Latest / Heroes Behind the Badge / Rick Harcrow — Inside Attica: The Stats, the Families, and the Hidden Cost | Part 2

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Rick Harcrow — Inside Attica: The Stats, the Families, and the Hidden Cost | Part 2 · Heroes Behind the Badge

0:00
This guy told me the third day, he says,
0:01
"You know, you keep fucking with me.
0:03
You know, I'm gonna murder
0:05
you when I get the chance."
0:08
I turned around and looked at him.
0:09
Now, I had five years on the job, he
0:11
thought I was a rookie.
0:12
I said, "Nah, that's not gonna happen."
0:17
(Upbeat Music)
0:24
37 years behind the walls of
0:26
America's most feared prison.
0:28
The threats, the burnout,
0:30
and whether he'd do it again.
0:32
Rick Harcrow spent
0:33
37 years inside Attica.
0:36
The history he inherited was soaked in
0:37
blood, but living inside those walls
0:40
created its own dangers, including one
0:42
afternoon in the law library.
0:44
He's never forgotten.
0:45
You're in the midst of all of these
0:47
savages that you're
0:49
supposed to be overseeing.
0:52
How many times did you feel that it was
0:56
right on the edge that it could have gone
0:58
either way, where you
0:59
could have gotten killed?
1:01
Yeah, I had an inmate.
1:03
I had five years on the job and I was
1:05
working, I don't know,
1:06
they put me on the day shift.
1:08
Most of us went to afternoons.
1:10
And they put me in the law library for a
1:12
couple of weeks temporary.
1:14
And I had to go up to the special housing
1:16
unit, the lockdown unit, ad seg,
1:19
not solitary confinement.
1:21
And I had to deliver them law books.
1:23
So I was delivering the
1:24
law books for the same date.
1:26
They had to sign for them, because they
1:27
were always claiming we didn't give them
1:28
any of the legal rights.
1:29
So we had a form, you write the book you
1:32
want, write the digest, write the
1:35
lawyer's digest, and you write the
1:36
numbers and we give it to you.
1:38
For I give it to you, you sign the paper,
1:39
saying you received it to cover us.
1:42
Okay, so I'll never forget, does it mean
1:44
three days in a row ordered this book?
1:47
I can remember the numbers.
1:50
Federal digest, like 295.
1:53
It was General Motors
1:54
versus an insurance case.
1:57
Someone got in a chiropractor killed.
1:59
They were suing them.
2:00
So I don't look at the numbers.
2:02
I'm a correction officer.
2:03
I'm not a lawyer, right?
2:04
I just supply the equipment.
2:06
I said, you don't know
2:07
what you're ordered, man.
2:08
You only give me my legal work.
2:10
I said, I gave you the
2:11
same book three days in a row.
2:12
You know, I actually read it.
2:14
You don't know what
2:14
the hell you're ordering.
2:15
Then I realized years
2:16
later, he was playing the game.
2:17
The more paperwork they put in the
2:19
prison, the more they'll ship them to
2:22
another prison trying to keep the peace.
2:24
He obviously, a lot of them, here's the
2:26
big, a lot of them go to protective
2:28
custody in a shoot
2:31
because of their fellow inmates.
2:32
The officer's never going to bother them.
2:34
Fellow inmates.
2:36
And when we would take away a bad guy, 30
2:38
years later, I'm in the van.
2:39
The guy says, you know, H, they couldn't
2:41
pronounce my name, thank God.
2:42
I didn't want them to know my last name.
2:45
He said, when you take a bad guy away, if
2:47
he's messing with the police, he messes
2:49
with us 10 times as bad.
2:52
That's why when you take a guy away, we
2:54
don't have a problem with him.
2:56
And I'm like, wow, I got
2:57
30 years on the job, man.
2:58
I never realized that.
2:59
But they're extorting,
3:01
they're robbing, they're thieving,
3:04
they're sexually assaulting them,
3:07
you know, all the time.
3:09
Rick, as you say that, I mean, would you
3:11
say that the stereotype that I think most
3:13
civilians have of prisons, especially
3:15
prisons with hardened criminals like
3:17
Attica, that there is
3:19
rampant, you know, assaults,
3:22
prisoner on prisoner, there's a race,
3:25
there's prisoners on prisoners.
3:27
I mean, this actually
3:28
is happening in Attica.
3:30
We'd have an assault in
3:32
some prisons back in the day.
3:34
I don't have the current numbers.
3:35
I've been retired six
3:36
years, like 300 a year.
3:39
300 a year.
3:40
So that's almost one a day.
3:41
And then the last, you know, what's
3:43
confessional wisdom
3:44
in this country, right?
3:45
Any corporation, any business, keep
3:47
things quiet, keep things routine, don't
3:49
let anybody get upset.
3:51
A lot of times we call the DOCS, the
3:53
Department of Comrades.
