Latest / The Uplifters / #143: What Life-and-Death Courage Teaches Us About Daily Bravery in Midlife

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#143: What Life-and-Death Courage Teaches Us About Daily Bravery in Midlife · The Uplifters

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Welcome to the Uplifters podcast where every week I get the
1:11
great privilege of
1:13
SPEAKER_01: talking to a woman who's doing big,
1:14
SPEAKER_01: brave things in the world.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Today's guest is going to really help us put this in perspective.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: If you know her work,
1:21
SPEAKER_01: you know she writes about great,
1:23
SPEAKER_01: big courage with a capital C,
1:26
the kind of life and death courage that most of us don't face
1:31
either even in the
1:32
SPEAKER_01: course of our lives perhaps or certainly
1:33
SPEAKER_01: not very many times, and it is yet the focus of so much of her work.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: And the fact that she's doing this work,
1:40
SPEAKER_01: though,
1:41
SPEAKER_01: takes the little courage,
1:43
the daily courage that each of us practices and builds over the
1:46
course of millions
1:49
SPEAKER_01: of decisions in our lives.
1:51
And so my hope today is to explore with her how great big
1:56
courage informs the other
1:58
SPEAKER_01: little tiny daily moments of courage.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: Today's guest is Sahara Dallajani,
2:04
SPEAKER_01: the author of the exceptionally beautiful book,
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Children of the Jacqueline de Tri.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: It's one of those books that honestly,
2:14
SPEAKER_01: as soon as I finished it,
2:15
I wanted to go reread it again so that I could lap up every
2:20
last morsel of language
2:21
SPEAKER_01: and intimacy and
2:23
and connection and more deeply understand these rich human
2:29
characters that she's
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SPEAKER_01: created,
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SPEAKER_01: living little acts of courage in times of great big courage.
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SPEAKER_01: The book is internationally acclaimed.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: It was translated into 32 languages,
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SPEAKER_01: published in more than 75 countries,
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if that gives you any sense of the desire for this book that is
2:49
out there.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: I think I'm
2:50
Probably not the only one who was like,
2:51
let's read it again and soak up more of it.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: Her second novel, For Every Person You Kill, arrives in spring of 2027.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: And I am just so,
3:03
so grateful to have this time with you to talk about a topic I
3:08
feel like you know
3:09
SPEAKER_01: in some ways more intimately than most.
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SPEAKER_01: So Sahar Talajani, welcome to the Uplifters podcast.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for that introduction.
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I'm really honored and happy to be here speaking about courage
3:24
and uplifting with you.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: So to start things off,
3:29
maybe set the stage for us by telling folks who haven't read
3:33
your first novel a
3:34
SPEAKER_01: little about it.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Since there is a somewhat autobiographical thread to it,
3:40
SPEAKER_01: it will help us understand just the setting of
3:46
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
3:47
So the book talks about the post-revolutionary political
3:52
persecution in Iran after
3:54
SPEAKER_00: the 1979 revolution,
3:56
SPEAKER_00: which ousted the Shah.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: There were many people who were participants in that revolution.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: So the sort of the party,
4:04
SPEAKER_00: the Islamic party that came out of it victorious,
4:07
SPEAKER_00: as we now say,
4:07
SPEAKER_00: hijacked the revolution,
4:09
SPEAKER_00: wasn't the only force.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: There were many,
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SPEAKER_00: many other forces,
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SPEAKER_00: political forces,
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social forces who had been fighting against the regime of the
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Shah for many years.
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SPEAKER_00: So it was a people's revolution in so many ways.
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SPEAKER_00: My dad was a student at the time.
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SPEAKER_00: My mom was working.
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And they were both migrants from other parts of Iran who were
4:30
now in Tehran,
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SPEAKER_00: who had migrated to Tehran.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: So they were active during the revolution against the regime of the Shah.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: And then they sort of continued their activism,
4:40
SPEAKER_00: political activism,
4:41
because they were like leftist progressive activists after the
4:45
revolution because
4:46
SPEAKER_00: they realized,
4:47
SPEAKER_00: okay,
4:47
SPEAKER_00: so what we're getting is not really what we have fought for.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: And then the Islamic regime,
4:53
SPEAKER_00: as it took power,
4:55
SPEAKER_00: and another thing that happened,
4:56
SPEAKER_00: which is very fundamental,
4:58
SPEAKER_00: was that the war with Iraq broke out with Saddam attacking Iran in 1980.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: So it was just a year after the revolution.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: So you can imagine it was very fragile.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Just a year had passed.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: And it was a war that lasted eight long years.
5:13
It was like one of the longest and most devastating wars in the
5:18
region and in the
5:19
SPEAKER_00: world ever since World War II.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: with like more than a million casualties on both sides.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: So my parents were active politically.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: And in 1983,
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there was this like last wave of arrests and imprisonments of
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political activists
5:34
SPEAKER_00: from all the other sort of political thoughts.
