Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / How to Be a Happy Lawyer in Six Minutes a Day, with Jennifer Gillman

Transcript

How to Be a Happy Lawyer in Six Minutes a Day, with Jennifer Gillman · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I am so thrilled to chat.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was having a blast listening, I mean, perusing your content and uh listening to some of your own conversations.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, having finding all of the people who are talking about lawyer well-being is so much fun.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: And my goal with the Wellness Esquire is, I think, in overlapping with you, is to really change how the industry operates.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel so strongly that there are more of us out there that think in this way that we'll talk about and that we talk about all the time on the show.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um we just don't know each other.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're too quiet about it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing I believe that's gonna really change the industry is gonna be us finding each other and getting a lot louder about it and making sure that all of the lawyers and all the law students and the law firms and law schools know who to go to for the support and the guidance and the resources so that everyone can build the kinds of careers that really align with what they want and the life that they want.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, you of course are one of the people that is helping my lawyers do that.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna have some fun.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying my best to help one lawyer at a time.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're hoping that it's one lawyer at a time.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: We would reach more people with the book, but uh it's just slow buildup.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll see.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, we take baby steps and have a huge impact in the end.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So take me way back.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now you are a a coach to, or not sorry, not a coach, a recruiter for lawyers to help them find the law firms that are really gonna be the right fit for them as a human.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: You started out practicing law.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me what led you to law school in the first place, and then what led you to leaving law to do the work you do now?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I was a very enthusiastic student, and um I for a little while I was very, very good at science, and I we have a family of lawyers, and just like I do with my kids, that they were kind of encouraging like, could we find somebody who has a STEM career?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I was encouraged to pursue anything else I was interested in because the life of being a lawyer is imperfect sometimes.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I I won some awards in science in grade school, but as the math component of it got harder and harder, like in in physics, it wasn't really for me anymore.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I I looked back at, I don't know if you know you're you're of a bit different generation, but we used to have autograph books in grade school because um there weren't we didn't have um a yearbook because it was you know small kids, but we would have everybody sign it and all the teachers used to write, you're gonna make such a great lawyer, you're gonna, and I didn't feel like I was that argumentative, but I always sometimes I would question what was happening in a you know, I I thought polite and diplomatic way, and sometimes I could make a point and convince somebody to maybe rethink it.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And as I said, I came from a family of lawyers, and so I was pretty familiar with what they did.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad was um my favorite human, and he was a lawyer, and we used to talk about you know, Supreme Court cases that came down or what he might be working on, obviously keeping confidentiality.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I just it got to the point where I had always been thinking I want to do something with science, and it became less interesting to me.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought maybe I get to do the thing I really want to do that I really enjoy the best, and that's gonna be my career.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I decided on law school before I went to college, and because of that, I was able to choose any major I wanted because I understood the way law school admissions worked.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I majored in English and I specialized in the Victorian novel, and I got to read all the books that I always meant to read.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I would sit in the squishy chair at the library and read a fun book and go to class and you know, discuss or write an essay when some people didn't enjoy their homework quite as much as I did.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that was fun.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I got to law school, which wasn't as much fun as college, but I really did like practicing.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think you have to learn what to do.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then the people who I know who loved law school the best didn't necessarily like being lawyers, they liked the academic um learning about it, and I really wanted to get in there, so I loved my trial practice class.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, some of those other things I enjoyed more.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then I practiced for about 12 years, and I really did enjoy it.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Many recruiters um only practiced for a little while or never did, or really hated it.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: I really did enjoy it.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Had I decided not to have children, I might still be practicing, but I hadn't seen my older one for about two years when he was still awake during the week, and I was looking to make a little bit of a change, and I accidentally found something that I liked even more.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: That was a very long answer.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So in the the lead up to you leaving the practice of law and entering the recruiting space, what was happening in your mind, you know, in these two years when you weren't you were only seeing your kid, you know, while they were asleep.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or on the weekends, sometimes.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I was at the office on the weekends.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking that I hadn't really thought it out well.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: I had a friend who went into trust and estates because she knew she wanted to have children and she was going to be at a large firm and learn what she could, and then she was going to open her own practice from home and she had it all mapped out, and I was like, ah, you know, I don't even know if I want to have kids.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: I have to choose the area of law I like the best.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: But my practice area was litigation-based, and it's just really hard to do that part-time or to do that on a schedule where you have to leave the office at a particular time and feel like you're giving it your all.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I was we had moved to the suburbs and it made my commute longer, and I was working crazy hours.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I was actually interviewing for in-house counsel roles closer to our home in New Jersey that we had bought, so that I could be around a little bit more and have more predictable hours.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I very accidentally was um interviewing for a job with a pharmaceutical company and a different recruiter called me about the same job.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, actually, I'm meeting with the general counsel next week.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've already been through three or four rounds or whatever.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Oh gosh, my candidate kind of flamed out in the beginning.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we have a meeting and I'll tell you about the other in-house roles I'm working on?