Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #42 Greatness and the Cross

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#42 Greatness and the Cross · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone.
• 0:16
  Tim Wright here along with John Burgess and Terry Summers,
• 0:19
  the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 0:22
  As we continue our journey through the Gospel of Mark together
• 0:25
  doing Bible study,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: we are,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: depending on when this comes out,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: somewhere in the Easter season.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: And the Easter season is about death.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's about life.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's about repentance.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's about transformation.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: And in the middle of the story that we're in,
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: we have been talking about the cross in the Gospel of Mark,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: our Bible study together.
• 0:50
  We have seen Jesus give some indication to his disciples that
• 0:53
  that is going to be
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: his way to bring about the kingdom of God.
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  SPEAKER_02: Jesus has talked a bit about us taking up the cross,
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: which means to enter into solidarity with others,
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  SPEAKER_02: to bring hope and grace to them.
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  SPEAKER_02: And as Jesus makes his way to the cross,
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  SPEAKER_02: an argument about greatness breaks out amongst his disciples.
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  SPEAKER_02: And those of us living in the United States of America,
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: greatness is sort of all the buzz these last several years.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: What does it mean to be great?
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  And we're not going to get into the political aspect of it,
• 1:27
  at least not intentionally.
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  SPEAKER_02: But
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  The scriptures do speak about greatness and what it means to be
• 1:35
  great in terms of
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  SPEAKER_02: being a follower of Jesus.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're going to ask the Arizona Actress of the Year, Terry Summers.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: When was that, Terry?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: What year was that?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: 1987, 1988, something like that.
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  SPEAKER_02: Way back in the last century.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_02: It was in the 90s.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: So we're going to make you the Arizona podcast Bible reader of the year.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'll take that.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 2:05
  So last week,
• 2:07
  we looked at the transfiguration where Jesus is up on the mountain.
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  SPEAKER_02: He meets with Moses and Elijah to talk about his upcoming death.
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  SPEAKER_02: And now Jesus has moved down into the valley, so to speak.
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  SPEAKER_02: He is intentionally making his way to the cross.
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  SPEAKER_02: And this is where the disciples get a bit...
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  SPEAKER_02: sideways in terms of really what Jesus is calling them to do.
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  SPEAKER_02: So we're going to be looking at Mark chapter nine, verses 30 through 37.
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  SPEAKER_00: Great.
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  SPEAKER_00: They left that place and passed through Galilee.
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  Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were because he
• 2:45
  was teaching his disciples.
• 2:47
  He said to them,
• 2:49
  the son of man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.
• 3:00
  But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to
• 3:04
  ask him about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: They came to Capernaum.
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  When he was in the house,
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  he asked them,
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  What were you arguing about on the road?
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  But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about
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  who was the greatest.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sitting down,
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  SPEAKER_00: Jesus called the twelve and said,
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  Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last and the
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  servant of all.
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  SPEAKER_00: He took a little child whom he placed among them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Taking the child in his arms,
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  SPEAKER_00: he said to them,
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  SPEAKER_00: Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And whoever welcomes me does not welcome me, but the one who sent me.
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  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Terry.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: It gets sort of redundant to keep saying really good stuff here.
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  SPEAKER_02: Every time we look at a story of Jesus, there's really good stuff.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think what makes this one interesting
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  SPEAKER_02: good is the gracious challenge that Jesus has for us in this story.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so,
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  SPEAKER_02: again,
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  SPEAKER_02: just to set the context,
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  SPEAKER_02: he has just talked about what the way of the kingdom of God looks like.
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  SPEAKER_02: It goes through a cross,
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  SPEAKER_02: and right after that,
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  SPEAKER_02: the disciples are arguing about which one of them is the greatest.
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  SPEAKER_02: Sounds like a bunch of little kids,
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  SPEAKER_02: and they're arguing over,
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  SPEAKER_02: Mom loves you more than me,
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  SPEAKER_02: or I'm the best.
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  And so here we are in the midst of Jesus trying to share with
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  them what the kingdom
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  SPEAKER_02: of God looks like,
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  SPEAKER_02: that it comes through power,
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  SPEAKER_02: not greatness,
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  SPEAKER_02: so to speak.