5:37
And this sort of persecution had already started after the
5:40
revolution in 1980.
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SPEAKER_00: But it just like everybody who was still out there was arrested in 1983,
5:47
SPEAKER_00: including my parents and my uncle and my aunts.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: Like everybody was very active in my family politically.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: And my mom was pregnant at a time with me,
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SPEAKER_00: which led to her giving birth to me in Evin Prison,
5:59
SPEAKER_00: which is this notorious prison in Tehran.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: And so I stayed with my mother for about like a little more than a month.
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SPEAKER_00: And then my grandparents raised me,
6:09
SPEAKER_00: my brother,
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SPEAKER_00: who was two at the time,
6:11
SPEAKER_00: who was already staying with them.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: And then another cousin,
6:14
SPEAKER_00: because my aunt,
6:15
SPEAKER_00: my mom's sister,
6:16
SPEAKER_00: was also pregnant at the time,
6:17
SPEAKER_00: who was also born in prison,
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SPEAKER_00: my cousin.
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SPEAKER_00: So there were these like three grandchildren,
6:21
SPEAKER_00: two of them newborn who were being raised by my grandparents,
6:25
SPEAKER_00: my mom's parents.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: And so this was sort of the basis of Children of the Jacaranda Tree.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: So basically the circumstances in which my generation lived
6:36
SPEAKER_00: was born and how,
6:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
6:39
SPEAKER_00: it's about life inside prison,
6:41
SPEAKER_00: but how also that imprisonment doesn't necessarily only,
6:45
SPEAKER_00: of course,
6:46
SPEAKER_00: mainly and fundamentally hurts the people who are inside,
6:50
SPEAKER_00: but also how it affects everybody's life outside the prison.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: And it sort of,
6:56
SPEAKER_00: in that first part of the book,
6:57
it ends with the 1988 executions because 1988 was the last year
7:02
of the war with
7:03
SPEAKER_00: Iraq,
7:04
SPEAKER_00: between Iran and Iraq after eight years.
7:06
And the Islamic regime and the Supreme Leader Khomeini at the
7:10
time sort of thought
7:11
SPEAKER_00: that this was,
7:13
SPEAKER_00: as sort of a ceasefire,
7:14
SPEAKER_00: it was being brokered by the UN.
7:17
They sort of thought that this was their last chance to get rid
7:20
of any political dissent
7:22
SPEAKER_00: and any opposition to the Islamic Republic.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: So in a matter of a few months,
7:27
SPEAKER_00: in the summer of 1988,
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SPEAKER_00: they executed thousands of political prisoners who were still in prison.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: My parents had already,
7:35
SPEAKER_00: they were lucky enough to have already been released,
7:37
SPEAKER_00: but my uncle,
7:38
SPEAKER_00: my dad's brother,
7:39
SPEAKER_00: was still in prison and he was executed.
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SPEAKER_00: And he was the father of that cousin who was also born in prison.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: And so that was the first part.
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And the second part of the book sort of talks about all these
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children born in
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those years and how now they're in their 20s and how they're
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sort of deciding their
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SPEAKER_00: own fate and not only their own fate,
8:01
but the fate of their country and how they're deciding to be
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sort of participant in
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SPEAKER_00: what is happening in their country,
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both politically and socially and personally and what it means
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to be a child of
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SPEAKER_00: that sort of tragedy and still try to fight.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: fight for what your parents sort of started.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: as you say that,
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SPEAKER_01: it brings up for me,
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SPEAKER_01: again,
8:23
SPEAKER_01: these big questions of courage,
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SPEAKER_01: because I think on one hand,
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SPEAKER_01: it had been really scary to say,
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SPEAKER_01: my family endured all of these unbelievable challenges,
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SPEAKER_01: and now I'm going to
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take on the responsibility of telling those stories in a way
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that does them
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SPEAKER_01: justice,
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SPEAKER_01: both to the systemic losses that happened,
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but also to the very individual losses of life and family and
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to humanize in a way
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SPEAKER_01: that we can all see our own love and life in these stories.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: And so as you asked yourself that question,
9:03
SPEAKER_01: and then I'm sure side by side saying,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: what did they fight for if not my ability?
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SPEAKER_01: to be able to tell these stories.
9:11
What were those conversations like with yourself as you set out
9:15
to tell the stories?
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
9:17
I can only say that these conversations with myself about this
9:22
after the book was
9:23
SPEAKER_00: out,
9:23
SPEAKER_00: because while I was writing Children of the Chakranjitri,
9:26
SPEAKER_00: I talked to my parents,
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but I didn't really think of the aftermath of the book and the
9:30
meaning of writing
9:31
SPEAKER_00: about this book.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: I just thought like, we need to really tell these stories.
9:34
These are like kind of interesting and it's part of our history
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and so on.
