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SMNTY Interviews: Allison Raskin · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm of some stuff.
• 0:07
  Speaker 3: I never told you a protection of iHeartRadio and today
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: we are so happy to be joined by relationship coach, screenwriter, author,
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: podcaster so much more Allison Askin, thank you so much
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: for joining us.
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: Hey, welcome, Ah, thank you for having me.
• 0:33
  Speaker 5: It is a delight to be here.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: It is a delight.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: I have to say.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: I was reading one of your books last night and
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: I was crying.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: You've got me good.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was just I was just thinking about things.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: I was just being introspective, which we're going to talk about,
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: but you brought up a lot of like, you know what,
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: I should really examine that, I should really think about
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: that for me. But yes, we're so so so excited
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: to have you. We're so lucky we get to talk
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: to amazing people in the show. Can you please introduce
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: yourself to our audience.
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: I can, and I will try to be as concise
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: as possible, just because I've done a.
• 1:15
  Speaker 5: Lot of different things.
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: But I'd say that how I present myself now is
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: I'm a relationship coach, a mental health advocate, and I'm
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: also a podcaster and writer. So I came up you
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: if you were big into BuzzFeed video back in the day.
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: That sort of launched my career. From there, I had
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: a YouTube channel called Just between Us that's now a
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: podcast with my co host, Gabe Dunn. And then in
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: addition to just going the more like mainstream like trying
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: to sell TV shows, movies, track, I also sort of
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: took this pivot in my career into like the mental
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: health space. So I got a master's degree in psychology,
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: and I've written two nonfiction books about the intersection between
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: mental health and romantic relationships. And then, most recently, which
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: I'm really excited to talk about, I have my first
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: rom com novel coming out, which sort of lets me
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: examine all of those things in a fictional fun lens.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: And that book is called Save the Date and it's
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: out April eighth. So I'm very excited to be venturing
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: into that new genre as an author and just as
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: like a fan.
• 2:24
  Speaker 6: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, we're going to talk about that more for sure later.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: But congratulations, that's awesome, Thank you. Yes, it is difficult
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: when we have there are so many topics we could
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: obviously ask you about because you have done so much,
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: and it can be hard to narrow it down to
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: this can't be like a ten part series. Well I
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: guess it could be, but that's not what it is. Today.
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: I am available.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: As a regular because that's a huge topic in conversation.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Relationships and mental health. Is that, Man, it's a lot.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot to cover, it is, and that
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: was definitely one of the things we wanted to focus
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: on in this conversation because you talk a lot about
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: the intersection of mental health when it comes to relationships.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: So just to give us kind of a foundation, can
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: you break down some basic ways that mental health and
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: relationships can intersect.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: Definitely, So I really like to think about it as
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: romantic relationships, and a lot of what I end up
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: saying about romantic relationships do apply to you know, friendships,
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: family relationships. But you know, for the sake of clarity,
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: I kind of come into it through the romantic relationship lens.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: You know, that's the area of our life where we
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: are the most vulnerable, where we are expected to be
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: like the most intimate, and it's also.
• 3:55
  Speaker 5: An area of our life where rejection.
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: Is the most common outcome, right Like often, you know,
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: we feel a different not everyone, but there's you know,
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: like friendship breakups aren't talked about the same way like
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: family estrangement obviously happens, but it's definitely not the norm
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: where when you enter into the dating world, like rejection
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  Speaker 4: is sort of inevitable, right, And so it can really
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: impact our mental health in this way because on the
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: one hand, it can just really alter our sense of
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  Speaker 4: self and the way that we handle that rejection and
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: the beliefs we have around rejection. And additionally, because it's
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: this area where we are so vulnerable, it can sort
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: of exacerbate underlying mental health issues that we might be
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: dealing with. So it might be this sense of where
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  Speaker 4: we're losing control of ourselves, where our anxiety is peaked
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: more than it would normally be, or it's just that
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: you struggle with your mental health and now you're having
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: to have this new person be witnessed to that right
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: to see what it is like to live with OCD,
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: what it is like to live with being bipolar, to
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: really let them in with this understanding that they can
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: then say no thank you, which is really terrifying.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it certainly is. And you were You've been very
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: open about your own experiences in that realm of having
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: something like OCD and dating and how that can manifest
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  Speaker 3: in this huge variety of ways. Can you talk a
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: little bit about some of the ways that dating can
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: look differently for someone who has anxiety or who has OCD.
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  Speaker 4: So the obsessionality can be really amped up, right, So,
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: like I remember when I was dating, like if someone
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: didn't text me back, that became intolerable, Like I could
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: not just exist in the world knowing that someone I
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: liked had in texted me back, Like it was it
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: was all consuming, it was all I thought about. And
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  Speaker 4: then the reaction is to try to make that distress
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  Speaker 4: go away by sending the second text, by sending the
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: third text, by sort of engaging in this way that
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  Speaker 4: I objectively knew was not how I wanted to be
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: presenting myself to that person, but I felt unable to
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: control it because my desire to alleviate the discomfort was
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: so huge. And so that's sort of how we can
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: sort of like lose track of ourselves where it's like
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: why did I behave like that?
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  Speaker 5: It's like, because you.
