Latest / Skin Anarchy / Creating Blockbuster Beauty Using Microfluidics And Biotechnology ft. Capsum

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Creating Blockbuster Beauty Using Microfluidics And Biotechnology ft. Capsum · Skin Anarchy

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is your host ECTA.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I am very excited about this episode because this is the first time I'm getting to interview true um innovators behind some of the most, you know, iconic products that we see, not only in our skincare industry, but also in the beauty industry.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is such a cool turn for us here at Skincare Anarchy because it's really the first time that we're doing this.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very, very exciting for me.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the founder and or co-founder and CEO of Capsom.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: And they are a um, you know, biotech company that creates some of the most amazing um microfluidic uh technologies that we see in a lot of products like Alginists.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: You guys might have seen them in um some products by Chanel and a lot more.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, please welcome to the show uh Sebastian Bardon.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, Sebastian.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Ecta, and thank you for your very nice words.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I'm very excited and I um am so honored to be hosting you because I've been such a fan, you know, of uh what you guys are doing for so many brands, you know, and what you're providing, the technology you're providing.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't wait to learn from you actually, because I think microfluidic technology is something we don't really know about as consumers.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: We just see it and we're always mesmerized, right?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: By the beautiful beads and the beautiful um look and feel of it, but we don't really understand and comprehend like what the real science is.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So from that perspective, I'm very excited.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I want to get started though, Sebastian, about you know, in terms of like learning about yourself and the brand and how everything started.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you could kind of you know walk us down memory lane and tell us a little bit about that.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually I am a physicist by education.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I studied in the US and in France and have a PhD in physics.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Then I started working uh actually on automotive depollution systems.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, as you can imagine, it was nothing, it was very hot environment and uh very robust, so nothing to do with skincare or beauty.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I did that during eight years, and after eight years, I decided I wanted to go back to school because I love to learn and to learn about the business side of life after learning about the science and the technology.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to uh Sloan School at MIT during two years, and I started CapSum just after these two years.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's really cool.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's I feel like that's the common ground for all of us who spend so long in education, right?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you never know uh when you're gonna go back.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: But that's cool.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, what made you go into microflu uh fluidics then?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: What what led to the discovery of your you know, of your work?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I it it was really meeting people, and it was actually meeting my co-founder.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think when I finished loan, I was really uh undecided on what I wanted to do.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I had a discussion with the specifically with um Professor Dave Waits, who is at uh applied engineering at Harvard University, and with Jerome Bibette at ESPCI in Paris.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they really had this idea that maybe we could use microfluidic, which at that stage was very early stage, and they had been pioneered of that uh science and this technology.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was used purely in biotech at that time to do sorting, genomics, and all this kind of thing.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we wanted to take it out of the labs to bring it to manufacturing site and to do new products and new materials, basically.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could um do us the favor of explaining this to us, Sebastian, in terms of like what is microfluidic uh technology, just for the consumers that are listening in, and you know, to help us understand in layman terms, you know, what is really the the premise of this type of technology?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: So microfluidics is really about um having fluids and usually oil, water, but also the ingredients, the perfume, everything you find in a cosmetic formula or in a food formula, it can be applied in different industries, of course.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but really manipulating these fluids in very small channels in order to avoid them to mix.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you put fluids in a in a big pipe, basically they always mix immediately.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And what microfluidics enabled you to do because you work in a very confined environment and very small tubes and pipes, um, is to have no mixing so you can manipulate very precisely everything you do.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, if you want to play with microphytics, you can put a drop of oil into a drop of water, then everything in a drop of oil, then everything in a drop of water, and do that as much as you want and put different active ingredients in the different layers.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can put different colors in the different layers.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: I it won't be useful because your eyes will mix all the colors.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but really for for the exercise, you have to imagine that you can draw any liquid structure and put in every compartment anything you like, and we can do that, we can achieve it.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's like you like so.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: When I think of like some of the brands you work with, like you I know Alginus was one of them, right?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So like the little beads that we see for everyone listening, you know, if you see products with those beautiful spheres inside, um, that's microfluidics.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like each bead has I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, has the two different types of fluids, right?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like oil and water, something like that.