9:39
And then after the book was out,
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I just all of a sudden realized,
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oh my God,
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what I did.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: was also in some ways betray secrets because when we were growing up,
9:52
SPEAKER_00: my parents,
9:53
SPEAKER_00: we were still in Iran.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: I was 12 when we left.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: And when we would go to school,
9:57
SPEAKER_00: like,
9:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
9:57
SPEAKER_00: my parents,
9:58
SPEAKER_00: of course,
9:58
SPEAKER_00: they had been released,
9:59
SPEAKER_00: but the society,
10:01
SPEAKER_00: not only the,
10:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:01
SPEAKER_00: political system,
10:02
but the society also sort of considered us and my family and
10:06
what they have done,
10:07
SPEAKER_00: like,
10:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:08
anti-revolutionary and like against this regime that we've
10:12
ought to have and so on.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: So
10:14
SPEAKER_00: We were like pariahs.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: Like there was this hostility towards us.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: That's why we had to always,
10:19
like my parents had always told me like never to talk to
10:22
anybody about this outside
10:24
SPEAKER_00: of,
10:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:25
SPEAKER_00: our home and our community.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm never at school, to friends, to teachers, to nobody.
10:32
So and then,
10:33
of course,
10:33
when we left to California,
10:34
none of that,
10:35
you know,
10:35
was valid anymore.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: But we didn't really talk about this stuff anymore because,
10:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:39
SPEAKER_00: geographically you were so far.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: Nobody knew anything.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: Nobody asked anything.
10:44
So we just like sort of never talked about it until I decided
10:48
to write the book.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: So it was sort of like going out there,
10:52
SPEAKER_00: not only writing the book,
10:53
but just like talking about it like this in conversations and
10:56
interviews and
10:57
SPEAKER_00: readings.
10:58
And to just stand before all these people and say the things I
11:02
wasn't supposed to
11:03
SPEAKER_00: tell anybody,
11:04
SPEAKER_00: you know?
11:05
It was a very strange,
11:07
very strange,
11:07
I mean,
11:08
like,
11:08
it was very traumatizing in so many ways.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: To the point that my second book sort of talks about that.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: It sort of talks about the trauma of writing about trauma.
11:19
Like,
11:19
there's this whole phase of it that begins after you're done,
11:24
you know?
11:25
SPEAKER_00: Because until then, you're just sort of in your room typing.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: And you can sort of like with your parents and you talk to them and they,
11:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:31
SPEAKER_00: they bless the book and they're like proud of you and it's good to go.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: And then there are these, all these questions that come up afterwards.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: And then you realize that you're also speaking for other people.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: These are personal stories, but they're really my parents' stories.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: They're not, I mean, they are my stories, but the bulk of it is theirs.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: And I sort of became their, and your perception of them.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
11:56
And my perception of those,
11:57
so there's all these like things,
11:59
these layers to it.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And what I decide to tell, what I decide not to tell,
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Who gave me that power to make those decisions?
12:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, I did out of nowhere.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, yes, yes, there was a lot.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think,
12:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:16
SPEAKER_00: it was like when,
12:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:17
SPEAKER_00: when you think about the idea of courage,
12:19
SPEAKER_00: I think like the,
12:21
SPEAKER_00: that was the moment that I had really,
12:23
I had to really sort of face up to what I had done and face the
12:27
people and face all
12:28
SPEAKER_00: these,
12:29
SPEAKER_00: all these questions and
12:31
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
12:31
SPEAKER_00: I always think,
12:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:33
SPEAKER_00: as myself,
12:35
SPEAKER_00: as sort of a secondary character to all of this,
12:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:38
SPEAKER_00: like I'm the writer.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm,
12:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm the,
12:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:41
SPEAKER_00: I have all the power,
12:42
SPEAKER_00: but in some ways I'm also the person who's trying to be this like medium,
12:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:48
SPEAKER_00: he's trying to connect these stories to other people and just thinks,
12:52
SPEAKER_00: okay,
12:52
SPEAKER_00: this just has to go through me.
12:55
And I always think that my parents were the ones who did such
12:58
courageous things.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: They were out there.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: They went to prison for their ideals.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: And I was safe.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: I was safe in my room writing those stories.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting to think about courage in that way.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that question you ask of, who am I?
13:14
And you are the person who has the gifts and the talents and
13:20
the passion and the
13:23
SPEAKER_01: knowledge and experience and proximity to tell this.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: And so, who else?
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know, exactly.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: And then I tell myself, but who else?
13:33
SPEAKER_00: I am sufficiently obsessed with these stories to tell them forever.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Yet,
13:39
SPEAKER_01: and I mean,
13:39
I point that out because I think we all have those questions
13:43
when we're doing big,
13:43
SPEAKER_01: brave things.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: We say, but who am I?
13:46
And like you,
13:47
we are the person who has the passion and the interest and the
13:51
ability to do it.