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  It comes through love,
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  compassion,
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  sacrifice,
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  and the disciples once again miss the point.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so we're going to talk about that.
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  We're going to tease that out a little bit,
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  what Jesus may be saying to us today.
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  So last time we started with John to see sort of what insights
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  he had because Terry
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  SPEAKER_02: had read the scripture.
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  SPEAKER_02: This week,
• 5:22
  why don't we start with John and see what insights he has
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  because Terry read the scripture.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to a new week, everybody.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: So there's a couple of things that I really like about this.
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  SPEAKER_03: One is, um,
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  SPEAKER_03: the absolute humanity that the disciples are showing.
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  SPEAKER_03: You know, sometimes they get a bad rap, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: We're 2000 years later.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's easy for us to be like, man, why don't you guys get this, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: Because we've got more information and more time to think about it.
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  SPEAKER_03: But here's just a lot of humanity.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I see them saying,
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  SPEAKER_03: look,
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  I don't know what he was talking about regarding that delivered
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  into the hands of
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  SPEAKER_03: the enemies and three days later,
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  SPEAKER_03: but I do know this.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm a way smarter than you guys.
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  SPEAKER_03: And if you guys, if I can't figure it out, you're totally lost.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: I just see that as absolutely happening.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then that is even secondary to me to the next point,
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  SPEAKER_03: which is,
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  SPEAKER_03: um,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: just the absolute love that he's showing little children and,
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  SPEAKER_03: and,
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  SPEAKER_03: uh,
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  SPEAKER_03: the,
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  SPEAKER_03: that class of people at that time,
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  SPEAKER_03: not really the,
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  SPEAKER_03: the,
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  SPEAKER_03: the,
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  SPEAKER_03: the most important people as they're,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: seen throughout culture and for him to say,
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  SPEAKER_03: look,
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  SPEAKER_03: And I think he's saying a couple of things here.
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  I think this is one of those pieces of scripture where there's
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  just layer after
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  SPEAKER_03: layer after layer of depth.
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  SPEAKER_03: But certainly I appreciate the first layer,
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  SPEAKER_03: which is validating the value of children in that culture and to himself.
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  SPEAKER_03: He's saying like, these little humans are very important to me.
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  SPEAKER_03: And if you can work on adoring them,
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  Just know that that affects me and affects my father and
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  straight through the two
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  SPEAKER_03: of us back to you.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I just think that that's, you know, incredible.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Terry, how about you?
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had a thought, some scrolling back.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  SPEAKER_00: I did have some thinking about when they didn't understand,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of wondering,
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  SPEAKER_00: so if someone drops a bomb like that,
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  SPEAKER_00: it feels like that to me anyway,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: that they wouldn't have engaged,
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  SPEAKER_00: but,
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  SPEAKER_00: but why do you think that they were afraid to ask him?
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  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: If he,
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  SPEAKER_00: if someone,
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  if he says he's going to be delivered into the hands of men and
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  kill him and he's
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  SPEAKER_00: going to rise again,
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  SPEAKER_00: crickets,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like when they're looking at each other,
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  SPEAKER_00: like with the shrugged shoulders,
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  SPEAKER_00: like I'm not saying anything,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying anything.
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  Is it because they didn't want him to feel like maybe they
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  weren't with him or did
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  SPEAKER_00: you think like it,
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  SPEAKER_00: it,
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  SPEAKER_00: it,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: It feels familiar to me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And now I feel like I'm tattling on myself.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know what that meant, but anyway.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think it,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think again,
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  one of the great things about these stories is they're telling
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  us something about Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_02: They're telling us something about what it means to follow him,
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  but they also give us permission to sort of put ourselves in
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  the story and to
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  SPEAKER_02: imagine who we are.
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  SPEAKER_02: And there's, there's some room for that.
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  SPEAKER_02: creative imagination and curious imagination in these stories.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think you hit on part of it that it may be
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  Because there have been some other times in the story where
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  Jesus would say
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  SPEAKER_02: something and the disciples wouldn't get it.
