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Johnny Depp Verses Amber Heard: Round 3? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Why won't these two go away? Why can't they pack
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Speaker 1: up all their money, all their fame, all their good
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Speaker 1: looks and go away. I'm talking about Amber Heard and
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Speaker 1: Johnny Depp. Amber Heard is at it again. After the
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Speaker 1: infamous trial that goes down in the Fairfax County Courthouse
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Speaker 1: where she and former husband Johnny Depp sue each other
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Speaker 1: round and round and around. Now, amber Heard, believe it
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Speaker 1: or not, it's back in court countersuing her insurer, insisting
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Speaker 1: it does have to cover the eight point three million
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Speaker 1: dollars she owes Captain Jack aka Johnny Depp. I'm Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here
0:56
Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Serious XM. Amber Heard has just
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Speaker 1: filed a countersuit against New York Marine and General Insurance Company,
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Speaker 1: claiming they should cover her losses in the defamation trial.
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Speaker 1: As she will recall, she was ordered to pay millions
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Speaker 1: to her ex husband Johnny Depp. So why are we
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Speaker 1: back in court now? She had taken out a one
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Speaker 1: million dollar policy with the insurer, but the company is
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Speaker 1: now arguing it shouldn't have to pay because the jury
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Speaker 1: found amber committed a willful misconduct act. She argues, she
1:35
Speaker 1: had an unconditional deal with the insurance company, and it
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Speaker 1: should protect her no matter what. I can see a
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Speaker 1: big cat fight about to go down in court. But
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Speaker 1: how in the world did this whole thing start. The
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Speaker 1: legal drama between former Hollywood couple Johnny Depp and Amber
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Speaker 1: heard Entre's a new face today as the two sides
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Speaker 1: face off in a Virginia courtroom. Depp is suing herd
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Speaker 1: for fifty million dollars, claiming she defamed him. The trial
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Speaker 1: is expected to feature a long list of celebrity witnesses,
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Speaker 1: including Elon Musk and James Franco. Apparently there's some sort
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Speaker 1: of high toned in fancy to do up at the
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Speaker 1: fourte The Pirates of the Caribbean star filed the lawsuit
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Speaker 1: against her in twenty nineteen after she published an op
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Speaker 1: ed in The Washington Post writing from the perspective of
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Speaker 1: quote a public figure representing domestic abuse. The op ed
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Speaker 1: does not identify her ex husband by name, but lawyers
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Speaker 1: for Depp say her damaged his reputation, claiming that because
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Speaker 1: of the allegations of abuse, mister Depp lost movie roles
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Speaker 1: and faced public scorns. If there are enough indicators that
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Speaker 1: the person she was making reference to is Johnny Depp.
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Speaker 1: That would be sufficient for his lawsuit to move forward.
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Speaker 1: I thought everyone can tell she was referring to Johnny Depp.
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Speaker 1: I mean, I had no idea who else she may
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Speaker 1: have ever even dated. I mean, did you Okay? So
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Speaker 1: who else could she be talking about? That? That's crazy
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Speaker 1: talk right there, guys, A fifty million dollars showdown going
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Speaker 1: down in a Virginia courtroom with me an all star
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Speaker 1: panel to make sense of it again? Welcome, I mean
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Speaker 1: you see graces his crime story and thanks for being
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Speaker 1: with us at Fox Nation in series six one eleven,
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Speaker 1: here to make sense of it. Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor
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Speaker 1: now entertainment lawyer, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Charles Hiller, psychologists specializing in domestic violence. Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
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Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon and Starving You Hit series on iHeart
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Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joe Scott Morgan. Alexis Teresta joining US Crime
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Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter Alexis right off the bat,
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Speaker 1: what's happening? So Johnny Depp? Hush shoed his ex wife,
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Speaker 1: Amber Hurd, who is an actress. She's not as famous
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Speaker 1: as he is, but she is an actress in her
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Speaker 1: own right. And he is saying that she defamed him
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Speaker 1: when she wrote an op ed that was published in
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Speaker 1: the Washington Post that said I survived sexual violence and
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Speaker 1: you can too. And this was after they had divorced,
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Speaker 1: settled their divorce privately and promised that they weren't going
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Speaker 1: to say anything bad about each other. Wow. And so
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Speaker 1: his claim is that she clearly indicated, Hey, Johnny Depp
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Speaker 1: is who she's talking about in the op ed. Take
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Speaker 1: us an hour cut for our friends at ABC. Seventh Tuesday,
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Speaker 1: a jury in Virginia heard opening statements in after Johnny
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Speaker 1: Depp's fifty million dollar defamation lawsuit against his ex wife,
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Speaker 1: actress Amber heard he wants to turn this case into
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Speaker 1: a six week long public spectacle of the most intimate
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Speaker 1: aspects of their relationship. Attorneys for both parties giving the
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Speaker 1: Fairfax County courtroom a two hour preview of disturbing allegations
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Speaker 1: of violent abuse, skip throwing me at him, pitying she'd
5:03
Speaker 1: telling you. The coward she'd telling me was in a
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Speaker 1: Manna because you wouldn't stay in fighting with her. Herd's
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Speaker 1: attorneys claimed photos will show heard battered at the hands
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Speaker 1: of her ex husband, who they call a monster fueled
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Speaker 1: by drug and alcohol abuse. They show bruises and they
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Speaker 1: show cut lips, They show hair pulled out of her hair.
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Speaker 1: They showed two black eyes when he headbutted her. You're
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Speaker 1: hearing claims being leveled by actress Amber Heard against ex
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Speaker 1: husband Johnny Depp. Are they true? And is this about
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Speaker 1: the actual abuse? Is at a get back over their
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Speaker 1: last trial? All I know is there's fifty million dollars
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Speaker 1: on the line and the careers of both of them
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Speaker 1: at stake. You were just hearing our friends at ABC
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Speaker 1: seven and earlier from ABC to Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor,
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Speaker 1: a trial attorney and now entertainment lawyer. What do you
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Speaker 1: make of what's going down in that Virginia courtroom right now?
