Latest / Vanguards of Healthcare by Bloomberg Intelligence / Halle Tecco on AI, Boom-Bust Cycles and Building Better Care

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Halle Tecco on AI, Boom-Bust Cycles and Building Better Care · Vanguards of Healthcare by Bloomberg Intelligence

0:21
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Bloomberg Intelligences Bandguards of Healthcare
0:24
Speaker 1: podcast where we speak with the leaders at the forefront
0:26
Speaker 1: of change in the healthcare industry. My name is Jonathan Palmer,
0:29
Speaker 1: and I'm a healthcare analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence, the in
0:32
Speaker 1: house research arm of Bloomberg. I'm very excited to welcome
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Speaker 1: Halle Techo to the podcast today. Hallie's best known as
0:39
Speaker 1: a founder of Rock Health, one of the earliest and
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Speaker 1: most influential venture funds dedicated to digital health. Over the
0:45
Speaker 1: past decade and a half, She's had a front row
0:47
Speaker 1: seat to the evolution of healthcare innovation, from the early
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Speaker 1: days of mobile health apps to the recent surge and
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Speaker 1: AI enabled care models. She's also the author of the
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Speaker 1: new book Massively Better Healthcare, which is spores how entrepreneurs, investors,
1:01
Speaker 1: and policy makers can build a system that you delivers
1:05
Speaker 1: dramatically better outcomes for patients. Thank you so much for
1:09
Speaker 1: joining us today. Why don't we start with your journey, Howie?
1:13
Speaker 1: What first drew you to healthcare and ultimately led you
1:15
Speaker 1: to found Rock Health, you know, a decade and a
1:18
Speaker 1: half ago.
1:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Jonathan, and thanks for having me. I'm a
1:22
Speaker 2: longtime listener, first time guest, so really excited for our
1:26
Speaker 2: conversation today. I came to healthcare when I was in
1:30
Speaker 2: business school, and I was really interested in combining my
1:33
Speaker 2: interest in technology and at that time kind of more
1:36
Speaker 2: broadly social impact. And I started just putting feelers out
1:41
Speaker 2: there and learning about different areas and reading up on
1:46
Speaker 2: different social problems within the US, and honestly, healthcare was
1:52
Speaker 2: the one that I was most drawn to. Felt like
1:54
Speaker 2: something that touches all of us, something that I personally
1:57
Speaker 2: was very passionate about seeing family members deal with certain
2:01
Speaker 2: health experiences, my own healthcare experiences, and I ended up
2:08
Speaker 2: at the time I was just blogging and I was
2:10
Speaker 2: starting to just share ideas. That's the best way I
2:14
Speaker 2: know how to learn is actually synthesizing what I'm learning
2:18
Speaker 2: and then putting it out there in the world and
2:21
Speaker 2: starting these conversations as something I've always done. But something
2:24
Speaker 2: I wrote got the attention of the then chief of
2:28
Speaker 2: staff to Steve Jobs, and he reached out to me
2:30
Speaker 2: and said, why don't you come spend the summer at Apple.
2:33
Speaker 2: We want to do more in healthcare, And I was like, absolutely,
2:38
Speaker 2: like one incredible, incredible opportunity, and I was just back
2:42
Speaker 2: in San Francisco for a month from my book tour
2:44
Speaker 2: and got to catch up with him and thank him
2:46
Speaker 2: for everything he's done. And we've since he's now in
2:50
Speaker 2: a VC and he's invested in one of my companies,
2:53
Speaker 2: which is cool. But that was really the turning point
2:57
Speaker 2: for me, having that opportunity to be at Apple me
3:00
Speaker 2: you know, in charge of the healthcare medical segment for
3:02
Speaker 2: the App Store. The App Store was a year old
3:04
Speaker 2: at the time. I tell the story and the opening
3:07
Speaker 2: of my book because I say, like I had them
3:11
Speaker 2: bringing me in to run healthcare had little to do
3:14
Speaker 2: with my qualifications to do so, and more that, like,
3:19
Speaker 2: you know, the attention was elsewhere and they needed someone
3:23
Speaker 2: to kind of take a look at things. But healthcare
3:25
Speaker 2: was not important to Apple at the time. Gaming, social media, lifestyle,
3:31
Speaker 2: those apps were the ones that people were downloading like crazy,
3:35
Speaker 2: that developers were really innovating around. And I tell the
3:39
Speaker 2: story in the book about sitting next to Linda Kim,
3:42
Speaker 2: another you know now dear friend. She's gone on to
3:45
Speaker 2: do very cool things, and she covered the gaming segment
3:49
Speaker 2: and the developers that were coming in and out of
3:51
Speaker 2: her cubicle that were building these apps were using every
3:54
Speaker 2: native feature of the iPhone. The one app that I
3:58
Speaker 2: remember that really was like an AHA moment for me.
4:02
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember this, but it was
4:03
Speaker 2: like a Marble game and it used the gyrometer on
4:06
Speaker 2: the phone and you'd like move your phone around to
4:09
Speaker 2: move the marble through a maze. My mind was blown.
4:14
Speaker 2: I thought, oh my gosh, this phone is going to
4:17
Speaker 2: change everything, Like we have an opportunity now in every
4:21
Speaker 2: single industry to make products, services far more accessible and
4:28
Speaker 2: continuous than ever before. And here I sit covering the
4:32
Speaker 2: segment that is the biggest industry of them all, and
4:38
Speaker 2: I was seeing crap. Like the developers that were building
4:41
Speaker 2: for healthcare. First of all, there were no entrepreneurs, there
4:45
Speaker 2: were no founders. There was really no one from Silicon
4:48
Speaker 2: Valley that was doing anything interesting, at least that I saw.
4:51
Speaker 2: They were generally large healthcare companies like al Selvier. What's
4:57
Speaker 2: the the medical DM Remember they did one of the
4:59
Speaker 2: first stabs and it really felt more like check the
5:03
Speaker 2: box strategy that was taking what was previously on a
5:09
Speaker 2: website and making it smaller. It was nothing interesting, nothing innovative,
5:15
Speaker 2: and I was just so fired up from that experience.
5:19
Speaker 2: I thought healthcare deserves better. I want all these super
5:22
Speaker 2: talented people that are over here building gaming apps trying
5:27
Speaker 2: to figure out how to get people to click on ads,
5:29
Speaker 2: I want them to come to healthcare. And so I
5:32
Speaker 2: went back to finish my MBA, partnered with a classmate
5:37
Speaker 2: of mine who was an MDMBA, Nate Gross. He went
5:41
Speaker 2: on to start Doximity take it public. Now he's head
5:44
Speaker 2: of healthcare at Open AI. I've worked with some really
5:48
Speaker 2: cool people in my career, very lucky. But he and
5:51
Speaker 2: I spent the year working on a business plan to
5:55
Speaker 2: kind of bring together these two very very separate, siloed worlds,
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Speaker 2: and from that grew Rock Health and move back to
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Speaker 2: the Bay Area, and you know, the rest is history.
