Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Brutally strangled, buried on lonely beach: Was Shannan Gilbert murdered by monster Long Island Serial Killer?

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Brutally strangled, buried on lonely beach: Was Shannan Gilbert murdered by monster Long Island Serial Killer? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I Want justice.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace available now only on Fox Nation.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Shannon Gilbert dead, But is her murder part of a
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  Speaker 1: much more complex series of murders? Of of course, Young
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  Speaker 1: Women Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What happened to a
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  Speaker 1: twenty four year old young girl? You know my daughter
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  Speaker 1: is about to turn thirteen. This is only eleven years
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  Speaker 1: older than that. First of all, I want you to
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  Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Michelle Segona at Crime
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  Speaker 1: Watch Daily, not a day goodbye that Mary Gilbert doesn't
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  Speaker 1: long for an answer to the death of her twenty
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  Speaker 1: three year old daughter, Shannon. If you pick up the
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  Speaker 1: phone and call the investigators or the detective that's been
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  Speaker 1: assigned to you so you get called back, No, they
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  Speaker 1: won't talk to me. Shannon had traveled from New Jersey
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  Speaker 1: to Oak Beach, Long Island, New or Gilgo Beach for
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  Speaker 1: a day. Later that night, she was seen running through
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  Speaker 1: the neighborhood in a blind panic. Gilbert family attorney John
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  Speaker 1: Ray has lounged over seven hundred hours on the case,
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  Speaker 1: tracing her steps. That night, she runs out of his home.
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  Speaker 1: She calls nine one one. She runs the neighborhood of
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  Speaker 1: knocking on doors, and whenever someone comes to the door
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  Speaker 1: who attempts to call the police but not take her in,
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  Speaker 1: she runs. And that's the last anyone's heard of her.
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  Speaker 1: Talk to me about what happens. Talk to me about
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  Speaker 1: a phone call your daughter made nine on one call
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  Speaker 1: for help, lasting twenty three man twenty dree man. Can
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  Speaker 1: you imagine the pain that Shannon's mother endures her daughter
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  Speaker 1: on the phone with a cell phone twenty three minutes,
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  Speaker 1: running from door to door, screaming in fear, screaming that
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  Speaker 1: she's afraid she's going to die, And she did. Just
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  Speaker 1: twenty four years old. Shannon Gilbert loses her life. Joining
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  Speaker 1: me an all star panel to break it down and
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  Speaker 1: put it back together. Doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical Alexander
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  Speaker 1: joining me out of South Carolina, author of Homicide Investigation,
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  Speaker 1: Field Guide, Psychoanalyst to the Stars. Doctor Bethany Marshall joining
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  Speaker 1: me from Beverly Hills. You can find her at doctor
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  Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com. James sheld At twenty seven years
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  Speaker 1: Metro major case and SWAT now lawyer Shia Lapointe, Genetic genealogist,
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  Speaker 1: the so called gene hunter. Also with me special guest,
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  Speaker 1: the attorney for the family of the victim, Shannon Gilbert.