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  SPEAKER_02: And he said, you guys are real knuckleheads.
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  SPEAKER_02: How long do I got to be hanging around with you guys before you get it?
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: True, true.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: And maybe this was just one of those times where,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  this is the third or fourth time now that you said something
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  about dying and rising
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  SPEAKER_02: from the dead.
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  SPEAKER_02: And remember, no context for that.
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  We,
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  you know,
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  apart from Jesus dying and rising again,
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  we have no context for that.
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  SPEAKER_02: We haven't seen dead people rise from the dead.
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  SPEAKER_02: I see it once in a while after church.
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  People look like they died during the sermon and then they get
• 9:33
  up and they're fine,
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  right?
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  But,
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  you know,
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  literal dying and rising again without medical assistance and
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  so on.
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  SPEAKER_02: It just, there's no context at all for that.
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  SPEAKER_02: True.
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  SPEAKER_02: It could just be, A, I'm so dumbfounded by this.
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know if I have the bandwidth to get my brain around it.
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  It could be that,
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  man,
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  we've let him down so many times because we never get it.
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  SPEAKER_02: We're not going to say anything.
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  SPEAKER_02: We just don't want to hurt his feelings anymore.
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  SPEAKER_02: We don't want to look stupid.
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  SPEAKER_02: There could be a lot of different reasons why
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  They didn't say anything or just because he seems to be
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  suggesting he's going to be killed.
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  SPEAKER_02: And who wants to have that conversation?
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, this is Jesus.
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  And Peter said,
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  you know,
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  I've already once said,
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  quit talking about this.
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  SPEAKER_02: And you told me, you called me Satan.
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  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I, I don't know.
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  I think we're just going to kind of let this one go and see how
• 10:40
  it plays out.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  So I think there are probably a lot of reasons why they just
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  couldn't ask.
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  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they just were numb to it at that point because it made no sense.
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  It's sort of like sitting in that algebra class and the
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  teacher's gone over the
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  SPEAKER_02: theorem 16 times.
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  SPEAKER_02: You still don't get it.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to ask again.
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  SPEAKER_02: Because he could do it number 17.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: She could do it number 17.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm still not going to get it.
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  SPEAKER_02: So just whatever.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to take an F today.
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  SPEAKER_02: Or I don't want to look stupid in class.
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  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: and it could be another thing is each one of them,
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  SPEAKER_02: none of them want to be the first to say,
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't get it.
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  SPEAKER_02: Right.
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  The rest of nobody else gets it,
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  but they probably think everybody else gets it.
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be the first one to raise my hand in class and say,
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  SPEAKER_02: this really doesn't make sense to me.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  Well,
• 11:37
  and then to not have that be the topic of conversation on their
• 11:42
  walk on the road.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of like it just went way over their heads.
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  SPEAKER_02: They couldn't get it.
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  SPEAKER_02: All right.
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  SPEAKER_02: We got to distract ourselves.
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  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about what really matters.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm better than you are.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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  And then I think like I imagine in my mind that walk that Jesus
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  is listening.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know I've heard and listened to things before when people are near me.
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  But in a group,
• 12:11
  it also suggests something comfortable that they were talking.
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  SPEAKER_00: They weren't being uber secretive because he was hearing it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that literally,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: based on this translation,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: it just makes me feel like he,
• 12:26
  they were all walking together and they were having
• 12:28
  conversations and they were
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  SPEAKER_00: arguing a little bit,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: but it was about that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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  It felt very comfortable that they were arguing about that when
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  he's right there,
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: like that,
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  SPEAKER_00: that wouldn't strike him because then it says,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: they, when he asked about what they were, they kept quiet.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So they, so then it dawned, you know, I don't know.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel, I think about maybe a movie because of the, of the chosen.
• 12:57
  I feel like my mind goes right there and plugs in dialogue,
• 13:01
  but there's something,
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  um,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm answering my own question.
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  SPEAKER_00: Interesting that that was what they talked about,
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  SPEAKER_00: number one,
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  and that then they talked about it freely enough that he could
• 13:15
  tell they were arguing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, John.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it just feels like, again, the humanity strikes me.
