Latest / Pod Therapy / #380: Childhood Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Self Esteem, Assessment for ADHD

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#380: Childhood Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Self Esteem, Assessment for ADHD · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Can we look at the forty forty or is it
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: just a waste of time.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: I'm not ready to I'll let you know when I am.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: I'll let you know, but I am ready across. But
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: you've done nothing on that. I tried to swim with
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: the dolphins. My wife said no except for my father's dick.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Your father's dick. It's on a thing.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: It counts.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like somewhere on.
• 0:22
  Speaker 4: There is don't laugh, but I have Jim's forty under
• 0:25
  Speaker 4: forty my notes up there.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: You go here it is. It's not weird.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: From fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. This is pot therapy, real people,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: real problems, and real therapists. You could submit your questions
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: anonymously at pod therapy dot net or email us at
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: pod therapy guys at gmail dot com.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: The wait is over. Whitney and Nick are back. Yeah,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: welcome back all of the listeners who left for a week.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Ye oh, no podcasting from the churn. And that's Jim.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: That's Whitney on next time for some pot. Well, welcome
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: back from your disciplinary leave. I hope that you both
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: learned your life. We learned nothing. I hope that this
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: never has to happen again. We can put this ugly
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: business behind us. Whoever the anonymous pod therapy whistleblower who
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: reported the bullying, uh, whoever they are, They're brave and
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: I'm glad that HR director Jacob took control of the situation.
• 1:19
  Speaker 5: I'd take my position seriously, firm but fair. My position
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: being sitting.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Also not wearing pants as HR director. So yeah, if
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: you would like to hear where Nick and Whitney were
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: in the world and you're about their adventure, okay, Patreon
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: dot com, slash and special thanks to our guests, our
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: guest therapist last week. That was a lot of fun,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: really great time with Janet, Kelly Ann and doctor Jared.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Really cool backgrounds, you know, different takes. That was really cool.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: It was good they did. They did a good job. Yeah.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Not easy to show up. Don't like people sitting in
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: my chair. Okay, it move stuff around. Yeah, but they
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: did a good job. They did. But you are an enigma.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I will never figure you out in a mystery Jim,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: as they say.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Because for eight years you have been just like God.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: I don't want to tell anybody about this podcast, about
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: this podcast.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: And then I see on Facebook, Yeah, on the Internet.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: I've got a podcast. Can somebody come on? It's like, yeah,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: I almost posted. No, no, I know that it's not his.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: I almost posted and then deleted it like three times,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: and then like I finally was sitting there and I
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: was like, dude, I don't like shows that are just
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: two people. It's such a long like ninety minutes or
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: whatever to fill in. It's just it's a slog. And
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: it's like, you like to know the ping off people.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Jacob and I have done it and we get it done,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: but just I don't know, it's just it's not the same.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: It's just it's a lot of lifting. And so I
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: was like, you know what, fuck this, Like I want
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: to bring into the people. I just want to have
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: people to ping off of. And they did great. But
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I tell you what, that that was very scary. It
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: is interesting. So one thing that happened when I posted that,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: I was so scared, Like I posted and thought fuck,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Like I immediately regretted. I went to go delete it,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: but I was like, no, bitch, you've already deleted it
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: three times, Like let it stay for an hour and
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: see what happens and then delete it. And like an
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: hour later, this thing had so many likes, so many comments,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Like if you go through the comments this post, I
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: was shocked at how many likes and our community were
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: like fuck, yes, I want to do this. This is great.
• 3:33
  Speaker 6: Like I started listening to this and I'm like, wow,
• 3:35
  Speaker 6: like there's a lot of positive feedback.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Getting comments on Facebook is not an issue. Okay, it's
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: getting positive comment right.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: And they were all And that's what I was dangling
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: on because if one person had said even the slightest thing,
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: like even if it was just like shut up. No,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know about this.
• 3:53
  Speaker 6: I don't know if this sounds like a good idea,
• 3:55
  Speaker 6: maybe this shouldn't exist, or oh I'm looking through these
• 3:57
  Speaker 6: titles of these episodes and I don't know how I feel.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: I would immediately panicked and deleted it. No, not only that,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: it would have been the end of the show.
• 4:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, I would have yeah, called you crying like, hey,
• 4:07
  Speaker 6: you got to bring in another Whitney.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I'm out of here. I can't do this anymore. It's
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: all going downhill. Man. No, it turned out really really nice.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that was super cool. And man, I tell
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: you what, like we ended up having like god, probably
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: ten or fifteen therapists reach out directly and say, hey,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I have started listening to this. This is great. I
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: love the theory and I absolutely want to do the show.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: And so I ended up like just picking three that
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: had reached out kind of first. But yeah, a lot
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: of other therapists in the community, and like I got
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: to exchange information with them and learn about their backgrounds,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and like it was really cool. And also, we're fucking now.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: I think that's where.
• 4:45
  Speaker 7: Out there there it is.
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: That's all you knew therapists out there to listen to
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: this show for the first time.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: I want to be the first to welcome you. Yes, welcome.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: It's a pod there.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: There not liking where this is going. This is what
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: we do, is what we do. Welcome you aboard. So
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: it's really cool. So thank you to everybody in there
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: that reached out. Welcome to new colleagues that have tuned
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: into the show and are given it a chance. And
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I have not written me saying anything should it yet
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: please be very gentle with me. I am a delicate flower.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: I will wilt like I will be destroyed like Whitney's
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: orange blossom.
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: I feel like we should introduce ourselves though for our
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: new listeners out there. So if you're hearing this voice,
• 5:26
  Speaker 5: this is Jim Jobn talking.
• 5:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I am your friend and colleague Jim Jovin.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: This is.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: If you hear this voice, this is also Jim and
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: lady Jim, go ahead, why your voice? She went to
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: like misdoubt fire.
• 5:50
  Speaker 7: That's exactly who I was channeling.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: I'm Whitney, Jacob and Nick. Thank you for listening. All right,
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: So we got some great questions this week, and it's
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: good to have the full team back so we can
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: dig into these things. First, one is my stepdaughter a
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: narcissist And just as an FYI, this did need to
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: be shortened down, so we've kind of got it distilled
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: into its finer points. But dear pod Therapy, longtime fan
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: of the show here. I've debated for a while now
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: if I wanted to write to you about this, but
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: after a few conversations with my husband, he encouraged me
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: to do so as a way to help him put
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: the situation into words too. We're concerned about his youngest daughter,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: who will call Doe, who's seven years old, especially regarding
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: her motivations and behavior. He shares fifty to fifty custody
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: with his X and co parenting is generally smooth. However,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: it's clear Doe is favored by her mother, often at
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: Jane's eleven year old expense. Jane has started to notice
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: this dynamic and has asked for help managing her sister's behavior.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: So, just to clarify, because I didn't do a good
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: job of shortening this, Jane is the older daughter. Doe
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: is the younger.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Daughter their husband's kids.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Yes, okay, got it, And the younger daughter is being
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: doted upon.
• 7:02
  Speaker 7: Yeah, right right, The question is about the youngers, yes.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: Right now.
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  Speaker 2: Both girls have ADHD and are in therapy. While that
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: explained some challenges, we feel something deeper is going on
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: with dough. I've been in their lives for three years,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: and while I'm not a parental figure, I help with
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: structure and care. This semi outsider role has helped me
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  Speaker 2: spot things my husband couldn't see. From the beginning. I
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: noticed Doe only behaves well when the focus is entirely
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: on her or when she gets her way. Otherwise, she
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: tries to bring everyone down to match her mood. Her
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: behavior raises serious concerns. A few bullet points here she
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: rushes through chores with little care and often needs reminders
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  Speaker 2: to complete basic hygiene. She shows little empathy, lying being
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  Speaker 2: physically and emotionally cruel to her sister and provoking the dog,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: then playing the victim. When confronted, she lies easily and
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: rarely shows remorse unless caught. She fakes crying to avoid consequences,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: something her father used to respond to with comfort until
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: we address the pattern. She avoids accountability, often twisting conversations
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: into perceived attacks to deflect attention. There was also an
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: incident where she shoved a classmate at school and minimized
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: it entirely. Her behavior seems motivated by self image over
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: genuine understanding of right and wrong. She mimics others preferences.
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  Speaker 2: Once fixated on turtles, she suddenly claimed to love penguins
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  Speaker 2: after learning they were special to her dad and me,
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  Speaker 2: et cetera. She doesn't seem to internalize values. She does
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: chores to earn screen time, not to contribute. She apologizes
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: only when prompted. She avoids shame when she avoids hurting others.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: I don't believe she is evil, She's just a kid.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: I believe there's a complex web of factors. At play here.
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  Speaker 2: I don't think this is coming purely from her, but
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: from the way she was and is raised. Now, I'm
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: also starting to consider that this could be a personality disorder.
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  Speaker 2: So what do we do? Thank you in advance, Anonymous.
• 8:59
  Speaker 7: Wow, so.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: I did copy and paste the entire letter at the
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: very end. Yeah, we have a reference, right.
• 9:09
  Speaker 7: Which was helpful to see examples.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Good, so you did already read it? I did, okay,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: because there.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Is like, when you read the shortened version of this,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, this sounds like a seven year old, right,
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  Speaker 1: but when you read the full version of it, it
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: seems like, oh, it's a little bit more extreme than
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: just your average seven year old. You know, some things
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: that kind of stick out to me is just you know,
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  Speaker 1: some some behaviors like towards the.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Dog and just kind of taunting.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: The dog, getting bit by the dog because the dog
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: like is like, no, don't play with me that way,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: and then kind of taking on that victim role of
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: like all the dog just attacked me type thing. There's
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: just a lot of just different stuff like that that
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: does seem kind of worrisome.
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, I think that's good to clarify. Just because Yeah,
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: reading through it, initially I was like, uh, I don't know,
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: I don't know. And then I really appreciate the writer
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: giving those examples, like very clear examples. But it was
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: a very long letter, right, Yeah.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: Personality disorders are tricky, right, and so like I appreciate
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: the complexity here, and like, yes the bullet points like
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: of all the different episodes, and the writer gave us
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of examples of different times that Doe was
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: inappropriate toward Jane, Doe was bothersome toward the dog, Doe
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: was intrusive on the family, and like self aggrandizing and
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: like clearly about herself. I'll tell you that when it
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: comes to personality disorders, A we're pretty much forbidden from
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: ever diagnosing them under eighteen.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was gonna ask about that.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't have a disordered personality if you haven't
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: fully developed Yeah.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: Exactly right.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: And going back to that first point you had said, Nick, Yes,
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: this behavior is problematic. It's exaggerated, right, but it is
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: still there. There's a Venn diagram here and there's a
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: huge overlap of and seven year olds do seventy percent
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: of this not as hard right, Like they're doing all
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: these same things, Doe is doing them and doing putting
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: a little bit more pepper in the soup, right, doing.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: Them more often, that's it more regularity.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: There's a little bit more insistence on it, right.
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: When obviously the writer has seen a pattern, right right,
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: doing it enough, there is a noticeable pattern to it.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting, right because like, clearly there's been a
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: disruption in the family.
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: It's going to just start with that baseline of going
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: fifty percent of the time with one parent fifty with another,
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: like that has to be so.
• 11:30
  Speaker 7: Hard on kids.
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: And when you're treated a certain way around one parent
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: for a whole week.