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Speaker 1: What did you get right and maybe what did you
6:13
Speaker 1: get wrong in that initial business plan, because I imagine
6:15
Speaker 1: it's gone through a couple of innovations.
6:19
Speaker 2: So what did we get right? I would say we
6:25
Speaker 2: we welcomed everyone in. We recognize that we cannot solve
6:31
Speaker 2: these problems with the same thinking that we used to
6:34
Speaker 2: get ourselves into this mess, and we were very welcoming
6:39
Speaker 2: to quote unquote outsiders and I don't like that term
6:42
Speaker 2: because I think if you have a body, if you've
6:45
Speaker 2: helped a loved one go through a challenging diagnosis, if
6:49
Speaker 2: you've been to the doctors yourself, like you're a stakeholder,
6:52
Speaker 2: you belong here. I don't like you know, you're not
6:55
Speaker 2: an outsider. Let's stop treating people like outsiders. But that
6:58
Speaker 2: was very radical, right, Like people were not welcomed into healthcare.
7:03
Speaker 2: So I think that's something we got right. At the
7:04
Speaker 2: same time, we broad in healthcare experts. Our very first
7:10
Speaker 2: LPs were Mayo Clinic, Kaiser Permanente like giants in healthcare
7:14
Speaker 2: who were excited about the opportunity to work with tech folks.
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Speaker 2: So we welcomed everyone. We didn't gatekeep. We were very open.
7:24
Speaker 2: I would say that's that's what we got right.
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Speaker 1: What do you think resonated, you know with those early investors.
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Speaker 1: I've imagining going to Mayo and saying, you know, I've
7:35
Speaker 1: want to do a healthcare technology fund or digital health fund,
7:38
Speaker 1: depending on what label you put on it. Yeah, and
7:42
Speaker 1: then saying okay, but we could maybe do this ourselves,
7:45
Speaker 1: or you know, maybe there's other people out there doing it.
7:47
Speaker 2: Well, there weren't other people doing it. Really there was
7:50
Speaker 2: very We had healthcare deep healthcare investors who didn't believe
7:55
Speaker 2: in the consumerization of healthcare, thought patients will never pay
7:58
Speaker 2: for things. And then you had tech investors who were
8:02
Speaker 2: more tourists vcs who some of them are better than others,
8:07
Speaker 2: but most of them see very different timelines in tech
8:11
Speaker 2: and didn't have the patience to stay in healthcare. So
8:13
Speaker 2: we call them like tourist vcs that have kind of
8:15
Speaker 2: gone in and out. Some of them have built real
8:18
Speaker 2: expertise in healthcare over those years, and now I think
8:21
Speaker 2: have done a great job, So I would say it
8:27
Speaker 2: would have been fine for them to do it on
8:28
Speaker 2: their own as well. Like we weren't like cap tables
8:32
Speaker 2: have dozens of investors on them, so it's not like
8:35
Speaker 2: only one investor could win. But we were doing the
8:41
Speaker 2: leg work of building the community and we were on
8:46
Speaker 2: the ground. We were young, we had, you know, the
8:50
Speaker 2: time and energy to put into truly building the community
8:55
Speaker 2: and bringing people together on a daily basis. Our office
9:02
Speaker 2: was it was a very cool office, open to everyone.
9:07
Speaker 2: People come through, you know, we'd have visitors from Japan
9:11
Speaker 2: that were like, we've heard what you're doing. You want
9:12
Speaker 2: to come by and of course come by to check
9:15
Speaker 2: us out. So I think that they were It wasn't
9:18
Speaker 2: a let's do let's fund Rock Health instead of doing
9:23
Speaker 2: our own thing. It was like, we're investing in digital
9:25
Speaker 2: health as part of that, let's support Rock Health.
9:30
Speaker 1: Got it? What categories did you gravitate towards those those
9:33
Speaker 1: early days? And it's just funn It's funny when you're
9:35
Speaker 1: talking about the book. I actually read it before we chatted,
9:38
Speaker 1: and I think there's a picture of Sean Duffy sitting
9:40
Speaker 1: in your office from Amata, right, is that one of
9:42
Speaker 1: the early day photos.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, A Motto was our very first, very first company,
9:49
Speaker 2: and have worked with them for many years. I would
9:52
Speaker 2: say me personally, I mean, obviously our portfolio, our early
9:56
Speaker 2: portfolio was made up of companies that are tea t
10:00
Speaker 2: was team was most excited about. I personally have always
10:03
Speaker 2: been drawn to companies that change the patient experience and
10:09
Speaker 2: empower the consumer in some way. That has been a
10:12
Speaker 2: constant theme in my career and what fires me up.
10:18
Speaker 2: And then you know, I for many years had a
10:21
Speaker 2: co managing director, Malay Gandhi, and he and I worked
10:24
Speaker 2: so well together because he was really into and understood
10:28
Speaker 2: the piping and infrastructure that was necessary for healthcare to
10:33
Speaker 2: function better and to drive down costs and remove waste.
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Speaker 2: So you know, he got excited about those deals, and
10:42
Speaker 2: you know, we collaborated a lot, but it was, you know,
10:45
Speaker 2: a lot driven by what we were personally really passionate about.
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Speaker 1: And you know, you've you've probably had a front seat
10:50
Speaker 1: to I don't know, thousands of different founders. I mean,
10:53
Speaker 1: if you could kind of maybe distill it down into
10:55
Speaker 1: a couple key categories what really worked for you, and
10:59
Speaker 1: find out where and who you wanted to invest in,
11:03
Speaker 1: you know, I.
11:06
Speaker 2: I was taught, I was kind of raised to believe
11:09
Speaker 2: like that in the jockey, not the horse. And I
11:14
Speaker 2: think for the most part, that's that's worked out. There
11:17
Speaker 2: are obviously cases where really great people couldn't figure out healthcare.
11:21
Speaker 2: I mean, look at a tool Gwande and Haven Health,
11:24
Speaker 2: some of the biggest giants in our industry couldn't figure
11:27
Speaker 2: it out. And I think that's nature of startups, right.
11:31
Speaker 2: Ninety five percent of startups fail, seventy five percent of
11:34
Speaker 2: VC back startups fail, and healthcare is not immune to that.
11:38
Speaker 2: And I don't think that we should expect people to
11:43
Speaker 2: not try just because it's more likely to fail than succeed.