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So in in the engine's product, you see uh yellow little beads, and they are the oil phase, and this oil phase it put in in uh the liquid phase.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: So so they're not mixed in the actual sphere, they're mixed in, you know, like the the liquid the spheres of the oil and the the liquid is the actual fluid that they're suspended.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right, okay.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and you you know, a very easy way to look at it is if you're in in your kitchen and you do vinegate or mayonnaise, for instance, you would put oil and vinegar, which is water-based, and you will mix and everything is mixing, and and at the end you have something that is cloudy and that contain both in a way that is not completely controlled.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: You could, with our technology, do a vinaigrette with very well-defined drops of oil that would be sitting into the vinegar in a very well-controlled manner so that you would see each of them, you would control the amount of interface, and you will decide to put whatever active ingredient or flavors you want in any space.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: I like that a lot.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's really for me, it's so interesting that you guys have been doing this because I mean, even now we are having this conversation in the beauty industry where people are always talking about, you know, is it um oil suspension?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is it you know, water-based, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we talk about this a lot because I'm always seeing products with, like, for example, peptides, you know, like a lot of peptide-based products or a lot of um, you know, certain growth factors might be in there.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then we, you know, I always run into this problem where a lot of these products are, you know, they're creating so many different SKUs, right?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I always wonder, it's like, you know, you could combine it if you had the right technology.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So this is where I find you guys to be so interesting in the sense that I mean, could somebody do that?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, if they had something like, you know, like epidermal growth factor, right?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or and then they wanted to also combine something with um, you know, with other actives, could they use your technology to do something like that?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we we recently launched uh for Brenda a product where you would add two different colors of um little beads, and that was to indicate that the two different colors would contain two different active ingredients.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we we can do that and multiply this approach as much as you want.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really because I think that that's where the industry is kind of headed, you know, from what I'm seeing is this idea of like, you know, minimalistic skincare, but you're still not sacrificing, you know, what kind of um actives, what kind of ingredients you want to put into your product.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just I find this to be so fascinating, you know, being able to use your technology for that reason, you know, alone.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, right now, as I'm sure you've seen, many people have those 12 products, right, in their skincare routine, but a lot of consumers are gravitating away from that, you know, they're saying, I don't have time for this, you know, it's uh impossible to use 10 products a day, you know.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: So many brands uh that I talk to, they're always, you know, kind of I think on the fence, you know, some of them are doing something about it, others are still going with the conventional route, but I think it makes sense for me, you know, even as a consumer, if I see a product with something like this kind of technology that allows me to know that everything I need is here, you know, and it's it's scientifically viable.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can use it and it's going to work, you know.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to actually um ask you about that is that this shift that you guys made.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you had mentioned in the previous years, you know, this technology was not used in beauty or any of these kinds of industries.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, what made you guys want to come into the beauty industry?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what was the driving force behind that?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's it's uh it's uh it's an interesting question.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure we know because when we started, Dave and Jerome and myself, we didn't know anything about the beauty industry.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we just we just thought that um uh the encapsulation would be interesting for the skincare.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: We also thought that making visual product would be very impactful in that industry.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's that's where we started.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um we we also found a first customer in beauty.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, when we started the company, we could have gone to food or to pharmaceuticals, but our first customer was was Amore Pacific in Korea.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: They were very excited by by what we were providing them, and so I guess it's more our customer that decided for us than ourselves.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love Amore Pacific.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I loved interviewing them when I did.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're a really great brand.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I think it shows when brands are like, you know, when they're ready to make that change, it shows.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad that they were the first, you know, first to approach you guys because this is really interesting for beauty, you know.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can all utilize this somehow, especially I know you've worked with um also like you know, skincare is kind of I think obvious, like how it works, but also just um can you give us like an example of working with like a beauty brand that was not skincare related?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: We we we today we're doing about 15% of our annual sales doing makeup.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh we we did uh color cosmetic for Rose Inc., an American indie brand, which is uh very interesting.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh what we did in that case is we encapsulated pigment into visible bubbles, visible beads, and and again it's it's it's all the question about uh you know making a visual that tells a story, and in that case, encapsulated pigment is a very interesting story.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's also about the skin feel because if you try this product, it's extremely fresh for a foundation product because your first contact is with the water outside.