Latest / Identity at the Center / #223 - CIAM with Cassio Sampaio of Okta

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#223 - CIAM with Cassio Sampaio of Okta · Identity at the Center

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  This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
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  am, This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and
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  Jeff Steadman. Welcome to the Identity of the
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  Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
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  Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
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  Not so bad yourself. Good.
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  Hey, I had an idea today. I wanted to show you one of the
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  items. I'm not sure.
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  Have you ever noticed this in my office?
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  No, it's. It looks like just a.
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  Little like glass something or other.
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  I'm clearly something's etched on it.
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  But no, I can't read that and I've never been in your office
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  so I don't know what it what it would be.
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  It's an award. It's the Oracle Magazine
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  Editor's Choice Award presented to Jim McDonald for 2006
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  Security Architect of the Year. And that may.
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  So it's got significance for a couple reasons.
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  One is it's probably the last time I was called a security
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  architect and the first time it should have said customer of the
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  year because they implemented their customer identity and
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  access management solution. But it got me thinking about
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  like Okay that was 20 years ago, that was my first identity and
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  access management project and I was on the CI AM side of the
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  house. First off, most people had not
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  heard of I am much less customer I am, but I learned so much
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  about you know the business and kind of going through some of
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  these use cases that First off I didn't even know I am was the
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  thing myself, right. It was like 2003 and you know
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  then we're like okay, where are users coming from?
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  Well, they should all be in the CRM system.
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  You go to the CRM system, you find out that's not where they
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  all are and there's definitely no passwords there and okay.
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  So anyway, I just thought that was was kind of cool given what
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  we're going to be talking about today was like that was actually
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  my origin was on the CIM side. I think a lot of people do the
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  reverse. They start on the in house I M
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  side and then you know wind up having some customer I M
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  experiences and I kind of went the other way around.
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  I can get behind that. I feel like there's like most
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  people fell into identity. Like they didn't really, like,
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  go out and seek it. It was just kind of like, oh, I
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  guess I'm an identity person. It just happened overnight.
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  And yeah, I would say most people probably got started with
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  workforce. That makes sense to me.
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  I mean, I'm thinking about like, ooh, this is a major word.
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  Did you get like a is it just the, the little crystal thing?
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  Did you get like, a leg lamp or something you could put in your
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  front, in your front window and show off to all the neighbors?
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  I think it's something that was Fragila, but it was not the leg
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  lamp that I got a another plaque with the picture of.
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  Like basically I took a full page in the Oracle magazine.
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  This was like one of their 2006 issues.
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  I got a full page and they put that in a plaque.
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  Very nice. That was pretty much it.
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  And I got a picture. They actually sent a
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  photographer out to one of. I was working for a company
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  called Ingersoll Rand at the time and they sent a
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  photographer out to one of our factories.
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  So I stood in the factory and got a picture taken.
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  As if you were actually on the factory floor.
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  Like here's Jim McDonald, he's building customer identity and
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  access management have like a hard head on or something like
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  that. I did not have a hard head on,
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  but that would have been a great idea.
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  I was having a good hair day that day, so I think we just
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  went with the hair. Well, that's the most important
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  thing, right? Got to look good for those,
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  those press photos. Yes, exactly.
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  Well, hey, one more thing before we move on, here's one of the
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  other things I have. I'm sure you recognize this.
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  This was our, we call it like that the the door stand for the
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  Identiverse conference where we had the Identity to Center
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  podcast and I've somehow got this thing home.
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  Yeah. I have no idea how you got that
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  home. I have no idea how I got it
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  home, but the funny part was I got it from Las Vegas to
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  Atlanta. And when I was on the kind of
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  the last leg of it, I was in the They have like a subway in
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  Atlanta that gets you from terminal to terminal and please
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  hang on to something you could go flying.
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  So, you know, when you get to each stop, kind of like
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  everybody like, gets shifted to the side and somebody got
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  shifted right. I I could tell she wasn't
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  holding on onto a bar. I was like, she's going to fall
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  into me and bend my sign. I just know it.
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  And she bent back, but she didn't bend the sign, so the
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  sign made it. And you know, I think the
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  significance of this is like each conference seems to be
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  getting better and better. I'm really stoked about what's
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  going to happen at the Authenticate conference because
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  I know we've been talking it up. I'd like to talk it up again.
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  You know, the plan is that we're going to be part of the keynote
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  in the morning, the 1st morning and we're going to do some
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  version of the Identity at the Center podcast.
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  It's definitely first for you and I.
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  What do you think? Yeah, I think we're still trying
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  to figure it out. So timing may vary, time slot
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  very. But yeah, the idea is it will be
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  on stage at the Authenticate Conference, it's October 16th
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  through the 18th. It's in Carlsbad, CA, which is
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  just north of San Diego. It's on a golf course, very
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  nice. So yeah, I think we're still
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  kind of figure out what that would look like.
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  I mean if. I'd love to take ideas, right If
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  there's if there's ideas for people who are either going to
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  be at Authenticate because they're using our discount code.
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  Yep, we got a discount code 15% off ID AC15 podcast.
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  If you use that, you get 15% off the registration.
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  It's not going to help your golf game, but at least you'll be
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  able to be there and be part of the Identity conversations.
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  But I'd love to hear ideas as we kind of start to put this
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  together with the Authenticate team of kind of like, you know,
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  what's the what are the topics, what's the approach.
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  You know, how can we kind of, you know, make this the the best
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  experience that we can for for people who are there?
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  Yeah, I can't wait. I mean, you know, every time
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  I've been in San Diego, the weather's been just absolutely
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  gorgeous and I'm expecting no less.
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  Yeah, well, it's it's San Diego. It's pretty, pretty nice all the
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  time. I used to go to the to the
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  Catalyst Conference in San Diego and the only reason I went is
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  because it was in San Diego. It was.
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  Right, right there, right there. On the Ocean, it was like
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  perfect. So yeah, location matters,
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  that's for sure. I like Seattle.
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  I like Carlsbad too. So I'm excited about that.
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  You started off the conversation kind of talking about customer
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  identity and access management and we're going to talk about
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  that type of identity and access Management Today.
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  I'm going to be a little bit nebulous.
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  I'm going to call it CI AM. Because I'm not sure what the C
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  even stands for at this point, there's a lot of different
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  definitions for it, but we brought in an expert.
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  His name is Cassio Simpaio. He runs product for customer
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  identity at Octa, so maybe that's a hint there of what he
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  thinks of when it calls it CIM. But welcome to the show, Cassio.
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  Hi Giraffe, it's great to be here.
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  Yeah. Thanks for joining us and taking
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  time out. I know we're kind of at the end
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  of our days as I kicked down the 4th wall a little bit.
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  I've been on the phone all day. I'm sure you have it as well.
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  So we're going to talk about customer identity and access
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  management or maybe there's a different definition for that C
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  But before we get started, it's the first time on the show.
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  The ritual here is that we like to learn more about people's
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  identity backgrounds when they're first on with us.
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  So can you kind of tell us how did you get into the identity
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  space? Is it something that you chose
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  or did it choose you? Yeah.
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  I think like most product people, I guess if you started a
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  couple decades back, you ended up following a path like not
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  that you have chosen, but you've been naturally ended up
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  somewhere in there. My first going back, I'm going
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  to date myself, like now I'm going to be working things
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  related to identity, customer identity for the most part for
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  for a long time, my first project back in the days when
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  dial up. Access to the Internet, like US
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  robotics modems, all of that good stuff.
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  So I helped to build what was the first large scale dialup
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  free Internet service provider in Brazil and that was all about
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  RADIUS, Open LDAP and all of that really, really like what
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  people look at ancient like technology today.
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  That's got me into the identity space from that point.
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  I always being around at either like in network security or like
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  something that is related to how do you give permissions
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  authorization to different constituencies like in access
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  networks and things like that. So now you're running products
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  for customer identity. That can certainly be taken a
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  lot of different ways. I will keep it on the up and up.
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  So the Mackenzie who is listening silently in the
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  background does not get in trouble or get me in trouble or
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  you in trouble what is? Well, I guess tell me what that
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  means. Like what's your daytoday
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  overseeing and identity product running, you know, running
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  customer identity, you kind of just help people understand kind
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  of like what what, what you actually do in the real world?
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  Yeah. One of the one of the
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  fascinating aspects of customer identity in in particular is
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  that the number of users that you have or the buyers that have
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  for that technology, they can come from pretty much any part
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  of the organizations, right could be.
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  In the marketing org, it could be the product team, it could be
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  the application building, it could be IT managers, or it
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  could be the founder of a startup company that is running
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  like a bunch of different, like a different things at the same
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  time. So that diversity of
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  perspectives that you have on a on a job like mine, it's great.
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  It's fascinating because you for once you have to understand the
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  entire spectrum. Of needs that your customers
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  have because we may be meeting folks from very different parts
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  of the of the organization. And then as a product person,
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  it's all about multitasking and unblocking people to you're
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  making decisions like every time you open your mouth, right.
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  So you have to get. Accustomed to that notion that
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  people need you to unblock them. Either someone in sales that
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  wants like a specific capability, is that in the
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  product roadmap or not? Someone on your team that wants
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  to decide, do I need to do research on this specific
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  capability, the specific market need.
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  So it's very like diverse, lots of multitasking, lots of calls,
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  as you were saying, a little bit like earlier today, but never a
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  dull moment. How do you manage demand from,
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  you know, customers? Because I'm sure?
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  If they're like me, they got 1000 great ideas that they think
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  is really a great idea, but maybe it isn't the best
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  strategic use of time or something like that.