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Speaker 1: I think that the Virginia jurors are having a blast.
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Speaker 1: Nobody is in danger of going to prison. This is
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Speaker 1: just about money, or the lack thereof. I think that
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Speaker 1: Johnny Depp's testimony yesterday was measured as if he was
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Speaker 1: on some sort of a sedative because he never raised,
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Speaker 1: never lowered his voice. It was very calm. I think
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Speaker 1: it's going to be fun. I think the jury is
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Speaker 1: going to enjoy this. The rest of the country is
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Speaker 1: going to enjoy this. When it's all said and done,
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Speaker 1: the lawyers make the money. Hold on right there, What
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Speaker 1: do you mean, when it's all said and done, the
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Speaker 1: lawyers make the money. What I mean by that is
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Speaker 1: both sides. Amber's lawyers have heard what's going on, obviously,
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Speaker 1: and Johnny Depp's lawyers know what's going on, and they're
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Speaker 1: going to be charging and have charged a ton of money.
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Speaker 1: And I think that based off of evidence as I
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Speaker 1: have seen it, and we'll see how it unfolds to
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Speaker 1: the jury does. But as I see that, the lawyers
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Speaker 1: are guaranteed of making a ton of attorney speeds. Okay,
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Speaker 1: can you be a little more specific, Daryl co when
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Speaker 1: you're you're the entertainment lawyer. When you say, quote a
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Speaker 1: ton of money, how much do you think these lawyers
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Speaker 1: make per hour each? I think that they are probably
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Speaker 1: making in the range of six hundred to one thousand
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Speaker 1: dollars an hour, and I wouldn't be surprised at the
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Speaker 1: attorney sees on both sides are in the millions, Okay,
7:25
Speaker 1: Hawler and Morgan and Terres Chuck, Jackie, we're quitting, how
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Speaker 1: much can you make as a divorce art you know what,
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Speaker 1: forget it. You can pay me a thousand dollars an hour.
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Speaker 1: I would not be surprised if it's even more than that,
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Speaker 1: Alexis Terrest, Chuck. Most people try to resolve cases out
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Speaker 1: of court for a reason, to avoid incredible monumental court costs,
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Speaker 1: but not these two. It made, they originally solved it,
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Speaker 1: they're settled it. Give me four seven million dollars. And
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Speaker 1: even Nat is under scrutiny because what Amber had said
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Speaker 1: is she didn't want any money at all. She only
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Speaker 1: wanted it to be donated to a charity, perhaps you know,
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Speaker 1: a domestic finlence charity or children's charity. Seven million dollars,
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Speaker 1: that's what they said. On So Johnny said, fine, I
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Speaker 1: will make the donation to a charity. Labor said, well,
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Speaker 1: well wait a minute, give me the money and then
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Speaker 1: I'll make the journation. Because if Johnny makes the seven
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Speaker 1: million dollars donations charity, he gets a tax breaks, and
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Speaker 1: that she said wasn't fair. However, so he gave her
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Speaker 1: the money and the charity through she promised to give
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Speaker 1: it to have said, we have never received the full
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Speaker 1: amount of the money. I think one a children's hospital
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Speaker 1: got maybe a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars donations,
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Speaker 1: but they were expecting millions more. And so even that
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Speaker 1: money has been right. She says she's going to give
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Speaker 1: the money a charity, and it never happened. Correct, very
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Speaker 1: tiny amounts were getting. Let me understand another thing, alexis
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Speaker 1: terres Chick. They reached a settlement of seven mill that
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Speaker 1: death paid her, and part of the settlement included a
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Speaker 1: clause that neither would disparage the other. Isn't that true?
9:07
Speaker 1: That is exactly correct. And then this take us to
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Speaker 1: our cut five, our friend Jessica Deneva. The lawsuit comes
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Speaker 1: after The Washington Post published this op ed piece in
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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen written by Herd, where she calls herself a
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Speaker 1: survivor of domestic and sexual violence. Herd's attorneys arguing it
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Speaker 1: is protected by the First Amendment and never mentions Depp
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Speaker 1: by name, But Depp's attorneys argue the piece by HRD,
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Speaker 1: published two years after their divorce, is a self serving
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Speaker 1: one written in the wake of the Meechu movement just
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Speaker 1: before the release of Aquaman, where Hurd plays the role
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Speaker 1: of Mara by choosing to lie about her husband for
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Speaker 1: her own personal benefit. Amber Heard forever changed mister Depp's
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Speaker 1: life and reputation. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Amber Heard,
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Speaker 1: who just did a star turn in Aquaman, ordered to
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Speaker 1: hand over eight point three million dollars to pirates of
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Speaker 1: the Caribbean star Johnny Depp. It was a contentious defamation
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Speaker 1: trial from beginning to end. But now she has countersued
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Speaker 1: New York Marine in general insurance after they refuse to pay,
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Speaker 1: asking a judge to let them off the hook. Now
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Speaker 1: how does this work? Amber Heard had taken a one
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Speaker 1: million dollar liability policy to protect her from any defamation claims.
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Speaker 1: What is defamation? It can be oral slander or it
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Speaker 1: can be written libel. The insurer is arguing that because
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Speaker 1: the jury found amber Heard committed wilful misconduct and claims
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Speaker 1: about her husband, Johnny Depp, they don't have to pay.