3:55
They wouldn't report what was happening.
3:57
And it would have infuriated us.
3:59
You know, we said, we had one time we
4:02
were rookies and I was
4:03
just learning the business.
4:04
I worked at C-block was
4:05
one of the toughest blocks.
4:07
And we ran a good prison.
4:09
One night an inmate stabbed another
4:10
inmate with a broken broomstick.
4:12
He broke the broomstick off.
4:13
They used to sweep the floors.
4:14
We got inmate porters, right?
4:16
Clean the place.
4:17
And he stabs the guy.
4:19
Department spokesman two days later,
4:20
normally that would never make the press.
4:23
Well, somebody leaked it
4:25
or somebody let it out.
4:28
And the department spokesman said, nobody
4:29
got stabbed with a knife.
4:32
And we all looked at some, what the hell
4:33
is this idiot saying?
4:35
Right, nobody got stabbed with a knife.
4:37
He got stabbed with a
4:38
broken broom handle.
4:39
Does that make a
4:40
difference to the stambi?
4:43
And that's when we started to realize,
4:45
you know, the politics in this world, you
4:48
know, we called it the DOCS, the
4:51
Department of Coverups.
4:52
That was a joke
4:53
between the staff, you know?
4:55
We were talking, why
4:56
aren't you prosecuting?
4:57
And they used to tell
4:57
us, well, it was money.
5:00
And if the guy's doing 20 years, why are
5:02
we gonna prosecute him?
5:03
And it would infuriate us.
5:04
And I'd say, yeah, well, give
5:06
him three years consecutive.
5:09
Because once in a while
5:09
they'll do a, what is it?
5:12
Consecutive or concurrent, where they add
5:13
on three more years, not
5:15
run it at the same time.
5:17
We're like, you're not
5:18
teaching these guys anything.
5:19
Yeah.
5:20
And it was terrible.
5:22
I have a comment and then a question.
5:25
Getting back to what you all were
5:27
describing, life for a correctional
5:29
officer, behind the walls, dealing with
5:32
the dregs of society, et cetera.
5:35
I met one of your friends, Rick, a
5:38
correctional officer from Michigan.
5:40
And we were discussing, you know, how
5:42
much appreciation do you ever get as a
5:46
correctional officer?
5:47
Do you ever get a thank you?
5:49
And he said to me, Craig, I worked for
5:50
more than 30 years behind the walls at a
5:54
prison facility in Michigan.
5:56
And he said, I got one thank you the
5:58
entire time I served.
6:01
And he said, that was a prisoner who
6:03
actually suffered a heart attack.
6:05
He did CPR on him, saved his life.
6:09
And that prisoner, maybe begrudgingly, I
6:11
don't know, actually did say thank you to
6:14
that correctional
6:15
officer for saving his life.
6:16
But he said, other than that, never got
6:18
one thank you from any inmate, never got
6:21
any sense of appreciation.
6:23
And this is what bothers me about the
6:26
lack of respect and appreciation that our
6:28
correctional officers
6:29
in this country get.
6:33
It's infuriating to me to think that, you
6:35
know, you're busting your butt and
6:37
putting your life on the line every day
6:39
in that facility, and never getting any
6:42
appreciation because the people you're
6:44
protecting are the inmates who obviously
6:47
could care less about themselves, let
6:50
alone the people that are protecting them
6:52
and keeping them secure.
6:54
So that's always bothered me.
6:55
That's why I'm so thankful
6:56
that we're doing this podcast.
6:58
That's why I'm thankful that we recognize
7:00
those correctional officers who died in
7:02
the line of duty, hundreds of them, whose
7:04
names are on the National Law Enforcement
7:06
Officers Memorial, and that we have a
7:09
featured exhibition, a major exhibition
7:11
in the National Law Enforcement Museum
7:14
dedicated to the men and women who serve
7:16
the correctional community.
7:18
So I'm very thankful myself.
7:20
But here's the question.
7:21
The question is, could what happened in
7:24
September of 1971 with the Attica Prison
7:27
Riot, could it happen again today?
7:30
I mean, we haven't, that I can recall, I
7:32
haven't heard of a prison riot of any
7:35
great magnitude in many, many years, if
7:38
not decades, but could it happen?
7:41
And what's preventing it from happening?
7:44
Absolutely, absolutely
7:45
could happen anytime, anywhere.
7:47
Oh, back up to the riot and the early
7:49
questions, you know,
7:53
there were a lot of lessons that were
7:54
learned from the Attica Riot.
7:56
Most were bad, some were good, you know?
7:59
We learned to treat the inmates civilly
8:01
and they were beforehand, but it was low
8:03
pay, lousy jobs, no
8:06
bad food they thought.
8:08
Like I said, I wasn't there, you know,
8:10
and not a lot of out of cell time.