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  I don't want you to name and shame or anything.
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  It's nothing like that. But I'm just curious.
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  I'm sure you get lots of feedback, right?
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  Stock is a very big company and I think you came over as part of
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  like the Off 0, which is another big company, right?
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  People always have good ideas. How do you sift through what
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  you're getting and say, yeah, that that's something we want to
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  pursue is that? Help me, you know, understand
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  that kind of mindset. Oh yeah, there's there's a lot
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  to that. I think fundamentally first you
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  have to have conviction, you have to establish like what you
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  March, what is your North Star and and that's the first, so the
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  first question that you asked like because to your point,
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  you're going to have a lot of, you have the large enterprise
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  like customer, they'll have a laundry list of potential asks.
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  And in our business in particular, we have a very
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  healthy product led growth. So like there's a self-serve
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  component to our business where users can sign up and get like a
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  free account or a relatively small dollar amount account and
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  also start to use the product. So how do you bring feedback
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  from all of these different like sources, align them to your
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  North Star and be? Very deliberate about saying no
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  because a lot of ideas may be great, but the days that satisfy
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  the majority of your market needs because not like your
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  customers are going to bring up an idea that doesn't make like
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  any sense, like it makes sense, but otherwise don't be asking
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  like for but does that aligns your vision and does he help to
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  move like the needle for like a large percentage of your stall
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  base? I think that Lance is very,
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  very, very important. So let's talk a little bit about
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  the acronym CI AM. Obviously the C well let's start
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  with the obvious. The obvious is identity and
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  access management. I am the C I'm not so sure on
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  because I hear customer, I hear consumer, I hear constituent,
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  civic citizen. There's probably a bunch of
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  other C words that I haven't, you know kind of come up with.
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  But what I guess how do you define ACM?
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  Is it customer identity because that's you know how it kind of
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  introduced you but. Maybe it's something that flexes
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  in between based on who you're talking to?
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  Or do you have a different take on it?
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  Yeah, there's a lot of different ways to, I guess, to outline
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  with the umbrella. It's an umbrella of use cases
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  that fall under that category and a lot of things in life.
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  Sometimes it's easier to. Define it by sort of like
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  negating like what it's not and do typically say always all
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  types of identities that are not your employee like the people
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  that are on your payroll, the people that have a directly
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  employment relationship with that but they'll be too narrow
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  of a definition. So the way that that I see
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  customer identity you essentially you essentially
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  helping people that are building applications websites they're
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  building some type of technology.
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  That has a need to handle like different individuals that have
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  a customer relationship like with you.
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  That customer relationship could be the point that you made when
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  I say that customer in terms of purchasing goods because it
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  could be a citizen like 2, right.
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  But they do have the relationship that they are
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  coming in order to access a service, consumer service
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  purchase goods. So that would fall under that
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  notion that construct of. Roughly what we call consumer
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  apps like in in, in Octa terminology.
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  But you also have the other part that is actually more complex
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  and potentially much more interesting from the technology
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  point of view, which is this B to B to something, right.
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  It could be a business to business to an employee or
• 14:37
  business to business to a consumer or even to a citizen in
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  there. So in that case, the customer A
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  is a hierarchical problem. Right.
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  So for example, log after we will sell the technology to a
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  customer that could be a SAS company and then that SAS
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  company serving their whole consumers or they may be serving
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  other like business customers, so that in turn serve other
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  consumers or employees. So all of that falls under this
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  spectrum, this umbrella of our customer identity.
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  So as you can see like it's not quite well defined as workforce
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  on employee identity, which is you can like touch it right and
• 15:12
  feel it. That's very, very concrete.
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  Yeah, I feel like the other XI so suggested obviously the the I
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  am we get that as Identity Access Management.
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  But when I think you when you tag the C on the beginning of
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  it, it also brings into question what is the I, what is the
• 15:34
  identity and how are you managing that.
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  So I think you brought up a great point about the B to B to
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  X or even just. B to B.
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  But like to me, when I, when I look at most CIM solutions in
• 15:52
  the marketplace today, they're optimized for B to C, right?
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  They, they have the authentication, they have the
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  workflows for registration, manage my profile, kind of
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  things like that. When it gets into the B to B,
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  you know the world organizations have.
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  All solve this problem over time.
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  They built custom applications to manage the eye to access.
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  You know, to allow companies to get access right.
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  When you have like 100,000 users, centralized
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  administration breaks down. You have to have some way that
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  you can turn that over to the user.
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  If you're in the B to B scenario, it's usually through
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  some kind of delegated administration process.
• 16:40
  And what I. Hear a lot of people, I am
• 16:46
  practitioners asking me is OK, who has the solution to solve
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  these problems? And what I tend to find is that
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  most organizations are kind of rolling their own solution for
• 16:59
  this, right? So they build a solution like an
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  identity side. Then they pass that data into,
• 17:07
  let's call it data store. But the access management side,
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  they're using a product for nobody's building their own
• 17:15
  access management tool anymore. But I still think the majority
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  of organizations out there who are in the B2B realm, at least
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  not in like ecommerce maybe, but maybe even in ecommerce, they're
• 17:28
  building at least the front end, building a lot of the business
• 17:31
  logic for the identity management side.
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  I wanted to throw that back to you because I think that is an
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  interesting nuance that. I think that that sea, What is
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  the sea? It's a great question, but I
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  think when you throw that sea there, the eye is now a
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  different picture, much different than the workforce.
• 17:51
  Yeah, 100%. I think the one of the things
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  that we that we see a lot exactly what you described the
• 17:59
  when you building if you think of yourself as like a classic
• 18:02
  sass company, you sell it to a lot of other businesses, are you
• 18:06
  growing fast? Typically when you start start
• 18:10
  your company you don't think of like okay let me go and build
• 18:13
  like bring an identity product to solve that problem.
• 18:16
  For me, you think of that as just a feature of your user
• 18:20
  management capability. You don't really like think of
• 18:22
  just like you would about like a CRM or some other more
• 18:25
  established technology that you know you're not going to build,
• 18:28
  you're going to buy from day one.
• 18:31
  And that's and that's what we what we are seeing is at the end
• 18:35
  of the day the eye. You still need the eye
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  capabilities, right, The ability to allow if you have B2B2C like
• 18:41
  organization like your customer, customer like needs, the sign up
• 18:45
  flow to be frictionalized in all the properties of our consumer
• 18:49
  app in there. But introducing this layer like
• 18:52
  now where you have potentially 10s of thousands of customers
• 18:56
  and they all have the unique configurations in there and each
• 18:59
  one of those 10,000 customers in turn may have 10,000 consumers
• 19:02
  like of their own. So it becomes a much more
• 19:04
  complex hierarchical problem like that.
• 19:07
  So I doctor we call that like the so we call enterprise
• 19:09
  readiness which is a term that's being used like loosely in the
• 19:12
  industry like around that notion.
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  But that's that's sort of the idea is that you'll become
• 19:18
  enterprise ready when you are capable of managing like that
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  number of business customers and their customer needs in turn.
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  Yeah, I was kind of thinking of, I was kind of thinking of like,
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  you know, back in the day, what the.
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  The C AM world looked like was on the access management side.
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  You have your tools to authenticate somebody or
• 19:39
  authorize somebody. The data would be optimized in
• 19:44
  an LDAP directory, but when you had to manage the users, it was
• 19:48
  very much a relational problem. It was I, Jim McDonald, belonged
• 19:53
  to the Organization Identity at Center podcast.
• 19:57
  Identity at the center may have the contract with your
• 20:00
  organization that allows Jim McDonald to access certain
• 20:04
  content or sell certain products or conduct certain, you know
• 20:10
  activities on your website. So that relation between Jim and
• 20:15
  Identity at the center podcast, you know, we might move the data
• 20:20
  necessary into a directory. But we're we're solving A
• 20:27
  relational problem, right? Especially when it comes to B to
• 20:29
  C it's not, hey, Jim McDonald's coming in here.
• 20:32
  It's Jim McDonald only makes sense to your organization
• 20:36
  because he's a member, he's associated with one of your
• 20:40
  customers. So that was my thought there.
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  I I also wanted to just throw something out because I think
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  this is something I hear a lot is people, a lot of people and I
• 20:50
  do it myself sometimes. So I'm not being critical.
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  But use the terms internal I am versus external I am.
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  And I think that everybody should just try to remove that
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  from their vernacular and from their vocabulary because you
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  know internal I am kind of has this for me has this connotation
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  that it's the people that work there, the the to me the proper
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  terminology would be workforce I am.
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  A lot of times though people are talking about internal I am
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  meaning. Okay, it's our internal systems,
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  the systems within our enclave of whatever that means versus
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  like external. I M is the systems that are
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  outside of our enclave not really talking about customers.
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  And then you also have those scenarios where you have
• 21:38
  applications where internal and external people have access.
• 21:41
  So I I don't know if you run into the that description a lot,
• 21:45
  but I find it just very confusing.
• 21:48
  Yeah, I think the last part of what you mentioned there is the
• 21:51
  one that makes this problem. It's from very interesting
• 21:55
  there, there are lots of apps that are out there like that
• 21:58
  could be accessed by someone from outside of your the four
• 22:03
  walls of the organization right like or like an employee could
• 22:07
  be using the same application like to like happens a lot in
• 22:10
  financial like in financial services like while you may be
• 22:14
  making an application on behalf like of someone while you have.
• 22:18
  Point in that engagement like where both parties are going to
• 22:21
  be working on the same product like to approve of certain
• 22:25
  mortgage application or something to to that effect.