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: You you will burst the bubble containing the pigment after you start uh applying the product.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So the first contact you have is pure water actually.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so um this is the angle we took on on this uh on on the makeup side.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: We we do a lot of makeup for Chanel.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some some of their famous makeup in Les Beige, Audit ou de Blush, and uh touche de teint are product we we do with them.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've seen that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I loved that product when it first came out.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was so interesting to look at it, you know.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I I like that product a lot.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's very cool.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think, you know, one of my big questions is actually around the, you know how everyone right now, I I don't know if you've noticed, but it a lot of people are really talking about like delivery systems and skincare, you know, for example, they're they're really honing in on this.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um more importantly, I think your technology really fascinates me because I I'm I'm curious from this idea of, you know, once you get something onto the surface of the skin in a way that is like, you know, you have these different um suspensions and it's like an emulsion kind of thing.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you have these different um, you know, water soluble, oil soluble, you have both of them, those kind of ingredients on the skin.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: What is, you know, is there anything in terms of benefits of getting those products more readily into the skin layers, you know, deeper into the top layers that you've seen, you know, any data that you've seen from your the brand, you know, partners you have that you know shows that this kind of technology helps in that?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I think we ourselves at Capsu, we we don't go into the the detail about how the active ingredient penetrates the skin and everything because um it's it's really mostly the work of the active ingredient companies.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we we have just started developing active ingredients, so we will slowly go there.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you're right, we we see a lot of demand in the industry today for I think we had a lot on clean, and that's clean, natural, but now we want efficacy on in addition to just very clean and very natural formulas.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the the delivery system are going to be back, as well as all the science and technology on the active ingredients.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's really yeah, because I was, you know, I was thinking about you guys in the sense of like, you know, I wrote a paper a while ago.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know um if all of you listening out there had a chance to see it, but I it was about exosomes because exosomes are everywhere right now, right?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I was talking about it, you know, in the paper and it was a review, but then I was thinking to myself, exosomes are made to degrade, you know what I mean?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're in the body, like naturally, they're made to be like made and do their function, but then they degrade very quickly.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: So to see your technology, I could see it being a great way to like preserve them, you know, in a way.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you were to insert an exosome kind of technology into what you guys create, it could become like this dual, you know what I mean, way of delivering them in a way.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's where a lot of brands might see their products are degrading on the shelf with exosomes because exosomes are not by themselves stable.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there's a stability component, right?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: That that's actually that that's true because when we do microphylitic skincare, yeah, or microphytic makeup for that matter, we don't use any surfactant to stabilize the emotion because we have these very big bubbles or beads that are at the oil.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we have very few interface between the water and the oil.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the need to stabilize is much less.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't use any surfactant, we don't need them, and that allows you to put structure in in the external phase made of this surfactant, they will be much more stable than they would be in a normal immersion.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that sounds like so much more like logical to me because yeah, I was when I like I said, you know, I was thinking about the technology and it's great.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Lysosomes, exosomes, everything is great, right?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of delivery.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you keep it stable?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: On the shelf, like in the product.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I think you guys are so unique because you're really providing, like you said, that encasing, you know, and so that's very, very beneficial.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: If I were a brand, I would really consider that because it's I it more so these days, I think it's about staying stable on the shelf, uh, you know, on the shelf as a consumer, buys your product, they want to make sure it's still working, you know, 12 months down the road.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you with these kind of technologies, even though they're very novel and they're coming out, you still have this problem that needs to be solved, you know.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I think it would be really cool to see you guys combine with these kind of companies because um, you know, in their efforts, because it would make sense from a scientific standpoint, in my opinion.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very cool.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I hope you do.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I would love to see that.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but my question, my next question is um, so how do you differentiate differentiate yourself from like, you know, just other competitors in this industry?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know you guys were the first to do this, and uh that I've seen.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so how do you deal with that?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because I know a lot of uh companies are coming up nowadays, you know, that are probably mimicking your product or creating something similar.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what's the differentiating factor with you guys?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I I think it's always good to see competition copying you.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's um that's always a good sign, the sign that you're going in the good direction.