• 11:35
  Speaker 7: Let's say I'm guessing it's a whole week.
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: I know summer split up differently, but let's say if
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: it was a week with mom and a week with dad,
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: and you're being doted on for a week, and then
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: there's a shift and you go to dad's and there's
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: going to be acting out like you see that foster care.
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: When kids are at a foster home and then they
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: go spend a week nd or something or even a
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: day with a parent, that's just like spoiling them because
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: they don't get to see their kid. It's like there's
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: a lot of complex issues going on there, but they
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: come back and they are terrorists.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: You lose the struct every every time any either of
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: the boys that I fostered, whenever they spent time with
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: their birth family and they came back, you just expect, Okay,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: the next.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Forty eight hours are going to be out. Yeah, and
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: you just got to you got to be prepared for that.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: You have to not take things personally, you know, and
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: you have to kind of understand like they're going through
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of shit and they don't know how to
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: deal with it.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: And those were teenagers exactly. Yeah, I mean these boys
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: were sixteen, seventeen years old.
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: So yeah, so yeah, I think it's good to point
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: out some of those just family dynamics that we don't
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: really know. The writer didn't really go a lot into
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: other than saying that the mom really.
• 12:42
  Speaker 7: Dotes on Dough on doughtes on Dough and.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Doe's the baby, right because Jane is right right, So
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: you're talking fourth fifth grade at eleven years old, and
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Doe is just the little girl, And yeah, it sounds
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: like parents split. I mean, writer's been in dad's life
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: for three years and so assuming that they you know,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: didn't get together right away after the end of the
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: previous relationship. I mean Doe's parents have been broken up
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: probably since she was like two or three. Yeah, right,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: and she's been doing this back and forth thing. And
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: we do see this, Like, Yes, children are resilient. Yes,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: a lot of kids adapt to like the co parenting
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: models and the fifty to fifty splits, and there's a
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: lot of ways that they can thrive. And I think
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: our default assumption is we're going to see some kind
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: of ab reaction whenever you're doing a fifty to fifty split.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: The ecosystems, the cultures of the homes, like all the
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: different components of this. And like we've noticed that even
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: in foster care, you know, like just little breaks from
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: the normality and the structure can really like stir that
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: pot and that kid can come out all sorts of different.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: So I definitely want to, like I want to shine
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: a light into those things. First, not to be dismissive, right,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: or not to be minimizing.
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: Because these are I see where you're concerned.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fine, your concerns are correct. The question is
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: would a mental health provider look at this and say,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: something big is wrong with the brain of this person, right,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Like is this a behavioral disorder? Is it a mood disorders?
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: At a personally disorder? And again we don't diagnose on
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: the show. We also don't tell you that there's not
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: a diagnosis. We defer to the therapist that is treating her.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: But I'll tell you that when it comes to kids
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: in a disregulated environment and they're showing ab reaction like
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: traits and all sorts of like poor social skills and
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: and poor self regulation, poor emotional regulation, a lot of
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: this even for a seven year old. Seve year olds
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: are still pretty baby. But like a lot of this
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: sounds regressive, right, Like it's they're sort of like this
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: ecocentric look at me, look at me, and like that
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: we that is age appropriate at like four and five, right,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: And like once you start getting to seven through ten,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: we start to see you socializing a little bit more
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: in this deferential way. So there definitely seems to be
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: a regression or like maybe like a failure to mature
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: at like the correct pace. To me, I look at
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: that more as like a stubborn environmental reality. Maybe it's
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: the beginning of something long term that we might see,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: but that's going to take.
• 15:05
  Speaker 7: It to see.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the timing of that too, I mean the numbers
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: that you were just saying.
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: The timing of that too also kind of lines up
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: with the divorce or the parents splitting whatever whatever that was.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: It seems as far as what we've seen now, there
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: is an area that we do diagnose with children, and
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: that's oppositional defiant disorder, which working in foster care systems,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: we've all three seen a shitload or adjustment disorder or
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: adjustment disorder. Yeah.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Now, the thing that I think really kind of makes
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: it complicated, you know, because the main thing that I
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: kind of read going through all of these examples is
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: the thing that kind of stuck out to me, I
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: think was the lack of empathy or like understanding how
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: behaviors affect other people. Where it's just kind of like,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: I did this behavior, it hurt this other person. I
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: know I need to say sorry, because I've been trained
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: that that's what you do to end the conflict, is
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: you just say sorry, But no real connection to how
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: other people are affected by these behaviors or how the
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: dog is even affected by these behaviors. You know, it's
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: just kind of that that disconnect there that sounds very scary,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: you know, because then that's kind of when you start
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: thinking about things like kind of antisocial, you know, or
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: or not antisocial, But for adolescences it would be oppositional defiant, right.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Right, is that the one that proceeds.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: But but the other thing with this too that kind
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: of makes me feel like, well, maybe it's not quite
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: that serious, is just when you factor in this other
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: perspective of she needs to feel.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Like she belongs somewhere and it seems.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Like she doesn't have that. And so it's hard to
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: become empathetic when you're trying to fit in someplace and
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: be part of something and you're not feeling like you're
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: part of it, because then it you don't have time
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: really to kind of think about how other people are
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: being affected, because it's kind of like, well, when when's
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: my turn? Like when do I get what I need?
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah? And coming to that point too, ADHD is
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: already diagnosed. Yeah, ADHD is already diagnosed, and so seeing
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: poor temperament, seeing poor emotional impulsivity, not waiting turn, and
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of times with ADHD and sometimes with autism too,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: people will often comment and they'll say phrases that sound
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: like narcissistic, anti social, lack of empathy, is very selfish,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: like you know, they only think about themselves. They only
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: do these chores to be noticed or to get things done.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: They don't understand the ship. And it's like, yeah, like
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: some of that is a neurodivergent like frame of reference
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: and like those those things do come eventually. Yeah, but
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: especially at a young age when we're seeing that stuff,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: there is this deep blindness that they just don't have.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: They don't have access to that information yet.
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: I even was talking with a friend recently about their
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: like teenage daughter who uh, we were kind of discussing
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: some potential you know, personality disorder traits kind of more
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: on the borderline side, and we were like, I was like, ooh,
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: do you think what do you think that will look
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: like in so many years? But she had brought up
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: with me when she was talking with a clinician that
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: the mom was that there is some new research dabbling
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: in the idea that some of those traits are almost
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: a form of stemming potentially interesting.
• 18:27
  Speaker 7: So I'm just throwing it out there. I'm not saying
• 18:29
  Speaker 7: that's what it is.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying I've looked at all the research, but
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: that came to mind that a reference when I was
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: kind of reading through this, and that that was with
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: a teen not a seven year old. But it is
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: interesting and a little bit of like a like personal
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: story here. My I have a younger brother and he
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: was diagnosed with ADHD, you know, in the nineties, which
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: was super fun for him, poor kid.
• 18:55
  Speaker 7: But my my, this is not to doubt my parents.
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: They ton't listen to this anyway, my mom, but my right,
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: my parents, mainly my dad, would say things like he
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: just something's just been wrong with him since he was two.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: He was kicked out of daycare for like you know,
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: spinning on a kid or like kicking them like during
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: nap time, like some aggressive behaviors, and so he was
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: placed in like special egg because they didn't know what
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: to do with him, and he was diagnosed with ADHD.
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: I look back now, and the ADHD symptoms were so
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: strong that they presented first. But something I see looking back,
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: he's still in his thirties, will toe walk, yeah, And
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I wonder if there was other stuff going
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: on there that just didn't get looked at. And when
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: those things aren't addressed. And with this girl that you're
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: writing in about as a parent, you're in the thick
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: of it. As a stepparent, you're in the thick of it.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: And I feel free because it can be scary to
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: watch our children that you see at seven years old
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: with things that look like lack of empathy, they look
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: like sociopathy, they look like these very scary things like
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: harming animals, were teetering into that realm, and our minds
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: can go wild, and you're like, I'm the parent.
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: I need to stop that or do something. What what
• 20:10
  Speaker 7: will people say about me?
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: What? Well?
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: I how will I sleep at night if they go
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: on and do worse things as you know, an adult.
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: But I think it's very important. We're not, like Jim said,
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: not trying to minimize these behaviors, but just take a
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: step back. And I almost do hear kind of what
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: Nick was saying, that the daughter might be just trying
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: to seek connection. She's not doing it in the right way,
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: like the helpful way, but I hear that her trying
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: to get like the penguin or whatever, because y'all got
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: the penguins.
• 20:41
  Speaker 7: Part of me was like I could see how you
• 20:43
  Speaker 7: see it. I was like, what the hell, Like, you're just.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Doing what we want or everyone like Pengin my favorite
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: thing is it though you're you're fucking lying. It's like, yeah,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: but she's fucking I can't think. That's what. I can't
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: think of anything I liked because I genuinely liked it
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: imitating every Yeah, older cousin like these things, So like,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: oh I like these you like your older cousins? Yeah, well.
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah in to the family union, Yeah, between a landscaping
• 21:13
  Speaker 6: and date somebody.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: No, but that's a really good point. And like I
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: again coming back to this idea of like when you're
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: you're introduced to a kid and you're like, geez, like
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: this is so off balance, like and it's tough because
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: we come in and we just try to apply the
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: normal human standard, right, like this is the normal three
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: people talking in a room. If I describe this set
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: of factors, it seems off to everybody, Like if you're
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: talking to another adult and you're like, oh, I really
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: like this, you know, I like Sushian, Like, oh my god,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: I love Susha. That's my very favorite thing. And they're
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: like turning it into themselves and they're one uping your
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: story and shit, you're just kind of like you're a douche,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: you know, or like whatever, you're a weird person.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: I don't know you.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but like I taught like K through twelve for
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: ten fucking years. Yeah, this is just what they do.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Like this is just the norm, right, Like they just
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: come in and like I'll be talking to them like, oh,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: have you ever heard of power Rangers? Like no I have,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh yeah, I group pound is really
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: cool to do, crying like, oh my god, I love
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: power Rangers, Like you're you're lying though it didn't you
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: just told me that you don't know, Like it is ridiculous. Like,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: but again, it's them trying on lots of different things,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: trying to seek approval and then trying to like.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: Getting defensive and worried like yes, yeah.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Trying to fit in. But then whenever you're also neurospicy, boy,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: do you lack tact like you're just not graceful in this.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: And there could also be you know, and again I'm
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: not throwing out autism just to throw it out there,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: but like a lot of times, especially with female autism,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: it presents very differently and a lot of people just
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: assume autism looks like that guy from uh that fucking yeah,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: let's go with that. I was gonna say the Bazinga
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: guy's oh, big bang, big bang theory, Sheldon from Big Bang,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Like people think it's like that kind of guy and
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: like this awkward like you know, not making eye contact, hearing, but.
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: For making a super current reference. Yeah, yeah, right to
• 23:03
  Speaker 6: those Dustin Hoffman. Yeah, I gotta get that, dus.
