Latest / Identity at the Center / #427 - Identiverse 2026 Preview with Heather Flanagan and Andi Hindle

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#427 - Identiverse 2026 Preview with Heather Flanagan and Andi Hindle · Identity at the Center

• 0:05
  This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity at the
• 0:11
  Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
• 0:12
  Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
• 0:15
  Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm too good.
• 0:17
  So to prove what you often tell people, Jim's going to hit me
• 0:22
  with something. I have no idea what it's going
• 0:24
  to be. I'm going to ask you a very
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  simple question. What year did the solar winds
• 0:30
  breach happen? Solar winds, which one?
• 0:35
  I don't know. I feel like it, it, it feels
• 0:38
  like yesterday, but you're going to probably tell me something.
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  I was like, oh, that was like 4 years ago or five years ago.
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  2020 yeah, that was so I was working on with my boss.
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  So our day jobs, right? We work for RSM, we do
• 0:50
  consulting and our digital identity as part of the risk
• 0:56
  consulting practice, right? And so we're working on a risk
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  consulting deck. And he asked me, hi, what,
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  what's 1 of the big breaches that stands out from a risk
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  consulting standpoint in cyber? I said, well, it has to be
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  SolarWinds, right? And I started doing a Google
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  search. I couldn't remember even the
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  name SolarWinds, right? I'm like, it's that big 1.
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  And I started looking at 2023. What was the big breaches 2024?
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  And I'm like, you know, I, I, I finally got there by keyword
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  jamming. And eventually it was like
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  realized it was 2020. I remember we had Paul Volosian
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  come on in the time. This is the very beginning of
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  the pandemic, right? And we decided like, hey, we
• 1:40
  need to put out an emergency episode.
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  This humongous freeze just happened.
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  And Paul was like, Hey, I can talk about it on a Sunday.
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  So I went on, I think I did this.
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  That was probably my first solo episode was with Paul and on
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  that topic. So just came to mind because I
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  was also thinking about like, Hey, we've got an identifiers
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  coming up. That's in Las Vegas, right?
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  That was the big scatter spriter breach, which to go back and
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  check the date that was 2023. That was obviously more recent,
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  more in kind of the the recent episode log.
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  So if you go back, we had a couple episodes dedicated to
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  Scatters Fighter over time, but I just thought it was
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  interesting. It's like some of these
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  breaches, they are the biggest deal ever.
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  As we're in this news cycle now where things become the biggest
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  deal ever and then something else becomes the biggest deal.
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  You move on and eventually you forget when the last thing
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  happened. Well, we're desensitized because
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  it happens so often. It's like, OK, you know, what
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  are we going to do about it this time?
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  Some are bigger than others, obviously.
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  But I appreciate you living up to your Debbie Downer of hey,
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  let's start off the let's start off an episode with, hey, let's
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  talk massive breaches and all the things that can go wrong and
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  things like that. So you're definitely, you know,
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  you hit a home run on that one. Hey, wait till the lighter note.
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  I got some really good stuff planned for that.
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  Well, remember, it's a lighter note.
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  It's supposed to be fun, you know, Airy, carefree.
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  Hey what I found is when I am airy and carefree then you
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  become Debbie downer so the the universe has to balance itself
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  out but. As Thanos once said, balance in
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  all things, right? So.
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  Yeah. Again, you have to educate me on
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  who that even is. But you know, coming up, we've
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  got day Jenna verse conference. We're going to talk about it
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  today. We've got a discount code still
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  for that. I I kind of feel nostalgic.
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  This is the last episode where we're going to talk about the
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  Identiverse conference and our discount code.
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  Then we'll shift into kind of the fall conferences.
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  But I'm excited about it. Denna verse.
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  We're going to have a booth, we're going to do our game show.
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  We've got a bunch of other things.
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  We're going to record a bunch of episodes.
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  What else do we have? What are your thoughts?
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  I mean, I think you hit kind of everything that that we've got
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  going on. So yeah, this is going to go
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  live a week before the actual conference.
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  So if you haven't registered already, here's 30% off for you
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  if you use the code IDV 2 six dash, IDAC 30 and the percentage
• 4:18
  sign, it's on our website, idacpodcast.com.
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  So you don't have to kind of jot it down.
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  But yeah, time's time's ticking. I'm going to guess the Mandalay
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  is probably sold out or very high from a rate perspective,
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  but hopefully we'll see a lot of familiar faces there for the
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  conference itself. And you know, this is also
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  extended to all of our friends at ID Pro for sure.
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  So we also have kind of a recent discount that we're finally able
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  to get in place with the help of ID Pro.
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  If you go to idpro.org/IDAC, all new members get $25 off of their
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  first year, which is very cool. So people can check that out.
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  Jim, I don't know if you know that I did this, but in an
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  episode that we aired, I guess at this point a couple weeks
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  ago, I used AI to insert the IDAC discount information
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  because when we were recorded with Elizabeth, we didn't have
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  it kind of worked out and finalized at that point.
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  So we weren't quite sure what to put there.
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  But I actually used AI to animate my headshot and the
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  voice of AI, Jeff, to, you know, say, OK, well, if you're going
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  to hear it, it's here it is. And then it kind of cuts to it.
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  I'm guessing you have not seen that yet.
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  I didn't know that's freaking cool though.
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  Well, as we were talking about before we hit record, I have
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  shifted my, I'm trying to shift my thinking and my speaking to
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  saying AI good or bad or if it's this good or this bad and just
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  say capable because it is certainly becoming much more
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  capable all the time. And I'm sure that's going to be
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  a big topic that we talked about Identiverse.
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  But why don't we go ahead and get to our guests, 2 of the
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  finest in the IM industry. They've been on multiple times,
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  a total of 13 between the two of them.
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  We've got Heather Flanagan, she's the content chair, and
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  Andy Hindle, who is the conference chair, and we're
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  going to find out what that means.
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  They're both part of the team that's helping put together the
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  Identity Identity Verse Conference itself.
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  But welcome to the show, Heather and Andy.
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  Hello again. Greetings, it's a pleasure to be
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  here as always. And Heather, I notice your cat
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  sitting behind you. We have some some supervision
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  this time. We'll see how that goes.
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  Yes, Charlie, I've already exhausted him.
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  Well, Chaucer is, is free to, you know, pipe in an A point.
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  She's going to be the fact checker maybe for you as you're
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  kind of talking. But let's start with the roles
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  that you guys are playing at the conference.
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  You guys have done this before as well, but for people who
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  aren't familiar and, and Heather, I want to kind of start
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  with you. What is the difference?
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  You know, explain your role as a content chair.
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  And then Andy, you go next and talk about, OK, what how's that
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  differ from a conference chair? So for content share, it
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  basically means that I'm responsible for the results from
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  the CFP in organizing the content committee and making
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  sure that things are reviewed and making sure that we have a
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  whole lot of stuff in our back pocket as it were.
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  Because what we find is, you know that we get hundreds and
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  hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of proposals, which is
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  great. But then sometimes people will
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  be like, oh, sorry, we didn't remember what days the
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  conference were, so we have to pull out or, OK, but we're only
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  going to speak if you pay US money.
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  And so they pull out. And so there's this this churn
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  that happens over the course of the few months after you
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  actually start picking things. This year was a little bit more
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  character building than expected because we had to the the woman
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  who was responsible for she was going to be handling the content
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  and the process and all of that stuff.
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  Her name was Chris Tanaka, and she unexpectedly passed away at
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  the very end of 2025, at which point we were kind of Plan B,
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  except they didn't know they even needed a Plan B.
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  So we just sort of dove on it and pick things up from there to
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  make sure that everything continued to go and the
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  conference actually happened on time.
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  But that's that's my focus is is the content.
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  However, there's so much more that happens, and that's Andy's
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  job. Yeah, it's unfortunately.
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  About Chris, just because we met her for the first time in, in I
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  think it was DC last year. And, you know, one of our first
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  times that we did kind of the game show in that sort of
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  smaller format for, for that conference.
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  And she was such a pleasure to work with.
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  And yeah, sorry to have to, you know, hear that news over the
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  the break. But anyway, Andy, tell us about
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  being a conference chair. Yeah.
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  So, so what's interesting about this is if you go back far
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  enough, and I've been around doing this for a little while
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  now, this is actually going to be my 12th year, if I've added
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  the years up correctly, of being roughly in this role.
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  But when I first took it on, Andre Durand, who obviously
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  founded Identiverse Wayback, was in the role of conference chair.
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  And so I took on specifically the content and then slowly
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  moved in and effectively looked after both of them.
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  The the role of conference chair is a guess about the overall
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  direction of the conference. So I'm thinking about how does
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  everything tie together thematically?
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  What are the big topics that we need to try and touch on?
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  How do we make sure that we have stitched together at least a
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  reasonable story through the mainstage through the week?
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  And I'm hedging a little bit on that because we don't always
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  know exactly what's going to be said on the mainstage until
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  sometimes just a few weeks out. Some of it's locked in, some of
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  it, you know, changes as we get a little closer.
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  And so there's a certain amount of real time work that goes into
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  that as well to try and, and kind of tell the story through
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  the week. And some of that is about
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  literally telling the story through the week so that you
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  have some consistency as you go through some some sense of
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  progression from A to B. But we're also thinking about
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  where might we want to go next year, right?