11:12
Speaker 1: Wow were they there during the trial? Because way sure
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Speaker 1: were guys. Take a listen to our cut six. This
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Speaker 1: is Steve Fabian from Inside Edition. The testimony is shocking
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Speaker 1: and as personal as it gets. They engaged in what
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Speaker 1: I saw as mutual abuse. When Johnny Depp and Amber
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Speaker 1: Heard were married, they went to this therapist to save
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Speaker 1: their marriage, and now she's spilling the beans In this
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Speaker 1: videotape testimony played in court at Depp's fifty million dollar
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Speaker 1: defamation suit against ex wife Amber Heard, he claims an
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Speaker 1: op edge she wrote in The Washington Post falsely painted
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Speaker 1: him as an abusive husband. The therapist, doctor Laurel Anderson,
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Speaker 1: testified the couple had a toxic marriage. He had been
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Speaker 1: well controlled, I think for almost twenty thirty years, and
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Speaker 1: then with miss Hurd, he was triggered. She said. Amber
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Speaker 1: told her she was the target of her husband's verbal cruelty.
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Speaker 1: Mister Dabb says to her, no one likes you. You're
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Speaker 1: getting fame from me. I'm falling out of love with you.
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Speaker 1: You're a horror out. Okay, that hurts, but it's certainly
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Speaker 1: not fifty million dollars worth a hurt. I mean I
12:20
Speaker 1: can fix that with a band aid. There's gotta be more.
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Speaker 1: So take a listen to our cut of seven inside edition.
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Speaker 1: Also giving testimony, Amber's former assistant, Kate James, who was
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Speaker 1: fired by Amber. There is apparently no love loss between
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Speaker 1: these two. Multiple times screaming at me over the phone,
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Speaker 1: garagers of abusive text messages. She described Amber as extremely difficult.
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Speaker 1: She leapt up out of her chair, put her face
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Speaker 1: and pox approximately four inches from my face as she
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Speaker 1: was spinning in my face. And it's telling me how
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Speaker 1: dare I asked for the salary I was asking for?
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Speaker 1: According to the assistant, Amber was not fond of Depth's friends.
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Speaker 1: She told me she didn't like hanging out in his
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Speaker 1: house with his friends because it was boring and they're
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Speaker 1: all old men playing guitars and it wasn't interesting to her. Oh, um,
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Speaker 1: let me understand something. I likes a stress, Chuck. Isn't
13:19
Speaker 1: it true that asset has come out in evidence at
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Speaker 1: a previous court hearing that debt would spend thirty thousand
13:26
Speaker 1: dollars a month on wine? Yeah, that is very true. Okay,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Charles Heller joining me, and boy, do I need
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Speaker 1: a shrink? Well, I'm not sure you need a shrink? Dancy?
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Speaker 1: I do I need to understand all this, doctor Heller? Everybody,
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Speaker 1: hold on, I've got I've got I've got a senior
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Speaker 1: praise this one moment, Doctor Heller, clinical forensic psychologist specializing
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Speaker 1: in domestic violence, CHI forensic consultant, Rockland County, New York,
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Speaker 1: forensic Mental Health Unit, forensics psychologist rutgers By a radical
14:00
Speaker 1: and health scientists. I mean I could keep going on?
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Speaker 1: Can I just put it? Planning? Doctor Charles Heller. I
14:06
Speaker 1: would rather try a serial killer and stick in my
14:11
Speaker 1: hand between a fight in a divorce, because those people
14:17
Speaker 1: will shoot you. They will come to your house at
14:20
Speaker 1: night and shoot right through your picture window. Answer, you're right, Yes,
14:25
Speaker 1: you're right. I do work with criminal behavior and murders.
14:31
Speaker 1: I specialize in murders. And I can tell you something
14:36
Speaker 1: these two people didn't know borsch about how to manage
14:41
Speaker 1: a marriage, how to manage a difficult person. Well, my
14:45
Speaker 1: husband seemingly manages me fairly. Well, we haven't a divorced
14:48
Speaker 1: yet in either one I was is dead. But you
14:50
Speaker 1: throw in thirty thousand dollars a month of wine, and
14:53
Speaker 1: I can guarantee if something's going to go wrong. A
14:56
Speaker 1: lot goes wrong after one bottle, from what I can tell,
14:59
Speaker 1: but thousand dollars a month of wine out of their head.
15:06
Speaker 1: But Nancy, that's admitted that he was a junkie, that
15:13
Speaker 1: he was addicted to opioids. You're out of your mind.
15:17
Speaker 1: When you're addicted to opioids. You can't function, you're not
15:21
Speaker 1: in touch with feelings. But I'm sure he was irritable,
15:25
Speaker 1: he went through self imposed withdrawal at times, and I'm
15:30
Speaker 1: sure he was nasty at times. We don't have corroboration
15:35
Speaker 1: of physical abuse, really, but what we do have is
15:40
Speaker 1: corroboration of emotional abuse from both sides. And you can't
15:45
Speaker 1: see the emotional scars. They're they're hidden, but they're there.
15:51
Speaker 1: And this couple is continuing to attack each other and
15:55
Speaker 1: to just destroy each other's lives. You know, I thought,
15:58
Speaker 1: for a moment, the hell I should have done better.
16:02
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen one of those movie trailers where
16:04
Speaker 1: you're looking, for instance, at a grave, and all of
16:07
Speaker 1: a sudden, a hand comes up out of the ground.
16:10
Speaker 1: You thought it was dead, but it's not. At the
16:14
Speaker 1: end of that seven million dollars proceeding where they both
16:17
Speaker 1: settled and went their separate ways, I had a funny
16:21
Speaker 1: feeling it wasn't really dead yet, And of course it's not.
16:26
Speaker 1: I mean, this is so destructive, and there's no doubt
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Speaker 1: in my mind that Amber Heard was referring to Johnny
16:34
Speaker 1: Depp and that op ed she was, Yeah, she probably was,
16:40
Speaker 1: but there's still there's a lot of pain on both sides,
16:43
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of love on both sides.