11:48
Speaker 2: I think it's all about trying. And I think we
11:50
Speaker 2: actually in our industry need more openness and conversations about
11:55
Speaker 2: why things didn't work out and not caring around shame
11:58
Speaker 2: because I would personally rather see people try then not try.
12:03
Speaker 2: And also, and I give the stat in the book,
12:05
Speaker 2: but there was some really compelling research that shows that
12:09
Speaker 2: founders who start companies that don't work out end up
12:12
Speaker 2: after the company better off than their peers who didn't
12:15
Speaker 2: even try because interesting future employers value that experience no
12:20
Speaker 2: matter what, and so they end up in with higher
12:23
Speaker 2: titles and higher salaries. So if you're even worried about failure,
12:27
Speaker 2: like you're actually going to be fine. I think, obviously
12:30
Speaker 2: not if it's a catastrophic failure, if you're you know,
12:33
Speaker 2: in trouble with the lob, but if you get it
12:36
Speaker 2: an honest shot and you learn something like that is valuable.
12:41
Speaker 2: So I think that finding founders who are really hungry
12:47
Speaker 2: to make change, if they come to the problem with
12:50
Speaker 2: like genuine curiosity and compassion for the stakeholders, and then
12:56
Speaker 2: you know, you heard me talk about this so much
12:59
Speaker 2: in the book but I call it like, you have
13:00
Speaker 2: to become an anthropologist of healthcare, at least in the
13:03
Speaker 2: corner of healthcare that you are trying to change, and
13:07
Speaker 2: just be so close to the problem. The proximity really matters,
13:11
Speaker 2: and you're not building it from the outside and expecting
13:13
Speaker 2: people to just like follow your lead. You're building it
13:17
Speaker 2: with your stakeholders. And that's that type of founder is
13:21
Speaker 2: always more successful. And those are the types of founders
13:24
Speaker 2: that I try to work with.
13:25
Speaker 1: Maybe just going out a tangent here. You know, you
13:27
Speaker 1: mentioned the Haven example, and it's one that I bring
13:31
Speaker 1: up constantly in my discussions. And I can recall ten
13:34
Speaker 1: years ago the discussions we were having with public equity
13:37
Speaker 1: investors were like, well, is big tech going to come
13:39
Speaker 1: in and basically just take over healthcare? And you know,
13:42
Speaker 1: we were talking about Apple, we were talking about Facebook,
13:44
Speaker 1: even Google. You know, where where have you seen that
13:49
Speaker 1: cycle kind of ebb and flow? And where do you
13:51
Speaker 1: think we are today with the I don't know, incumbents
13:56
Speaker 1: or big companies in terms of how they're focused on healthcare?
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Speaker 2: Such a question. There's been a lot of wasted time,
14:03
Speaker 2: dollars effort from big tech their interest. Do you remember
14:08
Speaker 2: when I was getting started, it was like the Google
14:10
Speaker 2: Health they were building an EMR with the Cleveland clinic and.
14:14
Speaker 1: And the health fault was that Microsoft. I can't remember
14:17
Speaker 1: health vault?
14:18
Speaker 2: Was that help?
14:19
Speaker 1: Was that Google? I think it might be Google.
14:22
Speaker 2: Microsoft did Yeah, I think that was Google, and that
14:23
Speaker 2: Microsoft had something obviously IBM Watson remember that I have
14:28
Speaker 2: such mixed feelings about it because it's the same conversation
14:31
Speaker 2: as like, founders have to be okay with failing, and
14:33
Speaker 2: we had to be okay with at least we tried. Uh.
14:36
Speaker 2: But you would hope that with all the resources in
14:39
Speaker 2: the world that these companies had, the balance sheets that
14:43
Speaker 2: they had, that they could actually create bigger change than
14:49
Speaker 2: they've been able to. So it's like it's it's been disappointing,
14:54
Speaker 2: but maybe there have been small cracks in the foundation
14:58
Speaker 2: that they've enabled that have open the doors for others.
15:02
Speaker 2: And so I think we can remain hopeful and we
15:06
Speaker 2: don't want to see them abandon healthcare. But we see
15:09
Speaker 2: like Google's alphabet is a good example because think about
15:13
Speaker 2: all the different places within alphabet that touches healthcare. I mean,
15:16
Speaker 2: GV has uh, you know, backed a ton of companies.
15:20
Speaker 2: I'm an investor in City Block Health. They have big
15:22
Speaker 2: sidewalk labs ties, so Google, it's like an optopus right
15:27
Speaker 2: like there, it's it's little tentacles are in healthcare in
15:30
Speaker 2: a lot of different ways, and some of the ways
15:33
Speaker 2: have been successful and others have fizzled out. But I
15:39
Speaker 2: think that it's not because they don't have the resources
15:44
Speaker 2: or haven't taken it seriously. I think it's because health
15:46
Speaker 2: care is really hard and the incumbents are very, very powerful,
15:52
Speaker 2: so it'll be interesting. I mean, I people think that
15:55
Speaker 2: maybe like a Google or Apple will just you know,
16:00
Speaker 2: maybe make some big acquisitions, like maybe Apple just by Aura,
16:03
Speaker 2: or Google will buy Epic. You know, who knows what's
16:08
Speaker 2: going to happen, but it might this success might come
16:10
Speaker 2: from using their dollars for acquisitions versus building it in house.
16:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think I think you make a
16:16
Speaker 1: good point. We've seen some chipping away on the margin.
16:18
Speaker 1: I like the example of Amazon Pharmacy bringing transparency to
16:22
Speaker 1: drug pricing, and that's definitely caused some behavior change. You know,
16:26
Speaker 1: we were talking before we started about Mark Cuban and
16:29
Speaker 1: what he's doing, and you've seen drug pricing is becoming
16:33
Speaker 1: more transparent totally.
16:35
Speaker 2: And I talk about pill pack in my book. And
16:38
Speaker 2: Amazon's then obviously a big acquirer and I'm a one
16:42
Speaker 2: medical customer still to this day and wow, yeah, and
16:46
Speaker 2: it's it really they do make it easy to get scripts,
16:49
Speaker 2: so I do appreciate that. But it'll be it's interesting.
16:52
Speaker 2: Didn't Amazon recently do they announce like Kiosks, they're they're
16:57
Speaker 2: going after the Kiosks. So we've seen a numberumber of
17:00
Speaker 2: iterations on the whole, like Health, Kiosk, idea, Forward Health.
17:07
Speaker 1: I think Forward Health is the best example. But I
17:09
Speaker 1: think that was an interesting one because the leader there
17:12
Speaker 1: very much, in my view, seeing more of the outside
17:16
Speaker 1: pushing in that this is the tech way to do
17:19
Speaker 1: things versus maybe taking the inside out.
17:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I mean he came from he came from Google, right,
17:27
Speaker 2: and a lot of tech investors, and you know, they
17:32
Speaker 2: were building for archetype that was themselves though, so you
17:35
Speaker 2: could argue they were building for a high net worth,
17:39
Speaker 2: worried well customer and maybe that just couldn't scale.
17:45
Speaker 1: Right, right. You know, as we're talking here, I'm thinking
17:48
Speaker 1: about the different cycles with the large cap companies. And
17:51
Speaker 1: then I wanted to get your view on the cycles
17:53
Speaker 1: that you've seen, you know, in the digital world or
17:57
Speaker 1: really the health technology or however you want to describe it,
18:00
Speaker 1: over the last decade and a half, because it seems
18:01
Speaker 1: like we've gone through a couple peaks and valleys. And
18:04
Speaker 1: I also think as a public equity analyst, you know,
18:07
Speaker 1: we had that period and the pandemic with the IPOs
18:09
Speaker 1: and the SPACs and a lot of those didn't really
18:12
Speaker 1: work out. I'd love to get your take of, you know,
18:15
Speaker 1: what cycles have you identified, and maybe where are we
18:20
Speaker 1: right now and what do you see for the next
18:22
Speaker 1: I don't know, year or two.
18:24
Speaker 2: Not to be kind of generic, but I do feel
18:26
Speaker 2: like there's a pre COVID digital health and a post
18:28
Speaker 2: COVID digital health. And I'm sure you saw the same thing.
18:31
Speaker 2: But what happened in COVID was an acceleration of adoption
18:35
Speaker 2: of technology that we had never seen before and that
18:38
Speaker 2: would have otherwise taken years and years and years. And
18:42
Speaker 2: one of the things that happened, and I've talked to
18:44
Speaker 2: a lot of health system executives and CEOs that basically
18:50
Speaker 2: we're forced to change culturally in a very short period
18:55
Speaker 2: of time, and then recognize like, hey, actually we're pretty
18:57
Speaker 2: good at this. We're pretty good at vetting third party products.
19:02
Speaker 2: We're not bad at building in ourselves. And we've figured
19:06
Speaker 2: out how to roll these out to our employees and
19:09
Speaker 2: our staff in a way that somewhat reduces friction but
19:14
Speaker 2: like builds it into their workflows. And so now today
19:19
Speaker 2: we're seeing the hospitals are bigger adopters of digital health
19:22
Speaker 2: than health plans or farm or any other industry, which
19:25
Speaker 2: was completely flipped before. If you had come to me
19:28
Speaker 2: ten years ago with a product selling to a hospital,
19:31
Speaker 2: or come to any investor, it would have been you know,
19:34
Speaker 2: this is that is a long sales cycle. It's very
19:38
Speaker 2: painful to sell to hospitals. Now it's like, actually, hospitals
19:42
Speaker 2: are some of the best customers and you know, and
19:46
Speaker 2: once you are able to get into the hospital those relationships,
19:50
Speaker 2: the LTV there is huge because it becomes so sticky
19:54
Speaker 2: and the switching class is so high. So that's kind
19:57
Speaker 2: of the big thing that I saw at COVID. Obviously
19:59
Speaker 2: we had a bump, as you mentioned the IPOs and
20:03
Speaker 2: the SPACs. I think the only SPAC that worked out
20:05
Speaker 2: was Hymns. A lot of a lot of failures during
20:08
Speaker 2: that time. I think that was very painful in twenty
20:10
Speaker 2: twenty two to twenty twenty three to be a company
20:13
Speaker 2: fundraising at that time or selling at that time. I'm
20:16
Speaker 2: an investor in fifty one active companies right now, and
20:19
Speaker 2: I have been recapped by so many of them in
20:22
Speaker 2: that time period because these later stage investors come and
20:26
Speaker 2: even if the company had been doing well, they obviously
20:31
Speaker 2: all had inflated valuations during the pandemic twenty twenty twenty
20:36
Speaker 2: twenty one, and it's hard for any company to grow
20:39
Speaker 2: into that valuation, and so there's a reset. And of
20:43
Speaker 2: course those resets happened in early employees, early investors are
20:47
Speaker 2: the ones that get screwed over in that situation. So
20:50
Speaker 2: we had this this time period where I'll just say
20:53
Speaker 2: I got many many sad emails from founders who were
20:57
Speaker 2: put in situations where to continue on with the company
21:01
Speaker 2: they had to take deal terms that were not favorable
21:04
Speaker 2: to them or their existing investors. It was very challenging
21:07
Speaker 2: a lot of companies that got sold for pennies that
21:11
Speaker 2: good otherwise good companies, companies that I think would have
21:14
Speaker 2: been better off had the pandemic not happened. Even though
21:18
Speaker 2: the pandemic peaked in terms of their revenue and growth structory,
21:23
Speaker 2: a steady path would have been better for them. And
21:26
Speaker 2: then now we've I think, gotten to a place where
21:31
Speaker 2: there's more steadiness and pricing of these deals. The supply
21:36
Speaker 2: and demand is more in line if you are an
21:40
Speaker 2: AI or AI enabled company, and if you are not,
21:46
Speaker 2: then you probably are experiencing well, I know you're experiencing
21:50
Speaker 2: the same sort of investor market as we all experienced
21:56
Speaker 2: and we'll say twenty twenty three.
21:58
Speaker 1: So maybe that's a good segue. Contain a sure. I mean,
22:01
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting the point you make around
22:04
Speaker 1: the providers, particularly the health systems, adopting these tools. I
22:08
Speaker 1: have a sneaky suspicion that the reason managed care has
22:11
Speaker 1: had such a hard time the last couple of years
22:13
Speaker 1: is that there's been widespread adoption of a lot of
22:15
Speaker 1: the RCM tools and that's really driving up the on
22:20
Speaker 1: paper acuity of a lot of these patients. I mean,
22:24
Speaker 1: we've seen a ton of deals in that space and
22:26
Speaker 1: a ton of funding. So yeah, I guess the question
22:30
Speaker 1: I'd like to ask is that AI how much is
22:33
Speaker 1: hype and how much is reality? In your view.
22:36
Speaker 2: I think AI is the biggest thing to happen to
22:41
Speaker 2: healthcare in my career. I think it will have a
22:44
Speaker 2: bigger lasting impact on healthcare than the pandemic did. I
22:49
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of hype. I think there's a
22:51
Speaker 2: lot of overpaying. I see these deals that come to
22:54
Speaker 2: me that are just like an idea. They don't have
22:57
Speaker 2: anything really built, yet they vibe coded something.
23:00
Speaker 1: Then you know, three people in a term sheet.