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we met for lunch, and all he did was try and convince me to be a recruiter.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't tell me about any other roles.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remembered as he was saying that that over the years when recruiters would call me, you know, some of them were not very um, they didn't sound like people I would trust.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's no barrier to entry.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, to be a lawyer, you have to go to law school, you have to pass the bar exam in most states.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: There are some qualifications.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: To be a legal recruiter, you have to just tell people you're a legal recruiter.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's kind of an issue because lawyers get contacted by a lot of people that maybe aren't as skilled or don't have their best interests in mind, or you know, so I got a lot of really crazy cold calls over the years.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes if somebody sounded normal, I would talk to them for a while.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: We'd have a conversation about the role that they had called me about, and then they'd say something like, you know, you would really like this.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: We have an opening at our place, or they're always looking for new recruiters.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you come and meet with the, you know, the president or whatever?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And said, No, I like the role you called me about.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I like being a lawyer.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do something else.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: But by the time this guy was telling me, you know, I think you would be a better recruiter than for this role that you applied for, I I had run out of, you know, things that I really loved about my practice that I could do and still see my kids.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it was really exciting to try cases and take depositions and argue motions at the beginning.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're doing that around having, at that point, I had a baby and a toddler.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it's hard to fit it in.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And there weren't really any in-house jobs where I could do more advice and counsel and drafting, because this was um at the Great Recession time when a lot of um companies were just, you know, defending themselves if they got um sued, but they weren't pursuing a lot of proactive kind of training and advice.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I've he said, give me two weeks.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't like it, I'm gonna leave you alone.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking back, like a lot of people have suggested this to me over the years.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: This guy thinks I would be good at it.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's been doing it for many years.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe he knows, maybe I'll try it out.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it never really felt like a job.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was supposed to talk to people and get to know them.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been good at figuring out who likes to work together or spend time together.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I've made a couple marriages in my personal life, so this was kind of like making work marriages.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it it appealed to me in a lot of different ways.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Later on, once my kids were a little bit older and I didn't need flexibility in my schedule, and I was trying to be very strategic about how to build out what I was doing there, I realized that what I really loved about recruiting didn't fit into the typical business model.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And about eight years ago, I started my own company.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: When you started your own company, did you have that focus that you do now around lawyer happiness?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Did you understand the importance of that?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: I did, but when I started my own company, I knew that I wanted to work with people who had a lot of choices.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted them to not just be applying for an open position, but be able to be proactive and think about what they would really want in a work environment so that I could match it and represent them kind of like their agent.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started out and still work with what we call rainmakers.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's usually partners, but experienced lawyers who have their own clients that will follow them or their own way of getting clients at the next firm because they're moving with work that can keep them busy.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the firm doesn't have to have a need, and they're moving with revenue, so the firm doesn't have to think about how to pay them.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: They can pay them out of their own revenue, so they have a lot more choices in the market.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I had the idea that I could change the legal profession one rainmaker at a time.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: I thought if if the partner running the case is happier because he or she has that, we call it the exact right perfect fit, the law firm that gives them the right resources and appreciation, whatever it is they need, whether it's staffing or tech or practice areas, and removes the friction from the practice of law so that they can enjoy it and it could be a sustainable career where they're not going to burn out.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: If the person at the top of the team was feeling like that, maybe he or she would interact better with everybody on the team and the people on the same hallway and the people in word processing and the people on the other side.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we could have enough happy rainmakers, I thought it could change sort of the culture all over.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And for a while I stuck with that because I can't help every single law firm partner in the entire universe who's not a hundred percent satisfied because it's very time-intensive and and uh hands-on what I do.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um, after a while, we were being approached by a lot of people who weren't Rainmakers, who didn't have their own clients, or were very junior, or were just coming out of law school, and they wanted some advice too.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I had been speaking on various different issues, but nobody understood why a recruiter would care about mental health and wellness, or you know, why why don't you just, you know, place them or whatever.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it was easier for me to try and come up with a framework to explain how everything fit together and why I cared about it so much.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we call the six pillars to becoming a happy readmaker.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about those six pillars.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we start with care for yourself because sadly you have to be alive to do the other ones.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we are in a mental health and wellness crisis that started when they did that first research in 2016, and then we all read Big Law Killed My Husband.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And there have been a lot of different initiatives to put more money and time and attention on the topic of mental health and wellness for lawyers.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And in some categories, there's been improvement, and in some categories it's gotten worse.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we have very high suicide rates, very high anxiety and depression, very high alcohol and drug abuse rates.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, unfortunately, for the lawyers that even avoid all the mental health problems, there are often physical health challenges.