8:12
You know, five o'clock, 5.30 at night,
8:14
they did the count and they stayed in all
8:16
night until the morning.
8:17
Now we changed all that, like I said,
8:19
they run like small cities, they got
8:20
decent food, they got, you know, a lot of
8:23
cell time out and all the social
8:24
programs, school programs.
8:27
So, you know, and inmates, leave it or
8:30
not, would thank us.
8:32
They would thank us for being straight.
8:33
They would thank us for being on duty.
8:35
They'd say, "Hey, thank you, Officer H,
8:37
because we know when you're here, you're
8:38
not gonna let no baloney come down."
8:40
You know, the golden rule was the old
8:43
timers who went through the riot, like
8:44
combat veterans, say, "You don't want no
8:46
part of a war, you don't
8:47
want no part of a riot."
8:48
You give them everything they got coming,
8:50
nothing more, nothing less.
8:51
And we treat them civilly, you know.
8:54
Some people say what we expect, that's
8:56
all aligned too far
8:57
for correction officers.
8:58
We expect, we treat them civilly.
9:01
We teach the young guys, all business,
9:03
kid, you wanna go to the yard, you wanna
9:05
go to program, you wanna go to your
9:06
visit, you wanna go to medical, go.
9:08
If not, all you gotta do is no argument,
9:10
you just step back in yourself, close the
9:12
door, I don't care if you stay.
9:13
We had an inmate, Davidson, five years
9:16
was up in his shoe, and I had to transfer
9:19
him out, and he was going home, and they
9:20
couldn't believe, they thought he was a
9:21
mental health inmate, cause he wouldn't
9:23
speak to anybody for five years.
9:25
So I get him out in a van, and he took a
9:29
poop, and I'll be a little graphic in the
9:31
corner of his cell, and we'd only go in
9:34
there once in a while to frisk him, and
9:36
he must have had a bread seat in there,
9:37
and a little plant grew out of it, and he
9:39
said, that's my plant.
9:42
We didn't have CERT teams, correct some
9:44
emergency response teams back then, that
9:46
was one of the good things
9:47
that came out of the riot.
9:49
So they used to just get the big two
9:52
strongest COs, biggest guys that could
9:55
come in, couple of them go in there, grab
9:57
the guy, and drag him
9:57
out, whatever he did.
10:00
So now we have it, so I get him in a van,
10:03
and we put a bit of lock on me, and I got
10:05
all these big CERT guys around me, and I
10:07
said, "Fels, could I talk to him?"
10:08
He's like 30 years out of job, and I
10:10
know, when you're straight with them,
10:11
they'll be straight
10:12
with you, a lot of them.
10:14
So he turns around, he said, "Can you
10:16
step out of the room?"
10:16
We have locked in this
10:17
telephone booth visit.
10:20
They were jumping each other in their
10:22
rooms back in the day.
10:24
So we had to come up with, we'd seen the
10:26
California built these little pens that
10:28
they could sit in
10:29
there and get in the class.
10:30
So anyway, I tell them, I said, "Hey man,
10:32
you're getting out, it's your lucky day.
10:33
You're going back to Brooklyn, I'm taking
10:36
you down, can you step down and just file
10:38
the rules where we can
10:39
get you out of here?"
10:40
And he goes, "H.I. remember you, man.
10:42
You worked at C-Block with me.
10:44
You always a good
10:45
officer, straight guy, no BS."
10:47
And I said, "I'm going to tell you
10:47
straight up, I don't like people messing
10:49
with me, personally.
10:50
So I don't mess with people.
10:52
I'm going to tell you the rules, you
10:53
follow them, you
10:53
don't even know I'm here.
10:55
If you want to make a problem, I got no
10:56
problem hitting the alarm and calling for
10:57
help, sending you
10:59
wherever you need to go.
11:00
Oh, no, thank you, get me out of here."
11:02
In the van he tells me, "These are fellow
11:04
inmates, they want to push up on me.
11:07
So I beat up a couple of them."
11:08
And he was a medium sized guy.
11:10
Said they were going to rape
11:10
me, beat me up all the time.
11:13
So I said, "Screw this."
11:15
I lumped a couple guys up, "You sent me
11:17
this special housing unit and I stayed
11:19
the whole five years."
11:21
He talked so much, we had a rookie in the
11:22
back because he was a
11:23
special inmate watch.
11:25
He didn't stop for the four, five, six
11:27
hours all the way from Attica to
11:30
Manhattan, we dropped them off.
11:32
He hadn't talked to
11:33
anybody in five years, sincerely.
11:36
You got these advocate groups, "Oh, five
11:39
days in the shoe is a
11:40
mental health problem.
11:42
BS, BS.
11:45
These guys are tough,
11:46
they can handle that."
11:47
I've never seen one of them.
11:50
We had 25% of inmates with
11:52
mental health issues, sincere.
