Latest / Every Pawprint! Every Story! / What if Grief starts before Goodbye: with author Jayne Law

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What if Grief starts before Goodbye: with author Jayne Law · Every Pawprint! Every Story!

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everybody.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh welcome to another episode of Every Paw Print, Every Story.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Dan Popovic.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: I am your host.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: For those of you new listeners to this podcast, you might be wondering what the heck is this?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: What is this podcast about?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: What is every paw print?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Every story.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, great question.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: What this podcast is about, it's a weekly conversation space where people honor pets they've lost, celebrate the joy pets bring, and support one another through pet grief.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Each episode centers on a guest memories, the rituals that keep those pets present in daily life, and the lessons of love and loss that pets teach us.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: The goal with this podcast is to inspire, guide, and support each other.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I am excited today to welcome a very, very, very special guest, Jane.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: How are you, Jane?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: How are you, Dan?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then for the listeners on this podcast, Jane and I connected on LinkedIn of all places.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, great, great place to connect, right?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Jane, Jane is the founder of Saude Pause.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, I pronounced that right.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's Saudade Pause.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's uh basically a word that means uh, you know, nostalgia, kind of like uh when sailors like left the port.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of like this feeling in Portuguese.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's really um, it's really quite meaningful uh when we talk about pet grief and pet loss and bereavement and the whole journey.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's powerful.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that yeah, that that's a good segue.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because as you mentioned, I you know, I know you're dedicated to helping pet caregivers navigate their pet's final stage and beyond.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um so excited to talk more about that, but naturally, you know, open up with a fun generic question before getting into that.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I saw a fur kid walking in the background.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Who do we have, you know, as part of the family today?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So at the moment, um, so both of my fur kids actually passed away last year, uh, six months apart.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as my gateway back into you know pet caregiving, um, I decided to foster.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um originally, funny enough, uh, I went through a rescue looking to, you know, help out, you know, maybe a disabled dog or, you know, a dog with some kind of impairment and whatnot.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And instead they gave me a puppy, a one-year-old German shepherd puppy.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I really actually still don't really know how to take care of it.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Funny enough.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I study pet hospice, you know, I do all this stuff, and they give me a puppy of all things.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, so he actually has finally successfully found a forever home, uh, which he will be going to tomorrow.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very happy to share that with everyone.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: What is his name?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Jordan.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he doesn't really respond on to Jordan.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we've been trying Gunther, Rufus, George, Albert, and nothing seems to stick, but I'm sure that he will find his ending soon enough.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: The name's not sticking, okay.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but exciting to find find the new home.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you but you said puppy.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, how old how old is he today?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: He's a year and a half.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in Dubai, they winded up finding him on a highway.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the us what we assume is that he probably came from a breeder because he has a lame leg, but everything shows that he's a show dog, you know, and that he is, you know, he's very kept.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: He's very, you know, properly show dog style.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So because of that lame leg, they probably put him out to, you know, on the road uh to be found for uh the rescues and stuff like that.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's always heartbreaking.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I know with German shepherds, hip dyspliacia is pretty common.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: So he does he have hip dysplasia or no?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned show dog, so no, he doesn't have hip dysplasia, thank goodness.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but this kid does enjoy chasing after his own tail.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: He loves like, you know, finding crickets, he loves chasing birds and everything imaginable.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, he is proper puppy.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's the showman, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Chasing the ch the tail.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: A silly derpy kid, but you know, I'm very happy to have him here.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's been with me for now, I think about three months.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a little bit like now that you know he finally has his family, it's a little bit of anticipatory grief because, you know, he he won't be with me anymore.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: He, you know, someone else will take care of him.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I do know that the next family, you know, we vetted him very much, or we vetted them very much, you know, uh, checked out their housing, you know, checked out, you know, the vet that they're going to be using.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that he's going to be going off into a very lovely home that will take care of him properly.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then for the listeners, I wanted, I don't think I mentioned this in the beginning.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a copy of your book, A Field Guide for Pet Caregivers.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so for the listeners of this uh podcast, there will be a link to it in the description of where you can find it, where you can learn more about it, uh, really your journey, you know, how you're helping others.