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"Too Cruel for School." · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: And I'm Erin Ryan.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Erin, it's great to see you. Listeners are probably wondering,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: where's that other guy? Where's that one John or the
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: other one named John? Listeners, I'm going to level with you.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America. We're playing Hurt today. Love it. Feeling sick.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Favreau is under the weather. I'm going to spare you
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: the details. But Erin and I are going to be
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: your hosts for today. So please be excited about that.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I'm excited for it.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Did you watch that soccer game the other week where
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: they had to do a shootout and it went through
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: the entire roster and the goalie had.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: To shoot out?
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: I'm essentially the goalie of the team. Like you have
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: worked down the entire roster.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, no. Erin, I want to
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: tell you Another story about another team that played hurt.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: This was September 23rd, 2001, week two of the NFL season.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: New York Jets linebacker Mo Lewis hit Patriots quarterback Drew
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Bledsoe so hard that his lung collapsed. He was out
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: for the season. Into the breach stepped a young Tom Brady.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: So congratulations. You're now married to Giselle and you have
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: seven Super Bowl rings.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, my hands did feel weird coming in.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: I thought it was just like arthritis because that runs
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: in my family, but it was all the rings on
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: my fingers.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: The invisible Super Bowl rings that are important.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Giant rings. So yeah, we got a lot of sports
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: metaphors for you today. We have a lot to cover. Also,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: listen to Hysteria, Erin's fantastic podcast. If you don't, you're
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: only hurting yourself is what I tell people about Hysteria.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Here's what we got today. The country and the world
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: has been totally focused on Ukraine. So we're going to
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: start somewhere else because Republicans have not slowed down their
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: efforts to pass legislation attacking the LGBT community and the
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: ongoing assault against Roe and a woman's right to choose
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: that is happening in states across the country. And it's
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: super fucked up and we should talk about it more.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: And Aaron and I are going to have some fun
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: talking about all the problems that Republicans are having with
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: technology these days, including some battles with Zoom over the weekend.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Don't let that get in the way of a geopolitical crisis,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: your mute button. And then Donald Trump's new social media site,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Truth Social. I don't know. Have you tried Truth Social?
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: No.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: No.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: No. No plans to either. No.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: It's not working too well here. And then I'm going
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: to interview MSNBC's Mehdi Hassan about Ukraine, the treatment of refugees,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: what about Islam and foreign policy, oil prices, maybe having
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: to do more work with the Saudis. So stick around
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: for that. And before we get to the news... Please
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: make sure you subscribe to Offline with Jon Favreau. Offline
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: has all grown up. It's moving over to its own feed.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: So it's not on the Pod Save America feed anymore.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: So you have to subscribe separately if you want to
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: hear it. And you do because this week Jon interviews
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Kara Swisher, who's really one of the best hangs in
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the podcasting space, if you ask me. Oh, yeah.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: She's an awesome hang. Like her podcasts are just great hangs.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: They're just good. And also– She's also one of those
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: guests who like you're a little scared of and it
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: keeps you on your toes.
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: Uh-huh.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Which is the right place to be with Kara.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Uh-huh.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: The other week I listened to a Kara Swisher interview
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: before I did a Hysteria podcast and I was afraid listening.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: I was like, she is coming for me and I
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: can't sidestep this woman.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: No, you cannot. She famously made Mark Zuckerberg sweat through
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: his hoodie on stage and he had to get up
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: and take it off. So that was tough.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: What a claim to fame. I would get that as a, like,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: collarbone tattoo.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Anyway, they talk about the war in Ukraine, how it's
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: being fought on the Internet, and why President Zelensky of
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Ukraine is such a compelling online hero. So subscribe to
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Offline with Jon Favreau.
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: So, Erin, we're taping this on Monday afternoon. The Florida
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Senate is currently debating this Don't Say Gay bill in
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: the legislature. That would prohibit the discussion of sexual orientation
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: and gender identity in Florida classrooms. It's part of this
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: broader trend where Republicans are focusing on laws targeting schools,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: targeting students. For example, Iowa recently became the 11th state
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: in two years to pass a law limiting transgender students'
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: ability to participate in school sports. And yeah, and it's
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: also like it's a deliberate political strategy. This guy, David Carney,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: who's an advisor to Texas Governor Greg Abbott, recently told
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: reporters that attacking transgender youth is a, quote, winning issue.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: That's so gross. When I saw that quote, I like retched.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: You're a horrible person. You're attacking children to score political points. Also,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: you know, Florida Governor Rhonda Stanton's spokeswoman said something similar
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: to horrible, tweeting that they don't say gay bills. Critics
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: should more accurately describe the bill as an anti-grooming bill.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: So basically saying people who don't like the bill, if
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: you're against the anti-grooming bill, you're probably a groomer was
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: her quote. So she's accusing people who don't like this
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: bill of grooming children.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Like a dog groomer? Oh, a child groomer.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like QAnon light. So disgusting stuff. We're both horrified.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to imagine, Erin, like just staying on
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: this don't say gay bill in Florida, like how this
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: kind of works in practice. The bill is supposed to
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: be targeted at primary school students. So that's supposed to
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: be kindergarten through third grade. But I guess the language
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: is written in such a vague way that it could
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: be interpreted more broadly. But what I'm trying to figure
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: out is like, okay. forbidding discussion of sexual orientation or
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: gender identity in this classroom in a way that isn't
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: age appropriate or developmentally appropriate. And if that happens, the
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: parents can sue the school district. Like, how does this
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: work in practice? Parents are going to sue a teacher
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: if a little kid is like, ask you a question
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: about what it means to be gay? It's crazy. Yeah.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: You know, when I hear about bills like this, I
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: think my first thought is why is it sex ed?
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: Why does it constitute something that's not age appropriate if
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: it's gay people but not if we're talking about straight relationships?
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: Because sex ostensibly occurs within the context of both. So
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: like why is one vulgar and one not vulgar? Second
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: thing is here's something I was thinking about as I
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: was kind of holistically looking at the show for today.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: You know, you can care about multiple things at once, right?
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: But you do have a finite amount of time. As
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: a state legislator, as a governor, you have a finite
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: amount of time as you are in charge of the
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: people of your state. And for every bill that gets
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: taken up, there's other bills that are not taken up.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: It's called the opportunity cost. And I feel like sometimes
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: when we talk about these bills, we should talk about them.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: We should get into what they're doing. We should also
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: think what aren't these state governments doing? So in Florida,
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: for example, there's a huge affordable housing crisis. What aren't
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: Republicans in Florida doing for actual Floridians? And how many
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Floridians are they actually helping by attacking trans kids?
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: And when you frame it that way.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Remember that apartment building that collapsed?
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: We should maybe work on that.
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: Also, there's insurance companies that are refusing to insure Florida
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: homeowners now because of the stuff, environmental stuff.
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: Climate change.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: The fact that the state is going to be underwater
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: in 20, 30 years. There's all of these things that
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: are affecting Floridians right now that state lawmakers could be
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: taking up, but instead they are taking this on. And
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: before we get into the nuts and bolts about what
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: the bill actually does, let's keep that in mind as
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: we talk. They're not They're not fixing the housing crisis
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: in Florida. They are not fixing the health care crisis.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: They have a shortage of health care workers in Florida
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: in an aging population right after a mass disabling event, COVID.
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: There are more people with long-term disabilities now than we
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: have any idea about. What is Florida doing about that?
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: Nothing.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Nothing.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: This is what the fuck they're doing. They're making it
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: so parents can sue school districts if teachers talk about
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: Heather has two mommies.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: And like, look, it's been a while since I've been
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: in primary school, but my memory of it is that
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: there's always some kid with an older brother or an
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: older sister who knows more about sex stuff than everybody else.
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: But it's probably not the full picture. It's probably inaccurate.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: But if like little, you know, Billy the bad kid
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: says that like, Gay people come from dinosaur eggs. The
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: teacher can't correct him in that moment. You can't have
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: a conversation. You can't like explain what the concept means
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: to a child. That is insane. But you can explain
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: the concept of sex itself to your point.
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: I mean.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: None of this makes any sense on the merits in
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: terms of like what a kid needs to know to
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: go through the world.
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Every child is evidence that their parents had sex. That's true.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Almost every child, unless it was an IVF situation.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: There's a miracle out there.