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  Speaker 1: John Ray is with us, but first straight out to
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  Speaker 1: our Crime online dot Com investigative reporters Dave mc investigative
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  Speaker 1: reporter and Ellen Kilauren. You know, when you look at
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  Speaker 1: it like a puzzle, Eka, Ellen Kilorm, Shannon Gilbert fits
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  Speaker 1: in to a much bigger picture. But I want to
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  Speaker 1: start with her. Where was her body found? Nancy Shannon
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  Speaker 1: Gilbert's body was found not long not far from where
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  Speaker 1: she disappeared. That it was a year and a half
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  Speaker 1: before she was found dead. She had disappeared in May
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  Speaker 1: of two thousand and ten in Oak Beach and was
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  Speaker 1: never seen again. Do we know? Do we know? The
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  Speaker 1: cod cause of death aka the official cause of death
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  Speaker 1: is inconclusive. Authorities had been saying for years that they
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  Speaker 1: believe what probably had and which she ran into the
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  Speaker 1: marsh where she was found, became this oriented, became exhausted
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  Speaker 1: and drowned in the sand and water in the marsh. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: I've got a really hard time believing that because you know,
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  Speaker 1: shall not help me out here, k I'm not doubting
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  Speaker 1: your expert crack reporting. But shall not. You got a
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  Speaker 1: woman twenty four years old on the phone screaming I'm
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  Speaker 1: gonna die. Help me, help me, help me, help me,
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  Speaker 1: beating on people's doors. If they don't take her in,
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  Speaker 1: she runs. And you want to tell me she went
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  Speaker 1: out into the marsh which is not over her head,
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  Speaker 1: and then just says hey with it, and sits down
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  Speaker 1: and dies. That is not what happened. Shall not. No,
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  Speaker 1: that's not what happened. It doesn't make any sense. This
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  Speaker 1: case should have been treated as a homicide from the
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  Speaker 1: very beginning, and that should have been the default position,
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  Speaker 1: but unfortunately it was not. You know, I just am thinking,
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  Speaker 1: how in the hey they could even say that that
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  Speaker 1: her cause of death she just sat down in the
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  Speaker 1: mar and died. Marsh is a mixture of sand, earth, foliage,
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  Speaker 1: and water. And I find it very difficult to believe.
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle dupris renowned medical examiner joining out of South
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  Speaker 1: Carolina and author. Doctor Dupre, I'm not buying that for
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  Speaker 1: one minute. Why are they even trying to tell me
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  Speaker 1: that that she died because she got exhausted and sat
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  Speaker 1: down in the marsh, and and and drowned. I don't
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  Speaker 1: believe that for one minute they could look at her lungs,
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  Speaker 1: doctor dupres and determine if she drowned or not. What, Nancy,
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  Speaker 1: You've got excellent points. Normally you certainly wouldn't think that.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't think that she just sat down and died.
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  Speaker 1: She may have sat down, she may have passed out,
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  Speaker 1: she may have m she may have hailed marsh muddy
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  Speaker 1: gooey water. But yeah, sure, absolutely right. Why can we
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  Speaker 1: not look at the autopsy and tell that's why we
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  Speaker 1: do an autopsy? Hold on, I got I thought here,
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  Speaker 1: and I don't want to lose it. Even a year later,
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  Speaker 1: her body, as Ellen Klaurine just told us, was found
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  Speaker 1: not far from what she was like spotted bamming on doors,
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  Speaker 1: begging for help twenty three minute nine one one call.
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  Speaker 1: So obviously she died that night. But are you telling
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  Speaker 1: me that, one year later, doctor Dupree, they cannot look
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  Speaker 1: at her lungs and determine ditch she drown or not. No,
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  Speaker 1: that's exactly what I'm saying. You can't. Yes, we should
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  Speaker 1: be able to do an autopsy, and we should be
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  Speaker 1: able to tell. It's going to depend. Of course, on
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  Speaker 1: the condition of the body. It always does. But chances
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  Speaker 1: are we can take microscopic sections of lung tissue and
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  Speaker 1: we should be able to tell. Okay, whoa when you
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  Speaker 1: say we can take microscopic sections of brain tissue, how
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  Speaker 1: do you do that? Is? Do you cut it with
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  Speaker 1: a nine I'm talking about the lungs. You open the
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  Speaker 1: body up in a ta bone, right a t you
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  Speaker 1: open the cut. Okay, you get the lungs out. When
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  Speaker 1: you say you take a piece of tissue, what do
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  Speaker 1: you do it with? You pluck it off with tweezers
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  Speaker 1: or do you slice it off? How do you do
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  Speaker 1: that depends on the organ it is. With the lungs,
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  Speaker 1: we'll take usually a scalpel and we'll take section small
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  Speaker 1: sections of those lungs and they slice it off like
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  Speaker 1: a knife with a knife. Yes, yes, then you put
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  Speaker 1: that under the microscope. Just you don't just look at
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  Speaker 1: the lungs like you're looking at a basketball. How big
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  Speaker 1: are the lungs, doctor Dupree, Well, the lungs are about
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  Speaker 1: the size of your forearm. Okay, So you don't just
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  Speaker 1: look at them with a naked eye. You slice off
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  Speaker 1: a piece, as you said, with a scalpel, and you
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  Speaker 1: put that under a microscope. Correct, Well, we fix it
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  Speaker 1: in formal one, which is a preservative, and then we
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  Speaker 1: put it into a wax processing machine and we cut
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  Speaker 1: slices of that and attach that to a microscopic slide
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  Speaker 1: and look at under the microspite. So long story short, Yes,
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  Speaker 1: you do put it under a microscope. Now wait a minute.
