year.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Enormous.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, that's a huge responsibility.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's not like, you know, this is, I suppose, something that you had to carry, but also not everybody's equipped to do that.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_05: I think one of the biggest ones was I hadn't learned how to make decisions.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_05: And I was so brightened of making any.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_05: And prior to becoming the CEO, my brother and my father and I, we would all make the decisions together.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_05: And so I could hide behind this.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_05: I actually didn't even realize it was such a problem.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_05: And then when I found myself in the CEO role, yeah, I really did need to make some decisions without asking my brother for permission on everything.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_05: And uh that was horrific.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_05: It was the most difficult thing to do.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_05: Another thing that I did, I wanted to change to the brand, and I really didn't go with my authentic self on what I felt like the brand went, uh, should be.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_05: I took the advice of the uh advertising agency, and we came up with a formula for that was black and dark and horrible, and the customers hated it.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a really good point because I think in business we talk about advisors, whether they be advertising um agencies or they be even financial advisors, and we'll get to that because that story is really interesting.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: But using having faith in your own intuition and backing your own judgment is not always so easy when you're faced with people who say, we're the experts, we know what we're doing, listen to us.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that, you know, that was an example where whether you call it a mistake, you probably deferred to something that you thought they were the experts.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I probably, you know, in part led it to it as well.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_05: But I think when you're you don't back your own confidence and your knowledge and you're feeling overwhelmed by having to make so many decisions, then you're just not actually in alignment with making good ones.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_05: And I made many.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_05: And the other thing that was quite difficult at the time is because prior to that, I was actually doing the job of about four people.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_05: And that I could do successfully.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_05: But when I took on the CEO or CEO role, I had to bring in a management team to do the things that I was doing.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I were doing four jobs important things.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I understand.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: So you really had four roles, which when you're running a family business, sometimes that's what happens.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: But what you're saying is that that was part of the collateral damage because you couldn't keep an eye on all of the bulls.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, retrospectively, what would you reflect on what you learned from those two particular instances?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_05: On those particular two, uh, when I had the opportunity after um, you know, the story unfolded, I was really able to lean into creating a brand that I was absolutely in love with that I knew that my customers would love.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_05: And I wasn't trying to be something that we weren't.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_05: So that authenticity came out in the brand.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_05: And the thing and the second thing was the two things that I let go of was the buying.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so prior to when prior to that, I was overseeing every single piece of design that came through the business.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_05: And I would bless it and love it and make sure it was perfect in its design.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_05: And I had let that go when I brought in a senior team and I had let go of connecting with my team.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_05: And so those two things became my um, you know, juggernauts of of strength in when I had had a new opportunity to go again, and I never let them go.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: And also, I suppose what you're saying is that while you can get expert advice, as you did with the ad agency and that that brand, that rebrand, which was such a disaster from your perspective, it's something that you next time, you know, as you evolved, you worked out that you had to listen to your own intuition, combined with obviously advisors.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: But the story unfolds really interestingly because your evolution is quite fascinating.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: And you and I have touched on this earlier.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay, you you then find yourself overwhelmed.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: And there is something also, just for our listeners, there is something to be said for the pressures of taking on that role and how equipped we are when we do take on that role, and how do we equip ourselves better?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us what happened next.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_05: So, as the business started losing millions of dollars, um, and you know, possibly some of your viewers know bankers are great friends when you're doing well, but they quickly want to take the umbrella away when it starts raining.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_05: And good description, yeah.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_05: And they gave me 90 days to come up with five million dollars.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_05: Otherwise, I'm gonna foreclose the business and put it into voluntary administration.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_05: And of course, that was just, you know, sickening to my stomach that A, I had been the person that had led the business to this date and took responsibility for it.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_05: But even worse still was that, you know, a lot of people were going to lose millions of dollars and people's jobs were at stake.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_05: And those two things were actually the things that uh really I felt so bereft by.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_05: And after working so hard and sacrificing, you know, time with my family, my health during these difficult years, doing everything that I could to try and save the business.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, there was one morning when it was just after I'd received this notice, and I was walking into my dressing room, you know, I was in my pajamas and my UG boots, bereft with this just distraught feeling.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_05: And I fell to the ground and um just crying those tears that you know are so overwhelming.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_05: And I in that moment just couldn't believe that I I'd let myself become this and and led was leading this particular result.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_05: And my son, who had never, who was about seven at the time, had never seen me cry, saw me on the ground and you know, bent down and said, Mummy, you know, what's wrong?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_05: And I told him what was happening.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_05: And in that moment, Deb, it was like this lioness started to wake up inside of me.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_05: And she was pulling me up off the ground.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: The image is so viewed, yeah, like climbing.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: You described climbing up the shelving.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, the dressing on, yeah.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_05: Pulling myself up to, you know, to be on my knees.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_05: And I looked at my son in the eyes, and I just said to him, Sweetie, you know what?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_05: This is not going to be my story, and nor is it the story you're going to be sharing about me for the rest of your life.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_05: And in that moment, although I had been trying to find a way, and I'd been trying everything, I was just obsessed at trying to find a solution.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_05: It was like something else took hold.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that lioness is a very good description, the lioness.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we've all we can all relate to that.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: That, you know, when you know, that it's a very powerful image because I think many of our listeners can relate to that feeling of absolute desolation and desperation, and just finding that little bit extra to literally get up off the floor.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so from there, take us through what happened next.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_05: Well, a miracle did happen.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and amazing.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, I suppose the lioness came to help me.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_05: And a I did find an angel investor who literally, over a um a hug, gave me the money in the 90 days to save the business.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_05: And it's extraordinary.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_05: And he I only knew him for a couple of years before, and he he said that he'd seen me um with my three-week-year-old baby flying to India, breastfeeding, um, do you know, choosing jewelry.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_05: And he thought that this, you know, there was something remarkable about this, and he just wanted to come and help me.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_05: That is more than serendipity.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that is like serendipity on steroids.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like, but but it does say something about relationships, connections, and how some of those small connections we make, we never know where they're going to take us.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll come back to that.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: But it talk we talk about faith and the underpinning of having a manifestation.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: But we'll come back to that because it's part of the story, isn't it?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: That you faith is everything.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, faith is everything.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you and I have talked about this.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: So you basically met the 90 days, but that just kept your head above water, didn't it?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_05: That's right.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_05: All that did was pay off the banks, but the business was still losing the millions of dollars and nothing had changed.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_05: So I had a small window, it was about nine months, to um try and think about how to actually change in, you know, the the way that the business functioned to um stop the bleeding.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_05: And I worked with an amazing advertising agency, and we came up with a new brand uh for the existing company, took its strengths, but really they really got to know me and wanted to um bring that to life within the brand because I I felt like I and the brand were the same thing.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_05: We we were we were one.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_05: And they did a fantastic job, and we came up with a new look for the stores, we modernized them, we made them more feminine, they were accessible, they were gorgeous, and I had time in that nine months to do two test stores, and um I launched those stores in uh November and December of 2013.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_05: They were a great success.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_05: Our customers were lining up to shop there, but of course, I had at the time, I think 28 stores that were losing money, and so within a couple of months I had run out of runway and uh needed to make some very hard decisions.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: Love Deb.