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: Were just so in such dysregulation and so much distress,
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: you were doing anything you could to feel better. But
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: unfortunately the roots to feel better ended up maybe harming
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: the relationship that you were trying to st Also, just
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: the idea of checking, right, Like a lot of OCD
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  Speaker 4: can be around checking if that something is okay. So
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: the checking of like, you know, do you like me?
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: Do you like me enough? Where is this going? You know?
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: I was very insistent on feeling like it was heading
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: every relationship was heading towards commitment, and then every relationship
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: was heading towards marriage and unfortunately, like that's not like
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: super fun or viable in your mid twenties with a
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: lot of people, and you know, looking back at the time,
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: I was like, well, that's just what I wanted for myself.
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: And now I realized like it was me trying to
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: find a sense of safety. I felt that if I
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: could get to that level of commitment, then I could
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: finally relax, I could finally feel in control of my life.
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: And it was only once I had my broken engagement
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: and my fiance left that I was like, oh, these
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: goalposts don't actually provide safety. Like you can be engaged,
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: they can leave abruptly in the middle of the week.
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: You can be married and you end up divorce. Like
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: the illusion of safety doesn't actually exist or protect you.
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: And so I've had to really reshape my relationship towards
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: uncertainty in all areas of my life and my tolerance
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: for discomfort to be able to still strive to have
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: the relationships that I want to have while accepting the
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: risk that's inherent in having them.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Sounds like you've had to work through a lot in
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: get in getting here, as well as learning about it
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: through an educational lens, which is I'm very fascinated by this.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: We'll come back to that, because one of the things
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: when you talk about relationships and when you talk about
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  Speaker 1: mental health lately, that's a whole TikTok trip, right, Everybody
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: trying to find these little like diagnosis and telling you
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  Speaker 1: what's wrong with you and telling you have this and
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  Speaker 1: these are the signs in your relationships. But with that,
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  Speaker 1: we know people get it wrong. So what are some
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: of the things that you think a lot of people
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: get wrong when they think about this or have this
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: conversation or try to do this as a trend.
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  Speaker 4: I have a very mixed relationship towards diagnosing and pathologizing
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  Speaker 4: because for me, having had an OCD diagnos since since
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  Speaker 4: I was four years old was actually so helpful and
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  Speaker 4: so affirmative in my life that the way that I
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: was behaving was because of a disorder in my brain.
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: Like I take a very externalizing approach to my OCD.
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  Speaker 4: I view it as an illness. I view it as
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  Speaker 4: something that is on top of my true self. And
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: by being able to do that and being able to
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  Speaker 4: label certain thoughts as OCD thoughts, it allows me to
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  Speaker 4: stay true to who I am and to not give
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  Speaker 4: it as much.
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  Speaker 5: Power over me.
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  Speaker 4: So I'm very pro diagnosis when it is helpful and.
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  Speaker 5: True, right.
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  Speaker 4: I think that sometimes there can be an overpathologizing that
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: is happening that actually leads to a lack of flexibility
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  Speaker 4: that is necessary for us to like adapt to what
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: is actually happening in our different context. It's like, and
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  Speaker 4: it can also lead to sort of like limited information
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: around something if you're getting it from just like a
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  Speaker 4: really quick and easy source.
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  Speaker 5: Like so, for.
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  Speaker 4: Example, there's like a lot around attachment style. That's that's
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  Speaker 4: very you know, zeitgeisty and attachment is a really important
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  Speaker 4: thing to understand and it's helpful to know about. But
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  Speaker 4: I think something people don't understand is that your attachment
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: style can change, right like and and honestly the goal
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: is for it to change and to become secure. And
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: also your attachment style can show up differently in different relationships.
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  Speaker 4: So it's I think that some people have taken it
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: on as an identity and I find I find that
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  Speaker 4: that could potentially be harmful because it it it makes
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: it seem like growth is impossible and that change in
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: relationship isn't possible. And it also it becomes this shorthand
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: that sort of oversimplifies the complexity that is each of
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: our own individual experiences.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that that's one of the things I love
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: about your writing is that you are you delve into
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  Speaker 3: those complexities and those nuances and how it can because
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of times, you know, when
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: you're in a relationship or when you break up, you
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: want to be like that person was wrong. It definitely
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: wasn't me that kind of that kind of talk, but
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: you were, you were very like, well, here's what was
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: going on here, and hear what was going on here,
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: like looking into all of all of what was happening
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: and the mistakes people made. But something else you talked
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: about that really resonated with me. Is that you for
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: a while held onto this belief that you would find
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: your one true love and they would fix you, that
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: would be that that's just what you needed, and it
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: was like part of your driving factor of why you
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: wanted to find this life partner and why it was
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: so stressful and when it came to dating. So can
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: you talk about why that was and what it meant
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: for you when you realized that it wasn't true.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of it had to do with,
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: you know, growing up mentally ill and not having good
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: social skills and really struggling in my friendships and in dating,
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: and feeling like an outsider that I wasn't living life
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: correctly and that I was just like waiting for the
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: next phase, like for my life to really start and
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: begin and to feel comfortable in my own skin. And
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: I really felt that by being chosen, by having this
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: like life partner and buddy, that I could like relax,
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: you know, that I could sink into that. My parents
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: had a really beautiful marriage until my mother unfortunately passed
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: away this last September, and they were such a rock
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: for me that I was like, well, if I can
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: just get what they have, then I'll finally feel like
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: at peace with myself and I'll be able to engage
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: in life and enjoy my experiences more. And you know
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: what shifted for me wasn't that I stopped wanting a partner, right, Like,
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: that's like a that would be like a fun neat
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: story of like, and then I learned I just needed
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: to be by myself. Like that's actually not my journey
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: and a narrative that I kind of actively push against
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: because what I've come to understand is having a life
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: partner or having periods of your life with the partner.