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  Speaker 1: Remember I'm just a lawyer. You're the doctor. Now hold on.
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  Speaker 1: You look under the microscope, and if you're looking to
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  Speaker 1: see if she drowned, what would you expect to find. Well,
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  Speaker 1: if she drowned, we may or may not be able
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  Speaker 1: to see evidence of that, but we should be able
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  Speaker 1: to see debris like the marsh, muddy water, something like that.
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  Speaker 1: In the lungs, we can tell us the lungs are congested,
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  Speaker 1: meaning they have fluid in them. They should have air
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  Speaker 1: and not fluid. So you can tell the difference because
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  Speaker 1: you can tell. Let's just say somebody dies at sea,
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  Speaker 1: but when they are autopsy, do you find out it's
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  Speaker 1: fresh water in their lungs, so they didn't diet. See,
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  Speaker 1: they died somewhere else like a bathtub, and we're put
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  Speaker 1: at sea. My point is, can you analyze the debris
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  Speaker 1: within the lungs and tell me was it marsh muddy,
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  Speaker 1: marsh water? Was it something else? And was it to
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  Speaker 1: the extent that she died of drowning as opposed to
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  Speaker 1: something else? Yes, again answer It depends on the totality
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  Speaker 1: of circumstances and the condition of that body. But those
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  Speaker 1: are exactly the kinds of questions that autopsies are designed
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  Speaker 1: to answer. We are talking about the death of Shannon Gilbert,
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  Speaker 1: just twenty four years old, and her murder is just
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  Speaker 1: the tip of the Iceberg Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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  Speaker 1: Everyone you are listening to crime stories. I'm Nancy Grace,
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  Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 1: What's you take a listen to our friends at Picks eleven.
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  Speaker 1: This is Mary Murphy. Let's assume he said, Robert Moses
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  Speaker 1: Cause Ocean Parkway. He's traveling westbound. We followed retired Chief
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  Speaker 1: Dominic Vrone back to Gilgo. So he pull over, pop
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  Speaker 1: the suv, pull out the body and just throw it
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  Speaker 1: as far as he could, head first into the bramble.
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  Speaker 1: Verne was here in December twenty ten as command under
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  Speaker 1: of Suffolk County Detectives when the bodies of four Slane
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  Speaker 1: sex workers were discovered at Gilgo Beach, some of the
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  Speaker 1: yearlier murders. They were picked up in New York City.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, the NYPD had investigated the disappearance of the
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  Speaker 1: first victim, Melissa Barthelomy. She vanished from the Bronx in
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  Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. Her unknown killer even used Barthelomy's
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  Speaker 1: cell phone near Penn Station to taunt her family, who
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  Speaker 1: spoke in twenty eleven, Melissa's a little sister. That's how
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  Speaker 1: he started out the conversation, Melissa, Melissa's little sister, and
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  Speaker 1: she answered, yeah, it was a very simplistic, hurtful call. Wow,
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  Speaker 1: I'm want to go straight back out to Ellen Colaurin,
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  Speaker 1: investigative reporter with crime online dot Com ek So, Shannon Gilbert,
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  Speaker 1: the twenty four year old young lady were talking about today,
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  Speaker 1: is one of how many dead bodies along Gilgo Beach
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  Speaker 1: eleven including Shannons eleven including Shannon. Okay, back to you,
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  Speaker 1: James shell Nutt twenty seventy years Metro major case Now lawyer,
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  Speaker 1: you do agree with me. Unlike many defense attorneys, it's
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  Speaker 1: got to be the same killer. They're all buried along
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  Speaker 1: the same stretch of beach. You'll go beach, and I
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  Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe that one killer places
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  Speaker 1: the body there and just by straight coincidence, or as
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  Speaker 1: my son John Names says, on coincidence, somebody else comes
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  Speaker 1: and finds the same exact promote area to hide their
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  Speaker 1: dead bodies. Of course it's the same killer. Shell nutt.