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: Immaculate conceptions all over Florida.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: We might be getting to the heart of it there.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: It's so stupid because— It's so obviously an attention grab.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: It's so obviously a ploy for Ron DeSantis to get
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: on Fox News without doing anything, without fixing anything, and
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: without making life better for anybody.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: No, making it a lot worse for low-paid teachers who
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: don't want to get sued.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: How much further can teachers be pushed? That's a question
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: I have in Florida. in Texas, they are just punching
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: bags for lawmakers. And look, this is me putting on
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: my feminism tinfoil hat. But I also think there's like
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: a sexism to it. There's a sexism to ordering a
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: profession that's 75% female to do the bidding of governments
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: that are, you know, 80% male, 80% straight white dude.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: And you're, it's, it makes me really mad. My mom
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: was a teacher for a really long time. She's a
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: high school principal. Now my sister's a teacher. Got a
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: lot of teachers in my family. Teachers are made of
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: tough stuff.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: They're good people. They care about their kids. Um, And
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: we keep beating up on them.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: And people like Ron DeSantis keep using them to score
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: points for people who probably did the worst in school.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Yeah. I mean, look, I had so
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: many friends who were teachers, and it's definitely the one
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: job that I know that I probably couldn't do well
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: at least because it requires so much work and so
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: much patience. And to your point about the opportunity cost,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: it is a political strategy. The Philadelphia Inquirer wrote a
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: piece about how 2022 is poised to become the year
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: of the most anti-LGBTQ legislation in the United States. And again,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: so much of it is targeted at kids. And that's
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: what's sort of dark about this. You have dozens of
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: state legislatures that are passing or working to pass laws
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: that would limit transgender students' ability to participate. or play
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: in sports or use bathrooms. You've got Texas investigating and
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: threatening to prosecute the parents of transgender and non-binary kids.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: And it's just so hard to step back and think, okay,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: let me look at what the past year we've been
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: talking about. It's been critical race theory in classrooms, and
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: now it's this stuff. And so what's clear is what
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Republicans want to do and talk about for the foreseeable
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: future is to target gay kids and And literally create
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: ways to punish their parents, punish their teachers. And they
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: think that's a winning political strategy. And that's just a
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: really dark kind of thing to know about the country
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: and their mentality for me.
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like behind this is the assumption
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: that everywhere is euphoria high school and these kids need
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: some help.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: But really, that's not the day-to-day lives of most kids.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And most kids that are LGBT....
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: It's hard enough to be a kid that's LGBTQ, especially
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: in a place that's inhospitable to them. It's rough and
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: it's gross. And I hate the fact that it's strategy.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: It makes me feel ill.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It's creating mental health problems for kids. I
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: have a friend who lives in one of these states
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: that's being targeted and has a non-binary child. And to
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: feel like you are doing everything possible for your kid.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: You are just trying to help them succeed and live
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: and thrive in this world. And all of a sudden
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the state is saying, oh, you could be investigated. Oh,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: you could be prosecuted for loving your kid. I mean,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: I just can't even imagine like the rage I would
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: feel as a parent.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: Right. And another thing that drives me nuts about this
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: is I was listening to a Florida public.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Radio broadcast about the Florida bill.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: And they had a Republican on the Florida public radio
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: broadcast talking about the bill.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: And he was downplaying it left and right. He was saying, oh,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: all this does is simply establish age appropriate, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: And these people are just giving it a bad faith read.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: The law is deliberately written to leave room for Republicans
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: to sell it to us, like used car salesmen. We're
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: just protecting kids, but leaving room for the worst possible interpretation.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: And like Democrats are right to bring up the worst. Hey,
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: this is what the door is open for. Yeah.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: And Republicans, they're so slimy. They are selling one thing
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: knowing that what.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: Is at the root of it is the potential to
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: be this Trojan horse of hate and harm. And one
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: other thing that I saw as I was getting ready
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: for the show is mandating that teachers report to parents
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: if children are choosing to use they, them pronouns or
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: pronouns that are different than the gender that they were
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: assigned at birth. That endangers kids. And, you know, there
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: was a Florida teacher. I was reading an interview with
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: a Florida teacher who said they didn't know of any
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: teacher that would do that. I don't think teachers will
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: comply if they know that they're going to put their
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: kids in danger by telling their parents that, hey, your
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: child is now they them.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: It's just they're not going to comply.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: It's just a horrible thing to force a teacher to do.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Last thing just on this issue was this quote from
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: DeSantis' spokesperson. That this bill is about grooming kids. It's
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: just so messed up and it's so dangerous to like say, oh,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: if you support gay rights, you're a pedophile. It's also
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: not remotely new in terms of a political strategy. I
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: was reading a book recently that talked about the fight
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: for gay rights in Florida in the 1970s. It was
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: this famous singer. You know Anita Bryant?
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: She was wild.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: She was a horrible person.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: She was the wacky horrible.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Awful, awful person. She was a spokesperson for the Citrus Council.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: She was like the face of big orange shoes.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: More like shitress.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: There you go. I like that a lot.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: So stupid.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: So Anita Bryant led this campaign in Florida to repeal
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: an ordinance that prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, right?
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Like something that just seems like it's obvious. And she
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: did this same exact demagoguery. She called it the Save
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Our Children campaign and accused gays and lesbians of trying to, quote,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: recruit our children. And what, you know, that history tells
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: me is We are fighting the same fight over and
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: over and over again. And it's not going to go away.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: And we're not going to grow out of this shit. Like,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: we just have to win. Yeah.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, time is a flat circle or a downward spiral.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Still circular, but just descending.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Where are you in that binary right now? Is it
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: a flat circle or a downward spiral?
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: I think it's a downward spiral at this moment.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel pretty spiraling, too.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: I feel like I'm spiraling not great. A quote that
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: I picked out. on as I was reading about this.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: I was reading about the Texas law. And this is
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: the thing that I found really insidious. There was a
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: lawyer who represents some of these families. And he said,
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: the number of people who have called me has exponentially increased.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: And the common threat is that everybody feels terrorized. So
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: regardless of whether or not these bills are going to
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: be enforced, be enacted, like if CPS is going to
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: investigate trans kids' families in Texas, or if teachers are
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: going to out their students to parents in Florida, the
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: fear and the terror that these people are experiencing is real.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: And it's almost like that's the point.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is almost like that's the point. I totally agree.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Another issue that, you know, has gotten a lot of
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: focus from conservatives is abortion rights and abortion access. And,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: you know, a lot of abortion rights activists believe that
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: by July, the Supreme Court will have overturned Roe versus
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Wade and the constitutional right to an abortion in the interim.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: A lot of Republican state legislatures are passing a flurry
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: of laws to make abortion illegal in as many ways
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: or circumstances as possible, right? There's the bills banning abortion
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: after 15 weeks, 12 weeks, six weeks, 30 days. There's
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: the Texas bounty law that would allow, you know, private
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: citizens to go after people who in the Uber driver
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: drives a woman to the location where she gets an
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: abortion trigger laws. Just to step back a bit. I mean,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: How would you describe the status of abortion rights in
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: the United States at this moment in time?
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Well, endangered, very much endangered.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: And, you know, the first episode of Hysteria recorded on
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: the day that Anthony Kennedy announced his retirement from the
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And that was in 2018.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: And on that day, Alyssa Mastromonaco and I said to
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: each other, Roe is over. Like it has been like
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: it has been on the road to over for a
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: long time. And I think that right now it's just
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: the oh shit moment. People are finally realizing that the
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: can cannot be kicked any further down the road. The
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: can is at the end of the road and this
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: is happening. The 15-week abortion bans that lawmakers are passing
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: in Florida and other places basically would put them in
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: line with Mississippi's proposed abortion law, which is the one
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: that is at the center of the case that we'll
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: hear about in the end of June or early July.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: And it's just, you know, it's once again women, once
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: again people who can get pregnant are being used as
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: bargaining chips in this culture war. I just wonder once
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: this happens, I really don't think it'll– I don't think
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: anything will ever be enough for these people. I think
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: that 15-week ban will happen and then 10 years from
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: now it's going to be a six-week ban that makes
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: it to the Supreme Court and then there's going to
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: be people going after IVF. Frozen embryos. You know, if
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: a child and an embryo are exactly the same, then
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: if a fertility clinic was on fire and a two-year-old
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: was trapped in there, you would save a tray of
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: frozen embryos instead of the child. Everybody knows that an
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: embryo is not the same as a human being, but
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: lawmakers would like to make laws acting as though they are.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: And it's just, the thing.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: That really makes me crazy about this is the same
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: places that are making it really difficult to access abortion care.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: People at the forefront of just shitting all over people
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: with uteruses. They're also the ones making it super inhospitable
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: to be a parent. Like what safety net is there
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: in Texas? You know, what safety net is there in Florida?
