Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #188: The New Food Pyramid: Nina Teicholz Exposes More Corruption & Publishes New Dietary Guidelines to Reverse Disease

Transcript

Episode #188: The New Food Pyramid: Nina Teicholz Exposes More Corruption & Publishes New Dietary Guidelines to Reverse Disease · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: I discovered that there were industry scientists, in other words, the industry that makes seed oils were sending scientists to conferences to harass and berate other scientists who were giving presenting findings that were negative about trans fats.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: I literally spoke to a science who said it was my job to go after them at these conferences.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: I talked to an early researcher on trans fats named Mary Enig, who had the margarine industry uh executives come and visit her in her office to try to squelch her from publishing an article on trans fats.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: I spoke to an editor of a medical journal who said she had the margarine industry come to her office to try to pressure her not to publish the article.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: So all these stories were just mind-boggling to me.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Cena McKella.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here with our favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: And today we have another amazing guest.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Her name is Dr.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Nina Taischulz.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: She has a PhD in nutrition, specifically focused on dietary guidelines, which, if you're listening, you know that's one of our favorite topics on this show is debunking the dietary guidelines.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: But Nina is an investigative science journalist and a leader in nutrition reporting who uh who is re-challenging the conventional wisdom on dietary fat, particularly whether saturated fat causes heart disease and whether fat really makes you fat.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: She is a New York Times bestselling author of the book The Big Fat Surprise, which I have right here.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you have not read this book, I highly recommend it.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: She's the one that broke the story about Ansel Keys.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: She'll share some today.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she also serves as an executive director of the Nutrition Coalition, which is an independent, nonprofit group that promotes evidence-based nutrition policy.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And she argues that diets lower in carbohydrate are a scientifically sound approach for reversing nutrition-related diseases.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the program.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, thanks for having me, Zina and Joel.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's great to be here with you.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: I just have one correction to the bio, which is I'm no, I'm no longer and haven't been for a couple of years, the executive director of my group, but I am the founder of it.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been around for um a decade now.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's amazing.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's such a great group with such great information on that website.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So check it out.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you also in March of this year, you and a um a group of other um individuals have published a new article in nutrients, and it's called Myths and Facts Regarding Low Carbohydrate Diets.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is, as you guys say, to your knowledge, the first to address potential misconceptions about low carbohydrate and ketogenic diets comprehensively.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say this is a good read.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy to understand, it's highly informative.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the criteria that you guys laid out for the studies that you are willing to um to basically cite in this, because a lot of times people will cite observational epidemiological studies, and you guys went beyond that um to cite really gold standard in a lot of instances studies to support the claims in this.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very great article.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna include a link to it um in the show description.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, before we jump into this, because I do want you to talk about this new food guide pyramid that you guys have proposed in this article.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's incredible.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Before we jump into all of that, I want to know how did you actually get involved in this path?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did you um what was your path that led you to write the big fat surprise and get into dietary guidelines in the first place?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, I was a journalist.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I worked for NPR.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: I worked from Latin America and in DC as a journalist.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then uh I was, and then I went freelance and started writing stories.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: I had been assigned a series of food stories about the food industry.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: Really, I think they were some of the first stories to analyze the food industry.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, one of the things about nutrition reporting is that most of the people who do nutrition reporting in most of our media outlets, they come from like nutrition is like a light lifestyle thing.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: So it's, you know, there are cookbook authors who do nutrition reporting, and there's people who come from the lifestyle section.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's just not considered a serious industry.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so Gourmet magazine, this is in the early 2000s, started, we started doing a serious look at the food industry and how, you know, you if you were to if you were to do stories on military spending, you would look at the influence of military contractors or, you know, follow the money as you're taught to in journalism.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: But that just doesn't happen in nutrition reporting.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I was assigned to do a story on trans fats, um, which people probably don't even remember now, but they are uh a byproduct of hardening seed oils.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: So when you take a seed oil, like the first hardened seed oil was Crisco, which was introduced to Americans in 1911.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's actually how seed oils came into our food supply originally.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: If you and hardened seed oils were like the backbone of our entire food industry, because it's a stable solid fat that's cheap.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, but when you harden them, a byproduct of that process, which is called hydrogenation, is trans fats.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: And there started to be data coming out about how those were bad for health.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: So that investigating that story just really was a mind-boggling experience because I discovered that there were industry scientists, in other words, the industry that makes seed oils were sending scientists to conferences to harass and berate other scientists who were giving, presenting findings that were negative about trans fats.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: I literally spoke to a science who said it was my job to go after them at these conferences.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: I talked to an early researcher on trans fats named Mary Enig, who had the margarine industry uh executives um come and visit her in her office to try to squelch her from publishing an article on trans fats.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: I spoke to an editor of a medical journal who said she had the margarine industry come to her office to try to pressure her not to publish the article.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: So all these stories were just mind-boggling to me.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like I thought, you know, I grew up in a family, my father was an engineer, and I just thought that science progressed like the way we were taught, like hypothesis and then antithesis, and then there would be challenges, and then scientists would rationally figure it out.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: And instead, what I saw was like this wild west of industry trying to squelch and suppress scientific findings.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: So it really just was such, it was such an eye-opening experience to research that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then that led to that article was really a big, big article for um Gourmet magazine.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, the editor of Gourmet at the time, Ruth Reichel, wrote in her biography something that I only discovered later, which is that because my article was critical, really the first ever critical article of on seed oils, Proctor and Gamble had threatened to pull all their advertising from the magazine if she ran it.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: And she said one of her proudest moments as an editor was standing up to them and publishing it anyway.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: So that article became a book contract.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Then it's a long, nine-year-long story of me really going down the rabbit hole, doing tons of research.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: My research, my interest in fats just expanded beyond trans fats into all dietary fat, which is a crazy history of how we got into the misguided advice we have today.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, good fat, bad fat, non-fat, low fat, that's what Americans have obsessed about and been told to obsess about most in our diet.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: So then, yeah, nine years later, I came out with that book after having interviewed just hundreds of scientists all over the world and reading like everything I could find.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that book uh turned out to be on why we had gotten it wrong on saturated fats on the low-fat diet, and we had gotten it wrong on why, you know, on the advice to replace saturated fats with seed oils.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, and then after that book came out um in 2015, I the dietary guidelines were coming out.