13:53
So who else should answer that question again and again and
13:56
hear other people who,
13:58
SPEAKER_01: like,
13:58
SPEAKER_01: I would be so sad.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: if you hadn't done this, right?
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Like sad's not even the right word.
14:05
What a freaking bummer for all of us if you hadn't done this
14:08
because who else would have?
14:10
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: That was not my experience.
14:12
I can tell you about my grandparents' journey as migrant
14:16
farmers in the Dust Bowl
14:18
SPEAKER_01: because I have proximity to that.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: I understand the human cost of that.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: I understand the generational cost of that.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: I do not understand the generational cost of this war.
14:31
And I wouldn't have any insight into it had you not been that
14:35
translator for me to
14:36
SPEAKER_01: get a glimpse into it.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: No, that's true.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: And,
14:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:40
SPEAKER_00: there were moments in all of that,
14:43
SPEAKER_00: all of those years of talking about the book and,
14:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:46
SPEAKER_00: just going over like,
14:47
SPEAKER_00: what have I done?
14:48
SPEAKER_00: That,
14:49
SPEAKER_00: for example,
14:49
SPEAKER_00: my grandpa once came to that,
14:51
SPEAKER_00: to the reading,
14:51
SPEAKER_00: his past,
14:52
SPEAKER_00: but,
14:53
SPEAKER_00: and then like,
14:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:54
everybody would go to him and my grandpa didn't really speak
14:58
English much,
14:58
SPEAKER_00: but everybody would go to him and they was like,
15:01
SPEAKER_00: you're,
15:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: you're,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: oh,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: you're the grandpa.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: And then
15:04
SPEAKER_00: And then he says,
15:05
SPEAKER_00: so hard,
15:05
like everybody's coming to me and they're saying all these nice
15:08
things to me.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: And what he really talked about, how I took care of you guys.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yeah.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: And then that, you know, that was like, I'm just like, oh, I'm so glad.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: Like you,
15:19
SPEAKER_00: you have to be praised and you have,
15:21
SPEAKER_00: everybody has to know about the sacrifices you made,
15:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:24
SPEAKER_00: and all of those people,
15:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:27
SPEAKER_00: when these sort of,
15:28
SPEAKER_00: tragedy,
15:28
SPEAKER_00: especially on a national scale,
15:30
SPEAKER_00: happen,
15:32
SPEAKER_00: it sort of really changes the society in so many ways.
15:37
And I always say if one person is imprisoned for their thoughts
15:41
or one person is
15:42
SPEAKER_00: killed for their thoughts,
15:44
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
15:44
SPEAKER_00: it's a part of all of our societies that died,
15:48
SPEAKER_00: that is killed,
15:49
SPEAKER_00: that is repressed,
15:50
SPEAKER_00: you know?
15:51
SPEAKER_00: So then there are all these people who aren't politically active,
15:55
SPEAKER_00: like my grandparents and so many people aren't,
15:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:58
SPEAKER_00: but they're just like,
15:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:59
SPEAKER_00: that's support,
16:00
SPEAKER_00: you know?
16:01
SPEAKER_00: to give to your daughters, okay?
16:03
Your daughters going out there trying to be revolutionaries or
16:07
are revolutionaries
16:08
SPEAKER_00: and you're like just sort of home or at work and you just sort of,
16:12
SPEAKER_00: okay,
16:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm here so that you can do that.
16:15
And I think that is another type of courage that we like seldom
16:18
talk about,
16:19
SPEAKER_00: the people who support courageous people,
16:22
SPEAKER_01: you know?
16:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: And honestly, the grandmother of love in the book is as somebody who
16:30
SPEAKER_01: was raised by my grandparents who,
16:35
SPEAKER_01: and for totally different reasons,
16:37
SPEAKER_01: was taking care of me because of their child's choice and youth.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: I just felt so foundly connected to it.
16:46
And I think,
16:47
again,
16:47
that's why we need stories like yours in this moment.
16:50
We need to share it here broadly to people who have no
16:54
connection to this war that
16:57
SPEAKER_01: we're discussing,
16:57
SPEAKER_01: specifically to the universal experience of sharing our stories.
17:04
And the value and importance of sharing those stories so that
17:07
we can all have the
17:09
universal experience of humanity through the specifics of each
17:13
individual story,
17:14
SPEAKER_01: right?
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
17:16
So that we can find the courage to share whatever story we have
17:19
access to.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: And as we talk about this second novel,
17:27
SPEAKER_01: it sounds like,
17:30
SPEAKER_01: we joke in our family that our greatest gift is that we're slow reactors.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: That's a good one.
17:38
We're just like,
17:39
I probably should have been like scared out of my mind in that
17:42
moment.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: But I didn't realize it until too late.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: And it's helped us do a lot more brave things probably.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: And yet to do them again.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: Once we understand the gravity and the possibility of what we're doing,
18:01
SPEAKER_01: that takes,
18:03
SPEAKER_01: I think,
18:04
SPEAKER_01: all other levels of courage.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: So how are you wading through that?