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: And people like Greg Abbott, people like Ron DeSantis are
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: still running on platforms of making life more difficult for
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: people who don't have abortions. So, and the state of Texas,
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: famously terrible foster system, like egregiously horrible foster care system
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: and child protective services. And so essentially, you know, we
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: have these laws that are building to an America where
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: children are born into situations where their parents can't possibly
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: take care of them. They either enter the foster care
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: system or are put up for adoption. And they become
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: just like fodder for even more like layers upon layers
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: of culture war.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it's gross.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: In the slippery slope argument you outlined, like there are
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: women who are being prosecuted or thrown in jail for
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: having miscarriages.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, there's no discussion of intent here.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: There is just penalizing people for things that happen in
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: their body that they can't control.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: And another thing we need to think about is the
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: number of hospitals in this country that are run by
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: religious institutions. and therefore can refuse care to people that
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: are seeking medical care. In Ireland, I want to say
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: six or seven years ago, a woman who was having
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: septic shock, I believe, because she was miscarrying, went to
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: a hospital. She went to a Catholic hospital, was turned away,
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: and died. Doctors don't want to get in trouble with
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: their employers by providing anything that could be construed as
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: abortion care. A religious employer probably has a right to
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: draw lines about what care they're going to provide or
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: not provide. Catholic hospitals won't provide abortion care.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: And another thing.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: Is that rural hospitals across the country are closing and
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: being consolidated and eaten up by these religious institutions. We
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: are moving toward a future where the only people, the
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: only women, the only pregnant people who will be able
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: to access abortion care are going to be affluent women
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: living in American cities, large American cities, or perhaps the
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: mistresses of Congress people.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah. Who was the guy who was dating, like,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: the ISIS bride? How is that a one-day story? Yeah,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: what about the guy— Republican congressman?
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: What about the Republican who was from, I think, Ohio
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: or Pennsylvania? Who got his mistress pregnant and tried to
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: force her to have an abortion. Or maybe it's Kentucky.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I lose count because they're such fucking hypocrites and
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: this stuff happens constantly.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: We should make like baseball cards of them.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: And trade them. Like remember this guy?
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Like Bush did with Saddam.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: What are we talking?
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: Are we talking about the guy that locked a woman
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: in a basement and sexually abused her and now he
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: wants to be the governor of Mississippi?
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Gritens.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Gritens.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Running for governor of Missouri.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: I would have a baseball card of him and you'd
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: be like, hey, check out Scott DeJarlane. He's the one
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: who tried to encourage his mistress to have an abortion.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: It's impossible to keep track of all these chuckle fucks.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: There's just no— the hypocrisy is bottomless. So, okay. So stepping
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: out of our spiral abyss, do you have a sense
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: of what the most effective way to fight back is?
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Are advocates pushing, you know, packing the court, federal legislation,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: state legislation, all of the above?
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, the— The task in front of us is
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: so immense that unless we break it down into pieces,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: it's going to feel overwhelming. People need to engage in
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: the local and state level with laws because a lot
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: of this stuff gets snuck in at the state level.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: For years and years, anti-abortion activists were trying to sneak
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: things into South Dakota, just trying over and over again
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: to pass like nutty bans, nutty bans. And then that
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: would make its way up through the court system and
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: then get slapped down. But They were always playing the
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: long game with it when it comes to this. I
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: think that we need to focus on state and local
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: politics more. I think we need to focus on national
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: politics around this less. And I realize the irony in
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: saying that on a show that is.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: About national politics. But I think like what the U.S.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: Congress can do and what the Senate can do and
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: what the president can do around.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: It is much less important.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: Immediately effective in the lives of more people. It's more
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: effective to deal with states and local governments. I also
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: think that it's really important for women who this matters to,
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: to run for something, not just vote.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: We have to start running for stuff.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Nancy Pelosi, I think, got her first elected office at 49,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: 47 or 49 years old.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: So women over 40, it's not too late.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: She did pretty well.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's done okay. She's done okay.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: I think we need to start thinking about running for things.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: I think we need to speak up. I think we
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: need to be honest about the role of abortion in
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: the lives of a lot of people who went on
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: to choose to have families later.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: And I think.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: That we have to be as serious and annoying about
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: this as conservatives have been.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: And that's, I mean, that's it. We're going to just
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: have to be a pain in the ass for the rest.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Of our lives.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: That last point you make, I think, is a real
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: thing that I don't know that a lot of people understand.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: It's like, if you are our age, you probably think
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: that there has been this right-wing, conservative, anti-choice movement in
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: this country forever. And the truth is, it's a pretty
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: recent thing. Sort of like new right Reagan era, super
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: religious abortion as the The issue that motivates them, that's
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: like a 70s, 80s thing, right? So for our side,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: two-thirds of Americans don't think that Roe versus Wade should
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: be overturned.
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Right? We have public opinion. Two-thirds of Americans think that
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: current abortion laws are too strict. So it just becomes like, okay,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: how do we turn that overwhelming opinion into political action?
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: And that's easier said than done, but it's hopeful.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, you also have to think about the distribution
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: of those people. I think this is half of a joke,
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: but it's actually half serious. People who live in expensive cities,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: go ahead and open Zillow on your phone. Take a
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: look at Fargo, North Dakota. I think it's a nice city. Fargo,
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: North Dakota is a nice city. And I will accept
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: no detractors of Fargo. It's got a cute downtown, good bones,
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: pretty houses. You can afford to live like a king
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: in Fargo. We need to mass migrate to smaller American cities.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Wyoming. We could turn that place so fast. Montana's on
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: its way.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: It's on its way. What about– how are you feeling
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: about Wisconsin?
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: I think Wisconsin just needs more people who care to
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: do more stuff.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: There are a lot of people who care who do
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: a lot. But I think there's just– right now the
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: seesaw is not in a good spot.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not in a good spot. Also, all these places
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: you're talking about, I bet they have lower taxes than
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: wherever you live currently.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, lower taxes.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Liberal audience.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Cheaper cost of living.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Sometimes the public schools leave a little to be desired.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: But you can go– You know, be the change. I'm
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: half joking, but I think that as it stands right now,
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: the majority of the two-thirds of Americans who support Roe
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: most ardently are major cities like L.A.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: L.A.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: Has 10 million people in it, which is bigger than
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: most states. So I just think that right now we're
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: sort of behind the eight ball until the ideology gets
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: a more equitable national distribution. I think it'll be hard
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: to win on it in elections.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Senate sucks.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so bad.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: So bad.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: What a dumb idea.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: What a dumb idea. You are right, though. I mean,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: savvy people, you, Alyssa, a lot of your listeners, like,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: I think, saw the writing on the wall in 2018.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I do wonder if there will be a moment where,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, maybe the last Supreme Court ruling
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: should have been that moment, but maybe the Mississippi ruling,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: if it goes the wrong direction and further eliminates the...
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: the right to choose, maybe that will wake people up.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: And then we'll have to rename hysteria Cassandra because we
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: were right.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: People didn't listen.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: All along.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: All along.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: We are going to take a quick break. And when
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: we come back, we will hear my interview with MSNBC's
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Mehdi Hassan about the war between Russia and Ukraine, the
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: treatment of refugees, the coverage, and how we can use
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: moments like this where we're talking about foreign policy and
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: focus on it in a real way to also talk
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: about US foreign policy and mistakes we've made and how
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: to do things better. So stick around for that. I
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: am thrilled to welcome back to Pod Save America, my friend,
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Mehdi Hassan. He is known as one of the toughest
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: interviewers in the business. So I'm a little nervous right now,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: but you can also catch him on Sunday night at
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: 8 p.m. on MSNBC. and on Monday through Thursday at
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: 7 p.m. Eastern on Peacock. Mehdi, thank you so much
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: for doing the show.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, Tommy. Good to be here.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: It's great to have you back. So the reason I
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: wanted to bring you on and talk with you today,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: because you and I started a Twitter conversation yesterday, and
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: then I thought to myself, what are you doing, Tommy?
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Nothing good ever happens on this place. And I thought
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: you and I could maybe model as human beings. Wise words. Yeah,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: how to have a conversation about.