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they're put out by every five years by jointly by USDA and Department of Health and Human Services.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I read the 470-something page expert report that's supposed to inform the guidelines.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it was, it was such terrible, contradictory science.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: I couldn't find any of the studies that I like, all the rigorous clinical trials that had been done to try to inform the guidelines were not included in any of the reviews, the scientific reviews done by USDA.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the staff for the science on the guidelines is at USDA.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: And that, and I thought, well, maybe they just don't know about this science.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that was so hugely naive.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I founded this nonprofit, the nutrition coalition, with the goal of like, let's bring the science to the guidelines.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they don't know about it, let's bring it to them, let's organize.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then it was, you know, it's been a long, very educational process to understand that they aren't interested in the science, that there's something else going on here.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that's just that's just sent me down this path.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm still, I mean, still my book today is um like still that science has not been accepted, right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, I've been writing about it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: There's another journalist named Gary Taubes who's been writing about it longer than I, but still we cannot get that science up to the media, up to our uh, you know, authorities who create dietary guidelines.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, maybe that's a longer than you wanted, but it has been a kind of long path.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's I love that because you've lived it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like we can tell stories, you know, about backdoor deals and all these things going on, but you actually lived it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you're an eyewitness to it.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so why do you think that is?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think that even after all these years and after all this great this this book is packed with scientific studies, you know, um references to substantiate the claims to basically disprove that seed oils are healthy and that we we should not be consuming low fat?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, in your research, why do you think that is that it hasn't been uh that the that the US terror the dietary guidelines committee isn't interested, or you know, the the higher-ups aren't interested, that we can't get it out there into media.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: What's preventing that truth from coming out?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, well, that's kind of a a long story.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: And and I uh, you know, the dietary guidelines were which were launched in 1980, they got it wrong from the start.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: They didn't review any of the major clinical trials that had been done by the National Institutes of Health.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm talking like billions of dollars of trials on tens of thousands of people had been done.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: All of those were ignored.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: So what those trials said was saturated fats does not prevent heart disease.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there had been no, almost no clinical trials on the low-fat diet at the time.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: But they they started with a diet that they basically inherited from the American Heart Association, with which, which is very close to the government.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but there was already a uh kind of a dogma about low, don't eat saturated fat, don't eat dietary cholesterol, eat a low-fat diet that had already started with the American Heart Association in 1961.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: USDA just took all that on board.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: And there were people scientists from the American Heart Association that deeply influenced that process, that were the major advisors for that, the generation of the guidelines.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: So they started off with the wrong diet.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Why have they not been able to correct course is like a huge long story.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we have gone to those committees with the science.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: I've had top scientists go and visit top officials at USDA and HHS.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: We've gotten Congress involved.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I, you know, I don't want it to, I want to try to simplify it for your audience, but there are major forces working against change.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just start with like an easy and obvious one is just the resistance of bureaucracies to change.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: They're not change agents.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's not the way they're set up.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: They're meant to prevent to preserve the status quo.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: There's also the tremendous uh fear of flip-flopping on the public, right?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: You lose the public's trust and to get something wrong of this magnitude, to say, hey, that low-fat, low cholesterol diet we've been telling you would make you healthy has in fact made you not just not healthy, but probably made you sick and provoked the chronic disease epidemics.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if you look at obesity in America, it was 9.6% of the population in 1960.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: 9.6%.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: So the dietary guidelines come along in 1980, sharp upward tick in obesity rates, which are now, I mean, I would say they're now probably at 50%.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: The latest number that was published by the government was from 2014.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: They have not given us a number since.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: In 2014, it was over 42%.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: So just imagine now, also, you know, post-lockdown, post-epidemic, it's, I think very likely it's close to 50%.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: But it was the guidelines that tick that upwards.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a very like sharp change.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that's one of the reasons is that the guidelines are hugely influential.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they really, all federal food programs are mandated to follow the guidelines.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: So that's your school lunch programs, feeding programs for the elderly, women and infant children, hospital foods, and all that, but they're also downloaded as like the virtual gold standard to all healthcare professionals.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: So doctors, nurses, nutritionists, dietitians, all, you know, that's their Bible.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's their North Star.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: So when you go to the doctor's office or anybody's any nutrition advice is, you know, coming from the guidelines.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: And just to review, if you're getting advice to eat more fruits, vegetables, whole grains, lean protein, lean, you know, non-fat dairy, uh, vegetable oils, that's the guidelines.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: So you're getting the guidelines.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's what I think most people believe is a healthy diet.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: But just going back to the question of why we can't change.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: So bureaucratic inertia, cognitive dissonance of being wrong, fear of losing the public, the confidence of the public, um, which is can be devastating to public agencies, as we've seen recently.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: Other forces, the food industry.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: The food industry, in the analysis that we did of uh the dietary guideline committee in 2020, it's the only published systematic review of any committee.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: We found that 95% of committee members had a tie to food or pharma, and half the committee had 30 such ties or more.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: One of the committee members had 152 ties to food or pharma.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, I found out that more than 100 companies have partnerships with the direct office that oversees the guidelines at USDA.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a and the USDA, there their stakeholders are farmers, growers, but also Unilever, Nestle.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, those, those are the folks, those are the lobbyists that they're meeting with, the American Consumer Goods Association, the American Beverage Association.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: Those are, that's who their stakeholders are.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: So there's the opposition of the food industry, there's, and particularly the ultra-processed food industry, as you know, people like to call it, because they're the big organized, giant multinational companies.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's not, you know, it's not Joe Farmer who's going in there.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's the big multinational companies that most that are most often show up as um as influencing these expert committees that run the guidelines.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: And then uh there's the pharmaceutical industry.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Their, you know, their sweet spot um uh model is to, you know, it's chronic disease.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Take four or five pills as the average American does every month for the rest of your life.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: By the time you're older, you're taking nine or ten.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's their that's a constant income stream for them.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: And you just like for them, people getting healthy through food is not modeled that they benefit from.