Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / Ep. 237 ~ Carrolling Through The Night

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Ep. 237 ~ Carrolling Through The Night · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

0:15
Everything is going to hell down here inducted and don't come I find that would
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take that back and don't come with my cat Here is your homeside me and
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don't come with my take back then I don't come find that here is your
0:49
holside. That's right? People want is up? Welcome back to the show.
1:07
This is episode two hundred and thirty seven of the Loon gum And podcast
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and I am your host, Big Ado, otherwise known as Robert Clark,
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here with you for another exciting show. We're going to be talking about Attorney
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Carol John Agan here in the show today and what he said and what people
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thought about what he said. And we're also going to be taking a closer
1:34
look at some of the criminal investigative practices that were standards and in place in
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nineteen sixty three and see how well the Dallas Police live. A lot of
1:55
people are not aware of, you know, exactly what the standards and practices
2:00
were involving criminal investigation all the way back in nineteen sixty three. You know,
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what were the protocols, what was expected of them, how was evidence
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to be collected, how is it to be handled? Was their chain of
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custody? All these things, and all these questions will be answered. Promise
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you. Before we get into the show, Let's hear a word from our
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It's a great deal, it's some good sauce, and it helps to support
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the show. All right, So let's get right into this. Yeah,
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so you know how to use all kinds of shit all the time, some
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different directions, up, down, sideways, backwards, agonally. I'm always
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looking into things and rereading things and going back because it's you know, doing
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this for so long. You know, you for you tend to forget,
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you know a lot of things. But you tend to forget a lot of
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things or you misremember things, so you know, it's always good to go
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back to the source. So so Carol Jarnigan Adventure started way back, way
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way way way back. And I'm talking they much right after the assassination has
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started. Um, and we'll get into that story. Um. Well,
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this comes from forgive my grief Penn Jones, and they're talking about Carol Jarnigan
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and his journey talking to and investigating Carol Jarnigan. Now the Dallas Police and
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the Warren Commission talk to Carol Jarnigan as well. But let's get Penn Jones's
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version first, because you know, he's always a character. So he says,
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of the many amazing things in the Warrn Commission exhibits, here's a statement
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of Carol Jarnigan, and it's one of the most astounding. Attorney Jarnigan we
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felt either has total recall memory, or he had a tape recorder with him
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that night, or he made up the story out of his imagination. I
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could tension is that the Commission should have heard Johnigan so the members could come
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to their own conclusions rather than depend solely on the opinions of District Attorney Henry
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Wade. On January the thirteenth, nineteen sixty six, we asked Johnigan if
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he had a tape re quarter that night in the Carousel Club, and he
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said he did not, And we said, well, then you sure must
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have a fantastic memory. Jarnigan said he graduated in the upper twenty percent of
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his class at Southern Methodist University. He had no trouble getting into the University
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of Chicago. After that. He told us he wants made a hundred on
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a college chemistry examination with many chemical formulas as answers. He said, I
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made a hundred on that test, and I think I could recite the chemical
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formula to you right now. Jarnigan is an excellent chess player, which is
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the game requiring skill and a good memory. Jarnigan repeated that he told the
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truth and his statement, and he holds no ill will towards anyone. When
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f if he is friendly with Henry Wade, members of the same legal fraternity,
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Jarnigan said, well, yes, Wade did the only thing he could
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under the circumstances. But Jarnigan did not elaborate. Several points would seem to
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make response. Are reasonable men scream for a thorough investigation of the Jarnigan statement.
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For example, at the time of the assassination, Ruby was sitting in
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the Dallas News Building in a room from which he could have watched Oswald get
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off his shots and during his pay discussed below, Oswald after the shooting was
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walking in the direction of Ruby's apartment Wherewin might presume Oswald expected to pick up
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his pay. Apparently Oswald changed directions to the Texas Theater after the killing of
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Tippett. We have been told Oswald once worked part time at the theater.