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: We are still investing a lot of money and around 20% of our annual sales in RD.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: We do innovation by working on the formula, but also working on the manufacturing process, as you understood from the very small uh pipes to do the product.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we have this balance of extremely strong engineering innovation and formulation innovation that is unusual because you most of the time people do a lot of formulation innovation, but it's they don't really want to change their process or their manufacturing line.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: We at Capsule won't care.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: We are able to change all the machines because suddenly we find a better technology, that's no problem, or to adapt.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we're very flexible and very innovative on that, and we want to to keep that hedge.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the only answer to your question is innovate, innovate, innovate, and innovate more.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's I love that.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you're so heavily invested in that you know, part because I think sometimes people they'll make something great and then they fizzle out, you know what I mean?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: They don't keep investing in that.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really cool that you guys are so forward with your RD because um we need that, you know, in this industry, especially, especially skincare, the way I see it, you know, from my perspective, because there's a lot of there's a lot of clutter, you know, in the industry.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think brands right now are trying to find their way, you know, and create a impact and make sure that their products are you know standing out.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think investing in this kind of technology is it's the right step.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're if you're trying to create a product, and I'm just speaking to all of our audience out there, I know a lot of brand founders are listening in, you know, and you know, if you guys want to create something that's unique, you have to find the people behind the unique technologies, you know what I mean?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you should really look into that before you, you know, embark on this because we have so many serums, so many moisturizers that are just, you know, kind of the same that they've been for 10 years now.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's not much difference.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: But immediately, for example, you know, Sebastian, when I see, like, for example, we had talked about Alginist, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: When you look at Alginist product, you see that there's a difference here.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you see the beads, you see that there's some thought that's gone behind this, and there's definitely a value because you can see the results in your actual skin.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, those technologies are worth investing in, and more so than anything else, more so than marketing, you know, more so than anything else.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a lot of value there, you know, for consumers.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad that you guys are very heavy on the RD.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I I wanna I want to ask you, I want to actually ask you a question um in terms of like working with you guys, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm a brand, say tomorrow I start a brand and I want to work with you, you know, what's the process like?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how can I reach out to you guys?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: How can I get in touch with you and and really work with you and get the process started?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, really, in terms of reaching out, it's very easy.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me on my LinkedIn, you can find the contact local contacts on our website, I believe.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, we're going to come back to trade shows in the US starting uh early uh 2024.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: We have been we had been absent for the last 10 years, but uh we'll come back.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they will be very easy to to find us in the US and and in Europe as well.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: The way it works, um we will never try to sell you something uh that we have on the shelf.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: We will always listen to you, try to understand what your brand is about, what your dream is about, and then we will design a product with you.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: We we never sell something from the shelf directly.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: So what is that process like?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like in terms of designing something new, like within your existing framework?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it really depends on our customers, our client, the brands, because we sometimes we work with brands that know exactly what they want.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and sometimes they they would know what they want for the active ingredients, they know what they want for the the visual of the product and the packaging.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes Um on the opposite, we work with people that just want to launch a brand because they have an audience, they have a channel, they have the ability to sell something, but they need our help to really create the concept and develop the product.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we're happy with both.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's I mean, that's interesting because I think, yeah, so I can see that why some, like for example, CSOs might know, you know, this is what we're doing, help us figure out how to do it, you know.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: But then for I always think about the smaller brands that are they might have the funding, but they don't know, you know, where to start.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's it's good that you work with people, you know, one-on-one, because I think um this is a realm that a lot of new brand founders don't know much about, which is accessing these kind of technologies.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like a lot of times we see things people, you know, huge companies like Estee Lauder, we see huge companies that are, you know, um doing this and they have access to this information.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But there are brands out there that I know would, you know, they'd love to be able to do this, but sometimes they don't know the best way, you know, to kind of go about it.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really cool that you guys are working with, you know, people one-on-one.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and we're very happy to to work with new brands and indie brands.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: We've done it a lot in the US over the last three, four years, and uh it's it has gone very well.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I like that.