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: A war and U.S.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Foreign policy and in a way that's actually productive. And
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: it's something I think you are uniquely good at. So,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: you know, where I'm coming from, you know, we would
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: talk about Ukraine and Russia today. All of us are
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: horrified by this war. It's clear that what's happening is
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: a war of choice. It's been made by one man,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin, who is lying and he's indiscriminately killing civilians.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Just horrific stuff. There's no question about who is the
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: aggressor here. But I do think that when you see
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: suffering like this and when there's an acute focus on Ukraine, Russia, NATO, whatever,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: It does give us a window to talk about the
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: thing we control, which is U.S. foreign policy and what
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: the international community might have done to try and prevent
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: something this awful from happening again or prevent it in
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: the first place. And so interestingly, Mehdi, there's sort of
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: two different versions of this conversation. Sometimes it's helpful. Sometimes
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: it's not spilling out on Twitter. One is the suggestion
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: that the West appeased Putin for so long and that
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: if we'd stood up to him earlier, he wouldn't be
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: in Ukraine right now. The other version is maybe NATO
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: expansion was too aggressive. Back in the day, it was
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: actually controversial to want to expand NATO past East Germany.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: And then in 2008, you start talking about including Ukraine, Georgia,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Balkan states have been added, right? So the conversation shifted
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: over time. So with the caveat that none of this
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: justifies what Putin is doing, and neither of us is
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: arguing otherwise, how do you think we talk about or
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: try to learn from what's happening today and prevent civilian
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: casualties and wars in the future.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: Great question. It's a big question. I would start off
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: with a few more caveats. Number one, I would say
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: that we're all horrified by the suffering on the ground
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: in Ukraine and nothing takes away from that suffering. And
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: I think what it reminds me when I see what's
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: going on is the number one, one of the number
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: one issues that's motivated me as a journalist and as
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: a human being over the last 20, 30 years is
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: war is hell. And anyone who says otherwise is bonkers.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: And one of the reasons I've taken some of the
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: political stances I've taken over the years is because I
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: think too many people think war is a video game,
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: think war is something that makes us feel good. War
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: is a tool of diplomacy and international relations and foreign policy.
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: And I just think, you know what? You see those
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: kids running across the border. You see those kids arriving
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: in train stations in Berlin and in Hungary. And you
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: think this is what war is. This is the reality
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: which many of us, thankfully, will never have to experience. firsthand.
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: So that's the first point, which is war is how.
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: That has to underlie everything. And then how do we
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: get to wars? How do we avoid wars? How do
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: we end wars? Huge issues, huge questions. And I think
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: one of the problems we have right now is social media.
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: To go back to your point about Twitter and the
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: health site that is Twitter, which I love to hate
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: and hate to love, is that It brings out the
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: worst in a lot of people when crises are happening.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: And I think we fall back into our tribes. We
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: fall back into our groups. We try and score points,
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: dunk on people. I'm as guilty of that as anyone else.
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: And I think the problem is then you lose a
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: lot of analysis. You get into a lot of bad
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: faith discussions. I think the good faith discussion that we
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: need to have is that there are multiple reasons why
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: people go to war. There are multiple reasons why wars
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: are started and multiple ways in which they can be ended.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: It's complicated. It's not easy. Anyone who thinks they have
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: the silver bullet on either side of the spectrum, as
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: you pointed out, anyone who thinks this is all because
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: we appeased Putin, or this is all because NATO expanded,
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: that's BS. It's just blatantly not the case. I think
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: we need to be a little bit more humble when
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: we look at foreign policy crises like this. We in
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: America in particular, who have messed up in so many
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: foreign policy crises, so many wars, I see people saying,
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: I see people online making the most definitive sweeping statements
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: about Putin or Ukraine or the left, whatever it is.
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: Some of them are the people who, We're not just
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: wrong 10, 20 years ago. We're wrong like last summer
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: about things like Afghanistan. So we need some humility all
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: the way around. And I think we need to find
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: a way to talk about this, which is not in
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: a kind of point scoring. One thing that's frustrating me, Tom,
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: I would say this is the outset. Please. Anytime you
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: try and talk about anything other than Ukraine, somebody shouts, whataboutism?
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: I've got that a lot. It's the most, you know,
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: I feel like it's the most popular word on social
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: media right now. To be clear, and I had to
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: say this in a tweet just for people listening, whataboutism
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: is when I say, let's not talk about case X,
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: let's talk about case Y. Let's excuse case X by
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: talking about how bad case Y is. Forget case X,
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: what about case Y? It is an attempt to deflect
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: from or distract from case X or justify case X
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: by looking at case Y. That is wrong. That is
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: not what a lot of us are doing. Some people
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: are doing that in bad faith, including the Russians. I
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: think what those of us in good faith are trying
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: to do, and my colleague Eamon Moyadine and I had
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: this conversation on our shows on Sunday night, which is
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: we're trying to say, let's Work on case Y so
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: that we have more credibility to deal with case X.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: Let's have consistency. Let me make a real world example
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: of that. Right now, there's talk of having Vladimir Putin
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: dragged before an international tribunal, having the Russians tried for
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: war crimes. That would be at the International Criminal Court, ideally.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: But Russia is not a signatory to that. And guess
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: who else isn't? We're not signatories for the Rome Statute.
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: How about we sign the Rome Statute? That's not whataboutism
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: to point that out. That's saying we would be in
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: a much better position to hold Russia to account if
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: we were party to the International Criminal Court. The ban
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: on cluster munitions brought in in 2010. That's something that
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: Russia has not signed and is allegedly using cluster munitions
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: in Ukraine. They deny it. But journalists, human rights workers
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: have identified cluster munitions. Again, America did not sign, has
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: not signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions. Wouldn't it give
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: us greater credibility to condemn Russia's behavior in Ukraine if
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: we were party to that? So I think when we
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: talk about these things that we could be doing better on,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: When we talk about other parts of the world where
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: we've done bad things, as long as it's not a distraction,
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: as long as it's part of an actual argument to
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: hold Russia together to prevent wars like this, I think
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: it's an important part of the conversation. And it frustrates
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: me that a lot of people are using whataboutism to
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: shut down any kind of moral discussion about what we
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: could be doing better.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there should be a moral discussion. And just for
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: listeners who don't know, a cluster musician is basically a
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: big bomb that breaks into lots of little bombs. And
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: then those sometimes explode. And sometimes they sit around for
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: years until some little kid picks it up and then
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: it explodes. So it's just a horrific tool of war.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: that indiscriminately kills civilians. You know, Matty, the other thing
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: that kind of worries me is like even a good
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: faith conversation about what the West or the U.S. could
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: or could not have done differently, it does something that
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: always worries me, which is puts the United States at
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: the center of almost every problem. And then we end
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: up assuming that all problems are ones that we could
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: have prevented or that we could solve. And the latter formulation,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: you know, look, I think we should look back in
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: history and question every decision that's ever been made. What
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: I worry about a little bit is what's going to
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: happen going forward, because there is clearly a lot of
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: momentum right now towards sanctioning Russian oil and gas. The
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: calls for a no-fly zone have so far been shut
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: down by both Republicans and Democrats, but I don't know.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: They're going to grow, and they're going to grow even
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: more when you see videos of innocent families trying to
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: escape Ukraine in so-called humanitarian corridors that are getting bombed.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: When you, I mean, you, you came from the UK, you've,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: you know, you actually report on more foreign policy issues than,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: than most journalists I know. How do you think about
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: the limits on US power and, you know, that, that
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: constant challenge of thinking about like, okay, where are we
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: going to do more harm than good?
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: It's a great question about the limits on American power.
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: What we are seeing right now is the limits on
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: American power. We cannot engage in a direct hot war
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: with Russia because Russia is a nuclear-armed nation. It's the
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: biggest nuclear stockpile on the planet. This is not Iraq.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: This is not Libya. This is not Afghanistan. This is
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: not Somalia or the tribal areas of Pakistan that you
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: can just send a few drones and kill people. Maybe
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: they're terrorists. Maybe they're not. This is a very different ballgame.
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: And I think a lot of Americans have been slow
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: to react to that. We're not used to that. There's
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: a whole generation of people who doesn't remember the Cold War,
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: that doesn't quite get what a no-fly zone is. There
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: was that poll the other day, Tommy, 74% of Americans
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: said they support a no-fly zone. And I kind of
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: joked online saying, how many of them actually understand what
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: a no-fly zone is out of that 74%? It's interesting,
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: in the UK, when they polled the British public last week,
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: but the polling company explained what a no-fly zone would entail,
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: shooting down Russian aircraft, maybe taking out anti-aircraft defenses on
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: the Russians. It was actually a plurality of voters that said, no,
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: we don't want a no-fly zone. So it's interesting when
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: pollsters do a bit more work in unpacking the question.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: But yes, the limits of American power are very clear
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: to people. To Joe Biden, a man who's been on
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: the scene for several decades, former chair of the Foreign
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: Relations Committee, the man who was around during the Cold
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: War when you and I were kids or not even born,
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: he understands that you cannot escalate this into a hot
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: war with Russia. And I think that's an important point
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: for us to understand in terms of the limits of power.