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: The issue is they just feel like their time is not their own.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if I have a mental health issue that I want to address, maybe I say, you know what, my New Year's resolution is I'm finally going to find a therapist that I'm gonna talk with all the time.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going every Tuesday at 11.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've got the appointment, it's all set, and I go once or twice and it's fantastic.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then the third time there's a work emergency, and the fourth time a partner calls me right before I have to leave.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the fifth time, and eventually I get dropped by the therapist because he or she has a waiting list and wants to actually help somebody, not sit in an empty office.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then that same lawyer says, Well, it's only gonna happen again.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna find another therapist, I don't have time now, maybe after I make partner, after I make equity, or after the kids are out of the house or whatever.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes if you wait too long, there isn't time for after.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then on the physical side, a lot of lawyers really aren't sleeping.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: They really just aren't.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can go.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have a candidate right now who I'm working with who's in his early 30s, and he's literally not sleeping.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's working seven days a week on other people's work, and then he's doing his own business development, and he has no help on the stuff that he brings in.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So he runs all of that himself.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he keeps telling me, it's okay, I'm young, I can handle it now.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, well, that's gonna be a finite period of time.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: I see the magic heart attack age looks like 47.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of lawyers graduate from law school at 25, and it looks like that's how long your body can handle no sleep, and you know, a lot of takeout food and vending machine food, and not a lot of exercise, a lot of unhealthy habits, and a lot of skipping your doctor's appointments and medical testing.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's that really dramatic thing that happens.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's a wake-up call, but sometimes it's too late and it's fatal.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the challenges is, you know, so many of us have operated in that, you know, on that trajectory that does lead to burnout and health and wellness challenges.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: The chat part of the challenge is it's what got us to that first point of success.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we just think, well, this is what we know to get us where we want to go.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: I can't change courses, you know, flip the whole thing upside down.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want to continue being successful.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And what we don't understand and what's hard to change is is to recognize, well, yeah, that got you here.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna get you actually where you want to go, and certainly not in a sustainable way.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you do need to rest.
• 16:07
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of a lot of lawyers think that 14th draft at three in the morning is improving the brief.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And they've done enough research to know that the perfectionism in the law is standing in the way of our best performance.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Staying up late to do another draft of the brief is hurting your work product.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not helping it.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if lawyers would take some time for taking care of themselves, getting a little extra sleep, eating something green, you know, getting uh 10 minutes of a walk in at lunch, anything that moves the needle just a little bit, it's not self-indulgent.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to the spa for a week.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to take care of yourself so that you can produce your best work.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's really beneficial to the firm and your clients.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just for you.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes lawyers feel like they're lazy if they need an extra hour of sleep because they've been working too hard, or if they say, Oh, wait, I need some time to, you know, get a little physical activity.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I always instruct them that they should link it to their performance and how the clients will be happier and the firm will make more money.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, whatever it is, if you can make the ROI related to the business of the law firm in some way, they seem to be a little bit more understanding.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to over-communicate a little.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: We did some videos with people who like to work out even every day, but you probably can't do that if you're in trial today, or if your deal is signing at midnight and it's not ready yet.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes you might have to be a little more flexible.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you also have to communicate.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I were working with you and you were leading my team, I would say, what is um the best time for me to get a little exercise?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Would you like me to do it before work or sneak out at lunch for an hour or do it after work?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can exercise on the weekends, but I really need to find two or three days during the week to get a little movement.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: It makes my work better.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that is understanding that we can have you know movement snacks, movement breaks during the day, do 10 squats.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: You might not be able to do the whole you know marathon that you would love to do or you know, the workout class, but we can fit these little things in.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: But that's where perfectionism works against lawyers, also.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them have a grand plan for you mentioned the word marathon.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna I'm going to train for the marathon next year.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: So right now I'm gonna work really hard, but then I'm gonna get into shape and train.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they have a whole whatever they're gonna do, and that only works until you get assigned to one more deadline, or you really don't have time.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so we do everything in point one because that's how they bill.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're on the 16th floor and you get off at 15 and climb one flight of stairs, if you go across the street to get your coffee and or take a walk around the block, or you know, 10 squats at your desk, or for mental health, we don't have to meditate for two hours for it to be good for us.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: There are all kinds of meditations you could download that are two minutes, five minutes, or you could sit in your chair at work and take three deep breaths.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: But something, doing a little something helps and it it builds upon itself like compound interest, but it also helps you to know that it's possible to fit it in and to use your time between things a little bit better.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: As I've started telling other people to do this, I started realizing that if I was waiting for someone to call me back or I was waiting in line or it wasn't quite time for my next meeting, I would be doom scrolling.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I could actually get something done during that 10 minutes instead and move the ball forward and feel more accomplished and have more free time later.