Latest / The Don't Pastor Alone Podcast / Pastoral Wellness
Transcript
- Bob Bumgarner: Welcome to the Don't Pastor Alone podcast, where we connect pastors and churches with trusted people and practical resources so they don't pastor alone. I'm Bob Bumgarner, and I'm here in the ministry garage with Jim Bo Stewart. JImBo Stewart: Man, I'm excited to be here and do another episode with you today, Bob. Bob Bumgarner: What are we gonna talk about today, Jim Bo? JImBo Stewart: Today we're gonna talk about one of the most neglected priorities in ministry, pastoral wellness. Bob what is pa- we're talking about this 'cause it's one of the four ways primary ways that First Coast Churches serves pastors and churches. So what, when you say that, and you're telling a pastor that's new to the association how we serve them, when you say pastoral wellness, what do you mean? Bob Bumgarner: When we say pastoral wellness, what we're asking and hoping to help a pastor do is faithfully steward their whole life- Mm ... like body, mind, soul, relationships, calling, for two reasons. So he can serve faithfully and finish well. If you were to say it in kind of a sticky way, you could say whole person stewardship for long-term faithfulness. JImBo Stewart: What do you think- Why do you think this is such an important thing? Out of out of all the things that you could select as four things that the association focuses on, why is this one of those four? Bob Bumgarner: Because leadership matters, and the ability to influence is based on your credibility, your competence, your the chemistry you have with people. So pastoral wellness is more than just avoiding burnout. It's not just self-indulgence. It's, it's, it, or making ministry comfortable. It's recognizing that God has entrusted the pastor with a body, with a mind, with a soul, with a family, the, with relationships, with calling, and all of those things need to be stewarded, shepherded. JImBo Stewart: I, I've heard you quote somebody else before saying, "The greatest gift you can give your church is a healthy you." The gift Bob Bumgarner: of a healthy self. JImBo Stewart: Gift, gift of a healthy self, yeah. Bob Bumgarner: So the, so Jim Chavis, my boss and mentor when I first started into network work, that was his statement, and his contention was, and I think he's right, is that self-sabotage happens- when we don't know what happens to the room when we walk into it. JImBo Stewart: Oof. Bob Bumgarner: And so, we've gotta be able to we gotta know what that is, and we, a- and the way to focus on that most consistently is to not wear a mask, not to be fake. Be who you are. That's actually the greatest gift because I mean, we all So we have several prominent pastors in our city. We have Scott Yerka and Joby Martin and Chris Bonds, and pastors of larger churches. Uh, uh, here's the thing God's already got one of those here. We don't need another one. Mm-hmm. We need you to be who you are as a pastor so you can do what God has called you to do as a pastor. And a healthy self can receive feedback, can realize that you need to learn. I was talking to a pastor, uh, just the other day about a difficult season of ministry, and I asked him what he had learned through that difficult season of ministry. And, uh, what was, what was interesting to me about it is it hasn't turned into learning yet. Mm-hmm. Because there's some woundedness that he's going through. And so my prayer for him is that that woundedness will turn into a soft heart to be able to learn what God was trying to say. Because here's what I found. If Bob doesn't lead from a healthy self, God's gonna keep beating on that rock- until I learn what I'm supposed to learn. JImBo Stewart: Do you, from your perspective, you spent, uh, a decent amount of your ministry career helping pastors, serving- Yeah ... pastors. From your perspective, d- are pastors good at pastoral wellness naturally? Or are they more, do they lean more towards neglecting themselves? Bob Bumgarner: I think there's a correction happening that I'm seeing in I'm not 40, but guys that are 35 and younger, that there's an awareness of it and even some experimentation around trying to do it to, to t- have a holistic look at life. I think guys in my generation- Were sort of taught to gut it out. We were taught that to give a, to give everything we can to ministry. You know, we've you've probably, you may have heard somebody say "My mistress was ministry." You know? The... I, I think that's a, uh, that... I don't hear younger people saying that. Guys in my generation said it, meaning I didn't have an affair with another woman, what I had was an affair with my job, because that's