16:47
Speaker 1: They didn't want this marriage to turn out like this.
16:50
Speaker 1: They sort out a therapist, a marital therapist, to try
16:56
Speaker 1: to work on things, and that's not something that typical
16:59
Speaker 1: Hollywood people do. I don't know how you can ever
17:01
Speaker 1: make a comeback from this, Doctor Heller, Alexis, trust Chuck.
17:05
Speaker 1: Isn't it true that it came out in evidence that
17:09
Speaker 1: Amber Heard got up on Johnny Depps of bed And
17:12
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was some extravagant you know, one of
17:14
Speaker 1: those fancy beds like Tom Cruise orders. It costs like
17:17
Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars and it sucks, stuffed with horse hair
17:22
Speaker 1: and lavender and whatever is in there, and took a
17:27
Speaker 1: big crap in the middle of the bed. So that
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Speaker 1: is what Johnny. So there was poop in the bed.
17:32
Speaker 1: There absolutely was poop in the bed. Wait wait, wait,
17:35
Speaker 1: whoa Alexis? You have given birth? I know I was there.
17:41
Speaker 1: Remember when you're lunking patent collapsed that whold thing. All right,
17:45
Speaker 1: you have changed diepies, right, and I've never had a
17:50
Speaker 1: problem with changing diapers, never really bothered me. That's poop.
17:55
Speaker 1: When a grown woman gets up in her husband's their bed,
17:59
Speaker 1: the marital bed, and takes a dump, that's not a
18:04
Speaker 1: poopie a Poopi's well, a little baby does it doesn'teem
18:08
Speaker 1: a smell. That was a dump. She took a dump
18:12
Speaker 1: on his bed. There's really well, there are other ways
18:15
Speaker 1: to put it, but any none any better than that.
18:19
Speaker 1: I mean, you hear hell are talking about they didn't
18:22
Speaker 1: want the marriage to in this way. I can tell
18:25
Speaker 1: you this. If David Lynch took a dump in the bed,
18:27
Speaker 1: it's over. It was a dump. Dumb. But she says
18:32
Speaker 1: that a dog did it, and Johnny was like, no,
18:34
Speaker 1: either you or you know, your friend or sister would
18:37
Speaker 1: get it. Absolutely was not. I thought you'd get somebody
18:40
Speaker 1: to do it instead of doing it yourself. I mean, okay,
18:43
Speaker 1: well someone else, your friend, Gerald Cohen. Are we really
18:47
Speaker 1: talking about who took a dump in Johnny Dipp's bed?
18:50
Speaker 1: Is that what it's down to? Yes, it is. Because
18:53
Speaker 1: when you're getting a divorce, you argue over who's going
18:56
Speaker 1: to get the crop pot. I mean, you've handled divorce
18:59
Speaker 1: case is too people argue about anything. I'm not going
19:04
Speaker 1: to let her have it. It's over. You were horrible.
19:07
Speaker 1: I was terrible. No, you were terrible. You're in the
19:10
Speaker 1: right dancy. It doesn't matter the amount of money, it
19:13
Speaker 1: doesn't matter the value. It's an emotional thing that both
19:17
Speaker 1: male and female seem to get caught up in. And
19:20
Speaker 1: there's no reason for it logically, but there's every reason
19:24
Speaker 1: for it emotionally. So it was an emotional tup. Okay,
19:27
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm taking that friend and then he lammed it.
19:30
Speaker 1: She said it was a prank. She said, oh, it's
19:32
Speaker 1: just a prank. We were just playing a prank. I
19:34
Speaker 1: don't know. So she admitted she as you say, poopied
19:38
Speaker 1: and Johnny Depp's bed. She said that was a prank.
19:41
Speaker 1: She said it was a harmless prank from what she
19:44
Speaker 1: says from her and her friend. But I would yeah, okay,
19:48
Speaker 1: But here we are, and this is what Depp is
19:51
Speaker 1: saying on the stand in the last hours. Take a
19:55
Speaker 1: listen to our cut ten. This is depth on the stand.
20:00
Speaker 1: One day You're Cinderella, so to speak, and then in
20:04
Speaker 1: zero point six seconds or Quasimodo and I I I
20:15
Speaker 1: didn't deserve that, nor did my children, nor did the
20:21
Speaker 1: people who have believed in me for all these years.
20:25
Speaker 1: I didn't want anybody, any of those people, to believe
20:30
Speaker 1: that I had done them wrong or lied to them,
20:35
Speaker 1: or that I was a fraud. I am. I pride
20:40
Speaker 1: myself on honesty. I pride my cell phone truth. Truth
20:45
Speaker 1: is the only thing I'm interested in court and documents
20:49
Speaker 1: that we got our mits on show. Amber Heard is
20:52
Speaker 1: arguing that she struck a quote unconditional deal that protects
20:58
Speaker 1: her no matter what the countersuit is coming after Depp
21:04
Speaker 1: files an appeal over the court's verdict that he pays
21:09
Speaker 1: two million dollars to HERD. Yes, it's not just Amber
21:14
Speaker 1: Heard arguing about money, it's Johnny Depp too. Remember the
21:19
Speaker 1: jury awarded money to him from her the bulk of
21:25
Speaker 1: the award. They also ordered a little bit of money
21:29
Speaker 1: from him to her. That's what he is appealing. He
21:33
Speaker 1: has actually filed an appeal over the two million dollars
21:37
Speaker 1: he's supposed to pay HERD. So they're both at it again.
21:40
Speaker 1: Are we going to all get dragged back to court
21:43
Speaker 1: straight out to Caitlyn Becker joining as senior reporter dailymail
21:47
Speaker 1: dot Com. Caitlin, give me a recap of the jury's decision.