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And speaking of journey, if it's okay with you, I kind of want to read for the listeners a couple of paragraphs that caught me that I feel like is a good segue.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned losing a couple of pets recently, but I I'm looking as I'm reading the book, I'm thinking there was loss earlier on in life prior to these recent ones.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a fair statement?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: From the past two for last year, uh yeah, there were uh not so much for kids, but more so human losses.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yes.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear which passages resonated with you best.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, here we go.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: We'll jump into it.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: So um and this is random, so it may it'll resonate with you, and then I know as readers start to read, but um, so in your personal journey, you mentioned when one of my dogs naturally passed away suddenly at eight years old, the shock was deeply traumatic.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: My second dog became my anchor, supporting me until he too passed away a couple months later at 17 through euthanasia.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Each each loss felt different, each goodbye revealed revealed just how little I truly understood about grief and love.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: It left me humbled and isolated.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: What surprised me most was the pain that arrived even before their passing, a sorrow that stole my sleep, and made every moment bittersweet.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I questioned every choice, every feeling, every sign, every hope, every instinct, just everything imaginable.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: To me, though those two paragraphs are powerful, a really, you know, hit hit home, departed with me.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about those two.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: So one of them was uh eight and the other was 17, is that right?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the eight-year-old, um, her name was Bella, and uh she was a rescued dog.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I got her when I was in Hong Kong, and uh funny enough, it was uh, you know, when you're a young adult and you know, you go through your 20s and your 30s, um, I was staying in apartments, and so you know, the apartments that I chose weren't uh pet friendly.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when I finally moved to a new apartment complex, and then the lift like opened and I saw a dog, and I was like, ooh, pet friendly, yes.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that night I had like 30 tabs open on like different rescues, different dogs that I was interested in.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I went through, you know, the whole lot of them.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I saw every dog that I could, and I finally met Bella.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I can't explain it better, but I feel like all pet parents understand this.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like the moment that I saw her, it was just I was meant for you and you were meant for me.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna take you home now.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what keep going, keep going.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, so so what why did up happening is that we had a lot of adventures, right?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: She was a rescue.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I rescued her at four years old.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and I think there's always that rule of three, especially for rescues, which is like, you know, you cross the three-day mark, they kind of know, oh, I'm gonna stay in this house.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Then they have the three-week mark, and then they their personality kind of changes, kind of like, okay, maybe yeah, you're my new owner.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of got you.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's three months later, and you know, something clicks, and for them, they become relaxed, they know that this is home, they know that you're, you know, their parent now, you know, and they know that you're gonna take care of them.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a wonderful thing because at the end of that three months, she just all the personality came out, and the girl was a queen.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't and I don't know how to better say it, but she had like um this cleanliness about her where she was a bit OCD.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like she wouldn't come through the front door without me wiping her paws, you know, from the dirt and the sidewalk and everything of the sort.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: The girl winded up like uh standing on her front two paws, kind of in a front paw handstand, because she didn't like peeing, like on all fours.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like she didn't like being close to the ground or anything.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And she would always like um, yeah.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she was just so funny with all of her her hygiene stuff, like that I can't even explain it any more than that.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, she was just hilarious.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, Bella, what was the what was the breed?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: I might have missed that.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So she is a Hong Kong village dog.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I went on Amazon, I've I bought like numerous DNA kits to figure out what a Hong Kong village dog is.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I spent 200 bucks just to figure it out, and the DNA tests all came back saying that she's a Hong Kong village dog.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I still don't know what that means.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's mutt all the way through, but you know.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, that's very cool.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're very interesting.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so then as she's using the bathroom, she's just on her front legs and her backside is just up in the air.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's a Cirque du Soleil kind of moment, you know, like so.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: She's just she always used to, I think she thought she was more human than dog.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: So she would always like hang back and she would like hang back with me and she'd like observe all the dogs around the dog park or you know, around the area and things like that.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: She wouldn't really socialize much, she was very anti-social.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so she she was queen, and she was queen for me, she was queen for you know, uh my family later on in life, and you know, she just uh was very was very queen like for the most part.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I loved it.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Was that was there a nickname in there, Princess or Queen?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, not actually.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was just Bella.