where I got my significance, my satisfaction. Mm. I knew how to be good at that, and maybe I didn't know how to be good at some other areas. I really do think that it is a... I, I think there's a corrective happening, but I think that it was neglected for a long time. JImBo Stewart: What do you think pastors end up neglecting themselves? Bob Bumgarner: I think that, that pastors have a genuine desire to serve other people, and there is a har- there's actually a dopamine rush or something that happens whenever you get to do your calling. And a lot of our pastors maybe aren't good at mobilizing other people- ... and developing other people, so what happens is the limit becomes what they can do personally. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: And, um, because they don't know how to g- they don't know how to give it away. Here's the thing. I don't think it comes from an evil spot. I think it comes from a, uh, a Ignorance is the wrong word, but a, but a lack of understanding. I think it comes from an a, a place where they don't understand the fact that they're actually limiting their church- JImBo Stewart: Yeah ... Bob Bumgarner: by not doing it and, and getting help and giving stuff away. And I, I don't think that they realize how rich life can be- JImBo Stewart: Hmm Bob Bumgarner: when you operate from a, a fully restored soul. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. I think about, we talk often about Ephesians 4:11-16 and this idea of it's, it's the job of the leaders of the church to equip the saints to do the work of ministry, not to get the work of ministry done, not to get the processes built, the programs running, the, the whatever going. And but there's a real temptation, uh, and maybe it's because we feel like we're being evaluated based off of the quality of the process or the program or whatever it is. And so the, th- there's greater accountability it feels like there. So we wanna make sure we look good on that, rather than realizing what Ephesians 4:11 and 12 tell us is the actual job assignment is equipping the saints. And so, we end up neglecting the, I think the development piece because, let's just be honest, it's easier to just do it yourself. A lot of times it is. A lot of times. It's just easier, and I could probably do it higher quality- Yeah ... than that person that God's called me to develop can. And it's a real temptation- Bob Bumgarner: Yeah JImBo Stewart: to lean into that. Bob Bumgarner: And I think the short-term view of things that that, you know... So how do we have 10% more people next year? How do we you know, how do we go from 60 to 100? Because then we can do better programming 'cause we'll have more money and those kind of things. Those are not bad aspirations. They just, if we're not careful, can cause us to make bad short-term choices- ... that cause l- unhealthy long-term effects. You know, one of my favorite verses about this is 1 Salo- 1 Thessalonians 5, 23. It says this: "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit , soul, and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ." Hmm. So this is not just you know, trying to be soft and and do things that are not called for in scripture. No, it's called for in scripture. The I, I really do think it is, are we playing the, the long game or the short game? Do we really care about our, Our family. Do we really care what our wife thinks? And I'll share, uh, at the end of this podcast some recent things that I've had to wade through- ... because I was being insensitive. Yeah ... and, and my w- and, and God was using Tina's voice in the f- in the form- Hmm ... of the Holy Spirit to make me aware- Hmm ... of some things. JImBo Stewart: Uh, I, I've heard Henry Blackaby was asked what does the Holy Spirit's voice sounds like?" And he said, "A lot like my wife's voice." Yeah. It sounds very similar. Uh, what are some of the warning lights on a dashboard that could tell somebody that maybe they've neglected to the point that it, they're not healthy? Bob Bumgarner: Well, I'm gonna give you some of my- JImBo Stewart: Or at least headed that direction. Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you some of mine, but I really do think you have to I think you have to know yourself. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: But for me, it's constant fatigue. It- so that I don't feel rested after, even after I've rested. Cynicism, like I'm pretty much not a cynic, but when cynicism- Hmm ... or, uh- JImBo Stewart: yep Bob Bumgarner: is a, it becomes normal for me, then I'm in a, then I'm in a bad spot. Short-tempered. I, I, I'm, I'm pretty patient most of the time, but when I've got kind of a short fuse. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: Loss of joy. When I prefer not to be with people. Like, those are all signs for me personally. What are your signs? What are some things that you, that, that would be a tell for you? JImBo Stewart: I think similar. I think one of mine is when I get so I get so tunnel vision focused on task that I get frustrated when I am interrupted by relationships Um, that's one of mine, that like I'll, I'll see it come up in me of like I wanna snap and be like, "Hey, I'm trying to get some stuff done here." Yeah. Fortunately, over the years I've learned to keep that primarily internal and, and not vocalize it, uh, but sometimes my face still can- Yeah ... still can convey it even if my words don't. And, um, I- for me, that's just become like a, a light on the dashboard of like, uh, okay, we're, something's not right. We're not at a, a good place. Um, but I would agree the whole like not wanting to be around people the cynicism, seeing those things prayer becoming mechanical like doing your quiet time just 'cause like, you know- Yeah ... you gotta do it, or finding excuses to not do it and justifying not slowing down and spending time. And then I think one of the other ones is when I start to feel overwhelmed with pressure as if it's all up to me- ... and I'm now in charge of the outcome and not just the responsibilities that I've been given. Bob Bumgarner: Speaking of outcomes, I was with, um, my... Uh, this was happened several years ago. My daughter was on staff and I was in a meeting, uh, with the staff, and she happened to be in the meeting. And, uh, she, uh, the pastor said, "Hey, I've gotta go, but Bob's gonna finish this meeting, and here's what we need to get done." And, uh, which that was really kinda the first I heard about that. I mean- it, it, it was, it was legit. He had to go somewhere. And so I'm in the meeting and- JImBo Stewart: But you hadn't pre-gamed that you were gonna Bob Bumgarner: be- No, we hadn't pre-gamed it. It was- Yeah ... something that came up. And so, my daughter and I were riding, we just happened that night to be riding home together, so I said, "Hey, how do you think that meeting went?" And she said "Well, were you mad?" And I said, "No." And, um, I said, this is what I said, "No," and she said, "Well, you shoulda told your face." And she had some cute ways to describe what I- ... what my face does when I am concentrating. But the thing that was interesting to me about that was I was in my mid-50s when she said that. And come to find out that when I am a little frustrated or maybe a little cynical or feel caught off guard, my face sends a message that it may not be in my heart. And, uh, it would've been nice to know that at 35. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: Y- but you gotta have, you gotta ask for feedback, right? Yep. So my point is just building on what you said, I do think we have to ask for some feedback. Like, "Hey, JImBo Stewart: when- Bob Bumgarner: Mm ... when am I the least fun to work with?" JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: You know, "When do you see me not on my game?" I think is helpful exercise. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. I think, uh, I've heard a, a friend of mine give the analogy of like- If you ever played tennis or maybe more people would today play pickleball and you're, and it's a good volley back and forth, and all of a sudden you find yourself having to, like, really reach outside of, and, and you gotta just, like, slam it you're not able to watch and see because of how you're having to do that, what it's like to be on the receiving- Bob Bumgarner: Yeah JImBo Stewart: end of that. Yeah, sure. And a lot of times in our lives when we're overstretched, we don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of us- Yeah ... uh, in that moment of leadership. So let's make this practical. What are some areas that every pastor should really be paying attention to? And what are some of the dimensions or aspects of pastoral wellness that a guy should be focused on? Bob Bumgarner: There's five or six that I think that come to mind. Quick- let's just go through them real quick. There's the spiritual dimension you know, your walk with Jesus apart from sermon preparation. And I wanna be careful when I say that because God has done so many amazing things in my life through sermon preparation. So I don't know how you segment that out but what I would say is that a, an ongoing rhythmic relationship with Jesus where the word prayer church attendance all those kind of things are a part of God feeding your soul. And, uh, and ac- you