11:55
I worked at Mental Health Unit for 10
11:56
years or an hour earlier here.
11:59
Rick, I want to change the subject a
12:02
little bit because I want to bring it
12:04
back to some recent events and I want to
12:07
get your opinion on those things.
12:10
Could I stop you one second?
12:12
Yeah.
12:13
Attica, and I'll be brief for once.
12:14
After the Attica riot, they really
12:17
stiffed these families.
12:19
They went to the
12:20
graveyards, they went to their homes.
12:22
These are down home folk,
12:23
1971, in the middle of village.
12:26
Mothers didn't work back
12:27
then, they raised the kids.
12:28
These guys were making peanuts.
12:30
They said, "We're gonna take care of you.
12:32
Sign off on this and
12:34
we'll send you their check."
12:35
They sent them a six
12:35
month workman's comp program.
12:38
And then one family had eight kids.
12:41
They were under the poverty line.
12:44
And once they signed off on a check, they
12:47
eliminated their right to sue.
12:49
Now I'm understanding with police and
12:50
firemen that if they get killed in the
12:52
line of duty and that's what
12:53
happened to these officers,
12:55
they'll promote it to the next level and
12:57
give them their money and a pension.
12:59
They didn't do that.
13:00
They gave them some little life insurance
13:02
policy that was peanuts back then.
13:04
And then they were on their own.
13:05
It was so bad that town actually came up
13:07
with a little program with
13:08
a little bit of money there.
13:10
Some poor widow needed a roof.
13:12
They fixed their roof.
13:13
But if somebody needed their sink or
13:14
their toilet or a plumbing, they'd have
13:16
to wait till the next year.
13:19
20 years later, approximately, they gave
13:20
the inmates a $12 million
13:21
award for the excessive force.
13:23
That's when this Attica forgotten victims
13:25
group, the officers'
13:26
families came to light.
13:29
I had become a union leader in Attica.
13:31
I couldn't believe these stories either,
13:33
that the state would do that to them.
13:35
Bad enough they got killed in a riot and
13:37
they just hung them out there.
13:39
And they formed this little group, these
13:41
little poor little ladies who had lived
13:42
in poverty for 20 years with families.
13:45
This was down home moms.
13:46
They didn't work back then.
13:48
And when they told me the story that poor
13:49
Deke Quinn, she was a spokesman for them.
13:52
She was five years old.
13:54
Her father was William Quinn that was
13:55
murdered in Times Square.
13:57
She hadn't seen her
13:58
father for five years.
13:59
I said she was five years old.
14:01
So 25, 30 years.
14:04
Yeah, some crazy stories, huh?
14:06
We actually, Governor George Pataki,
14:09
excellent man, should
14:10
have been the president.
14:11
He heard our stories and he read with us
14:13
and they came to a, gave them the same
14:15
money that they gave to the inmates, the
14:18
12 million total figure
14:19
over so many families.
14:21
I don't know the details,
14:22
it was none of my business.
14:23
But he actually did the right thing.
14:26
So I wanna give him kudos.
14:27
And people don't know that, that these
14:29
poor families lived in
14:30
poverty for all them years.
14:33
And they told them, don't
14:35
talk about this to anyone.
14:36
And these poor down home folks never did.
14:39
There was one woman must
14:40
have had a smart family.
14:41
I forget who her
14:42
husband was or family member.
14:44
They told, don't sign it.
14:46
The lawyer came to us and he said, I got
14:49
that check, it's in my safe.
14:53
30 years later, she got like
14:55
a million dollar settlement.
14:57
Wow.
14:58
And you know, by the way, that was before
15:01
the Public Safety Officers Benefits
15:03
Program was put in
15:04
place by Congress, 1976.
15:07
They started providing a federal death
15:10
benefit to the families of public safety
15:13
officers killed in the line of duty.
15:15
And those correctional officers at Attica
15:17
would today be eligible to receive that
15:20
death benefit, which is hundreds of
15:21
thousands of dollars today.
15:23
It's going up each year with
15:24
a cost of living adjustment.
15:26
But you point out a very important point
15:28
that back then, the families were not
15:30
well taken care of at all.
15:33
The families of those officers who died
15:35
during the Attica prison.
15:37
And let me give up one minute.
15:39
Let me give up the New York State
15:41
Department of Corrections or
15:42
New York State legislature.
15:43
We had in our contract that if you got
15:45
the federal money, that they would deduct
15:47
any money that the state gave them.
15:49
Who would ever agree to that kind of a...
15:52
Right, that's very...
15:53
As you always said, the New York State
15:54
Department of Corrections and New York
15:55
State, I don't know why.
15:57
Somebody told me, I don't know if it was
15:59
the riot, 1979, probably accumulation of
16:03
both, but for some reason the state did
16:05
not like correction officers.
16:07
And I believe that.
16:09
Maybe because we're a vocal group, all
16:11
the state employees will keep quiet.