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so did you get to name her, or was that is that the name she came with?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the name that the rescue winded up giving her.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so Bella had like five other siblings, and um her she had another sister, so they winded up calling them Bella and Gigi Hadid for the models, and then uh so I winded up keeping the name Bella because I felt that it was you know appropriate.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: She she recognized the name, she loved the name, and so I winded up keeping it.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll I'll I'll play a dance card here.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned named after the models.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: You asked me on that one.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: When you say the models, what do you mean by that?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're there the models like the like the Kylie Jenners, like the you know, all of them.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um the now new generation of models.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even think that they're new anymore, but yeah.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like the Kardashians, like the Kardashian models, okay.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, no Kendall Jenners and stuff like that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So they're all best friends, by the way, apparently.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So well, no wonder she was a princess and a little diva, right?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: If she's named after a model.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: She probably took it, took on the aura after she got her name.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um so any any fun, like gosh, routines or rituals that um, aside from the bathroom breaks that you mentioned, that always brought a smile or any any like vacation trips you might have taken that just kind of stand out.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, she was she was a funny kid.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like we would try, you know, as as parents do, like I try to take her out to the beach only to find out that she doesn't like water.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: So she wouldn't come, like she wouldn't go near the water at all.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like you would find her more in the forest.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, fine.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I take her to the forest, but then she doesn't like to get dirty.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: So then she's not rolling in mud, she's not, you know, getting herself dirty by any means.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we would really just go out to the coffee shops mainly, and she likes to observe and she likes to see other people and see other dogs.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: She just, you know, kind of keeps her cool, very queen-like.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So she was quite funny in that sense.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: But um, no, some of the routines that we had, I think my favorite, like even looking in in hindsight, is really just kind of waking up in the morning, right?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's those ordinary moments in a day that you know we we after their passing, we we grow to love, right?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: At the time we may think it's annoying, but you know, now you look back on it and then you just love it.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember like um she wouldn't sleep in my bed.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she would wake up in the morning, though, we'd all wake up and then she'd jump onto my bed and she'd be the most annoying thing ever.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And she would sit and prop herself like right in between my legs and just sleep there.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: But this is like, you know, a 30-pound dog.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, when you put yourself in between my legs like that, like I can't move, I'm stuck, you know, like right.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh the other dog who's a miniature poodle, like he always loved to be like a cat.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so he'd sit on my chest.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so bubbles would just sit on my chest until I woke up, you know, and kind of like sit on my head, sit on my, you know, on my shoulder, making it very hard to move around, like when I'm sleeping.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: But then, you know, he's kind of a cat that way.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so good translation.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: So bubbles is the one in that in the passage as well that made it 17 years.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: He so he was an old man, yes.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: So he was 17 years old.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: For him, I didn't really rescue him.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: That one was quite a sad story.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I had a couple that was friends of mine, um, and Bubbles was their dog.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um my friend winded up getting breast cancer and she passed away.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, in that, in that uh, in that story, the bubbles became my friend's dog, which is the the guy, and he winded up getting leukemia.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in that he had to go to treatment, and so I said that I would be happy to take bubbles on uh with Bella, and um and that was kind of it.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so we had many adventures together, and that's how I met Bubbles and started taking care of Bubbles and that whole lot.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So uh my friend is okay now, which is the best news um that we probably had.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in terms of that, you know, caregiving role, it was definitely co-parenting because you know, everything that Bubbles went through was with me and not with his actual pet parent.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a lot of sharing information.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was a lot of, hey, what do you think about this?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was a lot of different discussions during his end of life, which made it very different from Vella, who was my my actual dog, you know.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, so it was uh Bubbles was lovely.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: He was 17, he he chased after baguettes.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can't explain it.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like it would be in my shopping bag, and then he would start like, you know, he would just gun for these baguettes.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: And um, he was just a really funny kid, the exact opposite of Bella, who he was more extroverted, he was more social, he loved to meet people, you know.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: He just was the exact opposite of uh of my dog, which was also very wonderful to have that yin and yang kind of thing in uh in a family, right?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: So bubbles will go uh roll around in the mud and then Bella would look at him like, stay away from me.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, bubbles was just one of those like super carefree, like would step in his own poop and not even think about it, you know?