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: We have to live in the world as it is,
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: not as we want it to be. So when we say, well,
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: Russia shouldn't be allowed to do this stuff. Well, shouldn't
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: be allowed by who? There is no world police. And
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: this is what my slight frustration was in the run-up
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: to this conflict, which was, on the one hand, we
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: were saying to the Ukrainians, you know, Stand up for yourselves.
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: Don't let Russians bully you. But then are we going
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: to stand up? No, we're not going to fight. We're
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: not going to fight. It's a weird, weird, weird situation there.
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: And I understand all the reasons behind that. And I
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: think the limits of American power are very important to acknowledge.
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: I think you're right to say that there is a
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: faction of people that wants to blame America for everything.
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: It's interesting. It used to be that Noam Chomsky left
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: that was accused of doing that. And yet right now,
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: Noam Chomsky came out with a very blunt statement saying
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: that the Russian invasion is inexcusable. There's no justification. It's
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: a war crime. It's on a par with Hitler's invasion
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: of Poland. And yet you have the Candace Owens of
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: this world And the MAGA right say it's America's to
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: blame for this. I find that quite ironic now that
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: it's actually the right or the far right that's doing
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: the America's to blame for everything. Look, I agree with you.
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: America is not responsible for every problem in the world.
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: Of course not. In some areas, we are the main
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: driver of the problems, partly in the Middle East. In
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: a lot of Middle East crises, yeah, we are at
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: the center of it. But even not all Middle East crises.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: Take Syria, for example. The Syrian revolution was a lot
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: of kids rising up against Assad as part of the
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: Arab Spring, as part of multiple countries. Assad cracked down
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: on that. Long story short, it turned into a civil war,
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: turned into an insurgency. Some of the rebel groups we
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: then got involved in were awful. And I was one
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: of those who opposed arming those groups. I got attacked
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: as an Assad stooge for saying that. So this is
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: the problem. So Syria is an example of where the
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: limits of American power, we weren't going to go in
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: and topple Bashar al-Assad after the craziness of Iraq. And
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: what we thought we could do on the side, some
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: of us would argue, made things worse in some ways.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: And I look at Ukraine, and I hope, God forbid,
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: it turns into another Syria. People are talking about prolonged insurgency,
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: if a Russian occupation. What we do know about insurgencies is,
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: Whether they're successful or not, in the end, the civilian
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: population suffers massively. So that in Afghanistan, we see in
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: places like Kashmir, it's horrific. No one should want that
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: as any kind of ideal outcome or scenario. And I think, look,
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: when we look at the American role in this, I
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: think that we can't blame America for everything, obviously. I
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: think what we can do is, as I mentioned a
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: moment ago, is What can we do to make things
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: better at the margins? What can we do to change
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: the way we do things now? I'll give another example. Refugees,
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: a point I made on my MSNBC show on Sunday night.
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: We can't solve the UK. refugee crisis. This is on
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: our own, not at all. Europe can't even do it. 1.7
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: million people at the time we're speaking have fled their homes,
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: crossed the border. It's the fastest growing refugee crisis in
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: the modern history of Europe. You have to go back
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: to World War II for this kind of speed. To
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: put it in context for your listeners, in 2015, 1.3
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: million people at the height of the Syrian refugee crisis
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: applied for asylum in the EU. That's across the course
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: of 2015. This is 1.7 million in the course of
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: 12 days. So it's massive. What do we do about that? Well,
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: you know, one thing we could do is not just
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: give Ukrainians temporary status, as Biden has done, not just
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: take in more Ukrainians proportionately than other countries. But we
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: can actually change our refugee policy as a whole. Our
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: refugee policy has been shameful, even under Joe Biden. Record
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: low numbers. Look at Title 42 at the border. I'm
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: not sure how we can sit and lecture countries in
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: Europe about the need to take in Ukrainian refugees while
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: we keep a Trump-era rule called Title 42, a Stephen
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: Miller special, which basically blocks all asylum claims at our
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: southern border right now.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: It's disgusting.
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: That can't be in place while we lecture the rest
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: of the world on the need to take in Ukrainian refugees.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Look, I mean, point taken. Setting aside Title 42, though,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, over a million refugees have left. Ukraine is, what, 40,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: 44 million people? So you're likely to see that number double, triple, quadruple.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: We will see. You're right. I mean, the one area
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: where we have the most power, the most control, is
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: our ability to help refugees. Really, the only limit is
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: political will. And so it's interesting. Having been in government,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: you want to create and build support for policies or
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: things you're doing to help people, humanitarian relief, right? You
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: want stories about how the American taxpayer is helping this
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: innocent kid so you feel good about the money you're
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: spending as a person at home watching your show on Peacock, right?
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: I'm also, though, very mindful of the fact, and I'm
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: listening to people who are saying, okay, you know, we
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: are seeing this heartwarming treatment of Ukrainian refugees, but we
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: didn't necessarily see it as heartwarming treatment of Syrian refugees
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: or Afghan refugees, or frankly, like white refugees versus black
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: and brown refugees, Christian refugees versus Muslim refugees. And I'm
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: trying to think about how to have a conversation about that,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: that raises that inequity that tries to get us to
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: do better, but that keeps people like Wanting to be
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: a part of this broader effort to help people who
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: are suffering, right? Because like that is the acute need.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: It's just like getting everyone to realize that you need
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: to help out personally, like give some money, vote for
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: people who support refugees. Like how are you thinking about that?
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: I mean, you're right to raise that. It's something I
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: raised a couple of weeks ago when this thing was
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: kicking off, that the rhetoric right from the beginning, we
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: saw it from certain reporters at media organizations. We've seen
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: it from governments. I mean, the Bulgarian prime minister said
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: it very openly. These are not the same as the
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: people from Syria. These are people who look like us.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: These are Europeans. We saw it in the Spanish parliament
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: with the leader of the Vox party saying, these are
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: not invaders like the ones from the Middle East. So
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: they haven't, you know, they're not hiding the double standards.
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you saw the Danish government has
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: a very, has a rather disgusting law, which is called
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: the jewelry law, which they brought in for Syrian asylum seekers,
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: which is anyone who comes from the Middle East during 2015, 16, 17, 18,
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: had to sell any jewelry or valuables they had to
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: pay for their asylum claim. Wow.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Come on.
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: Kind of sick stuff. And guess what? This week, they've
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: said it won't apply to Ukrainians. I wonder why. How
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: come Ukrainians don't have to sell their jewelry? So the
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: double standards are there. They're blatant. You're right. How do
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: we solve that issue? I mean, I don't think we
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: can solve that issue unless we have the broader discussion
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: about race that no one in this country seems to
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: want to have these days, because it does fundamentally come
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: back to race. If you want to ask why it
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: is that we can take in Ukrainian refugees and not
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: Syrian refugees or Afghan refugees. The reason is very simple,
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: because the Islamophobic climate in this country that was fueled
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: for the past 20 years, both by a combination of
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: terrorist attacks by terrorist groups and right wing politicians and
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: some liberal politicians fueling Islamophobic myth is that we think
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: brown people are secret terrorists. They're coming here to kill
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: us or rape our women. Those are the tropes that
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: exist even in the liberal parts of the liberal imagination.
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: And therefore, there's no easy fix to say, well, we
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: need to treat these people all the same. No, we
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: can't because there's years of propaganda has gone into demonizing
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: refugees from Brown Place.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: That's the key point, right? Early on in the Syrian
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: refugee crisis, there were Greek fishermen who dropped everything to
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: go save lives, literally took their boats out, stopped doing
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: what they're doing, saved so many people that they were
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. A decade later, we
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: read about those same fishermen pushing those boats full of
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: refugees back into the water, right? Like horrifying, completely. So
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying is, We have a chance. We have
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: a chance to try to do something and intervene and
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: change policies or approve it or support these efforts in
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: the first instance while people are still feeling hopeful and
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: caring and optimistic. And like the demagogues have not had
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: the chance to rally support around the latter view of
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: the world. And I'm just like trying to think through
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: how to do that while we have this moment.