16:13
But COs, they're law and order guys.
16:15
They really were at
16:15
Attica, I was proud of them.
16:17
Rick's 37 years inside gave him a clear
16:20
lens on the debates shaping
16:22
American corrections today.
16:24
Rick, it was a very good thing.
16:26
It was a great thing that you were part
16:27
of the union and leading that union and
16:29
leading the charge to support all these
16:31
correctional officers because it's a
16:34
tough job, unrewarding job.
16:36
And it's great that you stepped up to the
16:40
plate and did the right thing.
16:41
And all the years of experience you have
16:44
now, I wanna ask you two
16:45
questions now to change the topic.
16:49
You know, the discussion these days is
16:52
about opening Alcatraz again.
16:56
I wanna know what you think about that.
16:58
Right.
16:59
Well, I'll tell you, you need, I'm a law
17:00
and order guy and I believe in
17:02
rehabilitation, but you got murderers,
17:04
whether they're cop killers or people,
17:06
you know, people I go,
17:07
well, what is a cop specialty?
17:09
Because the poor guy, law enforcement
17:11
officer, puts his uniform on to try to
17:14
protect and serve us.
17:15
He should get double the protection.
17:19
But no, if somebody stands and kills my
17:21
mother, no, he should
17:23
go to jail forever too.
17:25
I thought there's no, I
17:26
agree with my own colleagues.
17:27
No, no, no, a killer, a killer,
17:30
stay locked up.
17:32
No, look, they've let out 40,000 inmates
17:35
in New York and they're trying to tell us
17:36
that there's no crime rates going down.
17:38
I'm telling you there ain't no way in
17:40
hell 40,000 career
17:42
criminals out in the streets
17:44
aren't bringing the crime rate up.
17:46
And my cop buddy said, Ricky, there's no
17:48
federal estate requirement
17:49
to report crimes anywhere.
17:52
But we know, you know, they're doing all
17:54
kinds of, all you gotta do is watch, I
17:56
love the New York Post, they're right
17:57
wingers, but they put it the subway, the
17:59
woman gets burned alive,
18:01
stabbed, people get shot.
18:05
I'm like, come on, you need, you need a
18:09
secure environment for killers.
18:12
And no, Mark, Mark, That would be a yes,
18:15
that would be a yes.
18:16
I want to be in the health of the crime.
18:19
Absolutely.
18:20
I mean, the problem with this country is,
18:21
I go, don't happen to
18:22
me, I'm okay with it.
18:23
If you lose your job, I
18:24
feel bad, but I'm okay with it.
18:26
But when you know
18:27
them, then it's not okay.
18:28
I said, you gotta think like that's your
18:29
mother, your father, your
18:31
brother, your sister, right?
18:33
Your neighbor, how would you feel?
18:34
Of course you want
18:35
them locked up forever.
18:37
Yeah, they want them more
18:38
than locked up, believe me.
18:39
Oh, hey.
18:40
So here's the other thing.
18:42
So all of your years of experience,
18:44
you've been on the inside there.
18:46
I want to hear your
18:47
thoughts and perspective
18:50
on the Jeffrey
18:52
Epstein suicide in custody.
18:58
What do you think?
18:59
You know what we say?
19:01
Tell us.
19:01
You'll never know.
19:02
You know, truthfully, we'll never know.
19:04
But what do you think?
19:06
If somebody can do
19:06
it, the cameras are bad.
19:08
Well, I would think personally,
19:10
this guy was no dummy, and he was a math
19:12
teacher who
19:13
manipulated the market, right?
19:15
He was a big shot in his own little crew
19:17
before they found out he was such a
19:18
despicable human being.
19:21
Right?
19:24
He could have hung himself.
19:25
He could have hung himself saying, well,
19:27
I went from being a kingpin to now I'm a
19:29
scumbag like everybody, all
19:31
these other bumps in the world.
19:32
You imagine going from, I live in a
19:34
modest home, 2,000 square feet in Super.
19:38
You imagine going from them mansions to a
19:41
six by nine cell, you sleep three feet,
19:43
two feet from your toilet,
19:46
you know, which I'm gonna deal with.
19:47
What a lifestyle change, no doubt.
19:50
But it was kind of the perfect storm of
19:51
how everything kind of happened.
19:55
And, you know, do you
19:56
think that's a-- That's
19:56
a bad for them?
19:57
No, not with the
19:58
heinous crimes they committed.
19:59
No, you know,
20:01
we laugh at these big stars and these
20:03
wealthy individuals.
20:06
You could meet a woman anywhere in the
20:07
world or a man, whatever you're into.
20:10
Why would you go after underage or why
20:14
would you force anyone?
20:15
Or why would you, if regular eyes like
20:20
God's can get dates.
20:22
(Laughing)
20:22
I'd say dates for them have a Chevy.