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like love it.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love the name.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Any any rhyme or reason behind the name, I'm curious.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that it was because my friend's daughter chose bubbles as the name, thought he was very bubbly, thought that he had a great bubbly personality, so uh so the child wounded up naming him Bubbles.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And Bubbles was a mini poodle, you said.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, he was, and uh he he came with like a whole bunch of issues.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like the kid had like teeth infection, gum infection, he had like cushing's disease, he had like all of it, but he was such a soldier, like he just kept going, and like every year was always such a gift because you would think, oh yeah, he's 14, he's 15, 16.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and even at 17, he was uh he was very much, you know, when he was cognizant, like he he was very funny and he was very silly.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, just doing weird things around the house, like you know, running around the table waiting for his uh meal to be fed and everything of the sort.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So he was uh 17, he was still running around.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: So 17 is a phenomenal lifespan for a fur kid.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's uh amazing.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we so Bella, so she passed at eight.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um natural causes.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, let's talk talk about that.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: How how was how was that experience?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: So my partner and I decided to leave Hong Kong with both of the with both of our fur kids, um and didn't think anything of it.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Eight years old to me um was still a very healthy age for a medium-sized dog uh who was about 30, 30 pounds.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, what we had expected was that maybe the 17-year-old mini poodle wouldn't make it, you know.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: But when we were in France, she started acting up.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: So she wasn't eating.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, her her poop became diarrhea and it became black.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so we started thinking, oh, what is it the food?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is it parasites?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And during that time we went to go visit two vets.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they both said, Why are you giving her raw food?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you taking her to these areas?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, kind of in a way blaming me that, you know, I wasn't being a proper responsible pet parent.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until the third week that, you know, we got her blood panels, and all of a sudden everything flared up and it was all red.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the doctor or the vet winded up saying, hey, I think you need to go into a more specialized kind of hospital because because uh sorry about that, um, because she needs to go and get checked out and she needs a biopsy and she needs to get checked out in terms of what she has.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the really sad part about it was because I didn't speak the language, because I wasn't familiar with the veterinary hospitals in France, I couldn't make the decisions in a way on my own because everything had to be translated.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I felt even more isolated in those moments.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually, she was hospitalized on a Friday, and the vet said, Oh, we'll do all the tests that we need to do, and you can come and visit her over the weekend once for 15 minutes, and then we'll see you again on Monday because Sunday, you know, there they were just closed.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so Saturday rolled along.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I saw her and she was gone.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: She was from going from 30 pounds, she was a little under 20 pounds by that time.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: She just lost so much weight, she had IV, IV drips, she had everything like in her, and it was a terrible experience.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I saw her, I basically just whispered to her, you know, if you want to go.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I fully support it.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to stay, I will pay as much as I can to support you through chemotherapy, to support you through any of it.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you make the decision.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you stay, then you stay.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you go, I'm I'll be fine.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have my partner.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I have the kids, you know, I'll be okay.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um the next day at 5 a.m., 6 a.m., we received two missed calls.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was basically the hospital calling us, telling us that she had heart failure and they had already resuscitated her twice.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I told them, well, if that's the case, then please let her go because she should not have been resuscitated.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: If she wanted to go, then she will go.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um I remember because the kids, as kids, we were putting on their shoes, we were getting them ready and everything of the sort.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: I stood out at a window, and it was the most beautiful, absolutely gorgeous day that you can imagine.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: The bluest skies, the most loveliest, fluffiest clouds ever.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And in my mind, I said, you know, what a day to choose to die.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably the most beautiful day, you know, to pass away.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we received a call from the hospital maybe a minute later, even less than that.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it said, and basically they said that she passed.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, I think permission or actually, you know, giving your pet permission is so important that they don't hold on to life because you want them to stay.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you will always want your pet to stay.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is never a question, you know.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I believe that if I didn't have that conversation with her, that she would have just tried her best to stay.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't want her to suffer.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, her to go through such such a such a passing, yes, it was sad.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm glad she was able to do it on her own accord at her own time when she was ready.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm more at peace with her having a natural passing like that than I am with euthanasia, which is you know what I had chosen for bubbles, you know.