• 22:27
  And then in that case it becomes a hybrid like you know says the
• 22:31
  same resource of the same application and now you have
• 22:35
  individuals from within and outside of the organization
• 22:38
  trying to to get access to and they're very credible problems
• 22:40
  like to so so while. You could think of those
• 22:44
  problems as very sort of separate, as like a wall in
• 22:46
  between external and internal. There are places like
• 22:49
  increasingly like where this problem converged for sure.
• 22:54
  You know, I'm listening to this conversation go back and forth
• 22:56
  and and I was going to ask a really stupid question, you
• 23:00
  know, why? Why is CIM important in today's
• 23:04
  digital landscape? That's literally what I had
• 23:06
  written. And I'm not thinking.
• 23:08
  It's like, how the heck do you even create anything without an
• 23:11
  identity component? I mean how would people even
• 23:13
  consume it doesn't matter if it's internal, external,
• 23:16
  customer, workforce, enterprise, consumer, whatever it may be.
• 23:19
  I guess you know I know it's important.
• 23:22
  I think it makes sense obviously to talk about that.
• 23:25
  What I would like to understand a little bit more is are there
• 23:28
  differences between A to use, to butcher Jim's thing of internal,
• 23:34
  external. I do the same thing.
• 23:35
  I was like okay, no, no, no, I got to get out of that too.
• 23:37
  It's workforce or is enterprise I am versus.
• 23:41
  You know non workforce or customer, but what are some of
• 23:45
  the differences between that workforce identity and access
• 23:49
  management versus the non workforce identity and access
• 23:53
  management? Yeah, the it's interesting we
• 23:56
  talk a lot about this with like with folks because the
• 24:00
  technology sort of the supporting bits of the
• 24:02
  technology can argue they are very similar.
• 24:05
  Like registering Someone Like You if you go really into the
• 24:09
  technology using like Open ID Connect, like some of the
• 24:12
  technology may be similar but when you think of the use case
• 24:16
  they are solving, they are like completely orthogonal like to
• 24:18
  each other. And I think the best way to can
• 24:21
  I think about the distinction there is that in workforce
• 24:25
  identity you have like this like birthrights like you are you're
• 24:30
  provisioned into the directory as Jim.
• 24:33
  Like was alluding to, So you hired someone, has vetted you as
• 24:37
  an employee at the organization like you when you're born, and
• 24:40
  that director does a whole bunch of things that you have access
• 24:43
  to and there's a policy as an employee, I don't get to choose
• 24:48
  what is the authentication mechanism going to use to use my
• 24:52
  resources. Like in order to work I have to
• 24:55
  install certain things like on my on my laptop or use a
• 24:58
  specific type of like Access software, MFA, etcetera.
• 25:03
  None of that applies in in customer identity, Customer
• 25:06
  identity. The best way to think about, I
• 25:08
  think that's about choice. You want to allow these external
• 25:13
  entities as Jim, like we use the terminology like to become like
• 25:17
  to create a relationship with you as a brand like as a
• 25:21
  consumer company or as anything in that space.
• 25:24
  And you have to make it simpler like not too simple, like was
• 25:28
  simple enough for that to not be a barrier.
• 25:31
  Like when you think of customer identity, the terms that we've
• 25:33
  been trying to use to to focus to understand it's about
• 25:38
  conversion is about retentions, about loyalty, right.
• 25:42
  None of these things apply like an employee, sure, you would
• 25:44
  love your employees to be loyal to you, but it's a different
• 25:46
  type of loyalty, right Then then a consumer coming back for more
• 25:50
  like repeating like repeat purchases, the personalization
• 25:54
  of the consumer experience, all of those things are really what
• 25:57
  the essence of CIA and speaks to.
• 26:00
  You know Casio, Jeff and I have been having a lot of
• 26:03
  conversations lately about kind of some of the foundational
• 26:08
  authentication standards and authorization standards in our
• 26:13
  industry, the Open ID Connect, Oauth, SAML.
• 26:19
  It seems like to me they've they've kind of taken the day.
• 26:23
  I'd like to hear what you have to say and like the importance
• 26:26
  of those standards, where they fall short and things like that.
• 26:30
  But I also think that, you know, I guess we've all seen this over
• 26:34
  our career. The need to support backward,
• 26:39
  our be backward compatible to support old forms of
• 26:44
  authentication like header based authentication, those things are
• 26:48
  really dying away. You know, it used to be like, oh
• 26:52
  this was something that you'd have to bridge past to get a new
• 26:57
  technology in the door. And I'm seeing a lot of clients
• 27:01
  now that don't even have that legacy footprint anymore.
• 27:04
  They've actually solved for that.
• 27:06
  You know, maybe in their the last generation of when they
• 27:09
  went after this problem, are you seeing the same thing or do you
• 27:13
  keep running into having to solve that problem?
• 27:16
  And so first question was around the standards and you know how
• 27:20
  much of A game changer do you think they are?
• 27:23
  Where do they potentially fall short but then you know with the
• 27:26
  legacy. Piece which I think is so much
• 27:29
  less important now. Yeah.
• 27:31
  No, I think, yeah, starting starting with the standards, I
• 27:34
  mean if you think of customer of customer identity like in, in
• 27:39
  particular, I mean office sort of king, right, like in like in
• 27:44
  like in in that space and I would say that's primarily the
• 27:51
  majority of. Customers that we see like out
• 27:55
  there, prospects of folks that are migrating or adopting that
• 27:58
  for the first time it does most of the job.
• 28:01
  It does most like of the of the work if you bring the, if you
• 28:05
  think of how much some of these capabilities like called social
• 28:10
  login right, you can't like log in with your Facebook account or
• 28:14
  your Google or Apple, etc. It's all based on this, on these
• 28:19
  standards and it works really well.
• 28:22
  Right. And you can extend that to other
• 28:24
  non less known social providers like if you can have custom
• 28:29
  ones, if it does a really good job of that.
• 28:32
  Sometimes the standards would, I don't say overreach, but they
• 28:37
  will go in specific directions that don't end up with
• 28:41
  incredible adoption. You could argue that some of the
• 28:43
  fappy the financial API like standards like fall on that
• 28:47
  category. In parts of the world that are
• 28:49
  very regulated like the European Union for example, there's no
• 28:52
  choice or some of the implementation is top down
• 28:54
  mandated by by regulators. But in other parts of the world
• 28:57
  the adoptions being lukewarm because regulators haven't like
• 29:01
  pushed that that down and you're still able to achieve a lot of
• 29:04
  the same capabilities like using non standard components and then
• 29:09
  you could go into the whole verifiable credentials like
• 29:12
  world that is also different standards like competing like
• 29:15
  for who's going to be the de facto.
• 29:18
  Like standard like if you were on that front but yeah that's
• 29:22
  that's on like on like on that. And then the second part of your
• 29:26
  question I think it's if you think of I think that the the
• 29:31
  difference between do I as as a company do I have a lot of
• 29:34
  legacy like if I'm up 30, forty 5000 year old organization in
• 29:40
  there and with some a lot of on premises capabilities etcetera
• 29:45
  then these things are. They die really hard, right,
• 29:49
  like they we've been talking about.
• 29:53
  I don't know I mentioned the beginning of the conversation
• 29:55
  Radius. I would like Radius to be
• 29:58
  something that is in the in history in the past like still
• 30:01
  so many places out there. So we still see it a lot they're
• 30:06
  being said though because of this incredible growth that we
• 30:11
  that that happened over the past 20 years around software as a
• 30:14
  service SAS companies. Arguably become the largest tech
• 30:19
  companies in the world over the past 20 years.
• 30:21
  They are new organizations, right, newer if you will.
• 30:25
  So they were build a lot of, they were building the cloud
• 30:27
  only and we build our app in the cloud only.
• 30:30
  Some of those principles like just don't translate, you don't
• 30:32
  have those like those challenges.
• 30:35
  So we're seeing overtime more of the sort of former type of
• 30:38
  companies are becoming more of the norm versus the more
• 30:40
  traditional organizations. Well, you can't deny that those
• 30:44
  problems still exist. There's loads of header based
• 30:47
  authentication like out there for sure.
• 30:49
  Yeah, it's interesting that you brought up the whole login with
• 30:54
  your Google login with. I don't see Facebook as much
• 30:58
  anymore. It's like Google, Apple or
• 31:02
  Microsoft. And to me it's just like, man,
• 31:06
  when I see that for something that I have that lower level of
• 31:10
  affiliation with. I want to use that, right?
• 31:14
  I wouldn't want to use that for my banking because I do feel
• 31:17
  like the more decentralized that authentication process is
• 31:24
  there's a potential for, you know, hijacking my account.
• 31:30
  But put that aside it I think that if I'm going to want to go
• 31:34
  and buy, you know, a Yeti cup or something like that, I don't
• 31:38
  want to create an account if I don't have to.
• 31:41
  I want to, you know, be able to leverage the account, one of the
• 31:45
  accounts that I already have to do that.
• 31:47
  But if I'm talking about doing my banking and the bank wants me
• 31:51
  to create an account and a multifactor authentication and
• 31:53
  all of those things, I don't mind doing that and I will do
• 31:56
  that. But I wanted to ask you a
• 31:59
  question like hopefully this is an OK question for you, right,
• 32:03
  because this is we typically don't want the Identity Center
• 32:08
  podcast to be. Like an infomercial, but what I
• 32:12
  wanted to do is ask about like Okay with Octa and Auth 0 coming
• 32:15
  together, you've got Employee Workforce Cloud and Customer
• 32:22
  Cloud, right? And so even the Workforce Cloud,
• 32:25
  like I think there was a time where Octa and Auth 0 would
• 32:29
  compete in this space where you'd have, you know, basically
• 32:38
  similar functionality. But I, you know, I think now
• 32:42
  Octa said all right, all zero is the customer cloud.