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  And so, you know, it's impossible to predict exactly
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  what that's going to look like. But at least directionally,
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  we're already starting to have some conversations and have some
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  thoughts around, OK, here are some directions we might want to
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  lean into for next year. Let's maybe test some of those
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  out in real time, see how people respond to them or react to
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  them. And all of that goes into
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  helping inform getting us set up for the call for presentations
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  for the 27 conference, which of course will open, you know that
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  the CFP for 27 will open in October, which means that we're
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  all ready. We need to start thinking about
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  what are the things we're going to want to directionally talk
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  about by then. So that's, that's the role of
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  the conference chair really is is kind of the the broad
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  picture, but but it's impossible to do that without this really
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  strong kind of, you know, content from the CFP sort of
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  holding everything together underneath.
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  And so that's why these two things fit together so well.
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  So let's talk a little bit about that theme for this year.
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  Can I guess that there's going to be some sort of AI as part of
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  this, just because it seems like it's taken over sort of the the
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  mindshare for so many people. But maybe I can Mandy, you know,
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  start with you. Let's let's talk about that
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  theme. And then, Heather, if you've got
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  anything you want to get on, feel free.
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  Yeah, So, you know, themes for conferences are always tricky
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  because on the one hand, you do want to give people some
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  structure, some, some context in which to kind of think about the
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  week. By the same token, if you focus
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  on one thing, then everyone just wants to talk about that one
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  thing, right. Again, because it informs the,
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  the, the CIP, the golf presentations.
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  The last thing you want to do is to just end up with, you know,
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  400 proposals about AI and and nothing else.
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  So we actually hinted a little bit at this last year for, you
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  know, listeners who who might have attended last year.
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  We talked quite a lot about fragility.
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  We talked quite a lot about these four big kind of technical
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  developments that are happening, which again, going back to last
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  year, AI, continuous identity, personal identity, and someone's
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  going to remind me what the 4th 1 was and no one's going to
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  remind me what the full form was.
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  Oh, well, somebody can go and look it up afterwards.
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  And the point that we made that identity really acts as a
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  substrate, right? It, it pulls everything
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  together. It helps us deal with, with that
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  fragility. And the reason that, that we
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  talked about that partly was because it was very true last
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  year. It continues to be true.
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  And so this year we're talking about really two things.
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  One is that exactly that line of thinking, right?
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  And it's increasingly the case that our digital identity
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  systems are absolutely fundamental to building trust.
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  And it's trust that allows us to get work done in the, in the
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  digital world, right? It, it's kind of fundamental to,
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  to how everything works at the same time.
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  There's an awful lot of change going on.
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  And so there's, there's as a result of that, a lot of
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  uncertainty for digital identity professionals.
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  There's also a huge amount of innovation that's happening.
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  And knowing when this episode is going to go out, I can, I can
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  hint at least a little bit at some of my opening remarks.
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  So, you know, if you go back again to the to the very
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  beginning of Identiverse, when it used to be called Identity
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  Summit, one of the reasons that Cloud Identity Summit that Andre
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  originally set up the conference was because at the time, and
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  this was just when cloud computing was becoming a thing.
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  And, and we didn't know as an industry, as in a profession, we
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  didn't know how to do identity in the cloud really.
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  And so part of the point of Cloud Identity Summit was to
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  answer that question. Well, you know, here we are 15
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  some years later and there's sufficient change going on,
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  particularly around agentic AI specifically, but there's a
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  bunch of other stuff too. And we're all sat here kind of
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  asking the same question, which is how do we do identity now,
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  right? The good news is that there's a
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  lot more of us to kind of help answer that question, right?
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  So that's, you know, contextually some of the stuff
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  that that we'll start talking about I think this year and then
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  you know, what we started to see through the CFP gives gives some
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  meat to all of that. I'm going to let Heather talk
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  about that a little bit. Yeah, because that was one of
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  the things that I guess one of the first things I did was when
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  when the CFP opened, there were there was, you know, we have
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  different tracks and one of the tracks was AI and identity.
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  And I took a look at what came in and I thought about it and I
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  ripped the track apart because that it didn't make sense.
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  AI isn't a a, you know, a vertical.
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  It isn't its own thing. It's always AI in the context of
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  something else, AI and how it's impacting security, AI and how
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  it's impacting the business, AI and how it's impacting privacy.
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  All of which were other tracks we had.
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  So and unfortunately about oh, easily anywhere, somewhere
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  between a third and a half of the submissions that came in
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  came in under that AI category. So I ended up recategorizing a
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  whole bunch of different things because again, they didn't make
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  sense 'cause they weren't about AI, they were about something
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  else and how you could use AI with that.
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  So I, that's I think an interesting trend and concept
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  for the industry to be thinking about the fact that, you know,
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  AI, while it's certainly taking over our conversations and
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  influencing what we do, there's still what we do, right?
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  We're still doing identity verification, improving, we're
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  still working on security, we're still doing all of these things.
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  This is just a tool that's making, you know all the things
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  go faster. Not better, just faster.
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  I think there's a growing sense that identity is at the center,
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  not to toot our own horn, but it's at the center of all these
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  things like agentic systems and wallets and kind of automation
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  in general, machines, workloads. How is this affecting like that
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  thought? And you hear it a lot in terms
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  of this catch phrase. I keep hearing identity is the
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  control plane, which is generally, I think the way I
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  interpret that is like you're using identity now to secure
• 17:06
  systems rather than just depending on external controls,
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  things like that. So first correct me in terms of
• 17:15
  like that statement I just made, but then also because I, I see
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  you guys shaking your head now. So that's great.
• 17:22
  That's what this show is all about is educating people,
• 17:25
  including me and Jeff, but also talk about that how that concept
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  affects the theme of this year's conference my.
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  Gosh, I have such opinions. But Andy, you go first, because
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  I got a soapbox right here and I'm about to hop on it.
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  So, yeah, I, you know, you're right, Jim, in the sense that
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  that phrase gets gets thrown around the lot, right?
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  The identity is the control plane.
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  And it's not unreasonable. It's just, for me, it doesn't go
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  far enough because it gets us back into that mode of saying
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  identity is all about security. It's security is very important,
• 18:00
  don't get me wrong, but identity is also about enablement.
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  It's about making stuff possible.
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  And so I actually like to think of it as the enablement plane
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  and not the control plane, right?
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  It, it, it's, it's really important that we don't forget
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  that. And there are lots of things in
• 18:17
  the identity space that actually have nothing really to do with
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  controlling in, in that sense, right?
• 18:23
  And they give us control in other ways, but that isn't
• 18:29
  really what people mean when they say it.
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  So that's why I'm still here shaking my head.
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  Is I just, I just, it feels very reductive to be saying identity
• 18:36
  is the control plane. It's so much more than that.
• 18:38
  And I'm going to. So one of the things I do in my
• 18:42
  copious free time is I write blog posts.
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  I like writing blog posts and I wrote one this week that said
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  identity systems don't make decisions.
• 18:52
  They they are part of a decision making process.
• 18:55
  But so much goes into, you know, an access decision or you know,
• 19:00
  some kind of enablement decision, but that the
• 19:02
  information is going to come from a lot of different areas.
• 19:05
  Identity is a critical area, but it is one of many.
• 19:09
  And I think one of the things that that gets very complicated
• 19:14
  for people is, you know, aren't we, we talk about the industry.
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  I think even some of the questions that we wrote in
• 19:19
  advance, we're talking about the industry.
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  And my question was what's the industry?
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  What is it? It's, it's not just identity,
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  right? If you want to put it that way,
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  every single company that has an online presence or uses
• 19:32
  computers is an identity company.
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  It, it almost makes the term the industry meaningless.
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  We do have subject matter experts, but if they only look
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  at it from their point of view as to identity being the control
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  or the enablement or anything, you've missed out on all the
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  other things that actually end up going into decisions being
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  made. And that's going to be a really
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  big problem. Now we get to my soapbox part.
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  That's going to be a really big problem when you actually start
• 20:02
  using AI to help speed up your decisions.
• 20:07
  Because one of the things that we know about AI is that it's
• 20:11
  not generally A deterministic system.
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  It's not a, it's not a binary system.
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  It's going to probably. Take information and usually
• 20:21
  make the same choices each time, but not necessarily.
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  So a lot of our thinking about the binary, of course, if
• 20:29
  identity says yes or identity says no, then that's, that's the
• 20:33
  end all be all. But I don't think that's the way
• 20:35
  it's going to be going forward. So it's that's something I think
• 20:38
  is important to think about. That's pretty deep.
• 20:41
  I really like that answer about what is the industry.
• 20:45
  I remember in the 90s when I was first getting into networking, I
• 20:49
  heard somebody talking about computers or operating systems.
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  I got so excited. It's like, oh, there's one of my
• 20:55
  people like we're in this computer world.
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  And then in 2006, I went to Digital Identity World and it
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  was like, holy cow, this to me, that was the industry.
• 21:06
  That was the digital, or let's call it the IM industry at the
• 21:09
  time. And what I loved about it was it
• 21:13
  just wasn't about the zeros and ones.
• 21:16
  And it wasn't even just about like, how does this make your
• 21:18
  business better? It was the philosophy of what is
• 21:23
  an identity? I still think that element
• 21:27
  exists that that that thread exists within the community or
• 21:34
  the industry. I kind of feel like the industry
• 21:37
  is really comes to bear when you talk about these conferences,
• 21:41
  right? Not everybody can go to the
• 21:42
  conferences. I get that, but it is a
• 21:45
  representation of people who consider consider themselves in
• 21:50
  the identity industry. But I also feel like potentially
• 21:54
  we're we're always getting better, right?
• 21:56
  And like every year seems like, hey, major milestones.
• 21:59
  So some of those things that we're talking about now we might
• 22:03
  have been talking about a year ago.