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's really I mean, accessibility I think is the king of you know, uh finding the best products, right?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: For I mean, if you become accessible, then you know, brands everywhere, whether it's indie whether it's large brands, like they should be able to access technologies.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the questions I did have for you, Sebastian.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Is this idea of where do you see our industry, you know, in terms of like the skincare and beauty industry when it comes to innovation?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like we're moving forward, or do you feel like there's only a finite amount of innovation?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just your opinion about that.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think there is actually a huge amount of innovation because there is such a strong ask from consumers for clean and for sustainable and for high efficacy, and also for the aesthetic of the product.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the demand of the consumer has actually increased significantly over the last I would say five to ten years, and and it's more and more and more we really need to find solutions.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I I you know, as much as every six months I think, oh my god, uh maybe we we don't have space to innovate more, there is always space, and the space is huge.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't now I can sleep very well.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know we will do a lot of innovation in the coming years just because the market is asking for them.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm glad to hear that because I get lost, you know what I mean?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just like I think all the consumers out there can relate.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: We get lost in the is there something going on in the background that we don't know about or not?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because people are always coming out with new new things, and I think um in the innovation side, I'm always like you know, wondering how much you know headway are we making, how much more innovation are we really producing, you know, yearly.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting to hear that perspective.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, but you know, it's there are innovations you see, and we we have specialized a lot in that because we see you can really um we we you you can really see a uh capsule product when you walk into the duty free at the airport because of the small bubbles and they are very identifiable.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: But there are also things in our products and in many other products that you don't see.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to give you an example about why I think innovation is going to be more and more and more.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for instance, we have we opened two years ago a facility in Austin, Texas, and we wanted this facility to be best in class for sustainable manufacturing.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And to start that journey, we started with the water skincare product, as you know, are mostly made from water, and so we wanted sustainable water, which is a concept that you know is not that obvious.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what we ended up doing is finding an aquifer with inside a huge amount of natural, highly salted water.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's a resource that nobody cares about.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody can use it to feed humans, to feed animals, or to grow anything.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we decided to make a well that goes 1200 feet uh below the surface of the factory to take that water and then to desalinate the water using reverse osmosis and of course solar energy to get sustainable water.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And all our products in the US are made with this water.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you see, that's an innovation you don't see, but for me it's it's a very important innovation for the industry.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's huge.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really, really big.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's uh that's the kind of stuff we need to be you know to not deplete our natural resources.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool, Bastion.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's very, very interesting.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you guys just use like uh reverse osmosis, like the machines we see in like just normal labs, right?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like just a bigger version of that, or how what was the logistics of that?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds like a big you know it's just a much, much, much bigger version of that, but that's what it is, yes.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's so cool.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you use that water then.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can use that in the technologies, even for like beauty products, then um, because it's cleaned out.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the the standard for uh water in the beauty industry in the US are actually extremely stringent.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to remove the salt, but also really clean the water to cosmetic standard, which are actually more difficult to obtain than than drinkable water for cities.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you you you really need to push the envelope of cleaning your water very high to be able to do skincare product with it, and so we do that.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you ensure, for example, because I know I'm sure you guys have this, you know, really in-depth quality control stuff going on, right?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: In the back.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you ensure quality control for for a technology like this, you know, and maintaining consistency when you're developing your products for various brands?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is uh the process of that?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: You just need to measure and test a lot all the time.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it differs for every brand then, right?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like they get different reports, or it's like the same kind of testing?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, the the the the testing is is quite well standardized.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we I mean Capsuma has grown with uh luxury brands in France.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Initially, our first customer were uh luxury brand, the Chanel, the La Prairie, and these people.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, they have very strong demand on on that side.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we we learn with them, and so we apply this standard for every product we do, and as a result, that's okay for all the other people.