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  Speaker 1: Of course it is that. There's no doubt it's the
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  Speaker 1: same killer. There were a lot of similarities to all
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  Speaker 1: of these bodies were on the same side of the road.
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  Speaker 1: Some of these bodies were within one hundred two hundred
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  Speaker 1: yards of each other. Most of the bodies were within sight,
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  Speaker 1: so if you're standing along the side of the road,
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  Speaker 1: you can look down the road and see the portions
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  Speaker 1: of the roadway or side of the roadway that these
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  Speaker 1: bodies were buried. Several of the bodies were buried in
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  Speaker 1: a burlap sack. Other similarities involved. There is no doubt
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  Speaker 1: that it was a serial killer or serial killers that
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  Speaker 1: placed the bodies there. I think it's one killer. And
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  Speaker 1: you know why what is it, doctor Bethany Marshall. Nobody
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: can keep their yap shup. Here's an example. Remember all
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: the conspiracy theories about the setup of Orenthal James Simpson
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: O J. Simpson, that it was all a setup to
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: get him. Why why do we want to get OJ
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Simpson other than he's a double killer. But there's no
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  Speaker 1: way that all those police officers could have framed OJ
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Simpson and then kept quiet about it for all these years,
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  Speaker 1: because how many million dollar book deals would they have
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  Speaker 1: if they talk. So I think there's one killer, and
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  Speaker 1: it's definitely a man, and he killed all these women,
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany. I think so because when you look at
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  Speaker 1: the mindset of the serial killer, what you see in
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  Speaker 1: terms of victim selection is availability. That these are young
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  Speaker 1: women out and about in society. You see vulnerability that
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  Speaker 1: they are by themselves. Shannon Gilbert was so vulnerable knocking
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  Speaker 1: on people's doors nobody would take her in on the
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  Speaker 1: phone for twenty three minutes, incredibly vulnerable, and then desirability.
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  Speaker 1: Serial killers have a victim type. So if you start
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  Speaker 1: to speak to their being just one perpetrator, look at
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  Speaker 1: all these women. They're young, they're beautiful, they're vulnerable, they're available,
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  Speaker 1: some of them sex workers. So they are like isolated
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  Speaker 1: from society and they're rights targets. What about it, Ak
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Ellen Claurin joining me from crime online dot Com. Ak,
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  Speaker 1: what do we know about the physicality of the various victims?
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  Speaker 1: The eleven women? Are they all? Why? We know that
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  Speaker 1: they're all women, different races. Not all of the victims
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  Speaker 1: have been identified. That's one thing. That's one thing to
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  Speaker 1: keep in mind. There is one victim who is a
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: John Doe. They all of the others are women, and
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  Speaker 1: one small child who police believe was killed with her mother.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Oh lord, that's right. That's Ryan Ellen. Complete deviation from
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: the typical mo emodus operandi method of operation. You know,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: what's interesting is that when you look at serial killers,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: for instance, I looked at all all the all the
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: victims of serial killer Ted Bundy, and the startling similarity
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  Speaker 1: of their physicality, the way they looked is amazing. It's
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  Speaker 1: shocking how closely they resembled each other. So I'm guessing
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  Speaker 1: the lot of these women will look physically similar to
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  Speaker 1: each other. And also, I don't know why, but we
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  Speaker 1: learned that doctor Bethany Marshall, very often serial killers do
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  Speaker 1: not cross racial boundaries. They will murder within their own race,
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  Speaker 1: which is very interesting to me. I don't know what
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  Speaker 1: it means, but I know it to be true. Well,
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  Speaker 1: even though they put tremendous energy into their crimes, I
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  Speaker 1: think they're also kind of lazy, scared, and rejection prone,
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  Speaker 1: and because of that they croll for victims very in
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: their their own group where there's availability and access. There's
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: profound research about serial killers where that suggests that every
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: single one was rejected by their mother. Now we know
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  Speaker 1: that there are a brain different Bethany, Bethany, Bethany, It's true.