• 22:06
  I'm wondering like, and I'm going to ask you this question
• 22:09
  first other than Andy, feel free to jump in, is what are we
• 22:12
  potentially as an industry under estimating now about the
• 22:16
  importance of identity I. Think we're under estimating the
• 22:20
  long tail we, when you come to ideniverse or authenticate or
• 22:26
  EIC, any of the RSA, any of the Tier 1 conferences, you're,
• 22:31
  you're looking at people who are thinking about, you know, what's
• 22:35
  possible today and where are we trying to go and what's most
• 22:38
  urgent to do. And you know, it's a very
• 22:42
  immediate kind of thing. However, there are industries,
• 22:46
  and I'm going to point to scholarly publishing.
• 22:49
  Scholarly publishing is kind of an important industry, if you
• 22:52
  think about it, right? It's it's about how people are
• 22:55
  are where research goes, where education goes.
• 22:58
  It's all there. And they're still struggling
• 23:01
  with the concept of can they use federation or do they need to
• 23:06
  just stick with their local accounts, username and
• 23:08
  passwords. The long tail in just that one
• 23:11
  group is pretty epic. And yet we don't talk about them
• 23:15
  anymore because that's like, that's so 15 years ago.
• 23:20
  The long tail is getting longer. And we as identity professionals
• 23:27
  don't want to talk about that anymore because solving that
• 23:30
  problem isn't a technical problem, it's a business
• 23:33
  problem, it's a social problem. And I think that's what we in
• 23:39
  not talking about it, we kind of forget about it.
• 23:41
  And I think that will bite us in the butt at some point.
• 23:44
  Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that.
• 23:47
  I'm going to come at this from a slightly different perspective,
• 23:49
  which basically means I'm going to ask a different question.
• 23:54
  And it's and it's the the question is more something that
• 23:59
  I think the industry and the profession is not thinking
• 24:04
  about. And again, by the time this
• 24:06
  actually goes out, I will have spoken about this publicly.
• 24:12
  One of the things that's happened over the course of say
• 24:15
  the last three or four years slightly quietly, but it's
• 24:19
  suddenly become really obvious, is that non human access to
• 24:27
  things, in other words, API requests of some kind
• 24:31
  dramatically outnumber human requests for things.
• 24:36
  And yet we are still, by and large designing identity systems
• 24:41
  with the human access in mind. So I'm going to restate that a
• 24:46
  different way we're designing most of our work is designing
• 24:51
  for what is actually an edge case.
• 24:53
  Human access is the edge case. That's really worrying because
• 24:59
  it means that we're designing things kind of the wrong way for
• 25:02
  what identity is going to look like over the course of the
• 25:05
  next, say, five years. That isn't to say that designing
• 25:09
  for human access is important. Actually, I think it becomes
• 25:11
  more important in that case. It's a little bit like the
• 25:13
  conversations we've had about, you know, making sure that
• 25:17
  people who are digitally excluded have ways of accessing
• 25:21
  digital systems. That's a conversation that we've
• 25:23
  had over the years, and it becomes increasingly important
• 25:27
  that the, you know, over time. This is the same thing.
• 25:32
  And I think that the industry and the profession massively
• 25:35
  underestimate how much work needs to be done, how much needs
• 25:40
  to change to allow for that fact.
• 25:43
  Yeah, that's really fascinating. So I did want to talk a little
• 25:47
  bit about some of the subject matter that was discussed last
• 25:52
  year. I've always thought of identity
• 25:54
  and access management as identity management.
• 25:57
  Access management. Access management for the old
• 26:00
  school was authentication and authorization, right?
• 26:03
  It wasn't like managing people's identity information or what
• 26:08
  they have access to. It was the authentication side.
• 26:11
  I think somebody changed the definition and forgot to inform
• 26:15
  everyone. So I'm still referring to it
• 26:17
  that way. But in quotations, it was
• 26:21
  authentication is done. We talked about this last year.
• 26:24
  I think what we mean is authentication was solved.
• 26:27
  In other words, like the the progress in that area is so
• 26:30
  incremental. I think with that agentic
• 26:33
  identity that makes you question that like is it OK, maybe you
• 26:39
  solve for people, maybe it's like incremental for people, but
• 26:44
  our problem is a lot more about non people.
• 26:47
  So Andy, what are your thoughts there when someone says
• 26:49
  authentication is solved? Yeah.
• 26:52
  So I think, you know, when, when we started to throw that phrase
• 26:55
  around, I think we particularly had in mind that the, the, the
• 26:59
  past key construct really is very solid.
• 27:04
  And yeah, there's, you know, to, to pick up Heather's point about
• 27:07
  long tail, there's an enormous deployment effort still
• 27:10
  required. But as a solution to the, to the
• 27:14
  historic problem, I think it's, it's a very good one.
• 27:16
  And I'm not clearly the only person that thinks that.
• 27:21
  I think you're right, Jim, that that work has to continue,
• 27:26
  right? Let's be clear, we shouldn't
• 27:27
  stop doing that. If you haven't deployed Passkey
• 27:30
  yet, you'll still don't, you should go do that, right?
• 27:33
  That's a priority. I think one of the things that
• 27:39
  that sort of emerged out of Idanoverse last year and which
• 27:42
  we're absolutely going to be talking about this year is the
• 27:46
  incredibly important role that the continuous identity
• 27:50
  architecture is going to play. And so that incorporates shared
• 27:54
  signals, 0, standing privilege, a whole bunch of stuff around
• 27:58
  how authorisation works in that context and some of the new work
• 28:03
  that's going on there. All of these things kind of fit
• 28:07
  together, right. But that continuous architecture
• 28:11
  which people already starting to deploy and we had talks about it
• 28:14
  last year. We'll have you know, plenty more
• 28:16
  talks about it this year in terms of really practical things
• 28:19
  that the people can and should be doing.
• 28:23
  It also provides provides us the wrong word.
• 28:28
  It also delivers an architecture that ties in very well to the
• 28:36
  emergence of digital identity wallets and verifiable
• 28:40
  credentials and ways that those things, sorry, and other
• 28:45
  credential types and ways that those things I suspect will be
• 28:51
  used over the course of the next say few years to provide the
• 28:58
  information that's required for an authorisation decision.
• 29:02
  Whether that is a very coarse grained yet you can have access
• 29:07
  or whether it's a very fine grained you need to carry out
• 29:10
  this specific operation at this specific time, right?
• 29:15
  So I think that's kind of the and and it's a massive thing,
• 29:20
  right? It's it's not the getting Paskey
• 29:23
  done was simple at all. Huge amount of work went into
• 29:25
  it, but it's kind of a constrained problem, right?
• 29:29
  This is not a constrained problem.
• 29:30
  It's much bigger than that. It's going to take longer, but I
• 29:33
  think that's that's where the the work really needs to happen
• 29:38
  from my perspective if. You want to think of it as a
• 29:40
  purely technical problem, then sure, pass keys are, are great
• 29:45
  and they have solved for, you know, the majority of, of
• 29:49
  authentication challenges. Though some of the work that
• 29:54
  needs to happen is like I've, I've spoken to people who are
• 29:57
  like, yeah, I'm not convinced because they don't absolutely
• 30:01
  want people. We say pass keys as if it is
• 30:03
  just one thing, which it isn't right?
• 30:07
  You, you can actually have syncopal pass keys.
• 30:09
  You can have hardware based pass keys, you know, and and which
• 30:12
  you choose depends on the use cases that you're trying to
• 30:14
  solve for. There's, there's like a whole
• 30:16
  decision tree that feeds up into are you deploying pass keys?
• 30:20
  Well, if then else, Bah, Bah, Bah, Bah, Bah, we that's always
• 30:25
  seems to be missing in a lot of the conversations.
• 30:27
  And I've been working on some text for a client to try and,
• 30:32
  and clean that up a little bit to be a little bit more clear
• 30:34
  that yes, pass queues can solve your problems if you choose the
• 30:37
  right one for your risk, for your need, things like that.
• 30:43
  So I'm sure that that's that's part of the conversations that
• 30:46
  need to be have authorization. Oh my gosh, we are.
• 30:51
  I think we're pretty far away from solving that at this point
• 30:54
  because authorization ties directly into delegation and
• 30:59
  delegation we, you know, we still don't know how to do in a
• 31:04
  complete fashion. We do have Oauth for the win.
• 31:07
  Love Oauth, don't love the fact that it doesn't handle chaining
• 31:12
  all that well. There's a lot of conversations
• 31:14
  about how to get there from here, but those are all still
• 31:17
  pretty. I don't want to see speculative.
• 31:20
  They're nascent, right? They're, they're at their
• 31:22
  beginnings for all intents and purposes.
• 31:24
  So a whole lot of more work needs to happen there.
• 31:27
  Now when you take that back to a conference like Ideniverse,
• 31:31
  Ideniverse attracts the people that are looking for, I have a
• 31:35
  problem now and I want to solve it.
• 31:37
  Now what, what are the solutions out there now for me?
• 31:41
  And so some of these bigger picture things we're looking at
• 31:44
  of, well, these are problems. They don't actually have
• 31:46
  solutions yet, you know, they almost don't.
• 31:49
  They frustrate attendees. They're almost not ready for
• 31:53
  identifiers yet, which is one of the reasons why there's a whole
• 31:56
  range of other conferences out there to look at the OK, well,
• 31:58
  if this is what's happening now, what's happening in the three to
• 32:01
  five year range, what's happening in the seven plus year
• 32:04
  range, all of those are conversations that still need to
• 32:06
  happen. Let.
• 32:06
  Me play the Debbie Downer, Jim McDonald card here because we
• 32:12
  always say things are, well, I don't know.
• 32:14
  Things are not solved right. I think there are varying
• 32:16
  degrees of the solution. And so I would, I would say for
• 32:21
  the most part, yeah, authentication is probably been
• 32:25
  solved, but we're unsolving it almost in real time because of
• 32:29
  all the new challenges that we're seeing with agentic and
• 32:32
  AI. And how are we going to
• 32:34
  authenticate some of these things?