• 32:45
  So if you're doing CI AM, it's this customer cloud which used
• 32:51
  to be all zero, but there's still this offering within Octa
• 32:54
  to do the same or similar things.
• 32:58
  And I feel like, but the approach is different, right?
• 33:01
  The customer cloud is more like the developer first approach.
• 33:08
  Versus Octa is more like the engineering type of approach is
• 33:14
  do I have that right? It has a lot, it's a lot to
• 33:17
  unpack here. We made his, we made this
• 33:20
  announcement last year, mid year, I think around during
• 33:25
  summertime last year like where the technology that's the
• 33:29
  challenge that came from the Alzer acquisition became what we
• 33:31
  call customer identity cloud and the technology that's like was
• 33:35
  the preacquisition. As a workforce identity cloud
• 33:39
  and the workforce Identity Cloud has a number of use cases that
• 33:42
  have partners and supply chain related use cases.
• 33:48
  If you think about it right like you may have partners that
• 33:51
  supply or that consume like services like in a classic B2B
• 33:57
  system which is what that workforce pillar is about.
• 34:00
  And the customer identity serves the two problems that I that we
• 34:03
  talked a little bit about earlier, the consumer problem in
• 34:05
  the SAS. And the SAS problem and if you
• 34:08
  think of the code that those two problems in customer identity,
• 34:11
  there is always an app being built, right.
• 34:14
  We, we talked a lot about this when we are leading to to making
• 34:19
  this, this announcement and talking to industry analysts,
• 34:22
  that's this idea that you build customer identity.
• 34:27
  If you're building customer identity, there is an app or a
• 34:29
  website like in there I was used to say apps don't write
• 34:33
  themselves. Since your chat, GPD came about.
• 34:35
  Now they do but like different conversation.
• 34:38
  But if there's an app being built, there's a customer that
• 34:41
  experience being created, you have a development team, you may
• 34:43
  not have them in on your payroll, they may be working for
• 34:47
  you via an agency, via like a developer, a development shop of
• 34:50
  sorts. But there was always an app,
• 34:52
  which is why we saw like the D angle that you're providing
• 34:55
  something that helps application building teams succeed was the
• 34:59
  right angle and that's why the team started at 0.
• 35:04
  Like not Nearly like a decade ago was like to help application
• 35:07
  teams build identity into their technology.
• 35:10
  Can we talk a little bit about apps writing themselves?
• 35:14
  Because I feel like this is a natural segue for me to get into
• 35:17
  the a I at the center portion of the podcast.
• 35:21
  You can't. We really can't have a
• 35:23
  conversation about identity without talking about artificial
• 35:26
  intelligence, machine learning. I feel like these are things
• 35:31
  that have been around for a little bit a while on the on the
• 35:35
  the customer consumer side because of things like fraud
• 35:38
  risk detection, things like that which I feel like falls more on
• 35:42
  the ML side of things. It's pattern matching and I
• 35:46
  don't know if you feel the same, but I've been saying this for a
• 35:48
  while now. I feel like my definition of a I
• 35:50
  changed at the end of 2022 end of last year when this thing,
• 35:56
  this weird thing called ChatGPT came out and.
• 35:59
  I started to understand what a large language model is and now
• 36:03
  everyone seems to have like, you know, this is sort of like in
• 36:06
  their plans what what is the role of AI when it comes to CIM?
• 36:13
  Because I feel like it's going to evolve beyond just pattern
• 36:16
  matching and doing fraud and risk things.
• 36:19
  Help me understand like where your head, where your head is at
• 36:21
  when it comes to that. I think that's you. 2 aspects to
• 36:27
  to that and and 1st I think I'm on the same camp as you in
• 36:30
  there. I think before large language
• 36:33
  models became popular through what all the work that open A I
• 36:37
  did in there like a I is being limited to this world of like
• 36:43
  very sophisticated pattern matching like models which I
• 36:46
  mean we we use a whole bunch of data about detection some of our
• 36:50
  capabilities. And everyone else like does like
• 36:54
  similar like similarly but I think what's happening with
• 36:59
  generative A I a large language models what I use those two
• 37:02
  terms interchangeably and probably is going to annoy the A
• 37:05
  I listeners like in here but I'm sorry yeah first is the
• 37:13
  sophistication of attacks like the now attackers now have
• 37:17
  access to incredible technology. Like think of how much more, how
• 37:22
  much more sophisticated some of this fishing attacks like are
• 37:25
  becoming. I can tailor something very
• 37:29
  nicely like to my targets like right now and have that really
• 37:32
  perfectly written. It's in the past sort of the
• 37:35
  classic I inherited $100 million like someone from Nigeria, like
• 37:39
  the pink zoo in there that was going to read in perfect like
• 37:42
  written. Whatever language that is
• 37:45
  Spanish, English, Portuguese like or or anything like right
• 37:47
  now you have that capability like in there like to but you
• 37:51
  also have like some something that's being in the news, the
• 37:55
  ability to solve capture like in a cost has dropped again right
• 38:00
  like you can pay for like to the the farm to farm capture
• 38:03
  resolution like by probably like a 10th of what it was prior to
• 38:07
  some of these technologies coming about.
• 38:09
  So what we see is. For, for for customer identity
• 38:13
  in particular, the world has to move like onto and be prepared
• 38:18
  to deal like with that. New is the same surface area,
• 38:21
  but potentially the costs like over for attackers have have
• 38:25
  dropped significantly. So there's a lot of
• 38:27
  experimentation. We have some of ours like
• 38:29
  internally too and how do we use some generative in the eye in
• 38:33
  terms of providing challenges that only humans like can solve.
• 38:37
  Without going back to some of this atrociously hard captures
• 38:40
  like from the past that they were very entertaining if you're
• 38:43
  really into solving captures, but they are not great if you're
• 38:46
  just trying to get something shipped to your home, right?
• 38:50
  So that's for sure an area like that side everyone is looking
• 38:53
  like an investigating, but I think that part that's super
• 38:55
  exciting is if you think of some the journey of someone building
• 39:01
  and managing a customer identity application you.
• 39:06
  You have an app and you want to add like log in, sign up the
• 39:11
  basic flows right. Personalization, progressive
• 39:15
  profiling, all things that really make for app to be really
• 39:17
  rich. You'll be great when you are
• 39:20
  able to instead of having to build that yourself.
• 39:23
  You have a conversation like with your software because you
• 39:26
  just mentioned a I can write code like for you.
• 39:29
  So you can actually do integration like for your code
• 39:32
  we've been we have a service component without.
• 39:35
  Sort of like going to the details, we have a serverless
• 39:38
  component like in all Zero and Customer Identity Cloud.
• 39:41
  That's essentially a place for it to write very custom code if
• 39:44
  you want. I've been playing around or
• 39:46
  using generative AI to help us like to help our users like
• 39:50
  develop like that code integrated with third parties
• 39:53
  and it works really well. So that's definitely going to
• 39:57
  make its way into like how how we think of of our future.
• 40:02
  But imagine a world where I'm building my app and I.
• 40:06
  The AI asks me back. It's like what, what, what are
• 40:09
  you going to be your users like, like what are your consumers
• 40:11
  like? Then the Apprex and the system
• 40:13
  can react, say, oh, you know what, No, no, no, you're wrong.
• 40:15
  Actually look into your data and the majority of your customers
• 40:18
  are on mobile, they are not on web and they have this type of
• 40:22
  device characteristic. They'll be a great candidate for
• 40:24
  passkey as a signin like capability.
• 40:28
  So I think that's where the customer identity world is going
• 40:30
  to is going to move. I will allow it to build and
• 40:33
  iterate on your apps like much more like much faster.
• 40:36
  It's. Funny to mention that, because I
• 40:38
  feel like that is where I've been seeing kind of the most
• 40:41
  promise for AI for products is, I don't know, a better wizard
• 40:46
  interface, a better Clippy, the Microsoft terms, right?
• 40:49
  It's like Clippy on steroids, where you know, it actually can
• 40:52
  do some things and infer things with what you're trying to do
• 40:57
  from an intent perspective. We got a long ways to go.
• 41:00
  I mean, I'm a huge fan of A I and the promise of it.
• 41:04
  Certainly we've got to be careful about how it gets used.
• 41:07
  And can you trust the model you're using?
• 41:09
  Does it give you accurate information?
• 41:11
  What happens if someone poisons your model and it says, oh,
• 41:15
  we'll go off and write this code and that code has a back door in
• 41:17
  it, right? There's, you know, would you
• 41:19
  have enough knowledge to be able to find that within the code
• 41:23
  itself if we, you know, kind of start to outsource that to the A
• 41:27
  I itself to let it write? I like it.
• 41:29
  I think it's a cool idea. I definitely see kind of the
• 41:31
  promise of where it's going. You mentioned Captcha's and and
• 41:35
  and having, you know, more capability to solve those via
• 41:40
  robot. And it brought to mind a CAPTCHA
• 41:45
  that I had to solve yesterday. And I don't know if you've seen
• 41:47
  this, but it's pick all the pictures with cats wearing
• 41:50
  pirate hats and one adorable, two hilarious and three.
• 41:58
  What the You know what it's like?
• 42:00
  Who comes up with these ideas for Captcha's?
• 42:03
  And yeah, it was 9 pictures of cats.
• 42:07
  Three of them were wearing pirate hats and that's how I
• 42:11
  proved that I was not a robot at some.