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  Speaker 1: I know I shouldn't, but I'm a psychologue. I really
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: wish you wouldn't because you know why, I am the
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: twins and I now I have to think about every
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: move I make. Is it going to turn them into
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: some crazy, deranged whatever. Thanks Bethany. That's something I can
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: think about tonight. But is a break in the case. Guys,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to Mary Murphy
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: joining us from Picks eleven. The sub police commissioner said
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  Speaker 1: the killer left a black belt at one of the
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  Speaker 1: multiple scenes where bodies were dumped, with the initials HM
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  Speaker 1: or wh on it. We believe that the belt was
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: handled by the suspect. A law enforcement source who worked
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: on the Gilgo beach case told me that the initials
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: embossed on the inside of the black belt are about
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: a half inch high, and he said the hand he
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: work looks like something you might have found done at
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: a shopping mall in the eighties or nineties. The initials
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: on the belt have caused a frenzy of speculation, with
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: some web sludes tying the initials to a friend of
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Disgrace Chief James Burke. Burke went to prison in twenty
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  Speaker 1: sixteen for beating up a drug addicted suspect who stole
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: a stash of porn and sex toys from the chief's
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: official police car. Burke was released last year. Well, it's
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: a plot thickening. Why I wondered did they weigh so
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: long cops to tell us that a belt? Were the
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: letters HM or WH depending on if you were looking
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: at it upside down? HM or WH was found to
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: sharel a point in joining me the gene hunter g
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: e ne genetic genealogist. After all this time, what's the
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: likelihood of getting DNA off that belt? Nancy, I believe
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: they still have a very high likelihood of being able
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: to get DNA off of that belt. It's not the
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: same as say, if you were trying to get DNA
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: off off of a body in a rape case, the
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: DNA if the belt was touched by them, the murderer,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the DNA very possibly still would be in there, on there.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: And but how after all this time is it because
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: of the oil end of fingertip when you touch it,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: it really has to be washed with what a soap
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: type substance to get that oil, which is really why
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: you have a fingerprint. Are you saying that could still
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: be on there? Yes, ma'am, it still can be on there.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: It's it's trace DNA, and when you touch an object,
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: your DNA stays on that object. Of course, it would
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: depend on the elements where the belt was. I can't
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: help but feel that because of the advancements in DNA technology,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: maybe they were able to process it with these new
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: methods and find more information. Oftentimes you have multiple DNA,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: you know, it may have been the victims DNA and
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: the murderer's DNA, and it may have been difficult to
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: separate in the past, but with new technologies it's become
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: easier to do those things. And it's very possible that
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: that's why all of a sudden the belt has become important.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Hi guys, Nancy Grace here, we have all worked so
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim, Fighting
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: back against America's crime Wave, a brand new book. After
• 19:19
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• 19:38
  Speaker 1: the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Eleven people have lost their lives, all
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: women and one child, all buried along a lonely stretch
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: of Gilgo Beach. But still the perp is unapprehended, even
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  Speaker 1: calling one of the victim's families with the victim's cell phone.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: On one occasion, her little sister picked it up and
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: it was traced back to the Penn Station area where
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Madison Square Gardens is. That in itself, reveals a twisted,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: twisted mindset not only murder one of eleven people, but
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  Speaker 1: then call the victim's family from the victim's cell phone again.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: being with us. Is there a break in the case,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: a belt with the initials WH or h M, which
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: could be either if you look at the belt upside
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: down with me an all star panel. But first, I
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: want to go to a very special guest joining us.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: It's John Ray, and he is the lawyer for the
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: family of then twenty four year old Shannon Gilbert. John Ray,
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  Speaker 1: you've put in literally hundreds of hours on this case.