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So there are ways to work a lot of things in, I think.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think I I refer to those as the empty moments, and that's when I'll do, you know, the squats or the calf phrases, or there's a game I call consider it a game that I love on my phone called Stroop, which most people who are familiar with it or have heard of it before are familiar with it as a psych test that is basically assessing your cognitive inhibition skills.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it is that you can also use it to train your brain to stay better focused and to you know not get distracted by the swirl.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what I'll do.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have social media on my phone.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: I do the things that are gonna help charge my brain and my body.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it it takes discipline to make those changes, especially when everyone around you is doing things, you know, differently.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that lawyers are such perfectionists that if they plan to do something and don't get to it, they're like, oh, that's it, I'm done.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna be able to get healthier now.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so even if you take all the social media off your phone and you plan to do something else and you fall off the wagon one day, you have to just get started again.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just say, all right, from now on, I'm just gonna have that heart attack at 47.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm never gonna get any movement, I'm never gonna get any sleep, I'm just gonna eat pre-packaged food out of the vending machine because I missed one time that I was gonna do a 10-minute thing.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you just have to give yourself some grace and understand sometimes you don't have control over your schedule every day, but you often do, and you can often work these things in if you're um deliberate about it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, the as I said, the first pillar is care for yourself.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: The second one is build business because being a rainmaker is what gives you more control over a lot of aspects of your schedule and makes it a more sustainable, enjoyable practice.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you're working on something for your client, you get to Choose the team.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: You get to choose when you have the kickoff call.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't have to be during your child school play.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: You get to decide when the deadlines are and what you know the schedule is going to be, all the different things like that.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you can work it around the things that are important in your own life.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: When you're working for someone else as a service professional, your value to the team is your skill set, but also your availability.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a little bit harder to say no.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: If my value to the team is my skill set plus the revenue I bring in from the clients that I've developed myself, I have a little bit more flexibility about not billing a ton of hours and having more, you know, control over being able to say, I'm working from my, you know, vacation home this week or whatever it is.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is very helpful.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there are little tiny things you can do for business development.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to wait until you have three solid weeks to work on it nonstop.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can spend your point one looking up a friend from law school on LinkedIn and connecting, calling somebody at a client that you've connected with, making a post on LinkedIn, or if you don't have time for a post, you can comment on somebody else's.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have time to write a whole article for a journal, but you have time to brainstorm some topics.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next time you have six minutes, you can come back and choose one of those topics.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the next time you can think about where you might want to publish the article.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the next time you might talk to the marketing professionals at your firm about how they can help you.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are a lot of small things you can do that add up to the action that you want.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, once you decide what kind of business development you want to do, if you choose networking or speaking or attending conferences, obviously on those days it's going to be more than point one, but you can plan ahead and work it into your schedule.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: So pillar three is define boundaries because the people who have boundaries to get their work done, so time work blocks, but also define boundaries.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get this much sleep.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I need Sunday afternoons off with my family.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: I take an exercise class on Tuesday mornings, I coach Little League on Thursday evenings.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is what it's going to be unless there's an emergency.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: They feel like they have time for everything, and it makes them feel like they have more control and they find practicing to be more enjoyable and sustainable over time.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then pillar four is plan intentionally.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you take those boundaries and you get them on your calendar.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: I want to go to this conference, I want to take a vacation with my family, I want to block off every Thursday night to coach that little league team, whatever it is, it goes on your calendar.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it could just say unavailable or out of office or busy.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to tell people what it is if you feel uncomfortable.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then plan intentionally also matters for your whole career.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want anyone to have an accidental career.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you meant to be a real estate associate and they put you in the bankruptcy department, if you turn out to like bankruptcy, that's fantastic.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't, there are measured ways of getting back and pivoting to that practice area that you wanted to get into.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to think about it.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: If your goal is to become an equity partner at a firm, there are various things that you have to do and criteria that you have to meet.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to just wake up one morning and you know have all of those things done.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: You have to plan the big things into smaller chunks so that they fit into your calendar.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then pillar five is learn continuously because we want to stay up to date on what our clients are worried about.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now it seems like AI and uh private equity and law firms, and all kinds you know, there are a lot of issues that people are talking about every time you get together.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can take a CLE class in that.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: You have to meet your CLE credits every year, anyway.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And some people just choose whatever happens to be available before the deadline hits, but you could be a little bit more strategic about it and figure out the things you want to learn.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the last pillar is to create a legacy.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you want to be known for now?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And does your behavior match that?