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Speaker 1: A jury of seven Well Nancy, they overwhelmingly cited for
21:57
Speaker 1: Johnny Depp. They found that amber Heard twenty eighteen op
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Speaker 1: ed in The Washington Post defamed him, that she knowingly
22:06
Speaker 1: wrote false information, that she did so with malice. I
22:09
Speaker 1: was pretty shocked. And at the end of all of that,
22:12
Speaker 1: they awarded a massive amount of damages, ten million dollars
22:17
Speaker 1: in compessive compensatory damages and five million impunitive damages. Now
22:22
Speaker 1: that did change because there is that three hundred and
22:24
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars cap on punitive damages in the state
22:29
Speaker 1: of Virginia, so that number was slashed tight a bit.
22:31
Speaker 1: And then they turned to Amber Heard's counterclaim against Johnny Depp,
22:36
Speaker 1: finding in her favor on one of those counts, finding
22:39
Speaker 1: that he defamed her through statements made by his lawyer,
22:42
Speaker 1: and then ordering him to pay her two million dollars. So,
22:45
Speaker 1: when all is said undone, when all of that math
22:48
Speaker 1: is done, Johnny Depp essentially walked away with about eight
22:50
Speaker 1: point three five million dollars in damages Okay. So the
22:54
Speaker 1: math is the jury awarded him ten million in compensation
22:59
Speaker 1: for all damage to his career, five million dollars in
23:03
Speaker 1: punishment punitive damages against Amber Heard and for depth. Then
23:10
Speaker 1: that was reduced. That fifteen mill was reduced because in
23:13
Speaker 1: Virginia for punitive damages you can only get three hundred
23:17
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars max. So the five mill was reduced
23:22
Speaker 1: to three hundred fifty thousand. That leaves us at ten million,
23:25
Speaker 1: three hundred fifty thousand dollars. But then the jury, in
23:30
Speaker 1: the number two claim by heard, awarded Heard two million.
23:35
Speaker 1: So you now take the ten million, three hundred fifty
23:37
Speaker 1: thousand mine us the two million he Owes heard, and
23:42
Speaker 1: you end up with eight million, three hundred and fifty
23:44
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Questioned Caitlin Becker, why were you shocked? I
23:50
Speaker 1: think this whole case almost felt like the legal embodiment
23:53
Speaker 1: of her original op ed. She spoke out against sexual
23:57
Speaker 1: violence and faced the cultures. Brass I watched every day
24:02
Speaker 1: of this trial. I watched the testimony, and from my perspective,
24:06
Speaker 1: I feel like she maybe proved that Johnny Depp was abusive.
24:11
Speaker 1: I also felt like Johnny Depp proved that she was abusive.
24:15
Speaker 1: They both seemed like abusive partner. So are we really
24:18
Speaker 1: surprised at the end of it that Johnny Depp's celebrity
24:23
Speaker 1: had kind of one out through all of this. I
24:26
Speaker 1: think the jury turned on Amber heard when she got
24:29
Speaker 1: up on that stand and felt like she was acting,
24:32
Speaker 1: and they were endeared to Johnny Depp when he got
24:34
Speaker 1: up on that stand and felt like they were front
24:37
Speaker 1: and center with a celebrity who's been in their homes
24:40
Speaker 1: for decades. To you, Daryl Cohen, former or felony prosecutor,
24:44
Speaker 1: now veteran civil attorney joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction,
24:48
Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, what do you make of it? Well? I
24:51
Speaker 1: think that fair maiden just was not likable in Nancy.
24:55
Speaker 1: We've talked about this forever. You have to have likability
24:59
Speaker 1: on the stand, and the public opinion, the court of
25:03
Speaker 1: public opinion didn't like Amber, didn't like the way she was.
25:07
Speaker 1: I thought, finally she changed her persona after she changed
25:11
Speaker 1: her pr people, but it wasn't enough. And I don't
25:15
Speaker 1: think it was about what she wrote and what Johnny
25:18
Speaker 1: Depp's lawyer did. I think it was more about the
25:21
Speaker 1: way that the public just didn't like her. So maybe
25:25
Speaker 1: Aquaman was her her last stand. I don't know, but
25:30
Speaker 1: I do think it'll be fine. You know what, you
25:33
Speaker 1: know what you're not here to say. I don't know.
25:37
Speaker 1: You're the civil lawyer expert, and I can tell you
25:40
Speaker 1: it's not a popularity contest. Although when a jury doesn't
25:45
Speaker 1: like a witness, they're much less prone to believe the witness.
25:49
Speaker 1: I believe the jury smelled her lies on other issues,
25:56
Speaker 1: like the charity donation that she never made that she
25:59
Speaker 1: swore under oath she had made, like the claiming that
26:04
Speaker 1: no one in her camp tipped off TMZ to show
26:08
Speaker 1: up at the courthouse when she got a tro tipporary
26:11
Speaker 1: restraining order and was supposed to turn a certain way
26:14
Speaker 1: so they could get a photograph of the bruise on
26:17
Speaker 1: her face. That didn't just happen. That was orchestrated. The
26:23
Speaker 1: claim that Depp pushed Kate Moss down the stairs, and
26:27
Speaker 1: then Kate Moss appears as a rebuttal witness, which is
26:31
Speaker 1: very powerful when you get the last word. Depp brought
26:34
Speaker 1: her on as a rebuttal witness to say that didn't happen.
26:37
Speaker 1: I mean there's a huge list of lies that she
26:42
Speaker 1: wasn't setting him up. Then why all the videos and
26:45
Speaker 1: the photographs that it wasn't about the money at all?