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: I mean, another word that people don't want to hear
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: because it's too woke is intersectionality. I mean, how do
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: we talk about, how do we bring together different crises,
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: different groups of people and say, actually, these are shared struggles.
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: These are common struggles. These are common fights. And the
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: villains in each case are very similar. And I think
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: that's why I've mentioned Total 42, because what about us
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: and blah, blah. No, it is, if we're going to
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: talk about borders and refugees, we have to start at home.
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: And at home, this is one of the vile things
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: that we are doing with refugees that we could help
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: on our border. So I think it is important that
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: we draw those connections and say, yes, your heart is bleeding,
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: rightly so, looking at the images of Ukrainian fathers having
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: to stay behind and fight and saying goodbye to their
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: wives and kids on buses and sending them across the
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: border into Poland. Horrific scenes. What do we do with
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: that anger, that upset, that sorrow, that solidarity? Because as
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: you say, the reality is political will is how much
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: refugees we can take in. The reality is Ukrainians are
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: pretty far away, relatively speaking. They are going to go
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: to the first countries, the neighboring countries. But we've got
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: people in our own backyard, quote unquote. who are fleeing
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: conflicts and violence who we don't help. So I would
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: draw that connection. And you're right. We need to have
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: the conversation about propaganda. You made the good point about
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: how things can quickly change. Even Afghans, Tommy, like a
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: lot of the Afghans last summer had a lot of
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: sympathy because they were seen as good Afghans who helped
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: NATO and helped the American military. Why are we not
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: supporting them? But that was very quickly weaponized by the
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: Fox News of this world to talk about, well, whatever...
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: What if terrorists come in, et cetera, et cetera. So, uh,
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: it is, you know, unfortunately, and I hate saying this
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: because all conversations come back to this. Those of us
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: who are on the progressive end of the political spectrum,
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: those of us who want to do more good in
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: the world who want to have a more, you know, uh,
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: ambitious political moral imagination always come up against the fact
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: that our opponents have a really well-funded and well-organized propaganda machine.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I invite you on to
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: ask you the most difficult, uh, biggest picture questions I
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: could possibly think of. Um, Last one.
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: How do we stop nuclear war? I mean, seriously, the
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: nuclear issue is the most worrying. People use that cliche
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: of keep you up at night, like literally keep you
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: up at night.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: It should keep you up at night. I mean, look,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you're Joe Biden, you are
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: probably thinking that the greatest good you could do, the
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: way you could help the most people or prevent the
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: most suffering is by preventing a nuclear war. That's just
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: the case here. But, you know, sort of in the
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: near term, Biden is reportedly debating whether to visit Saudi
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: Arabia to basically get Mohammed bin Salman, the sociopathic crown
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: prince of Saudi Arabia to increase global oil supply. He
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: reportedly sent a delegation to Venezuela over the weekend to
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: potentially talk about sanctions relief for Venezuela and get more
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Venezuelan oil on the market. Regardless of what happens with Russia,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: I actually think that the U.S. should be rethinking sanctions
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: towards Venezuela because talk about sanctions that have harmed the
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: civilian population and not led to changes in the government.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's just a failed effort. But the Saudi
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: visit and dealing with Mohammed bin Salman is a tough
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: pill to swallow. I know it is for you as well,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: but you know, look, there there's that priority. There's the
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: fact that this guy's a sociopath and there's also the
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: reality that gas prices are high. They're going to get higher. Um,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: it could hurt consumers. It could destroy Biden's chance of
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: getting reelected. How do you, what's your reaction to this
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: news that we might be going hat in hand to
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: the Saudis once again?
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: I mean, On the domestic political front, it's interesting you
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: had Joe Manchin, our coal-supporting Democrat and name-only senator, saying
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: over the weekend, oh, I think Americans would be willing
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: to pay more for gas to stand with Ukraine. Which
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: is funny, because his whole platform was to fight against inflation, apparently.
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: He killed every progressive bill on Earth to fight against inflation.
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: Now he's like, inflation, it's fine.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: It's also bullshit.
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: Russia. Such bullshit. Yeah. It is bullshit. And I think
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: I would love, in theory, to be in a world
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: where we say, yeah, we will pay gas, high gas prices,
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: to not have to import oil from Russia or Saudi Arabia.
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: Before I get to Saudi, just a point about Venezuela.
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: You're right. The suffering in Venezuela is massive. Again, we
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: could talk about, is America to blame? Maduro has to
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: take a huge share of responsibility. But America has to
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: take responsibility also for some of its misguided policies, both
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: towards Venezuela and the wider Central American world. But collective
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: punishment is not something I support. I've seen a lot
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: of people tweeting recently. Sensible, smart people say, well, it's
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: the Russian public. They're behind Putin, so they should suffer.
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: The American public was behind the war in Iraq at
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: one point. Does that mean ordinary Americans should suffer? That's
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: a horrible road to go down when you start blaming
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: innocent people, especially people who've been brainwashed by state-run media
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: for their actions of governments who break the law. And
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: Venezuelans have been suffering. And I think ending suffering is
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: the key. And Russians now, my big worry, Tommy, is
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: that our sanctions on Russia, while you can justify them
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: just from a practical point of view, what if they
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: are counterproductive? What if they lead to a Russian public
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: that is more nationalistic, more anti-Western, more aggressive, replaces Putin
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: with an even more nationalist anti-Western leader? When we talk
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: about the grievance of NATO, I mean, this is going
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: to be a whole new series of grievances. And very quickly,
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: I've got to say while I'm on the show, with you,
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: the whole NATO debate, very quick, we haven't talked about this.
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: There are people saying it's all to do with NATO.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: There are people who say it's nothing to do with NATO.
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: Sorry to be the boring person and say, I'm in
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: the middle. It's crazy to say that Putin is fighting
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: Russia now because of NATO. That's ridiculous. He's fighting because
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: he's Vladimir Putin. But to say NATO has nothing to
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: do with why we're here at this point is also
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: completely ahistorical and just silly. I just want to dispatch
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: with that. Saudi Arabia, yeah, I am someone who has
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: a lot of problems with our relationship with Saudi Arabia.
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: I'm old enough to remember when Joe Biden stood on
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: the debate stage and said, I will turn Saudi Arabia
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: into a pariah. And instead, now there's talk of him going,
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: Hat in hand, although I believe Jen Psaki denied there
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: are plans to do that. But that's why Axios was
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: reporting on Sunday. I mean, for me, again, sorry to
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: boil this down, big, big geopolitical questions to very simple
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: moral principles. But the idea that we say we're going
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: to stop important Russian oil because Russia is bombing Ukraine,
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: but we're going to substitute it with Saudi oil while
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: Saudi is bombing Yemen, something I'm not allowed to mention.
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: Because if I mention Yemen, people say, what about it?
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: It's not what about it. There's a war going on
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: in Yemen right now. It didn't stop because Vladimir Putin
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: invaded Ukraine. We should be able to focus on more
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: than one thing at a time. And I don't think
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: we should be giving MBS a pass for what is
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: happening in Yemen, nor should we have given him a
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: pass for what he did to Jamal Khashoggi. So I
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: think we need to reevaluate our entire relationship with Saudi Arabia.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: You still have puff pieces about MBS appearing in the U.S.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Media.
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: I find it bizarre that this debate right now about
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: Russian oil is not provoking more discussion about climate change,
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: renewable energy, some of the stuff that Joe Manchin killed
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: in some of that Build Back Better bill. This is
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: a reminder that we shouldn't be reliant on any foreign oil. oil,
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: not just Russian oil, but foreign oil from a lot
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: of autocrats and autocracies, because that's unfortunately where a lot
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: of the oil tends to be. How about we use this, again,
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: to go back to my point right when the interview began,
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: to try and use this crisis to do something good
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: at home and fix something we haven't fixed at home,
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: which is our reliance on foreign oil?
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look, in a rational world, this would jumpstart in
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: a big way our investment in renewables. It might also
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: jumpstart a rethinking or a relook at nuclear power, although
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: the Russian attack on a nuclear power plant showed the
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: downside risk there as well. Um, that said in the
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: near term, if I was like a, uh, like hack
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: political advisor in the white house right now, or any
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: political advisor in the white house, not a hack, I
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: don't mean to insult them. I would be saying to
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden, the number one threat to your reelection is
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: oil prices. And we have to do everything we can
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: to get them down. I would love to say though,
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: that the path to doing that would be to get
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: back into the Iran nuclear deal and get a bunch
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: of Iranian oil back onto the markets. Although I know
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: that would be controversial. as well.