• 23:10
  Speaker 7: Like when we grew up, autism meant.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: That's especially feminine. Like autism, it presents very differently and
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: a lot of times it can be little features like this.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: So I mean, I think all of us are kind
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: of giving you that feedback writer to say we don't
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: love personality disorders as a description. Here I will add
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: that we none of us are dismissing you're saying, because yeah,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: because I can definitely see that, like the writer's concerned,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: and I would be too, Like if I if I'm
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: in this position, I'm seeing all these things. I agree
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: that the writer is probably observing these correctly and has
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: the right perspective on a lot of this stuff. And
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: it is very scary. It looks, you know, as Whitney said,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: it looks really scary. The nice thing is what you've
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: got going for you is she's already involved in therapy
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: like that. And I think the big question here that
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the writer's kind of getting at is like, what what
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: is our role? What do we do with this? How
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: do I communicate this to the what I'm seeing to
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: the therapist? And it's really tough, right because like, and
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: this is one of the reasons that's I really struggle
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: with pediatrics and I just don't want to do it anymore.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: It's because like my default setting is very Raugerian, right,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And so like when I'm meeting with a kid and
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: I can sense like, okay, the seven year old does
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: not go ahead.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: I'll just go make a Rogering joke. It's fine, it's fine.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: We don't need to know, Like he gets himself laughing.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: That was the best joke. So that ones not spoken
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: that you don't hear. But no, like this, this uh,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: this experience with kids, like a lot of times I
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: lean right into connection, affirmation, relationship, right, And if I'm sensing, hey,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: you're seven years old and you're looking identity and you're
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: dealing with maybe some self esteem stuff, and you're at
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: reacting you're just regulated. I'm focused on things like emotional insight, building, praise, affirmation, complementing,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: building up self esteem so that we're taking that back
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: into the world and not feel like we need to
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: impose ourselves on other situations. Yeah, but that may not
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: be very helpful, Like you might need more of like
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: an ABA kind of approach or something very task oriented.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: And I know that I'm very weak on those skills,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: and so I wonder like man therapy with a seven
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: year old can be really tough, especially if they're not
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: a specialist.
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: I think for parenting in the kind of neurodivergence arena,
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: there needs to be a lot of verbal talk about
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: what's going on, what's going on in your own mind,
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: because I think as parents sometimes we're living or I'm
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: not a parent, but you know, parents described to me
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: that they're kind of living in their own world. Right,
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: you're very nervous to open up to your kids or yeah,
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: open that line of communication. But I have seen some
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: parents see a lot of progress with their kids who
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: have some form of neurodivergence where they will talk through
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: like what's going on in the situation. So, for example,
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: there was an example given about like watching TV in
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: the morning, and she's not supposed to watch TV in
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: the morning. But her immediate reaction, instead of just answering like, hey,
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: what time did you wake up, she said, Dad said
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: I could watch TV. Yeah, And so she's like I
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: was caught off guarded and even ask her that. So
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: that's a moment where I'd sit down and say, oh,
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: that's interesting. You just told me that, you know, Dad
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: said you could watch that.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: I didn't.
• 26:34
  Speaker 7: I didn't ask that.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: I actually asked this, You're not in trouble. I was
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: just asking you a question. I would love to talk
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: through that. You know, what are you hungry?
• 26:42
  Speaker 7: Are you do you need breakfast?
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: Like kind of just jumping into that dialogue of sort
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: of what's going on in your own mind, because it
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: sounds like she's very jittery too being in trouble. Yeah,
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: maybe because she gets in trouble a lot. So it's
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: this weird cycle that's going around a lot.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: With ADHD children is because they do like part of
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: the way we diagnose ADHD is the disruption you cause
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: your environment. And so by the time we give you
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: a label, you've done pissed off everybody, right, Like the
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: other kids in school are upset, Like the parents are upset,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: the teacher's upset. You've been written up a million times,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: and then you've got a situation where you have divergent households,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: so they have different structures, different rules, different reporting standards,
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: and then they think the kid is like super dishonest
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: and they're like, dude, what's up with my sociopath fucking
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: lying kid. And it's like it's it's almost like training
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: a dog though, you know, like if one of you
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: like slaps the dog every time the dog does this thing,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: like now it like hides the thing, like it doesn't
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: want you to know it pissed in the house, you know,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: like it's scared to tell you. And so like there's
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of factors at play here. But you know, writer,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: as you're thinking about options, like and again I'm not
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: saying the child has autism, but I'd be curious what
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: you'd get out of like autistic support groups like for
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: people that are raising kids that are a little bit
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: on the spectrum, and they may just have feedback, right,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: and there may be some things there that are relatable
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: and some feedback that you could get from them. Organizations
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: you might want to look into Autism speaks, is I
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: think the national standard really really useful. Another one is
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: CHAD CHA d D Children and Adults with Attention deficit
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Hyperactivity disorder. And another one is aa n E Asperger
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: and Autism Network. So these are all like places where
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: you could just dial into I think other support, you know,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: parents that are dealing with children that are you know,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: growing up with some of these traits. And again some
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: of this she may just grow out of. Some of
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: this may be situational. I do think seven years old
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: is a little too young for us to zoom in
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: and say this is a permanent problem. But I think
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: you're right, as Nick said, definitely, yeah notice these things
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: and to say, look that, guys is on my radar.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I'm concerned about this. The dad and I both notice
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: these patterns and like we're not making the shit up.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: We're trying to be responsive, but we also know we're
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: not just going to beat it out of the kid, right,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Like you're not just going to discipline this out of
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: a child. And especially with ADHD, one of the things
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: that really frustrates parents is they especially if they have
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: an old school mentality, it's this thing of like Okay,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: that's enough. I take it fucking personally. I think you're
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: a liar. I think you're inappropriate. I think that you're
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: you're disobedient, and and you know what, your dad fucking
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: entitles you, and he's he's poop pooing all this stuff,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: and he's treating with kid gloves because of the divorce,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: and he feels guilty and he doesn't want fifty percent
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: of his time to be riddled with discipline, and Mom's
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: not gonna keep up with it. And then like, as
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: the step parent, you get sick of this shit and
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: you're like, that's enough. I'm gonna fucking bring the house down.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: We're gonna have real discipline, We're gon have real structure.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: And you feel like that's the only way to do it.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: But it's frustrating because it's like trying to catch smoke.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: It's just gonna slip right through your fingers no matter
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: what you do.
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: I'd try real hard right to not You don't want
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: to become the disciplinarian.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: That's not the move. Yeah, especially the step parents, and
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: no one, including you, no one.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: Is going to be happy if you've become the disciplinarian
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: in the house.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Or if you twist Dad's arm and try to create
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: a whole new thing that's not really authentically him. And
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: now we're constantly fighting in our relationship and we're saying,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: like you got to stand with these kids. No no, no,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Noah does rip in this family apart, and it's like, whoa,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: We've got to start working on us. And so if
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: you're not already working on you doing a place where
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: you're you know, digesting this stuff, thinking it through, processing it.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: I would really encourage you to find out for yourself
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Two things I would recommend. Number one, work with the
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: therapist and treat this as a team. It's a it's
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: a treatment team, right, and everybody needs to be on
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: the same page kind of again going back to the
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: example of you know, training a dog. This is one
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: thing I learned very early with puppies is the puppy
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: is trained by the least restrictive parents.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Actually, so it will.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: It's like you all got to be on the same
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: team and you have to be setting the same tone
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and your therapist can be the quarterback in that situation
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: like that, you know, express your concern and ask the
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: therapist like, what are the things I should be worried about, like, Okay,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: this isn't rising right now to the fear level that
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I think it is. What should I look for that
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: would tell me like, Okay, now now it's a problem.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: That's number one.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Number two when as far as parenting goes, when you're
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: confronting the child about the behavior, make sure that it
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: stays about the behavior and not about identity. So, as
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: an example, if we're talking about lying, be very careful
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: not to say you are a liar, but focus on
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: the behavior of lying right because you don't want the
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: child learning that they are a problem. You want them
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: to understand that's the Greek carp.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, you want them to.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Understand that their behavior is problem bad. I like that,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: not them, their behavior is yeah.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: And if you can focus on that behavioral intervention approach,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: that's where you're going to get the most ground with ADHD.
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: Talking through that why we don't because you're not going
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: to repair the quote unquote dysfunction or like the thing
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: that seems to be missing.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: You're like, why does this person not fucking get it?
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: They're not going to Their brain works different than yours.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: So the only thing we can do is train away behaviors, right,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: and like that's going to be a slow methodical others.
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: Anyway, I'm really glad that theyck actually said that because
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: I agree with Nick and would also like to compare
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: your step child to a dog and training it as such.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: That is me, Jim Jobin.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Oh there it is.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there it is, and I Jim Jobin, I do
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: feel that having a child is like having a dog.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: Again to welcome to all of my colleagues that are
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: listening for the first time.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, h Jim Jovins is perfect, thrilled to have love it,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: love all of it. And I not Jim Jim Funneling whiskey.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: Yes, I am Joe.
• 32:38
  Speaker 6: We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back,
• 32:40
  Speaker 6: we're discussing self esteem.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: You're listening to Pop Therapy. Today's episode is brought to
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: you by Jack Schneider, Leah Richard, Macy, Sonny Boy, Thunderer, Falco,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Scoop Slipper, Kaye, Motherfucker, Sander mclena, and Sam Cone. And
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: if you would like to sponsor the show, I think
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: you should, and I think everybody agrees with me. You
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: run on over to patreon dot com Slash Therapy and
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: sign up to become a they're a producer.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: You should do it now, do it?
• 33:08
  Speaker 6: Now?
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: Do it? Do it now.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Our trivia this week, because I had some time to kill.
• 33:13
  Speaker 7: Is what's on the back of this car? Y?
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: What's on the back of this car? Who can read
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: the fine print? Uh? New York City Trivia. Here we go,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: fresh on my mind. We're going to go crete, jungle,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: wet dream to Mato. We're going to go and order.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Let's just start at Jacob and then we'll just go
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: clockwise right there. Okay, two points on the fly. Okay,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: one point, multiple choice. Which is the only borough in
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: New York City that is located on the mainland of
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the United States.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, that would be j gotta be.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: I'm still don't get away.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: It is it the Bronx? I would say the Bronx?
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: It is correct? Yeah?
• 34:07
  Speaker 8: Two?
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: Got that.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: All right? Whitney, which New York City building was the
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: tallest in the world when it was completed in nineteen thirty,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: but held the title for only eleven months.
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: Oh wow, Empire State Building.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Final answer, Yes, steal past. Let me get that steel.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: I don't know even one other building in New York.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Oh good, use of a steel Yeah right, I didn't
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: get a chance. I get to take a guest. Okay,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: I'll take the New York Metropolitan Building. Okay, good use,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna take away a point.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: Is that the flat Iron Building?
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Oh no, that was one of the multiple choices.
• 34:58
  Speaker 7: I get a second chance.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: Chrysler Building, the Empire State Building, the Flat Iron Building,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: or Rockefeller Center.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: It might be the flat Iron Building.
• 35:07
  Speaker 7: I think it's the first one.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she's right.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Go with that, she says, Chrysler Building. Yes, okay, I'll
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: give you half a point. Character it goes around the
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: whole room.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: You can't get a full.
• 35:19
  Speaker 7: Point, all right, negative.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, bundings were built Jesus.
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they were being built at the same time,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: the Chrysler Building, the Empire State. And then they finished
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: the Chrysler Building, and then the Empire State they added, Yeah.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Dicks aspire.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: On the top of the Empire State Building was blimp dock.