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: You know, not all partnerships last till death, but it's
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: a lifestyle choice. It's just a way that you build
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: your day to day life that is different than people
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: that don't want that choice, right, Like, I'm someone that
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: just genuinely thrives and enjoys partnership. I really love living
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: with my husband. I love having a husband. I love
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: the friendship that our marriage brings with it. I love
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: that like there's another person to walk the dog, that
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: there's someone that makes me dinner and that I show
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: up for and he shows up for me, and we
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: are checking in on each other, and there is like
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: this interdependence that I really find a lot of strength
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: and freedom in, Like I always say, like, it would
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: have been much harder for me to complete my grad
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: school program if I didn't have my husband there like
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: helping me. And now he's in grad school full time
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: and I'm supporting him while he does that, and that's like,
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: that's like sort of what like the strength of partnership.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: But what I had to adjust to was this idea
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: that without that piece, I was worthless, right, because that's
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: a step that's unnecessary. It's unnecessary to say that without
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: someone picking me, I my life has no value or
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: something is wrong with me. Instead, it was coming to
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: terms with the fact that like I had to really
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: like myself. I had to become someone that I really liked,
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: and then through that I could attract someone that felt
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: the same way, rather than attracting someone that maybe like
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: was like half in not in or feeling like I
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: had to change for them. And it also created this
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: different dynamic where when I was dating, it was like
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: take me, like not take me or leave me, because
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: I you know, I don't like love the If you
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: can't have me at my worst, you know you don't
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: deserve me.
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: At my best.
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: Like we we're responsible for our our actions and we
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: shouldn't treat our partners badly. But you know, like a
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: level of like someone's rejection did not sway me the
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: way that it would have because I was more secure
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: in who I was. So it became safer to engage
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: with dating because rejection, while painful, wasn't mentally dangerous. It
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: wasn't destabilizing in the same way. It was more like, Okay,
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: onto the next because like, I know what I want
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: and who I am, and I like that, and so
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: that was the shift more so than rejecting my desire
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: for partnership.
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: If that makes sense.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I'm
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: not gonna lie. I'm sitting here. I'm like analyzing the
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: characters of Sex and the City as I know. That's
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: a weird moment. I'm like, Charlotte really needed to hear this.
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: I absolutely love that that's where you were going.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know why that just popped in my head,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: but I was like, yeah, instead of myself probably absolute
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: need this advice. I'm just like Charlotte, I'm definitely hard.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: She's someone that thrives in partnership, right, but she had
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: to figure out how to how to approach it in
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: a in a healthier way.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: See, maybe we need to you back on to watch.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: We do a series where we watch and then analyze
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: what's happening and how well it stood up at the
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: test of time. Maybe we need you to come and
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: be a part of that episode.
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: I would be honored.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: I love that show for better worse.
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: I could watch it all day long, every day.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: All with all the bad, there's some real good stuff
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: in it, and the rewatch has been amazing. But yeah,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: I think we're gonna have to put that as a
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: side note. Alan Text in the City Obviously, Again, all
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: this is such great advice, and you're writing it out
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: to give this people advice. You're also doing the relationship coaching,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: which I know you said you've done a few appointments
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: today just today alone, which is awesome. So in your
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: work you've spoken about disparities you've seen around mental health
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: and the marginalized folks and the communities. Can you speak
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: about that, because that's seems like such a big important
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: conversation we don't have enough of when it comes to relationships.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: So, I mean, look, the history of psychology is not
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: a pretty one. It's like been very much built around
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: like white males, like white straight males, and so I
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: understand why there's definitely reluctance in certain communities to really
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: engage with mental health treatment and mental health professionals because
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: there's an inherent distrust that I think deserves to be there.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: And I find that to be just kind of heartbreaking
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: for those communities because you know, for every bad clinician,
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: there's a good clinician, and so it but the issue
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: is how do you rebuild the trust in different communities
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: that either are have had negative experiences or have been
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: taught that that's not something that they should seek out
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: because there's still a.
