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Are we spies? · Brilliant Minds?

• Olivia: back everyone to Brilliant Minds, Brains Banter and Being Human. I'm ⁓ ⁓ this is my loveliest of friends. This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Andrea: Andrea, hello, we kind of just got started. Olivia: gave Andrea no warning and hit the record button. Whoops! Not impulse control today. But as remember that we are off the clock, we are prowling the streets, and we cannot be bothered. I'm not wrong! Andrea: If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org. real. The of times I've called myself, unserious this week cannot be topped. So. ⁓ Olivia: Honestly, one of my favorite new caveats that I give to people is like, hey, let me be clear, I am not a medical professional. I'm also barely a professional. However. Andrea: Correct. Correct. Olivia: Because how many times do you have to give the caveat of like I'm not a medical professional what do know is Andrea: Yeah. Yes. Correct. Olivia: And I just figure everyone's so tired of hearing me say that that I had to like figure out a joke about it. ⁓ It also oddly enough relates to what we're talking about today, which is like, are the weird things about being a therapist? And I also think this is a very ironic topic because we talk a lot about weird therapists and how we are weird therapist prevention or anti weird therapists. ⁓ Andrea: No, I like it. I like it a lot. Yep. Olivia: But also recognizing there's like some weird things that come up as a therapist that other people in other jobs, there's just like other people don't think about or might not think about. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I'm glad we're like picking this, we're talking about this topic too, because I recently started watching the show Shrinking with my husband again. And I don't know, have you seen this show? Olivia: No, I've heard a little bit about it, but I haven't seen it. Andrea: Ugh, it's really interesting and watching it as a therapist has got me thinking a lot about the weirdness of being a therapist and the weirdness of some of the things that we can and cannot do and just all of the things that make our job really fucking weird. Olivia: like having to give a caveat that I'm not a medical professional all the time. ⁓ Andrea: Right, but we take insurance? Like, how does that make sense? Olivia: or like we know what we're talking about when we talk about mental health medication. You're like, well, I'm not a medical professional, but like that medication is whack and you should go back to your doctor and like get that checked. Andrea: Right? Yeah, yeah, right? Like, I had to make the caveat. So I know I'm not your psych, however, that med you should probably take at night. like. Olivia: Yeah, exactly. It's like, I'm wondering what it would be like if took that with a meal. ⁓ Andrea: Right? Like, hold on, let's think about this. Olivia: my gosh, so real. ⁓ I think one of, to me, one of the most obvious things that's weird about being a therapist is our goodbye to clients. Andrea: Yeah. Ooh, what goodbye. like ending, ending, like forever goodbye or like end of the day goodbye, like end of the session goodbye. Olivia: Both. But specifically, that's a fair question. was like, how many goodbyes are there? I was like, what? Am I supposed to be doing more goodbyes? Please don't tell me that. God, no. No, I'm talking about the like theoretical forever goodbye. Andrea: I know, I threw you off with that. ⁓ god no. Okay, yeah. Yeah. It is really weird. I think the part that I think about that's connected to that is like, well then why can't we go get margaritas next week? Olivia: That's weird! Bye. Andrea: Like, don't know what else to say, but it's like, we build these really intense, intimate relationships that are for the most part, like one sided, but right? then when we, yeah, exactly. And then when we get to the end, we're just like, ⁓ okay, go live your life now and ⁓ okay. Olivia: Yeah, I mean, yes, yeah, as they should. Yeah, it's the weirdest. There's not a goodbye that's like it. I mean, other than maybe like saying goodbye to a loved one and then they die. Andrea: No. Olivia: ⁓ Jesus. But I hear what you're saying. ⁓ Yeah, I hear what you're saying is like, there's this idea that like clients could come back and like, there are oftentimes that they do, but there's so many times that they don't and like you never hear of that person ever again. And like, that was goodbye. Andrea: there isn't! Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, or exactly, exactly. Olivia: but you don't know, but you don't know if they're gonna come back. So you have to treat every goodbye like ending out of therapy. Like it's a real like forever goodbye. Andrea: Yeah, like you don't even say goodbye to like a PCP that you're ending with. Like that's not even a thing. Olivia: Yeah, there's not a goodbye like it. Andrea: No, and I even remember like back when I lived in a small town and did in-person work, like said goodbye to someone and I knew it was going to be forever. And then like I moved away and then went back to visit, went through a drive-through and there they were. And I was like, what? Like that is so weird because it's like, well, I've this goodbye and we've said our goodbyes and we're never gonna see each other again and then I order coffee from you. Olivia: That's so weird. The goodbye is so weird because it's like such an intensely like personal relationship and you hold so much space and you care so much about that client and you have to say a forever goodbye. Like never knowing if they're going to be okay. Never knowing how things go for them. Never getting like really any update. And you have like Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: You should not, and this typically doesn't happen though, sometimes it does, but like you should not be reaching out to them. Like you cannot initiate anything. So you're just like left in the dark. Andrea: Correct. Correct. ⁓ Olivia: I mean, like, the client could be dead. We have no idea. We have no idea. Andrea: No, no, I'll put this out there too. Like, I don't know if you're this way, but I know I am. Every once in a while, I'll think about a client that I saw way back in the day, just like randomly, and I'll be like, I hope they're doing well. Or like, they really could be dead. ⁓ Olivia: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, I think that all the time. I also think that too, because in my old job, I was doing like home visits around the county that I live in. And anytime I'm around some home that I went to, always say, now, okay, I was working with older adults. So it's very safe to assume like, oh, I'm thinking of that person, they're probably dead. That's actually like, probably really accurate, sadly, but like, true. But I think every time I pass, Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Olivia: It's like, boom, remember that conversation, remember that person. I can't remember names, like, nope. But like, I can remember their story. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's so bizarre, because I'm just like, you even if my spouse is in the car, I can't be like, ⁓ yeah, I, you know, I visited a bubble. I can't say that. So I'm just like, ⁓ cute. Right, yes. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, same. But the interaction. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, well that's another weird thing, right? Is that we hold these stories in. Like we don't talk to people about them other than like colleagues or like our supervisors or people within our jobs, right? But even then, when you're in private practice, you're not talking about your clients around or you shouldn't be. know, like you and I do occasionally, but we're colleagues, right? But we're not. Olivia: Right. Andrea: You know, if we see something out in nature, we're not gonna be like, ⁓ that reminds me of so and so, like to our partners, like, no. Olivia: Right or even like I would I wouldn't even say like ⁓ that reminds me of like a client I wouldn't even say that like I wouldn't even say like a generalization either Because that would be But having that experience is weird. So like the whole thing ⁓ the way around is bizarre Andrea: No. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to be like, don't know. I don't even really know an example, but it's come up where I see something and I think about a client or we pass by and I want to say something. I want to be like, ⁓ that looks familiar. But can't even really do that because then person next to you is going to be like, ⁓ tell me why. Have you been here before? you're like, no. Olivia: Yeah. in my mind. Andrea: in my mind a computer maybe I don't know like Olivia: It is so bizarre. I like I'll go different places or all like I Don't know like consume different media or I Can't even think of a good example. I Have this so random I have this song that everyone saw I'll listen to and it's one of those songs when you're like kind of in your feels ish Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: And like this song always makes me think of someone in particular that I worked with. I have no idea why. I have no idea why I've associated this song with this person. So random. Every time I hear that song, I think of that person. like, ⁓ man, like, I hope they're doing okay. Andrea: That's so funny. Yeah, yeah. Restaurant recommendations is something that I experience a lot. where like, that I receive. I mean, I've given, okay, I've given two, but not nearly as much, because I don't, I didn't say two. I give, ⁓ not the number, I give two, like I was, yeah. Olivia: That you give or that you receive? ⁓ I give. Only two? I think you should... ⁓ okay, okay. was like, I've two. I'm like, that's really specific. ⁓ two? Wow. Okay. ⁓ it, got it, got it. ⁓ Andrea: No, no, no, no. No, I've