23:02
Speaker 2: Three people in a term sheet, and you know they're
23:05
Speaker 2: just plugging into open AI and they're asking, you know,
23:08
Speaker 2: for one hundred million dollar valuation. That's not sustainable. That
23:14
Speaker 2: doesn't that doesn't make sense to me. But I do
23:17
Speaker 2: think that the underlying capabilities that AI is enabling is
23:23
Speaker 2: going to create lasting change. We're already seeing that, Like
23:25
Speaker 2: we're already seeing clinicians adopt AI faster than truly anything,
23:33
Speaker 2: like you know, open evidence saying that they've there their adoptions,
23:36
Speaker 2: but faster than anything since the mobile phone for clinicians.
23:39
Speaker 2: And to see that being a pull versus a push
23:43
Speaker 2: that also changes things, right, like we have had to
23:46
Speaker 2: force clinicians to use to use things. I talk in
23:49
Speaker 2: my book about the Kaiser nurses that are protesting, you know,
23:52
Speaker 2: using these new tools. I mean there's a resistance to
23:56
Speaker 2: change across healthcare providers that has existed from my entire career,
24:00
Speaker 2: and now we're seeing providers be like, hey, I need this,
24:03
Speaker 2: I want this. I don't want to work without my
24:05
Speaker 2: scribe because this makes my job easier better. I'm no
24:09
Speaker 2: longer working at night because I'm not needing to chart
24:12
Speaker 2: because I have this tool that's charting for me and
24:15
Speaker 2: seeing that pool is really exciting. So I think overall,
24:18
Speaker 2: like when it comes to the technology, I do think
24:20
Speaker 2: that this is the biggest thing that's happened in our
24:22
Speaker 2: careers and will have positive lasting change in terms of
24:28
Speaker 2: like what's having on the business side, where I think
24:33
Speaker 2: that's going to be temporary and I think we'll level
24:35
Speaker 2: out to a place that makes a lot more sense.
24:37
Speaker 2: And then there are other areas that have been harmed,
24:39
Speaker 2: like like looking at the SaaS stocks right now that
24:42
Speaker 2: have been hammered over the last twelve months because of this.
24:46
Speaker 2: I think that that's like also overblown and that that'll
24:49
Speaker 2: that'll normalize as well.
24:51
Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right there there's always this knee
24:54
Speaker 1: jerk reaction that that the world is going to change,
24:57
Speaker 1: you know, at the drop of a dime, and it
24:58
Speaker 1: never really truly comes to asked like that. I mean,
25:01
Speaker 1: maybe the pandemic is the you know, the edge case
25:04
Speaker 1: where things do change overnight, but that's unlikely to happen
25:09
Speaker 1: in the next twelve months, eighteen months.
25:11
Speaker 2: You know.
25:11
Speaker 1: One of the things I wanted to ask you about, though,
25:13
Speaker 1: is that the framework for your investments. How has that
25:17
Speaker 1: changed maybe today around AI versus how you looked at
25:21
Speaker 1: the digital world ten years ago. Has that framework changed
25:25
Speaker 1: at all?
25:26
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I've evolved my framework, but not because of AI.
25:32
Speaker 2: I went back to school to get my MPH when
25:35
Speaker 2: I was thirty something years old and thirty five years old.
25:41
Speaker 2: I think I was mostly because I was like, Okay,
25:45
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm a decent investor. I'm like pretty
25:47
Speaker 2: good at this. I have a lot of good markups,
25:49
Speaker 2: But like, am I actually making health care better? That
25:52
Speaker 2: was like a question I could not confidently answer, and
25:57
Speaker 2: I probably didn't need to go to school to do that.
25:59
Speaker 2: But I like school. I like universities, I like campuses.
26:03
Speaker 2: Obviously I've been teaching the last decade, but getting fluent
26:09
Speaker 2: in public health and understanding the forest and the trees
26:14
Speaker 2: and how any product has downstream effects that impact the
26:20
Speaker 2: entire healthcare system. Being able to learn how to ask
26:24
Speaker 2: those questions and become a little bit more skeptical, become
26:28
Speaker 2: a balance skeptic helped me kind of refine my framework
26:32
Speaker 2: so that I could funnel my time, energy and resources
26:36
Speaker 2: into companies that I feel like, as I say in
26:39
Speaker 2: the book, like align the margin and the mission where
26:42
Speaker 2: they are growing because they're making health care better. There's
26:46
Speaker 2: a lot of ways to make money in healthcare that
26:49
Speaker 2: frankly makes healthcare a lot worse in my mind, and
26:53
Speaker 2: they can take someone else's money. I'm not interested in
26:56
Speaker 2: those kind of things anymore. And I don't think that
26:58
Speaker 2: founders have bad intentions. I think they just don't necessarily
27:02
Speaker 2: ask hard questions about how they might be worried about
27:06
Speaker 2: their primary stakeholders, but their secondary stakeholders they don't really
27:10
Speaker 2: think about. And I give the example in my book
27:12
Speaker 2: about full body MRIs and some of the questions that
27:16
Speaker 2: I think need to be asked around that. I'm not
27:19
Speaker 2: a skeptic. I'm very much for empowering patients, and I
27:23
Speaker 2: believe that I don't even think you should have to
27:25
Speaker 2: have a doctor's note to get your blood taken? Why
27:29
Speaker 2: do we like, why are there all these gatekeepers for
27:31
Speaker 2: us to have information about our own bodies? I think
27:34
Speaker 2: that is like I have a strong position on that,
27:38
Speaker 2: but I think that for these companies who are commercializing
27:40
Speaker 2: these tools, we have to understand and ask the questions around, well,
27:44
Speaker 2: what are your false positives? What are your false negatives?
27:48
Speaker 2: Like how is this impacting the healthcare system? How many
27:50
Speaker 2: people are going down rabbit holes and then have to
27:52
Speaker 2: do follow ups? Is that overwhelming an already strained system.
27:57
Speaker 2: These are just the types of questions that I was
28:00
Speaker 2: that I'm now able and I do actively think through
28:05
Speaker 2: as I look at companies, because look, we're here for
28:09
Speaker 2: a very short time. We allocate every day to different activities,
28:16
Speaker 2: and then, frankly, I'm just like I'm you know, I'm
28:19
Speaker 2: probably I don't know, halfway point in my career. Now
28:23
Speaker 2: I'm forty two, and we'll see, we'll see how much
28:26
Speaker 2: longer I want to go. But I want, I truly
28:30
Speaker 2: want to make health care better like it is. I
28:34
Speaker 2: wake up every day wanting to make health care better
28:36
Speaker 2: and so being able to ask those tough questions and
28:39
Speaker 2: learning to ask those tough questions has really helped. I
28:41
Speaker 2: think I wanted to make health care better in theory
28:47
Speaker 2: this whole time, but it just took a while for
28:49
Speaker 2: me to understand the sort of questions that you need
28:53
Speaker 2: to ask that help answer that question.