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: Lot of stigma around it. And so what I'm really.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: Hoping is is just that the access you know, that's
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: one of the positives of this social media at all,
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: is like having access to more voices in the in
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: the mental health field, hearing from other people who have
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: had better experiences. And something I think that's really important
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: to do is to make it known what bad therapy
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: looks like, because if you don't know what bad therapy
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: looks like, you might be having a bad experience and thinking, well,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: that's me or you know, like I'm not fixable or
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: I'm just a bad client, and it's like, no, there
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: are just bad therapists help there and we don't ever
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: talk about that. And so like things to look for are,
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: you know, as someone who is like tries to assume
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: expertise over your own life, right, like you're the expert
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: in your life, and someone that is a ten to
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: like overpower that or in some way really use like
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: an even power dynamic to put you down if you're
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: feeling judged by a therapist, if you feel like your
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: therapist has absolutely no understanding of your culture. You know,
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: you see this a lot where people from certain really
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: community family focused cultures, the therapists will just be like, well,
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: just don't just don't see your parents, like just don't
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: go to family events anymore, if like that's stressful to you,
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: and it's like, excuse me, I'm from like a Latin
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: community and I can't possibly do that, Like what are
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: you talking about? You know, So finding therapists that are
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: you know, have cultural humility is really important. Finding therapists
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: that understand what you're actually dealing with. Not all therapists
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: are specialized in every.
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: Issue or disorder.
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: Right, so there's going to be therapists that are not
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: very familiar with OCD, or therapists that are not super
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: trauma informed and then are trying to CBT your way
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: out of trauma. That isn't going to work. And so
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: I think really empowering people to have a better understanding
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: of what to expect and to let them know that
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: these are people that they're they're flawed and that, and
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: that you're allowed to be picky around who you who
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: you engage with, and and you know, having started this
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: coaching business, I definitely had some reservations around being a
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: relationship coach, especially having gotten a master's in psychology and
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: being in school with people that were going the licensing route,
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: and you know, part of me was like, is this unethical?
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: Like am I just sort of like cheating the system
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: by you know, being a.
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: Coach where I don't have a I don't have a license.
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: There is not a.
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: Licensing board that is supervising, you know that, Like someone
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: can't just like go and complain to me about me
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: to a licensing board. But what's been really interesting in
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: doing the work is I think that coaching allows for
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: some freedom and directiveness that traditional therapy doesn't. And so
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: I think that there really is space for both of
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: these things, and it's about what you want and what
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: you're looking for. So one of the reasons I didn't
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: become a licensed therapist is because I'm a public figure.
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, you probably haven't heard of me, but if
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: you look me up on the internet, there's like, you know,
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: hundreds of hours of me talking.
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: You can read my books like you can.
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: You know so much about me if you wanted to
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: engage with that, And I felt like that wasn't going
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: to be safe for certain clients under the traditional therapy model.
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: I felt like that if you're going to a therapist,
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: you really want them to be maybe not a blank slate,
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: but to not know the intimate personal details of their life.
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: That's just not what the what the field is set
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: up around. And so I felt like I couldn't really
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: work within the confines of therapy.
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: But I also felt like I.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: Really did want to do this work with people and coaching,
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: I think the buy in is so different. The buy
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: in is that they do know who I am, and
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: that they do know the things that I have gone through,
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: and so like maybe whereas like if you went to
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: your therapist and you were like, I just saw video
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: that you had a broken engagement, Like why would I
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: trust you? My clients come to me and they're like,
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: I saw you survived a broken engagement.
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: That's why I trust you.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: And so I think it's kind of exciting that there
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: are these two kind of different options. And coaching also
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: really allows me to be much more directive, Like I
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: can give my opinion in a way that like therapists
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: really are not supposed to. I do it with you know,
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: in communication with my client, I'm always like, you can
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: push back, you don't have to agree with me. How
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: is this feeling? But they're they're they're coming to me
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: because they want a more directive approach, And I think
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: that that can really be an avenue for people who,
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: you know, have felt maybe that therapy was just them
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: talking and they weren't really getting the advice or tools
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: or strategies that they're looking for. And and so I
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: think it's I think it's exciting that that there's both.
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: But you know, I also have a huge obligation to
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: be as ethical as possible, to let people know my limitations,
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: to make it very clear I'm not licensed, but I
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: think I think whereas when I started this it was
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: more like, oh, no, is it bad, I'm not a therapist.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: Now I'm like, oh, I love that I'm not a therapist.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Right, No, I think that that makes perfect sense because
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of people who come into like coaching routes,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: like life coaching all that, oftentimes do it because they're
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: they're good at giving advice and people like their advice.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: But the fact that you actually went ahead and did
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: your education and did a background that says a lot
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: to how grounded you are in that work. So absolutely
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: kudos with all of that. And I do have a
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: couple of questions. My background is in social work, and
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: honestly I did not go into licensing or any of
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: that as well. I did not do the micro practices
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: in general, however, cause I do have two parts, so
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: one I'll split it up. So here's the first part.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: What's the advice you have when it comes to talking
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: about your mental health with a partner.
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: This is really tricky, right, because sometimes when you're just
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: starting to date and you've had a pretty significant mental
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: health history, there's a desire to sort of share compulsively
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: where it's like, let me just put it all out
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: there so that you can either say yes or.
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: No to my entire life.