• 32:35
  And maybe it does take advantage of some of the things that we've
• 32:38
  learned from the human that we've been trying to solve
• 32:41
  authentication for. And so I feel like it's, it's
• 32:43
  never like 100%. It's like, yeah, I think we're
• 32:45
  like 80% solved and then some new thing comes along and says
• 32:49
  up back to 20, we've got to figure that out.
• 32:52
  And it's kind of like a, an equation that never quite comes
• 32:54
  into balance. And I don't know if that's, I
• 32:57
  mean, it's just the way it's going to work.
• 32:58
  But I mean, you could take that same equation across really any
• 33:02
  part of identity authorization. I'm with you, Heather.
• 33:05
  I feel like we're much closer to 10 percent, 20% solved than we
• 33:09
  are to 80%. Like I'm the whole, but there's
• 33:12
  always a sort of a give and take and I don't know, you know,
• 33:14
  Heather, am I am I preaching to the choir for you?
• 33:16
  And then Andy, I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are and
• 33:18
  sort of that that rebound that I'm pushing back to.
• 33:20
  Oh, absolutely. But I, I would, you know, to be
• 33:24
  snarky, I'd say, Jeff, let me introduce you to the concept of
• 33:28
  job security, but more, more realistically, I, one of the
• 33:33
  things that that I've told people and generally gets
• 33:37
  agreement is the identity industry is sticky.
• 33:42
  It's really sticky. Once you've touched on it, you
• 33:44
  kind of can't, we don't let you escape because there's so much
• 33:48
  to do and so many the, you know, the problems that we think we're
• 33:51
  solving evolve over time and new uses cases come in, new
• 33:56
  capabilities come in, which is, which is slightly different from
• 33:59
  just the new use case, right? It's a whole new capability, a
• 34:01
  whole new tool. How would you use it?
• 34:04
  So there's always going to be more to do, without a doubt.
• 34:09
  And I. Think you're right, Jeff.
• 34:10
  You know that those sort of two steps forward, one step back
• 34:12
  kind of thing is. Is.
• 34:14
  True. There you go.
• 34:17
  And A and a little frustrating and I think, I mean, Heather
• 34:21
  alluded to this and it it's something, you know, several of
• 34:25
  us have been thinking about probably for a couple of years
• 34:28
  now. Is this this notion of time
• 34:31
  horizons? I've been thinking about it in
• 34:33
  the context really of of the various conferences, but Ian
• 34:38
  Glaser has spoken about this in the context of, you know, large
• 34:42
  enterprise, right? That that, that one to
• 34:46
  three-year time frame, which which really is, you know, when
• 34:49
  Heather says a problem to solve, you know, something to deploy
• 34:51
  now, right? It's for a large enterprise
• 34:53
  that's kind of a three-year time frame problem.
• 34:56
  And it's really important that we don't in in, I guess the
• 35:02
  concern of how do we solve for tomorrow's problems, even though
• 35:07
  some of those tomorrow's problems, especially the ones
• 35:09
  around, you know, things like agentic AI are really kind of
• 35:12
  today's problems, but we don't have solid solutions for them
• 35:16
  yet, right? It's really important that we
• 35:19
  don't lose sight of getting the work done.
• 35:23
  Now, even that will make things better, right?
• 35:28
  Safer, easier to use, more purposely preserving whatever it
• 35:32
  might be still needs to get done.
• 35:35
  And I think particularly now there is this huge risk that we
• 35:39
  end up not getting that stuff done.
• 35:42
  The long tail gets longer, you never catch up, right?
• 35:48
  That, that level of focus, I think is really important.
• 35:51
  So all of that's to say I, I kind of agree with you, Jeff.
• 35:54
  It's just, it's the nature of the beast and we have to be, we
• 35:58
  have to be careful about making sure that we get today's work
• 36:01
  done as well as thinking about tomorrow's solutions.
• 36:03
  Heather. One of the things I said, so I'm
• 36:07
  also a working group chair in a couple of different standards
• 36:09
  organizations. And one of the things that I
• 36:11
  really encourage people to think about for some of the
• 36:15
  specifications we write is does this box us into a corner?
• 36:20
  Maybe it's OK to be boxed into a corner, but I want to be
• 36:22
  explicit. Does this box us into a corner
• 36:25
  in terms of closing doors for directions we can take?
• 36:28
  I think that's one of the best questions people can ask when
• 36:31
  they are looking at deploying some things for problems that
• 36:34
  aren't entirely solved. Go ahead and do that, but but
• 36:37
  think about does that make it harder to move in a direction
• 36:42
  that it looks like the industry is going to go if they ever, you
• 36:45
  know, figure out how to do things and I'm guessing.
• 36:47
  Box. Order means right now, right?
• 36:48
  Because we don't know what's coming in the future.
• 36:50
  So you try to be extensible. Well, I think.
• 36:52
  Where you yes and no. I mean, we know that delegation
• 36:54
  is a huge problem, right? So if you're deploying something
• 36:58
  that locks in how you do delegation in only one way or
• 37:03
  that you've funded it so that, OK, we're going to do this, but
• 37:06
  now we don't, we won't be able to change anything for another
• 37:09
  five years. Do you really want to do that?
• 37:12
  Was that a good idea? Right.
• 37:14
  No, you don't know how it's going to do, but you kind of
• 37:16
  have to build in a certain level of flexibility and resilience
• 37:21
  because you have to solve the problem today.
• 37:24
  But the actual best practice hasn't been determined yet,
• 37:27
  Andy. You want to say something?
• 37:28
  Yeah, I was, I was going to, you know, float over the top of that
• 37:32
  and say, you know, all of this requires tremendous leadership.
• 37:38
  And that isn't by by saying that, in saying that I don't
• 37:42
  mean good management also requires good management, right?
• 37:46
  But leadership comes from any level within an organization.
• 37:51
  And so as digital aid only professionals, we need to think
• 37:54
  about, OK, how do we lead the organization to get the work
• 37:57
  done today? And how do we start to lead the
• 38:01
  organization to think about what's going to need to change
• 38:03
  over the course of the next three to five years?
• 38:06
  That that's they aren't easy things to do, but at whatever
• 38:10
  level, you know, people are operating at, there's
• 38:13
  opportunities to to start to drive those conversations.
• 38:15
  And it's really important as a profession and as an industry
• 38:19
  that that we do that whenever we have the opportunity.
• 38:22
  I think we've kind of hit one of the major themes here.
• 38:25
  I want to hear from you, Heather, from the your role,
• 38:28
  right as kind of seeing all these different calls for
• 38:31
  presentation. What are some of the topics that
• 38:34
  you think other than what we've talked about so far that you
• 38:36
  think are going to be kind of hits with the audience things
• 38:38
  that you're interested? And I'm curious if you had any
• 38:40
  surprises, like, was there something that's like, oh, I
• 38:43
  hadn't thought about that. Or, you know, maybe the calls
• 38:46
  for presentations were all focused on like a certain area.
• 38:49
  I'm guessing there was a lot of AI but.
• 38:51
  Yeah. A certain area that you weren't
• 38:52
  expecting maybe? So that I think, I think what I
• 39:00
  expected to see a little more of and didn't get was more about
• 39:06
  fraud. And I think that's something I'm
• 39:09
  going to push on for next year is I really would like more
• 39:12
  about how fraud comes into the world of identity.
• 39:17
  A lot of times we talk about IAM identity and access management.
• 39:22
  Great. It's a very useful thing to talk
• 39:24
  about the payment side of things which relies heavily on identity
• 39:29
  thinks it's a whole different field and it is at the moment,
• 39:32
  it has been for a long time, but it's kind of bigger than I am is
• 39:37
  I want, I want to see some convergent more convergence
• 39:40
  there. I want to see those discussions
• 39:42
  about fraud coming in and the the people who have IAM on the
• 39:47
  brain think a little bit more about well, yes, but there's
• 39:49
  actually a whole another field that has been working on this
• 39:53
  and has solutions for it and is trying to build better solutions
• 39:56
  for it that we should we shouldn't be two fields.
• 39:59
  We should be 1. So there was that.
• 40:01
  I didn't see as much of that as I wanted to.
• 40:03
  I also didn't see as much as I expected on I mean, yes,
• 40:09
  identity proofing and verification.
• 40:11
  There were there was a bit on deepfakes.
• 40:13
  I'm like, yes. Besides that, that's actually a
• 40:18
  really big critical field. What, what can we talk about
• 40:23
  that isn't deepfakes, You know, there, there is a whole lot more
• 40:26
  about how to do this, about the accessibility of it, about what
• 40:29
  devices you can use, about whether biometrics work that I
• 40:33
  thought could we, we ended up like trying to chase some people
• 40:36
  down saying I think you really need to talk about this.
• 40:40
  So that that's what I would add in.
• 40:43
  I, I would agree with all of that.
• 40:44
  I'm going to throw an extra 1 in, which is, oh, it's a few
• 40:50
  years ago now. I want to say it was the year
• 40:53
  that we were entirely virtual in, in one of the COVID years.
• 40:58
  And we had a focus that year specifically on usability.
• 41:04
  And particularly given the the context of Passkey, I was
• 41:08
  actually kind of surprised that we had very little that talked
• 41:12
  about the user flow, the user experience that all of that,
• 41:15
  right. It's such a critical part of
• 41:18
  what we do. And there's lots of really,
• 41:21
  really interesting work going on.