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: See, I'm asking because like I'm just trying to figure out like if you are a brand, like for example, if you're a brand and you you know you're gonna be using such ingredients, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like say 10 ingredients, and I come to you and I say, These are 10 ingredients I want in my product, you know, and I want you guys to use your technology to put them together.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, would I have to then find a supplier to like bring you those ingredients and then you go through your own process of making sure they're aligned with your quality control?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or how does that work?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, working across the industry, you know, between suppliers, for example, like you know, whether it's ingredient suppliers, you know, and then you guys, and how does that whole process work?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh again, that's really a matter of who the brand is.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the brand comes with their own ingredients, sometimes they actually come with proprietary active ingredients.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And they have tested them and they are sure of them.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: So in that case, we don't do anything because we don't want to add costs that are not necessary.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people are uh less sure or they ask us to test for them, and in that case, we are happy to do it.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's really a discussion.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, then when you if you are an indie brand um and you want help into choosing what we think are the most reliable supplier of this or that active ingredient, we are also happy to help with that.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool, that's really cool.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you guys have that ability to like really help, you know, hold a can uh you know, customer's hand if they don't have the extra, you know, like the extra supplier.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can really guide them in that way.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right, absolutely.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and as I mentioned before, we we very recently started to also develop our own active ingredients, and um we we did that because we basically set up a precision indoor farm within our manufacturing facility in Austin.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: So now we can grow biomass without any impact on the environment and do the extract in the facility where we're going to produce your serum or your creams.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's really cool.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you guys are kind of becoming the like you can supply the ingredients then as well from this research.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: We were trying to do these from seed to jar and being as clean as we can uh with full traceability and full quality control.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I want to ask you then, you know, in terms of your opinion, because I'm in the process right now of creating like a seal, you know, and and it's a seal for scientific accuracy, right, for brands.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because the thing is, as I'm sure you know, Sebastian, there's no, there's nothing out there right now that ensures that what you're doing is, you know, as a brand, like it's gone through like clinical trials, it's gone through, you know, all these like the these hurdles that we have to go through.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like if, for example, if we're creating a drug or something like that, right, in medicine.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the questions that I'm, you know, I've incorporated into this, and I've also done, I had to do a lot of research around this was this idea of, you know, how do you make sure that what is coming in for like whatever you're using to manufacture your product, like whatever ingredient that is, if it's meeting the requirements of like, for example, like active levels, you know what I mean?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like stuff like that.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you have any way of measuring that?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you it what do you think about in terms of the industry?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Does the industry have something where there's a standard, you know, for ingredients that you know you have to meet in terms of, okay, if you're using this specific ingredient, it should be this active, you know what I mean?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And in some quantifiable way.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do you look at stuff like that?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I think we do, and our customers do as well.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think when and and the supplier of active ingredients, when they are serious, they would they would identify what is the molecule that is mostly responsible for the activity they claim, and then they will dose it.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So when you work with serious suppliers, and there are plenty of them on the market today, they will do that.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's not a requirement.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, as you say, it's it's more the way you think about your brand and what you want to achieve with it.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, one way is the supplier are going to measure, the brand is going to measure, we're going to measure.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's one side to view that.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: The other one is if you do precision indoor farming, because you control everything when your biomass is growing, you control the light, you control the wind, you control the watering, you control the color of the light, um the profile of ingredient in your plant is going to be always exactly the same.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a very measured uh growth that you're doing.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you know, that's very fascinating to me because I feel like, so if you know, for example, if I come to you and I say, I want things to be dosed in very like nano levels, right?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are some, like there are some ingredients, like for example, um, some actives that we are so used to seeing, but really what we're finding out as a scientific community, um, as I'm sure you've seen, is that like like microdosing is the next step, I feel like, you know, for a lot of things.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so with that in mind, you know, how can we really control that?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that it would be beneficial to go with capsom's technology if I am a brand that is in you know really invested in this idea of microdosing?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because that would be, I think, really cool, right?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: It to be able to use your beads to microdose and to put exact amounts you know of an uh ingredient in there rather than just randomly it's dispersed in a in a you know big container and we don't know how much is coming out every time you you know dispense it, that kind of thing.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we we we also do standard emotion.