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: And what I really advise people to do instead is
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: to share with purpose and to being control of the
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: sharing and what they're sharing and why they're sharing it. So,
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: for example, you know, if you are just still casually
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: getting to know someone, it might be okay to be like, yeah,
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: I have anxiety, I take you know, I take zol
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: Oft and I found it really helpful, and then you
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: like continue bowling. But if you are getting you know,
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: deeper and more close with someone, then it can make
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: sense to go more into like all the history and
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: the things that have happened. But also I think it's
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: it can be really important to lead with who you
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: are now right because sometimes there are elements of our
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: mental health story that can be rather shocking and upsetting
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: but is not necessarily a representative of who we are
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: in this moment, and so I think it can be
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: important to say, like, you know, right now, like I'm
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: in therapy, I'm doing really well, this is something that
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: I'm on top of. Yes, in the past, like I
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: did really struggle with suicidal ideation, and maybe you know,
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: maybe you even had an attempt, but that's different than
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: being actively suicidal in this moment, and like being able
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: to say, like, and here are the steps that I
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: took to protect myself from you know, falling back into
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: that into that place. And so I think that really
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: presenting your mental health history as something that is your
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: responsibility is also a way to keep the person from
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: feeling like they are now taking on that by being
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: with you. It's really saying like, this is a thing
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: that I've been dealing with and that I'm I'm on
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: top of, and so I'm telling you because I want
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: you to get to know me more, not because this
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: is your problem to deal with or to fix. And
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: if you're someone where it's like you're in a place
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: where you don't really have a handle on those things,
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: then that might just be as that might just be
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: an indicator that that looking for a relationship right now
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: might not be the might not be the best thing
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: for you.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: That's one of those moments where like when you're coming
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: out with all the trauma all at once, with all
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: the peoples, you might want to think about handling that
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: trauma just for a minute.
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: But the way with the way we share signals how
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: the other person receives it. Right, So if I share
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: with shame, if I share with agitation, if I share
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: with the expectation that you're going to be shocked or
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: uncomfortable or like really uninterested afterwards, then that person's going
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: to kind of take take those that agitation and feelings on.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: But if you share from a place of ownership, if
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: you share from a place of I have I have
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: an understanding of this, I have a conceptualization of what
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: has happened, and I'm just giving you information so that
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: you can get to know me. The way they're going
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: to receive that information is likely different, all right.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: So this is the second part, because as a person
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: who's been in the field for a while, how do you,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: as the person who has seen these things, has worked
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: with people, separate analyzing everybody to death from your relationships?
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? When I come into
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: like new relationship, my immediate with like, let me diagnose
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: them with the following things. These are things that I
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: see of you, like, how do you do how do
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: you stop that?
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: That's so interesting. I guess I don't have too too
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: much of that instinct.
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: I will say a disproportionate amount of people in my
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: life probably have OCD, and I have wondered if that
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: is just like like attracting like or like what that's about,
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: do you know? And so that that that can sometimes
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: be Probably maybe the thing that that that pops up
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: the most for me is like if I'll see certain
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: you know, and I think I'll see certain OCD tendencies,
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: or they'll they'll like end up sharing that with me
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: to sort of gauge my reaction on it. But I
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: think for the most part, I've I've gotten to a
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: place of I'm not so interested and necessarily like diagnosing someone.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: I'm interested in understanding them. And so like if I
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: if I learn something about their family, It'll be like,
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: oh and that makes sense blank. Like if I learned
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: something about their job or their or how they view
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: the world, then I'll be like okay, Like it's sort
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: of like I'm putting these puzzle pieces together rather than
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: like hunting for like a label or something like that.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been I've been accused of bane little too
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: too intense with my.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Question perhaps how you've got on this show.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: Because you're at a cheese Nike together and all of
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: a sudden I'm spilling my heart out, Tom.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: And then my next conversation is we need therapy. We
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: should do this all the mic.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Anyway here, Definitely, this is something.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: This is actually a conversation. We have a lot Smith
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: and I on this show. You are very open about
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: a lot of things that have happened in your life,
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: and we often we talk about where are our boundaries
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: and what is helpful and what is not helpful for us,
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: And that conversation can look different for everybody. But but
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: for you, do you have you found kind of your
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: like a balance in what you'll share and what you won't.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Is it something you find really liberating or is it
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: something you find frightening or all of the above.
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: My rule is really about what is mine and what
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: is someone else's. So I'd say that the biggest boundaries
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: I have are with things that involve other people. So
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: I have to be really mindful about when I'm talking
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: about something regarding my husband or my.
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: Family or other beings.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: So that's where like there's stuff where like you got like,
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: my audience just has no idea about certain areas of
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: my life. And it's not because I want to keep
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: it from them. It's because I have to honor the
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: privacy of people in my life and who I care about.
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: And then I'd say, the only other really big boundary
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: I have is around, like my sex life is something
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: I really don't like talking about. I had to write
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: about it and Overthinking about You because I was like,
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: this would just not be fair not to And so
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: at the time I just told my mom and dad,
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: I was like, just don't read chapter six. And you know, honestly, like,
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: now that my mom is dead and my dad doesn't
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: really listen to my stuff, I'm like, who knows what's coming?
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Now?
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: That's been. That's been probably.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: Like the biggest boundary that is that is mine that
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: I've sort of created because of my comfort level. But
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: if you read again, if you read chapter six of Overthinking.
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: About You, you will sort of learn quite quite a bit.
• 33:19
  Speaker 7: H you got that far, I can tell you were
• 33:26
  Speaker 7: you were very uncomfortable, but you you're fighting through it.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Very Yeah, it was great.
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: It was very because you were so open about it
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: and you were like, I am uncomfortable. I'm going to
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: tell you, but we're going to get through this.