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then I can go on.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: The animal rights movement, which is quite powerful and has a lot of followers, they don't want people eating animal foods.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: The global climate um movement um also doesn't want people eating, especially eating meat because they believe cows cause global warming.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I've ticked off all the, you know, and then there's all the expert nutrition scientists at places like Harvard and Stanford and Johns Hopkins who um who also don't want to be wrong, so have a lot of cognitive dissonance, and as I've turned up in my reporting, have a ton of conflicts of interest and are getting funded by food companies.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, there's those are a lot of um, those are a lot of obstacles to change.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you know, Cena, uh, we would be, we would be remiss if at right now, at this point, we didn't just uh kind of um uh in a bit of satire or humor uh point out that what what Dr.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: Nina has just described, it's only in nutrition.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't happen in any other sector of our of our nation, of our country.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: It it only happens when we talk about nutrition.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: I just had to point that out just so we could uh we can have a moment of levity here uh in the in the podcast.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think one of the reasons people are more aware of the problems in nutrition is that they have uh their eyes have been opened about other areas of health and how they're you know they're not being given good information and good information is suppressed or canceled.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that you know that has been going on in nutrition uh from since the 1920s, I've been documenting uh, you know, corruption in the food industry.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I mean, that's the farthest back that I know it to have been occurring of industry paying off scientists.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: And but yeah, I I mean I think the American public is kind of ready to reckon with some of this information.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_04: Well, the the the pen the pendulum has to swing far enough to one side that it that it finally gets whatever obvious, it gets to be people's personal stories.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, now now they know somebody.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, when I was growing up, there was no such phrase as food allergy.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I'm a little I'm substantially older than Cena, but uh you know, we if you wanted a birthday party for three-year-olds, the moms didn't have to spend a week before the party asking who what they could have.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I mean, and and and so so it took it takes a while.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_04: Nature's very forgiving, fortunately, and um and can handle a lot of abuse, but eventually nature bats last.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: The balance has to be paid, and I think that pendulum has swung to the point.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, what is it now?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, RFK Jr.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_04: points out all the time that of the 40 richest countries on the pl, the 40 quote unquote rich, you know, rich countries on the planet, the U.S.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_04: is at the bottom, number 40 in uh you know sickness, uh, chronic chronic illness uh data.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, I think that number is refers to the amount of money we spend on diet and health, on on medical care versus our outcomes.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like we had we spend the most money per patient and have the worst outcomes outcomes of any Western nation.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: Good.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, Nina, what I would love for you to do is uh walk us through what what was the with, for example, macronutrient content of our diets before the dietary guidelines versus what they are now so that people can understand.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Just how significant the guidelines have been in our eating habits.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot of people, particularly our audience, our audience is very well educated.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll say, like, um, because I did the same thing.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: They'll be like, oh, well, I know the dietary guidelines are just bunk and I don't follow those anyway.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that doesn't apply to me.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can kind of wrap that in, like, why how why should they care?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Not just that it's in all these other programs that they might not be involved in, but why should somebody care about um what the dietary guidelines are?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then what was the difference in the macronutrient content before and after them?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: Well, like like like especially like before 1980.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: So okay, let's go back to 1960.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: I remember I said obesity rates 9.6%.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: The we have data from government data from 1965 showing that at that point Americans were eating about 45% of their calories as fat.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: So remember the low-fat diet was reduced that to 25 to 30%.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: But 45% of our calories is fat, 39% as carbohydrates, and the rest is protein.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: So what do the dietary guidelines recommend?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Over 50% of our calories is fat.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: So between 15 and 55, sorry, as carbohydrate.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Between 50 and 55% of calories in the dietary guidelines are carbohydrate.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: Fat is 31 to 32%.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: So basically, still a low-fat diet, even though they don't use low-fat language.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's your classic USDA double speak there.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then the rest is protein.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: Protein has stayed more or less constant, a little bit less now.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: But there's also a USDA vegetarian pattern, which is quite low in protein.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's like 13% and higher in carbohydrates, closer to 55%.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's a huge change.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: Huge.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I have data on the homepage of the Nutrition Coalition, which is nutritioncoalition.us, showing how dramatically Americans have complied with those guidelines.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: So in every single food category measured from 1970 to 19, sorry, 1970 to 2014, which is the only data that we have it available for, because it has to be adjusted and all this, shows 79% decrease in whole milk, 25% decrease in red meat, 35% decrease in beef, butter, and uh is down 13, 14%, eggs by about the same.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: And in every so this is true in every single category of food they measure.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like everything we've been told to eat less of, we eat less of.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: And everything we've been told to eat more of, we eat more of.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: So we eat 20 to 35% more fruits and vegetables, about 30% more grains, um, 89% more vegetable oils.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we have Americans have complied with the guidelines, and that's also true for macronutrients.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: So we're up about 30% in carbohydrates and down 25% in fat as a percent of total calories, down in saturated fat by 17%.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: So we've done a really good job of following the guidelines.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Why should people care?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, one thing is like the dietary guidelines did change all of our perceptions about food.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, what was considered a normal, say, balanced diet back in, you know, my grandparents' day was a lot more meat.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: People were eating like roasts, you know, several times a week or at least on Sundays.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was that was normal.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Now what we consider to be normal is almost no meat, many, many more fruits and vegetables that used to be eaten.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so we have to understand the guidelines and all of the media that has come with it.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we get they're taught in K through 12 education.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: They are they're taught in medical schools.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like we don't under even understand how much they have suffused our understanding of healthy eating.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: But beyond that, your kids in school or your grandkids are getting the guidelines, those terrible school meals, um, which uh, you know, no only non-fat or 1% milk, that's all based on the guidelines, and kids are getting fed that.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: So our next generation of folks is getting um harmed by the guidelines, our poor people through all these programs.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: But maybe more directly for people, if you end up wind up in the hospital, you get fed the guidelines.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: You can only get seed oils in the guidelines, even their diabetic meals like pancakes with syrup.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they just it's I there's a group in the UK of diabetics who, people with diabetes who are suing a hospital because they had reversed their type 2 diabetes with a low carbohydrate diet.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: They went into the hospital for something and their diabetes came back.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're getting sicker in the hospital on that food.