28:56
Speaker 1: Well, that's a good, good, good move towards you know
28:59
Speaker 1: where what made you decide to write the book? And
29:02
Speaker 1: why now? And you know who's it really geared to her?
29:04
Speaker 1: Because I was reading it and I was like, well,
29:06
Speaker 1: this is this would be great for an investor, would
29:09
Speaker 1: be great for a founder and operator? Who did you
29:11
Speaker 1: write the book for? And you know why now?
29:14
Speaker 2: Yeah? Why? No? Is more? I mean I could give
29:17
Speaker 2: like the generic answer of like, you know, healthcare is
29:22
Speaker 2: in the most challenging spot we've ever been in with
29:25
Speaker 2: rising costs. Consumers are at the highest frustration point ever.
29:31
Speaker 2: At the same time, we have new tools that didn't exist.
29:34
Speaker 2: It's easier than ever to start a company. That would
29:38
Speaker 2: be like that would be like the PR answer, That's
29:41
Speaker 2: what like my PR personal wants want me to say.
29:44
Speaker 2: The real answer is I've been working on this book
29:47
Speaker 2: for over a decade, putting notes in notion every every
29:50
Speaker 2: time I hear a story in a case study, and
29:52
Speaker 2: I just personally felt ready. I felt like I had
29:56
Speaker 2: I had enough stories, I had enough frameworks. I've developed
29:58
Speaker 2: these while teaching a lot of the framework site, I
30:01
Speaker 2: would kind of formalize for my students so I could
30:04
Speaker 2: convey everything I've learned to them. And so I just
30:07
Speaker 2: felt personally ready, and I had a publisher that was
30:11
Speaker 2: willing to help me get it out in the world.
30:13
Speaker 2: So that's the real answer, why now? And then who's
30:15
Speaker 2: the audience? We specifically use the term innovator because we
30:21
Speaker 2: debated it right. It was like, under it's probably too
30:24
Speaker 2: narrow because I think you can still even if you're
30:28
Speaker 2: not the founder, you can still make an enormous difference
30:31
Speaker 2: in many types of rules across healthcare, and so I
30:35
Speaker 2: didn't want to narrow it so much. We have an
30:37
Speaker 2: obsession over being a founder, and actually we're seeing that
30:40
Speaker 2: become kind of now that it's easier than ever to
30:42
Speaker 2: start a company, it's becoming a little bit of a
30:44
Speaker 2: problem for I was actually just having rug with the
30:47
Speaker 2: Stanford professor who teaches CS and undergrad was like, we
30:51
Speaker 2: can't keep students around, like it's they're making it too
30:54
Speaker 2: easy for them to quit and start companies, and you know,
30:58
Speaker 2: and then like we don't have students here on campus
31:00
Speaker 2: already wants to start a company, but they can't hire
31:01
Speaker 2: anyone because everybody wants to be a founder. And I
31:04
Speaker 2: think there's you know, being a founder is a is
31:07
Speaker 2: a very cool experience and it's very intense, and people
31:09
Speaker 2: need to like really self assess if that's the role
31:12
Speaker 2: they want. And so I think that and I tell
31:15
Speaker 2: my students this all the time, of like actually working
31:20
Speaker 2: at a company and having that experience and learning from
31:23
Speaker 2: other people's mistakes is a great first experience before starting
31:28
Speaker 2: a company. You don't need to start a company right
31:30
Speaker 2: out of school. You can if you want. But like,
31:33
Speaker 2: there are a lot of ways to learn about healthcare,
31:37
Speaker 2: learn about innovation, learn about digital health that is on
31:43
Speaker 2: someone else's dying essentially, So that is you know, who
31:46
Speaker 2: I'm writing for, And I would say generally the book
31:50
Speaker 2: is more for people that are coming into healthcare. If
31:54
Speaker 2: you're you probably you know some of the chapters are
31:56
Speaker 2: probably yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this, I know this,
31:58
Speaker 2: I know this, I do you know to chapters just
32:00
Speaker 2: on the stakeholders history of why we are where we are.
32:05
Speaker 2: And I think that's like really helpful for people to
32:07
Speaker 2: get up to speed. But if you're someone who's been
32:10
Speaker 2: working in healthcare, you can probably skip through some things
32:13
Speaker 2: and then find some hopefully helpful pieces of wisdom later
32:17
Speaker 2: on in the book.
32:18
Speaker 1: Well, I definitely did. There's a couple of the footnotes.
32:20
Speaker 1: I went back and looked up some of the data
32:22
Speaker 1: and studies that you had, So I'm very appreciative for
32:25
Speaker 1: your writing it. You know, you've been a professor for
32:27
Speaker 1: more than ten years at Columbia. What is the course
32:31
Speaker 1: cover and what have there been any success stories from
32:34
Speaker 1: your students coming out and starting companies starting companies.
32:37
Speaker 2: I would say a lot of my students now are
32:40
Speaker 2: like execs set a lot of the digital health companies
32:43
Speaker 2: in New York, which is super cool to see. So
32:46
Speaker 2: the course that I teach that I created is called
32:48
Speaker 2: Investing in Digital Health, and I share the frameworks that
32:54
Speaker 2: I share in the book around building gable digital health companies.
33:02
Speaker 2: And then because I learn by doing and the classes
33:06
Speaker 2: that resonated most with me as a student were experiential
33:10
Speaker 2: in nature, I bring that to the classrooms. So what
33:12
Speaker 2: we do is every day we have a different founder
33:16
Speaker 2: that comes pitches their business and uses a real pitch deck.
33:19
Speaker 2: I make them use their most recent pitch deck. And
33:22
Speaker 2: the students are the vcs, and they're in groups of four.
33:26
Speaker 2: They have these I make them name their VC firms
33:29
Speaker 2: and they listen to the pitch, they ask questions, and
33:32
Speaker 2: then they write up an investment memo. And they're not
33:35
Speaker 2: just learning about how to evaluate a company, but they're
33:37
Speaker 2: learning how to have that conversation with their classmates, their
33:41
Speaker 2: group of investors. And I make the groups very diverse.
33:44
Speaker 2: They all have at least one international student. They all
33:47
Speaker 2: have someone with the finance background. They also want the
33:49
Speaker 2: healthcare background, so they can learn to work together to
33:53
Speaker 2: come to a decision, which is yes I want to
33:56
Speaker 2: investor no I don't want to invest in the rationale
33:58
Speaker 2: why it's funny looking back a few years ago, I
34:02
Speaker 2: did an analysis of like, are they actually good at this?
34:05
Speaker 2: And the answer is yes, they're actually good at this.