26:50
Speaker 1: When testimony came in that she demanded use of his
26:54
Speaker 1: three penthouse apartments and arranger over to boot. Now, what
26:59
Speaker 1: does this have to do with him hitting her? Nothing.
27:04
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean he didn't hit her. But what it
27:08
Speaker 1: did do, Daryl Cohen, is her credibility as opposed to debt.
27:13
Speaker 1: They get something goes, Yeah, I do drugs. I'm an alcoholic.
27:18
Speaker 1: I slam cabinets and I kick things and I throw things,
27:21
Speaker 1: but I don't hit anybody. He owned up to it
27:24
Speaker 1: all except the beating. So that is why I believe
27:29
Speaker 1: the jury rejected her claims, not because they didn't think
27:33
Speaker 1: Depp ever hit her, but because they thought she was
27:36
Speaker 1: lying about other things jury nullification, and that's partially what
27:42
Speaker 1: they did. They liked her not at all. They liked
27:46
Speaker 1: him a lot, and they did take, in my view,
27:49
Speaker 1: their thoughts about her lying. They did take the fact
27:54
Speaker 1: and the America is really cool. If you do something
27:57
Speaker 1: wrong as it celebrity and you admit it after a wow,
28:00
Speaker 1: it's okay. But if you don't admit it. It's never okay,
28:04
Speaker 1: and so our fair maiden is just not a fair maiden.
28:09
Speaker 1: She lost a lot more money than she won. If
28:13
Speaker 1: either of them ever collect, the lawyers will the lawyers
28:17
Speaker 1: have Yeah, yeah, you're right, the lawyers will collect time
28:35
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. This legal battle also concerns Traveler's
28:42
Speaker 1: commercial insurance company. Travelers initially sued New York Marine to
28:48
Speaker 1: get reimbursed for half of what it's spent defending and reharn.
28:53
Speaker 1: Remember those lawyers sitting with her, many of them were
28:57
Speaker 1: from the insurance company. So Travelers sues New York Marine
29:03
Speaker 1: to get half of the money it Travelers spent defending
29:08
Speaker 1: Amber heard Herd's homeowners policy that she had with Travelers
29:14
Speaker 1: covered liabel up to five hundred thousand dollars. New York
29:19
Speaker 1: Marine liability was for one million dollars. So basically the
29:27
Speaker 1: gist of that lawsuit was Travelers believing Herd had the
29:31
Speaker 1: right to pick her own lawyers. New York Marine disagreed.
29:37
Speaker 1: So far a judge has agreed with New York Marine
29:41
Speaker 1: that so far, a judge has agreed with New York
29:44
Speaker 1: Marine's desire to use local, cheaper lawyers, and you see
29:49
Speaker 1: that very often when the case goes to litigation you
29:52
Speaker 1: have insurance, the insurance company will find for you a
29:56
Speaker 1: local lawyer that has an expertise and the field in
30:00
Speaker 1: which you're seeing. So that is not unusual at all.
30:04
Speaker 1: But wouldn't you know that two millionaires are going back
30:07
Speaker 1: to court arguing over money? Take us an our cut
30:10
Speaker 1: sixty five referend Ron Alan at NBC cheering, yelling and
30:14
Speaker 1: screaming support for Johnny Depp, as has been the case
30:16
Speaker 1: for the last number of weeks. He had been winning
30:19
Speaker 1: this in the court of public opinion. It seemed obvious
30:21
Speaker 1: online social media and as the verdicts were read, cheering
30:26
Speaker 1: outside the courthouse from a small group of people. Here
30:29
Speaker 1: today we don't have the huge crowd that we've had
30:32
Speaker 1: for the past number of weeks because Depth is not here.
30:34
Speaker 1: He is in England. He's playing a number of concerts
30:37
Speaker 1: and he has just released a statement which I can
30:40
Speaker 1: read to you in part. It says, six years ago,
30:43
Speaker 1: in my life, the life of my children, the lives
30:45
Speaker 1: are those closest to me, and also the lives of
30:47
Speaker 1: the people who for many many years have supported and
30:50
Speaker 1: believed in me, were forever changed, all the blink of
30:53
Speaker 1: an eye. Then he goes on to say, and six
30:55
Speaker 1: years later, the jury gave me my life back. I
30:58
Speaker 1: am truly humbled. That is what Depth has always said.
31:02
Speaker 1: This is about. It wasn't about money, it wasn't about venons.
31:05
Speaker 1: It was about trying to get his good name and
31:07
Speaker 1: reputation back because he vehemently denied the allegations that he
31:12
Speaker 1: was an abuser, that he had committed violent acts against
31:16
Speaker 1: Amber Heard. Okay, while he is happy, his camp is happy,
31:21
Speaker 1: and he says, the jury has given me my life back.
31:25
Speaker 1: Just the opposite on the other side of the courtroom.
31:28
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut sixty six, our friends
31:31
Speaker 1: at MBC. This is coming from Amber Heard. The disappointment
31:34
Speaker 1: I feel today is beyond words. I'm heartbroken that the
31:37
Speaker 1: mountain of evidence still was not enough to stand up
31:40
Speaker 1: to the disproportionate power influence in sway of my ex husband.
31:44
Speaker 1: Heard goes on to write, I'm even more disappointed with
31:47
Speaker 1: what this verdict means for other women. It's a setback.