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: The Iranian nuclear deal could now be a consequence, could
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: now be a cost to this Russian invasion too, because
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: without the Russians at the table, without Russians doing that deal,
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: that could be gone too. And then we could be
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: talking about nuclear. I mean, there's so much fallout from
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: this ridiculous man in Moscow's invasion of Ukraine. It's hard
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: to quantify.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: It's hard to quantify. And the real challenge is ahead
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: of us, especially when it comes to global food prices,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: wheat shortages, et cetera, et cetera. Um, Mehdi, I, uh,
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you giving me so much time today.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: I know you're a busy man and, uh, thank you again,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: but everyone should check out your show on MSNBC and
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: on Peacock. Uh, it's, uh, it's a fantastic show. And
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: it's also, you cover international stories that a lot of
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: people don't cover. And I always really appreciate that about you.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: So thank you.
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: Appreciate that. And, you know, it's times like this when
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: you're reminded of why we cover those international stories in
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: the quiet times, because when it gets busy like now,
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: you kind of understand how we are all interconnected. One
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: last thing I'd say to your listeners is, let us
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: use this crisis to think about how we could be better,
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: how we can change things about the way we do things,
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: rather than just retreating into a kind of jingoistic, rah, rah, rah,
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: West versus Russia bubble. That would be the worst road
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: to go down. Yeah.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Let's not, like, do the Freedom Fries thing and, you know, start...
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: bomb like what is someone like smashed up russia house
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: a bar in dc like that's not gonna help us
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: guys ridiculous yeah let's.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: Not do that okay metty what is up thanks tommy.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: Thanks my friend okay aaron uh it's been a serious
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: episode talking about serious stuff yeah so we're going to
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: close out the show by talking about something very stupid
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: which is the ongoing battle between Republicans and technology. There's
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: a two-part war, two fronts, if you will. The first
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: one is being fought on Zoom. So over the weekend,
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: President Zelensky, again, the president of Ukraine, he's holding a
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: video conference with members of Congress to literally ask for
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: military aid, literally from his bunker in a war zone.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: And he had to stop his presentation and ask Republican
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Senator Rick Scott to mute his mic. Part one of this, sorry.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Part two was then Senators Marco Rubio and Steve Daines
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: tweeted out screenshots of Zelensky during the video conference, despite
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: specifically being told not to by Oksana Markorova, the Ukraine's
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: ambassador to the U.S. So for security reasons. I guess
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: my question is, we've been doing Zoom for like two years.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: You can't figure out mute, Rick Scott?
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: I mean.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Also, like, I just wish one of them
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: would have turned into a cat. That would have been
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: a little bit.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: I'm not a cat. You know, a filter would have
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: been that would have been great.
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: But I do want to thank President Zelensky or whoever
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: runs against Rick Scott for Senate should thank President Zelensky
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: for that incredible soundbite.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Can you please mute her? Yeah.
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: Rick.
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: Rick.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Just just beautiful. Put it over. Put it over
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: an ad of Rick Scott looking like a googly eyed goon,
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: which he is.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: He is really good. I mean, also, like another thought
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: I had, like you, if you walked in here, said
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: gun to the head, describe what Rick Daines looks like.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: Steve Daines. Sorry.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, Rick Danes. I was picturing like a NASCAR driver,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: but Steve.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: I was thinking like Ric Flair. I'm a goner in
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: that scenario. I wonder if there's a chance that he's
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: a made-up identity and it was just Vladimir Putin on
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: the call. Your thoughts?
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: Possibly, but have you ever seen that website, This Person
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: Does Not Exist? Okay, after we get done recording, I'm
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: going to show you. It's all computer-generated faces of people
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: that don't actually exist. I think Steve Daines may be one.
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: Of those people.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: I love that. Just AI faces.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: AI faces and they look real. Unless you look at
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: their ears, then you can tell it's something as well.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: It's always the ears. Why is it the ears?
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: I don't either. I think the AI just kind of
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: gets fucked up on ears.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk is wrong.
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: Well, check out Steve Daines' ears. Any constituents of Steve Daines.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Because if they're fucked up, he's not real.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: He's not real. That's a good tip. Jake Tapper interviewed
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: Marco Rubio on Sunday. And he asked him about his tweet.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: And like why he tweeted a picture of Zelensky when
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: the Ukrainian ambassador said, please don't do this for security purposes.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: And Marko said, well, first of all, she said that
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: like 30 minutes into the call after I'd already done it.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: Just so funny to me because maybe ask first. I
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, it makes me think, okay, on one hand,
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: you know, these elected officials love to talk about how
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: important they are and how they're in these important briefings
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: and ostensibly taking in this very sensitive and important information.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: And that's why we spend our tax dollars, like, making
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: sure they're protected and safe, you know.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Security and stuff.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: But also, like, does Marco Rubio listen ever? Is he
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: just sitting there drawing that unending, like, S chain thing
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: that we all drew in middle school instead of paying attention?
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: Is he practicing his signature like he's an NBA player?
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: He's the Republican head of the Intelligence Committee, too. Like,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: you would think he would just think, maybe don't tweet
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: this one.
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, look, it's ironic for me to
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: be making fun of him. I am. My notes are
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: a printed out email.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: I like that.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: Which is ironic.
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: But I admit my tech shortcomings. I'm not going to
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: try to, like, do some crazy tech. Also, like, these guys,
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: of course they're going to tweet out a picture of
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: the Ukrainian president because they want to feel like big shots.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: And that is at the root of all of their
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: actions politically. They just want to be fucking big shots.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they got to be in the middle of the story.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: It's deeply annoying.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: This story made me think about in 2008, We ran
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: this TV ad that was like, John McCain doesn't know
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: how to use a computer. John McCain doesn't know how
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: to use email. And it was a not remotely subtle
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: attempt to call him really too old for the job.
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: And like over the years, there's been some things in
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: politics I regretted and some I didn't. I always kind
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: of was like, I wish we could have had that
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: one back. It was a little petty. This is making
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: me rethink it. I kind of think there should be
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: like a proficiency exam for technology. Yeah. period, for lawmakers.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: You should have to have a license to use Twitter.
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: If you have a blue check, you got to pass
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: your exam and renew it every year like an old
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: man with bifocals.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: You got to keep passing.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: Or else you're going to just be tweeting RT if
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: you agree all day long and like everyone's going to
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: hate you.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: I know so many people, I don't know if this
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: is true for you, that I like worked with or
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: was friends with, who I just have watched lose their
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: minds on Twitter, just become the worst versions of themselves.
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I know you're, this broke you. It really
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: did in a real way.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: It's a misery machine. It's a real misery machine.
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: I've been trying to use it less because it makes
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: me sad and TikTok has dancing on it, which is,
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: you know, like, which one am I going to pick?
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: Obviously, I'm going to pick the dancing one. Yeah. And
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: people that being funny and stuff.
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: But yeah, it just, I think it really brings out
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: the worst in people and it makes you think that
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: your world is so small that it fits into your
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: hand and this is your whole world and the responses
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: you're getting. This is how people feel about you. And
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: it can be that if you spend all your time
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: in it, but you're opting to spend all your time.
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: You're opting to become a tiny little Twitter man.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: And you don't have to.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: No, you don't.
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: You can put your phone away and do other things
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: and no one will miss you. Nobody misses anybody who
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: goes off Twitter.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: No.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: I'm always like, good for them. Or like, good, fuck you. Like,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: It's the world's smallest, lamest chat room. Just the juxtaposition
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: of these silly senators taking photos of their laptops while
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Zelensky's like in a t-shirt like begging for stinger missiles
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: in a war zone. It just like couldn't be.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Couldn't be more clear. It was like the most, it's
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: such a weenie move.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: It really is. Um, The other technology story that caught
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: our eye was Donald Trump is having some tech problems.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: You may have missed it, Aaron, because I kind of did.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump rolled out his own social media site for
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: like MAGA types. It's called Truth Social. It apparently went
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: live on February 21st. But I guess it was a
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: soft launch because there's, I guess, a waiting list and
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: like hundreds of thousands of people are kind of stuck
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: on it. And so Ruby Kramer from Politico is very funny,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: very dry reporter. wrote a piece a couple days ago
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: about how she finally got an invite to the site
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: like 11 days in. She makes an account. She goes on.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: She's like looking for engagement and it's just a ghost town.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: No one is on it. Who's the social media guy
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: who was like his golf caddy?