18:08
SPEAKER_01: What is your energy like as you create this next book?
18:13
SPEAKER_01: As you think about sharing this book, what's different from
18:16
SPEAKER_00: My God, yeah, you're right.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: You're like, you went through it once and you're doing it again.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: It's so brave.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: It's so brave or just insane.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: One thing is that it took me over 10 years to write the second book.
18:34
So a very long time that were both personal reasons that things
18:38
happened in my
18:39
SPEAKER_00: life,
18:40
SPEAKER_00: but also I think I was just sort of postponing writing.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: You know,
18:46
SPEAKER_00: I was writing,
18:47
I was always writing and have been working on this book for
18:50
like more than 10
18:51
SPEAKER_00: years,
18:52
SPEAKER_00: but it just kept going back to it.
18:54
Like I would write a part of it and then just think,
18:57
okay,
18:57
no,
18:57
this doesn't work.
18:58
And then like two years later,
19:00
I would go and write other,
19:02
like add other things or something.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: So like it was just like an on and off relationship with this book.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: And I remember like I remember perfectly like the first,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: let's say,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: four years,
19:13
SPEAKER_00: three,
19:14
SPEAKER_00: four years after the first book was out,
19:16
SPEAKER_00: even the idea of talking like I thought,
19:19
SPEAKER_00: OK,
19:20
SPEAKER_00: if I publish another book,
19:21
SPEAKER_00: then I have to talk about it.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: It was just too much.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, I just so I think I just kept, you know, like pushing that.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: And then sort of like years passed, of course.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: And as I would just keep going back and forth this book,
19:37
I think one thing I realized and I kind of like knew it at the
19:40
time with the first
19:41
SPEAKER_00: book.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: But I got older as well,
19:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:45
a little bit wiser and just thought about these things for such
19:48
a long time that I
19:49
realized that this is not about me and this is not about my
19:53
story and what happened
19:55
SPEAKER_00: to my parents.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: The stakes are so high.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: This is happening to a lot of people all over the world.
20:04
And the fact of like touring different countries at the time
20:07
with Jacaranda Tree
20:09
SPEAKER_00: helped me because I would go like to Argentina,
20:11
SPEAKER_00: I would go to Colombia,
20:12
SPEAKER_00: I would go to Germany,
20:13
SPEAKER_00: I would go to Greece,
20:14
SPEAKER_00: I would go to Montenegro,
20:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:16
SPEAKER_00: and people would just come to me and like to Romania.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: And then people would come to me like,
20:21
SPEAKER_00: this is like my story or this is like the story of my mother.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: And I realized, wow, this is like such a personal, intimate story.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: It was just like everyone's story, you know?
20:35
SPEAKER_00: And they identify with it,
20:38
SPEAKER_00: not just like,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: oh,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: like,
20:40
SPEAKER_00: you made it so human,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: but just like,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: no,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: no,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: no,
20:42
SPEAKER_00: it happened to me,
20:43
SPEAKER_00: too,
20:43
SPEAKER_00: or my friend,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: too,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: or Argentina.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: They were like, yeah, we have to disappear.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: We have so many thousand people who were,
20:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:50
SPEAKER_00: disappeared by the regime,
20:52
SPEAKER_00: by the Argentinian regime.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: So...
20:55
SPEAKER_00: I realized that this is just so much bigger than me and I need to get my,
20:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: myself together and really think about this again.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: So forget about,
21:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
21:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:05
SPEAKER_00: of course I didn't write about the trauma,
21:07
SPEAKER_00: writing about trauma,
21:08
SPEAKER_00: but I think this is also an important part of it.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: Like what happens to us?
21:13
who talk about this and all of these things,
21:16
because this is part of that tragedy.
21:18
Why are we telling,
21:19
why did we have to live a life to be telling these stories,
21:24
you know?
21:25
SPEAKER_00: Why couldn't we just tell other stories?
21:27
SPEAKER_00: So like,
21:28
SPEAKER_00: I think it was just sort of that,
21:30
SPEAKER_00: like there was a lot of like processing going on in my mind.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I thought, okay,
21:35
I have more to say about this and these stories and I need to
21:40
finish this book and
21:41
SPEAKER_00: I need to put it out there.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: So that was sort of what happened the second time.
21:47
Yeah.
21:48
And for anyone who is listening to this and trying to muster up
21:52
the courage to do
21:53
SPEAKER_01: their own big,
21:54
SPEAKER_01: brave thing,
21:55
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things we can take from your story is to
21:59
constantly reconnect to purpose and to ask ourselves who will
22:02
be impacted by this work?
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Who might benefit from me doing this big, brave thing?
22:09
And then to also come back to how do I make it sustainable for
22:15
myself to keep doing
22:16
SPEAKER_01: big,
22:16
SPEAKER_01: brave things?