20:24
I've got a Ferrari.
20:26
I'm sure some women in my neighborhood
20:27
wouldn't mind going for a ride with me.
20:29
Hey, so what do you say then?
20:32
So what's the bottom line for you?
20:33
You think you did commit suicide?
20:37
You know, truthfully,
20:39
I've seen them all the time.
20:41
People commit suicide in prisons.
20:43
I believe we could.
20:44
I believe we could.
20:47
How does it work though?
20:49
It's my understanding that he attempted
20:51
to die by suicide earlier than the actual
20:54
suicide that they claim caused the death.
20:57
That's when somebody dropped the ball.
21:00
Right, so he's under a suicide watch.
21:02
So my question to you as a correctional
21:03
officer is, okay, what special measures
21:06
are taken to prevent that person from
21:08
dying by suicide and why
21:11
didn't that save his life?
21:14
Well, years ago, we
21:15
had a really good system.
21:16
I can tell you, 1984, when I got in there
21:18
after the riot, they
21:19
learned a lot of good lessons.
21:21
We would take a guy's strip cell.
21:23
We would take all his clothes.
21:25
We'd put him in a, it was a cell with,
21:29
some of them were just like a concrete
21:31
bed, some were to steal,
21:34
no fabric at all.
21:36
And he would sit in there butt naked
21:38
until he learned to, that was the way,
21:41
and then these advocates,
21:42
who said that was inhumane.
21:44
And we said, "What would
21:45
we give them their clothes?"
21:46
They hang themselves with their pants or
21:48
their shirts or their, and then they came
21:50
up with this Barney Rubble suit.
21:52
It looked like the Flintstones, or the
21:53
old one piece shoulder
21:55
straps that Fred and Barney wore.
21:58
And it was fabric, Betis was strong.
22:00
Well, these guys learned, they're
22:02
ingenious, these bums, they ripped it
22:03
apart, and they'll take the strings,
22:05
they'll hang themselves with that.
22:07
In fact, we had an incident in Attica,
22:09
where they blamed the officers and the
22:10
sergeant on this suicide, and I said,
22:15
"'Cause you make us give
22:16
them their clothes back.
22:18
People don't listen to comments.
22:20
Get to the legislator making these laws
22:22
and say you're wrong.
22:23
I'm not saying you're an idiot, you don't
22:25
know what you're doing.
22:26
I'm saying you don't understand what we
22:28
were accomplishing
22:29
here, then don't blame us."
22:31
Well, no, these- When the sergeant fired
22:33
and the officers fired over that, and
22:35
they were good officers.
22:36
I'm like, "You make them give them the
22:38
clothes, and nobody in the superintendent
22:40
in his depth won't go in and say, "Well,
22:42
the law's saying we have to give them
22:43
their clothes," and they used it.
22:45
And we would, for people don't
22:47
understand, we don't
22:48
have one-on-one officers.
22:49
Like I said, we had 600
22:50
officers, 2,200 inmates.
22:52
Back in the day, we had
22:52
to make rounds every hour.
22:55
Then for me, the mental health unit was
22:56
like every half an hour.
22:57
Now I believe they got
22:58
them every 15 minutes.
23:00
But what people don't understand is,
23:03
I make it around every 15 minutes, and
23:05
you got me on camera.
23:06
He has 14 minutes to hang
23:08
himself before I'm back.
23:11
Well, you know, and the other- You were
23:13
doing a lot of watches.
23:14
The other thing is you're talking about
23:15
people that are the most
23:17
treacherous, diabolical minds.
23:22
They have all day to sit there in a cell
23:26
and figure shit out and think things
23:29
through, and they figure a way.
23:33
Right, we got cartel guys, we had mafia
23:36
guys, we had every different gang members
23:41
you could believe in.
23:42
It was funny, like I said, in New York,
23:44
some states, big states like California,
23:45
they got guns and they
23:47
got double the population.
23:48
Their business is just running people.
23:50
They say they never get
23:50
a chance to talk to them.
23:51
Well, we didn't have guns,
23:52
we had to talk to these guys.
23:54
And when you get them
23:54
alone, they tell you everything.
23:57
These guys sit around telling you that
23:58
Columbus just does money in this country,
24:00
there'll be nothing officer in Columbia,
24:02
I get girls, I get food, I get drugs, I
24:06
get moves right to myself.
24:07
And New York rookies would go, what?
24:09
I go, no, you ever go on Netflix.
24:11
There's reporters who
24:12
do these documentaries.
24:13
It's all true, it's all true.
24:16
Hey, Rick,
24:18
unfortunately we're coming to a close,
24:20
but I do have a final question
24:22
and it's a two-part question.
24:26
There were some of the correctional
24:27
officers, maybe all of them, who were
24:30
involved in the Attica Prison Riot, some
24:32
who were taken hostage.
24:33
I've heard their stories personally,
24:36
and they were nearly killed, all right?