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: And then I had to read the audio book.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I was like Oh my.
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: God, why did I put this print?
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, we just had not like a couple of
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: years ago. We just had that experience of like, if
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: we had known this was the audio, we would have
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: not been in this way.
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: You have the audio engineer.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: He was like you real quick.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: Something else that you have written a lot about are
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: modern relationships and marriage, which makes sense. What are some
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: of the ways that you think modern relationships are different
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: just inherently kind of things are changing.
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: They're not societally required in the same way, which is
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: so exciting, right.
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: I mean, boomers have like the highest divorce rate, and
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: I think it's because they had to get married, and
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: they had to do it young, and they had to
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: do it without you know, as much discernment as maybe
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: they wanted to have, because it was a certain time,
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: a certain place. Here's who I'm dating, let's get to go.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: And I think, you know, as someone who is actually
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: really pro marriage, I think one of the best things
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: about modern marriage is less people are getting married. And
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: that's good good because marriage isn't for everyone, and it
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: doesn't make sense for everyone, and it is a very
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: specific choice that has to align with your values and
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: what you want for yourself. And I also think, you know,
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: as I explored a lot and I do. I think
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: the idea that now we get to create what marriage
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: is for us as a partnership between two individuals, rather
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: than trying to fit ourselves into the institution of marriage
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: and whatever that is like preconceived to be. Like my
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: marriage can look totally different than your marriage, and like
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: how wonderful is that?
• 35:38
  Speaker 5: So rather than like a.
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: Complete rejection of the institution, I really encourage people to
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: have a reimagining of it and also decide if it's
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: something that even makes sense for them.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: I love that I say this as a person also
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: in a very weird place of like, nah, I'm good,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: no marriage from me. I've seen that. I'm good. We're
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: fine with the partnership here, but with marriages and a
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: lot of experiences, we're gonna let's let's talk about your
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: newest release. Uh, how was this experience of writing a
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: fictional rom com like rom com book that obviously you
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: said you were a fan of, especially because you involved
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: your own life like you did some real personal like
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: perspective into a rom com. Tell us about this experience.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: So Save the Date was based on a joke my
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: father made and he's so proud of himself, which was
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: basically in twenty twenty, my fiance just like abruptly left
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: me with like little to no explanation, and it was
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: like peak pandemic. Like I had to fly home to
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: New York to grieve, but like I had to like
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: be in a mask and separated from my family for
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: the first week, and like the first few days afterwards,
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: like when I was still in LA Like my friends
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: came to visit me, but like they couldn't hug me,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: So I'm just like sobbing.
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: In a parking lot and they're just like reaching towards me.
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: But like it was just as dramatic as as it
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: could possibly be.
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: And so I get home and I'm like recovering.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: I'm recuperating, and my dad is like, well, you know,
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: we still have a wedding planner, Like why don't you
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: just try to find a groom in time for your
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: original wedding?
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: And I was like, Dad, that is bonkers.
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: What a wonderful idea for a fictional story. So you know,
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: it wasn't something I dived into right away, like I,
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: you know, obviously needed space to heal. I needed space
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: to fall in love again and sort of like emerge
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: from that chapter in my life in order to kind
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: of go back.
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: And fictionalize it.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: But it was really fun to sort of like I
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: kind of describe it as sort of like a multiverse
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: version of my broken engagement, like if I had taken
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: a different route, because so much of what happened during
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: that time was that I had been writing over Thinking
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: About You during period of my life, and so I
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: actively had to sit down and delete my fiance from
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: my book, like I had to like go through and
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: like edit him out and it, and like the entire
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: final chapter of Overthinking About You was a chapter about
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: my relationship with him and how we were building.
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: This beautiful life for ourselves. I to just I have
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: to just cut the whole thing out, and I had to.
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: I had to come up with a new like a
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: new ending. And the ending went from you know, how.
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: Do you know, how do you build a life together?
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: To like how do you not give up?
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: Like how do you keep going even after your very
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: worst fear came true? Which to me was like just
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: like being rejected by this person I'd finally felt that
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: level of safety with And how do I not have
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: this massive backslide in my sense of self and my
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: mental health and all of these things. I ended up
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: like applying all of the lessons I'd learned in my
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: research to myself. And so then I really wanted the
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: novel to to incorporate that story as well, to not
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: just be like, you know, it's Zany obviously, like she's
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: obviously behaving badly in a lot of ways by kind
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: of keeping to this plan, but but you know, to
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: to have it be more than just saving her personal face,
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: but her sort of trying, you know. In the book,
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: Emma is a is a couple therapists sort of turned YouTuber,
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: So she she has this like online following and there's
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: this like public element to what she's doing, and so
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: for her it really becomes more about sort of like
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: making this point about love and about and about commitment
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: and compatibility and how you know, I think in the
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: Western culture, we have this idea that things have to
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: follow this very specific timeline and path before it's acceptable
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: to get married. Where you know, another cultures, it's like
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: you don't have that same expectation of having known each
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: other for as long. And so she was sort of
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: pushing back against some of these cultural norms and ideas,
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: and it allowed me to sort of explore that stuff
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: within this really fun structure and genre of a of
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: a traditional rom com. So it really got to scratch
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: both my itch as like a as a as a
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: fiction writer, a screenwriter, and then also as as you know,
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: a mental health advocate and relationship expert.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: Yes, I love that. Well, you've mentioned you you're a
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: big fan of a genre rom comms.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: We over here love tropes.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Why do you think some of these romance these rom
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: com tropes, why are they so enduring? And what do
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: you think are some of the most harmful ones?