22:19
So how do you take care of your energy,
22:24
your mind,
22:25
your body,
22:25
your spirit to do this work?
22:28
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
22:29
I'm a big believer of community and building community and
22:34
building friendships and
22:36
just talking to people about what they're doing and what their
22:41
fears are and what
22:43
SPEAKER_00: they want their life to look like and
22:46
SPEAKER_00: who they want to benefit in those in some ways, you know?
22:50
So I think doing that and just talking to people all the time
22:53
and being surrounded
22:54
SPEAKER_00: by,
22:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:55
SPEAKER_00: friends and family.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: And then my husband, who's a huge source of passion and support and love.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think all of that is just like...
23:06
surrounding yourself with that,
23:08
with that energy,
23:09
I think is always,
23:11
it's fundamental.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
23:12
SPEAKER_00: it was what saved us in Iran,
23:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:15
SPEAKER_00: like when we were still living in Iran,
23:18
SPEAKER_00: in those first years after my parents were released,
23:21
SPEAKER_00: like all of our,
23:22
SPEAKER_00: my parents' friends,
23:23
SPEAKER_00: all of our community were other people they had met in prison.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: So they were this community of prison friends.
23:31
And,
23:31
you know,
23:32
like it was just them and they would just give us so much love.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: And that saved us.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: That made us feel safe more than anything.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: So I sort of try to sort of recreate that for myself wherever I am.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, reading and cooking and then like taking time off.
23:51
I think it's also really just to like not think about it and
23:56
think about and try to
23:57
SPEAKER_00: think about other things and do other things.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, swim and travel and things like that.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: I think that's really fundamental.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: I think we need to always let all of our feelings to go through us.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, don't stop anything, you know, like whatever feeling you have.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: If you're feeling desperate,
24:17
SPEAKER_00: if you're feeling lazy,
24:18
SPEAKER_00: if you're feeling tired,
24:19
SPEAKER_00: like all of that has a reason.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, and you just shouldn't push any of them away and live them.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm sure once we live them and we live them honestly,
24:31
then we can move on to the next feeling of like passion and
24:34
production and,
24:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:36
SPEAKER_00: all of that.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: And that's another thing.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: Like I try to just be really honest with my feelings as much as possible.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: But that I believe I believe in that.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: It's a beautiful word for it too, honesty.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: It's honesty with ourselves.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: And that I think is one of the most courageous acts that we can practice.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: I think like without it,
24:57
SPEAKER_00: I'll be very lost because then like,
24:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:59
SPEAKER_00: if I'm lying to myself,
25:01
SPEAKER_00: then I really don't know,
25:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:03
SPEAKER_00: in this world that we're living in right now.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: And how could you create honest work if you're not honest with yourself?
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: And dishonest work does more harm than good.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: So it's actually all dependent on that.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not very true.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: You talk about community.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: And of course,
25:21
that's the whole reason I created this podcast is so that we'd
25:24
all be able to
25:26
saturate our brain waves with some uplifting stories of courage
25:30
in a world where
25:31
SPEAKER_01: the entire algorithm is built to amplify
25:36
SPEAKER_01: division and conflict and every quiet fear that we have.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think we just need to surround,
25:45
SPEAKER_01: we like need to blanket ourselves in stories of people saying,
25:49
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
25:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm scared and I'm going to do it anyway.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: And seeing other people do it too,
25:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:56
SPEAKER_00: because you're not the only one who's trying,
25:58
SPEAKER_00: who's trying to be brave.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, I think there is this, like, we're constantly trying.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't think none of us are,
26:05
SPEAKER_00: are like born brave or just inherently brave or are brave all the time.
26:11
You know,
26:11
like there are so many times that we aren't and someone else is
26:15
brave for us,
26:16
maybe.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: You know,
26:17
I think also watching like what everybody else is doing and how
26:21
brave they are and
26:23
how they are working so hard for this world that is on fire to
26:29
just get a little
26:30
SPEAKER_00: bit better or to just,
26:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:31
SPEAKER_00: put out the fire a little bit.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: I think that's really,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: to me,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: that's really,
26:35
SPEAKER_00: really inspiring and really helps me work more and get back to it,
26:39
SPEAKER_01: you know?
26:41
SPEAKER_01: Be brave for me sometimes.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: I think that's such a beautiful concept.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: So each person who is on the Uplifters podcast nominates another guest,
26:51
SPEAKER_01: someone who gives her courage through their actions.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: So who do you nominate?
26:58
SPEAKER_00: I nominate Yelda Ali, who is this wonderful friend, amazing person.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: And she is sort of an Afghan artist and activist and community organizer.