24:39
Or some of them very
24:40
seriously injured, shot several times.
24:43
They went back to work at Attica, days
24:47
later, months later, but they went back.
24:50
And it's hard for me to understand why
24:52
they would have done that.
24:54
And then the second part of the question
24:55
is, would you recommend a career in
24:59
corrections today to young people?
25:02
Yeah, well, back then,
25:03
like I said, it was down home.
25:05
There wasn't much to do.
25:05
It was either be a
25:06
farmer or get a state job.
25:08
So corrections, a lot of
25:10
guys, I wouldn't use Mr.
25:11
Allmeader's name.
25:13
He was one of the hostages.
25:14
They beat the living hell out of him.
25:16
They didn't tell him
25:16
they stripped him naked.
25:17
They whacked him with their sticks and
25:19
brooms and beat him whatever
25:20
way, walking to a gauntlet.
25:22
Nobody ever tells you all that.
25:23
They treated him bad.
25:25
They didn't kill him, they got.
25:27
And they said they're the family.
25:30
They had nothing else to do.
25:31
And they went back to work.
25:32
And I give them all the clues in the
25:33
world because I'll be a
25:34
little bit outrageous.
25:35
I said, I would have went back there,
25:37
punched the superintendent in the mouth,
25:38
probably said, I'll set
25:39
a block on fire and left.
25:42
That's what I would have done.
25:43
Yeah, I don't suggest that you do that.
25:46
And the second one, we just had 10,000
25:48
officers walk on a
25:49
strike and unbelievable.
25:51
As a union leader, I used to say, we
25:52
should go on strike.
25:53
My vice president of the Sharp guys said,
25:55
we can't be able to tell all these guys
25:57
live paycheck to
25:58
paycheck, we're working steps.
25:59
And I said, I understand.
26:01
But the only thing this government, this
26:03
state in America ever
26:04
understands is money.
26:06
So these guys walked off the job and I
26:07
couldn't believe it.
26:08
And they called me up because I know I
26:09
represented them, I think for 26 years in
26:11
one way, shape or form.
26:14
Most of these guys couldn't take the
26:15
pressure and they'd
26:16
last one term or something.
26:18
But I'm an old steel worker, auto worker,
26:21
stand up for yourself.
26:22
That's the only way
26:23
we made things better.
26:25
So these poor COs, I'm
26:26
like, and I was one of them.
26:27
I said, oh yeah, they can't pay us enough
26:29
for this environment.
26:31
But if we get the best pay and the best
26:33
benefits that we can,
26:36
here's the hard part about being law
26:38
enforcement and the CO, the
26:39
job will always be the job.
26:41
You'll always be surrounded by inmates.
26:44
You'll always be locked up.
26:45
Like we used to say, if you did 25 years
26:46
in New York, 8 1 3rd, you
26:48
were locked behind the wall.
26:49
So as a correction
26:51
officer, you did it 8 1 3rd
26:53
and got like me with 37,
26:55
I must've did 12 years.
26:58
And then they got them working such crazy
27:01
hours because they're low staff.
27:03
I mean, like I used to work two, three
27:05
days over time, about 800 hours a year.
27:07
These guys are working
27:08
thousand, 2000, 3000 hours.
27:10
I don't know how that's possible because
27:12
one year I did about
27:13
960, I was a walking zombie.
27:15
I couldn't function.
27:17
But I worked three days in a row, some
27:19
early shifts, some hospital duty.
27:20
I fell out at the hospital.
27:22
The boss had to send me a relief.
27:23
They took me up to the ER and the doctor
27:25
says, well, rich
27:26
officer, what are you doing?
27:27
I go doc, three hours of
27:28
sleep, last three nights.
27:30
He said, officer,
27:30
you're gonna kill yourself.
27:32
Are you crazy?
27:33
You need sleep.
27:34
You're dehydrated.
27:35
So then they came up with 24 hour shifts,
27:38
which I don't know
27:38
whoever agreed to that.
27:40
You can't, I couldn't do more than 16.
27:42
You fall asleep.
27:43
They used to want to write us
27:44
up if they caught us sleeping.
27:45
And what do you do now?
27:47
And now they got these
27:48
guys under emergency.
27:49
I hate to say it, New York state
27:50
government, this is rich, our girl
27:52
speaking, nobody else.
27:54
Terrible, terrible working condition.
27:56
The governor and the commissioner said,
27:57
oh, they'll look into it.
27:58
They did nothing for these guys.
27:59
And these guys had told me, Ricky, if
28:01
you're working during the week, Monday to
28:02
Friday, we work on a wheel.
28:04
You're getting stuck three times.
28:06
If it was your weekend of work, we used
28:08
to get weekends like
28:09
every six to seventh week.
28:11
We had squad eight jobs.
28:13
You were getting stuck five days a week.