• 42:14
  Point I'm guessing who comes up with these ideas?
• 42:18
  You just found the perfect job for me.
• 42:22
  We should probably do that as a lighter note at some point is
• 42:24
  like ending the show on. Design the worst possible
• 42:27
  CAPTCHA, because I feel like there's a space for this.
• 42:30
  I'm taking us off in a little tangent for a second, but I
• 42:32
  don't know if you guys are familiar with the password game
• 42:34
  that's been making the rounds on like Twitter and LinkedIn and
• 42:37
  things like that, where you have to come up with a new password
• 42:41
  and it just gets increasingly increasingly ridiculous.
• 42:44
  The rules that you need to follow, I don't.
• 42:46
  I can't give credit with credit to right now because I don't
• 42:48
  have it in front of me. But it's absolutely brilliant.
• 42:50
  It's like, oh, you need a number.
• 42:51
  Oh, you need a letter, You need a special character.
• 42:53
  Oh. It needs to be the 5th day of
• 42:55
  the month, right? It needs to be not be a pattern,
• 42:58
  you know, you need to include our logo in it, things like
• 43:02
  that. It'd be great if it said it had
• 43:04
  to be at least 8 characters, but there were more than eight
• 43:08
  different types of characters that needs to contain.
• 43:11
  Yeah, I mean it's absolutely ridiculous Jimmy.
• 43:13
  If you haven't seen it, I'll send you the link to it and I'll
• 43:15
  probably find it put in the show notes.
• 43:16
  But it's it's a work of art. I feel like as an identity
• 43:20
  person seeing what plus someone did that but tangent over.
• 43:24
  Let's talk a bit more about the future of CIM.
• 43:27
  You kind of talked a little bit, Casio, of some of the things
• 43:29
  that you kind of see coming through on the experience.
• 43:32
  But are there any other trends, advancements?
• 43:36
  Is there something beyond large language models that we should
• 43:40
  be thinking about as, hey, this might be something we see in the
• 43:43
  future? I believe the.
• 43:47
  The there's a there's a lot of shorter ish I'll say term
• 43:52
  improvements that's they they may not sound astounding from
• 43:58
  like the technology that's that supports them but customer
• 44:01
  identity have not caught up with the like with some of that yet
• 44:05
  First is first of my is basic biometrics right when you when
• 44:11
  when I use my like my work computer.
• 44:15
  Like because of company policy of course it is biometrics like
• 44:18
  sign in same thing on my phone and the higher if you think of
• 44:23
  financial services all financial service have allow you already
• 44:26
  like to enable your Face ID like in on the Apple ecosystem if
• 44:30
  you're there or the equivalent in in in Android.
• 44:34
  But the adoption is being lukewarm in general like across
• 44:38
  like across the industry and the opportunity there is huge
• 44:41
  because back to why. Customer identity matters.
• 44:45
  The only matters if you're signing up more customers, if
• 44:49
  they're coming back, if they're loyal like to you.
• 44:52
  If not, then it's just a log in box, right, like you just do the
• 44:55
  minimum to keep it going. But everyone knows that's that's
• 44:59
  not that, that's not the case. So we are very excited with
• 45:03
  what's happening around Passkey and what that could mean in
• 45:08
  terms of the next level of adoption because Fido.
• 45:12
  Photo biometrics web or fan to nerd outlook for a second here.
• 45:16
  The adoption wasn't as good as everyone anticipated you would
• 45:21
  be. There's all sorts of challenges
• 45:23
  you have to reenroll, like in every app in every device.
• 45:26
  Now passkey syncs back to your iCloud account if you're like an
• 45:29
  Apple user, or to Google Drive if your Android.
• 45:32
  So all of that will help a lot, we believe.
• 45:34
  So that's one. That that we are, we think can
• 45:39
  make a huge difference for like in customer identity.
• 45:42
  The second part that I think it's very exciting and it's
• 45:47
  taking a little bit of time to to get to where it is now is
• 45:50
  this whole space of verifiable credentials.
• 45:53
  And a couple years ago with them in doing the hype of crypto and
• 45:59
  blockchain, it was all about decentralized identity and like
• 46:03
  sovereign identity and all this. Interesting like sort of like
• 46:09
  solutions looking for problems if you will, but things are
• 46:13
  crystallizing now in more tangible and actual solutions
• 46:17
  that the folks need mobile driver's license in the US, the
• 46:21
  standards are moving, states are adopting it, large platforms are
• 46:26
  are are embracing it and outside of the US.
• 46:30
  There's a lot of government identity already like being done
• 46:34
  electronically like Estonia, parts of Australia, like a few a
• 46:38
  few things in Canada. I mean lots in the European
• 46:40
  Union like lots of country European Union.
• 46:42
  The Nordics in particular have a like have adopted that.
• 46:45
  That part I find super like exciting because you you combine
• 46:51
  that with or even without like biometrics but the ability that
• 46:55
  now your identity is not. Your your password on website A
• 46:59
  and your social like on B, but that you can carry that with you
• 47:03
  and you can use that anywhere and is guaranteed by an
• 47:06
  authority that's again without getting to politics right other
• 47:11
  parts of the world is easy to have a central authority issue
• 47:14
  and our documents to to everyone in other parts of the world
• 47:16
  maybe like more more problematic.
• 47:19
  But we are very excited like about that notion like in where
• 47:22
  and the potential that this has to resolve a lot of this
• 47:25
  identity fragmentation that's that's out there.
• 47:29
  Yeah, it feels like the identity proofing wave that's coming, I
• 47:33
  truly do believe it's going to be a wave has such a great
• 47:38
  potential to minimize or reduce the amount of fraud that
• 47:43
  happens, the amount of account takeovers that happen, things
• 47:46
  like that. I also think about this mobile
• 47:50
  driver's license. I think, you know, I think it
• 47:54
  was the state of Alabama is kind of like leading the charge right
• 47:58
  now in terms of, you know, they've got something actually
• 48:01
  in production that is more than just a picture of your driver's
• 48:05
  license, right, Actually is something that you can board an
• 48:09
  airplane, get through TSA travel and at the same time has that
• 48:15
  backwards compatibility for where.
• 48:18
  Basically, the person on the other end or the person the
• 48:22
  empty on the other end only has the ability to work with that
• 48:27
  picture. I guess my concern is, is that
• 48:31
  my concern? But I'm also hopeful.
• 48:34
  So if we have 50 different implementations, all with their
• 48:38
  own nuances, that seems like could be kind of a headache.
• 48:44
  But at the same time it kind of creates competition where you
• 48:47
  hope. Maybe 10 years down the road you
• 48:51
  get one that you get the features of the best features
• 48:54
  and they all kind of rise to the top and eventually everybody
• 48:57
  does it the same way. And the way they do it is they
• 49:01
  took all the best. Now that the realist in me says,
• 49:04
  yeah, that's probably not how it's going to work, but at the
• 49:06
  same time kind of hopeful. What are your thoughts there?
• 49:09
  Yeah, I believe we've been following that problem very,
• 49:12
  very closely in the. Particularly in terms of mobile
• 49:17
  driver's license or or or MDL. So there's there's emerging
• 49:22
  standards like around it and we we believe we see things
• 49:25
  converging like in there. So we may, it may not be you may
• 49:30
  end up with something that's it's much more integrated and
• 49:33
  consistent than like 50 states like each one working like
• 49:37
  they're like their own way. So it started in a very sort of
• 49:41
  like unconvergenal things seem to be like moving in the.
• 49:45
  Like in the in the right direction and and the reason
• 49:49
  position not the only reason but the fact that now the use case
• 49:54
  to describe is of course I think they sort of the the most
• 49:59
  potentially like simple one to understand which is a boarding a
• 50:02
  plane or just verify who I am. But there a whole bunch of other
• 50:06
  needs that some parts of the world are now making mandatory
• 50:10
  like age verification I think is up is a great one.
• 50:13
  Right. Like the the days where you go
• 50:15
  to like a website that sells like like kind of like booze and
• 50:19
  just say are you over 18? Like yeah, sure.
• 50:22
  Like there are countries that are going to coming down and say
• 50:25
  like no, no, no, the onus is on. You have to prove that the
• 50:28
  person on the other side is and how would you do that other than
• 50:31
  some weird consent that you're. Parents click for you like so
• 50:37
  the mobile driver's license problem, the ID problem comes
• 50:40
  very handy like to solve that you're gonna have a much larger
• 50:43
  number of verifiers like than just the airport like problem or
• 50:49
  just like physical like presentation like of your.
• 50:52
  Talk of your identity, you have the address verification problem
• 50:55
  too. Like are you in the location
• 50:58
  like where you claim like to be. So I correlating potentially of
• 51:01
  cell phone location like with the address like from your
• 51:04
  document. Think all of that is forcing
• 51:06
  like folks to think of that done in a much larger scale versus a
• 51:10
  whole bunch of ad hoc deployments.
• 51:12
  Yeah, yeah, I think you're bringing up such an interesting
• 51:14
  topic. And we've talked about this on
• 51:16
  the podcast a lot because I kind of wonder, you know, to get to
• 51:21
  that. Don't we have to have some kind
• 51:23
  of reader on the other end? So I've got my mobile device.
• 51:27
  It's got all the information, my birth date, etcetera.
• 51:32
  Which would you do the calculation?
• 51:35
  Are you 18? Are you 21?
• 51:37
  What if I'm also pulled over by a police officer and he needs my
• 51:43
  insurance, registration and my driver's license?
• 51:47
  What if he says, well, unlock your phone, give me your phone.
• 51:51
  Now I now he's reading my emails, my text messages, and I
• 51:55
  don't want that he or she by the way.