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then create something to look forward to in retirement.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of 84-year-old lawyers hanging out at the office because they don't have relationships with their family, they don't have any friends anymore, they never had any hobbies, they are defined solely by their work, and they have nothing to look forward to if they retire.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to be one of those people.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: What does it look like for you to actually work with the client?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because so much of what you're talking about, I think goes beyond what most people, most lawyers would think of in terms of what they would be talking about with a legal recruiter.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think most people are thinking, well, they'll help me find my next job.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And not thinking, okay, I'm gonna talk about my values, I'm gonna talk about what's important to me, I'm gonna talk about what I want my life to look like, I'm gonna talk about what would actually be a good fit for me with this person who is going to help me find the job that will feel right.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, some of the six pillars work is meant to be a resource that they can use on their own.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the lawyers that aren't able to work with us, like um newly graduated law students or third-year law students or associates or um other lawyers that don't yet have the experience level or the clients to work with us, they can get there using the six pillars.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of how we work with our clients, um I have a very long initial meeting.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: We we don't make it long purposely, we schedule it for a half hour.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: But once um an unhappy lawyer starts talking about what's making him or her unhappy, and they hear that it's something that can be fixed, they want to keep talking about it.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I always block a little extra time on my calendar just in case.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: But we talk about what's going wrong?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you unhappy?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we really drill down.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: I ask for more help.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of help?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want a piece of tech?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want help from the marketing department?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want another associate on your team?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want word processing?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that you ask for?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's think about what would make it easier for you.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes they know exactly what they need.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they know I need a Chicago office.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I turned away a million dollars in business last year, and I could get even more if only we had a Chicago office.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's making me feel unhappy because my clients are frustrated about it.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I want, you know, every lawyer was a straight A student at some point, and they all just want to do a good job.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: They go to work, they try to do a good job for their clients.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if not having a Chicago office makes your client really unhappy and frustrated all the time, you're gonna be unhappy and frustrated.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Some lawyers are in the wrong firm because the firm has a compensation system that rewards different behaviors than what they're doing.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a mismatch, and it doesn't make them wrong and it doesn't make the firm wrong, it just makes the match wrong.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So a lawyer who is a big rainmaker and wants to be out developing those relationships and supervising the work, but not really doing the drafting isn't going to do well at a firm where they have a threshold number of hours for every partner and they're getting a lot of flack for, you know, you have a$10 million book of business, but you didn't hit 1,800 hours, so we're gonna, you know, not pay you more next year or something.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's a mismatch.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or lawyers who really like to cross-sell and cross-market with their colleagues need to be at a firm that has a system for rewarding that because all of the firms talk about cross-selling and cross-marketing, but if lawyers are only rewarded for their individual efforts, it's very hard.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I might ask you to come to a pitch meeting with me and you're a nice person, I'm sure you would say yes the first time, maybe even the second and the third time.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if I ask you every single day for weeks and you only get rewarded for working on your own clients and bringing in new clients for yourself, you're gonna have to say no at some point.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: What if I ask you to go to a week-long conference to pitch with me?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: What if I ask you to fly to California to pitch with me?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, unless there's a way to reward that kind of credit, then it's going to be an issue.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I I see lawyers who have grown differently than their firm and they don't care about the same things anymore, and they don't feel a sense of camaraderie with their partners anymore.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you spend a lot of time at the office, you kind of want to like the people you're with.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they don't have a lot of um of um respect, I guess, or um, they're a little concerned about the way management is going, their ideas aren't taken seriously.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people roll their eyes at the partner meeting when my candidate speaks, and sometimes you're just in the wrong room.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: If every time you go into that room, you're not getting what you're looking for.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the new managing partner only cares about the real estate group and you're um an IP litigator, and you need to be at a firm that cares more about your process.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: So there, you know, we talk about what's going wrong, and we're really very specific.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about how do you like to work?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you like to work in the office remotely?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do you like to work with the team or on your own?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: What could the firm do that they're not already doing to support you?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's business development and marketing or tech or associates or you know, just I need a better legal assistant.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then what's going right?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: What's what's happening at the firm that you want to replicate?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because you've been there a long time or it, you know, or a short time, whatever it is, but it it's not all 100% bad, or you wouldn't be at work today.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: So some of the things you'd like to keep.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, they you know, they have a really great computer system.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I really like this associate I'm working with.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I really like that it's a full service firm and I can help my clients in other areas.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: I really like the way they do this or that.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to add that to our list of what we're looking to find because I'm trying to find the exact right perfect fit for every candidate I work with.