Latest / PCMA Convene Podcast / Convene Interview [CL26 SPECIAL] Leading with Empathy: Jahkini Bisselink on Cultural Intelligence and Generational Connection
Transcript
- Convene Podcast Transcript Convene Interview, ep. 12 *Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies Magdalina Atanassova: We're going to explore how to lead with empathy with Jahkini Bisselink. Jahkini is the Convene podcast. Jakini is a global foresight leader, helping organizations understand the values shaping the future of work. I'm excited to talk about empathy and cultural intelligence and how they can transform spaces and event spaces, especially to be more authentic and to foster authentic connection and to also explore what planners can really do to foster belonging across generations. So, Jahkini, thank you so much for joining us. Jahkini Bisselink: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Magdalina Atanassova: So, as we are recording here live at Convening Leaders, you gave the audience a challenge and you ask them to actually swear on their heart that for the first five minutes after the session, they won't look into their phones. How do you think that went? Jahkini Bisselink: Well, actually, I had some people coming up to me just now saying, I did what you asked me. I didn't touch my phone for the first five minutes. Now, of course, we always see that there's quite some people that still have that natural instinct to grab their phones and go on them. But I think the most important thing is the first time they hear it, it's going to be a bit uncomfortable. And then the second time you hear it, perhaps it's to be a bit uncomfortable. But in the third time and the fourth time, it starts to become more of a habit. So we're going to have to create it together. And maybe it doesn't succeed 100% the first time, but we're going to make a start together. Yeah, I love it. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, it's always awkward because you kind of. Right. You need to escape. Right. Which is strange because we're in a. In a space where we should feel trust in one another. Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah, yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: So how can we as event planners actually use these spaces to restore trust, especially in these times where it feels in very short supply? Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah. I think I'd like to touch upon the metaphor that I spoke about before in the session, the Kletzkasa. Magdalina Atanassova: Can you explain it for those that haven't been to the session? Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah, yeah. So, you know what's quite interesting is that we know we're living in a world that is becoming more and more digital. But you also see that a lot of people, they say, well, the balance between the digital world and the physical world is distorted and they want to get back. They want to get pulled back into that physical world as well. So there's this supermarket branch in the Netherlands and they're using great new technology like the self service checkout, I think Almost every supermarket has it right now. But they started doing a lot of research about the mental well being of their customers. And they found out that a lot of people, especially the youngsters and the people who are retired, that they are struggling with, well, making connections in that offline work, making friends, having just chitchat, a small conversation. So what did they do, the Supermarket? They installed 200 Kletzkase and this is a Dutch word and it translates into a chit chat counter. So basically a counter where you will have the most social employee of the organization sitting there to spark and initiate conversation with the customers. And I think what is important here is that people in the events industry realize that you are also a klatzkasse. You are a place where people still come physical events face to face, where you have human connections. This is what young people and people in general, but especially young people are looking for. So consider what can be the classical SaaS of your event? What are things that you can do to pull people back in the physical world and really shape and create meaningful connections? Magdalina Atanassova: And do you feel, especially nowadays with this digital overload, that we tend to bring this into events as well with all the technology that we bring? What have you seen as an international speaker? Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah, I mean, to a certain extent I don't want to be that person that is all like doomy and gloomy about technology because I mean, in some aspects it also makes our lives easier. And even with, for example, the self service checkout, it can also be good for the mental health for some people. Let's say if you're an introvert and you've had a long day at work and you just don't feel like talking with anyone, it can also be good for your mental health. So I think the most important thing is that we create a balance. And sometimes also that means asking ourselves a critical question and saying, does this really need a separate app, you know, or does this really need a separate website? Does this really need a QR code or can we just, you know, print out something physically that we can touch? So yeah, I think that sometimes we can ask ourselves that questions from a bit more of a critical lens as well. Magdalina Atanassova: I love that. Yeah. When you speak about empathy and when you connect that to events, it's kind of scaling that empathy to such a large number of people. Can that be actually done in a good way so that it really touches everyone, creates this space of connection and belonging? Jahkini Bisselink: Good question. I think maybe I want to take the angle of generational empathy, if that's okay. What is quite interesting is when I ask people, what do you associate with Generation Z? Quite often? I mean, we're in the States now, so people are usually a bit more polite. But in Europe, you know, we're very direct. And people say they're lazy, they don't want to work anymore, they're very activistic, they're very idealistic. But what's quite interesting is that if you look at the COVID of the New York Times 20 years ago, they were saying the exact same thing about Gen Xers. And you look at the COVID of the New York Times 40 years ago, they were saying the exact same thing about the baby boomers who were young. So if we really want to have this kind of generational empathy, I think it's important that we see a difference between generational characteristics and life phase characteristics. Life phase characteristics. Something that we've all been. We've all been young, we've all been judged by, you know, the elder generations on. On. On very specific topics. So it's good to realize that. So whenever, you know, whenever I will be 40 and I will say about the younger generations, where's their work ethos? I have to realize, okay, perhaps this has a lot to do with a life phase characteristic that I am in and that these youngsters are in right now to create some more empathy. I would say, yeah, yeah, I love. Magdalina Atanassova: That, because I feel we've all been on the receiving side. Jahkini Bisselink: Right. Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: I do remember when I was starting the industry, millennials were on. Jahkini Bisselink: What did they tell you then? Yes. Magdalina Atanassova: And I remember sitting in a session which was very specific on how to understand millennials. I was, I think, the only millennial in the room. And they started saying, so they usually have tattoos. Do you have tattoos? And I said, yes, they usually. So I. I fit very well in all the characteristics that they gave. And I said, but that does not define me. Jahkini Bisselink: No, no, right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And that's also a good point. I mean, we can talk about generations, but we should always remember that that generation consists out of individual. Can be some characteristics, but we're all still individuals, right? Yeah, exactly. Magdalina Atanassova: And that comes to cultural intelligence. Right. Which you highlight often in your keynotes. It's an important trait for leaders. And how can they use that to actually create these environments that. Jahkini Bisselink: Help. Magdalina Atanassova: That intergenerational communication help create those spaces where. Because now I think there are five. Jahkini Bisselink: Generations in the workforce. Magdalina Atanassova: Right. So we need to work together. Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah. Well, one thing that I really like is this idea of, well, maybe I can give two examples One is a huge shadow board. So what we see, and there's some companies that you've used is quite effectively, like for example, Gucci, the fashion brand, they were noticing that a lot of their people in leadership positions were getting a bit older or more experienced, to put it politely. But they were getting out of touch with this demographic that was actually consuming and buying their products. So back at, in that time, what they did is they set up a huge shadow board with a lot of particularly Millennials back then to advise the board on their vision, on their strategy, on their long term campaigns. And I would say this also goes vice versa. So if you are a startup with a lot of young people in decision making processes, maybe take an, an elderly advisory board, you know, so just to make sure that you have the voices of those different generations represented in the most important part of your organization, the decision making process. Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: How can leaders do that effectively? Because from my personal experience, we just hear the voices, we don't listen to them. Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah, yeah. I think a few things, one of them is make that participation structural. So what we see quite often when we're trying to engage, for example, youth voices, is that it's quite easy to have them come over once a year on the goodwill of the leader, and then maybe next year there might be another leader and who doesn't really feel like doing this and all of a sudden that participation is gone. So it's really good to make that structural. But secondly, what I think is also quite important is when you have youth representatives in a board, make sure that they are actually representative. So quite often what we see is there will be a Gen Zetter or Millennial, and you see this in a lot of like underrepresented groups. And all of a sudden they will start for an entire generation or an entire demographic, which is like almost impossible. Right. How do you do that? How can I represent the voices of all the Dutch people in an organization of all the young people? So what is important is that you also make sure that if you have, let's say, a youth representative, that they also speak with the other young people in your organization. You can make some targets, let's say, speak with, depending on how big your organization is, 10 or 20 or maybe 100 or 2,000 young people per year or per quarter to make sure that they actually have an idea of what's going on beyond their own experience and that they are actually representative in the work that they are doing. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, that's a fantastic idea. And also we are noticing now that especially Gen Z. They communicate very differently. Jahkini Bisselink: Right? Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: We can't hide and we can't run away from that. But how do you think that's affecting the future of networking and events? Jahkini Bisselink: Oh, good question. Yeah. So you see that we have been communicating slightly different. Indeed. And a large part of that also has to do with the fact that we've been, well, basically raised with iPads and iPhones in our hands. That has made us really good at communicating in online platforms. Right. Speaking to our phones, recording videos, supernatural talented when it comes to those younger generations. But then at the same time you also see that things like networking and creating meaningful connections in the physical world has become a bit more challenging. Now, of course, it's not like we are completely like dumb and don't know how to talk to each other, but you do see that the skills of, for example, networking, that it does come a bit more naturally to, let's say the 35 plusers, so the older millennials, the Gen Xers, the baby boomers. So what does that mean? That means that we need more people in leadership position to, as