31:50
Speaker 1: It sets back the clock to a time when a
31:52
Speaker 1: woman who spoke up and spoke out could be publicly
31:54
Speaker 1: shamed and humiliated it sets back the idea that violence
31:58
Speaker 1: against women is to be taken seriously. She goes on
32:01
Speaker 1: to say, finally, I'm sad I lost this case, but
32:03
Speaker 1: I'm even sadder still that I seem to have lost
32:06
Speaker 1: a right I thought I had as an American to
32:08
Speaker 1: speak freely and openly. Now the statement came to us
32:11
Speaker 1: just minutes after the verdict came out, so it seemed
32:14
Speaker 1: to be a prepared statement that amber Heard sent out
32:17
Speaker 1: to the press. To doctor Charles Heller joining us clinical
32:20
Speaker 1: forensic psychologists specializing in domestic violence. He's the chief forensic
32:24
Speaker 1: consultant Rockland Counting. Doctor Heller, thank you for being with us. There.
32:29
Speaker 1: You see amber Heard painting the court battle very much
32:33
Speaker 1: in a David and Goliath style, where she would be
32:39
Speaker 1: David in her mind and Goliath. Now as far as
32:43
Speaker 1: their bank ability, their box office numbers, I agree with her,
32:48
Speaker 1: but I do not believe that it was necessarily Johnny
32:51
Speaker 1: Dipp's popularity that caused this verdict. I think the jury
32:57
Speaker 1: caught her in lies and they just lost all respect
33:02
Speaker 1: or all likability for her. For instance. And I'm not
33:06
Speaker 1: saying you never hit her. I'm saying she lied about
33:09
Speaker 1: other matters, and the jury did not believe her, which
33:13
Speaker 1: they are allowed to do under the law. I think
33:16
Speaker 1: they hit each other. But for instance, all this business
33:20
Speaker 1: about donating the seven million dollars divorce settlement to charity
33:25
Speaker 1: instead of insisting until she was blue in the face
33:30
Speaker 1: that she did donate it, And then the ACLU comes
33:33
Speaker 1: up and says, yeah, well no you didn't. Why didn't
33:36
Speaker 1: she just say, you know what, I had the best intentions.
33:40
Speaker 1: I donated two or three million dollars, but then I
33:44
Speaker 1: ran out of money. Then I caught this lawsuit. I
33:47
Speaker 1: had the best intentions, but no I never finished giving
33:51
Speaker 1: the money. I gave all I thought that I could.
33:54
Speaker 1: So there, Nancy, what the world has gotten a great
33:59
Speaker 1: lesson and how to assess false allegations. This is what
34:04
Speaker 1: I do all the time. And there's a certain certain
34:09
Speaker 1: procedure a forensic psychologist has to follow in terms of
34:13
Speaker 1: assessment of an allegation. You have to look at patterns.
34:19
Speaker 1: You have to look at any past dishonesty about anything,
34:24
Speaker 1: especially the situation. Dear Lord in heaven man, everybody's lied.
34:30
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean you can't mean her in many lies.
34:35
Speaker 1: And he was actually honest about a lot of his
34:39
Speaker 1: deficits and acting out in terms of alcohol and drugs.
34:43
Speaker 1: That's a really nice way to put it. His deficits. Man,
34:47
Speaker 1: he was a raging guy when he would be high
34:52
Speaker 1: on drugs or alcohol. But again, you're talking about lies
34:58
Speaker 1: about other things affect credibility. I think that's what you're saying,
35:02
Speaker 1: doctor Heller. That's what I'm saying. You know, it's it's
35:05
Speaker 1: not so much public opinion that changed this verdict toward Depth.
35:11
Speaker 1: It's it's not that the jury liked him more than her.
35:14
Speaker 1: It's simply the facts. The evidence didn't match up with
35:19
Speaker 1: what she was saying. Johnny right now is a special guest.
35:22
Speaker 1: Julie Owens victim advocate, domestic violence expert consultant and you
35:27
Speaker 1: can find her a domestic violence expert dot org. Julie
35:33
Speaker 1: Owens Way in the money, Nancy. It's a devastating decision
35:40
Speaker 1: and will resilvery for years, I'm sure with a chilling
35:45
Speaker 1: effect and other domestic planet ystems. There is no doubt
35:49
Speaker 1: in my name after more than thirty years of working
35:54
Speaker 1: in similar situations that were in the head. Okay, Johnny
35:59
Speaker 1: Depth is a tad abuser, Nancy, and he has every
36:03
Speaker 1: single characteristic of the domestic France offender, whereas she does not.
36:08
Speaker 1: He's a great actor who's slaying the role of a lifetime.
36:11
Speaker 1: This is a man who said we're married. Now I
36:14
Speaker 1: can pinch her in the face and no one can
36:16
Speaker 1: do anything about it. This is a man who fantasized
36:19
Speaker 1: about killing her, who told her he's going to win
36:23
Speaker 1: a reputation, who said she's begging for total humiliation. She's
36:28
Speaker 1: gonna get it. I have no mercy, no fear, unhappy,
36:32
Speaker 1: she wants to fight this out. No victims says those things.
36:36
Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking through everything you're saying. There's no
36:40
Speaker 1: question that we have to take witnesses and victims as
36:46
Speaker 1: we find them. You can't change a victim's personality. I
36:52
Speaker 1: will never forget Julio's in one of the first case
36:55
Speaker 1: I tried, not the first, but one of the first.
36:58
Speaker 1: I got a case that none of the and you
37:01
Speaker 1: know how it goes, Daryl Cohen. When you first go
37:04
Speaker 1: to the district attorney's office, you're what they call a mule, okay,
37:09
Speaker 1: and you are sent to all the courtrooms and you
37:13
Speaker 1: basically or handed the cases that the permanently assigned the
37:18
Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyers don't want to try princess. My first
37:21
Speaker 1: trial was a shoplifting from a kmart where the guy
37:26
Speaker 1: didn't take anything, and you'll remember Harvey Moskowitz, our friend,
37:30
Speaker 1: great trial lawyer, gave me the case to try and
37:32
Speaker 1: then immediately went out of town with Arla, his wife.