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: There are great old pictures of the Empire State Building
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: with blimps docked.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: At the top. Yeah, that's weird. So they made an
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: extra tall so they could do that.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Because that was before the Hennenburg, Because that was first
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: the Airships was going to be the try the travel
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: of the future. Oh my gosh, leave it to the Nazis,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: all right, uh Jacob, Jim, Yeah, yeah, No, I'm Jim
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: so close.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: I'm Jim, well, Jim, Jesus's right. Okay. What is Lady
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Liberty's full official name? Oh? Oh my god, oh boy,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: oh Jesus. Yeah, she's French. Oh my gosh, it's okay,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Oh boy ship. I used to know this, yeah, because
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: I taught a history class and so it was one
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: of those random facts. I was like, huh, got it,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: and I held on to that time. Yeah, I'll get
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: it with options. Okay, So we're hoping to get up
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: to zero points. Yeah, yeah, I take myself out of
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: this hole. A liberty leading the people. B liberty enlightening
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: the world, liberty manifesting democracy, or D liberty embracing her
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: people to be honest. None of those sounds.
• 37:04
  Speaker 7: Lady Liberty is.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Liberty enlightening the world. Oh give me that one level ground, right,
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: good jobs.
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: Listening to the trivia with the guest therapist on the
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: CIRCA answer for the sports book was driving me crazy.
• 37:28
  Speaker 7: I was listening through the episode.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: I was like, it's circa scream putting the discord. I
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: did against because the second set of questions I am
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: convinced was not correct.
• 37:38
  Speaker 6: Did you listen to the episode? You should be writing
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: letters into the show. Well I have done that, but
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: to have the experience of shouting into the.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: It's the team.
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: Thank you for everybody on the discord who immediately jumped
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: into the channels like it's at like that was still
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: happening like a day. In two days, people jump in
• 38:08
  Speaker 6: and be like, hey, did anybody tell Jim it's eighteen yet?
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: Ye?
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: I just got here. I just want to make sure
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: somebody did that. Yes they did, all right. Next question
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: is on self esteem. Hi, y'all, I've been struggling with
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: low self esteem and wondered if you guys had any
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: tips on how to build self esteem or confidence. For
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: every good thing I think about myself, I find five
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: more to criticize about myself. I try and treat myself
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: like I would a friend or family member, but somehow
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: I just can't convince myself and abspiraling a bit and
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: feeling like why try when I'll always be a fat, ugly,
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: dumb ass loser. This can be hard to talk about
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: because I find people I think I need the I
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: find people think I need them to reassure me, and
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: it can come off like I'm just attension seeking or
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: fishing for compliments. I'm not. I just have this inner
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: voice that kind of hates me. What's that about? Anyways?
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Any advice is awesome, Sincerely, Troubled Tammy. PS. Best advice
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: gets a bonus point, Jacob, you can judge and yeah,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: you can just give that point to yourself.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: Good your point.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: You deserve it. Buddy Yikes, Troubled Terry that or Tammy
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: that is a tough one.
• 39:24
  Speaker 7: Is an expert. He's the highest.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: That's true. That's right.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: Do you do it? Jim?
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah, impenetrable. I remember when Jacob met my mom. That
• 39:37
  Speaker 6: was the only question he had is He's like, so,
• 39:39
  Speaker 6: what the fuck's up with that? That was like what
• 39:43
  Speaker 6: My Mom's like, Oh yeah, no, I get that a lot.
• 39:48
  Speaker 6: I think Jacob's exactly what was what's up with all
• 39:49
  Speaker 6: the undeserved confidence? My mom was like, yeah, no, that's
• 39:54
  Speaker 6: always been it was zero yeah blew. My mind is
• 39:59
  Speaker 6: like she could have fit his question.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I was like, what the question?
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: No?
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Pause, She's like she had an answer for pater immediately. Yeah,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: I've heard this several times in my life.
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, Jim was very upset. Yeah, I did
• 40:12
  Speaker 6: not know, had no idea. It's like if it was like, so,
• 40:16
  Speaker 6: what's up with the giant mole on his forehead? And
• 40:18
  Speaker 6: she's like, oh that, and I'm like, what the.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: Well, I already knew that your mom and Jacob were
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: connected spiritually.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: Spiritually, soually one spirit.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as they like to say, Oh my god, don't
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: we chant.
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: We skipped down the whole holding hands, two bodies, one spirit,
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: bodies one spirit.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: We're adorable.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: They always get twinsy Halloween costumes.
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: My gosh, last year she was a bat and I
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: was just an insect. Tried to get away, but I couldn't.
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: I couldn't get away.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: She got me.
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: Self confidence and that negative self talk, that rough that
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: can really dig in there.
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: Well, you're already doing it with your friends. You say
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: you don't hold this judgment over your friends. You're only
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: holding this judgment over yourself. You're holding yourself to a
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: different criteria than you're holding everybody else to, which means
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: that you are holding yourself to a different criteria than
• 41:28
  Speaker 5: anyone is holding you too, right, because they they are
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: looking at you with the same eyes that you're looking
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: at them with, which are non judgmentalized. These are your
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: friends and people that you like and that like you.
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: They're not worried about this.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: They like you.
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: They like you, like you as you are right now.
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: That's how they like you. They want you to be happy.
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: But I mean, that's that's really it.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: And it's tough too, because like writer says, yeah, you know,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: like I catch myself kind of being so negative and
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: self critical, and then that sends a signal to people
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: that love me that I need them to boost me, right,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: I need I need a pep talk, I need you
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: to tell me I'm okay, and writers saying like, but
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: I don't want to send that signal, like that's not
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: what I'm looking for. And now I feel bad again
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: because now I feel like I'm coming off as like
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: this attention craving person and I'm needy, and it just
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: doubles down over and over and over again. That's such
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: a tough cycle to break.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: And I mean, everybody has things, well, three out of
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: the four people in this room have things about themselves
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: they don't like.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: There's also wit.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 42:30
  Speaker 6: I think all four of us have things we don't
• 42:31
  Speaker 6: like about I keep this listening later you're tissue box
• 42:40
  Speaker 6: hold that.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: But like we all have things about ourselves that we
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: don't like or that we're sensitive about, you know. And
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: for me that like I've I've I've got that list.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: I actually I have a list as.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: Is too juicy.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Too. There's a thing is being too sexy.
• 42:59
  Speaker 5: That's rights all the boys to the yard that I
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: have to ask all these boys to leave my yard.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: So many boys that it's not landscape.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: I don't have a landscape.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: But there's things that I've I've I've just kind of
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: learned to like, Okay, well this is just me and
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: this is what. Yeah, that's just that. This is how
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: it's going to be. Yeah, And like uh, physical characteristics.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: My hairline. I hate my hairline. I do not like it.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: I've lost so much hair up here and like you
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: know his forehead, I am, he's just to his pubes.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Actually he's right in his hips, lower stomach. Yeah, it's
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: so much where I've lost hair. It's where it's now growing.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: Right, It's not it's the tops of his feet I have, so.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: They're not wool socks.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: Have a landscape.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: The side of a mounted But like, it's things like
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: that that you're just like, Okay, well that's that's just
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: me and this is what I got to work with,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: and I'm going to make the best of the situation
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: and I'm not going to try to change it because
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: it's just like, well, okay, this is I'm gonna go
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: with this, you know. And everybody, even people that that
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: we think of as like, oh man, they've got everything
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: going for them, they don't what they've what they've really
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: done is they've learned to accept the things that they
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: can't change and make the best of the situation and
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: let it not bother them. But I guarantee everybody has
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: something that that that they don't like about themselves. Now
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: there's also other things that I don't really like about
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: myself that I can continue to work on. So you're
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: not saying that I don't.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: There's still there's still evolution, there's still human growth. This
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: past weekend, I'll tie this back to golf. Do something
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: oh I never do?
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Oh good, okay, I I golfed this past weekend and
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: I've played like absolute ship. So after again, no one
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: you have to play the Masters. Now here's here's my
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: human progress here.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: After about eight holes, I was like, Okay, there's nothing
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: I can do. I'm not going to work on my
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: golf game today. I've got ten holes left. I'm not
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: going to work on my golf game. I'm just going
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: to work on my attitude.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Okay. And that's it. And I just like, okay, I'm
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: just going.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: To golf is going to be what it's going to
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: be going to And from that point on, he lost
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: two balls a hole.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: And I went home and I kicked the ship out
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: of my dogs. Yeah, of course, I'm kidding. I didn't
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: oh my dogs.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: I had to pick them up from the vet because
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: I boarded one and Layla's she lost her voice. It's
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: like course because she was barking like.
• 46:00
  Speaker 7: That after like how much were you mailing?
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: So I can't have cameras in my house, like you know,
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: people like I love watching my amount of town.
• 46:10
  Speaker 7: I'm like, no, I just feel bad the whole time.
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: Shape Yeah yeah, they're very co dependent working at home.
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, there all the time, all day.
• 46:21
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: So I mean, like for me, when I think about things,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: I'm insecure about this last week, I went to the
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: U n LV College of Education golf tournament and I won.
• 46:31
  Speaker 7: You played a golf I did you played around the
• 46:33
  Speaker 7: golf stroke?
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 46:35
  Speaker 6: I was.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: I was going to golf whatever.
• 46:40
  Speaker 7: Counted because that was on the list already.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: We talked about that.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: God damn it, I fucking won. I got a trophy
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: Patriots Ship account for something. So yeah, I mean I
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: think about that participation trophy on the list somewhere. I'm
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: so insecure about winning all the fucking time. I mean,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: it's just this golf thing is so easy. I guess
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: it's for some people, right me John Daly, who is
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: my spirit animal? Yes?
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: Is that the.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: Run like that he loves the man? Yes? Yeah, yeah,
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: they're all good choice. But no, this is this is
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: what we talk about. This is that the writer saying, like,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: I try to affirm myself right, but then I think
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: of five things that are not good. And this is
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people relate to this because
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: you think that one of the cures for low self
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: esteem is to really meditate on like your positive qualities,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: but honestly, a lot of times that doesn't do anything.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: There is this paradoxical like effect where by thinking of
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: the one thing you like about yourself, it stands out
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: because there's ten things about you that suck, you know,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: or that you're you're unsatisfied with, and so it's like, oh, well,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: at least this is nice, all these other things notwithstanding,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: and I think that your eyes always do fall upon that.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: So I really do like that advice of it's okay
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: to take a reference check to audit oneself to say,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: these are things that I'm unsatisfied with, I don't like
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: about myself, and I accept this, But I think one
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: thing that can be really tough too. The writer talks
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: about their weight, you know, and they put it into
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: a pejorative sense, but they were saying, yes, that's part
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: of that here, And I know that that is a
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: really tough, you know, struggle because like, when you're dealing
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: with that, it is technically something you can change. You
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: are aware that you can change it, but it is
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: something that is so laborious to change. It requires such
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: emotional effort, physical effort, discomfort, longevity, consistency. It's hard as fuck.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Losing weight, like significant amount of weight has got to
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: be one of the hardest things a human being can do. Oh,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: it's an emotional fucking endurance test, and like, there's all
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: these days that you'll look at yourself in the mirror
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: and you'll see this and you're you're so disappointed, you're
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: so unhappy, and then like, but then there's this sense
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: of like, but to climb this giant fucking mountain to
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: solve this problem. This is why people get really motivated
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: for like a day or two because it's so painful, right,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: and they're motivated by so much like negativity, and they
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: like put their hands on that proverbial mountain and start
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: clawing at it and they get, you know, a little
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: bit up, and they're starting to make some progress. But
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: it is daunting because if you've even climbed, you bare
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: knuckle this bitch for a hundred feet and you're like
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: holy shit, and people around you're like, wow, one hundred
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: feet bare knuckle, that's so impressive. It's still fucking Mount Everest.