• 27:05
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, your cafeteria food is likely to be based on that.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it really does affect almost all Americans, unless you're really living off the land on your own and um homeschooling your kids.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I found that even things like seed oils kind of just creep in there, like in the processed and ultra-processed foods.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was buying some organic, like certified organic, uh, non-GMO, glyphosate residue-free, certified crackers for my kids that were also grain-free.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you flip it over, and on there's only like five ingredients, and one of them is a seed oil.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's crazy.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: On the grain-free organic chips, I flip it over.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's the seed oil, there's sunflower oil.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: There, I mean, it's everywhere.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, is it accurate to say the dietary guidelines do trickle down into formulations of processed and ultra-processed foods?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a consideration?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'll tell you an amazing story, it's just that I sat down.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's a company called ADM, which is a huge multinational company that makes most of the ingredients in our food.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: And they work very closely with food producers.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I sat down with an executive there, and he said, This is how we formulate food.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: We figure out what we want to say on the nutrition facts panel.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: So every food, when you flip it over, has that like percent daily value of different stuff, uh, different nutrients, macronutrients.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, Well, we want it to come out at 2% fat and this percent of saturated fat.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: And he's like, and then from there, we back engineer into what the product ought to be.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: In the case he was describing to me, it was like some kind of low-fat yogurt.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's the way they formulate food.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: What are those daily values?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: What is that fact panel based on?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: The dietary guidelines.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, like everything is formulated to follow the guidelines.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you really can't escape it.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: No, you can't.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you yes, it's it is everywhere.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, infant formula, number one ingredient is corn syrup, and they're also required to use seed oils.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: So required?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like by law, required?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, because a tiny amount of uh there's a tiny amount of of what's certain kinds of fatty acids that are essential for life.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's link call linoleic and linolinic acid that are present in seed oils.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so those are required in the infant formula, but most infant formulas are majority soybean oil, which is you know, oxidizes highly, um, drives inflammation.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's what most so you I mean, I I used infant formula.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: I had no idea.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think people realize.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's just everywhere.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just was reminded we had um Dr.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Chris Kenobi on the show previously, who I adore him.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: He talked about seed oils, and he said something that actually so I didn't know it surprised me.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: He said that um, like over the past few decades, we haven't actually changed our sugar consumption.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of us blame, a lot of blame for disease increase has been on sugar.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: He said that actually hasn't really changed much.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's largely been uh a large contributor has been the dramatic increased consumption of seed oils.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are you also finding that to be true in your research?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: No, he and I, I would say differ um on our uh interpretation of the science.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: So he used the kinds of so there has been an increase in seed oils and there has been a decrease in sugar consumption.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: A decrease?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: A decrease in sugar sugar consumption.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: I yes, if we believe, you know, this is from I'm quoting now government data since 1999.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it could be that they may, I haven't looked into that number in great detail.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: It could be that that they are not measuring uh, you know, things that are masquerading is that are sugar, but masquerading is other names, right?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of things that end in OSE that are sugars but are not necessarily counted as sugars.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm not so sure about that.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: Kenobi mainly relies on the data from One World data, which is um a Gates-funded organization.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: I don't particularly think they're I don't particularly trust their data, but here's the important piece of science to realize, which is that seed oils have increased.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's rigorous data to show that they cause oxidation.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is well known within the industry, and I spent years just hanging out with seed oil industry scientists because remember, I was studying trans fats.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: They cause they oxidize and drive inflammation.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: That is known.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: We also know from clinical trial data, multiple randomized controlled clinical trials on large populations, that they cause people to die at higher rates of cancer.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: That is that is known in my mind because of the rigorous data supporting it.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: What we do not have rigorous data for is that they drive obesity, diabetes, or any other kind of disease.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: There is suggestive data, but I do not think it's what I would consider to be conclusive yet.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, it still could be possible.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's just that, and we have very few studies on seed oils because who funds studies?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: The food industry, and the food industry is not interested in having conferences on seed oils.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: There hasn't been one since the early 1970s, even though there are conferences on carbohydrates every year.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and there's been very little funding for seed oil studies.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: How to explain sugar going down while carb while obesity and diabetes and everything else are still going up.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, well, one, again, I'm not sure about that sugar data number, but let's say it's true.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason for that is that chronic disease, all these diseases that we're talking about are really driven by your total carbohydrate consumption.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, in you know, carbohydrates are in starches.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: So we're talking about um bread, pasta, rice, uh, those are the potatoes, those are the obvious ones, but some things less obvious to people are beans, legumes carry a big load of starch, nuts carry a big load of starch.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: And starch is just sugar molecules holding hands.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the moment you eat it, that's sugar in your body.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: Your body doesn't know the difference.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Often your what's called a glycemic response, which is your blood sugars spiking up after you eat stuff, is higher on whole grain, dark breads than it is on white bread.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's higher on brown rice than it is on white rice.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: So your body just responds to the glucose in sugars or starches.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: Your body doesn't care where it comes from.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: And then we eat a lot more fruits.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: Fruits, there's a lot of high sugar fruits.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, if you're eating mango, pineapple, but even just an apple will cause for many people the same glucose response in their blood sugar as a candy bar.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: Not everyone, but a lot of people.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: Bananas, same thing.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: So what the clinical trial literature shows is that it's the reduction in total carbohydrates that will reverse chronic diseases.