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we really want them to feel like they can be happy and successful at the same time.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, whatever their definition of happy and successful is, and it's a judgment-free zone.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of people who feel like they want to spend more time with their family, and then there are some people who just want to work.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I I am not there to judge what makes you happy, I'm there to help you discover it.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we talk about, you know, what is it we're looking for?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then I I help them through the process as they're evaluating.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Does this firm put its money where its mouth is?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do they really do this?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is it really going to be for me?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, to the extent they would like, I I'm always asked, like, which firm should I choose?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you have to work there.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: But but which one would you go to?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: So we do, I I always say I'm part agent, part cheerleader, part therapist, because I get to know the candidates really well over a pretty long period of time.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find that a lot of the rainmakers that come to you have this sense of it's either or I can't be successful and also be happy, or I can't do it at the same time.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: I can I can have it all, but at different stages of my life.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think that's a real problem in the legal profession.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've talked about you have to work all the time, even when you're on vacation, even when you're and and well, at least I made partner, at least I got a raise, at least look at how much money I make.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: I can go on this nice vacation, and my family enjoys it.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or your family does enjoy it, but you're stuck in the business center at the hotel the whole time, and you don't get to have any time off, or you had to cancel and not even go.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I do find that a lot of the really successful rainmakers that I work with are kind of holding on by their fingernails, worried that if they don't work this hard, it'll all go away.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes they're working so hard that they're hurting their work product, just like we said with that 15th draft at three in the morning.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: The the draft from two in the afternoon might have been better.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, even when they make partner, even when they look successful from the outside, some of them still have you know that perfectionist trait, maybe even imposter syndrome, and they are worried that if they don't work these hours, people will find out they're not as good as everyone thought.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I often also wonder if you know the fact that so many of us just go nonstop and we're often simply on autopilot, that it doesn't leave any space for you to recognize that maybe what you wanted before, which maybe you genuinely wanted and it was a great fit, but you know, it's been a few months, a few years, a decade more.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: And now you just want something different because you're a different person now, your circumstances are different.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I I often think back to one of the oddly best experiences that I had was getting my sixth concussion, uh, and I think it was 2018, and it was it was terrible.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the amazing part was well, first I tried to push through it for about a month because I had all these horrifying, you know, ideas of like, well, I'm not successful enough yet, and I'm not where I want to be, and I can't show weakness, and I've pushed through all these other challenges, so I can push through this one too.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And what will people think if I have to take time off to heal my brain?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, after about a month, it became clear I was making myself worse and my plan was not working.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was so alarmed by it.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: But the amazing part was it forced me to be bored for the first time in a really long time.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I started through that boredom to ask myself questions like, why did I go to law school in the first place?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: What was my goal?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want my life to look like?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: What's working right now?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: What's not?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it taught me to incorporate these, you know, pause moments to check in with myself to see if what's happening right now is actually what I want.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: And but I needed to hit my head really hard in order to learn how to slow down in that way.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people have a similar experience where there's a, you know, they need to have a shit hitting the fan moment to learn to pause and realize, wait, is this what I want?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: What is what I want?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know how to figure that out.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's very, very true.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I sadly um there are lawyers who hope to be in a not so uh dramatic car accident on the way to work.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: So they have to go to the hospital and wait around for x-rays.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: It'll just give them a little bit of time, or maybe have some kind of injury that causes them to have to stay just a couple of nights so they could get a couple nights' sleep.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, lawyers aren't getting a chance to turn off that we're 24-7, attached to our email and that sort of thing.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I do hear from a lot of candidates over the summer when they finally do have a little bit of a slowdown and they go on vacation and they start thinking, I'm dreading going back to the office.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or often um the Monday after Thanksgiving, because sometimes people take off Thursday, Friday, and then you know, they're not actually doing work on that Saturday, Sunday.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that four days where they have a moment and they start thinking about it.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not perfect myself.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I am pretty type A from having been a lawyer.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I always want things to go faster.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think if I work harder, it'll be better.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a lot of the same quality as the way I came up with the six pillars was I had RSV and I was so sick that I was sitting at my computer trying to send emails.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: I had no voice, so I couldn't do any calls or Zooms.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was trying to send emails and it wasn't going my way.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm gonna just take some time and read some fun, trashy novels and watch some, you know, Netflix or whatever.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a whole week, a whole work week where I really just dealt with emergency email, and that was like unheard of for the type of schedule that I normally capped.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it helped me to, I think, have one of the best ideas I've had.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: So having some time off.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have a business coach who says that you need some time to rest your brain.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: So she actually advises because a lot of lawyers don't have hobbies because they haven't had time to have hobbies, to think back to childhood.