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  SPEAKER_03: So it just feels like they're saying,
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure what that whole three days later thing meant,
• 13:31
  but I'm pretty sure Jesus has not been telling us to figure out
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  which one of us is
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: the greatest.
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  So I'm just not going to answer that question and hope that we
• 13:38
  can move on to something else.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 13:42
  So,
• 13:44
  and we may come back to this,
• 13:45
  but in chapter 10,
• 13:47
  we have a similar kind of story.
• 13:50
  where James and John,
• 13:52
  two of the disciples,
• 13:54
  come to Jesus,
• 13:55
  and we've got a request.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a favor.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: This is Mark 10,
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  SPEAKER_02: starting at 35,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: for those of you who want to look it up,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: and I'll put it in the show notes.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And Jesus says, okay, what do you want me to do for you?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we'd like to sit at your right hand and at your left in your glory.
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  SPEAKER_02: We'd like to be your number two guys.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: it's sort of like going up to,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: at this point,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: President Trump saying,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: we'd like to be the vice president.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: And no way am I making any comparison between Donald Trump and Jesus.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just trying to use an analogy.
• 14:32
  So they're going up to Jesus because they're thinking this guy
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  is setting himself
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  SPEAKER_02: up for political power,
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  SPEAKER_02: whether it's here on earth or in heaven.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Man, we want to be right next to the power.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: Also very human.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Very human.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: And now in other gospels, it's not John and James who do it.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's their mother who does it.
• 14:58
  So kind of got this good Jewish mother coming up and,
• 15:01
  hey,
• 15:01
  I want my two boys.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then Jesus puts the question to, well, wait a minute.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Are you ready to go through what I'm going to go through?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they say, sure, sure.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, of course, they have no idea.
• 15:14
  Well,
• 15:15
  then the other disciples get angry and they start arguing again
• 15:21
  over who's the greatest.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, well, why did James and John think that they should be there?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm Peter, for heaven's sake.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: I should be sitting there.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm Judas.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: I should be sitting there.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so for a second time in the midst of all of this cross stuff,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: they're arguing about who's the greatest,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: which shows they kind of missed the whole point.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: They haven't heard anything about
• 15:46
  They haven't heard anything about caring for neighbors,
• 15:50
  fighting for the oppressed.
• 15:51
  It's all about how do I get power,
• 15:55
  fame,
• 15:55
  my 15 minutes of fame,
• 15:57
  whatever it is for myself.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: And they've missed the point.
• 16:03
  And it's one of the great lures,
• 16:10
  especially in our social media world,
• 16:13
  one of the great lures.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is to be famous.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: That my life will have impact if I'm famous.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or if I'm powerful.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: when you start doing surveys now,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: what is the dream job for kids growing up?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they want to be YouTube influencers.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, influencer can be a great thing.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing wrong with influencing.
• 16:40
  Yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: I want to influence the world to be more compassionate.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: I want to influence the world to be whatever.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of it is just I want to be famous.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying anything negative about our kids at this point.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of woven into our DNA right now.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: But it goes back thousands of years.
• 16:59
  And you've got these guys who've been closest to Jesus who sort
• 17:02
  of are thinking,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: what it means to be on the team of Jesus is to be right there,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: right up front,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: being one of the power brokers in the kingdom.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And in this story and in the one we're looking at closely today,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus has to remind them this isn't what it's about.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to show you what power looks like.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want to see what the power of God looks like,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: In a few weeks, watch me hanging on that cross.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's what power looks like.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's what will change the world.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: And again, they have no context for it.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: But they will eventually, of course.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then what happens to the Christian movement?
• 17:54
  It just becomes one story after another of Christians trying to
• 17:57
  seek power.
• 18:00
  Whether it's through sword or it's through propaganda or it's
• 18:04
  through laws.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Or it's through the way that a church is structured.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: We just have this human thing about power when Jesus says,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: it's nothing wrong with power,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: but it's power for the sake of others,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: not for your status.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's not for you.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: Power's not for you.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that the caring for the least of these things...