I said, step into that role of a loving mentor and also give young people that nudge as visitors of events, but also as their employees to go out there and create the skills to be able to have those conversations and to create those deeper connections in the here and now. Magdalina Atanassova: Have you seen good examples of that? Jahkini Bisselink: Ooh, good question. Have I seen good examples of companies doing that? Honestly, what you see quite often is now this is not a company, but maybe a fun example. I'm not sure if you heard about running clubs. Magdalina Atanassova: No, actually I don't. Jahkini Bisselink: No running clubs. Okay. So what happens there is it's just people coming together, usually young people, and they are. Or just going out for a run with friends. Friends. And it started out as something just very fit and festive to do with your friends, but eventually it turned out to be a dating pool for young people. So a lot of young people, they are trading their dating apps and they're going to running clubs instead to form connections to find a romantic life partner. And I think this is interesting and I think that perhaps also organizations can learn from this. How can you become the new running club? Perhaps not to form romantically relations, but to help young people form deeper connections on a more professional level, but perhaps also more on a. On a friendship level as well. Yeah. So how can you create those kinds of events as well for your visitors and for your employees? Magdalina Atanassova: Sounds good. But yes, probably not dating. Jahkini Bisselink: No, let's get into that mix. Magdalina Atanassova: Pleasure in business? Jahkini Bisselink: No, no. Magdalina Atanassova: So I heard Holly ask you that on stage, but I feel now you can expand a bit more about the misconception that leaders often have towards Gen. Jahkini Bisselink: Z. Oh, well, I think there's a lot of misconceptions. A lot of them have to do with the confusion between live phase characteristics and generational characteristics that we've been speaking about before. But maybe one that I find interesting that we haven't touched upon is this idea that Gen Z craves flexibility and that we want to, well, just change jobs after every six months if we can. Because it's quite interesting, if you read a lot of research, what you actually see is if you ask young people how long would you like to stay at an employer if they pay you enough to pay your rent and, you know, all the basics, the average is actually seven years. Magdalina Atanassova: Oh, wow. Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah. And the average on which they actually stay at an organization is between one and a half and two years. But that is more often a reflection of labor laws. It is more often a reflection of the fact that, well, sometimes they don't earn enough money so they have to keep moving. But actually, if it's up to those Gen Zers, they want to stay loyal to one organization for a pretty long time. So that whole side hustle culture that we see, it's not necessarily only out of, well, fun, but we also see that it's out of economic necessity that they've been, well, starting to side hustle and change jobs so often. So I guess that is one thing that I really find important that we understand about the next generation. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, definitely something that I had no idea about as well. I think I was also very kind of cultured in. Into that perception. Jahkini Bisselink: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, how was that for you when you started working? Because, sorry, I know you're. I can imagine for a lot of, like, millennials as well. Did you graduate during the economic recession? Magdalina Atanassova: I graduated 2009, so it's just a little bit after it was 2008, the crash. But when indeed when I graduated, it was really hard to find a job. Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: And also back then we had the culture of free internships. Right. Which I think is changing quite a bit right now. Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah, luckily. Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: Yes. That was not fun. Jahkini Bisselink: No, no. Magdalina Atanassova: You need to live and support yourself. Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah, yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: But, yeah, absolutely. Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: I think also, I don't know if we had. We were still, you know, thought by the other generations, you know, that idea of working hard, getting things done, being positive that we heard on stage also in the main stage. Today. So I think we kind of have a little bit of that in us. Jahkini Bisselink: But this is quite an interesting point perhaps to touch upon as well because we see that there can be a bit of generational friction right. On how we deal with challenges on the workflow. But a lot of that also has to do with the type of crises that you experience in your formative years. So we see that Gen Z is not doing too well when it comes to their mental health and we see that a lot of Gen Xers, so let's say the 40 to 55 year olds, a lot of them, they're doing quite well and they have a lot of resilience, but this has to do with the crises that they experience in the formative years. So if we just look at, for example, a few of the crises that people have experienced in Europe and in a lot of Western European American countries, you can think of things like Chernobyl, you can think of the Cold War, you can think of the hole in the ozone layer, you can think of the millennium bug. And if you look at all those crises, Chernobyl, it was a big disaster in the region, but it wasn't a nuclear disaster for all, as some people expected. Right. Some experts, Cold War, also really tense, really like bad for the mental well being of a lot of youngsters back then. Eventually, against the expectations of experts, nothing happened in Europe. Now the hole in the ozone layer, a climate problem, and they have to experience that it can be fixed. They used technology, they used resources, they used a lot of hard work, but it was fixed. And the millennium bug, well, eventually nothing happened. So a lot of them, they have the experience that a crisis can come to an end or that nothing happens or you just have to work really hard and things will resolve themselves. So that is also why they are usually left with this attitude of work hard and stay positive and everything will be okay. Whereas a lot of Gen Zers, they haven't had that experience yet to go through a crisis and to also experience that a crisis can come to an end. Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: Do you think the pandemic showed that, you know, it can end and in a positive way in a sense because the whole world came together to find a solution. Jahkini Bisselink: So yeah, definitely. I think that that is one example where we saw that a crisis came to an end. But one thing that is still fundamentally different from let's say 20, 30, 40 years ago is the amount of exposure that you have to crisis. So you know, when you're young and if you have a phone, if you have social Media, the entirety of your formative years, you will be exposed to bad news. From the moment that you wake up to the moment that you go to sleep, you will be exposed to those crises. And that is something that is quite different to, you know, 20, 30 years ago. So hence we also see that it has quite a heavy impact on the mental health and the mental well being of these youngsters. And to be honest, I'm also a bit frightened what will happen to the generation after us, the generation of us. So, yeah, yeah, fingers crossed. Magdalina Atanassova: Do you think events can be kind of the salvation or at least a little bit of an island, you know, that bad news, just a place where you can come and feel positive and supported by a community? Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah, definitely. I think that, that just coming together physically is one of those things that can help against that feeling of, you know, overwhelm and constant being confronted with bad news in the digital world. But next to that, what I would also say is that a lot of the problems that young people are experiencing is the fact that the problems that they are confronted with seem so humongous that you don't know where to start. And I think if you really want to help them, and I know that, for example, PCMA also has a mission to really focus on, for example, sustainability and inclusion is make it actionable. So say if you, for example, something really small, if you fill your water bottle here instead of buying one, this is how you contribute positively to the climate or, I don't know, maybe you can take a different travel package and this is how you can contribute positively to this and this crisis. So make it really actionable, make it really tangible to help young people still get that feeling of influence. There's something that we can still do to work on all those crises that we are being confronted with all the time. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, yeah, it's really some. Sometimes it sounds like it's all doom and gloom. Jahkini Bisselink: Yes. Magdalina Atanassova: But the power is in community and coming together and talking to one another and connecting at the end of the day. Jahkini Bisselink: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Magdalina Atanassova: So how can we as event professionals help ensure those youth voices are being heard and being heard in our communities and being supported? And is there anything we're missing actually in what they're saying? Jahkini Bisselink: Ooh, good question. How can we support them in our local communities? Well, I think a good start. So we spoke about a huge shadow board. I think this is something that takes a bit of time, but perhaps something a bit more concrete in something that people can do next week when they go back to work is find a Gen Z mutual mentor. So basically, normally when we have mentorship, it's someone in a senior position giving advice to someone in a junior position. You also have this concept of Gen Z reverse mentoring. So then Gen Z gives advice to someone in a senior leadership position. But I think mutual mentorship is even better because you're on an equal playing field. Right. We can both learn stuff from each other. Magdalina Atanassova: Gen Z-ers. Jahkini Bisselink: We need to learn a lot in the industry. But then the industry is also rapidly changing. Right. And if you want to stay future fit, you'll have to listen to those young voices as well and see what is going around in their atmosphere with Doorbell, their peers in their world. So perhaps that is just one very tangible piece of advice that I would give everyone. Magdalina Atanassova: Wonderful. Was there anything we didn't mention? We definitely should before we wrap up? Jahkini Bisselink: Good question. Yeah, maybe. One thing that I'd like to mention, and I spoke about it a bit in the keynote before, is that you see that a lot of young people, they feel the need to come back in the offline. We've spoken about it a bit as well. And one thing that I really like is this concept of digital etiquettes at events. So digital etiquettes is basically guidelines on how we interact with technology at events or on the workflow. There's many ways in which you can form and shape that, but one of them is, as we tried today, just having no phones for the first five minutes of the lunch break or of the coffee break, and now I mentioned it. But it would be great if you have a moderator, for example, at the beginning of the day, say, you know, I'm so happy to have you all here. There's so many ideas, there's so many people from all those different places. I want you to maximize and get the most out of the day. So we're gonna, I don't know, disable the WI fi or the data for the first five minutes in the lunchroom. Of course, I mean, we don't have to get off technology completely. There's still positives, but just to create more of a balance between that offline and the online. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. What I hear is just don't be afraid to reach out to another human being. Don't hide behind the screen. Jahkini Bisselink: Yes. And sometimes we need a bit of help with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: Good nudge. Jahkini, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Jahkini Bisselink: Thank you. It was lovely. Thank you so much. All right, thanks. Magdalina Atanassova: Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.