• 49:30
  Speaker 5: And there's one guy like six hundred feet ahead of
• 49:32
  Speaker 5: you and he's like, no, no, the first three hundred
• 49:34
  Speaker 5: feet are the bad ones.
• 49:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll get there, yeah yeah. And
• 49:37
  Speaker 6: then you see these other people and they're like, no,
• 49:39
  Speaker 6: this is all I do with my life. I just
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: climb Mount Everest. I'm fucking awesome at it.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: You'll learn to love it. And like with every handful
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: of rock, you're like, no, this still fucking sucks, and
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: it's just getting colder as I go up, and like
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: it's a daunting, terrible journey, and and so like whenever
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: you're going through it, it is really really difficult. And
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: there's so many days you look at yourself and you're
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: just like, I feel like a dumbfat fuck. I'm really
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: sad about this. I can't make it better. I'm never
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: going to look at myself in the mirror and feel
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: like this deep sense of personal acceptance. And that's where
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: I think I'm bringing this up because I want to,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: you know, find the limits of the idea, right, because like, yes,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: acceptance works, there's definitely I think that is the best
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: intervention in many ways. And yet I also appreciate there
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: are times when it's like acceptance isn't gonna ever be
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: my solution because I'm never gonna look at this and say,
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: I'm this is great, I accept me, I love me,
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: or here's a deficit. It'll never get better because it's
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: daunting because it's difficult and I'll never expect better. It
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: is just a lifelong struggle, man, And it's like I
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: wish there was a cure for that, like besides like
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: taking the hard route of climbing the mountain or whatever.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: There's not like this instant cure or this different way
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: of thinking where you can just like lobottomize yourself. And
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: it's tough because you can, like you can still improve,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: you can find all these other things about yourself that
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: you like. And a lot of people that aren't happy
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: with their appearance do find other areas that they try
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: to stand out or they you know, they try to
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: like find these unique social skills or this unique backstory
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: or find their people and like fall in with a
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: group that you know, feels like they would be very
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: accepting them. And writer says they have really great friends too.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: So like it's just such a daunting thing. And I
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: guess I just wanted to zoom on that and just
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: like appreciate out loud that, like, man, that lifelong struggle
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: you can have with self esteem, especially with your appearance,
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: sometimes is not like, yes, it's solvable in the sense
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: that like so is fucking dark matter and dark energy,
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: like yeah, no, we'll fucking get it one day, but
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: it ain't gonna be soon. Like it's you're probably not
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: gonna see it change in your lifetime. And like, I'm
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: glad you brought up the example that you really know about.
• 51:41
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I like to go straight
• 51:43
  Speaker 6: to physics, you know, bring stuff up that you're really
• 51:46
  Speaker 6: really solid.
• 51:47
  Speaker 7: Yeahah yeah, no one knows about that.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: We'll solve gravity at some point and you'll lose all
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: this weight, and just I get that. I appreciate how
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: daunting that is.
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: Well, something you brought up that I think is important
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: to sort of highlight or piggyback off of what you're.
• 51:59
  Speaker 7: Saying, is that.
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: I think when I work with clients who are in
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: this space, there's two things. One, they think that there
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: is an end kind of like you said, you're like, oh,
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: it's just this trudging, daunting journey. But I want to
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: kind of reframe that it is just a journey. There's
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: not an end. You're not going to stay that exact
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: same like weight by the pound nick like that you've
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: been working toward. There will be fluctuations based on mental health,
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: what's going on around you, like all these things. So
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: I think it's important to reframe that. In our minds,
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: we think of whether it is our weight, or like
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: how we are as people, or like sticking with a
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: consistent like routine, whatever it is we're talking about and
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: beating ourselves up about. We think, oh, there's like an
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: end goal, like I'll just do that every day, and.
• 52:49
  Speaker 7: It's like, that's not really how it works.
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: You're going to go on vacation and like sleep in
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: some time, or you know, you're not going to do
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: that every single day of life. There's not an end
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: goal like this is me. I wake up every day.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: We're not to take the kid out of the car
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: every time you go to the stay.
• 53:03
  Speaker 7: Seriously, you can't. I can't remember that.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: You know your hands are slipping off the door knob.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: That's tough.
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: So that that's I think one one part of that.
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: I already forgot the other thing I was going to say,
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: so that's.
• 53:21
  Speaker 7: Fine, but.
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: But I did want to say it was I did
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: want to say too, though, that I think that when
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: we're in that space, because I mean I've been there.
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: I've been and had moments where it's just like you're
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: just beating yourself up about anything It could be self image.
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: It could be that I missed a flight not long ago.
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: I had the leave time and the arrival time because
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: of time changes. You know, it's weird when you're going
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: to be come Central. I had the mixed up, so
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: I thought my arrival time was my leaf time. Anyway,
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: I showed up at there for like ten minutes before. Yeah,
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: I didn't realize until I was pulling in. My dad
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: was dropping me off for chatting, and I'm like, I
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: was like, yeah, there's a lot more to it. But anyway,
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: so I missed my flight and I just have a
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: breakdown at the airport and I'm by myself.
• 54:11
  Speaker 7: So I was like, I'm an idiot. Why didn't I
• 54:14
  Speaker 7: look at the you know, I'm just.
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: Like really going at it because in that moment, it
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: felt good to beat the ship out of myself, you
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: know what I mean.
• 54:23
  Speaker 6: I had that exact same moment, like you're beating it
• 54:26
  Speaker 6: at a whitney, yeah, something about it.
• 54:35
  Speaker 8: And then the people from Spirit Airlines came over. Something
• 54:43
  Speaker 8: happened to me like with the des this airline such
• 54:46
  Speaker 8: a piece of ship within the past two.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Weeks where I had a moment just like that, and
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: I can't remember what it was, but I remember just
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: being like, Nick, you fucking idiots.
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: Oh I do it all the time.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think a idiot.
• 54:58
  Speaker 7: Okay, we all have the No.
• 55:00
  Speaker 5: My my go to saying is it's hard to get
• 55:02
  Speaker 5: through life when you're as dumb as me, Like all
• 55:07
  Speaker 5: the time, I just I just fully accept it. I'm
• 55:13
  Speaker 5: just like, I'm dumb, and I'm just gonna walk through
• 55:15
  Speaker 5: life being dumb.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: Well, there is no limit to the amount of self
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: disappointment I think we as humans can can have, right like,
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: and you bump into it every day, whether it's something
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: that feel stubborn and unchangeable, or whether it's a mistake
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: because of an oversight or a social faux paw. God,
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: I've I've had those a million times where like the
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: whole drive home you're like hor you know, and like
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: you're just haunted by it, and so like God, self
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: esteem is really such a brittle thing. It is so flexible.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: It is constantly being shattered and you're trying to piece
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: it back together again. I wish there, I mean, like,
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: because all the conventional wisdom is things like yes, drop
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: up a list of affirmations, try to right size the negatives.
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: I really don't like that.
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: I like it. Acceptance, Yeah, the acceptance is good, Like, oh,
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: I'm just a human.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: I miss my flight normalizing normal and accepting it.
• 56:08
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and that's what I would tell like, because list of.
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: Good qualities, But those good qualities don't help me in
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: that moment.
• 56:13
  Speaker 7: No, you're in You're in the thick of it.
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: I was going to say something that can help me,
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: not when I'm in that that deep space I just described,
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: but right down.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: On a calendar that has times on it, that'd probably help. No,
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: very weird.
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: I did an auto out of my calendar, like my
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: flight this weekend is going to do, tells me when
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: to show up Frontier. Yeah, that one's frontier is also
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: friend here. But I was going to say, is that
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: maybe not like right sizing all the things Jim saying,
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: but more like a lighter level of that where I'm
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: just like, okay, well I did one okay thing today.
• 56:53
  Speaker 7: It's kind of like, you know, yeah, you're not amazed.
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: I'm not like, oh, you're amazing, You're great when you're
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: so smart, Like it's not going to be that, it's
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: going to be like, well, at least I did this
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: one time I made myself breakfast today like what, I
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: don't know, that.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: Was the at least thing can be, Like, hey, I
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: got a date to myself. I didn't get anything accomplished,
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: but man, I feel good at the end of this day.
• 57:13
  Speaker 7: Exactly how do I feel?
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: Like, let me check in with just one small thing
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: that I can just be like, okay, it's kind of
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: in line with acceptance, Like I didn't get the thing
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: done I didn't like And also I guess that was
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: okay because you know, I got that day of rest
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: or whatever, right, So I think trying to just find
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: something smaller that doesn't have to be a huge feat,
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: but you still accomplish something.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: There is a small victory's component to this. But also
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: I like how you talked about the importance of normalizing
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: and reframing what's gone wrong, and like I have to
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: do that all the time, Like, and it's tough because
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: I think we are all constantly at this inner war,
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: like tipping on the precipice of completely collapsing into self
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: doubt and giving up right, and like we're constantly teetering
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: on that razor's edge, And what gives us that balance
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: is that constant negotiation in our mind of saying, hold on,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: it's not it's not as bad as you think it'll be. Okay,
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: like you're you're still working on it. You're not done yet.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: That not done yet thing is what I think has
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: gotten me through a lot of my life challenges. Like
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: you know, I've gone through a weight loss journey. That's
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: been a very very very difficult thing. It is a
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: very emotional thing. It's very taxing, and you have to
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: hit thanks bitch.
• 58:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah, just make sure we get that update on the
• 58:34
  Speaker 6: record as well. Not there, right, Okay, back to the
• 58:37
  Speaker 6: self esteem talking check in.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: But no, it's it's tough, you know, and like it's
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: your every day you're unsatisfied. I mean even whenever you're
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: counting your progress and you're like, yay, I've done a thing,
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: or look at all this thing I've done, you're still unhappy, right,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: no matter what. And it's kind of like that old
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: like myth of the millionaire is sort of like you know,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: you ask the millionaire how much money do you need
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: to be happy? Like one more dollar? Like it it's
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: never enough. Like once they hit a certain level, they're like, okay,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: well now it's two yachts or now it's like, well
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: I want to be a billionaire or how do I
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: leverage this? And it's like, ye, there's going to be
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: this perpetual seeking behavior and yeah exactly. I mean I
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: remember my first million right like now, like, oh, I
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: want a million dollars really bad. You know, it's like
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: huh so bad. Send it in patrion dot com slash therapy.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: But yeah, like it's just it. I think that there
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: is this inherent, constant need and like this kind of
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: goes back to your point, Nick, and maybe the full
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: circle this thing back to acceptance. I got really into
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: like a deep dive into Buddhism. I think about like
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: a year and a half two years ago, like I
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: was going through a really dark spot in my life,
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: and like I really started just trying to understand those
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: teachings a little bit better. And like the core of
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: like this idea of how all suffering is sort of
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: attached to desire, right, Like that fundamentally the empty cup
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: is aware, right, and like hates that it's empty and
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: it longs to have more. And so this desire to
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: like get things in your life or what you lack
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: causes that sense of suffering, and then here's the arth
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: is sort of teaching us like it isn't about accumulating
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: the things, or it isn't about accomplishing the thing, you'll
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: never fill it, Like it's the it's the desire itself,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: the vacuum. You have to stare into that and confront that.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: And I think he sort of has this approach that
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: like there isn't a light switch solution to that either,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: like that is an ongoing, forever struggle. And then there's
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: sort of this replacement theory of like this eightfold path
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: of like so then try to do this like right action,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: right words, right behavior, right thinking, like do these good
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: proactive things and think less about what you lack and
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: just kind of like try to do good things every day.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: And so like that was a thing writer that I've
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: come back to that's really gotten me through. Is like
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of like mantras that I steal from AA,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: things like do the next right thing, you know, or
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: like one day it'll get better. Today might not be
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: that day, And that is I think, you know, I
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: always take kind of a similar approach working with people
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: in fitness is like you have to understand that like
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: you're not trying to win every battle, right trying to
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: win the war. But it's ongoing forever.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 6: You know.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: It's just like, Okay, yeah, I didn't go last week,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: I missed an entire week of going to the gym.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter right now. What matters right
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: now is what are you going to do right now?