• 18:34
  I imagine he could have chosen several least of these in this
• 18:38
  particular instance,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: he chooses a child.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: I imagine that,
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: there's,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: there's,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: kind of a beautiful moment between the,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: the child's parents and Jesus as he's like,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: Hey,
• 18:49
  I'd like to hug up your child a little bit and then use them to
• 18:52
  make a point for
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: some of my followers.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: I,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: that just,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: seems to be,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: of course not in scripture at all,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: but maybe mostly in my imagination.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: And, um,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then says in the message,
• 19:04
  whoever embraces one of these children as I do embraces me and
• 19:09
  far more than me,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: God who sent me.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: So he's saying not only are,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: in my mind,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: not only are this class of people worthy of our attention and our
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: embrace our literal and figurative embrace.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: But also remember,
• 19:26
  there's this lesson here of serving the least of these that's
• 19:29
  coming to us again
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: through this scripture.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 19:33
  Yeah,
• 19:33
  so Jesus says it this way in the Mark passage that we're
• 19:37
  looking at in chapter 10.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus called them and said to them,
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know that among the Gentiles,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: those whom they recognize as their rulers,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: lord it over them.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: And their great ones are tyrants over them.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: But it is not so among you.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't how we do power.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant.
• 20:06
  And so for Jesus,
• 20:07
  greatness is found in service and using our power to serve others.
• 20:12
  And of course,
• 20:12
  in John's gospel,
• 20:13
  he washes their feet to say,
• 20:16
  this is what...
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: kingdom of God looks like.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is what my mission looks like.
• 20:21
  And he turns upside down the whole concept of greatness and
• 20:26
  turns it into service.
• 20:32
  In business over the last few years,
• 20:34
  there's been this whole concept of servant leadership.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: And John, you're probably somewhat familiar with that.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: To see
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: that if I serve my employees and help them succeed,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: and I don't want to twist this,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm guessing in part,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: the business will do better.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: The bottom line will do better, right?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: So there is a little bit of
• 21:07
  something there that's not just purely about service because
• 21:11
  I'm also concerned
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: about the bottom line.
• 21:13
  Where Jesus isn't concerned about the bottom line,
• 21:15
  he's concerned about the person we serve.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Servant leadership can't be a...
• 21:24
  It can't just be reduced to a business model to make your
• 21:27
  business stronger.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's got to be at the core of and recognizing it.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Boy, if we go to a model like this where we put the needs of our
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: workers first, and then they put the needs of our customers first.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 21:40
  We may,
• 21:40
  we may have to rethink what our bottom line looks like and how
• 21:44
  we measure that.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: And how we value people.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: and you know,
• 21:51
  a lot of books and a lot of talks about servant leadership that
• 21:53
  we're not going to
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: cover on this podcast,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: but there is certainly a purity there that says,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: if I've been given this responsibility for whatever reason,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: my hard work,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: because the hiring manager said yes,
• 22:04
  And now I'm ready to use it to benefit those around me and I
• 22:08
  can serve them and
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: make their jobs easier.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's incredibly compelling.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Which is fantastic.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:15
  There's probably a lot of employees right now who would really
• 22:18
  love to have a
• 22:20
  management system that was committed to them versus the
• 22:25
  stockholders or the bottom
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: line of the company,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: for example.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:30
  And for those of you who think that this is a very interesting
• 22:33
  slight tangent that
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: Tim and I are off on right now,
• 22:37
  there's lots of great literature out there about biblical
• 22:41
  principles of servant
• 22:42
  leadership and how it impacts your personal leadership and your
• 22:47
  sphere of influence.
• 22:48
  And the sphere of influence could be the home that you live
• 22:52
  with and the children
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: you take care of.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: It could be the
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: Make a corporation that you're working in.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's not limited by size.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: Tangent off.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: This might be kind of square and hard line,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: but if I am not serving others,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: then Jesus doesn't find greatness in me.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know if I would say it that way.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that the essence of the kingdom,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: the ethic of the kingdom,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: the essence of grace is to live a life of service for others.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Now, that doesn't mean we don't take care of ourselves.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: We love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we got to love ourselves in order to love our neighbors.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: but if I'm not living out that ethic,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: then I'm missing out on the call that Jesus has for my life
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the joy, the freedom, the life that comes in living that way.