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Did you like coloring?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Did you like baking?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Did you like being outside?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Did you, you know, and and just do some of those things for a few minutes?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I always felt guilty reading for pleasure because I was an English major.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: I went straight to law school.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: I have to learn about marketing and business because I'm running my own company and I'd always be reading something about, you know, business or mindset or something.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: And just taking that week to read things that were fun helped my brain get a little bit of a rest and be more creative when I got back to it.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think lawyers are missing that time and it makes their work kind of a slog instead of really enjoyable.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: What are the results that you've been able to see through these rainmakers that you work with when you help them find a firm that really fits who they are at this stage of life and what they're looking for?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think that a lot of times they say, you know, when I called you, I was really worried about this one problem and I didn't realize how much better it could be.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, of course, you solve the one thing, but everything is better.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's so, I mean, they it's like taking the blinders off and seeing the sunlight.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: They really do feel like I don't work with candidates who don't want to be lawyers anymore.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: I have other resources that I connect them with.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: These are lawyers who really truly enjoy the practice of law, but are having a hard time where they are for one reason or another.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And once they get to a place that is supportive and has the correct resources where they feel appreciated and we take the friction away that was present, they often are just giddy with happiness.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of them get a lot more time back, especially if they're willing to read the book that I send them and follow some of my advice.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them realize that you know they were spinning their wheels sometimes because there wasn't enough help at the last firm and now they have enough, whether it's a better assistant or more associate help or other partners to give things to, you know, they're not buried under their work anymore, and they're able to be more strategic.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, once you're able to have more relaxed conversations with your clients and give them real advice, you become more of a trusted advisor and they become more and more loyal, and they might want to give you and your firm even more work, and it makes you look like a superstar just for you know getting out from under that 12th version of the brief or the the MA document.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it really does have a lot of positive.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and I stay in touch with every candidate.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: I always check in before the first day, after the first day, after the first week or month, but some of them are personal friends now.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I was the first call for you know, the first um partner I placed in in this company was eight years ago.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, she called when it was time to look at her comp for the year, and she wanted to run the numbers by me.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Does that sound about right?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it sounds about right.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next year she called me screaming because she made equity partner, and she said, You're the second person I called.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: I called my husband and then I called you.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I I like to think that you know I help enough that I hope everybody wants to call me when that happens.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: But we do see that the lawyers we work with find more free time and make more money at the same time.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: So they find a way to be either more efficient or be rewarded better for their work because they join a firm that has a compensation system that matches their strengths better or has support for the work that they could have brought in but weren't able to handle at their other firms.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it does feel like a mini vacation for some of them when they get to their new firm.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is there or are there certain aspects?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Of your book that you find people tend to call out as like this is the thing that changed my mindset or made me aware of what was possible?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: The book is told as a business parable.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: It follows Bob Big Law, Sam Solo, and Susie Small Law.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: This volume is mostly about Bob Big Law and how he would like to make an equity partner, but he's already drowning as a non-equity partner.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been told that it people find it relevant in other industries and in other law firm situations.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: There was an accountant who said it was great.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: There were people who practiced as solo practitioners or whatever.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think that the I think pillar one and pillar two are the they make the most difference.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Finding a way to take care of yourself without feeling guilty and without taking real time away from your work and finding a way to work in business development, even if you're already a rainmaker, if you already have 10 million or 20 million dollars in business, could it hurt to have a better way to fit business development into your schedule?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't take over and mean that you don't have any sleep, or maybe there's a way to replicate what you're doing and be more efficient.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we we're always talking about trying some small things, seeing if they work.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: Try something you don't like it, you can try something else.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's really um it's meant to be customizable, it's it's built on that 0.1 amount of time, usually.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would say getting six minutes extra of sleep a night might not be as good as trying for 15, but you know, that's that's up to the individual.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um and that that seems to be what I hear about the most, although it depends where they are in their life.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: I heard from somebody that pillar six changed his life because he wasn't sure looking forward to retirement, how that was gonna look.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And now he has some things to think about and to get excited about.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it really depends on the reader.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think certainly in this moment for me, I would be most attached to boundaries, which I think is pillar three.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm now much better at them.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's one that a lot of us as lawyers really struggle with is you know, saying no and putting ourselves first and understanding that, you know, I can't do my best work for you if I don't put myself first, even though saying no right now feels like you're not doing the right thing, you know, so often, it's a hard one to get comfortable with.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I also wonder if when people are coming to you, how if they're really ready to make a change, um and how much fear is playing into sort of what's happening?