28:15
I said, nobody can
28:15
work that kind of hours.
28:17
You know, your wife, you know, these
28:19
people, well, you make the money.
28:20
Well, your wife says, hey, I
28:21
got three young kids at home.
28:22
They drive me crazy.
28:23
If you don't come home, you ain't gonna
28:24
have a home to come to.
28:26
The important thing is now, look at you.
28:30
You still look good.
28:31
You look healthy.
28:33
You made it.
28:34
You survived.
28:35
And here we are talking to
28:36
you, wrapping this up today.
28:38
Give me one second.
28:39
And I promise I took a police course when
28:42
I was a rookie, how to survival, how to
28:45
survive high risk patrol.
28:47
Best police course,
28:48
psychologists, cops, no department BS.
28:52
We're not here to say
28:52
you got a good chief.
28:53
You'll have a good job, a good place.
28:56
You got a bad chief.
28:57
You'd have a bad job.
28:57
That's all we're gonna talk about.
28:59
And the psychologist, I don't know who
29:01
this man was, but he saved my life.
29:02
He said, you're gonna
29:03
see tragic horrific things.
29:05
You're gonna have to deal with them.
29:06
If you don't, it's like a volcano.
29:08
It's brewing.
29:10
And one day when you don't deal with the
29:11
stress, it just blows.
29:12
That's why poor cops have affairs.
29:14
That's why they get divorced.
29:15
That's why they become alcoholics.
29:17
That's why they eat.
29:19
A lot of us are heavy.
29:21
People have fat lazy cops.
29:22
No, the stress of the job.
29:24
And you eat a pizza or a burger.
29:26
You take that stress away for a minute.
29:28
It's good.
29:29
And it relieves the stress.
29:30
I used to tell them, these departments
29:32
should have in-service stress
29:33
training for these officers.
29:35
We're not weak, we're human.
29:37
And that's what we used to talk about.
29:38
If you ever wanted to leave a CO job,
29:41
your family, my father would say, oh,
29:42
thank God, I'd never liked
29:43
you working in that prison.
29:44
And I went to Attica.
29:45
He was shot twice in
29:46
Korea, the shoulder and the hip.
29:49
And he lived.
29:50
And he gave me the application.
29:52
When he heard I was going to Attica, I
29:53
was 24 years old, he
29:54
goes, you're going to where?
29:55
Say, Attica, do you have any ideas on
29:57
what you're getting into?
29:58
I think, yeah, I got a pretty good idea.
30:00
I used to travel the
30:00
East Coast by myself.
30:02
I was six foot two, 10, I'm not afraid.
30:04
And he says, oh God bless you son.
30:06
You have no idea what
30:06
you're getting into.
30:08
And God bless him.
30:09
That's all.
30:10
Today and every day.
30:11
Right on the monitor.
30:11
The fatherly advice, yeah.
30:13
Anyway, Rick, let me end by saying this,
30:17
that after you've described the working
30:19
conditions and they're
30:21
not all that favorable,
30:23
and you're dealing with some tough people
30:25
behind the walls of a prison facility,
30:28
but thank God there are some 500,000
30:32
correctional officers, men and women who
30:34
are willing to work under those
30:37
conditions to take the risks that
30:39
correctional officers have to take and
30:42
protect the prison population, but really
30:45
provide security and protection for the
30:48
rest of society from these criminals who
30:50
are now serving their
30:52
time and serving justice.
30:55
I wanna thank you.
30:56
I've known you for many years.
30:58
We haven't had a chance to have this
30:59
level of discussion.
31:01
I'm glad we did.
31:02
But you've really, I think, enlightened a
31:04
lot of people about what it's like to be
31:06
a correctional officer, how tough it can
31:08
be, but also how rewarding.
31:10
There are obvious benefits and better pay
31:14
today, certainly
31:15
better compensation overall,
31:18
and a much better working condition than
31:20
they had back in September of 1971 when
31:24
the deadliest prison riot
31:26
in American history occurred.
31:28
So thank you for sharing that story.
31:30
Yes, sir.
31:31
And I wanna end the show simply thanking
31:34
our audience, reminding you that Heroes
31:37
Behind the Badge, our podcast,
31:41
is on YouTube.
31:43
You can subscribe, you can like, you can
31:48
comment on what you heard today.
31:51
And please do.
31:52
That helps, obviously, our ratings and
31:55
increases our audience, but it also means
31:57
that you're gonna be the first to know of
31:59
the next episode that comes out.
32:01
And we do this at least twice a month.
32:03
So I encourage you to
32:05
like, subscribe, and comment.
32:08
And on behalf of Citizens Behind the
32:11
Badge, which produces this podcast, I
32:14
wanna thank our guest, Rick Harcrow, my
32:16
co-host, Bill Erfurth.
32:18
And until next time, we'll see you then.
32:22
(Upbeat Music)