know, accountability, people that, that you know, people that you can ask questions to. But the spiritual, there's the spiritual dynamic. Then there's the physical. And the, the interesting thing about the physical is the physical will, will eventually tell you that you're skipping it. Mm-hmm. Uh, but it's things like sleep. How much sleep do you need? And, uh, and you know, you need seven or eight hours of sleep. Most people need that amount of, you know, for your body to recover, those kind of things. Exercise. What's the right kind of exercise for you? At the, motion motion is lotion. You know, so at the very, get 10,000 steps in a day. Just do something. Nutrition. I'm not saying don't eat sweets, what I'm saying is make sure you're eating protein and fiber and, and those kind of things. So I would say that the thing to m- to monitor in the physical component of this is your, your energy. What does y- what does that feel like? Do you feel like ... Paying attention to, a- and we'll talk about this in another podcast but when are you good? Like, when are you at your brightest? When are you at your- Mm-hmm ... sharpest? And then there's, there's spiritual, physical, emotional. So self-awareness processing grief or anger, healthy friendships, all of those kind of things that, we call these soft skills. And I hate that we call them soft skills because it's almost like we dismiss them. And, uh, I, I don't know who said this, but basically what they, what they said is this that your ability to get a job is probably gonna be based on your IQ. JImBo Stewart: Mm. Bob Bumgarner: But your ability s- to succeed in whatever your field of endeavor is, to get a promotion or to do well is based on EQ. JImBo Stewart: Mm. Bob Bumgarner: You know, emotional quotient. Mm-hmm. Your ability to relate emotionally with people. And that is that is so true. And when you think about i- when you think about the accumulation of ... So let's pretend that you're not spiritually okay. And you're not physically okay, and you're not emotionally okay. So that means that s- that three out of the six things that kinda keep you anchored- JImBo Stewart: Yeah are Bob Bumgarner: kilter. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: That's, that is not gonna play well for ver- for very long. JImBo Stewart: No. Bob Bumgarner: One of the things that we do at here is we call, we have an, what we call our enrich pathway, which is tasked, and when I say here, I mean First Coast Churches is tasked with helping pastors be healthy in these six areas. And the way that we say it is soul care, marriage, and ministry competency. Those are kind of the three categories of this. So just keeping those three categories, I go to my fourth area here. It's relational. How's your marriage? How's your how's your family? A- and, and here's the thing you gotta, if you're a man and you're listening to this, you gotta gird your loins when you ask this question. But you need to ask your spouse at some point every little bit, "What's it like to be married to me right now?" Um, I've actually asked my, I haven't done it for my adult kids 'cause they're not in the house anymore, but I did do it for my high school kids. You know, "What's it like to be parented by me right now?" JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: And, uh, you know, and if you ask it enough, they'll be kind, but they'll help you. JImBo Stewart: Mm-hmm. Bob Bumgarner: They'll help you be, they'll help you be better. It was Dallas Willard who said this, uh, not to me, but he said it in a conference I was in. He said, "The, the idea is not to ask, what would Jesus do in my marriage? The question to ask is, if Jesus was married to my wife, how would he treat her?" JImBo Stewart: Mm. Bob Bumgarner: If Jesus was parenting my kids, how would he parent?" And that, just that little paradigm shift, that's actually, that really helps me- JImBo Stewart: Yeah ... Bob Bumgarner: to stay anchored in this relational component. And then I think that part of whole, wholeness is the mental- Part of our work. And, um, you know, so in other words, how do you stay sharp? How do you stay on your game? How are you, how do you learn best given your particular rhythms? Maybe you can't sit down and read a whole book, but you can ... You got 30 minutes drive time, so maybe you'll listen to a book or maybe you get executive summaries. If you're a First Coast Churches member, we have over 300 executive summaries- JImBo Stewart: Mm-hmm ... Bob Bumgarner: that you can have access to, and we'll put the QR code in the, in the show notes. Uh, so there's the mental, the in- the, the intellectual part of this. And then the missional part