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  Speaker 1: Who do you think murdered these women? Well, there's a
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: number of possibilities, of course, but it's fairly clear that
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  Speaker 1: there's more than one person. Shannon is running away. Well, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: when Shannon's running away, she's saying on the we know
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  Speaker 1: she said on the nine one one calls, they're trying
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: to kill me in the floral. We also know, by
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  Speaker 1: the way that there are no lungs found, because only
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: her bones were found. And when you, I think you
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: had said before that she died that night, there's no
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: evidence that she died that night. She could have lived
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: for a long time. Nobody really knows, And that she
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: died in the marsh is absurd because or in the
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  Speaker 1: way they say the police say she died, it's because
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  Speaker 1: I walked that marsh. A year later, in at the
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: same time that Shannon would have walked. The water is
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  Speaker 1: only inches deep. Where she's found, she's found laying down,
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  Speaker 1: face up with her head on a bush, So none
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  Speaker 1: of those things can be true. And certainly where she
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  Speaker 1: was found, she's only thirty maybe thirty to fifty feet
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  Speaker 1: away from the roadway to the Ocean Parkway. And on
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  Speaker 1: the other side there are houses. You can see right
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  Speaker 1: into their breakfast tables as you're having breakfast at that
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  Speaker 1: time of the morning. So there's just no way she
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: just suddenly decided to drop dead. Of are agreed question
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  Speaker 1: to you with me the lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family,
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  Speaker 1: John Ray, who's devoted I'm sure over a thousand hours
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: to this case. By now, John Ray, you were saying
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  Speaker 1: that you don't or she didn't necessarily die the night
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  Speaker 1: that she was running calling nine one one. Are you
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: suggesting that she was held against her will for a
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: period of time and then killed. That's a real possibility.
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  Speaker 1: And uh, there's strange evidence. There's a lot of evidence
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  Speaker 1: that the public doesn't know. But I've you know, I've
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  Speaker 1: glombed from our investigations and depositions. I've taken numerous depositions
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: of people in Oak Beach. And the long and short
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  Speaker 1: is that, um, there could be It could very well
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  Speaker 1: be she was held for a while before she finally disappeared.
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  Speaker 1: When the police helicopters flew over the marsh, they were
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: unable to see her, so she might not have been
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  Speaker 1: There is one, you know, one theory as well. Uh.
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  Speaker 1: The some of the things that were found Shaddon's belongings
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  Speaker 1: were uh, they didn't look like they had been in
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  Speaker 1: the marsh very long at all, as opposed to Shaddon's body,
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  Speaker 1: which was completely decomposed. So, I mean, there's there are
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  Speaker 1: many more follow your theory three to its logical conclusion,
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  Speaker 1: and is that more than one person is involved in
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  Speaker 1: the death of these eleven people, all women, one child.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Is that your your theory? You think they're more than
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: there's more than one killer. Yeah, that's my theory. And
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  Speaker 1: also it's it's nine nine women, one Asian male y,
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  Speaker 1: a cross dresser and a child. And uh, and in
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: these cases as well, there could be very well, it's
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: what's entered into our investigation is a cultish element that
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: could be involved, which would then suggest more I mean,
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  Speaker 1: what cultish element are you talking about? Well, there's uh,
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  Speaker 1: you know, Mary, the mother of Shannon, was a practicing
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: which for twenty two years, and she had a lot
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  Speaker 1: of connections in that area. UM and in fact, she
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: was living off of Shannon's earnings uh during that time.
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  Speaker 1: So when Channa was alive, and there's a real possibility
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  Speaker 1: that there's some connection there with the people who are
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: involved in that kind of us are practice, and I
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  Speaker 1: find that that's getting to be outlandish. I mean, I'm
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  Speaker 1: not saying it's something not to investigate, but to suggest
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  Speaker 1: that these eleven people, and yes, one of them was
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  Speaker 1: an Asian male cross dresser, you're absolutely correct to suggest
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  Speaker 1: that a group of people would commit murder as part
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  Speaker 1: of the I assume you're referring to the Wiccan beliefs. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: but I mean I really hard to believe. That's just
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  Speaker 1: one angle. But but it's a lot of things are
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: hard to believe in this case, So you got to
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: they have to be pursued. Like to go with what's
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: it probable, what's not? What's possible? I mean, it's possible
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  Speaker 1: that little Green men flew down from Mars and committed
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the murders. It's possible. Is it probable? No, it's not.
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  Speaker 1: And I find the proximity of her body's discovery to
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  Speaker 1: where she was banging on doors to be a probitive.