• 41:22
  There's also some really bad examples or I should say some
• 41:26
  examples of very poor usability. And in some cases, it's not only
• 41:31
  poor usability, it's also marginally, you know, arguable
• 41:35
  as poor security. And I feel like that's an area
• 41:40
  that would be interesting that I was, it was lacking this year,
• 41:44
  right? We've got some, but it would be
• 41:46
  nice to start to see a little more of that.
• 41:48
  You know, one topic I thought I think could be really
• 41:52
  interesting and to kind of go back to my 2006 digital identity
• 41:58
  world point that I was making about it kind of having a
• 42:02
  philosophical thread to the identity industry.
• 42:05
  And you guys rightly pointed out.
• 42:06
  So every, all the stuff I was bringing up is like identity as
• 42:10
  a control plane is really just thinking about identity as
• 42:13
  security. But here's what I I kind of run
• 42:16
  into is that I think organizations, you have a
• 42:21
  balance of wanting to the innate to enable the users to be
• 42:26
  creative and maybe they are AI whizzes and can create agents
• 42:31
  and publish them to the organization.
• 42:34
  And let's assume you have a pretty large organization, but
• 42:37
  then you have the counterbalance, which is we need
• 42:40
  to govern this thing and we need to make sure that people don't
• 42:43
  just start publishing a bunch of agents.
• 42:46
  So I don't know, to me that is where the, where the where this
• 42:53
  hits the road or where the rubber hits the road is
• 42:57
  somebody's got to set up the identities and allow them to
• 43:01
  publish the agents. So I guess my, my follow up is,
• 43:07
  you know, what, how do that, how do you handle that balance?
• 43:11
  And I think that would be a good topic for people to present on.
• 43:16
  What do you think? That's not an identity problem.
• 43:20
  You don't think it's an identity problem?
• 43:22
  No, it's not really a core identity.
• 43:24
  No, I think I. Think it's a governance problem.
• 43:26
  I mean, the the first question you asked what, you know, should
• 43:30
  they be able to do this? That's not an identity problem.
• 43:34
  Should they be able to do this? That's that's about business
• 43:36
  risk, right? That's about IP, that's about
• 43:39
  all sorts of different things. You've got to get through a
• 43:41
  whole mass of stuff before you actually get to the technical
• 43:44
  question of are the, you know, how do you enable the systems to
• 43:49
  identify who's trying to do it, what they're trying to do, what
• 43:52
  access it has, how much you can delegate to it?
• 43:54
  Those are great problems, but you got to get to the are you
• 43:57
  even allowed first? And that's not technical.
• 44:01
  Who's talking about it though? And.
• 44:03
  That's a great. Question.
• 44:04
  What ends up happening? Who like who has to make those
• 44:07
  decisions in an organization? That.
• 44:11
  I kind of feel like it keeps that's a good.
• 44:13
  Conversation. But that's where I think you
• 44:16
  have that with your Seesos, you have it with your business
• 44:18
  people. I would love to have them at
• 44:20
  Identiverse because I know a lot of identity people are just
• 44:23
  desperate for. Would would our business people
• 44:24
  please give us direction? It is interesting.
• 44:27
  I mean, and, and specifically in the context of AI, this is
• 44:30
  interesting because that area is moving so very, very, very
• 44:35
  quickly and it's wholly understood even amongst let's
• 44:41
  call them technically capable people who might just not be
• 44:46
  specifically working in the field of AI, right.
• 44:48
  There's plenty of of misapprehension,
• 44:53
  miscomprehension to to go around even amongst technical folks.
• 44:57
  Once you start to get outside of the realms of the technical,
• 44:59
  people have all sorts of fascinating ideas about what
• 45:02
  this new magic is is going to let them do.
• 45:08
  And that doesn't help with that conversation, right, Because
• 45:10
  people don't don't know at the executive level, they don't know
• 45:13
  what they don't know. They're asking in many cases the
• 45:16
  wrong questions. I've sat in on a, a in an
• 45:21
  entirely different sphere to this.
• 45:22
  I've sat in on a, a couple of kind of board level
• 45:24
  conversations about how do we think about AI in, in, you know,
• 45:29
  large, large multinational organisations.
• 45:32
  Some of those conversations are really positive and helpful and
• 45:34
  good. And, and, you know, you kind of
• 45:36
  get the sense that people are doing the work to understand
• 45:38
  what this really means to the business.
• 45:41
  In other cases, they're just scrambling because they feel
• 45:44
  like they have to keep up and, and and do something.
• 45:49
  In a lot of cases, what's happening is you, you that
• 45:51
  they're not thinking about that policy question that you raised,
• 45:55
  Jim, right? They're just going, yeah, we
• 45:56
  need to do this, make it so. And and nobody ever defines
• 46:00
  this. I mean, it's like it's it's
• 46:04
  problematic. So, yeah, I mean, there are ways
• 46:07
  I think as a, again, as a, as an industry and a profession that
• 46:10
  we can where we can engage in, in those conversations to try
• 46:14
  and help. But it's in the Ala context
• 46:17
  specifically. It's really, really difficult
• 46:19
  right now. Yeah, it's about publishing the
• 46:22
  agents, but then even what the agents can do.
• 46:25
  And I think that if you look at it at the surface level, people
• 46:28
  think, oh, well, you know, Heather Access, my agent uses
• 46:33
  Heather's capabilities, you know, her entitlements and her
• 46:37
  access. But the problem is the agent has
• 46:40
  24 by 7 is operating in the background, scraping data, doing
• 46:44
  all kinds of things. So what identity is being used
• 46:49
  for that? But then can people publish,
• 46:51
  publish agents? I think we're kind of an
• 46:54
  inflection moment, which is, you know, organizations are going to
• 46:58
  have to decide like, you know, what rights do they allow their
• 47:03
  people to have to build agents? Are they going to restrict it?
• 47:07
  Or is this something that they're going to say take an
• 47:09
  entrepreneurial approach to? And I don't think we're going to
• 47:12
  solve that today, but I think to and, and feel free to follow up,
• 47:16
  Andy, but I think that one of the points was made as by
• 47:20
  Heather was these are the hallway conversations that
• 47:23
  happened at Identiverse. To me, it's the in person
• 47:27
  conversations at conferences that make conferences worth
• 47:31
  getting on a plane and sleeping in a hotel worth it, right?
• 47:35
  It's the in person conversations.
• 47:39
  I know that Identiverse has a lot of workshops and networking
• 47:45
  events lined up. Can you talk a little bit about
• 47:48
  that Andy? And and feel free to address my
• 47:51
  last point and then go into answering the question.
• 47:55
  Yeah, No, I, you're, you're, you're right.
• 47:58
  We should talk about those things.
• 47:59
  And I'm, I'm smiling because I'm remembering an observation.
• 48:03
  I was having a, a conversation with a couple of folks about,
• 48:05
  you know, the impact that AI might have on various different
• 48:09
  industries. And I, and I think, you know,
• 48:11
  one of the questions that a lot of organizations don't ask at
• 48:15
  the moment is not, not just, you know, the thing you were getting
• 48:19
  to, Jim, which is, OK, what can we do with it?
• 48:22
  What, what is possible and how should we enable that?
• 48:25
  But the, the, the question that comes first is why are we doing
• 48:29
  this right? What, what, how does it benefit
• 48:31
  the business to us doing this? How do we improve the business
• 48:34
  by the point that's where organisations have to start?
• 48:37
  And again, to have this point, that's not an identity problem,
• 48:39
  right? That comes before we, we get
• 48:42
  stuck in, but we should go and try and be part of those
• 48:45
  conversations if we can. So I was, I was having actually
• 48:49
  a very similar conversation to this with a couple of folks.
• 48:51
  And, and you know, we, we talked through this and we were
• 48:53
  starting to talk about, you know, what impact do we think AI
• 48:57
  is going to have on, on different events.
• 48:59
  And we started to talk about content in particular and some
• 49:02
  of the challenges around, you know, AI generated material and,
• 49:06
  you know, it's very clever, predicted text engine and all of
• 49:09
  those things. And it occurred to me and I said
• 49:13
  it and, and everyone went quiet and then nodded, which is what
• 49:15
  I'm hoping is going to happen here is I actually think that AI
• 49:19
  is tremendously beneficial for the events business.
• 49:22
  And the reason I think that, Jim, is because people actually
• 49:25
  want to know that they're talking to a real person.
• 49:27
  The best place to do that is at a conference.
• 49:30
  So I don't know whether that's true, but I mean, I think I
• 49:34
  think the statement is true. Whether it actually helps the
• 49:36
  events businesses all or not, I don't know, right?
• 49:38
  That's outside of my, my, really my, my sphere of expertise.
• 49:41
  But it's a reasonable conjecture.
• 49:45
  And I do think that's something that we've always done very
• 49:48
  successfully at Identiverse is even for folks who are coming
• 49:53
  for the first time, even for folks who are relatively new to
• 49:56
  the industry or the profession. It is, I like to think, and I
• 50:01
  hear from other people, it's hard for me not to be biased at
• 50:04
  this point, but we try very hard to make it a very welcoming,
• 50:09
  open kind of a place, right? We really encourage people to go
• 50:12
  and have those conversations and know that, you know, if, if you
• 50:18
  know, somebody's presented on a topic and then you see them a
• 50:21
  little later, feel free to go and gently start asking them
• 50:25
  some questions. I recommend not doing that
• 50:27
  immediately as they come off stage, right?
• 50:29
  Give people a chance to breathe. It can be nerve wracking to
• 50:33
  present to an audience of your peers, even if you do it
• 50:36
  frequently, standing up in front of a couple 100 people in a room
• 50:40
  and, and talking about, you know, a, a, a subject that you
• 50:42
  know, inside out, but you know that there are people in that
• 50:45
  audience who, who probably know it as well.