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Never heard that before, but okay. Most students of this case are convinced
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that if Oswald shot, his bullets hit only Givin or Connelly. To the
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real students of this case, the evidence is compelling that President Kennedy was shot
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only twice and by a second resument from the front. Excuse me? Does
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it not seem that this evidence, plus the actions of Ruby and Oswald,
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added to the voluntary statement of Joarningon, amount to enough evidence for Johnigan to
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be called before the Commission as a witness. Below are parts of the Jarnigen
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statement which he mailed to the FBI on December the fourth, nineteen sixty three,
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when and now Narnigan statement didn't make it into the Warrant Commission exhibits,
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but he was not called to testify before the Warrant Commission, so we have
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this. On December the fifth, nineteen sixty three, the Bureau supplied the
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following copy of a letter and an eight page statement received at the Bureau on
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December fifth to mister Carroll Jarnigan, Attorney at Law, five eleven North Acred
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Building, Room four to eighty John Texas, Mister j Ed Guyhuva, the
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Director Federal Bureau of Investigation, Washington, Dcity. Yeah, mister Hoover.
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On October to fourth, nineteen sixty three, I was in the Carousel Club
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in Dallas, and while there I heard Jack Ruby talking to a man using
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the name H. L. Lead. These men were talking about plans to
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kill the governor of Texas. This information was passed on to the Texas Department
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of Public Safety on October fifth, which is the next day my telephone one
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Sunday, November twenty fourth, sixty three, I definitely realized that the picture
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in the November twenty third, nineteen sixty three Dallas Times Herald of Lee Harvey
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Oswald was a picture of the man using the name hl Lee who's conversational with
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Jack Ruby I overheard back on October the fourth, nineteen sixty three. They
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are after attempted to recall as much of this October fourth, nineteen sixty three
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conversations with as much accuracy as possible, and reduced it to writing the enclosed
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original and two copies of this report are true to the best of my own
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personal knowledge and belief, and this report is sent to you for whatever use
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it may be in assisting the FBI and your current investigation, if and when
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you see fit. I have no objection to the copies of this report being
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sent by you to the DA of Dallas County and to the Attorney General of
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Texas and any other officials to whom may see fit to disclose this information.
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My only request is that my identity remain undisclosed as long as possible. Respectfully
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submitted, yours very sincerely, Carol Johnnyan. All Right, so he's asking
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for nominimity when nominimite anonymity liberty labbot, Yes, there's another one and nimity
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amity. Okay. So quote report of events which took place in the Carousel
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Club at thirteen twelve and a half Commerce Street, Dallas, Texas, on
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Friday, October fourth, at about ten pm until almost eleven forty five pm.
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The club is located on the second floor and is entered by a stairway
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leading up from the sidewalk on the south side of Commerce Street. Witness,
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who is an attorney and a client who is an exotic dancer, walk up
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the stairs to the Carousel Club at about an mpm. The dancer, stage
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name Robin Hood, desires to talk with Jack Ruby, the owner of the
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club, about securing a booking for in Ryland. The witness and the dancer
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entered the club and sit down at the second table the right from the entrance.
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Dancer faces the stage, which is against the east wall and to the
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left north of the passageway which leads east from the second floor entrance door.
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I'm already confused, and the witness sits facing the entrance doorway. The ticket
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booth is at the south end of the building or landing at the top of
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the stairs and the entrance doorway of the second floor. I fuck all that.
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Several minutes Taptshire, witness and the dancer are seated. The witness notices
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a man appear in the lighted entrance area and tell the girl in the ticket
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booth want to see Jack Ruby. In a short period of time, the
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bouncer appears and with a flashlight, shines a beam of light upon the ceiling
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the inside of the club at the entrance area. The man who has asked
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to see. Jack Ruby is dressed in a tan jacket, has brown hair,
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needs a haircut. It's wearing a sports shirt. Is about five foot
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ten in height five nine or five ten. His general appearance is somewhat unkempt,
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and he does not appear to be dressed for night clubbing. He the
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new arrival, sits with his back. He's a wall at the first table
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to his right from the entrance area. After a few minutes, he orders
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in a served a bottle of beard. He continues to sit alone and appears
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to be staring at the dancer. The dancer leaves the table, and the
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new arrival stares intently at the witness. The witness notices the new arrival's eyes
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are dark and his face it's unsmiling. Then, after some minutes, a
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man dressed in a dark suit, about forty five years of age, partially
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bald, medium height and medium to heavy build, dark hair, and more
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or less hawk faced, and appearances from the side, joins the new arrival
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at the table. The new arrival appeared to be about twenty five years of
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age. The older man dressed in the dark suit was later indicated by the
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dancer to be Jack Ruby, and The following conversation was Hoover. For here
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we have the infamous conversation between allegedly Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald. Jeff
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Ruby starts it off parenthesis some name not clearly heard or not definitely recalled by
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this witness. What are you doing here? The man who had been sitting
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a loans is don't call me by my name? Ruby. What name are
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you using? I'm using the name hl Lee. Ruby. What do you
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want? I need some money money. I just got in from New Orleans.