27:11
And she was like one of the first people when I came to New
27:14
York three years ago.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: And just as I came to the city,
27:18
SPEAKER_00: these protests in Iran,
27:19
SPEAKER_00: the Woman Life Freedom Movement happened.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: And she was one of the people,
27:24
first people who reached out to me and like put me in touch
27:28
with EST Media,
27:29
SPEAKER_00: which is this media talks about like,
27:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:31
SPEAKER_00: Southwest Asian stories to sort of talk about,
27:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:35
SPEAKER_00: what is happening in Iran.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: And that helped me so much.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: When these things happen, like you're just so like, what can I do?
27:42
SPEAKER_00: What can I do?
27:43
SPEAKER_00: And someone just gives you an opportunity to talk about it a little bit.
27:47
And it becomes so fundamental for you to just like survive
27:51
those days,
27:52
you know,
27:52
so emotionally.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: And so,
27:55
and I think she just has this like grace and has this
27:58
incredible way of bringing
28:00
SPEAKER_00: people together while doing so much.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: Like,
28:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:04
SPEAKER_00: she's pregnant with her second child and,
28:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:07
SPEAKER_00: like,
28:07
and like trying to come up with all these different ideas of
28:10
how like to make life
28:11
SPEAKER_00: in New York City better.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: And she's a DJ at the time, at the same time.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: So,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: there's like,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: she's doing so many things and always with just like such ease,
28:20
SPEAKER_00: it seems.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: She sounds amazing and I can't wait to talk to her.
28:28
And it reminds me that the people who inspire us the most are
28:34
generally the ones
28:35
SPEAKER_01: who aren't just doing one thing.
28:37
There are people who are excited about life and finding some
28:42
multifaceted richness
28:44
SPEAKER_01: in the experience.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
28:47
I'm sort of like mentally cataloging women who inspire me and
28:51
the women we've had
28:52
SPEAKER_01: on our podcast.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: And that word multifaceted comes up so often.
28:58
I think there's something to that that I want to explore a
29:01
little further.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: As uplifters, we love to uplift uplifters.
29:07
How can we support you and your personal or professional
29:12
missions right now?
29:13
I think listening and reading and listening to us and to me and
29:18
to us in general,
29:19
SPEAKER_00: because I feel like,
29:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:21
SPEAKER_00: we who are coming from...
29:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm a first generation migrant.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: I was 12 when I came here.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: I lived many years here and then I lived in Italy.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: So I've just sort of like,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: I've just been trapped,
29:32
like going around the world so much and finally found my home
29:35
in New York City.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: I think stories of our region are so...
29:42
SPEAKER_00: simplified.
29:43
I don't think that it's not because there aren't people who are
29:46
listening and
29:46
SPEAKER_00: paying attention,
29:47
SPEAKER_00: but that they've become so simplified.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: It's just become so, everything's become so black and white.
29:54
And I really think that if our readers and our listeners are
29:59
open to our complexities and
30:02
SPEAKER_00: which are like the complexities of anybody else in the world,
30:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:06
SPEAKER_00: that would just be so,
30:09
SPEAKER_00: so helpful to just be open to different stories that come from that.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: So not one story, so many stories.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: And all those so many stories also have so many different layers to them.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: I think,
30:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:22
SPEAKER_00: because sometimes you just feel like,
30:24
SPEAKER_00: oh,
30:24
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
30:24
SPEAKER_00: well,
30:24
SPEAKER_00: I've heard the Iranian story already.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: I heard the Afghan story already.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: I heard it.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: But it's like, no, you haven't.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: Like, how can you even say that?
30:31
Like,
30:31
we're like,
30:32
you know,
30:33
we're a complex society with complex histories.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: and upheavals and so much up and down.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: And there's no way that you know our story.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Like there's just no way you maybe know one of our stories.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: So I think that openness to complexities,
30:50
SPEAKER_00: because when our complexities are denied,
30:53
our agency is denied and we can't be narrators of our own
30:58
stories anymore.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: I think that would be one thing that I would really appreciate.
31:03
Yeah.
31:04
That is one of the most meaningful answers I've ever heard to
31:07
that question.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
31:09
Something I think about a lot because we're like,
31:11
we face this thing a lot every day,
31:13
so...
31:14
SPEAKER_01: And we do make so many assumptions about,
31:19
SPEAKER_01: especially when things feel distant from us in some way.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: And it is sort of the dumbing down of our society right now.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: We're like, I heard one, two minute to talk about this.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: So I know all there is to know.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: And it is singularly that one person's experience.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't speak well about anyone.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, it's not good for us.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: It's not good for Americans.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: It's not good for anybody, this sort of dumbing down of stories.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: I think it only creates hostility,
31:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:52
SPEAKER_00: misunderstanding,
31:53
SPEAKER_00: which leads to hostility and to division and to,
31:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
31:58
SPEAKER_00: and then,
31:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:59
SPEAKER_00: and then we see what is happening in the world.