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because you have to bring down the carbohydrates, that brings down your insulin levels.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we can go into that in detail, but really it's the total carbohydrate load on your body that matters.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why, even if you could be reducing sugar, if you're still eating a lot of bread, pasta, but you know, all the that, you're you're not gonna get better and people haven't gotten better.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love this because I was jumping up and down when I read your article that just came out.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because as Joel knows, we've talked about this on the program a lot.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: That uh one of one of my specialties is reversing uh chronic and autoimmune conditions.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when people ask me, well, what do you eat?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I almost died from an autoimmune condition and fully healed for over 10 years now, like not in remission, fully healed.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when they ask me, well, what kind of diet do you eat?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're usually shocked because I tell them, I eat um a diet that's high in healthy fats, you know, like the animal fats, you know, so a low of low carbohydrate diet, people are floored.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, how in the world does that work?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And aren't you concerned about heart disease or you know, a heart attack or a stroke because you're eating all this fat?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I want you, if you if you feel comfortable, I would love for you to describe this pyramid, this new food pyramid that you guys have have created for um people with metabolic disease, and then talk.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us what the pyramid is, and then talk about some of the data that you guys pulled together in this study to substantiate all the many benefits of a low carbohydrate diet and to dispel this myth that um, like if you eat low carbohydrate, if you eat red meat, you're gonna have um heart disease, um, or even gut health problems.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: People are really hung up on you gotta have all this fiber.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: So if you can maybe go into some of these in great detail, that would be yeah, maybe you can prompt me because I don't have the paper right in front of me, but people should know the ketogenic diet has been around since the early 1900s.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: It was used actually to cure people from type 2 diabetes.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then it went, it was, you know, then it kind of was lost or forgotten when they invented insulin, and then it was decided, well, we're just gonna use insulin to treat people with diabetes, um, which is still what we do today.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: But then it also could there was a resurgence of it, and I don't know what year it was used to treat epilepsy.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: It has very profound effects on brain health.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: So, not just epilepsy, actually, the recent clinical trials show it reverse reverses schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, anxiety, depression.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the effects on the brain are astonishing.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: So this paper came out of this um really a sense of frustration that I have had many, many doctors and other clinicians have that low carbohydrate isn't is well, it's I think it's really the sub the subject of a lot of misunderstanding.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then also it is, you know, actively sort of denigrated by the American Heart Association, the American College of Cardiology, often just based on no data or all these myths about it are repeated everywhere, and they're just not true.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they're just not supported by any data, and there has been no one place that refutes all these myths.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: So we decided, or I guess I decided, this has to exist in the world.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: So we pull together a group of 18, mostly as clinicians who've been practicing the low carb carbohydrate diet with their patients for many, many years.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: And there's some researchers on the article and and like me.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then um we go through all those myths, like, you know, and and so I mean, do you need fiber?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, the one clinical trial on fiber shows that the people who had gastrointestinal problems and they put them on various level fiber diets, those on the zero fiber diet did the best, felt the healthiest, wanted to, you know, felt like that was the best choice for them.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's the clinical trial data.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: We have like the rest of the data, and this is just an important point that you made at the top of the show.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the misinformation on nutrition and health comes out of these very weak epidemiological or observational studies that show association, but you know, very, very rarely show cause and effect.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: So in our paper, we really tried to just stick with the clinical trial data.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: What is the most rigorous data tell us?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: The most rigorous data tell us that a zero fiber diet is going to be the best for IBS.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: I would say that's pretty still preliminary data, but you know, go ahead and try it if you have that condition and see if it works for you.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um we show that the diet is completely safe.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: There aren't any negative side effects.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: There have been studies that have lasted as long as five years, which is considered long-term.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_03: There's no negative effects, you know, renal effects, no negative effects on the kidney.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: The um what else?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: Heart disease is always a big fear.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: And that's based on the fact that when you uh go on a diet that's higher in saturated fat, people tend to see, I mean it tends to be higher in saturated fat.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: People tend to see their LDL cholesterol go up, which people think of as like the worst possible thing.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's the bad cholesterol.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: Turns out just as many people have heart attacks on as with high LDL as they do with with low LDL, it turns out to be a very poor predictor of cardiovascular risk.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: We've actually known that since the late 1970s.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: But since we have a medication, namely statins, to treat LDL, that has sort of been the risk factor that um experts have focused on.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's my somewhat cynical view, but you know, what was most has was found in the largest observational study that was ever done called Framing Him and came out in the late 1970s, was that far more predictive for cardiovascular risk was your HDL cholesterol, which should be high.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: What is the only food that raises HDL cholesterol?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: Saturated fats.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: And the other risk factor that turned out to be very predictive for metabolic health is your triglycerides, fatty acids in your blood, that is driven not by the fat you eat, but by the carbohydrates you eat, which turn into fat.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: So we present data showing that uh the LDL cholesterol is not related to the saturated fat content in people's diet.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a blockbuster news study out showing that people with really high LDL, I mean, some people go on these low-carb diets and their LDL goes way up, like 400 or 500, and they freak out.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: There's an amazing news study showing that who looked at this particular group of people, they're called lean mass hyperresponders.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: They tend to be quite lean and fit.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: It followed them and it took actually like images of their arteries and found that they're they did not advance in in with their arterial plaque at all, and in some cases regressed.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: And there was a control group that they compared those against.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like quite good data.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: So it seems like people are having high DL, LDL cholesterol, but they're not developing heart disease.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: And people in low carbohydrate diets have been shown to um, there's something called the the ACVSD, which is uh atheroscloscler, your cardiac your cardiovascular risk disease score, which is used by the American Heart Association.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: People's that score goes up by 11 years, 11 years longer that you're supposed to live uh uh if you for these people who've been studied on following a low carbohydrate diet.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that result, or more or less, I mean a different number of years, has been replicated.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there's there's there's almost no sign.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and there's contrary evidence from imaging of your arteries that you're not getting heart disease on this diet.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't remember.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: What other myths would you like me to discuss?