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Right now is the most important piece. You don't have
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: to worry about what you're going to do tomorrow, and
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: you don't have to stress about what you did or
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: didn't do the day before. What can you do right
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: now to make your life just a little bit better
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: one hour from now than where it was before, you know.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: And it's just this constant motion of kind of just
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: pushing a sled, you know.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: You're just constantly pushing it, you know, and there's gonna
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: be times it's going to slide back and it's going
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: to go forward. But it's really just about the small steps.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: So for a long period of time.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: Right it's about developing a lifestyle more than just trying
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: to get first downs or like measuring to an end zone.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: It's like, the goal is not to win this game
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: or to win this strive ever to score. The goal
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: is to play football. Just play a lot of football forever.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: Be enjoy the sport, enjoy it and be better at
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: it every day, and really just give yourself.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: And I do like Timmy that you've got a team
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: around you that's supporting you, so you don't have to
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: do this by yourself.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: But you know, if you have to, it's okay. You
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: just got to believe in yourself, which.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 6: Is the thing that that's what the Buddhists hang in there, baby, Jacob.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: So who gets the point on this?
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I feel like I got us kicked off on
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: a really good direction.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, but you know, Whitney did pretty well on
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 5: that too, and Nick, you were no slouch on that.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 5: So I think I'm gonna split it three ways, okay,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 5: between the three of us. I think I'm gonna give myself,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: Nick and Whitney each a third of a point.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm not going to argue.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: So Whitney has uh point eight points right now?
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: Point eight three points.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: I think I'm still at zero. I think I'm still
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: zeroed out. All right, Thank you, Tammy, good luck with this,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: and jump into the discord if you're not already with us.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: So many people have talked about this over the years
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: and Discord and uh, Patreon, I am giving this question
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: over to you. I expect that in our channel you
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: will give us your feedback of how have you dealt
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: with the existential problems of life, how have you dealt
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: with the war of self esteem? And what tricks have
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: you brought that have worked for you? And keep your
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: answers to one sentence, yeah, yeah, yeah, or don't give
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: a shit.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 6: It's Discord, It's the Internet. You can fill it up pages.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 6: I don't care anyway.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: We're gonna take quick break in when we come back,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: we're gonna answer a question about telling my parents about
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: autism and ADHD. You're listening to Pop Therapy.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by Jake Schneider, Julia,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: Richard Macy, Sunny Boy, Thunder Scouger, Falcon, Scoot, Slither Fucker,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: Sander mcwaffle, Elena and Sam Cone and if you would
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: like sponts the show become a therap.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: Producer at patreon dot com slash therapy. Jacob. This is
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: the name of the landscaped section of Central Park that
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: is dedicated to John Lennon Lenin, located across the street
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: from where he was shot, Leningrad.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: It's Leningrad. That's it. That's it. I can't think of that.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: Give you the options love Lenin Square, imagine gardens, strawberry
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: fields or Penny Lane.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: Jesus Christ, I think it's strawberry fields. I think that's
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: what they call it.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: It is, okay.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: One point for Jacob Whitney. What New York City streets
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: is considered the narrowest is considered the narrowest at just
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: over five feet wide at one point. Okay Mill Street
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: in the financial Mill Street, shut up mill Mill Street Street, Okay,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: Mill Street in the Financial district, Water Street in the
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: lower east Side, Washington Street in Greenwich Village, or Mercer
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: Street in.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 7: So Okay, because I'm guessing.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: Get about the street name, I think location never mind.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know what those mean. Canyons on Mars, I
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: don't know what that is.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: So seems like people just walk around a lot. Probably
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: small streets sounds Greenwich village, it's a village or villages?
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 7: Do they have small streets?
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 4: I have no idea where any of these places, I
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: mean a village sounds.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: I know the base all the time zones off of Yeah,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: that's right, I'll just go so ho.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: No, no, Ho, gotter you guys, it is Mill Street
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: or Mill Lane in the Financial District. Because the history
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: of New York, the Financial District is the tip, the
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: very tip of Manhattan.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: It's just the tip there. That's where the city started.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: That's why.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when you look at you look at the map,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: there's no rhyme or reason behind any of the roads.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: They're just all over the place until you get to
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: a certain point where it becomes a grid. Okay, because
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: that's how the city developed anyway, All right, Jim, Which
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: body of water separates Brooklyn from Staten Island and sees
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: the largest tidal.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: Flow in the harbor?
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 7: You don't get this.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: Every time he says, your mom, it's two more points.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: How does he do it? Just the singers? Okay, there's
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: a body of water that cuts through New York.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: Christ just talking a lot of water that goes.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: There's like, I don't know, ponds, Like Manhattan Island is
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: an island, long island. Yeah, but it's in Liberty Island.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: This is all in the same island, Okay, Well as
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: islands like a rock with the statue on it, that's
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: Liberty Island.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 6: Live there, all right, say some of the questions again, Okay,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 6: some of the co and we're gonna have to give
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 6: me the separates.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: Let's go to the options. Let's go. I can bring
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: a bell on jam Kabay feels, the Narrows, the East River,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: the West River.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: Christ.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: This is dumb. Those all don't sound like things, or
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: they sound like it's saying things at any fucking place.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: I don't even know what the question was, something about
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: body of water that separates Brooklyn from Staten Island, Brooklyn State.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: I don't even know where those are. The isn't Brooklyn
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: where Captain America is from? Yes, Yeah, Davis is from.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, except for the answer yeah, and work your way
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: to the answer from those river Okay, Captain America.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: This is born in the late scene where he jumps
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: into this water. Does I am? I'm across off Jamaica
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: River because I don't think that there's Jamaica Bay. But
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: all right, that I've got East West, and what's the
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: last one, the narrows, Jesus Christ. The Narrows is from Zion.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: So I'm gonna cross that out. Yep, there can't be
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: let's go with I mean, so I don't even know.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: Is it west of the thing Brooklyn West, give me
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: West River. No, that's the only body of water that
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: I made up. The rest of Jamaica Bay is reel.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: The narrows is the correct answer in the East rivers
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: also wow, So okay, so it was the narrows the narrows. Great, yep,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: fuck you, New York. This is Sharing York, New York. Yeah,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: you did definitely not of water ship. Never going there.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: Telling my parents about autism and ADHD, I've been struggling
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: with my courseworkload at university, so they assigned me a
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: study skills mentor. Within twenty minutes of talking, she asked
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: if I was diagnosed with anything. This led to a
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: non diagnostic screening profile through the university which strongly suggested
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: I may be neurodivergent with indicators of autism, ADHD and dyspraxia. Honestly,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: it was like my anxiety disappeared. I suddenly understood why
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: my brain works the way it does and why I've
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: struggled for so long. I was also really angry that
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: no one in my childhood or any of the multiple
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: GPS or therapists I've seen as an adult have suggested
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: neurodivergence as a possibility. My current GP spoke to me
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: every two to eight weeks for over two years while
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: I was on and off Ceirchra Lane Instalpram. When I
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: called her about getting a referral for a formal ADHD
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: or autism diagnosis, she said yes straight away and said
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: she had wondered about autism during our previous conversations. Infuriating.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: I've now been referred to a psychiatry provider for ADHD
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: and autism assessment for reference. I'm in the UK and
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: have been referred via the Right to Choose pathway to
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: a private provider, as the National Health Service waiting list
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: for adult ADHD is around seven years in my area.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: Fuck.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: The NHS pays for this alternative alternative approach and it
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: brings the wait time down to twelve to eighteen months.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: I now need to fill in some pre assessment forms,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: including an ADHD informant report to be completed by someone
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: who knew me before twelve years old, and an autism
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: self report, which asks several questions about what I was
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: like as a baby. I'm looking into alternative ways of
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: providing information, but it has raised this issue that I
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: may need to tell my parents about all this. I
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: was the quote good child who excelled in school, the
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: first in my family to attend university, and I've done
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: quite well in my career so far. My younger brother
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: struggled in school and was seen as the one with issues,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: though he was not diagnosed with anything as far as
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: I'm aware. Honestly, even though my parents are aware that
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: I've dealt with anxiety and depression, been on medication, and
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: seen several therapists, I'm not sure they would take autism
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: and ADHD seriously. From things they've said before. They seem
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: to think autism means being a little odd at work,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: struggling socially, or needing a lot of additional support to
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: live independently. My partner has ADHD, and my parents don't
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: seem to acknowledge it. They respond with oh okay when
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: it comes up. Still, they live only half an hour
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: away and we text weekly. I see them about once
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: a month, and they often help take care of our dog.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: So I feel like I have to tell them. Eventually,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: it will likely come out through me, my partner, or
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: another family member. So do I tell my parents now
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: and ask them to help complete the assessment forms. Do
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: I wait and see whether it's a positive diagnosis either way?
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: How do I bring it up? And where do I
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: start with explaining late diagnosis and high masking. I guess
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: I also need to prepare myself to temper my frustration
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: that it has taken until my thirties to get to
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: the assessment stage and that discussing it with my parents
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: may only get a lukewarm or negative response. I'm currently
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: seeing a lovely and helpful IFS therapist. I will mention
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: this issue to her too, but it would be great
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: to get another perspective. Thanks for everything you guys do.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: Hannah Marie pronouns are she and her Hannah Marie.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: First of all, I actually love that you felt relief
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 4: hearing somebody sort of validate or put a name to
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 4: these symptoms that maybe for a long time made you
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: feel like something just wrong with you because you can't
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 4: be like other people around you. But it kind of
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 4: helps just explain and and know what you're dealing with,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 4: and now you're able to kind of take some steps
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: toward how to manage that and get diagnosis.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 7: Get helps.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm so sorry that other clinicians that is
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 4: so hard, and I don't want to definitely don't want
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 4: to jump to defending clinicians. It's complicated and we're always
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 4: looking at it. And you mentioned like your GP, like
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 4: your general doctor, and I feel like, I don't know
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 4: how it is across the pond, but uh, it just
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: sort of our general practitioners here there. They might ask
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 4: a few questions they're not really honed in, like what's
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 4: going on with you?