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I need a place to stay in a job. Ruby. I noticed
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you hadn't been around in two or three weeks. What were you doing in
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New Orleans? There was a street fight and I got put in jail.
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Ruby? What charge? Disturbing the peace? Ruby? How'd you get back?
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I hitchhike just got in. Ruby. Don't you have a family.
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Can't you stay with them? They're in irving. They know nothing about this.
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I want to get a place to myself. They don't know I'm back.
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Ruby. You'll get the money after the job is done. Lee.
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What about half now and half after the job is done? Ruby, No,
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but don't worry. I'll have the money for you after the job is
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done. Read how much? Ruby? We've already agreed on that. Ruby
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leans forward and some of the conversation following is not heard by the witness.
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Next, Lee, Ruby, how do I know that you can do the
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job? It's simple. I'm a marine sharp shooter. Ruby. Are you
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sure that you can do the job without hitting anybody but the governor? Lee?
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I'm sure I've got the equipment ready, Ruby, have you tested it?
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We need to practice any Lee, don't you worry about that? I
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don't need any practice. When will the governor be here? Ruby? Oh,
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he'll be here plenty of times during campaigns. Lead, Where can I
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do the job? And Ruby from the roof of some building, Lie says
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no, that's too risky. Too many people around. Ruby. But they'll
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be watching the parade. They won't even notice you, Lead, and afterwards
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they would tear me to pieces before I could get away. Ruby, Well
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shift and do it from here, indicating the north end of the Carousel Club,
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right here, out of the Windham Lee. How would I get in?
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Ruby? Wow? Tell the porter to let you in. Lee,
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But won't there be people in the place. Ruby. I can close the
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place for the parade and leave worried with the porter to let you in.
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Lead, But what about the quarter Ruby, I can tell him to leave
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after letting you in. He won't know anything. Lead. I don't want
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any witnesses around when I do the job. Ruby, you will be alone.
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I assure you leave. How do I get away? There won't be
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much time afterwards. Ruby, you can just run out the back door here.
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Leave. What about the rifle? What do I do if the police
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run in while I'm running out? Ruby, I kind of the rifle.
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You just heard the shot and ran in from the parade to see what was
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going on and the confusion. You can walk out the front door and into
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the crowd. Lead, No, they might shoot you first. There must
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be time for me to get out the back way before the police come in,
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and you lock the front door after I come in and leave the back
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door open. Ruby, that would get me involved, although shooting from your
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bar's not gonna get you involved. Rube, Okay, how could I explain
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you in my club with the rifle and the front door locked. You could
18:00
say that Lee locked the door after his team minutes. Lee, Well,
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you could just say he left the front door open and it was locked from
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the inside when somebody slipped in while you were outside watching the paradel? Says
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again, but what about the money? When do I get the money?
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Ruby? I have it here for you, Lee, but when I'm not
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going to have much time after the shooting to get away at Ruby, I'll
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have the money on me and I'll run in first and hand it to you
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and you can run on out the back way. I mean, this sounds
18:41
like a three Stooges plan if I've ever heard one. Folks, So,
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he says, Lee, I can't wait long. Why can't you leave the
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money in here? Ruby? How do I know you'll do the job?
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Read? How do I know you'll show up with the money after the job
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is done? Ruby? You can trust me, my boy. Besides,
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you'll have the persuade her here. Leave the rifle. I want to get
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away from it as soon as it's used. Ruby, you can trust me.
19:21
Lead What about giving me half the money now and half the money after
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the job is done? Ruby, I can't turn looses the money until the
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job is done. There's a slip up and you don't get him, they'll
19:32
pick the money up immediately. I couldn't tell them that I gave it half
19:36
of it to you in advance. They think I double crossed them. I
19:40
would have to return all the money. People think I have a lot of
19:42
money, but I couldn't raise half of that amount even by selling everything I
19:45
have. You'll just have to trust me to hand you the money as soon
19:49
as the job is done. There's no other way. Remember, they want
19:52
the job done just as bad as you want the money. And after this
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is done, they may want to use you again. Leave. Not that
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it makes any difference, but what have you died against the governor Ruby,
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he won't work with us on paroles. With a few of this, with
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a few of the right boys out, we could really open up this state.