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: There's you, I I mean, you know, the flu is transient.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, and then the pyramid, we decided we uh I I I I asked the graphic designer, please make one that looks as much like a traditional food pyramid as possible, right?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: We use the black pyramid, so people recognize it.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's probably the most famous food graphic out there that people know, right?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody knows the pyramid.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: And we just made one based on these low-carb ketogenic clinical trials.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: What are the those trials that show spectacular outcomes, like reverse type 2 diabetes, reverse non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, reverse hypertension, reverse obesity.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, all those clinical trials.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: This is the diet they use.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is mainly the diet they use.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: You can't you can't eat starchy vegetables, and some people don't know that like carrots and onions are starchy, but they are.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: So you can eat them, but just not in copious amounts.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, fruit is high in sugar.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you can't eat those those little things in the tippy point.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: You can eat just a little bit.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: Lots of you can eat lots of vegetables as long as they're non starchy vegetables.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then um and then the base of the pyramid is really proteins and fats.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: So um
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um let me just interject real fast.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, because sometimes we have listeners and sometimes we have viewers on video.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: So for the listeners, I just shared my screen that is this um, you know, revised food guide pyramid that's in the article uh the Dr.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: Dina um co-wrote.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we will put a link to that article in the show description so you can pull it up yourself.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's this pyramid on the bottom.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: It has um whole fat dairy.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously the bottom is where you want to consume most of your foods, just like you know, the government's food guide pyramid.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: So the bottom has whole fat dairy, it has animal proteins, and the fats and oils are listed as olive oil, butter, cream, lard, and tallow.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: Moving up the pyramid, the midsection is um carbohydrates.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And these are low carbohydrate fruits and vegetables, like um leafy greens and other non-starchy vegetables like lemons, limes, olives, avocados.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then moving up to the tippy top of the pyramid, we have starchy vegetables like squashed potatoes and onions, and then nuts and seeds and low sugar fruits like um berries and melon.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so those are to be consumed sparingly.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: On the right hand side, it talks about avoiding foods high in carbohydrates.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, these are like breads, pasta, corn, sugar, beans and legumes, rice, and high sugar fruits.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, sorry, I just wanted to give them the visual for those listening.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to say it's really important to know that this is not the food pyramid for the entire population.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: This is a food pyramid for people with metabolic diseases.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: Now, unfortunately, that is most American adults, like according to the latest data, people who are taking pills for or have symptoms of metabolic disease is at 93% of American adults.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um so, but this pyramid is for people with those conditions that want to reverse them, or people who want to prevent them, I should say.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's safe, it's effective, it's sustainable.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's another myth that we address.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's affordable, that is another myth we address.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I did an article recently where I profiled a woman in a homeless shelter following this diet, um, and a whole population in the South Bronx that is being treated with this diet.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's a I mean, fabulous to see.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: So it is, I mean, this is a diet that anybody can adopt.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a very healthy diet, but it is not.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: We're, I'm not saying none of us are saying this is for the whole American population.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: If you're healthy, you're a healthy 19-year-old, you know, and you you're in fine metabolic health, you can get along eating some a broader range of of foods.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: So but uh so for those other people like the healthy 19-year-old, you're not suggesting, though, that they follow the current US dietary guidelines, right?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: Or I I would not I mean, I think that diet, because of the huge carbohydrate load, provokes disease.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know that if you're a young athlete, you can get away with a lot.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: But if that's your habit and way of eating, uh, you will, I think, as you know, eventually as you get older, develop chronic disease.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I don't, I think, I mean, one way to look at it is people with a healthy metabolism, they can eat a broader range of foods.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean that they're super healthy, but they can, they can.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then as you, especially as you get older and with chronic consumption of excessive carbohydrates, your metabolism degrades or declines, your insulin levels gradually get uh are higher over time, and your blood sugar starts to rise.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so you tip over into metabolic ill health.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: And at that point, you basically have to, you know, you're basically carbohydrate intolerant.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's like developing gluten intolerance.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: You just cannot eat as many carbs anymore, or even none at all.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's no amount of carbohydrate that is necessary for consumption.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: There are three macronutrients: carbohydrate, protein, and fat.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: All foods are made from these except for sugar.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: The only one of those that is non-essential is carbohydrate.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: You must eat protein and fat to survive as a human, but you don't need carbohydrates.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I found that fascinating.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then sorry, Joel, I'm totally monopolizing this conversation.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'll bring it back over to you in just a minute.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I starred this and underlined it and highlighted it because I was like, whoa, I knew it, but I'd never seen somebody reference it.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: You said in here there are no um deficiency symptoms that occur even in the complete absence of dietary carbohydrates.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: The small amount of glucose needed for the functioning of the brain, red blood cells, and the eyes can be created using other substrates via a process called gluconeogenesis.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: The National Academies of Sciences concluded in a 2005 report that the essential amount of carbohydrate is zero.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: Zero.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's like when I talk about how um gluten is not essential.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not an you don't need to have gluten in your diet.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: And people are like, what?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: But this is like, wow, you don't need carbs in your diet.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: This this is a big pushback that I get from people like like on the lion diet, for example, or a carnivore diet.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, no, you have to have these carbs or your brain's gonna starve, you'll get brain fog and whatnot.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you're saying that's not actually true.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean, that is such a basic fact that we've known for so long.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, to me, because I guess I'm cynical and I've been in this world for a long time, it's just a sign of the like the like the huge amount of misinformation that is perhaps purposely put out there to people, uh, paid for by your cereal companies and your other junk food companies, telling you carbohydrates are the best fuel for your body.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to have it, you have to have carbs to fuel your body.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: You do not need carbohydrates.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: And even in our paper, we we cite a bunch of studies on athletes showing, you know, they've there's been a lot of experiments on athletes, even they do not need carbohydrates for performance.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: Those are experiments done on marathon runners, on CrossFit athletes, and all kinds of different um, you know, athletes.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, you don't need carbohydrates to survive.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: You're perfectly fine without them.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's so contrary, Rachel, to what we've been raised to believe.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know as a competitive athlete myself, like in college and whatnot, we would have carbloading nights the day before an event.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like we'd go to the coach's house and we'd have baked potatoes with all these carbs on top of it, you know, not butter, mind you.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: No butter on that potato mate, but just carbs and carbs, like with the broccoli on it and everything, you know, just carb load before every single, every single meat.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: I know, and that's a total myth.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah, there's, I mean, I know two one Iron Man, one Iron Woman who were like top competitors.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of them actually won Iron Man one a year.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, they both got diabetes.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: Why would a super fit person get diabetes?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's because those people are, they've they're constantly carb loading.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: They've got the goop packs on the trip.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: They, you know, all along, they're just like huge amounts of carbs that are going through their body.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: And even though they're super fit, they are getting, they get diabetes, right?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then the woman I knew, she was also getting fat, fat as an iron woman.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, the basic science here is that your body is like a hybrid car.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: So most of us, uh virtually all of us, we're taught our bodies are running on glucose, right?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: That glucose, think of that as your fuel source.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: So glucose comes from carbohydrates.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: When you go, when you go low carb, you're bringing that glucose way down.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: What does your body do?