living from calling instead of pressure. A- and quite honestly I feel like the majority of pastors I get to interact with, they're like Popeye. You know how Popeye had- ... the little biceps but a big forearm? JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: So Popeye's forearms are the missional component. Like I don't know any of our pastors that are depleted in all six of these areas. Right. But I do think there are some that have some big biceps and thighs that could use some ankle strengthening and, and those kind of things. Yeah. Well, I, I know that was ... I, I talked a lot during that. What would you add to anything that I might have said? JImBo Stewart: Yeah, I think those, those categories of- um that are super important to think through I think you've gotta build Uh, what are your checks? What are you, how are you not just aware that those things exist, right? Like- ... ah, when I drive my car, I, I'm not aware of, at the moment, a transmission and pistons and- Bob Bumgarner: That's good ... JImBo Stewart: and, you know, I just wanna make sure the oil gets changed, and- Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. You step on the gas, you want to go ... JImBo Stewart: and when I step on the gas, I want it to go. And then when it starts to, it's, it's not till something starts to not work well- Yeah ... that then I started thinking like, "Oh, what of all the things underneath that hood could that be?" And I don't think about it till then. And I think far too often in, in our l- ministry lives, that's what we do, is w- we wait till... And even like, uh, you know, I drive a 1999 Forerunner that has a check engine light for, uh, the, like, a catalytic converter. I'm not gonna c- I'm not gonna fix that. Yeah. You know, I'm not gonna pay the money to fix that on that old Forerunner, and I can get away with that. But there, if the light's, if your check engine light in your life is going off on three of those six, you can't, there's a point where you can't ignore it. And when we wait till we can't ignore it, then we end up in, in trouble. And so I think identifying those and figuring out what are your rhythms to be able to identify and evaluate those. But as, as we think about rhythms, w- when you, when we step outside of just pastors and you look at the life of Jesus, who ultimately we're supposed to be emulating what rhythms stand out to you in the life of Jesus that pastors should consider as they look at their own rhythms? Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. I think, I think there's this is funny. There's a lot of good stuff in the Bible after- JImBo Stewart: Yeah ... there- There is. Bob Bumgarner: I, I think solitude. I think you see Jesus in solitude. JImBo Stewart: Just real fast, give me the difference between solitude and isolation. Bob Bumgarner: So- solitude has purpose. Yeah. Isolation is I'm withdrawing to get away from something. Solitude is I'm withdrawing so that I can hear something, so that I can receive something. Mm-hmm. Solitude is me recalibrating pride, fear, anger toward kingdom values. It's, it's me, it's me Galatians 5:22 JImBo Stewart: and 23. Bob Bumgarner: It, yeah, it's it's really reconnecting with the Father. It's saying what you probably believe, but it's actually you're actually quietening your heart. It I, I think that's the... I first became aware of solitude, thank you for the question, by the way- Yeah ... it's a great question, through the Lead Like Jesus organization and Ken Blanchard and some of the things he did in Lead Like Jesus. And I did not know how powerful it was until I practiced it. And where you just sit. The, the way that we did it was we'd say, "Okay, sit in a chair." With your palms up and think of everything in your hands that you're carrying that's a weight right now And give people time to put the stuff in there JImBo Stewart: Yeah Bob Bumgarner: And then we said, "Reach forward, turn your hands over, and let it all fall out" And then turn, n- then when it's all out, turn your hands back over and receive from the Lord what he wants to give you in solitude JImBo Stewart: Yeah Bob Bumgarner: And what was interesting to me, that's all we said And it was always amazing in the debrief. When we came back, I said, "What did you receive?" I- it was it was far beyond, the richness of it was far beyond anything that... It was very personal. It, uh, it was often followed by tears. And the, uh, the whole purpose was to acknowledge that we are his children before we're his employees. JImBo Stewart: Mm-hmm. Bob Bumgarner: You know, how do you crawl up in Father's lap and be a son? JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: That's what solitude is. Mm. That's what solitude is. JImBo Stewart: What are some other rhythms you see in Jesus' life that we should consider? Bob Bumgarner: Uh, I think prayer. Uh, when you think about before he chose the 12 he spent the night, the evening in prayer. I think he used meals. You know, there were times he was right in a preaching moment, and he said, "Hey, let's row to the other side- ... you know, the other side of the lake. I think I think living on mission. I must go through Samaria. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: You must go through Callahan sometimes. Yeah. You must go through, uh, you know, St. Johns County sometimes because there's something that needs to be done. Like this happened, this happened two days ago. It's very personal. I was leaving work. My dad is in a nursing assisted living not far from here, and, uh, it was... I was tired. I, I just wanted, I wanted to go home. So I called my wife and I said, "Hey, I th- I don't think I'm gonna stop by to see Dad today." And she said, she says, "Do, do what everything's right." And she wasn't trying- Mm ... to say, but that just- JImBo Stewart: Yeah ... Bob Bumgarner: I just knew it was right for me to go see Dad. Yeah. So I went to see Dad. JImBo Stewart: Very nice way. Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. Pulled up, sat down beside him, and, uh, he was watching a TV show where s- the scene in the movie, the show said, um, this particular lawyer on the show he was watching said, "Do you ever feel like a failure?" He went with it and was like the one off on feeling like a failure. My dad, we haven't talked seriously in three months. It's just been- Mm ... sort of. He says, "Do you ever feel like that?" And I said, "Well, Dad, no, not really." I said, "I feel discouraged sometimes," but I said, "I don't feel like a failure." And I went through why, and I stood up and I got down face level with my dad. And I said, "I want you to look in my eyes. You are not a failure." I said, "Look at all these awards on the wall that we have here." A- and I said, "And don't forget that Kevin and me are, my brother and I, like our families are flourishing because of the generational stuff that you broke- ... the generational cycles that you interrupted. And I have six grandkids- ... that are on the road to Jesus because of that." So my point is my, my point in it is, you never know in the, "I must go through Samaria," you never know the moment- JImBo Stewart: Yeah ... Bob Bumgarner: that the Lord's gonna open up for you. JImBo Stewart: That's good. Bob Bumgarner: Because I have hung out with Dad for two years here, and that's the first time- Wow that he was in a vulnerable moment like that. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. And you, I mean, you were, had the real temptation to not- Yeah ... to not go that day. But you must go. Bob Bumgarner: And, and, and who knows- And- ... if that, if, if, like that movie at that moment- ... said something that pro- anyway. JImBo Stewart: The Lord lines it all up. Yeah. All right, so we've talked about what a check engine light could look like, but what would What's the opposite of the check engine light? Like, what are, what are the, what are the signs you see in a pastor that you go, "That guy's in a good place"? Bob Bumgarner: They laugh. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: They have friends. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: They keep learning. They don't have to do it all. They know their limits. They say no. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: They love their families, and their families want to be around him. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: When I see families that want to be with Dad- Mm ... I know that that pastors do. They enjoy Jesus. They en- they don't just endure hard seasons, they're resilient. They, they have bounce. They can bounce back. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. How about burnout? Let's talk about it for just a second. Can you prevent burnout from happening, or is that just part of ministry? Bob Bumgarner: I think burnout has degrees. I think there's burnout where you need a sabbatical. I think there's burnout when you need tomorrow off. I think there's burnout where you need to pray a prayer of confession. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: And so here's the thing. I don't know that that I don't know that I like the question about burnout. What I do like is the fact that God has given us a way to behave that will give us the best life possible, and that is Sabbathing and being healthy in, in our soul, uh, so we don't gain the world and lose our soul. So sometimes you need to have counseling. Sometimes you need medical care. Oftentimes you need community and rest. Sometimes you need to be ... So I, I guess here's what I would say. If you use pastoral wellness to recalibrate to the metrics that God honors, then I do think it can prevent burnout. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: It is not going to prevent burnout if you keep chasing things that don't give life. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah, I'll have to say you, uh, you only burn out when you're using your own fuel. Bob Bumgarner: That's a good word. That's a great word. JImBo Stewart: Um, but you can't burn out if you're being fueled by the Lord and you're doing just what He's asked you to do. It's when we take on- Beyond what we've been given for whatever reason inside of us that we feel like we need to. Bob Bumgarner: Now generationally I know people in my generation say, "I'm gonna burn out for Jesus." JImBo Stewart: Mm. Bob Bumgarner: Like f- they meant that in a good way, but that's a really silly statement. Yeah. It, y- it's not at all scriptural. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. If you could coach, uh, every young pastor on as he's entering into ministry, early in ministry to- on taking care of himself, what would you tell him? Bob Bumgarner: Don't read the Bible for information. Read it to fall in love with the Savior. J- uh, j- uh, cherish, cherish that your wife said "yes" at some time in the past and you guys are married. And what are you doing to make that a, a, a good thing? Uh, so just take the things that, the very basic things that God has given you and honor them. Value them. S- as somebody who is closer to retirement than you, I, I would just say to you, it's bizarre how fast life goes, and it goes faster the further you get, that you- Yeah ... get into it. Learn to appreciate the, the grace that God gives by the people and experiences he's given you. JImBo Stewart: Let's do some rapid-fire questions before we close out. Uh, what's one habit every pastor should develop? Bob Bumgarner: Solitude. JImBo Stewart: What's your, what's your, the best book on wellness? Bob Bumgarner: I would read Pete Scazzero's Emotionally, the Emotionally Healthy Leader. JImBo Stewart: Mm. Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. JImBo Stewart: What's your favorite weekly rhythm? Bob Bumgarner: My favorite weekly rhythm is praying with my wife. JImBo Stewart: Most underrated leadership habit? Asking what does mature love require in this moment? One thing pastors should stop doing? Bob Bumgarner: Comparing. Own, own your unique situation and be grateful for it. JImBo Stewart: That's good. What's one thing that refreshes your soul as Bob Bumgarner? Bob Bumgarner: At the macro level, I love to go hunting. Yeah. Uh, I mean, I love to get out in the woods. Yeah. Even if I don't get anything, I love- JImBo Stewart: Yeah ... Bob Bumgarner: I just love being out there. The and then this is the grandpa. I love being with my, with my grandkids with- Yeah ... no agenda. Yeah. Those two things are very JImBo Stewart: life-giving to me. All right, close this out. If pastor's listening today and realizes he is running on empty, check engine light, you know, the check engine light can come on, and then every once in a while check engine light can actually flash- Right like if something's really bad. Check engine light's flashing, he's running on empty. What's the first step? Bob Bumgarner: Tell someone. JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Bob Bumgarner: Talk to somebody unfettered about it. Tell them what you're feeling. Don't evaluate it. Don't explain it. Just tell them how you're feeling. And then look at those six different areas that we talked about earlier, and if it's physical, talk to a doctor. If it's mental or emotional, talk to a counselor. If you're in First Coast churches, come and talk to one of us, and if you need a counselor, we will actually help you get connected and take care of your first three- JImBo Stewart: We can probably help you with five of those six. The physical one you need, like, an actual- Bob Bumgarner: Yeah JImBo Stewart: physician. Yeah. But- But the rest of Bob Bumgarner: it, that's a great point. JImBo Stewart: Yeah, the other five we could help. Bob Bumgarner: We can help with that, absolutely. JImBo Stewart: All right. Bob Bumgarner: Listen I hope this has been helpful to you. If you don't disregard the health of your soul, you want to enjoy Jesus and flourish in a John 10:10 way like he wants for you, it requires that you take care of your soul. Thanks for listening.