• 50:47
  It's, it's nerve wracking. And I have a huge amount of
• 50:49
  respect for everybody that that helps to, to do that every year.
• 50:54
  So give people a moment right as they come off stage, but go and
• 50:58
  have those conversations. And, and as you say, there are a
• 51:00
  number of things that that we do at the event and that CRA, you
• 51:05
  know, helps to put on around the event to help with that.
• 51:08
  Lots of networking opportunities, lots of stuff
• 51:11
  going on in the Expo hall, you know, some of which is is put on
• 51:15
  by the sponsors as well. We will have at the very
• 51:19
  beginning of the week, as we always do, we'll have a session
• 51:23
  specifically for, for newcomers, really recommend that folks go
• 51:27
  to that, especially if it's their, if it's their first time.
• 51:30
  Lots of really good information about how to navigate the week.
• 51:34
  And there's a number of other kind of community oriented
• 51:38
  things that are happening, you know, through through the course
• 51:41
  of the week. Heather, I know you've got a
• 51:42
  couple that that you're picking up as well.
• 51:44
  So. Yep, there's a woman at
• 51:47
  identiver side meeting on Tuesday.
• 51:51
  It's actually open to anyone, but that's from like 2:00 to
• 51:54
  5:00 and has some interesting panels and discussions that will
• 51:59
  be happening. The the hallway conversations
• 52:02
  are great. And one of the reasons I like
• 52:03
  the sessions is because that helps you identify, you know, 30
• 52:08
  to 100 other people that were interested in the same thing.
• 52:10
  And maybe you don't want to like leap on the poor speaker as they
• 52:13
  come off the stage, but you'll look at, well, who was actually
• 52:15
  asking questions in the audience.
• 52:16
  Those are people you can go talk to.
• 52:18
  I will say in terms of how AI has impacted the events
• 52:22
  industry, though, is if I was queen of the universe, I am
• 52:25
  absolutely going to limit how many proposals any one person
• 52:29
  can submit because it got crazy pants.
• 52:33
  And you could tell it's like one person I think was close to 20
• 52:36
  submissions. And I'm, I'm very, you know, I'm
• 52:40
  grateful that they were that engaged and that interested.
• 52:42
  And but for the love of Pete, could you focus?
• 52:46
  You should have. Just accepted them all.
• 52:49
  Yes, and then? You would have to talk in
• 52:51
  parallel. Yeah, just malicious.
• 52:54
  Compliance. I love it.
• 52:57
  So one person submitted 20 different talks all on AI or
• 53:01
  different no. But you could tell that they
• 53:02
  were he used AI to help them generate the proposal.
• 53:05
  That's that's the part that I I see most immediately is how how
• 53:10
  AI is is helping with with people submitting to the CFP.
• 53:15
  Well, the answer to AI is more AI.
• 53:17
  So you you know you've got AI submitting proposals, now you
• 53:20
  need an AI to judge and remove. Proposals.
• 53:23
  So we, we don't have time to get on this because I suspect that
• 53:27
  Heather and I are going to share a soapbox at this point.
• 53:29
  But just very briefly, how irritating is it that, you know,
• 53:34
  because most LLMS are trained on a volume of literature and high
• 53:39
  quality writing, that we're now using high quality writing as
• 53:45
  the thing to tell us if it was written by AI, right?
• 53:48
  Like there's a reason the M dash exists and some of us have been
• 53:52
  using it for a really long time. Likewise the semi colon.
• 53:55
  Likewise, long words and complicated sentence
• 53:58
  constructions that never seem to get to the end like this one.
• 54:02
  There's a reason those things exist.
• 54:03
  They exist in academic literature, and some of us can
• 54:05
  do that. Anyway, I'll get off my little
• 54:08
  soapbox now. The answer now is.
• 54:11
  There are studies, I think, like the.
• 54:12
  Instruction. Set.
• 54:13
  That's like, you know, but there are obviously.
• 54:15
  Make mine, you know, have misspellings or you know,
• 54:18
  occasional improper gram no. Give me the soapbox.
• 54:21
  I want it. OK, there, there there are
• 54:23
  actually studies now about how the fact that AI has this
• 54:28
  pattern of language is impacting how people are speaking and
• 54:31
  writing. It's, you know, there, there is
• 54:34
  only a brief window where we can look at something and go, OK, so
• 54:37
  obviously AI because people are adapting to AI at least as much
• 54:43
  as AI is adapting to what people say.
• 54:45
  Which you're absolutely right, Heather, I should have picked up
• 54:48
  on that. And I will take that into
• 54:49
  consideration of my next question.
• 54:54
  All right, let's start to close out because we're running a
• 54:56
  little bit long, but I want to talk about not this year, but
• 54:59
  next year. Are there any sneak peeks or
• 55:03
  ideas that you think of topics? And Heather, I'll start with you
• 55:07
  of things that you think are going to be topics of
• 55:10
  conversation at next year's Identiverse.
• 55:12
  Time to put on that hat that says here's the future.
• 55:15
  Well, I am going to come back to the topic of fraud.
• 55:18
  I definitely want to to see that in there.
• 55:23
  I know people want to hear about AI.
• 55:26
  We'll I'll think about ways to make that more specific.
• 55:31
  I do think I'm going to pull apart right now.
• 55:33
  We have consumer, citizen and customer in one track.
• 55:38
  We might start pulling that apart because I think that's
• 55:41
  there. There's now certainly enough
• 55:43
  interesting stuff happening in the government space that it may
• 55:45
  need its own dedicated area of conversation.
• 55:50
  It's going to be I'm, I'm, I'm willing to bet it's going to be
• 55:53
  a bigger event next year. So we're going to probably have
• 55:57
  more more tracks as a result because there is more to say in
• 56:00
  the space. Andy, what do you think?
• 56:01
  I agree. With all of that, including the,
• 56:04
  it's going to be a bigger event. I mean, look, we're going to be
• 56:06
  close on 4000 people this year. We're going to be close on 200
• 56:10
  sponsors and, and supporters. And I mean, it's, it's really
• 56:14
  big and it's just going to get bigger because the industry and
• 56:17
  the profession is getting bigger because identity is so
• 56:19
  fundamental to everything that happens.
• 56:22
  I don't want to get, you know, too far ahead of of where I
• 56:25
  think we might be heading directionally, but I mentioned
• 56:30
  it, you know, kind of at the top of the the conversation or at
• 56:34
  least near to it. This the the importance of how
• 56:41
  we continue to think about the user experience, I think is
• 56:45
  something that that is increasingly important and gets
• 56:52
  progressively less solid coverage.
• 56:56
  And I think there's a lot to think about there, particularly
• 57:00
  as we start to, you know, to design around a bunch of non
• 57:05
  human actors, right? And as you start to think about
• 57:10
  continuous architecture and and where do you know, wallets and
• 57:14
  verifiable credentials and other credential types fit into all of
• 57:18
  that, there are a bunch of really big questions to start
• 57:21
  asking. Some of them have good answers
• 57:23
  already, some of them don't. But I do think that that that
• 57:28
  feels to me like a direction the industry needs to needs to have
• 57:31
  in mind at least. And I should have prefaced this
• 57:34
  by saying this is all highly speculative, right?
• 57:36
  It may very well be that you ask me this question again, you
• 57:39
  know, come the end of Ideniverse and I'll be like, no, Jeff, no,
• 57:42
  we're going to talk about something completely that isn't
• 57:44
  this. We're going to, we're going to,
• 57:46
  oh, I don't know, let's think of something really outlandish.
• 57:50
  We're going to start talking about the use of Prologue in
• 57:53
  building identity systems. I think that's unlikely, by the
• 57:56
  way, but you know. I thought you were going to
• 57:59
  mention like, oh, the password is dead again for like the 40th
• 58:02
  year in a row. So if we had to come up with a
• 58:07
  theme for a theme song for Identiverse, what would you
• 58:11
  pick? I've asked this question a
• 58:12
  couple times from some kind of recent events like Identity
• 58:15
  Management Day and and things like that.
• 58:17
  Andy, let me start with you. What is the What is your theme
• 58:20
  song for Idaniverse 2026? I, I, I had a whole thought
• 58:24
  process here, so you're just going to have to give me a
• 58:26
  minute, right? So I started out with so you
• 58:29
  know, the the theme tune from 2001, a Space Odyssey, right,
• 58:32
  which is Azush Path just that big, you know, kind of thing,
• 58:36
  which which there's a there's a point in the event planning
• 58:38
  cycle where it really feels like done, done, done like that,
• 58:41
  right? Then I'm like, OK, but we're
• 58:43
  also in this really complicated bit where there's a lot to
• 58:45
  organize. And so maybe some kind of really
• 58:47
  avant-garde, conceptual jazz thing.
• 58:49
  Most of those songs don't have real titles.
• 58:51
  They're just things in their own right.
• 58:53
  Right. Then Heather mentioned earlier
• 58:56
  on when we were talking, she said about, you know, the the
• 59:00
  biometrics and deepfakes. And I remember there's a
• 59:02
  brilliant Weird Al Yankovic song.
• 59:04
  I think I'm a clone now, which struck me as potentially
• 59:08
  appropriate. Hema had kind of went to Queen.
• 59:11
  You know, the show must go on. But where I landed, where I
• 59:15
  landed was Robbie Williams. Let me entertain you because
• 59:18
  that's really what it's about. That's a good one, Heather.
• 59:20
  You got one I. Do, and it's funny, I think Andy
• 59:23
  and I's thought processes started about the same way and
• 59:26
  then just went spring for me. I I'm choosing Bohemian Rhapsody
• 59:33
  Queen because the sheer level of, of orchestration and
• 59:37
  excitement and complexity and and whatnot that come together
• 59:41
  to make that song just an amazing classic is what I like
• 59:45
  to see out of idenomers. And everybody loves that song.