also given, I've also given, but receiving is funny because I'll be like, ⁓ I found this place. not, ⁓ my client told me about this place. Like, I'm sure that's fine, but it is like one of those weird boundaries. And I'm also sure like, If anybody's ever been to therapy, usually your therapist is supposed to say like, if we see each other out in public, like if you live in the same area, I can't say hi to you, but you can say hi to me and I won't introduce who I'm with or whatever, like our little spiels end up being, that's weird too. Olivia: ⁓ What's weird is like having to prep the people around you ⁓ like, hey, if I say don't ask questions, don't ask questions. ⁓ OK, it is weird. It's weird. But we've covered this in a previous podcast episode. Growing up, I wanted to be like a detective FBI agent. This is the closest I feel to a spy is being like, don't ask me questions. ⁓ Andrea: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I like that reframe. Olivia: Now it's weird. It is weird. But like, that's my like, it makes me feel mysterious and I like that. Like, I know people that you don't know and I ain't gonna say shit about it. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. That's hilarious. ⁓ my gosh. I am curious. Did you have a conversation with your husband like early on in your career about that and be like, so here's the boundary? Like, did you ever have to have that or do that? Olivia: you is a really like, I don't know how much I can actually talk about it on the podcast, but I had a... ⁓ Okay, this is what, I had an old coworker taught me this phrase. This was called an AFGE, another fucking growth experience. ⁓ I had, and I was in my internship and my master's. Andrea: Weird. We have a weird job. ⁓ Okay, I like it. AFGE. Olivia: and I had a really stressful day at my internship. I had a really big client issue come up and I was having trouble processing it. I came home and I told my spouse, I was like, ⁓ yeah, there was this issue and there was this person over sharing and it was really stressful and I didn't know what to do and had to get a supervisor and all this stuff. like, ⁓ wow, okay, blah, blah, And then two later, We went to church and that person was like three rows in front of us. I realized that if she looked up and recognized me, she would come up and overshare ⁓ my spouse would know exactly who I was talking about. And I was like, Andrea: AFGE. Olivia: I was like, I cannot believe and I was like, hey, we need to go. And he was like, what? I was like, no questions, we need to go. He was like, kind of like looked at me and I was like, gave him the like, the stare. And he like got up and we left and he was like, what was that? And I was like, hey, do you remember what I do for work? He was like, yeah. And I was like, if I say we need to go, we need to go. And he was like, okay, okay, message received. I was like, thank you, we are leaving now. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: So we did have the conversation, but after an experience, it was a little embarrassing. So I was like, wow, I cannot believe I fell for that. It so stupid of me. I really like, I felt so dumb. was like, it was right there, Olivia. Like, could you... idiot. ⁓ Andrea: ⁓ that's funny. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, see, like, ⁓ those are the things that are weird, like... Olivia: And so many people I know, like even that I've supervised, I don't know what you would say, but like they don't think to have that conversation ahead of time. And so it's not until like after some, and then they're like, ⁓ my gosh, like, well by now having this conversation with my like loved one, whatever, now going to, ⁓ I'm basically identifying that client because now I'm having the conversation as a reaction versus like proactively. Andrea: Right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember having the conversation with my husband proactively, but there was a reason why, and I honestly couldn't tell you why. I want to say that he was asking me. Like, I think he was genuinely curious about it, and so we talked about it, which I'm really grateful for. Like, I'm grateful that he, like, was curious. But it was like, yeah, yeah. But it was a weird conversation because Olivia: Mmm. And step in it like I did. Andrea: you know, if we ran into his colleagues out in the wild, it's just like, ⁓ yeah, this is my wife. Like, here you go. And I do that with my colleagues, but it's just weird. Olivia: Well, it's like you could get like half an introduction, right? You could be like, oh, this is my spouse, blah, blah, blah. But you couldn't do it. You think you couldn't do the whole thing. It's so weird. Andrea: Yes. Yeah. No, no. But then but then he's more likely to be like, OK, what was that? Like, because he's going to pick up on that. And then I can't be like, no questions. Olivia: Yeah. It almost makes me feel like we should have like a, instead of just like