37:36
Speaker 1: I was thrilled to try a case, but then I
37:37
Speaker 1: realized the guy got a CD player. He cut it
37:41
Speaker 1: off the display, stuck it down his pants, put it
37:44
Speaker 1: in a rug, got all the way to the front
37:47
Speaker 1: door of the kmart, and then left it in the rug. Well.
37:50
Speaker 1: They the deputy dog security guys at kmart threw him
37:54
Speaker 1: on the asphalt and yanked him back in and arrested
37:57
Speaker 1: him for shoplifting. He didn't have anything on he left
38:00
Speaker 1: it in the store. I had to try the case
38:03
Speaker 1: and I got a conviction Darryl on attempted shoplifting. So
38:09
Speaker 1: in the next case I had Darryll, I had a
38:13
Speaker 1: woman that was arm robbed with a knife. What I
38:18
Speaker 1: really didn't want the jury to find out was she
38:20
Speaker 1: was a stripper and she was coming out of a
38:23
Speaker 1: strip club at like four am, dressed as a cheerleader
38:26
Speaker 1: and a guy pulled a knife and took all her tips. Well,
38:29
Speaker 1: I thought they wouldn't like her if they found out
38:31
Speaker 1: she was a stripper. So I got her up there
38:34
Speaker 1: and I said, you know, how long have you lived
38:37
Speaker 1: in Atlanta? You know where did you go to school?
38:39
Speaker 1: Where do you go to church? Blah blah blah. I
38:41
Speaker 1: looked over at the jury and they were like, mmmmm,
38:45
Speaker 1: there's no way to change a witness or a victim.
38:49
Speaker 1: Darryl Cohen, you gotta go with what you got. And
38:52
Speaker 1: what Julie is alluding to is no victim, no witness
38:57
Speaker 1: is perfect. So what you're never gonna find for them
39:00
Speaker 1: because they're not perfect? Sare are you there? I am
39:03
Speaker 1: here and I'm listening to everything, and I think, very honestly,
39:07
Speaker 1: the problem was, again, you talk about her lives. I agree,
39:11
Speaker 1: I talk about her likability. Hopefully other people agree. Unfortunately,
39:16
Speaker 1: her likability didn't exist if she had a lack of it.
39:21
Speaker 1: And when she had her hair a certain way in
39:23
Speaker 1: the courtroom, when she had her makeup a certain way
39:27
Speaker 1: in the courtroom in the beginning, it wasn't working. And Nancy,
39:32
Speaker 1: you only have one chair. I hope you're not boiling
39:37
Speaker 1: this down to her hair and makeup because you're boiling
39:41
Speaker 1: the courtroom. That is not what happened. This is what happened.
39:46
Speaker 1: What about Kate Moss. Listen, we were leaving the room
39:50
Speaker 1: and Johnny left the room before I did, and they
39:53
Speaker 1: had been at rainstore. And as I left the room,
39:58
Speaker 1: I slid down the stair and I hurt my back.
40:03
Speaker 1: How did you and I apologize, Miss Moss? Please continue?
40:10
Speaker 1: And I screamed because I was in because I didn't
40:14
Speaker 1: know what had happened to me, and I was in pain.
40:16
Speaker 1: And he came running back to help me and carried
40:22
Speaker 1: me to my room and got me medical attention. Did
40:28
Speaker 1: mister Depp push you in any way down the stairs. No?
40:34
Speaker 1: During the course of your relationship, did he ever push
40:37
Speaker 1: you down any stairs? No, he never pushed me, kicked me,
40:43
Speaker 1: or throw me down any stairs. The Johnny Depp team
40:48
Speaker 1: could not bring in Kate Moss unless and until Amber
40:52
Speaker 1: heard side brought her up at that moment like a vampire.
40:56
Speaker 1: Then once you're invited, you can bring in the evidence.
40:59
Speaker 1: And they did it, and it was toward the end
41:01
Speaker 1: of the trials. One of the last things echoing and
41:04
Speaker 1: the juries the jurard's ears and they hear. Yet another
41:09
Speaker 1: claim made by amber Heard was false. I think that
41:14
Speaker 1: had a great deal to do with her undoing lies
41:20
Speaker 1: about Kate Moss being beaten by Johnny Depp. That's not true.
41:25
Speaker 1: The charity, the poop on the bed, I mean, it
41:29
Speaker 1: just goes on and on and on. That doesn't mean
41:32
Speaker 1: she was never struck, but it doesn't mean she lied.
41:36
Speaker 1: Since the trial, Amber Heard has been spotted all around
41:40
Speaker 1: the world. First of all, she was spotted at a
41:44
Speaker 1: Spanish getaway. Now, despite facing a massive multimillion dollar legal
41:50
Speaker 1: bills she says she cannot afford, she appeared carefree with
41:54
Speaker 1: her daughter on a Spain getaway, specifically Homa Day, Majorca.
42:01
Speaker 1: It's an incredibly beautiful resort city on the Mediterranean, with
42:07
Speaker 1: her at her little girl. She was holding her daughter's
42:10
Speaker 1: hand and took her for a ride on a swing
42:13
Speaker 1: at a local park. That's where the paparazzi found her.
42:16
Speaker 1: But she hasn't just been in Spain post trial. She
42:21
Speaker 1: was also spotted in London in a wine store. She
42:25
Speaker 1: had her daughter with her again. There, she says she
42:29
Speaker 1: is vowing to focus on motherhood full time. So while
42:36
Speaker 1: Amberhard is jet setting from the US to Spain, from
42:39
Speaker 1: Spain to London. She's got the lawyers busy at work,
42:44
Speaker 1: as does Johnny Depp, both of them not going down
42:49
Speaker 1: without a fight. Nancy Grace Crime Story is signing off
42:55
Speaker 1: Goodbye friend,