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: But you see them a lot gps have ever asked
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: me anything like that.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 5: Is if they're putting me on some kind of medication
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 5: that has like a possible side effect of depression or
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 5: something like that, right, uh, and then the and then
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 5: like a follow up visit, you know, they'll ask a
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 5: couple of questions about that.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: But that's that's the only time I can recall a
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: GP ever asking me.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, far, like a lot of them don't feel comfortable
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: talking about mental health in general. And then ADHD and
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: autism feels way more specializing in the weeds, and like
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: if they're working with children, a lot of times that
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: comes up more naturally, and so I think they're usually
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: feeling a little bit more you know exactly, And they'll
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: get some notes, but like a lot of times, they
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: just sort of steer away from this. And and again,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: therapists too can be guilty, but no, I don't use
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: the word guilty. But healthcare providers in general are going
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: to address a presenting concern, not trying to go on
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: a scavenger right to try to find a greater, bigger explanation.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 5: Which is what I thought about when you mentioned the
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 5: one physician who said, oh, I did think about it.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: I've wondered it before.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 5: But they're not necessarily going to be worried about something
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 5: that you aren't already necessarily worried about.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: Well, you're high functioning, right, and like that's where a
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: lot of the stuff doesn't get noticed. And the writer says, look,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: you know, I was the golden child. I got everything done.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: I've always excelled. I've always you know, And like we
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: talked about earlier in the show, ADHD is usually a
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: diagnosis based on the way that you're disrupting the world
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: around you. And if you look at the actual criteria
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: of what how we diagnose ADHD, almost all of it
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: is external facing, whereas anxiety. We do not diagnose anxiety
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: based on how you perform at work or how well
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: you're doing at school. We're interested in anxieties disrupting other things,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: but your inward suffering experience is sufficient to tell us
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: that you have a disorder right depression. Almost any other
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: characteristic you can have that's in the DSM is all
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: going to be an internal barama. But ADHD is fundamentally
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: an outward facing way that we describe it. And so,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: like the writer drops a few phrases in here that
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: the general audience might not be aware of, like words
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: like masking, right, and so like masking is this term
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: to say, hey, look, I probably do have a neurodivergent brain.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: I probably do have a brain that's more ADHD aligned
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: or autistically aligned. But I knew how to pretend well.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: And so because I had an adaptive skill, and I
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: learned how to fit in or get by without causing
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: indisruptions that made everybody miss my diagnosis. And this is
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: going back to what I had said earlier about like
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: female autism, especially in female AHD, being very different, because
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: we're all expecting you to be the basinga guy, and
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: like this these clear like blinking red lights of social awkwardness,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: or like being aloof for things like that, and like, no,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: you can still be somebody who passes all the social
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: tests does find fits into this environment, and yet is
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: that kind of brain right? And then it's not until
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: much later writer that this is whenever the world starts
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: to like get a little bit more nuanced, and then
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: we do start to notice some factors that kind of
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: align with the definition, and then you get deeper into
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: it and you realize, oh, wow, I relate to a
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: lot of this. So I guess I just want to
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: bring some grace, you know. I know it's still frustrating.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: You're allowed to be frustrated. Yeah, but I want to
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: agree that I understand why as a provider myself, I'm
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: often not going on this hunt to figure out what
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: is the deeper explanatory diagnosis. I'm usually trying to solve
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: what the presenting problem is. And if you're going into
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: your doctrine saying I have I have anxiety, they're saying, okay, great,
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: let's get you this medicine.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 3: I have depression.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: Great, we're gonna get your style prim Like, it just
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: seems like that's probably more relevant. Now. My last note
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: on this is is coming down to this word about
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: like the point of assessment and diagnosis. As you may
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: have heard, right, I did a six hour deep dive
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: on ADHD. It's therapy. Yeah, so you can go check
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: all that out if you feel like I got it
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: right here. There you go. It's just this on loop
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: must Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, it's just it's yeah,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: I'm just jumping back and you don't want to hear
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: about ad My name is Jim. Yes, yes, do you use.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 6: That?
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 9: Anyone that you know mayally or suffer from the effects
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 9: or a side from zotopa. So writer, like a lot
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 9: of times there we get way too interested in the
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 9: validation power of getting the assessment and the diagnosis done
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 9: and and so like I want to speak carefully on
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 9: this because on one hand, there is value to interacting
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 9: with the symptomless getting that feedback, doing.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: Maybe some some like secymptom list. Yeah, there's like checklists.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: So like I'm good symptoms, you guys here cphalis. So
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: like there's value to the assessments. But where I think
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: a lot of people go wrong is they put way
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: too much value in this because they feel like this
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: is going to validate their existence. Like they're going to
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: learn something deep about themselves, like Luke, you were a
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: Jedi the whole time, Like it's it's something about me
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: was different. I'm from another place. I am one of
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: these types of people, and now I finally understand the
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: meaning of life and why I am the way I am.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: And that can be way too sensitive to hold on
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: to because as you're already feeling, then there's the sense
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: of anybody who invalidates this, anybody who challenges this, anybody
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: who doesn't immediately accept this. It's like me telling them
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: I'm gay and them saying are you though I remember
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: you had a girlfriend and third grades like fuck you,
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: Like how dare you? And it's like whoa, whoa wah,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: dial it down, like you know, especially with this stuff
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: that like looks for external check ins because again these
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: are usual autism less so, but ADHD is an external
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: facing diagnosis, right, So, like even the assessment measures are
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: saying what do other people think? And that's going to
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: be problematic when you're like, well, they clearly didn't think
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: enough to get me tested when I was younger, so
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: I'm probably not gonna like get scores on these external
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: measures that come back to reinforce this diagnosis right, and
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: then there could be a lot of fear of like, well,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: and I don't want to do it like I want
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: to go do it objectively. I want to find out
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: if this is who I really am, and then I
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: want to present my truth to the world and ask
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: people to renew their understanding of who I am in
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: the face of this important diagnosis. But all of that
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: is to come back to this, the importance of the
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: diagnosis itself. It is being misrepresented in the world as
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: a type of person. And this is part of that
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: six hour deep dive, which is not six fucking hours straightforward.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: It's it's a bunch of episodes. Okay, it's just a
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: six hour series. Yeah, there it is. There is welcome
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: every part too.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 5: Two chapter thirty five, our friends south of the Border
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 5: say dose.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is broken up into pieces. But one
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: of the things that we talk about in that deep
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: dive is how the popular parlance today has been to
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: make this an identity a way of being. It's like
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: discovering that you are gay, and it's not that.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 4: Like.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: Even the phrase neurodivergent is a new thing made up
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: by a person that wrote a book once and was
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: just like a naturalist biographer or something like that, not
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: even an expert in the field, and it just became
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: a popular way to point to a variety of things
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: that just seemed different about people. It wasn't even talking
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: about ad to sheer autism at the time, So like,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: we have definitely made this much bigger than it is.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: The labels in mental health, the diagnoses that we use
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: are different than the diagnostics of other healthcare professions. I
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: have a disease in my stomach called diverticulitis. That is
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: a disease that is a diagnosis that I have that
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: explains a lot of the life experiences, the pain, that
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: discomfort that I live with as a human, But my
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: diagnosis explains that. In mental health it goes the exact
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: opposite way. We take constellations of symptoms qualities that we've
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: discovered in the person, we bundle those and then we
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: name that so at anxiety disorder panic disorder OCD. These
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: are phrases we came up with to describe clusters of
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: symptoms that appear in a person, and we did that
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: to expedite our ability to talk about it and then
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: to codify the treatments that we approach it with, but
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: even with neurodivergent problems or neurodevelopmental problems, we have to
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: be careful that they are not designed to be explanatory
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: in nature. And this is where I think autism and
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: AHD have tried to take on way too much explanatory force.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: And I say that writer to just right size what
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: this assessment is going to mean for you. I think
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: it's valuable, I think you should pursue it, but I
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: also don't want this to carry so much weight in
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: your mind that you're like, I am about to open
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: up the chamber of secrets and discover who I really am.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: I think the number one takeaway people have when they
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: take the assessment is disappointment. They're like, wow, I waited
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: years for this, and the test seemed pretty subjective, Like
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: I just basically just said things like do you have ADHD?
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: Like the questions were that fucking straightforward. And this is
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons why even the assessment measures are
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: very hard for us to take seriously in the field,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: because people that often take these tests want to be
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: diagnosed with this because it would be explanatory in their life.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: And they've yes, looked up the symptoms. None of our
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: questions surprised them. None of them are that tricky, and
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: they just answer them based on what they're feeling at
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: the time. And we know that there's like a little
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: bit of a guiding effect that invalidates some of the
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: objectiveness of the test. So all of that is just
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: to come back to the central point. Hold this loosely. Yes,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: it's important to see this about yourself. Knowing this about
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: yourself is a useful thing. I would argue you don't
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: need this eighteen month away assessment to determine whether you
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: have ADHD and autism. In my opinion, if you read
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: the symptomless and you relate to those, to me, that's sufficient.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: I look at that and go, great, then let's identify
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: you as somebody with ADHG autism. I've had so many
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: people over the years come to my office and they're like, hey,
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: do you think I have AHD? I'm like, great, tell
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: me why you think that? They'll tell me it and
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: I go, yeah, that sounds a lot like ADHD. So
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: do you want to proceed as if that's true? And
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: let's start working on what we can work on. And
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: they're like, no, no, no, I want to know.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's not like cancer, right, it's.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 5: Not like we have to get the exact right chemotherapy
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 5: points at you and everything. Like we're going to do
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 5: a lot of the same things, right, like if you're
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 5: if you're feeling this way or if you have ADHD,
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 5: Like if those two things are both true, then we're at.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: The end of the day, the approach is the same.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: And people treat it sometimes like it's a twenty three
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: and me like they're coming in like I need to
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: know who I really am, Like do I not like
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: rice because this is my genetic code? Or am I
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: lactose intolerance? And it's like, look, you're lactose intolerant. Let's
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: now deal with the fact that you don't sit well
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: with I don't know what your genetic code is, but
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: let's talk about how we're going to live in a
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: world in which that doesn't sit well with you. So writer,
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, for me, I just
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: want to give you that permission that if you look
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: at these symptoms and you say, boy, this sure feels true,
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: and you're not necessarily petitioning for some kind of government
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: support or some kind of special permissions at work or
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: anything that's going to be enabling in your life. Yeah,
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: go do the assessment. But you can go ahead and
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: start living as if this is true now and you
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: don't have to wait for like some judgment day. I
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: think you're going to be disappointed when you finally take
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: the assess.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: How important are the parents the parents feedback? Because I think, yeah,
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: because I think that's kind of the big thing, you know,
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: with what the writer's asking is, like, you know, do
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: I bring this up with them? Is it even worth
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: the fight?
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 3: I was just about to turn back to that. Yeah.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: And I here's the thing when it comes to just
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: the relationship between you and your parents. I trust your judgment, ynhah.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know your parents, you do.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: They are lovely, they're really nice. Okay, well one out
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: of the four people in this room do not know
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: you're Maybe if you answered your phone every once in
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: a while.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: They trust trust your judgment. Now, you know, how valuable
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: is this input from the parents. It's valuable. I think
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: it's I think it's it's it's good, you know. But
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: if there was a way that you're able to just say, hey,
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: I have to be assessed by my doctor, and there's
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: some questions that may be helpful and helping them identify
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: what's going on and giving them very minimal.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 4: Information exactly what I was gonna say, They have these questions,
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 4: can I read through them?
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: What do you think? Can I get your input on these?