• 51:58
  But there's there seems like I should be able to bump it or you
• 52:02
  know, do some kind of like lesser access to my device that
• 52:09
  they can get the information they need and it's probably some
• 52:12
  kind of reader, so I wonder. You know, is that problem going
• 52:16
  to be solved? Because I think if there's a
• 52:18
  hardware part of the solution, then it comes slower, even
• 52:22
  though there's more and more places now where you can do
• 52:25
  Apple Pay or Google Pay, it's just starting to be built into
• 52:31
  the credit card readers. But look, that did take a long
• 52:34
  time to get as far as we are, and it's not everywhere yet.
• 52:39
  So the 100% in the. Yeah, the devices have the
• 52:43
  capability, right, like Near Field communications or like
• 52:47
  Bluetooth or whatever like that is they've had it for for some
• 52:50
  time in payments you just mentioned, you just mentioned
• 52:53
  there. But there is there's kind of
• 52:56
  like a simpler way to do it just like your system could just
• 52:59
  produce AQR code like 2 right, like then like in that which is
• 53:03
  how like you scan your boarding pass like in most airports right
• 53:08
  now, right just. Squeeze that thing in.
• 53:10
  The thing takes your your QR code.
• 53:12
  You could think of a simple a case to where you pull up your
• 53:15
  phone. So maybe they dreaming like this
• 53:17
  a little bit. You pull up your phone like you.
• 53:20
  There's an officer like by the window that is like okay.
• 53:22
  What do you want to share? I want to share number like I
• 53:25
  want to share my driver's license.
• 53:26
  QR code pulls up his phone. Like takes a picture of that.
• 53:31
  Like the system process shows like what?
• 53:33
  Just very the verification that the identity is valid.
• 53:36
  Right This. That's one of the magics of QR
• 53:39
  code, right? Allows it to triangulate a lot
• 53:42
  of that's that information access.
• 53:45
  Yeah, I'm just a little side and I'm not going to ask you to
• 53:48
  pontificate on this, but I have always been wondering, okay,
• 53:52
  what's coming after the phone. Tried the wristwatch, you know,
• 53:56
  maybe it's a set of glasses. But what I keep coming back to
• 54:00
  is this kind of feels perfect. It's a little screen that I walk
• 54:05
  around with, a little computer that I walk around with them.
• 54:07
  Maybe this isn't the perfect size, the perfect weight, but I
• 54:12
  feel like this form factor kind of feels perfect for me.
• 54:16
  So I don't know if we're moving on from those, but I did want to
• 54:21
  ask you one more question before we kind of shift into our
• 54:26
  closeout on a on a later note, but I have a lot of folks,
• 54:30
  friends in the industry, who asked me.
• 54:33
  You know, hey, I'm getting started in the CIM space and
• 54:38
  they're just starting to explore it for their organization or
• 54:42
  trying to develop their strategic approach.
• 54:46
  And for somebody who's like new to the space, what
• 54:50
  recommendations would you have for them?
• 54:52
  What advice would you give them? I believe when I put my product
• 54:57
  hat for like for a minute here but.
• 55:02
  Looking at that, looking at the problem from the lens of a
• 55:05
  product person, from a product manager, what are the outcomes
• 55:09
  that you're trying to what? What are you trying to get?
• 55:12
  Because if you start to look from the point of view of, oh, I
• 55:15
  have an identity problem, like I want to look at a data platform
• 55:18
  and then the next you have a 600,000 question RFP with
• 55:22
  everything you can possibly think that you ever need in
• 55:25
  there instead of are you trying to.
• 55:28
  Is your marketing team on your case because like sign ups, like
• 55:32
  are going down, like your customers are complaining, they
• 55:35
  are pinging your contact center like it's blowing up your cost,
• 55:37
  it's delaying purchases. Are you going to try to launch a
• 55:41
  new product and your current identity doesn't do what your
• 55:44
  teams need security, maybe. Sometimes that's the problem,
• 55:48
  like you're being under attack, like lots of credential stuffing
• 55:51
  or whatever type of attack. I think zooming in on what the
• 55:54
  outcome that you're trying to and then work backwards from
• 55:57
  like from there. That is not advised that you
• 56:00
  maybe could argue that helps like every time we're trying to
• 56:03
  solve up a complex problem and then two more things that come
• 56:08
  to mind. One is we always advise clients
• 56:12
  and being again a product person pick small battles like like
• 56:19
  progressive process like improvement like in that Big
• 56:24
  Bang migrations like me. We all being identity for some
• 56:28
  time. Every time we have to move 100
• 56:30
  million identity from system A for system B and like over the
• 56:34
  course of one maintenance window.
• 56:35
  Those things are hard, very hard to do it.
• 56:38
  So pick an app, pick an experience, start with that and
• 56:42
  then move from keep iterating like from that.
• 56:46
  And the last part is you won't be able to anticipate tomorrow's
• 56:51
  like needs perfectly. So think of.
• 56:54
  Think of flexibility and extensibility of like whatever
• 56:57
  you're designing, whatever you're licensing, whatever
• 57:00
  you're building. Because if you end up with
• 57:03
  something that is too rigid, you're going to be over like yet
• 57:07
  another migration 2 years down the road.
• 57:09
  So you need something that is extensible for you to stay
• 57:12
  remain flexible from from that point of view.
• 57:15
  I love all those tests because they they they jive right out of
• 57:19
  what I'm thinking. I was like, okay, how do you eat
• 57:21
  the elephant? One bite at a time.
• 57:23
  Okay. Yeah, try Anything in Identity
• 57:27
  takes a lot of effort. It could be of a small change
• 57:29
  and maybe it's even just a not even a huge technical change,
• 57:33
  but it could be a massive communications change or
• 57:36
  challenge, right? To make sure you have all your
• 57:38
  users be aware of it. What's going on?
• 57:40
  You know, how are we going to do this?
• 57:42
  How we're communicating it. There's so many different
• 57:43
  variables that come into play. So I love the idea of figuring
• 57:46
  out what are you actually trying to do, because I've seen a lot
• 57:50
  of RFP's in my time. With a lot of really dumb
• 57:53
  questions that don't make any sense.
• 57:55
  They're looking for like this holy GAIL, Holy Grail product
• 57:59
  that will do the authentication and it will do 48 different
• 58:03
  methods of MFA, three of which that don't exist yet.
• 58:07
  Two of which the security industry has said you shouldn't
• 58:10
  be using those anymore as of like 10 years ago.
• 58:13
  And you end up with this behemoth of an RFP that you will
• 58:16
  never find a product that matches what you think you need.
• 58:20
  And I, I, I, I love having conversations with folks like
• 58:24
  this where it's like, hey, let's be realistic here.
• 58:27
  What are you trying to do? What are your use cases?
• 58:29
  What are you trying to solve for?
• 58:30
  What makes sense? What is available in the market
• 58:33
  today that you can take advantage of?
• 58:37
  Can you leverage open standards, right, Things like SAML, Open
• 58:40
  ID, Connect, you know, skim, things like that where, yeah,
• 58:46
  you know, you've got some better interoperatively.
• 58:48
  Is that going to solve everything?
• 58:49
  No. But at least it gives you kind
• 58:51
  of a starting point. So I love everything that you
• 58:54
  just said because it's like, like right on Cassio, you do it,
• 58:57
  man. Jim, you were talking about the
• 59:00
  next foreign factor. And I had to think about this
• 59:02
  for a second while you're asking a question because I remember I
• 59:04
  had heard something. You know, there's obviously
• 59:06
  there's the apple goggles. The Vision Pro, right, that they
• 59:11
  announced like a few weeks ago is $3000 behemoth that you're
• 59:15
  put on your face looks cool. Definitely not a mass market
• 59:17
  thing. One thing that you should look
• 59:20
  at is this thing called humane. It's a pin that you wear.
• 59:24
  It's an A I, of course, because everything's a I now.
• 59:27
  But it's a pin that you wear sort of like, you know, on your
• 59:30
  kind of like your chest. And it's a Voice Assistant.
• 59:34
  And when you need it to show you something, IT projects something
• 59:37
  and you hold your hand in front of it and all of a sudden your
• 59:40
  hand becomes a display. Really interesting.
• 59:43
  Have a lot of questions about how this work.
• 59:45
  They did a Ted talk recently. But it got me thinking when you
• 59:48
  talked about like what's the next form factor?
• 59:49
  Like, yeah, we've had slab phones now for what, 20 years,
• 59:53
  30 years at this point. You know, the flip is coming
• 59:55
  back and you know, with different types of folding, you
• 59:58
  know, origami phones that are out there now.
• 1:00:00
  But it was interesting. I was thinking about what is
• 1:00:02
  that next thing And if large language models take off the way
• 1:00:08
  that I think people are thinking maybe that's it, maybe it is
• 1:00:12
  some sort of. Earpiece that you wear that it's
• 1:00:15
  just a Voice Assistant and that's just it.
• 1:00:17
  Maybe it's built into. Hearing it to ask you this
• 1:00:19
  question. So Apple, I mean, I I love
• 1:00:25
  Apple, I love my iPhone. I guess I love the ecosystem.
• 1:00:31
  But sometimes I wonder why are why is our Apple products so
• 1:00:37
  popular? Some of the products I love,
• 1:00:39
  like I love my MacBook. Like I said, I love my iPhone.
• 1:00:44
  But have you used Siri lately? And it's like, you could not
• 1:00:47
  say, hey Siri, play me the song that goes like do, do, do.
• 1:00:52
  And by the way, my, my Siri just ringed in my ear.