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: Ooh interesting.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: I think every story has been told before, like you know,
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: I think that there's this idea that like you know,
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: that's similar to that?
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: How dare you?
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: And it's like everything is similar to everything. The difference
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: is the details and there can and there's a reason
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: that certain tropes and stories and plot points work because
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: they're satisfying to us, like that it is satisfying for
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: there to for the end of Act two to be,
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: you know, the dark day of the soul and like
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: the dark night of the soul, and then for like
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: things to turn around and act three. Like that's like
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: we like knowing where the story is going.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: Obviously some things are more avant garde or break the rules,
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: and that's cool too, but they're like knowing like enemies
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: to lovers, like where I'm here.
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: For, I know I'm going to get a happy ending.
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: And I think that that's the best trope of a
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: romance book is it is not a romance book. If
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: these people do not end up together, it is something else.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: It can be something great, but it's not a romance.
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: And so as someone who is like very old over
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: all of the devastation and sadness that is the world
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: and wants to go to narrative to escape that, to
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: not just be hit over the head with like sadness
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: and desperation all the time, I think like knowing that,
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: like that's what you're getting in for with the romance
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: book is so great. I think maybe you know, harmful
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: tropes are like I think you know where like the
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: relationship dynamic is not actually healthy, right, So like any
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: sort of thing where someone is a captive or you know,
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: take an advantage of or you know, anything that glorifies
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: abuse in any way don't love that, you know. But
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: I think for the majority of what's going on in
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: this genre, it's more it's more just like wish fulfillment
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: really letting you explore really complex elements of human life
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: without it feeling like you're logging through something that is
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: just like purely dramatic or traumatic or sad. I mean,
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: that's kind of where I really am excited to be
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: in this genre is because I can like explore mental
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: health in this way. I don't have to like get
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: someone to buy into a book about about being unlovable
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: and anxiety. I get someone to buy into the idea
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: of like a fun rom com where a girl tries
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: to find a groom in time for original wedding date.
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: That I get to add that stuff, you know. And
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: my next one is all about OCD and grief and
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: like these you know, these subjects that are not inherently
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: what you would think about with the romance, but like
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: is what you're allowed to explore in that genre so
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: long as you're hitting the satisfying beats of two people
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: falling in love.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's so fantastic. Well, speaking of you've also written
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: a lot about breakups. Obviously, that's a big part of dating,
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: and as you mentioned this book, you do you bring
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: in elements of that, and you've written about how you know,
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: after that happened, you were worried people would be like, oh,
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: why should I go to her? Like you were saying
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: about the therapy or all of that. But you've also
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: written about the kind of the intersection of mental health
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: and the breakup. Can you talk about that a little bit?
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: So I think breakups are really devastating, even if you're
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: at your most mentally stable, but you know, if you
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: are someone that has real ups and downs in their
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: mental health, it can be very pretty destabilizing. And so
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: I think that it's important to honor and understand how
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: deeply painful a breakup is and to put in some
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: added support to yourself to get yourself through that situation.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: And I also think it's important to not engage certain
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: harmful thought patterns around it. So one of the most
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: harmful thought patterns I find is the what if thoughts
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: of like what if I had done this differently, what
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: if we had.
• 45:11
  Speaker 5: Met earlier, what if? What if? What if?
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: And it's trying to solve a problem that that already happened,
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: right it's like and it's trying to solve something that
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: you would never know the answer to, Like I will
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: never know if my fiance would have stayed if there
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: hadn't been a pandemic, Like I suspect probably, but I
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: don't know, And so my hunt to know is is
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: a useless quest that can really stir up rumination and
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: can really get us trapped in the past and make
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: it hard for us to move forward. So I really
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: like instead to encourage people to take a radical acceptance
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: point of view when it comes to a breakup, where
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: it is like, obviously, this is not what I wanted
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: to happen, but this is what happened, and since it
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: is what happened, what do.
• 46:02
  Speaker 5: I do now?
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: Rather than focusing on the past or feeling like it
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: means some great thing about your future, right, we tend
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: to catastrophize this person left, that means everyone will leave me.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: I'm heartbroken now, I will be heartbroken forever. Like really
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: trying to look at what is true, what is logical,
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: and where can we go from here rather than overly
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: predicting the future or staying in the past.
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: Yes, and Samantha and I love a good activity or
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: a good thought experiment, and you have a lot of
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: those in your books about reframing those sort of thoughts
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: and identifying the helpful ones and not helpful ones. I
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: wanted to ask you this and it could be your
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: answer to just no.
• 46:48
  Speaker 6: But I as a podcast that is in the intersectional
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: feminist space, sometimes it gives me pause that that relationship
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: podcasts are often gendered as feminine for women.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: Has that been your experience, Like we know rom coms are,
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: but like relationship podcasts are. So I was just curious
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: to getting thoughts about that or maybe you haven't seen that.