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: I don't need to tell you what it's about exactly.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 5: And I was going to say too, like you can
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 5: just tell your parents, like, hey, I'm working on something
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 5: with my doctor here, and there's some questions about my childhood.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 7: That I don't know the answer.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to these. Can you help
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: me out?
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 3: It's just like I'm working on this, can you help me?
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: I like that approach.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 7: I like even just saying doctor not it doesn't have
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 7: to be.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: Like but the suggesting you're all making there, I agree
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: with it. It Also, I think underlines this point that
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: it's not a coming out party. You're not going to
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: visit with your family and sit them down and say
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: there's something you need to know about me. I've discovered
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: my inner truth. Like it's not like you're you're announcing
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: that you're gay. It's really not that. And so we
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: have to be careful because I think writers also saying like,
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: I'm scared they're not gonna get it. They're not going
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: to see how transformative, how big this is. And it's
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: like it's not for the Yeah, they're not going to
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: nobody has to it's for you. I would change that expectation. Yeah,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: I think that's probably your best.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 5: Also, the older you get, the more you're going to
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 5: discover things that are transformative to you don't matter to
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 5: other people. Yeah, Sue, that's this is a fine This
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 5: is a fine time to kind of start getting on
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 5: that train, like.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 7: Yeah, be transformative.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 5: Things that really matter a lot in your life don't
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 5: have to mean anything to anyone else.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 4: So have y'all ever had a friend who's like, oh
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 4: my gosh, I read this book, you have to read
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 4: this book or whatever.
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 7: Yeah, we've all had that. For I say, book, but it.
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: Can be watched with reenags and ham check it out.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 2: The ending will blow your mind.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 3: Bad advice.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 4: That's an example of like like what Jacob's saying, where
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 4: for that person that's recommending it, that was a huge
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 4: impactful moment, Like the space they were in when they
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 4: read that book great, But for you could read it
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 4: and you're like.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe Tony Robbins in't for you.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, but no, like this epiphany mentality, like
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: it all made sense and for the writer, Henry's like, no,
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: this was huge for me. Yeah, to just do a
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: precursory like you know, assessment and realize, I'm like, God
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: like this this, Yes, this explained so much. It's like great, awesome,
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: Like if I'm your therapist, that's SNAREI I'm like wonderful. Yes,
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: let's use this and you and I are now going
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: to explore what this epiphany means in your life and
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: how many ways it applies and how we can start
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: trying to use different interventions to change it. Great, but
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: it isn't going to be something where By the way,
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: there's a hilarious TikTok, my wife showed me this. This
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: guy had a autism reveal party where he went and
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: got assessed and he had all of his friends come
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: over for the autism reveal party and he had them
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: all dress like him and then and then bet with
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: their dress whether he would come out as autistic or not.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: And it is a really funny video, okay, because it's
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: like God, like, you know, people do like the the
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: reveal where it's like there's a color in the cake
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: or something like that. And so he did a thing
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: where it's like he has a balloon and like inside
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: the balloon is the answer the assessment, and so like
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: everybody's there and they're all reading for me, pops the
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: balloon and then it actually turns out to be a
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: puzzle that he had the assessor make for him, and
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: it's like a three hundred piece puzzle, and so he's like,
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: so I decided I want to do this puzzle, but
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: I felt a little overstimulated, so I took the puzzle
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: in my room and left all my friends out there
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: and I did it by myself. It's just really funny. Yeah,
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: the bit goes on, but it's really really funny. So
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: but yeah, just appreciating writer that if you relate to it,
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: if the diagnosis makes sense to you, To me, that
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: has always been enough, like the long drawn out let's
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: go find the specialist and do it. It is not
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: as revealing as people believe. It's not like it's not
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: this epiphany like oh my god, I'm you know ten
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: percent and Orthal explain so much like it just know
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: it'll never be that for you and other people will
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: not resonate with it, and it's not gonna be this
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: lights on moment where they go it all makes sense
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: now in fourth grade, you did this, like you could
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: explain them over time. Yeah, my doctors and I think
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: I probably have ADHD or you know, somewhere on the
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: spectrum of autism. And then you can psycho educate your
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: parents a little bit over the years, but what that
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: usually means and how that appears in your life, and
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: hopefully they take a curious approach, they don't dispute it,
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: and then from time to time they make be like,
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, yeah, you were kind of like that as
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: a kid. Yeah, Like that's about as much validation as
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: I think you should expect.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think it's hard when you're close with your
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 4: family too, She says, she sees them really often, and
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 4: it's kind of like a connecting thing. You want to
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 4: feel seen and heard, right, So that makes it really tough.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 4: I hear you.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of telling people before you reveal
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: something like that. I had a family member years ago
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: come out to me and like that was okay important
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: and like, but I did not know what they needed
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: from me, and I accidentally stepped on the wrong thing
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: because I thought I should go with, Okay, thank you
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: for sharing this with me. I accept this. This is
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: you know, I love you. Yeah, And I don't know
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: if you were fearing my reaction, but like this is
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: lovely and I'm flattered and honored that you shared it.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: But what they really wanted was you to stop using
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: homophobic slur right. I dropped as in there, yeah, and
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: I was like, I don't understand. Why are you crying?
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: I don't understand what's going on? No, and like it
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: just it was an unfortunate situation where they were like,
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: I am devastated that you are not celebrating this and
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: validating it and saying that you knew all along. And
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: to me, that feels like rejection. And I was like, oh,
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: I was going with like even handed, like dude reaction,
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: don't don't make any sudden movements. I totally am cool
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: with douse. I accepted, was that what you needed from
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: me today?
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: So they wanted you to treat them coming out the
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: same way that you want them to celebrate your birthday exactly.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 6: Yeah, extravaganza just dudes in go pants, you know, like
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 6: everything I want, all the things. Yeah, So yeah, exactly
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 6: if it's not, Marti gras it was enough, but yeah,
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 6: so like I would have done a lot better if
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 6: that person would have come to me and said, so, listen,
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 6: I have something important I want to tell you. And
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 6: I think I am hoping that this is something that
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 6: you find exciting and good and that that this invigorates
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 6: you and that I wonder if it's even something that
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 6: you've seen in me before, that is great.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 5: That is the talk that I want from each and
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 5: every person that is telling me that they are pregnant
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 5: as well.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, I want That is a tough one to read.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 3: You got to tell me if you want me to
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 3: be happy or support.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 6: That's are you on your way to the abortion clinic?
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: And Rocks joke on that He's like, He's like, if
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: she says that she's pregnant, you got to.
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: Say, oh, this is wonderful, this is so I'm so happy.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: And if you're not comfortable saying that, the only other
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: thing you can say is so, what you're gonna do?
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: You got two moves? Yeah, confetti in the air? What now? Yeah?
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: So writer, temper what you're looking for? Make sure that
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: you understand that you get to decide whether this is
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: true for you, the assessment probably doesn't matter as much.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: Uh that external validation probably won't matter as much. And
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: then also right sizing the expectation of what you're hoping
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: other people will say in reaction to this, and not
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: being afraid to telegraph to them. Look, this is an
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: epiphany for me. Here's my reactions to this thing I'm
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: about to share with you. It felt relieving, it felt confirming,
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: it felt validating. It's been very useful to think differently
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: about my life and myself and my future since I've
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: discovered this, And I think it's a great thing that
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: would help. Because if you my child came to me
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: and said I've been diagnosed with a mental illness, my
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: first move is, oh my god, are you okay. I'm
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: so sorry to hear that. No, No, no, maybe it's
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: not true.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 3: Great thing in relief, isn't They're not the first thing
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 3: to pop into your head, right.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: I'm trying, yeah, exactly, So like most parent responses are
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: going to be like trying to comfort you, and secretly
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: you're like, no, I was hoping you'd validate this, and
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: it's like okay, so yeah, telegraph that ahead of time.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: we are wrapping up the show. You're listening to Pop Therapy.
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by Jake Snyder, Maleia,
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: Richard Macy, Sonny Boy, Thunder Srugar, Falcon Scoops, The Motherfuckerer, Elena,
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: and Sam Cone. If you would like to become a
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: their producer, head on over to patreon dot com slash
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: therapy and sign up today.
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: I've got more I want.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 3: Let's do it.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: Let's country is Old York. If it's a pudding place,
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: all right.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: Jacob Van goes Starry Night is on display in which
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: New York City attraction subway?
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: Oh, I believe it is a subway sandwich, the.
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: Combo and whatever that screaming boy is having. It's either
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: that or Yankee Stadium.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's one of the two places. I
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 5: think it's either the met or MoMA. I think it
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 5: might be MoMA, though I'm gonna go MoMA.
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: Two points.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 3: Modern art is.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 7: Very cultured years it's exciting.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: Whitney, Which iconic New York City bridge was the longest
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: suspension bridge in the world when it opened in eighteen
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: eighty three. Oh, my god.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 7: Bridge two points.
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: Honestly, with all my heart, I thought London Bridge.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 7: That one's falling down.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, London Bridge in New York. Well it's the only city. Yeah,
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: now it's the bridge. It's actually yeah, that's a good point.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: I got it. Come on, Jim, what is the only
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: US president buried in New York City? Oh my god?
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: Oh I am going to hate the answer to this question.
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, because it's it's a trick question.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: Oh it is.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 3: It is about a second.
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's not in the city limits.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 3: Probably it is.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: Uh, the only part of him is buried.
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think back to half that's the halfway
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: Bear from South we're fighting.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: To sunder. I think so they went to the King
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: and then I think, I think a hit joke. Oh boy,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: buried in New York geez man. I mean, there's so
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: many people that came from New York. You'd think they'd
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: want to be buried there be I think like Teddy
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: Roosevelt was like I don't know, the fucking mayor or
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: something like that, And John F. Kennedy is from New York.
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 2: That seems relevant.
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 3: NOFLR it was Connecticut, Yeah, Connecticut.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he had that New York accent. No, that was Massachusetts,
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: like I'm walking in Kennedy. Welcome to all right, all right,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: give me options. Let's I'm gonna need this. Ulysses S.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: Grant, William Taft, Franklin, d Roosevelt Franklin or Andrew Johnson.
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 7: Dude Johnson, the Johnson.
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 2: I mean I'm stuck between and big.
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 3: Johnson and uh Andrew B.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: Johnson in Uh give me Ulysses S. Grant one point, Yes,
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: very good trick question. He's not buried, Oh he's still No,
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: it's an above ground tomb.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 3: He is entombed in New York. He's not buried in
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 3: New York. Grant's tomb.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 7: That's a good spot located at what cross.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 5: It's been a long time since I've visited Grant's tomb
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 5: on a school field trip in eighth grade.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: I got three more You want to go or should
• 1:38:01
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• 1:40:29
  Speaker 3: Here's a picture of the sarcopha guy in Grants too.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 2: By the way, that's just the dead guy.
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 3: That's a Grant and his and his wife are both
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 3: entombed and Grants.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: It's like a pharaohs. When he died, they just throw
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: her like well, no, no, it's two different one.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 3: I'll bet you there's claw.
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 4: You probably had to see that on his trip since
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 4: all the Louisiana tombs are above ground.
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 7: Let's just look at that one too. Looks familiar.
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: Which New York City hotel was the first to offer
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: room service, Oh oh, options, the plaza.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 3: Put your hand down with me.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 2: The walls