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  Speaker 1: It proves something too me to you. John Ray, renowned
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: lawyer who is working with the victims family, Shannon Gilbert's family.
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  Speaker 1: How far from those doors she was banging on to
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: save her own life? How far from those doors was
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: her body found? Her body found about I would say
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  Speaker 1: less than a mile away, on the other side of
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  Speaker 1: the marsh from where the other victims were found. Okay,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: let's analyze that, because that's hard evidence that you can't
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: get away with away from. James shell Night, twenty seven
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: years Metro Major k swat now lawyer shell Nut. What
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  Speaker 1: does that tell you? Tells me that she did die
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  Speaker 1: close to the night, if not the night she was
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  Speaker 1: bamming on doors because somebody was chasing her. And then
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: they find her body less than a half a mile
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  Speaker 1: that's a five minute walk from where she was bamming
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: on doors. Yeah, I agree. I thought that this world
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  Speaker 1: put it definitely links back to everything that we know.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: So for you know, there's been a lot of drama
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: surrounding the case in that police are not releasing a
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: lot of the vital information. Take a listen to our
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: friend James Ford at Picks eleven News. We are launching
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: a website. It's called gilgonews dot com, with the hope
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: that with its release the public will generate new tips
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: and new investigative leads. But the website has yet to work,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: and there's been criticism of investigators development. For years, nine years,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: the Suffolk County Police Department has covered up the fact
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: in this investigation. John Ray is the attorney for the
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: family of Shannon Gilbert. She was a sex worker whose
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: disappearance after leaving the home of a client in the
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Gilgo area in twenty ten sparked the search that resulted
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  Speaker 1: in so many bodies being found. Gilbert had called nine
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  Speaker 1: on one at length the night she vanished. Release of
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: the tapes of that call was among many things blocked
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: by then police Chief James Burke and then District Attorney
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Tom Spoda. Both men have now been convicted of crimes
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: unrelated to the Gilgo killings. New leaders say today's disclosures
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: show more openness, but they're still not releasing Shannon Gilbert's
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: nine one one tape. We don't think she never match
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: as many of the patterns of the Gilgo Beach homicides.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: So was Shannon Gilbert's murder part of the work of
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: a serial killer? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a case
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: that has never been resolved? Are there other bodies? Are
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: there other victims? We're focusing today on Shannon Gilbert. You know,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: I don't really understand why this is true. They has,
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  Speaker 1: you know, to Dave Mack joining me along with Ellen Klaurin,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: both investigative reporters at Crime Online dot com. Dave Mac,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: why is it that every time someone introduces this case,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: they go a sex worker. You know, that little girl,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: the little the child. That child wasn't a sex worker.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: And very often, when you're talking about homicide cases or
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: any case, forget just homicide, you don't say, oh, I'm
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Jackie Howard was a victim today and she's a radio producer,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: because that doesn't factor into it. These women, no matter what,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: are always tagged as a sex worker, as if somehow
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: that makes their lives less valuable. Yep, and Nancy, you know,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: the sad reality of what you're playing out is I
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: went to the Gilgnews dot com website while you were
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: talking just to see how did they handle it well,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: you know, the first line is the story about Shannon Gilbert,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: who says Shannon Gilbert Comma, a Craig's list escort, went
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: missing two ek Ellen Kilauren joining me. Ellen. What do
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: we know about the child that was buried with the
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: child's mother, Nancy. We know very little because we don't
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: have an identification on either of those victims. But there
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: we know that there were no the mother was dismembered,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: the child was not. There were no visible signs of
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: trauma on the child. But we really know very very
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: little about that case, and the police believe that it
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: predates the Guild go for I still say it Snike coinstance.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: They're all buried together. So the discussion that there's more
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: than one serial killer using the same dumping ground, that's
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: you know, you're let's just think of you're at one
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: end of the football field and you look down to
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  Speaker 1: the other end. They're not that much further away from
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  Speaker 1: each other than that. These bodies, the burlap bags used
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: consistently with many of the victims to put their bodies in. Yes,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: it's the same killer. To doctor Michelle Dupree, South Carolina
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Medical examine or author of homicide investigation field guide, Doctor Dupree.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: When you find a child's body, even if skeletonized, correct