34:07
Speaker 2: Some of my early companies included health which was Grand
34:10
Speaker 2: Rounds at the time. You know they he oh and pitched.
34:15
Speaker 2: One of my first classes did very well. Maven Kate
34:18
Speaker 2: from Maven pitched in twenty sixteen. She and you know
34:21
Speaker 2: obviously ended up doing very well, so it's fun to
34:25
Speaker 2: kind of see the companies that have pitched now evolve
34:28
Speaker 2: and look back. So I save every single memo I
34:32
Speaker 2: you know, look at kind of you know, there's probably
34:34
Speaker 2: twelve memos per case. So that's class and it's really fun.
34:39
Speaker 2: It's an elective I now because I don't live in
34:41
Speaker 2: New York anymore, so I now do it as a
34:42
Speaker 2: block week. So I come in for a week and
34:46
Speaker 2: we do it full time for a week. So it's
34:47
Speaker 2: very intense, but then they get all the credits that
34:49
Speaker 2: they would have gotten over a semester and it's easier
34:52
Speaker 2: for that.
34:53
Speaker 1: Sounds fun. Yeah, I think I need to take that.
34:55
Speaker 2: Come join us. Yeah. I teach at the end of August,
34:58
Speaker 2: right before the fall term, and I also teach now,
35:00
Speaker 2: I also teach at Harvard Medical School, so I teach
35:03
Speaker 2: a class that's kind of the opposite. So my class
35:05
Speaker 2: at Columbia Business School is mostly teaching healthcare and digital
35:08
Speaker 2: health to business students. But at har Medical School, which
35:11
Speaker 2: is it's a graduate course for clinicians in leadership, I
35:15
Speaker 2: basically teach them the opposite. So like they come with
35:17
Speaker 2: deep clinical expertise and then kind of like get them
35:20
Speaker 2: up to speed on startups. So it's fun.
35:23
Speaker 1: I'm so curious about that Harvard class. Where do you
35:26
Speaker 1: think the biggest blind spots are or what are the
35:29
Speaker 1: bigger blind spots that you've seen that clinicians have.
35:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually the direct opposite of tech. So someone
35:35
Speaker 2: comes from tech, they understand the world of possible solutions
35:39
Speaker 2: from a tech standpoint, but they don't necessarily understand the
35:44
Speaker 2: problem as intimately as they need to, whereas on the
35:47
Speaker 2: clinician side, they will know the problem better than anyone else,
35:52
Speaker 2: but they don't necessarily have an idea of like the
35:55
Speaker 2: possible universe of solutions, and so they just don't know
35:59
Speaker 2: where to start a lot of times, or they pick
36:02
Speaker 2: something that they think sounds like a good solution and
36:05
Speaker 2: are like so wedded to it versus recognizing that not
36:09
Speaker 2: only is there a universe of solutions that might be right,
36:13
Speaker 2: but that will probably change, and you want to you
36:17
Speaker 2: want to iterate and test new things out and build
36:21
Speaker 2: with the feedback that you're getting in mind. So actually
36:25
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, cross disciplined teams I think
36:27
Speaker 2: work the best because you kind of bring both of
36:29
Speaker 2: those worlds together. You have, you know, one who's really
36:33
Speaker 2: good at product and users, studying users and getting that feedback,
36:38
Speaker 2: and then the other one that kind of intimately understands
36:40
Speaker 2: the problem set.
36:42
Speaker 1: Gosh, there's a million questions I want to ask around that,
36:44
Speaker 1: but you know, we only have limited time here, so
36:46
Speaker 1: I wanted to actually dive into a little bit. And
36:49
Speaker 1: this is an unfair question because you mentioned you had
36:51
Speaker 1: fifty one investments, but you know, what are some of
36:53
Speaker 1: your favorite children today? What are you most excited about.
36:59
Speaker 1: I'm putting you on the spot.
37:00
Speaker 2: I apologize, I know, so I'm gonna I'm gonna or.
37:03
Speaker 1: Maybe categories that might be a better way to say it.
37:06
Speaker 2: Well, I'm gonna give a fair answer by I'm on
37:08
Speaker 2: two boards of two companies I invested in. So one
37:12
Speaker 2: is Collective Health and we invested them very early at
37:14
Speaker 2: Rock Health, and they are really helping empower the consumer
37:20
Speaker 2: through the way most of us are are insured, which
37:23
Speaker 2: is through our employers, and so they help employees manage
37:28
Speaker 2: their their benefits, UH find the best care and essentially
37:33
Speaker 2: navigate the insurance that's given to us. And so that
37:36
Speaker 2: has been really fun to be on the board there
37:39
Speaker 2: and help the company grow. It's obviously a much later
37:43
Speaker 2: stage company and then on the other side company I'm
37:45
Speaker 2: an investor, and that's at this post series A. It's
37:50
Speaker 2: called Cofertility, and it's a really awesome company because my
37:54
Speaker 2: one of my my biggest regrets in life is not
37:57
Speaker 2: freezing my eggs. In my twenties, I struggled with infertility
38:00
Speaker 2: for many years. I'm very fortunate to have one miracle
38:05
Speaker 2: child through IVF, but it is something that I'm personally
38:09
Speaker 2: very passionate about, and fertility care is just like so
38:12
Speaker 2: broken in this country. And so our model at Cofertility
38:15
Speaker 2: is egg sharing, and women can freeze their eggs entirely
38:18
Speaker 2: for free when donating half to a family that can
38:21
Speaker 2: otherwise conceive. So we work with families women who've had
38:26
Speaker 2: breast cancer who you know, weren't able to freeze their
38:29
Speaker 2: eggs and need to use an egg donor, for gay
38:31
Speaker 2: couples that need an egg donor, single moms and dads
38:36
Speaker 2: that need an egg donor. And so we've basically rewritten
38:40
Speaker 2: the entire egg donation industry, which previously was like quite
38:44
Speaker 2: a cottage industry and quite honestly icky because it was
38:48
Speaker 2: just shrouded in secrecy and anonymity. Whereas like we were
38:52
Speaker 2: just like, what's everything that's wrong with this? Talk? We
38:55
Speaker 2: talked to parents that used egg donation, we talked to
38:58
Speaker 2: donors who Previously, you know, it was a different group, right,
39:01
Speaker 2: it was only people who are doing it for money.
39:03
Speaker 2: Now we get it people who are doing it more altruistically.