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um euthanasia plays so many tricks with your with your head in a sense that, you know, who are we to to choose that time and that place, you know, for a being to to pass like that?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so much shame, there's regret, there's guilt that comes with all of that, um, which I will take any day, you know, um, given what had happened and everything of the sort, you know, we we don't want to see our animals suffer or anything.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, even for me personally, if human euthanasia was possible and if I'm, you know, okay with it, like with ever with whatever disease I have, I probably would choose euthanasia as well.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it would be my choice, right?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: It wouldn't be someone making the choice for me, which is what we do for our pets.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: So right, right.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's powerful with Bella, and I'll I'll come back to that one.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, bubble.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: So as you mentioned, euthanasia.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um what what led to the decision?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Did you just see a significant decline in health?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I mean, talk a little bit about that because I think you you mentioned one thing about the guilt, right, that people feel afterwards, which certainly understand.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um but what what kind of led you to that path with bubbles?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: So so after Bella had passed in France, or let me back it up a bit more.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Bubbles, I think he's been he's been in new homes, I think, at least four times over the 17 years.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like the kid, you know, uh, and no one wanted him to, right?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: His previous owner passed away.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: This the second one, you know, had leukemia, couldn't, you know, take care of him because he had to go to treatments and whatnot.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he was actually rescued previously too.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, the kid went through multiple households.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think when he came to me, he became Bella's shadow.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he was very much, you know, following her all around.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he had um, you know, he had all his issues of him.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: But what after Bella passed, I felt that there was quite a change with him.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, he no longer had his friend, he no longer had another dog to sleep next to.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I do believe that pets mourn other pets.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um we then after France, we moved to Dubai, and uh all the issues started coming up like tenfold, you know.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, his cushions medicine wasn't really working anymore.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then he winded up getting a collapsing trachea where he couldn't really breathe, or he had, you know, issues with his lungs and things like that, uh, just the amount of air.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we bought him a nebulizer where originally, you know, we had to nebulize him maybe an hour a day.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, later on became like three hours a day, six hours a day.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And when he wasn't being nebulized, basically he had this goose honk, which was which was wild because it was so loud, like our next door neighbors even, you know, complained and things like that from like you know, a five-pound like mini poodle, like uh doing a goose honk, and we get like complaints from our complaints from our neighbors, but the thing that drove me to the decision of euthanasia was pure fear, Dan.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was fear.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot explain it any more than that, especially that Bella had passed away in January, and all of Bubbles' symptoms and all the issues started coming up around March.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And his decline was so quick.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it was, I think, a little maybe in May, where I just decided, no, like, I'm not gonna let him die in a hospital.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna let him die by himself.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to allow what happened to Bella happen to Bubbles as well.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I decided he's going to have one awesome day, you know, French fries, you know, beach and everything of the sort.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I made it into a day.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was an at-home euthanasia.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was um, it was a very interesting experience because I found myself asking more questions than people were offering information, you know.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: I had to be my own investigator with oh, well, what happens in Dubai, you know, when a pet passes?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are there funeral parlors?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are there, is there only one?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is there, you know, like how are you gonna give him back to me?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, no one, I felt that no one willingly provided that information, which is why I'm so gun-ho about, hey, educate yourself on the process so that there are no surprises.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because where I was in terms of that fear and in that caregiver fatigue, I was just so exhausted from taking care of him.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't really think.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Everything was, okay, fine.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just something else I need to do for my pet.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, fine, you know, like I'll I'll go through the process, I'll go through this medication, I'll go through, you know, whatever you guys tell me to do because I'm just so tired, you know.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think with all of that, you know, unfortunately with the, well, fortunately with the at-home euthanasia, the whole process went very well.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was only until after uh he had passed away, um I had asked them, hey, do you have like, you know, a body bag for a dog?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you have like a cardboard box?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you have something like, you know, respectful, you know, um, for him?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, Oh, you can just wrap him in that towel, you know, this used towel.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was like, not very happy about it, but I was like, okay, it's a towel.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then they were like, Oh, we'll take him.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, no, you're not gonna take him.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'll take him down to, you know, the car and things like that, thinking that maybe they would put him in the front seat or maybe, you know, in the back seat.