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we have the two processes.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: We mostly do microphytic product, but we also do um what I call normal emotion or standard emotion.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's this matter of putting the amount of active ingredients precisely and always the same, is really about do people work well on the floor in your factory or not?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And do you control what is done and do you measure?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think um we we we just it's for brands.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: The first advice is really find a reliable with high-quality controlled suppliers.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Then, of course, if you put the microdosine in the bubbles, um, it's it's going to be very interesting in terms of explaining your consumer what you're doing, uh, and the control is going to be very good.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's I especially with explaining to people, I think.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's really the the challenge, you know, explaining why you're doing what you're doing.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that that's interesting though, because I I ask because I feel like that is what a lot of people are trying to do, and that's why we're seeing things like exosomes, lysosomes, you know, all these different uh variations of what I think are very similar technologies, because people are trying to get to this point where you're starting to use specific doses.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Sebastian, the crazy part is that we're sitting here right now, you know, 2023 having this conversation about dosing in OTC products.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: But when I started this podcast, you will not believe I never saw this concept, you know, the idea of dose.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: It never it was nowhere.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like one of my first episodes was about that alone, about me talking about, you know, like why don't we have a dose, you know, for everything?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like there should be.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that is what I like.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: When I look at what you guys have made here, that's where immediately my brain, the first thing it thinks is that, okay, this is a it's a way to control the dose of what you're putting out there and to show consumers that you've done that.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like you said, capstan technology is visible.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can see it, you can see the beads, you can see the that it's there.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is it goes a long way for consumers.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we want to be able to visibly see that a brand has put in the time to think about that.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when it comes to OTC products, the regulations are very minimal in the US.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you, if you can add that in as a brand, for all my founders out there listening, if you can add that aspect in yourself by utilizing technologies that show visibly to consumers that you've you know thought about this and that you've actually considered this, that's huge.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that is for me, it's going to make me buy your product more because I'm going to know that you've put that thought in.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, I just find it to be fascinating.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in just three years, things have changed so much because it I didn't see it back then, you know, when I started skincare anarchy.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it will change faster and faster now because we measure more things.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have the ability to measure the the impact and and really what what product do for every people at a more granular level, so maybe for every individual, more and more.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: And also we we have this huge amount of data, and that's for your sleep, that's for your exercising.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: So very soon it's coming, it's going to come to beauty.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and really when you start measuring and you start measuring the impact or the amount you need, or you start using AI to understand who you are and so what you need, um, immediately after this dosing becomes important.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, I think the more educated we get as consumers, the brands will follow.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're right in the sense that it's going to, this is going to start expanding because I think consumers now they want that.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they want the information.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're all looking at our ingredient lists more and more, you know.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're all looking at, well, how much of what did you use?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: When, why, you know?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: And these questions are coming up now.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Where before it wasn't like that.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was like more about labels, you know, like, okay, well, this company made it, so it must be good, you know, or so-and-so made it, it must be good.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: But now with all the indie brands and all these, you know, new endeavors that we see, people are not asking and questioning more, which is I think great, you know.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: So um, I'm excited to see that you guys are growing and and to really expanding and you're at the frontier of this kind of technology because we need it, you know, we we do consumers need it, brands need it.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for everyone listening, there's definitely a lot to learn, you know, by studying uh more about technologies, more so than just brands themselves, because even brands need these kind of innovations, right?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what's really making them a great brand.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really urge you guys out there, if you're listening, you know, uh definitely do your homework.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have any questions, um, you can, you know, chime in, let us know.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: But Sebastian, thank you so much.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: This has been so great just to talk to you and learn from you because I didn't know anything about microfluidic technology uh when we sat down.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I'm better versed now.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, it was a great pleasure to talk to you and to try to explain as well as possible the technology and uh what we can provide.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone listening, uh, make sure you guys chime in and I will be back next time.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 40:33
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