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: It's just me, you know, I think that they're you know,
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: writing especially my most recent nonfiction about I Do I
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: think about modern marriage. The book is very non gendered
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: and it is very inclusive at least really that was
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: a priority for me. But it was also important to
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: acknowledge that historically women have been more victims of harmful marriages,
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: that the patriarchal nature of marriage has often harmed women
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: to a high degree, And so it feels impossible to
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: also completely approach relationships as existing outside of the gender binary.
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: Because I think that the reality is the way that
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: our lives and society have been structured, is that women
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: often do bear the brunt of some unfairness and inequality,
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: and so I understand perhaps why women are drawn to
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: these conversations because it is hard to know how to
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: build an equitable relationship and how to build a safer relationship.
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: And so my goal is that, like we as we
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: build more and more of those and as people have
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: better models of relationships, that it won't be seen as
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: something that is such a gender topic. But I think
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: that there's still a lot of work to be done there.
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: But I love when I hear I gave my partner
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: your book, or my partner introduced me to this, and
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: you know, I think that you know, women and and
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: queer people just tend to be more cued into this stuff,
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: which is part of the bigger problem, right, But like
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: what an honor to get to to have such such
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: a such a wonderful audience.
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: And you know.
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: The goal is is for this just to spread even more,
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: especially as we're dealing with such a such an issue
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: with masculinity in this culture.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an interesting conversation in general, because
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: when you think about what's happening when you hear complaints
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: in a marriage. Oftentimes women see it first and try
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: to fix it on their own and by the time
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: the husbands and this is obviously very heteronormative, but like
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: by the time the husbands are like being told there's
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: a problem that is towards the end of like this
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: is unfixable, oftentimes.
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: Not well, maybe by the time they listen.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, and that's like all of those things are such.
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: I think often they're told and they're not taking it
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: seriously correct.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: I think what of that due is that that level
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: of like when it comes to keeping a family, they
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: really put it on women's shoulders to being like you're
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: you're the reason to either stays together or falls apart,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: which is such a that's a whole different topic.
• 50:13
  Speaker 5: So we'll have to have you on episodes.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: I'll have to have you back on that for that.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: But with all of that, I know you've talked to
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of people, and obviously a lot of people
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: talk to you about relationships and all the ways they
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: can look, especially as like we're talking about modern relationships
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: and how it's changing. Is there something you have heard
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: or learned from someone else that has changed your perspective
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: and has stuck with you.
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: This was years ago, but I worked with this woman
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: who's absolutely amazing, and she was going through a divorce
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: at the time, and she was she like, I wasn't
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: quite ready to hear it when she said it, but
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: she was like, he was such a you know, the
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: divorce was very painful. There was cheating, it was it
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: was like not good. But she was like, he was
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: a great person to raise my kids with. And I
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: think that that really changed my opinion about, like slowly
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: about about marriage and relationships that like, they don't have
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: to last forever for them to have still been the
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: right decision at the time, and that just because something
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: ultimately ends or shifts dramatically, like your marriage could have
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: been absolutely wonderful and important and absolutely the right person
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: for you for the amount of time that they were
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: the right person for you, rather than it being completely
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: negated just because it ended.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're and your your books, you interview professionals
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: and some of the some of the things I was reading,
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I'm gonna have to think about that.
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: I've never thought about it in that way before, which
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: is great. And that brings me to what I was
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: talking about. For introspection. You're really you talk a lot
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: about you know, think about, think about these things, ask
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: these questions of yourself. Am I Am I in the
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: good place to break up just asking those questions? Why
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: do you think that it's so important?
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: I think that we often take our cues from societal
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: norms or what has worked for people around us, when
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: really we have to be cued into what works for
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: us in our present context. So if we don't really
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: know what's going on with us, or what our capacities
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: are or our feelings are in that moment, then we
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: can sort of make decisions that are under the wrong
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: influence rather than being more aligned with our current self
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: and our overall values.
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, well, clearly you're just going to have to come
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: back because we have so many questions, so many other
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: topic ideas. But for now, where can the good listeners
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: find you? What projects do you have that you want
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: to shout out all of that?
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: Well, I would love for people to order my books
• 52:58
  Speaker 5: Save the Date.
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: It's definitely a romcom heavy on the com if that's
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: your kind of thing, hopefully, And then you can also
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: check out my substack Emotional Support Lady, where I have
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: a weekly post every Tuesday. That's just anything and everything
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: mental health related. So it's like a really lovely community
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: over there. I have a weekly podcast called Just between Us,
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: and if you're interested in my work as a relationship coach,
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: you can visit alisanaskin dot com and all the other
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: stuff there too.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: Awesome. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you so much
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: for joining us.
• 53:33
  Speaker 5: Oh this was wonderful.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: Thank you, And you can also contact us if you
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: would like. You can email us at Hello at Stuffmannever
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: Told You dot com. You can find us on blue
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: Sky at momstaff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: Stuffman Ever Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: a tea public store, and we have a book you
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always too,
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: our super producer Christina are executed for and our Contrbutter Joey.
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff One
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: Never Told You's ppdiction of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: from my Heart Radio, you can check out your iHeartRadio app,
• 54:08
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