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And with a little for operations from the governor. The boys in Chicago
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have no place to go, no place to really operate. They've clamped down
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the lid in Chicago. Cuba's closed. Everything's dead. Look at this place
20:27
half empty. If we can open up this state, we can attack this
20:32
place every night. Those boys will spend if they have the money. And
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remember we're right next to Mexico. There'd be money for everybody if we can
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open up this state. Li says, how do you know if the governor
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won't work with you, Ruby, it's no use. He's been in Washington
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too long. They're too straight up there. After they've been there a while,
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they get to thinking like the Attorney General. The attorney General. Now
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there's a guy the boys would like to get. But it's no use.
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He stays in Washington too much. Lead. A rifle shoots as far in
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Washington as it does in Texas, doesn't it, Ruby, forget it.
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That would bring the heat onto everywhere, and the FIDS would get into everything.
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No, forget about the attorney general. Lead killing the governor of Texas
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will put the heat on you too, on it, Ruby, Not really.
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They'll think some crackpotter communists did it, and it'll be written off as
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an unsolved crime. Lead. That is, if I get away, Ruby,
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Oh, you'll get away. All you have to do is run out
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the back door. Lee or what kind of door is there back there?
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Who won't asking any lock on me, will it? Ruby? No,
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you can get out that way without any trouble. Lee. It doesn't open
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onto a fire escape, does it. I don't want to run out into
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an open fire escape with a rifle in my hand right after the shooting.
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Ruby, No, No, it's a safe way out. I'll show you,
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but not right now. Lead there's really only one building to do it
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from one that covers Main Elm and Commerce Ruby. Which one is that the
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school book building close to the Triple Underpass Ruby. What's long we're doing it?
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I'm here leave? What if he goes down another street and then that's
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where it ends. Penn Jones says, this is all the statement we feel
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necessary to print it. We insist only that the author of this statement should
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have been called before the Commission as a witness. He said, next,
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we will show the preferential treatment given to the Attorney General of Texas wagon her
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car. So that's basically the cruss of Penn Jones's interaction or his thoughts on
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Carol John Agan. Penn Jones wrote this in nineteen sixty six, so you
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know they've had approximately few years, because you know, if if Jarnigan went
23:02
to the FBI in December sixty three, you know, you know, almost
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in sixty four then, so we're looking at two years in between us.
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And it does seem a little odd that, you know, Carol Jarnigan could
23:17
remember this detailed conversation in such clear form down to you know, nuances and
23:26
directions and all this jazz. Right, it just seems like, honestly,
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it seems made up. You know. The question is why why would a
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random lawyer in Dallas make up a story like this? I mean, I
23:49
could see somebody in any other profession, but a lawyer, a lawyer,
24:00
a lawyer. So if joining him wrote to the FBI on December the fifth,
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you're looking, this is approximately two weeks after the assassination. Okay,
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two weeks after, and he's given the FBI all this information. Now this
24:30
is correspondence and this FBI record making into the Warran Commission. But like I
24:34
said, he was dot called before the Warrant Commission to testify because hello,
24:41
hello, if it's true, then they've got a big problem on their hands
24:48
that they definitely don't want to deal with. So how do you go about
24:57
just crediting this man? Well, I'll tell you, folks. So's on
25:18
March the second, nineteen sixty four, in a letter a report to Jesse
25:26
Curry, the Chief of Police, subject being the polygraph examination given to mister
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Carol Jarnigan. Okay, and it says, Sir, at the request of
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Lieutenant Jack Revel, the polygraph examination was given to mister Carol Jarnigan of five
25:44
zero one sixth north Way Drive on this bad This examination was given to determine
25:51
if mister Jarnigan had told the truth in and after David given to mister Henry
25:56
Wade regarding a conversation Mister Jarnigan states that you overheard between Lee Harvey Oswald or
26:02
Jack Ruby inside the Carousel Club in October fourth, nineteen sixty three. The
26:10
following is a list of pertinent questions asked and the answers given. And boy,
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folks, are you gonna love this number one from here on island?
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Do you intend to answer my questions with the truth? Answer yes, indication
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lying number two? Have you told the complete truth in this Affidavid? Answer
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yes, indication lying in number three eight, did you actually overhear this conversation
26:44
between Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald? Answer yes, indication lying number four.
26:56
What were you drinking that night? Were are you drinking that night?