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then they were like, no, you can put him in the trunk, you know.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the trunk when she opened it, it had like tires, it had, you know, like the tools and stuff like that.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, maybe like, you know, I'll put him in the back seat if you don't mind, you know.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's kind of how it went.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And um, the whole process went went, you know, he got cremated.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when I got his ashes back, it was in tinfoil.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and no one, no one really thinks about like these minor details, but you know, to see that your pet was, you know, in tinfoil, it's kind of like, you know, baking your fish or, you know, like something for the barbecue, like your corn on the cob kind of stuff, you know, and it's it's not a nice feeling to have.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I find that both of the end of end of life experiences for Bella and Bubbles were just so different.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that afterwards I decided to educate myself properly and to get certified in pet hospice.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: How could I how could I have done better for Bubbles?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And how can I do better for my future pets?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of my thought process behind all the emotions that I went through, all the experiences that I went through.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um so yeah, that's kind of where I am now and uh why I am an end-of-life consultant for caregivers, you know, how I support veterinary clinics to improve how caregivers deal with their pets' end of life.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that, you know, when you understand that journey, we can make better decisions out of love and not fear.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that helps to change everything for your pet, making better decisions for your pet, and you know, all that grief that happens afterwards for the caregiver.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um phenomenal.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a phenomenal, phenomenal story.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like this experience, um, you know, as relatable and I'm sure relatable with a lot of listeners to this show has inspired you to do more, obviously, from the learning experience, how it helped you heal, guide, get answers, proper answers to now how you can kind of support others through a similar journey.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I know we're getting close to the the the end of our segment, which I I we could probably keep going, or we'll have to do another part two segment and you know, bringing you back and just kind of keep expanding upon this.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um the the one one other question, or I had two more questions for you.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: One of them was really around, you know, your your story with Bella resonated, um, similar, you know, with Marley.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, my story, right?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And what's inspired me to do this and and the things that I'm doing.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um did you feel like that was uh um unexpected that you know one day she's fine, the next day all of a sudden feels like she's gone.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Did it did it kind of feel like that?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, I know you talk a lot about anticipatory grief.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you probably didn't really have any of that with her because it feels like it might have been more sudden.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think um with her and with my own family, like human family and things like that.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: My dad passed away in a car accident.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Bella passed away within within three weeks.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Only after her passing did we find out that she had aggressive lymphoma.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think in my lifetime, shocking deaths should no longer be shocking, you know, in a weird, in a weird, morbid way.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um but of course it was definitely shocking, you know.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I didn't even know what she had, and she had already passed, you know.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was presented a bill for a disease that I I had no idea on how to on what it was, you know.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it but again, because she passed naturally, you know, I believe in the universe that, you know, she passed away the way that she was meant to.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as much as a shock as it was, it was how to get back into a new routine.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, rather than saying, you know, life, you know, how dare you take her away from me, but it was definitely a shock nonetheless, um, losing her for sure.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then as we come to the inner conclude on this episode, any gosh, any advice that you would give someone who's grieving right now?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, there's a lot, but uh um, I think obviously don't let fear take over.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's mainly, I think, forgiveness, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you have to learn that you did the best you could at the time with the information that you had under the circumstances.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: We love our pets so much, but we also have to give grace to ourselves that we can only do so much as well, right?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Under the circumstances, because everyone has them, you know.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: As you're taking care of your dying pet, you also have responsibilities to your kids.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: You also have responsibilities to your to your own human parents, and you're only you only have so much time in a day, you know, and you still need to sleep, you still need to eat.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's really just that.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just forgive yourself and just believe that you you did it out of love and you did as much that as you could at the time for your pet.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: No, thank thank you.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, thank you for sharing this with us, um, you know, with these stories, these stories of care.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then again, you know, for the listeners out there, you know, each episode is a reminder that grief and gratitude can coexist and that remembering is a form of love.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, I want to encourage everybody to go pick up Jane's book, A Field Guide for Pet Caregivers, um, in you know, where she's talking a lot about anticipatory grief, caregiver fatigue.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and Jane, I just uh definitely get you back and talk more about this in future episodes.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Just um hang on out, hang out with me one more second.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: But just wanted to really thank you again for your time today.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me, Dan.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to our next chat.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.