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I can picture his red, red face, but I
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: forget his name.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: But I know who you're talking about.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: That guy is posting a lot, but like Donald Trump's
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: not even on it. No one.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: Dan Scavino.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: Dan Scavino.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: Dan Scavino.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: Dan Scavino.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: Question.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: Do you think it was a mistake for Donald Trump
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: to put famously stupid former Congressman Devin Nunes in charge
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: of his social media site.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: I am enjoying the show. Um, I think Devin Nunes is,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: is a real, real dumb idiot. And, uh, since he
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: left Congress, there's been a really heated battle for Congress's
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: dumbest bitch. Um, The rankings change week to week. Is
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: it Louie Gohmert? Is he the dumbest bitch in Congress?
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: Is it Jim Jordan? Is he the dumbest bitch in Congress?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: He's got no jacket on ever.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: It's funny. Most of the dumbest bitches are men.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: They're all men.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: They're all men.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: Well, you get some MTG. I don't know where she lands.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: She did something.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: Who even knows anymore? She's functionally a person who runs
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: around yelling.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: She's not on any committee. She has nothing to do.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: She's not really functionally a Congress person. She just raises money.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: You know why she's maybe not dumb? It's because she
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: has managed to make all of us remember her name
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: and get a lot of attention. And I don't remember
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: anyone else's name, frankly. And so she's kind of beaten
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: on these clowns.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: My phone... corrects her name to Madgery. Like, I don't know.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: M-A-D-G?
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: No, M-A-J-O-R-I-E. Madgery. I've never used the word Madgery in
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: my life.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: My phone always does that. Autocorrect's the wrong thing.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: To a name that isn't a name.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: But anyway, Devin Nunes, famous possible farmer, because it's not
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: even been established that he really was that involved in
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: his family's farm.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: He's allegedly a farmer. One thing I really loved about
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Ruby Kramer's piece is was how she's kind of spelled
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: out what this thing is.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: And it sort of reminded me of like Devin Nunes
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: had a big report due and he didn't do any
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: of the work.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: And then the very last minute, he just like.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: Copied the Wikipedia article and changed all the adjectives and
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: then like rearranged some of the sentences because it's Twitter.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: Twitter.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: It's Twitter, but instead of tweet.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: It's truth.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: It's the truth.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: And retweet is re-truth. Re-truth.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: Re-truth thing.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: If you have any problem with speech, you cannot say
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: that fast. I have to pause.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: Re-truth.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: It's so silly. It is so aggressively silly.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: I know. I know it's so small, but these are
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: the things I need right now. The Daily Beast had
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: a story about how apparently Trump is calling up his
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: buddies and just shouting about how bad the website is.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's true. She's surrounded by liars
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: who lie to the news outlets, but I love it.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it, too.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: I think that at some point, though, maybe somebody who
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: is close to him can be convinced to just hand
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: him an old-style, like, phone receiver that's not connected to
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: anything and be like, this is your phone.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: And then, like, put him in.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: And I, like, this was something that people would say
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: when he was on Twitter. Like, give him a fake
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: Twitter that he can just send ridiculous things off and
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: be like, yep, you're sending tweets, Donnie.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: You're doing it. You're tweeting. But he's just, like, tweeting
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: into nothing. So maybe this, like, truth social is.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: The fake Twitter of everybody's dreams before he got kicked off.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good call. SNL had a skit recently
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: where they had the Fisher-Price- A skit.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: You know who hates it when you call them skits?
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 5: Who?
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: People who write the skits.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, what should I call them?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: Sketch.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: A short sketch.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: It's a sketch comedy. It's not skit comedy.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: What was that? The State?
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: That was a great sketch comedy show.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: I want to dip my– anyway. They had a great
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: sketch where they had the Fisher-Price podcast kit for white guys.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: And it's a full-on podcast kit where you can say
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: whatever you want. You can rap all the lyrics of
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: all your favorite songs, but it doesn't record anything, so
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: you don't get canceled.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: It's very funny.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: That is essentially what this is for Donald Trump because
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: who's going to be on a waiting list several hundred
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: thousand people long?
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: Unless it's like for an organ.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: For something good.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for an organ.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: For a liver.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: For a front row seat tickets to Celine Dion's show
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: in Vegas.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: I've heard... My friends went to my girlfriend's here. They
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: both just wept the whole time. They said it was
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: the best thing they'd ever seen.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: I would absolutely weep. I kind of want to see
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: Katy Perry's show. I think Riri Chaney went to see that.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: I would definitely go.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: A stereo panelist, Riri Chaney. Yeah, I think that this is...
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: I'm enjoying the failure of truth social. I think.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: One thing that maybe Donald Trump is realizing now is that,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: and this is kind of Shakespearean in how funny it is,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: he's a person that has always tried to do the
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: thing that would get the most attention and get people
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: to pay attention, you know, in the largest numbers tuning
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: into him. But what is getting the most attention is
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: his failures. People love to watch him fail, but he
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: also hates to be a loser. So he has a
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: kind of bittersweet choice to make. Like do I keep
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: failing on the– do I keep like belly flopping and
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: getting attention for losing and have people tune in in
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: droves because they love to see me suck?
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: But then I'm a loser.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: That is a conundrum. Yeah. That's tough. I mean one
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: serious thought or question I do have is you have
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: these like so-called free speech platforms. You got Gab. You
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: got Getter. You got Rumble. Rumble. Now, I just really
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: do wonder whether a literal echo chamber like that, where
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: it's like, this is the MAGA platform for MAGA people.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're similarly tortured by the internet. Like, can
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: that exist? If there is no one to troll, can
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: a site full of trolls exist happily? I wonder if
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: all of these things aren't doomed to failure.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: No, it's like in The Lion King when the Pride
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: Lands are taken over by the hyenas. It's essentially that. Like,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: what are they going to do? Like, there's no more
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: food left.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: Who are they going to steal food from?
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. They're just going to turn on each other.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not Simba, not Nala.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: Nala is the girl lion.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: She's a girl. Hannah's cat growing up was Nala.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: Oh. That's why I remember that.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: That's cute.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: That's a cute cat. Okay, well, that's all I had
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: on Republicans versus technology. I don't know if there's any
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: stories I missed that you saw out there.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: No, no, but I am enjoying Trump continuing to. You know,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: this Truth Social thing, I thought his app was launched recently.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: Several times ago.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: Me too.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, this is the app. Okay. And it's failing. Oh,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: this is the app.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: Okay. Oh, it's still failing. Lovett did want me to
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: bring up the time when Ted Cruz liked incest porn,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: I think. Some sort of weird porn on 9-11 on Twitter.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: Wait, it was on 9-11? It was on 9-11. Never forget, indeed. Oh, man.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: Ted Cruz, I feel like, has a kink. a wrongest
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: wrongness kink. He loves to just be someone that people dislike.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: Well, back to your point about like loving to be
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: seen sucking and failing Ted Cruz. I mean, he just
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: loves to just get humiliated.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he really doesn't.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: And, you know, for, you know, all of the ways
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: that Donald Trump's political career has, uh, exceeded, uh, Ted
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: Cruz is. Ted Cruz is really maybe the model that
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: he's going to have to follow if he wants to
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: continue to be in the public eye.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: People will tune in to watch him fail.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: Bigly. Bigly. Bigly. Well, that makes me sad.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that's all we got for today. Thank you, Aaron,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Tom Brady, for stepping in.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not really enjoying Florida as much as
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: it seems that I am.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just the taxes. Yeah.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: You did get drunk on margaritas and throw that trophy
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: off a boat that one time.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: You know what?
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: He won me over.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: He won me over at the end of his career.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: And it was Belichick that I didn't like.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: I know. It was such a human moment. He's just
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: absolutely plastered throwing trophies off a boat to Gronk, which
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: is just so funny.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: He's earned it. He's truly earned it. I wanted him
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: to play until he was like 50 after that.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: It's just psychotic. Also, we won't talk about how the
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: part of the story where Tom Brady replaces Drew Bledsoe
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: and then Drew Bledsoe never really plays again. But, you know, John, John.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: Feel better. We love you. Thank you also to Nettie.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: Hassan for joining the show. And I'll talk to you
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: guys next week.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 5: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 5: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 5: Our producer is Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez is our
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 5: associate producer. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 5: Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Sandy Gerard,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 5: Hallie Kiefer, Madison Holman, and Justine Howe for production support.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 5: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim,
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 5: and Amelia Montuth. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 5: slash crookedmedia.