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  Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. You can tell if it's a
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: girl or a boy by the teeth, a jawline, in
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: the pelvic area. You can tell the age, and of
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: course the length of the remains. What can even if
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: the child's body is skeletonized, what can you tell me
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: about the identity of the child? Yes, Stancy, we can
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: tell the sex. We can determine the approximate age. We
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: can also tell other things depending on you know, how
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: the child died. If there are injuries to the skeletal remain,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: we can see if they're you know, gunshot wounds or
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: sharp forced injuries or things like that, or on trauma,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: if there is fractures. So we're able to tell through
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: oftentimes through mitochondrial DNA, which we can recover from the
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: bone era to who that child is related to, provided
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: we have a sample, of course, to match it with.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: I'm eternal sample. Mitochondrial DNA comes from the mother, and
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: that is different from nuclear DNA, which you get, for instance,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: from let's just say, a root of your hair, which
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: as the mother and the father's genetic profile in it.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: To Sheryl A point, speaking of the gene hunter, a
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: genetic genealogist. I'm still blown away by this belt they found,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: But i find it very hard to believe Cheryl a
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: point that we can't identify who the purpose. You've got
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: a belt likely with DNA may even being used to
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: strangle one of the victims. It had to be for
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: a sex dead. There should have been the killer's DNA
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: in in or on the victim's body. And you've even
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: got the killer using one of the victim's cell phones
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: to taunt the victim's family. The little sister picks up
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: when he calls the victim's home. Put it really heartibly.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: With all that evidence, we can't get the killer. They've
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: got eleven dead bodies that we know of in this
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: one dumping ground. Share the point, shouldn't there even on
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: and a body that's been disposed of, shouldn't there be
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: just let's just say the victims were raped. Why can't
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: we get DNA, Nancy, If the victims were raped, you
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: only have a certain amount of time that that DNA
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: would be viable to you know, you'd have to collect
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: it within a certain amount of time to be able
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: to identify that specific deal. Wait, let me explain what
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: you just said. I think, and you correct me if
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Because we hear of cases getting cracked years
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: and years and years later, like the Golden State killer case. Remember,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: and they had but they took the DNA, the sperm,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: the semen at the time of the rapes. So what
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: you're saying is if the body is disposed of and
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: years pass, you may not be able to get the semen,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: whereas in the earlier cases many years passed before it's cracked,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: but they got the DNA the semen at the time
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: of the rape. Is that right? That is correct, Nancy.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: They would have attained that DNA, obtained that DNA at
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: that time. If these bodies were found decomposed later, at
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: a later time from when the death occurred, you won't
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: have that particular DNA. Now you could identify these victims
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: who are unidentified with obtaining DNA from their bones, and
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: that is when investigative genetic genealogy can come into play.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: You would first run this DNA through the CODA system
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: to see if you could identify the bodies. If not,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: you run it again looking for a familial DNA, possibly
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: a relative of the DNA from the body, and if
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: that doesn't work, we will genetic genealogy familial DNA such
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: as what was used by I think it was Paul
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Holes when he crack helped as part of a team
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: crack the Golden State Killer case. To you special guests
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: joining us. The lawyer for Shannon Gilbert, it's John Ray.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: He's right, he said, if this had been some millionaire debutante,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: you couldn't have kept the experts and the CSI away
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: from this spot. But that was not to be for
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Shannon Gilbert. And that breaks my heart because I think
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: of her mom wondering what happened to Shannon. I'm just
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: thinking about the discrepancy in the way that this case
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: was treated because, as Gilbert said, she was not a debutante.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: You know, I bet a lot of people in this room,
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: like myself, we're not debutots, and I would certainly want
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: our cases to get the love and attention that every
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: case deserves. A family, many families, eleven families waiting for answers.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Some of these women still Jane Doe, we don't even
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: know who they are. And having prosecuted a Jane do case.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: I know how that feels. You don't know who your
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: victim is. You can go to gilgnews dot com more information,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: But we wait as just as unfalls Nancy Grace crimes story,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye, Fenn