• 24:14
  And so rather than saying that Jesus doesn't see me as great,
• 24:17
  I would say Jesus still loves me.
• 24:20
  He's still passionate about me,
• 24:21
  but he wants to draw me deeper into the life that he has for me.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And rather than us always being distracted by...
• 24:32
  A modern understanding of greatness,
• 24:33
  which tends to be about being powerful and us first.
• 24:40
  Jesus saying,
• 24:41
  no,
• 24:41
  greatness is found in something far different,
• 24:43
  something more meaningful.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the kind of greatness that when you go to bed at night,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: you can actually have a good night's sleep.
• 24:53
  So it's a challenge,
• 24:54
  but I mean,
• 24:55
  not a challenge,
• 24:56
  but I mean,
• 24:56
  he's redefining grace.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, excuse me, greatness.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then also calling them to think that way.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of a two part thing going on anyway.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And showing them.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And showing them.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Showing them.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: And, and Tim, uh,
• 25:18
  is it true that like we're talking about children here and
• 25:22
  that's important to me,
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: but I think for everybody within your sphere of influence,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: there is a least of these and maybe it's not children,
• 25:29
  but there's somebody who's the least of these in whatever that
• 25:32
  sphere of influence is.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: And as Jesus not saying,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hey,
• 25:36
  I'm asking you to pause and take a moment to recognize that and
• 25:40
  then see how you
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: can contribute,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: how you can take care of how you can serve those people.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, sure.
• 25:46
  I think that there are some people whose lives are in such a
• 25:55
  situation right now
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: where they may be the least of these.
• 26:01
  But even then,
• 26:03
  Jesus would say the way of life is found in serving others.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now, it may be that right now the person you need to serve is yourself.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: You need to love on yourself.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: find the resources that you need to take care of yourself.
• 26:19
  But we're doing this not because we're self-centered,
• 26:23
  but because God loves us.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: We want to treat ourselves like we're loved.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing wrong with that.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: But remember that God loves others as well, and that love is the ethic.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so if love is the ethic, it's about service.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's about wanting what's best for others.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yes, you know, as parents, for example,
• 26:47
  We have responsibility to our children,
• 26:49
  people who are married,
• 26:50
  responsibility to spouses.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: If we're in a workplace,
• 26:54
  we have responsibilities to treat with care and compassion the
• 26:58
  people we work with
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: or work for or who work for us,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: friendships,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: family relationships.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, Jesus is saying the better way
• 27:12
  is rather than arguing over who's the strongest and the best
• 27:15
  and the greatest,
• 27:16
  the better way is to serve and to invest yourself in the
• 27:23
  betterment of others.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: And even when you look at successful sports teams,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of them are built on not just great talent,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: but on pulling together for a common cause to serve each other.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: And if I make you better, you make me better.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we make the team better and we go out and we win the games.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a part of our lives.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 27:55
  where greatness tends to be defined right now by how many
• 27:58
  eyeballs I can get on my
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: social media or by who sort of kowtows to me or my agenda is,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus says something very, very different and challenging for us.
• 28:11
  And I think all of us intuitively have a sense that if we used
• 28:17
  our greatness to
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: serve others,
• 28:18
  the world would probably be a better place than living in a
• 28:24
  world where you've got
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: a few people with power and they just use it to lord it over,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: in the language of Jesus.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because all of us,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: it doesn't matter who we are,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: there's always going to be someone greater than we are.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I sure want that person to treat me with some dignity and respect.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Terry and Tim, you make me better.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, John.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's very nice.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: So there we are.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked a bit about greatness.
• 28:57
  And next time we get together,
• 28:59
  we keep going further and further into the story.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we're getting closer and closer to the cross.
• 29:05
  We do hope that if you enjoy these,
• 29:07
  you tell your friends about them and pass them along.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Terry, John, thank you very, very much.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, everybody, for listening.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Back with you next week.