• 1:00:55
  I thought, yeah, so it has no clue what you're talking about.
• 1:00:59
  Oh, let me look that up on the Internet for you.
• 1:01:01
  Yeah. So I mean playing some terrible
• 1:01:03
  song now, which I didn't want to hear.
• 1:01:05
  Yeah. You're going to get a copyright
• 1:01:06
  strike for this. Yeah, I I feel like AI.
• 1:01:11
  Apple has not, at least to date publicly got on the boat for AI
• 1:01:18
  in the way that everyone else has.
• 1:01:19
  Google has, Microsoft definitely has.
• 1:01:21
  I mean, they're all in on the open AI.
• 1:01:22
  I think they're, you know, they're an investor.
• 1:01:23
  Of course, I don't know because Siri is not an Apple product.
• 1:01:27
  Siri was an acquisition that they made.
• 1:01:30
  Siri used to be. It's I think it's like 10 years
• 1:01:33
  ago at this point. I mean, it's been around for a
• 1:01:35
  while. But it's not an Apple product.
• 1:01:38
  It is now. But it didn't start that way.
• 1:01:40
  It was an app that you ran your phone and it was, you know, a
• 1:01:43
  clever little way to, like, do little voice things.
• 1:01:46
  And I use Siri. I use it almost every day for
• 1:01:50
  mundane tasks. Set a timer.
• 1:01:54
  Remind me this. It's good at that kind of thing.
• 1:01:58
  You must have to use. You have to know the exact
• 1:02:00
  language you have to speak. You have to enunciate very
• 1:02:04
  clearly, I mean. Is.
• 1:02:07
  Bad. It's not good.
• 1:02:10
  I agree with you. I think it's it's I think of the
• 1:02:13
  major players in this space between Google, Microsoft and
• 1:02:15
  Apple. I think they're definitely a
• 1:02:17
  LastPass last place and it's not even close.
• 1:02:20
  I mean you know even Google barred which had a really rough
• 1:02:23
  start getting getting an answer wrong in a demo with the press
• 1:02:28
  is not a great way to watch your product.
• 1:02:30
  It is still head and shoulders I had of I think what again.
• 1:02:35
  I've seen publicly now, I don't work for Apple.
• 1:02:36
  I'm just a stupid podcaster by night and an identity person by
• 1:02:40
  day. So this is purely my own
• 1:02:42
  speculation. It would really surprise me if
• 1:02:45
  they don't have something working behind the scenes that
• 1:02:49
  is a lot better because this is what Apple's strength is, is
• 1:02:52
  they don't. They're not really all the time
• 1:02:55
  being like this innovative company.
• 1:02:57
  What they are is they're really good at polishing existing ideas
• 1:03:00
  and making it rock solid. They didn't invent the laptop,
• 1:03:04
  they didn't invent iPhone, you know, the cellular phone or the
• 1:03:07
  slab phone, things like that. But they're really good at
• 1:03:10
  taking existing ideas and really figuring out how do you make
• 1:03:14
  this thing work together. The ecosystem pole that Apple
• 1:03:17
  has built is amazing. I have a watch, a phone, a
• 1:03:22
  tablet, a laptop and ATVI don't have a speaker yet, but.
• 1:03:29
  I have the ecosystem. I get it.
• 1:03:31
  Things just work. If I go, I I prefer Windows
• 1:03:34
  myself as an OSI. Think it's for me.
• 1:03:37
  I'm much more comfortable. I can get more done with it.
• 1:03:39
  But I love the ecosystem that Mac that Apple has built and it
• 1:03:42
  just works together. And I see a lot of identity work
• 1:03:46
  behind the scenes to make that happen, right?
• 1:03:48
  I have a device ID's. I have my accounts that are
• 1:03:52
  synchronizing caso. You mentioned passkey syncing
• 1:03:55
  right in iCloud. It's like magic.
• 1:03:57
  It just works. I use Android 2 to 3 * a year to
• 1:04:01
  try it out and see how it is. They've caught up.
• 1:04:04
  I think they're you know the hardware is there.
• 1:04:06
  I think the the OS is a little bit fragmented because of the
• 1:04:09
  open source nature of Android but if for the most part I would
• 1:04:12
  say they're pretty equivalent but going back to the A I thing.
• 1:04:15
  Yeah Siri is not great. I'm I think it'll get a little
• 1:04:19
  bit better as they roll out the next versions of iOS, iPad OS,
• 1:04:25
  all the different Apple O S's that are coming out here the
• 1:04:27
  next couple months but. I guess that's a long way for me
• 1:04:30
  to tell you. Yeah, I don't think Siri is, is.
• 1:04:32
  Siri is winning any war, you know, any, any battles or awards
• 1:04:35
  right now. But it would surprise me that
• 1:04:38
  Apple doesn't have something that they are in the back
• 1:04:42
  watching, polishing, taking notes, and when it comes out,
• 1:04:47
  it's going to be ready for primetime.
• 1:04:50
  There are lots of things that Siri does for you like that you
• 1:04:54
  beyond the the the Voice Assistant, right.
• 1:04:56
  So all of the integration in between the apps, like if
• 1:04:59
  something shows up like in iMessage like as it creates like
• 1:05:02
  a calendar like invite like for you or like puts an appointment
• 1:05:06
  add something to your notes. That's all Siri like to that's
• 1:05:09
  working exactly to to your point, like Jeff is working
• 1:05:12
  behind the scenes. It's not the product itself,
• 1:05:14
  just a component to making the technology better, which is what
• 1:05:18
  Apple is masterful. Like, at right.
• 1:05:20
  That's really like, they're really good at.
• 1:05:22
  I mean, it's invisible. It runs behind the scenes.
• 1:05:24
  I think they're even taking away the need to even say hey Siri,
• 1:05:27
  it's just you, you say a command and it just does it.
• 1:05:32
  Work out what you want. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:05:35
  Yeah. We've had this conversation for
• 1:05:37
  Joe like are are you nice to your a eyes right.
• 1:05:39
  It was like do you right please after your ChatGPT prompt you
• 1:05:43
  know at some point I think it's interesting conversation to have
• 1:05:45
  was like you know do. What are the What is the
• 1:05:48
  etiquette with dealing with your a I versus someone else's A I
• 1:05:53
  or, you know, whatever end up calling it but I?
• 1:05:54
  Just I just feel like I'd rather be nice.
• 1:05:57
  I was taught as a youngster, Be nice to everybody.
• 1:06:01
  You can never say thank you and please too many or too many
• 1:06:04
  times right? You can't offend somebody by
• 1:06:07
  saying thank you an extra time when it wasn't appropriate.
• 1:06:11
  No one's going to have their feelings heard over that, so
• 1:06:14
  just go for it. Yeah, be nice.
• 1:06:16
  It's not hard. The one thing I'll say about
• 1:06:18
  this that's like a like a fun story, like we we're not into
• 1:06:22
  voice assistance at home. Like I turn all of that off for
• 1:06:24
  privacy reasons. I'm a little bit obsessed about
• 1:06:26
  it. But we have one.
• 1:06:28
  And once in a while like I bring my daughter, like just to ask
• 1:06:30
  questions and play with that. We spend most of our lives in
• 1:06:33
  Canada. So every time we refer to the
• 1:06:35
  assistant was like, hey, can you please, can you please?
• 1:06:38
  And then at one point. And said like oh you Canadians
• 1:06:41
  are so nice, you actually said that.
• 1:06:42
  So somebody programmed that in the assistant to say that that
• 1:06:46
  was that was pretty fighting that's a.
• 1:06:48
  That's a there's one other one other, like, silly point that I
• 1:06:51
  had to ask you about. So there's supposed to be this
• 1:06:54
  cage match, right again between Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg,
• 1:07:00
  right. And I was kind of like on the
• 1:07:03
  fence and like, who could win? And I didn't know, but I am now.
• 1:07:06
  I saw a picture of Mark Zuckerberg.
• 1:07:09
  The avails like, dude Elon Musk better back out of this thing.
• 1:07:13
  It might be embarrassing to back out this.
• 1:07:16
  We get more embarrassing. He just, like, completely gets
• 1:07:21
  destroyed by Zuckerberg. I mean, that dude's a beast.
• 1:07:24
  Yeah, and he's a judo person. I don't know.
• 1:07:26
  I mean, two billionaires yelling at each other on a stupid social
• 1:07:31
  media thing. Whatever.
• 1:07:34
  You know you're going to watch. It.
• 1:07:36
  Yeah, you know, maybe Zuck takes him physically.
• 1:07:39
  Maybe Elon builds some sort of Tesla robot to fight on his
• 1:07:43
  behalf as like an exoskeleton armor, like Ripley and Aliens or
• 1:07:47
  something like that. I'm getting really, really crazy
• 1:07:50
  now. All right, let's let's start to
• 1:07:51
  wrap things up because I want to make sure that Cassio gets out
• 1:07:55
  of here on time. Cassie, I know you're a big
• 1:07:57
  reader, and I thought we'd take today's lighter note and talk
• 1:08:01
  about maybe a book recommendation.
• 1:08:04
  Something that people can take back and help them in the either
• 1:08:08
  their identity life, their professional life.
• 1:08:12
  Something on those lines where you can say, hey, you know what,
• 1:08:13
  that was a good book. I I appreciate it and
• 1:08:16
  understand. And there's actually some things
• 1:08:17
  there that I could take back as kind of Nuggets to help me be a
• 1:08:20
  better human being. Jim Wright would be nicer,
• 1:08:22
  right? That kind of thing.
• 1:08:24
  Do you have any recommendations along that line?