32:02
And that is a result of this because it's been going on for
32:06
decades,
32:07
if not for centuries.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the ripple effects impact all of us.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: We need so much more understanding to create that change.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: For anyone who's listening to this,
32:17
I'll do my best to recap some of the key courage capital
32:23
building lessons in here.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: And to Sahar's point, none of us are born with more courage.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: We build courage through every lived experience,
32:36
SPEAKER_01: both that we have,
32:37
SPEAKER_01: but also that those who came before us have.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: And it is a matter of building tolerance for courage.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, yes.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: That is perfect.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, exactly.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: And that threshold, right?
32:50
SPEAKER_01: It helps us take the next courageous step.
32:54
And also because we live in this world now,
32:58
but there are also so many good things about it.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: You know,
33:01
SPEAKER_00: we live,
33:02
SPEAKER_00: we have so many,
33:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:04
SPEAKER_00: but anything we're able to do now as women,
33:09
SPEAKER_00: as minorities,
33:11
SPEAKER_00: is because someone else fought for it in the past.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: Like none of these like,
33:17
Freedom,
33:17
equality,
33:18
none of these are things that just like fall from the sky,
33:21
you know?
33:22
SPEAKER_01: It's never happened by accident.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: Never.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's never happened in a straight line.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Never.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely not.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: There's just so much.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: You go, you take two steps, you take five steps back.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: But there are people who are like willing to fight the fight.
33:38
And there have been people who've done that for generations for
33:41
us all over the
33:43
SPEAKER_00: world,
33:43
SPEAKER_00: in America,
33:44
SPEAKER_00: in Iran,
33:44
SPEAKER_00: anywhere.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: So like, I think it's important to realize that nothing is given.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: And if we don't have the courage to at least protect the things,
33:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:55
SPEAKER_00: that we have,
33:56
SPEAKER_00: it'll be gone before we know it.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, at least respect for those who fought before us.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: We need to fight, you know, to keep.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it'll be gone before we know it.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, like a dictatorial society, it wasn't inherent to dictatorship.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: There wasn't like nothing wrong with it because people think like that.
34:20
It's an accumulation of so many historical events and political
34:24
events that brings
34:26
SPEAKER_00: it to that point.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: The fear mongering and the hate was developed over practice too.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: And so can courage be built in the same way.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: And there were people who were fighting before my parents.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: So like,
34:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
34:39
it's a fight that goes on and we have to have the courage to
34:44
protect it as well,
34:45
SPEAKER_01: as well as moving forward.
34:48
And I think then lesson one here is to constantly reconnect the
34:52
purpose and that
34:53
the most courageous people you see in the world are the ones
34:56
who not only have a
34:57
SPEAKER_01: strong sense of purpose,
34:58
SPEAKER_01: but surround themselves with reminders of why courage matters.
35:02
And that's what helps them get out of bed and make these brave
35:05
choices each day.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: I think
35:06
It is also surrounding ourselves with community and people who
35:09
remind us what we
35:10
SPEAKER_01: are capable of and witnessing other people's courage,
35:13
giving ourselves a sense of greater belief and hope that we can
35:17
cultivate courage.
35:18
It is allowing ourselves to take the time we need to build that
35:22
courage and to
35:24
SPEAKER_01: allow breaks and rest to restore our stores of courage and to...
35:32
SPEAKER_01: Acknowledge, as you said, with honesty, the complexities of this.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: And to trust that we are not wrong because it is not easy.
35:40
That we can feel scared and sad and hurt and weak and still be
35:46
courageous at the same time.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: And to trust that whatever courageous steps we take are worthwhile.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: And all those little steps count.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: Little investments.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: Sahar, thank you so much for being here.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for the courageous work that you're doing in the world.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to devour your next book and your next.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Uplifters podcast.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: If you're getting a boost from these episodes,
36:27
please share them with the Uplifters in your life and then join
36:32
us in conversation
36:33
SPEAKER_01: over at theuplifterspodcast.com.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: Head over to Spotify,
36:38
SPEAKER_01: Apple Podcasts,
36:39
SPEAKER_01: or wherever you get your podcasts and like,
36:42
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36:43
SPEAKER_01: and rate our show.
36:45
It'll really help us connect with more uplifters and it'll
36:49
ensure you never miss
36:50
SPEAKER_01: one of these beautiful stories.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: Big love.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: Painted water, sunshine, with rosemary and ton.
37:01
SPEAKER_02: Dwelling, not perplexing, though you find it vexing.
37:06
SPEAKER_02: Toss a star and hover.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: Be your own best lover.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: Relish in a new prime.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: Plant a tree in springtime.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: Dance with idle hindsight.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: Bring the sun to twilight.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: Lift you up.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: Whoa.
37:25
SPEAKER_03: Lift you up Lift you up Lift you up
38:00
SPEAKER_03: Beautiful.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: It's that little thing you did with your voice.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: In the pre-chorus.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: I was like.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: Mommy, stop crying.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: You're disturbing the peace.