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think a lot of the time people are they know they're miserable where they are, and they feel like this is horrible, I've got to get out, but it's the horrible that I know.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people don't know that amazing is even available.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you completely.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: Lawyers are very risk-averse, and a lot of lawyers will say it's kind of like I a sunk cost thing.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've built up goodwill here over 10 years.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm well respected, or you know, they don't beat me every day.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's not so horrible.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: If I go somewhere else, I have to start from nothing.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what if it's terrible?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the people that I'm moving are rainmakers.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're moving with many years of useful experience and a client base.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: So they're not starting from zero, they're not starting as a first-year associate.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: They're coming in with a vibrant practice that the firm is really happy to have.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And firms these days are getting so much better at onboarding and integration that they don't let people fall through the cracks anymore.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's very expensive to bring on a lateral partner who doesn't stay.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: So firms are very invested in finding out what is it that you need and how can we meet that need.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm very invested in making sure that I'm only introducing them to firms that are able to say yes to the things that they need.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so normally it's the whole thing is so much easier than everyone thinks it is.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, certainly it's easier to never change jobs and just go to the same job every day.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: But to the extent that it's making you miserable and it's getting in the way of your mental and physical health and your personal relationships outside the office, and you're not even enjoying practicing law anymore, it's worth it to just have a few conversations and see if maybe there's something better out there.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can't see the outside the label from inside the bottle, they always say.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, most lawyers have only worked at a certain number of firms.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: They may have a friend who works somewhere else, they may know a little bit, but they don't know so much about what's possible in terms of different kinds of resources that other firms have or compensation systems that would reward them more easily for their contributions, or just the culture of, you know, some firms are a little bit nicer to work at if you're a team-oriented person, or nicer to work at if you're more of an individual worker.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just having that right thing makes sense.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I do have a lot of false starts with people who come back years later.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's usually somebody who has time to think on a summer vacation or the Friday after Thanksgiving, or when something goes very, very wrong, or they don't get that promotion or bonus they were looking for.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: They call, we have a conversation, they get excited, and then something goes right.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: They're working on something interesting, they get a new associate, something happens and it's not so bad.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we may have several conversations over a number of years before they make the decision to move forward.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to convince anybody that they want to leave.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, a lot of times I help them to have a business conversation with their current firm to ask for what they're looking for so that they don't have to leave.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes the thing they want is just not possible to get in that particular firm.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if they really want to be happier, staying at the firm isn't the way to do it.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you had a magic wand and you could improve the legal industry in one way, what would you do or what would you change?
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess everybody always talks about the hours.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we now that we have AI and other tech tools and we're worried about the leverage that, you know, the more junior associates used to get to bill time on this or that or the other thing.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: If we take the volume away, it would be great for me if I could wave a magic wand and instead of spending hundreds of hours on electronic discovery and due diligence and whatever it is that we used to train our juniors on, we gave them some business development coaching and we gave them a small budget and we told them take one of the people you know from college or law school out for coffee or out for lunch or do a LinkedIn post or think about which conference you want to go to, or think about what you want to become an expert in.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we maybe even brought in somebody to the firm or had somebody at the firm who was very adept at this.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we put our money where our mouth was.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: So every firm says it would be great, except for maybe the top five firms that have more work than they're ever gonna know what to do with.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: But most firms, even AMLA 100 firms, would like to have new clients, right?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: They would like to have lawyers who can bring in new clients, but we're not doing anything to encourage that.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if we give credit that counted toward your hours bonus for your business generation study and business generation activity, we might convince lawyers that they want to do it.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, one of the videos we did with a lawyer was talking about the J curve.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, during the time when if both of us start on the same day as first year associates, if you bill as many hours as you possibly can, and I take some of those hours and do business development and bill the rest of those hours for a little bit of time, you look better because you're billing and collecting on hours, and I'm investing in a little bit of business development.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: But when that investment pays off, I'm going to end up way ahead.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if firms were behind that, instead of each individual lawyer having to make that assessment for themselves, then we might be able to develop all-around lawyers who knew how to bring in a client and keep them happy, who knew how to run their own practice, and might not have to rely on being the hardest working associate at the firm, but could be bringing in revenue in different ways.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that that's a nice compliment.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's brilliant.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's fantastic.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else you'd like to share that we haven't covered?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I'd like to share that it's never too late to do any of these things.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you can start from point one.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I get calls from people who say I'm 50 and I've never brought in clients before.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's too late for me.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's never too late.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's never too late to decide you want to change practice areas or you want to become a business developer or you want to see your family more.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's always something you can do.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it might take a little bit of communication and it might take a couple of conversations that seem uncomfortable until you have them and you feel so relieved, but it's really never too late.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there are coaches out there that can help you with all these things, and great therapists and doctors that can help you with all of these things.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, uh, we have a framework to start with, but certainly if you recognize that there's something to spend more time on, there are a host of different experts.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: And we have a resources page that names some of them, but I'm sure that a lot of people like you and others in the industry can um help or or recommend some others.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love that so much.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's never too late.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, I agree.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Jennifer.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: I loved this conversation.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad that you're talking about these issues.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope this helped someone.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it will.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: It absolutely will.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoyed.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: Please be sure to check out the links in the show notes and to rate and subscribe the podcast.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you have a wonderful day, and please remember to be kind to yourself.