39:06
Speaker 2: And then most importantly, we talk to donor conceive people
39:09
Speaker 2: because that's like a group that this is a product
39:12
Speaker 2: of what we're doing. Yet they are never consulted, and
39:14
Speaker 2: there are very vocal groups that and there's a group
39:17
Speaker 2: at Harvard that has done some studies around it where
39:21
Speaker 2: most donor conceived people don't like the idea that their
39:24
Speaker 2: birth was because of a financial transaction and just like
39:28
Speaker 2: hearing that learning from them and what and also the
39:31
Speaker 2: fact that they feel like they should have access to
39:34
Speaker 2: information about their genetic donor and being shut out because
39:40
Speaker 2: their parents made a deal with an egg bank feels
39:44
Speaker 2: very unfair to them. So we only do open donations
39:47
Speaker 2: or at least open id at eighteen, so when the
39:49
Speaker 2: person's eighteen, they can find this information. And it has
39:52
Speaker 2: been so rewarding to build that out because it's like
39:56
Speaker 2: it's just truly very game changing for everyone involved.
40:00
Speaker 1: I mean, I imagine you get asked to be on a
40:01
Speaker 1: lot of boards, but it sounds like you're applying that
40:04
Speaker 1: lens of impact and the downstream parties to where you're
40:09
Speaker 1: choosing to spend your time. Is that a fair way
40:12
Speaker 1: to say it.
40:12
Speaker 2: That's a good way to say it.
40:13
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean between all the different things. You're an author,
40:17
Speaker 1: you're on these boards, you're a lecturer, professor, you know,
40:22
Speaker 1: where do you want to spend your time the next
40:25
Speaker 1: I don't know, five ten years.
40:26
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love the setup I have because you know,
40:31
Speaker 2: when I was at when I was running Rock Health,
40:34
Speaker 2: it was like one hundred percent all the time. I
40:37
Speaker 2: didn't have a shower where work was not on my mind,
40:42
Speaker 2: and it was so all encompassing. And so I you know,
40:48
Speaker 2: my husband and I both kind of made personal professional
40:52
Speaker 2: decision that having this like multi hyphen it fully flexible
40:58
Speaker 2: career where we're focusing on the things that are I
41:02
Speaker 2: don't know, piecemeal. I mean, being on the board is
41:05
Speaker 2: a very big responsibility, but it is not a full
41:08
Speaker 2: time responsibility. I'm not in the trenches. Uh, And so
41:12
Speaker 2: I live, I sleep well at night. I you know,
41:16
Speaker 2: we last year spent a month in Japan, you know,
41:20
Speaker 2: just spend a month in San Francisco we were. I
41:23
Speaker 2: now live in London. I having that sort of flexibility
41:28
Speaker 2: is absolutely where I want to continue for the next
41:31
Speaker 2: ten years. I would say, I've been kind of vocal
41:34
Speaker 2: about this. I'm not angel investing anymore. The early stage.
41:38
Speaker 2: I'm done for now with early stage. I'm moving to
41:41
Speaker 2: kind of later stage support only because like this concept
41:46
Speaker 2: of like fewer deeper engagements is more appealing to It's
41:52
Speaker 2: kind of like a few years ago I decided I
41:53
Speaker 2: wouldn't do any fast fashion shopping anymore. I was like,
41:56
Speaker 2: I'm done with Zara, I'm done with Mango, Like I
41:59
Speaker 2: want fewer, better pieces, and so that sort of like
42:04
Speaker 2: same mentality, I would think is like my engagement with startups,
42:08
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to have twenty startup advisory positions.
42:12
Speaker 2: I want maybe one more board position, maybe three board positions,
42:15
Speaker 2: because those are so meaningful and being able to support
42:18
Speaker 2: the founder at that level is so much more rewarding
42:22
Speaker 2: to me. And then you know, I think I've just
42:24
Speaker 2: learned a lot with angel investing, and you get forgotten about,
42:27
Speaker 2: like I have deals where like I'm like, hey, guys,
42:30
Speaker 2: like I haven't had an update in years. What's going on?
42:32
Speaker 2: I mean you or like a founder leaves and the
42:35
Speaker 2: new CEO takes over, or you know, things happen and
42:39
Speaker 2: you become less important to the company, which is fine.
42:42
Speaker 2: I mean you want the companies to grow you, but
42:47
Speaker 2: it's an engagement that is not as meaningful as the
42:53
Speaker 2: board work that I've been doing last couple of years.
42:56
Speaker 1: No, that makes total sense. The way I like to
42:59
Speaker 1: wrap these conversations is to really discuss a life lesson
43:03
Speaker 1: that's either from your personal life or your professional life
43:05
Speaker 1: that really helps drive you or what you see as
43:07
Speaker 1: your mission. Is there something that comes to mind that
43:10
Speaker 1: fits that framework. Is there some mission or a lesson
43:13
Speaker 1: that you learn that you know informs what you see
43:15
Speaker 1: as your mission going forward.
43:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have always just wanted to be a cheerleader
43:23
Speaker 2: for folks who are willing to give it a try
43:27
Speaker 2: to fix health care, and I've done that in a
43:31
Speaker 2: lot of like one on one, but my work more
43:34
Speaker 2: recently has been like how can I do that one
43:37
Speaker 2: to many? And writing a book is a good way
43:41
Speaker 2: of doing that, Like I can give that advice to
43:43
Speaker 2: you know, coffee meetings every day for you know, a month,
43:49
Speaker 2: or I can teach and I have, you know, seventy
43:52
Speaker 2: five students in my class, and that's one to seventy five.
43:55
Speaker 2: Or I can do it through a book and then
43:57
Speaker 2: you know, thousands of people can be reached by that.
44:00
Speaker 2: And so trying to just help as many people as
44:04
Speaker 2: possible feel empowered, supported, inspired to make meaningful change in
44:09
Speaker 2: healthcare is my mission and it'll be my mission until
44:13
Speaker 2: I retire.
44:14
Speaker 1: Well said, thank you for sharing that.
44:16
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It was a fun conversation.
44:18
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, we could have done another two hours.
44:20
Speaker 2: We'll have to have you back on Talk two.
44:24
Speaker 1: When you write your second book, or maybe you start
44:27
Speaker 1: another company, we'll do this again.
44:30
Speaker 2: I don't know anither of those things will happen, but
44:32
Speaker 2: so maybe, yeah, maybe.
44:34
Speaker 1: We'll have to do We'll do an update on the
44:36
Speaker 1: markets maybe in a year.
44:38
Speaker 2: Awesome Glad Darren introduced us.
44:41
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for joining us for our
44:42
Speaker 1: latest episodes, and please make sure to click the follow
44:45
Speaker 1: button on your favorite podcast app or site so that
44:48
Speaker 1: you never miss a discussion with the leaders of healthcare innovation.
44:51
Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Palmer, and you've been listening to the Vanguards
44:53
Speaker 1: of Healthcare podcast by Bloomberg Intelligence. Until next time, Take care.
45:15
Speaker 3: MOSS bases US most ESS bases,