• 59:48
  I don't know if anybody does not like that.
• 59:50
  If they don't like it, they're probably not my people, so.
• 59:53
  True. And you know what?
• 59:54
  And I, and I'm, I support that as well.
• 59:56
  If you're not a Bohemian Rhapsody fan, also you're
• 59:59
  probably not my people. So I'm with you either.
• 1:00:01
  Jim, what's what's your song of choice?
• 1:00:04
  I'm going to go a little bit further back.
• 1:00:05
  So Beach Boys, I get around and you know, that song goes round,
• 1:00:11
  round get around. I get around and basically those
• 1:00:14
  are the lyrics for almost the entire song.
• 1:00:16
  But there are a couple verses. So I'm going to read you one of
• 1:00:19
  the verses. I'm getting bug driving up and
• 1:00:22
  down the same old strip, you know, Las Vegas Strip.
• 1:00:27
  I got to find a new place where the kids are hip, Itenna versus
• 1:00:31
  where the kids are hip. My buddies and me are getting
• 1:00:34
  real well known. Yeah, the bad guys know us, and
• 1:00:39
  they leave us alone. That's very aspirational, Jim.
• 1:00:44
  I like it you. Know I'm I'm glad you said that
• 1:00:49
  one because a couple things one that's a great song choice 2 I
• 1:00:52
  now have yet another clip of you kind of singing that I can add
• 1:00:55
  to my you know reel of of things that I can use to, you know
• 1:00:59
  slightly embarrass you and but also promote your singing
• 1:01:02
  talent, which is very good by the way I.
• 1:01:04
  Wish we didn't have to worry about strikes because then you
• 1:01:06
  could do like an outro of like the the real version of the song
• 1:01:10
  playing. And people are like, Oh my God,
• 1:01:12
  Jim, you are so bad. But I think everyone knows that
• 1:01:14
  song, almost everyone. And they're probably like, Oh my
• 1:01:17
  God, Jim, you are so bad. Denise's brother was at our
• 1:01:21
  house not that long ago, and he's like, Denise and he were in
• 1:01:27
  the basement and he heard me singing something.
• 1:01:29
  He's like, what's going on? She's like, oh, Jim is singing.
• 1:01:33
  He's like, that's how he sings. So there you go, Jeff, what's
• 1:01:37
  your song? I you know, I took it I can't be
• 1:01:41
  serious about any of these stuff that we typically do in kind of
• 1:01:43
  like our lighter notes. So mine is You can't touch this
• 1:01:45
  by MC Hammer. Yeah, it has a little bit of a,
• 1:01:48
  you know, security, you know, identity Ting to it.
• 1:01:51
  But yeah, you can't touch this. Can't go wrong with that.
• 1:01:54
  Again, great song. And if you don't like that song,
• 1:01:56
  you're probably not one of my people either.
• 1:01:57
  So I'm you can't touch this and Bohemian Rhapsody.
• 1:02:00
  I'm I'm with you on both of those things.
• 1:02:03
  So I think that's a good spot. You know, we'll you know, we'll
• 1:02:08
  think of other songs. I'm sure I'm sure if other
• 1:02:09
  people have their own songs, you know, Hey, let's pick up on, you
• 1:02:12
  know, Jim's challenge to put more comments on the YouTube.
• 1:02:14
  So you know, what are your theme songs for the universe?
• 1:02:17
  Either put it here on YouTube or put on the LinkedIn post, you
• 1:02:19
  know, whenever this goes live, right, Things like that.
• 1:02:20
  So, so this is one of my favorite conferences to attend
• 1:02:24
  of the year. And you know, I will throw in a
• 1:02:25
  plug, right? One of the many sessions that'll
• 1:02:27
  be out there. If you're not in a session, you
• 1:02:28
  know, come see us in the Expo hall floor.
• 1:02:30
  We'll be recording some podcasts, but we're also doing
• 1:02:32
  our majority rules game show. And if you've been fortunate
• 1:02:35
  enough to be part of that, you know how much fun that could be
• 1:02:37
  for the audience. And we'll have some great
• 1:02:39
  prizes, I think, for that as well, too.
• 1:02:41
  So hopefully you come check it out.
• 1:02:42
  I don't know when exactly it's going to take place, but you
• 1:02:45
  know, we'll be there doing that. I want to ask you real quickly,
• 1:02:49
  Heather, because we're kind of running short in time.
• 1:02:51
  You do a lot of work around a lot of conferences.
• 1:02:54
  I think you said something like 40% of your year is like
• 1:02:57
  attending these things. How do you keep track of that
• 1:03:00
  and tell me more? I know how you do because that's
• 1:03:02
  going to set you up for the website that you got on GitHub.
• 1:03:05
  So anyone who knows who's going to laugh about what I'm going to
• 1:03:07
  say, how do I do that? I have a list.
• 1:03:12
  I love lists. Lists are the best thing that
• 1:03:14
  humanity has ever invented. And but this particular list
• 1:03:18
  I've been keeping since 2023. It's actually on GitHub.
• 1:03:22
  One of the community groups that I run in the W3C asked me that
• 1:03:27
  question back in like 2023. Wait, you keep going to these
• 1:03:30
  events and we only just hear about them at the last minute?
• 1:03:33
  Could you, could you write them down?
• 1:03:35
  And thus I started tracking all of the identity and identity
• 1:03:39
  adjacent conferences that I was aware of that were more than,
• 1:03:43
  you know, a day. So they had to be at least two
• 1:03:45
  days and weren't vendor conferences.
• 1:03:47
  So they weren't like the Amazon or the sale point or Octane or
• 1:03:51
  anything like that. They actually, you know, at
• 1:03:52
  least some level of vendor neutrality and two days or more
• 1:03:57
  anywhere in the world. English doesn't have to be the
• 1:03:59
  main spoken language, though. That tends to be what I hear
• 1:04:02
  about. So I have that list and I think
• 1:04:04
  we're going to put it in the show notes.
• 1:04:05
  And I've already started populating 2027.
• 1:04:08
  There's over a dozen conferences listed there for next year
• 1:04:11
  already. There is something in the world
• 1:04:13
  for everybody to attend. I feel like it's such a great
• 1:04:16
  list. I've used it in the past.
• 1:04:17
  Definitely have a link in our show notes.
• 1:04:19
  It's a very long GitHub link. And so I feel like there's an
• 1:04:22
  opportunity to do like a, you know, a short URL something or
• 1:04:25
  anything and just kind of directed at that.
• 1:04:27
  I don't know, that might make it easier.
• 1:04:29
  Maybe put it on, you know, your website for spherical cow or
• 1:04:32
  something like that. I.
• 1:04:32
  Could put it next to. So I have the I have on my
• 1:04:34
  website is the where am I going to speak, which is not the full
• 1:04:37
  list because I can only be in one place at one time.
• 1:04:41
  But I may put the just a a point or two.
• 1:04:44
  OK, but where is the actual full list that I'm aware of so.
• 1:04:47
  With all these conferences, is there like, do you even pick up
• 1:04:50
  like swag items anymore or is it like, I'm not going to grab that
• 1:04:54
  and it will, you know, do something else and like, OK, Or
• 1:04:58
  is there like something you seek out for everything?
• 1:05:00
  OK, so mostly, so I have, I live in a very small house and I have
• 1:05:05
  a rule that something can't come into the house unless I know how
• 1:05:09
  it's getting out of the house. So I have to know how to dispose
• 1:05:12
  of it and I have to know where I'm going to put it.
• 1:05:14
  So I can tell you right now, no more T-shirts.
• 1:05:17
  I have got no room for T-shirts. The T-shirt drawer is full and
• 1:05:20
  we're done. I will potentially bring in
• 1:05:23
  socks because you wear through socks and then you get rid of
• 1:05:25
  them. But I'm, I want them to be
• 1:05:27
  really good socks because I get very cold feet and anything else
• 1:05:31
  like fidget spinners. Why, why does a fidget spinner
• 1:05:33
  exist? I don't know.
• 1:05:34
  I don't need it. I was tempted by some of the
• 1:05:38
  interesting coffee paraphernalia, but otherwise,
• 1:05:43
  Matt it it's it's very much about what do I even have room
• 1:05:47
  for at this point and is it really, really interesting?
• 1:05:49
  Well, it. Has to be somewhat packable too,
• 1:05:51
  right? You can't like.
• 1:05:53
  Well, yes and no. I mean, I'm one of those people
• 1:05:57
  that I actually do always have to check a bag because since
• 1:05:59
  I've got some food allergies, I'm always packing food in.
• 1:06:02
  And if I'm going to pack food in, I may as well pack a bottle
• 1:06:04
  of whiskey or something. So.
• 1:06:06
  So I usually have a checked bag and that's fine.
• 1:06:08
  A. Checked bag just for the
• 1:06:09
  whiskey. I love that that's that's but.
• 1:06:11
  Heather Also, not just whiskey, it's got to be Scotch, right?
• 1:06:14
  Yes, it does have to be Scotch for me.
• 1:06:16
  We. Had this discussion in the past.
• 1:06:19
  Yeah, I'm not a fan of bourbon. Just not.
• 1:06:23
  I'm not. Agreeing with you or anything,
• 1:06:24
  I'm just specifying yes you like a good PT.
• 1:06:29
  Scotch. I, well, no, I'm actually open
• 1:06:32
  minded. I like both peated and not
• 1:06:33
  peated. For me it's more a question of
• 1:06:35
  like when are you drinking it in, in, in the day, 'cause I'm
• 1:06:39
  not going to start a day with peated Scotch.