• 1:08:26
  Maybe it's a book, maybe it's a podcast, maybe it's a movie or
• 1:08:29
  something like that. So I don't want to limit it to
• 1:08:31
  just book, but. What's just called media A media
• 1:08:34
  recommendation. Media recommendation that will
• 1:08:36
  make you a better human. That sounds like a pretty tall
• 1:08:38
  order. Let me let me think about it.
• 1:08:40
  No, there's I'm really into behavioral psychology.
• 1:08:44
  Like, I sometimes I feel myself like as a frustrated, like
• 1:08:47
  psychologist researcher. I love that space.
• 1:08:50
  And there's a book I read probably over 10 years ago and
• 1:08:54
  then I always picked that book back up.
• 1:08:56
  Like at times it's called Thinking Fast and Slow from Dan
• 1:09:00
  Kahneman. You can think of that book as
• 1:09:05
  sort of like the he's the person who did a lot of research in the
• 1:09:08
  60s and 70s around biases as a recency bias like sample bias,
• 1:09:14
  like he crystallized those content, brought those concepts
• 1:09:17
  into popular culture. Besides being a book is
• 1:09:21
  incredibly well written like it's so easy like to like to
• 1:09:25
  consume and. A As a product person you have
• 1:09:29
  to be aware like of the biases, right?
• 1:09:31
  You're talking to a customer, you're looking at specific
• 1:09:34
  research to don't situate in terms of the biases.
• 1:09:37
  That's everything is bias. Like nothing is totally neutral.
• 1:09:41
  Particularly if you have watched like US television.
• 1:09:44
  You know what I'm talking about, but you have to be aware of the
• 1:09:47
  of biases in there. So that super helpful both like
• 1:09:53
  in what I found like at work personal life under like.
• 1:09:57
  Understanding what scale happened in terms of politics,
• 1:09:59
  economics, like, etcetera. So that's one of my sort of top
• 1:10:03
  picks for sure. Essentially, I I just looked it
• 1:10:06
  up here. It's on Amazon, of course, so
• 1:10:08
  I'll put a link in our show notes.
• 1:10:09
  But for those people who are Kindle Unlimited subscribers,
• 1:10:12
  it's part of that subscription, so it doesn't even cost anything
• 1:10:15
  if you're already paying for that membership.
• 1:10:17
  So I have already started the download to my device and I
• 1:10:21
  appreciate that. Jim, how about yourself?
• 1:10:24
  Any media recommendations on how to be a better human or
• 1:10:27
  something like that? Well, no.
• 1:10:28
  I don't know if this makes you a better human, but when I saw
• 1:10:32
  that this was the question we were going to cover was a book
• 1:10:35
  recommendation. I started looking through my
• 1:10:36
  library and I dusted off this one, which is a Malcolm Gladwell
• 1:10:41
  book called Outliers, and I realized I hadn't read it in a
• 1:10:46
  long time, but it has some, like, really cool insights.
• 1:10:50
  I also saw it was like. You know, #1 bestselling author
• 1:10:54
  of The Tipping Point, which is another Malcolm Gladwell book
• 1:10:57
  that I also highly recommend. I mean they Malcolm Gladwell.
• 1:11:03
  I don't know much about him personally, but he's he writes
• 1:11:06
  some great books. So The Outliers was the idea
• 1:11:09
  that there are certain situations that lead people into
• 1:11:18
  certain results. And so it was like.
• 1:11:21
  The one example that was used was when you looked at NHL
• 1:11:26
  players like some high percentage of them were born in
• 1:11:30
  like a two or three month period which just happened to be the
• 1:11:35
  the end of the age cut off for hockey leagues in Canada or in
• 1:11:43
  most countries, right? So it was like May, June, July
• 1:11:46
  where the birth dates of like 80% of NHL players.
• 1:11:51
  Because they were the older kids, and the older kids got
• 1:11:54
  more attention early because they were the best players.
• 1:11:57
  And so, yeah, at each level they got more and more attention.
• 1:12:02
  And then the smaller kids got weeded out through the process.
• 1:12:07
  And I could, you know, as somebody who coached baseball
• 1:12:12
  for youth, you can kind of see like the bigger kids at that
• 1:12:15
  very earliest stage have a much bigger advantage.
• 1:12:20
  And they succeed more and enjoy the sport more because it's
• 1:12:23
  like, Oh my gosh, this, this baseball game is like, really
• 1:12:27
  easy. I was like, well, it's very
• 1:12:29
  helpful that you're also the biggest kid on the field.
• 1:12:31
  I don't know if you knew that, but so you know, it's like
• 1:12:35
  insights like that. So this is like a good while
• 1:12:38
  you're on vacation, kind of book to read.
• 1:12:39
  It gets you thinking about the world and in a different way,
• 1:12:43
  what about you? Do like that.
• 1:12:44
  I remember you mentioning that at one point I did add it to our
• 1:12:47
  show notes. So we'll have a whole bunch of
• 1:12:49
  links in our show notes. We'll have thinking fast and
• 1:12:51
  slow outliers. The story of success I got, I
• 1:12:56
  got, I got a real one and I got, I got not real one, but my real
• 1:12:59
  one is 1 minute Manager. I am not a reader who likes to
• 1:13:04
  read like manuals. I like stories.
• 1:13:07
  And it's like this story basically of this guy who is on
• 1:13:11
  the search for like the perfect manager.
• 1:13:14
  And so it's a lot of different little sort of like scenes and
• 1:13:18
  and things that talk about you know how do you manage people,
• 1:13:21
  how do you manage goals, praisings, reprimands kind of
• 1:13:26
  all this stuff. But still don't it's told it
• 1:13:28
  more of a story format almost like the The Phoenix Project Jim
• 1:13:32
  that you and I have talked about in the past and things like
• 1:13:33
  that. So it's kind of a quick easy
• 1:13:35
  read. The Dark Sided me would
• 1:13:38
  recommend the Count of Monte Cristo just you know from a
• 1:13:42
  revenge. Standpoint be patient, wait for
• 1:13:46
  your time and then strike, right.
• 1:13:49
  But no one minute manager is is the one that I'm going to
• 1:13:52
  recommend and I'll throw that into our into our show notes so.
• 1:13:57
  Isn't there like a a sandwich called a Monte Cristo?
• 1:14:00
  There is. It is a well, there's a couple
• 1:14:03
  different ways that you can prepare it, but it's basically a
• 1:14:06
  ham and cheese of different varieties, sometimes Swiss,
• 1:14:09
  etcetera. It can be served on French
• 1:14:12
  toast. Usually the component.
• 1:14:16
  Goes on. Yeah, exactly right.
• 1:14:19
  It's, it's deep fried of some variety, which, hey, I'm all in
• 1:14:22
  for that for sure. And it's usually served with
• 1:14:24
  like a jam of some sort, either Raspberry or maybe strawberry.
• 1:14:28
  I think the one that I've had the most is like a, it's
• 1:14:31
  basically a deep fried sandwich using French toast as the bread,
• 1:14:35
  ham, cheese and then a Raspberry jam that you basically dip it
• 1:14:38
  in. And yes, it's as it's as good as
• 1:14:40
  it sounds. If that's your thing, and it's
• 1:14:42
  also as healthy as it sounds if that's.
• 1:14:45
  Your I do hear Siri calling your cardiologist right now, Jim,
• 1:14:49
  just in case. Yeah, I was.
• 1:14:50
  Going to say working. Invisibly pop a few statin and
• 1:14:54
  then go ahead and have yourself a Monte Cristo.
• 1:14:58
  It'll pop up. It seems like you're about to
• 1:15:00
  have a heart attack. Would you like me to call an
• 1:15:02
  ambulance for you? That's when we'll truly be ahead
• 1:15:06
  of the game. OK, let's go ahead and wrap it
• 1:15:09
  up. Another long episode, but.
• 1:15:11
  I I really enjoyed the conversation, Cassio, so thanks
• 1:15:14
  for being part of it. I did mention that we're going
• 1:15:16
  to have a whole bunch of links in our show notes.
• 1:15:19
  I connect with Cassio on LinkedIn obviously for people
• 1:15:22
  who want to learn about Octa as well.
• 1:15:26
  I I I got a message as we were talking here about the AUS0
• 1:15:30
  April Fool's joke that you guys played several years back in
• 1:15:32
  2001 of Crapchas. So I'll put a link to that.
• 1:15:37
  The password game, the book recommendations of course our
• 1:15:41
  discount code for the Authenticate conference and then
• 1:15:44
  links for people to connect with Jim and myself.
• 1:15:46
  So we'll go ahead and leave it there.
• 1:15:48
  We're on the web, IDAC podcast.com, Twitter at IDAC
• 1:15:52
  podcast, Mastodon at IDAC Podcast at infosec dot exchange.
• 1:15:58
  Definitely send in those recommendations, ideas,
• 1:16:00
  questions, etcetera. Please keep those things coming
• 1:16:03
  in. Jim is nodding an agreement and.
• 1:16:06
  Yeah, don't forget to like, subscribe all those fun social
• 1:16:09
  things that helps us grow the show and keep putting content
• 1:16:12
  out. So, Casio, thank you so much for
• 1:16:15
  your time and joining us this week.
• 1:16:17
  Jim, as always, thanks for your time and we'll go ahead and talk
• 1:16:19
  with everyone else in the next one.
• 1:16:21
  Thank you both. It was great.
• 1:16:23
  You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
• 1:16:26
  We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
• 1:16:30
  review and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
• 1:16:34
  website at identity@thecenter.com and find
• 1:16:38
  us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. See you next time on Identity at
• 1:16:46
  the Center.