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we've been told your body will basically, you know, your bonk or you'll just, but and that process, the switchover process to a different fuel can take many weeks and people can feel bad during that time.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm your body will eventually switch over to using the fuel of ketone bodies.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so and that's what we mean when we say you are you're in ketosis or it's a ketogenic diet.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: You're producing these ketone bodies.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: Where do they come from?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: They come from your fat cells.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: Your fat cells, you're basically fueling your body off of your fat cells.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't that sound good?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: You're like just sitting there, you don't even have to exercise.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_03: And if you aren't eating glucose, your body is like, I'm currently like feeding off of my thighs or whatever.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: So um so you're so that's why, and and ketone bodies turn out to be a very healthy fuel for your brain.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's why you're seeing all these improvements in metabolic health because it functions much better from ketone bodies.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: Ketone bodies also do they're what's called signaling molecules, they do other things around the body.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: Ketogenic mice have been found to live the longest in longevity experiments.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so ideally, when you are metabolically well, you can be like a hybrid car.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: You can switch between fueling off of ketones or fueling off of glucose.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: But when you're mainly fueling off of glucose, like you as a college student athlete, you have to constantly be ingesting glucose, you know, otherwise you you hit that wall, right?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like you have to like have to keep feeding the glucose, which you can only get by eating it.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: If you're feeding off your ketone bodies, you know, you can go all day feeding off of your fat stores.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's the other thing why people, this diet is so sustainable, because when you're feeding off of your fat stores, you're not hungry.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_03: And protein and fat are especially satiating.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, carbohydrates, because of the blood sugar spikes, are triggering constant cravings.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_03: Every time you go down from a spike, you're in a craving trough.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_03: So carbohydrates will increase your cravings and therefore cause you to overeat.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: You cannot overeat on protein and fat.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they've done experiments stacking up pork chops in front of people and saying, you know, eat as much as you can.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: And these subjects in the experiment are like, we can eat no more.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_03: Stop.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: You can't overeat on those.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_03: And they they say they're highly satiating, and then you're between meals, you're functioning off of your own fat stores.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a diet without hunger.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the reason that all diets fail out pretty much is hunger.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: But now you have a diet where you're not hungry, you can do that forever.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, if if you're not hungry and it's taken away the cravings, um that's golden.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, for perspective, I used to be a vegetarian.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: I used to cook my own bread like for 25 years.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's the way I ate.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I was just completely full fueled on glucose, and I had, you know, I wasn't hugely fat, but I was kind of overweight and had health problems and weird skin problems and everything.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I was I was complete and I was avoiding fat because we all avoided fat.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: But um, and I was a sugar fanatic and a chocolate.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, what happens is that over time you find you, you know, you you find your cravings go away and then your palate changes.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like your whole sense of food changes.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like now, if I eat dark chocolate, I find it's too sweet.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like I find peanut butter too sweet, which is weird.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't even know there was sugar in peanut butter until like my whole palate and my sense is has shifted.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that does happen over time.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: So even if like now you think I can't give up sugar, I can't give up bread, like your your sense of food changes.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it seems impossible.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I never would have imagined it, but you know, I've seen it in myself and so many other people, so I know it is possible.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Joel, jump in here because I've monopolized her time.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've monopolized time.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_04: I was I was I was just gonna say, well, Dr.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_04: Nina, you look 20, so it must be working.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you look amazing.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's the zoom filter.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've got it on Max.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well we'll have to go ahead.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, go.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was just saying, we'll have to get you out to the farm so we can meet you in person, see the real you.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: I would love to.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Joel, I've been hearing about your farm for so long.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, you know, I'd love to come see it.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_04: Good.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_04: So what's next for you?
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um well, I'm in various ways involved in trying to influence policy, food policy under this new administration, which seems to be open to it.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll just see where that goes.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's kind of a crazy uh landscape out there, but I'm extremely happy that there's a focus now on food and health.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: And um I write a Substack column not that often, but I still do investigative reporting.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I recently did a piece that is pretty amazing on what kind of nutrition studies the NIH funds, which turns out to be all big data, big tech, pharmaceutical, almost nothing on food.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that's because the NIH turns out they're just enormous conflicts of interest that have suffused even the highest levels of the NIH.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: That was shocking to research and find.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I write unsettled science, and that's on Substack.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I am launching a website through the Nutrition Coalition that's gonna be sort of an introduction to low carbohydrate and ketogenic diets, just for people who pretty much know nothing, like success stories.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: How does it work?
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_03: What is the science?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: How can I do it?
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_03: What are the shopping lists look like?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: What are my food guides?
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: So we hope to have that up and running within the month.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what else.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm writing more scientific papers.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_03: I really love writing science.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: I really love doing science and I really love the research.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I like, I like absolutely my happiest just doing research and sitting in my little cave.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so so um, you know, one interesting thing is that the USDA, which people tend to think of as farming, uh the USDA does a lot with food.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, the SNAP program, the school lunch program, the subsidy program, the farm insurance program, um the the food pyramid.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, they're all uh from the USDA.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_04: So we have we have RFK Jr.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_04: who I think I think we can all agree his heart's in the right place.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_04: He he is a um well um he's a man with no guile, I think.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_04: He he he he he just wants the truth.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_04: He he he he and and um that's unusual for a person at that high a level.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_04: Uh uh I I wouldn't even say the same thing about Trump, okay, but but but I I I do think I can say that about RFK Jr.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_04: And so you've got this wonderful uh alternative food pyramid.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um I guess my question is how do you how do you see the relationship between the food agenda through RFK Jr.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_04: and the farm agenda through Dr.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_04: through Brooke Rollins?