• 1:06:40
  That's just, that's just a little too, too much.
• 1:06:42
  Not going to have 1/5 of Scotch to start the day at IG.
• 1:06:45
  Universe not. To start the day.
• 1:06:47
  But, you know, ask me at noon on Thursday.
• 1:06:51
  It's Vegas. How do you define start and end?
• 1:06:54
  Right Time is like a meaningless construct in the in the
• 1:06:56
  Constitution of Vegas. That.
• 1:06:58
  So that's fair. But in the context of identity
• 1:07:00
  verse, and especially where we've got mainstage
• 1:07:02
  responsibilities, the start is about two hours before mainstage
• 1:07:06
  opens and the end is when I go to bed at the end of the day.
• 1:07:09
  Andy, do you, are you a sweat guy?
• 1:07:10
  Like, do you pick up stuff? Are there things that like
• 1:07:12
  you're like, yeah, I've seen enough of that?
• 1:07:14
  Or is there something you seek out?
• 1:07:15
  I know socks are popular, Heather.
• 1:07:17
  I get it like that. So the honest answer is no, but
• 1:07:21
  some, some of that is just circumstantial, right?
• 1:07:23
  Like as you say, I've been to enough of these things.
• 1:07:25
  It's like, hey, look, it's another thing to put some liquid
• 1:07:28
  in or another travel adapter that will break after three
• 1:07:31
  days. Or, you know, finding a thing
• 1:07:33
  that that is, that actually genuinely has value over time
• 1:07:36
  and is useful that I don't already have is, is kind of
• 1:07:40
  hard. There's also practical reality
• 1:07:42
  though, too, which is I, particularly at Identiverse, but
• 1:07:45
  actually at most of the other conferences that I go to as
• 1:07:48
  well, I don't get to the show floor very much right.
• 1:07:52
  I'm usually busy doing other stuff and so I usually by the
• 1:07:56
  time I get there, it's the end of the week and all the stuff's
• 1:07:57
  gone anyways. My kids are unimpressed, but
• 1:08:00
  they're also old enough now to, you know, just get over it.
• 1:08:03
  So. I feel like there's an
• 1:08:05
  opportunity here to like, you know, have like some sort of
• 1:08:07
  like little mini shrine of like gifts from vendors or prep room
• 1:08:10
  or something like that for all the people who can't get out
• 1:08:13
  there. It's like, hey, you know, like
• 1:08:14
  that's maybe that maybe it's illegal.
• 1:08:16
  I don't know. I don't want to like get anyone
• 1:08:17
  in trouble, but like, why not? Is that a problem Andy?
• 1:08:23
  Like if I, if I. Just encourage most of people to
• 1:08:26
  do the wrong thing. So I, I, I think no, I'm.
• 1:08:29
  Sure you didn't. I think if it were organized,
• 1:08:32
  then actually it could be a really smart thing.
• 1:08:34
  And I was. The reason I went quiet is I was
• 1:08:36
  making a note to to mention it to somebody because I think it's
• 1:08:40
  a really smart idea. But programmatically, right.
• 1:08:43
  Like I think you want to organize that rather than just
• 1:08:45
  have it kind of grown a style. But yeah, let's make it like,
• 1:08:48
  you know, like the Oscars or the Emmys.
• 1:08:50
  The. Emmys, like where you have like
• 1:08:51
  a gift bag and it's like, instead of like, you know, you
• 1:08:54
  know, perfume and chocolates and like other things, it's like,
• 1:08:57
  oh, here is a discount code for six months of free sass
• 1:09:01
  something or other, right? Yeah, I think that would be kind
• 1:09:04
  of a cool idea. I mean we try and get people to
• 1:09:06
  the speaker ready room at least. Once to review their stuff, we
• 1:09:09
  can have a lovely little altar of things.
• 1:09:13
  Just sort of encourage them. We'll donate a sticker for IDAC,
• 1:09:16
  how about that? Jim, I mean, we've been doing
• 1:09:19
  the stickers for a long time now.
• 1:09:20
  Jeff, I think. Maybe we should update our IDAC
• 1:09:24
  approach to swag. Maybe.
• 1:09:27
  Maybe we need IDC socks. I don't know.
• 1:09:30
  But what I would like to do right is put the challenge out
• 1:09:33
  there for folks to comment on the YouTube video and let us
• 1:09:39
  know what IDAC swag they would like.
• 1:09:43
  Me personally, I usually go for the socks.
• 1:09:46
  I always figure even if I wear them once or twice and throw
• 1:09:48
  them away, which I usually don't, as long as they're
• 1:09:51
  holding up. The thing that I don't really
• 1:09:54
  like is like, you go by a vendor booth and they've got like the
• 1:09:58
  Death Star Lego set and I'm like, oh, I want that so bad.
• 1:10:02
  But you know, it's like I'm not going to buy their product and
• 1:10:06
  like, you know, don't feel appropriate even signing up for
• 1:10:09
  the contest to win that thing. So I'll just let that go and
• 1:10:13
  take the socks. You know, somebody has to pack
• 1:10:15
  up all that stuff. And so the more that the vendors
• 1:10:18
  can give away, the better. You know, there's times where
• 1:10:20
  it's like, OK, well I have like 500 or something, right?
• 1:10:23
  And it's like you gave away maybe 300, but you still have
• 1:10:26
  like 2 boxes full of like stuff. And don't don't ever feel bad
• 1:10:30
  about going to the vendors, you know, check them out whatever,
• 1:10:33
  right that, you know, definitely want to do that, but never feel
• 1:10:35
  bad about grabbing swag because I find a lot of stuff in
• 1:10:39
  dumpsters and in carbage afterwards.
• 1:10:42
  If people don't take it, it sometimes it just goes to waste,
• 1:10:44
  which is a real shame. If you think you're going to put
• 1:10:46
  it at use, go for it. Grab it, grab, grab the 48th,
• 1:10:49
  you know, USB to lightning adapter that we will no longer
• 1:10:52
  need in, you know, three months, you know, for all the people who
• 1:10:55
  switched over, you know that port on their iPhones, you know
• 1:10:57
  that kind of thing. That reminds me of a story.
• 1:11:00
  So the one of the firms. That you and I worked out
• 1:11:02
  together called Identropy. One year Jeff Chang was
• 1:11:06
  responsible for coming up with the swag.
• 1:11:09
  He bought 500 of these. Basically they were like long
• 1:11:13
  term Solo cups. They look like a regular solo
• 1:11:16
  cup, but they could be washing the dishwasher, whatever.
• 1:11:20
  I think we gave away like 3 of them and at the end I was like,
• 1:11:24
  well, what do we do with these other 497 Solo cups?
• 1:11:27
  The guy don't know. I'm not taking them home.
• 1:11:29
  You can throw them out. I can't throw them out.
• 1:11:31
  That's not the way I was raised. So I had them shipped back to my
• 1:11:35
  house, dude. I kept them in my garage.
• 1:11:37
  I probably use like 7 of them eventually like 15 years later
• 1:11:42
  throughout the other 490 Solo cups.
• 1:11:46
  That was a man if you have red. Solo cups, just go to the
• 1:11:49
  nearest, you know, university fraternity and hand them out.
• 1:11:52
  They would love that. They weren't the red, they were
• 1:11:55
  orange, right? Identity Orange, which were
• 1:11:57
  great. They were.
• 1:11:57
  Like very like they're still they.
• 1:11:59
  They would have loved that guarantee.
• 1:12:02
  Yeah, I should have talked to you. 1st but I didn't I was just
• 1:12:05
  had to clear. I had to clean out my garage and
• 1:12:07
  I was like sorry. Guys.
• 1:12:09
  Or it's time to I tried. I had my heart was in the right
• 1:12:13
  place. Then I had to clean my garage
• 1:12:16
  and then, well, you know, and your heart was no longer in the
• 1:12:19
  right. Place it was no longer in the
• 1:12:20
  right. Place.
• 1:12:23
  All right, let's go. Ahead and wrap it up for this
• 1:12:24
  week. I'm looking forward to see you
• 1:12:26
  both here at Identiverse. That's going to be a lot of fun.
• 1:12:29
  And let's see what else? A bunch of links in our show
• 1:12:31
  notes, probably to to collect the Identiverse link, our
• 1:12:34
  discounts, our Linkedins for all of us, the Heather.
• 1:12:39
  Does this have a name other than just like?
• 1:12:44
  Yeah, it's it. But it as you said.
• 1:12:46
  It's a pretty long. Name.
• 1:12:47
  It's the 2027 list of identity and related conferences and
• 1:12:51
  standard development events. OK, we need we need some AI to
• 1:12:55
  help with the. Marketing app, now I have a link
• 1:12:57
  for that in our show notes as well for people to check out.
• 1:12:59
  I use it. Thank you so much for putting it
• 1:13:00
  together. It's very handy for me, you
• 1:13:02
  know, to kind of figure out, OK, like what do we have going on
• 1:13:04
  and what are the ones that I can try to get to and things like
• 1:13:06
  that. But definitely appreciate both
• 1:13:08
  you guys time. We'll go ahead and leave it
• 1:13:10
  there for this week. Thanks everyone for watching and
• 1:13:13
  listening. We'll see you at Identiverse and
• 1:13:15
  talk with you all on the next one.
• 1:13:18
  You've been listening to Identity at the.
• 1:13:20
  Center, we hope you've enjoyed the show.
• 1:13:23
  Make sure to like rate and review and we'll be back soon.
• 1:13:28
  But in the meantime, hit the website at
• 1:13:30
  identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at
• 1:13:36
  the Center.