no questions, just have like a work specific safe word. Andrea: ⁓ my gosh, actually though, what? Done, sold. Okay, we will share this with the partners. Some of my favorite Instagram videos done by therapists are like the funny ones where they're like at a grocery store and when you see a client in public and it's just the like. Olivia: I have a idea, wiener. Yep. Just scream wiener in public. Andrea: back and forth. ⁓ they crack me up every time because I'm like, yeah, that was correct. Olivia: Yeah, I sometimes have to like almost mentally. This is another weird thing. When I go out, I don't really go out just like by myself. I'm usually out with my daughter. And so I'm in a totally different mindset. But I kind of have to like do a tiny bit. Not like all that. It's not a super active thing, but I have to like tiny bit have in the back of my mind like, hey, if you see a client in public, do not double take like Andrea: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Olivia: you dumb dumb, like keep it together. Because the double take is what I try not to do. But I know that if I don't like actively try to remember that I will double take. Because that's what you like humanly do when you see somebody you think you know. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, well in the Right Exactly Exactly, it's it's really challenging like I think for the first couple years of my career to I Where I was living in particular I would run into clients all the time which was one of the reasons why I left because it was overwhelming ⁓ Olivia: Gah! Fair. Andrea: There were circumstances where I would run into clients in situations where I was like, you should not be here and I need to go. I just like couldn't, they never noticed me, but I couldn't really like bring it up. Like what am I supposed to say? Olivia: Right. That's weird. Andrea: Yeah, this is weird. Olivia: It is! Why is it so weird? Andrea: One of the things that the show Shrinking is bringing up for me, so in the show, the primary character, he starts doing this therapy method that he calls Jimmying, and his name is Jimmy, so they turned his name into, what is that a verb? Whatever, yeah. Which like, he takes his client out to go do MMA, to process anger, and like. Olivia: Yes. Andrea: Emotion and in my head. I'm like that makes sense. I would love to do that, but can we know? Olivia: No. Andrea: That's genius. Like being able to walk a client out to like, another thing he does is take a client out to ⁓ like spread their mom's ashes because they like struggled with that. It's like, yes, that makes sense. But can we? Nope. Olivia: Yeah, it's also like the fact that you can't look up a client on the internet or like social media. Andrea: Ugh! Ugh! The way that I wanna do that, so badly. Olivia: for so many people. But you can't, ⁓ you shouldn't, you shouldn't. ⁓ Andrea: No, no, and I have had people like show me in session. Olivia: their social media. Andrea: Yeah, yeah, or like, I don't know, show me pictures of family or friends and like, but that's their own prerogative. Like I'm not going out and searching that. Olivia: Although you're like morbidly curious because I'm also morbidly curious. Andrea: Right? Or if they own a business, I want to be like, well, what's your business? want to look up your art. I want to read your fan fiction. Olivia: Right. Andrea: I wanna consume the coloring books that you create. Olivia: I know. mean, the thing is, like, even on a base level, I'm just, curious, like, how they present online. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: I don't know, it's just interesting. Andrea: Yeah, no, I agree. Nope. Nope. Olivia: But you can't. That's like a total breach of privacy, which is why you can't. But it's weird. You like know so much about them, but like not their social media. Andrea: Yeah. Right? Yeah, and there's nothing saying that they can't look us up either, which is super weird. Like, I think that would be strange to do. Like, if I was a client, but I would want to do it, and I for sure would do it. But it is why a lot of us keep things like very private. Olivia: Yeah. Right, yeah. HMMMM Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, would be like kind of like for funsies would want to like look up my therapist, but I don't really think I'd like actually I don't think I actually would. Andrea: No, I don't think I would too. Yeah, I don't think I would. Just because I think, I mean, I am a therapist too, so I would be like, ⁓ this just feels weird. Olivia: Well, I know there's that part, like, I don't know. Andrea: Yeah, I did, I will admit this, I did look up one of my old therapists years after we stopped seeing each other. Nothing. They went ghost. Like even their therapy pages were gone. Olivia: And what did you find? Ugh. Wow. Like, a trace. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Rough. Yeah, can't think of a time when I... I don't think I've ever looked anybody up on social media. I've wanted to. Especially like ones that like, like clients I worked with for a while and then like, we had our theoretical forever goodbye. ⁓ Andrea: Very weird. Yeah, I wonder if that reason because we can't do it with clients is why I'm really good at it for other people. Olivia: good at finding things. I think that's just a part of being a white woman. I don't know, I just feel like a lot of white women are really good at stalking people online. Andrea: ⁓ I am so good at diving deep on randos. Okay, fine. I am a really good FBI Facebook investigator. Olivia: Like a lot of people I know who are good at that are just white women. I don't know. ⁓ I it's a skill, but ⁓ it like a pretty common one. I don't know. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah, yeah. I think my background in case management, the type of case management I did, I know how to go real deep it's probably not great, but I can. Olivia: Yeah, so fun, fun story. Little bit of a tangent, but I'll try to keep it quick. I was trying to find information on my next door neighbor because he's really weird and reclusive. And I tried to find some stuff. I could not find anything. Family member used to work at CPS. Wow, did she find a lot of stuff in 45 minutes? It was insane. It was like, oh, do you want to know his high school football record? And I was like, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: what? I'm sorry. What? And just like, I was like, okay, I thought I was like, had some skill, but okay, clearly you, that's, that's your thing. Okay, cool. Andrea: Yeah, that's kind of the level that I'm at. Olivia: Yeah, that's why I bring it up, because I'm like, wow, that's sobering. Cool. ⁓ did have one time where a client, this is like back when I was ⁓ a couple of years into the field. this ⁓ long time ago. And I was like working a lot with this couple. Lovely couple, probably dead. I'm sorry, that's my only way to cope with it! They are! They're probably dead. I'm sorry. I- I- I wish that wasn't so, but like, they were chain smokers and they were in their like late 70s, and I- Andrea: I know. Yeah, yours for sure. For sure. I know. was the nature of the work that you did at that time. Olivia: Yeah, like I don't know what to tell you anyways lovely worked with them for a long considering like the work that I was doing was usually like pretty short-term well actually like very short-term usually I work with people for like a month or two maybe and I worked with them for like five six months and ⁓ So like and they were like really sad to end and I was sad to end too because they were great and One ⁓ of last times went to see them ironically, they lived like five minutes away from my house, so that was, you know, funny. But I was like, I won't see you because you can't leave your apartment because you're old. whoo! ⁓ she's I found you Facebook. And I was like, ⁓ she goes, and your husband? Nice job. Andrea: Yeah, of course. Right? Olivia: I was like... I was like, thanks! Andrea: I don't know what to say. Olivia: What else do you say? But that was the there was only one other time where a client like openly admitted that that they had like searched me out or like tried to find me and I was like, ⁓ did you find anything good? That's usually what say. Andrea: Yeah, what do you say? Yeah. Mm Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Olivia: Like what? Like it's kind of joking, but like kind of not. It's like, okay, did you find anything good? Like, did you find what you wanted to find? I mean, I don't know. It's so, it's weird. Andrea: It's really weird. Olivia: Then you have a client congratulate you on your like spouse of choice. Andrea: Yeah, that's I don't know how to feel about that one. Olivia: Didn't you have the same thing? Andrea: I don't, I didn't have a client do that. I've had supervisees do that. Yeah. Which is like still a little odd, but, but I have, I've had some like photography crossover, which I feel like makes sense for that. But like not as much as I think people would expect, like less than one crossover a year. Like. Olivia: Hmm. It's not like... Yeah, better than a client. Hmm. Andrea: and I've been doing this for doing photography for 10 years and been licensed for eight. So like, it's way less than eight. yeah. Olivia: Yeah, that's pretty good. Those, yeah. Those are pretty good odds, that's when like happening in a client's life, like at an event a thing or something on like a specific day of the week and then on that day of the week, like they're on your mind and you just like can't talk about it or like you want to know, you want to check in or you're like, like ⁓ clients like really on mind and like there's nothing you can do about it. You just like get to think about them. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: Hate that. Andrea: Yeah, it can be really hard sometimes, like with that. And I know a lot of our job is supporting people and being able to do the hard thing, right? Or supporting people and being able to get through the hard thing. And I get that, but there's so many times I wanna be like, how was the hard thing? Tell me how it went. Like, are you good? Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I even like, found myself more recently because, ⁓ I like loosened up a little bit, is like wanting to send like a birthday email. And I mean like, well, I don't think I should, because that kind of creates obligation to like say thank you and that's kind of weird. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Would you say happy birthday in session? if it, if the birthday had been, okay, same. Cause I'm like, yeah. Olivia: Absolutely. ⁓ absolutely. I do that. ⁓ yeah, 100%. It's more of a like taking the time to send a like separate message to them. I'm like, yeah, that's probably not. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I'm usually pretty mindful if it's a new client, I'll ask, like, how do you feel about your birthday? Like, is happy birthday something that, like, you feel comfortable with me saying? And a lot of the times I'm like, yeah, that's fine, that's great. but it's very rare and I'm usually pretty mindful when people don't want it, so. And even then, tell me that you don't want it and that'll be fine. Like, okay. But it is, it's weird. And then they don't usually know when our birthdays are. Unfortunately, I think a lot of my clients, cause they're long-term, do know when my birthday is because I always take it off and it's at the end of the year. And they're always like, well, why do you take that week off? And I'm like, well, cause it's the end of the year. then I'm like, well, and it's my birthday. Olivia: Yeah. Right. ⁓ I was like, do your clients really not know when your birthday is? Because I was like, kind of start talking about your birthday like December 1st. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah, yeah. mean, part of that is because I take the entire week off and then two, because it sucks, so. ⁓ Olivia: I don't, I don't fault you. just think it's like, I just think it's funny. Cause I actually have a couple of clients that have birthdays around mine. And so they're like always talking about their birthdays. And like there are parts of me on the inside. I'm like, ⁓ talk about your birthday too. But like, I don't even care about my birthday. Like it's like, there'd be no point for me to bring it up other than to be like, I also have a birthday. Like there's no point. But like inside I'm like, you have a birthday too. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's so weird. think I posted something on our Instagram today that was like the things that are going on in your therapist's head as you're talking. ⁓ I thought about that and I was like, well, I say some weird shit in my head as people are talking. But also it's like we, ⁓ least I have full blown dialogues ⁓ somebody's talking in order to talk to them when they stop talking. Olivia: I Yes. Andrea: And it's like, I don't take notes, so it's just happening. And like every once in a while, I'll take a note just to like, so that don't forget, especially if there's a lot of information. But that's so strange. Like to sit and think about that now is like one of the things that we do where it's like, ⁓ I'm gonna pin that and come back to it later. ⁓ that's really bad. Make sure to mention abuse next time. Olivia: Right. Forget. Because you don't do that in any other context. mean, like, I don't. I don't do that in any other context. Andrea: No, no, no. Especially with ADHD friends where we just like pong back and forth. Olivia: Like, what? Andrea: Yeah, it's the self-control that I exhibit. Olivia: The impulse control, 100%. That's a lot of things. Yes, it's impulse control, but also it's like the amount of mental tracking that you're doing is like insane. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Olivia: Yeah, like I had somebody recently talk about they really like to work with couples. Never in million billion years. ⁓ No. so were asking me like, ⁓ like, what makes say that? Like, you just don't like couples. And I was like, well, I mean, like, yes, in part, but was more saying like, Andrea: is not Olivia's thing, y'all, not Olivia's thing. Olivia: I could do couples, I could work with couples. I know myself well enough to know that it would take so much mental capacity to hold two different perspectives and sides of the story and to try to be as neutral as possible and to hold all that. It would take so much work for me. To me, I feel like it would be the equivalent of like five individual clients at least. Andrea: Mm-hmm. really hard. Yeah, it is. mean, yeah, that's Olivia: Like, like one couple would at least be like five individual clients to me. And it's like, that's not worth it. Andrea: That's kind of how I guide my supervisees at C couples through that is I'm like, you have to remember that a couple client is like four clients in an hour. one client is a lot, a couple is like three times. Olivia: Right. Yeah, and I'm like, I could, but like, I don't want to. Like, I feel like my capacity is way better served just like working with a bunch of individuals. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Right, right. It's, yeah, it's another one of these like weird things in our career that's like, we actually are working. Like we are not just sitting here listening to people gab and like provide the tea, like sometimes, yeah. But we are also sitting there constantly thinking, constantly reframing or identifying things and pinning things. It's. The whiteboard in my head has so many sticky marks and arrows and like, it's wild. Yes. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah, and it's like the meme of the guy like pointing to the like wall behind him with like all of the... Yeah, like very conspiracy theory, right? Like... Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and also like how many jobs out there like is a lot of what you're doing not just internal, but has to stay internal? Like there's not a lot of other jobs that have that. Andrea: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a really good point. No. No. I think I've even told people like our job is so extremely vulnerable too. Like not that we're going around saying things, but like we have to internalize a lot. And it is a huge impact on our bodies and our minds and our like mental capacities because we are like taking in so much and taking in so much sensitive information that it leaves us vulnerable after work or when tanks are empty like. Olivia: At that I can think of. Andrea: It's a pretty vulnerable position. Olivia: Yeah, it's weird. Okay, what were you gonna say that was weird? Or did we already talk about? Andrea: I was... no, I was gonna say like... sometimes... I really just want to be friends with my clients. Olivia: Yeah, Yeah... Andrea: Like, and I won't because I have very good boundaries on that, but sometimes every once in a while a client will come in and will like, all I wanna do is just shoot the shit with you. Like all I wanna do is sit there and be like, we would be friends outside of this. And that's honestly can be really, really hard in comparison to the ones that like, I don't have that. Like that's almost the hardest. Olivia: Yeah, same. Yeah, it really is. I remember the first time I met with the last therapist I worked with our first session. ⁓ got into the second session and I was just like, what the hell? And she was like, what? And was like, we have so much life crossover. But now that I met with you, I'll never be able to be friends with you. So like, I'm like, it's already like doomed, not doomed, but I was just like, it's like, this has already set how it is, but like we had so much crossover. I was like, man, I really like would have benefited of also having a friend with this kind of crossover. And I'm like, this, like this sucks because like, can't, I can't not see you now. Like even seeing you once, like that, that's it. Andrea: Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I know. And don't know if this is license by license. It might be, it might not be. But there's like that seven year rule where it's like you can't have a relationship. Is it code by code? I couldn't remember if it was like ethical code or if it was like law. Yeah, because I think ours is like seven years and then you can like be friends. But I'm like, I'm not. Olivia: I think that's like technically code by code, but yeah. It's ethical code, not technically legal. But even then, like... But even then, Yeah, like what? What? Andrea: No, seven years is a really long time, number one. But also like. Right. Olivia: but also so arbitrary, what, seven years? Like seven out of all the, yeah. Andrea: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I remember in school they like taught us this like after seven years, then you can have sex with your ex client. I'm like, I don't think we should ever be allowed to do that. What? Olivia: Well, like this element where it's like, well, duh, like, of course, like you shouldn't be doing that. But then most of the misconduct in our field ⁓ doing that. Andrea: Right. ⁓ my gosh, that's for another episode. But also like, you're waiting, whoa, excuse me. If you're waiting seven years to be a friend of your client or even to like have a relationship, whether it's physical or not, that is creepy. Olivia: Yeah. Fresca, I get it. But also, how would you initiate said friendship after seven years? Andrea: That's why I'm saying it's creepy. That means you're following them or you're searching for them or thinking about them every year for seven years. Olivia: Or you're- Yeah, are you like somehow organically like coming across them and semi like what? Andrea: Hmm That would be so crazy if it was organic. And I feel like maybe that would be the exception to that. Still fucking weird. But like, no, it would be weird. Olivia: I still wouldn't do it though. It would be weird because you're always going to know more about them than they know about you. There's no way to go back from that. And how could you honestly tell me that you could be only a friend to that person and not slip into therapist? Even if you hadn't seen or worked with them in seven years, there's no freaking way that somebody could do that. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that's one of the things like how media portrays therapists is that like after they end a relationship with like a client that they can just like go be friends with them. I'm like, no, that's not how it works. Like, sorry. Olivia: I see like the two extremes, either like they can go be friends or like they don't care. And they like move on. It's like business as usual. And it's definitely a job hazard, but I, ⁓ no means would I say it's business as usual. Like it sucks every time. It's bittersweet every time. Andrea: Yeah. Every single time. Yeah. Olivia: no matter like the context you're just like ⁓ man like This sucks. Andrea: Even a bat, even an ending that it's like, ⁓ my gosh, thank goodness, I'm like letting go of this client. That's still, it's still weird. Like it's still like. Olivia: Yeah, because it's the weirdest goodbye you're ever going to have. It's because it's a forever goodbye. When you're technically both still living, that's usually like, even like when you break up with people that you don't even think that, you know what I mean? Or like move away from an area or like, it's not like don't think that it would be a forever, even if it like ends up being that way. But you don't, when you say goodbye, you don't think that that's what it is. So that's why it's so flipping weird. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: Don't like it. Andrea: We have one of the weirdest careers, I think. Like, yeah, there's some weird careers out there, but like, there, I don't, I don't know if there's anything that compares to this. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, we're just special little unicorns out in pasture. Andrea: Yeah, and you know what? I love that. Olivia: I mean, I do too. I love what I do. You love what you do. Like, it's the best. But it's weird. It's weird sometimes. There are things that, like, we have to think about that, like, people in other jobs just, like, categorically don't have to think about. Andrea: ⁓ yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. No, not at all. sometimes we have to make calls too that are really hard. Not like ⁓ calls, but like sometimes we have to make a call about a client that's like, this doesn't feel good. ⁓ we try to do the best that we can to make that the best outcome. And sometimes it's just not, and a hard job. Yeah. Olivia: Damn. It's a hard job. I try to just like, like I said, I just try to lean into the mystery. Like I'm just like actually kind of a spy. And I'm like, it's full espionage. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you think about it too, like we do have to have encryptions and log it, like double login ⁓ everything's gotta be locked up and shredded and yeah. ⁓ yeah, I like this. Therapist equals spy. Olivia: Yeah. Ooh, title of the episode, therapist spy. Andrea: was also like new merch idea? Olivia: Okay, also, we can talk about this in the rabbit trap episode, but we have been coming up with a lot of different merch ideas over last, like, just a week, like alone. Andrea: I know, I know, we've been cranking them, so. Olivia: Yeah, the creative juices are flowing. ⁓ my goodness. All right. Well, thank you all for tuning in and of going on this journey with us and thinking ⁓ for the first time or maybe again about how weird it is to be a therapist or what your therapist might be thinking. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ You know, like, we have weird jobs and hopefully this normalizes it a little bit for people. But it's weird. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Ugh. It's weird out there, y'all. We're just doing our part. Yeah, absolutely. We're letting people in in the spy world for sure. But follow along, like, comment, subscribe, ask questions, engage with us, let us know if there things that are on your mind that you want us to talk about or weigh in on. We love giving our opinion extremely freely. So please give yours. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ And if you're a therapist and you have other reasons why being a therapist is weird, let us know. Leave it in the comments. you know, give us some ideas or other things to talk about too. We'd love to see what people are curious about, about the field, about specific things in the field, whatever comes up. Let us know. Olivia: Yeah Yeah, definitely. All right, well, we will catch all of you in the next one. See y'all. Andrea: Peace out Girl Scout.