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_04: Those two agencies well, I'll just be transparent.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_04: My biggest concern was that the that the farm part was going to sabotage the food part.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um well, that's a real risk.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there they're they are competing interests.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_03: How can you reduce carbohydrates without threatening all kinds of c you know row crop growers?
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: How do you reduce seed oils without threatening the American soybean industry?
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because soybean industry soybean oil is the main one that we uh consume in America.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_04: But here's another which is what enjoys what enjoys crop insurance.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_04: We don't have we don't have insurance for beef cattle farmers, we don't have insurance for dairy farmers.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_04: The only insurance is on on six six crops.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_04: Uh the only one that isn't a carbohydrate is cotton.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_04: Uh everything else is a is a carbohydrate.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_04: So there's as you mentioned at the top, you know, you go back to this, it's a it's a big old aircraft carrier, it's a big old ship to turn around.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, and it's uh I'm I'm I'm thrilled that your your voice is is getting into a circle that's uh that's that's moving, you know, your your hula hoop is moving to the top of the neck, you know, which is exciting.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_04: But but uh but man, it's a it's a big uh it's a big bite, isn't it?
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's a I think it would be I think it would be the most disruptive, probably the most disruptive thing to do of all the various disruptions that are happening, changing the food pyramid, flipping the food pyramid would really probably be right up there.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know if there's the political will to do that.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um I mean, and I'll and let's just point out another issue for um RFK Jr., which is that he's the head of HHS, but food policy, especially this version of the guidelines, is under USDA.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_03: So he doesn't even have jurisdiction really over food, yeah, which is a problem.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he, you know, we can hope his relationship with Brooke Rollins is good, remains good, but that's all it's resting on.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, people uh it's so similar to my world where people ask me, Well, do you speak at Virginia Tech very much?
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_04: That's our low, you know, that's our land grant university here.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_04: And uh I said, no, I speak a lot more at the University of Virginia.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_04: So, so um, so the Virginia Tech um solves a um you know, solves a bug problem for the farmer, and then the environmental sciences folks at UVA decide the collateral damage.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_04: And and so, you know, again, you've got this, it's the same as HHS deals with health, and and it's it's completely separate in a separate silo than the whole food and farm uh uh program over at USDA.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, well uh bl bless you for your voice, your research, and we're so thankful that you're there.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_04: Cena, you want to close us out and and uh um maybe we ought to maybe we ought to ask a question.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um our our our question uh we we do this every podcast for our listeners.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um maybe a maybe a good question would be um have you have you tried the the keto diet and what has been your experience?
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh I've been on a some version of the ketogenic diet for maybe a decade now.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_03: So in my experience, I mean I completely love it.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_03: I love the food I eat.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_03: I love not obsessing about food anymore.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like free from all the dieting that I did for the first decades of my life.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_03: My skin condition went away.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I what am I?
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think I'm like 20 pounds less than I was for most of my young adulthood, but like effortlessly.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like I have no problem maintaining a pretty low weight.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um and yeah, I used to get sinus infections every year, multiple sinus infections.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_03: I don't get infections anymore.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_03: I I mean, I just feel great on it and my energy's good.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like I love waking up in the morning.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_03: I used to be depressed.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's just, it's great.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's great.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I will also say I love being part of the community of people who are working on metabolic health because, like me, they're like they feel great and they've recovered from all kinds of conditions and they're like the happiest, most grateful people.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's such a great community to be to be a part of.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: Joe, one last just a clarifying question.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because in the article, you talk about um there's the definition of low carbohydrate diet, and then there's a ketogenic definition um that is lower in grams of carbs.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you said the paper's gonna use the term low carbohydrate diet to refer to both approaches.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we've been mentioning the word ketogenic diet here, but to reap these benefits, does somebody have to get into ketosis?
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or like, do they have to be measuring and making sure they have these ketone bodies?
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or can they just follow the low carbohydrate diet, which um is is is described here as 25% of calories um from carbohydrate?
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the official definition.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think that most practic practitioners will tell you you see better, quicker effects if the lower you go on carbs.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_03: So low carbohydrate, those are those are the definitions agreed upon in the scientific literature, a little bit a matter of pugging, you know, tugging and pulling.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_03: But in the practitioner community, it's like ketogenic is what works best.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you do not need to count your carb, you need to make yourself aware of what is a carbohydrate and how it affects your body.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_03: And the best way to do that is to get a continuous glucose monitor over the counter.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_03: You can get them, slap it onto your body, wear it for two weeks, you're educated.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's pretty much all you need.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_03: You just need to know, oh my gosh, that plum I thought was fine is making my sugar rocket up.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_03: So you just need to figure out, and people's bodies are different.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_03: So you figure that for yourself.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_03: Do you need to be in ketosis?
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_03: Not necessarily to see a multitude of health benefits, except in mental health.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_03: It seems that those benefits are really seen when people are in ketosis.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's ketosis is a meta is a different metabolic state, and it seems that the brain is more sensitive to that.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for the clarification.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: Nina, this has been so great, so informative.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you got boots on the grounds, you got personal experience too.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just the research, you combine the two.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we love you, love the book.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, if you haven't read it, the big fat surprise, get it.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to love it.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we would love to have you come back on the show at a different time to educate us more because we could talk to you forever.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_02: So feel the same way.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for having me.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, having me on.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's really great to meet you both.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, to all our listeners, thanks for listening with us and um tune into the community question.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_00: We love to hear your responses.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: So answer it on Discord, and we will talk to you next week.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: Bye bye.