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Sorry? Answer yes, indication cruising Number five. Did you actually see Lee
27:11
Harvey Oswald and Jack Rubie at that table on the night of October fourth,
27:18
nineteen fifty three? Answer yes, indication lying Number six did you hear this
27:29
conversation between these two men on that night? Answer yes, indication lying.
27:41
Number seven. Oh see, did you hear the name hl Lee in this
27:48
conversation? Answer yes, indication I Number eight. Is there any part of
27:56
this affidavit that you know to be false? Answer no, indication lying.
28:08
So that's that's the slight first part. All right, let's get into the
28:17
second part. Number nine. Did you deliberately make up this alpidavit to get
28:22
some publicity? Answer no, indication lying. Were you drunk that night?
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Answer yes, indication Crue eleven. Did you hear everything that you put in
28:40
this alfidavit? Answer yes, indication lying. After the examination, it is
28:51
the opinion of the examiner that mister Jarnigan did not overhear this conversation and then
28:56
he made the story up, respectfully. Submitted Small bent Pollygraph Exam of the
29:02
ID Bureau again, March nineteen and sixty four. Now, what's a little
29:11
deceptive about this summary report, Jesse Curry from Paul Bentley is that it does
29:18
not include, wow, the charts that back up the assertions given in this
29:29
nor does it give all of the questions and answers put to Jarnigan it is
29:37
very selective in the ones that it puts forward. Obviously Jarnigan was somewhere drinking
29:51
and he got drunk that night, But everything else they're saying a total lot.
30:02
So did they even pinpoint that he was at the Carousel club that night
30:04
or somewhere else? That question wasn't asked, or maybe it was, but
30:10
it wasn't included in the summary report. So, like I said, we
30:12
don't have a full picture here. This is what we call a disaccreditation focus
30:21
to basically a pen and mister John Van and be done with him, because
30:27
if true, if true, his assertion, if true, would change the
30:36
entire sumplection of the Oswald case if he could create a substantive link between Ruby
30:45
and Oswald. Now, as you can see, like I said before,
30:48
from Penn Jones's observation that the level of detail in this conversation that join again
31:00
remembers from you know, so long ago, almost verbatim, is an uncanny
31:10
ability. You know, we almost called that a photodac like a photo photographic
31:19
memory or I see what the words for these people, not autodats, but
31:27
something like that. But um, you know, it's it's it's almost easy
31:36
to say that he's making this up at this point, because nobody can really
31:40
understand how somebody could remember all of this in such detail, you know,
31:48
after some months of something that seemed insignificant at the time. So fast forward
31:55
a little bit and we're going to take a look at somebody else. Another
32:01
researcher who made their way to Dallas and managed to catch up with Carol Jarnigan
32:09
on the advice of any Jones. And that man's name was very Earnest,
32:15
author of the Grillom Stairs, And it is from his book The Groom Stairs
32:23
he says, as an attorney, I expect it's find a typically busy legal
32:29
practice. But when I opened the door, I walked into an eight foot
32:34
by eight room. My bathroom might be bigger than that. Maybe a few
32:44
feet ahead was a single chair of her visitor. To my left, a
32:47
startled man rose with small desk so quickly, and his chairs slammed into the
32:52
wall behind him. Yarnigan was working out of a literal broom closet. Jarnigan
33:00
was a frail person in averaging height. He wore glasses in a business suit,
33:07
and probably in his early forties. He smiled as I entered. He
33:10
offered me his hand, no doubt, expecting me to be another, maybe
33:14
his only client of the day. As he sat back down, I told
33:17
him the nature of my visit and would he mind answering a few questions.
33:22
The smile left his face more quickly than it would have taken to traverse his
33:27
meager office. He motioned for me to sit down as he reached for a
33:30
cigarette. I settled into his only other chair, and minutes of silence drifted
33:37
by. I don't want to talk about it, he finally said. I
33:43
told him I only wanted to know what it was that made him so sure
33:46
that the man he saw was the hearty Oswald. He refused to answer.
33:52
Instead, he nervously puffed on one cigarette, and then another and another.
33:59
This was making me uneasy. After ten minutes of this ship, I got
34:05
up to leave. Jarnigan motioned for me to sit agaend. He apologize for
34:09
his silent, saying he had argay provided the NPI with a full statement That
34:15
agency had disbelieved him, he said, labeling in a case of misidentification,
34:22
and that's the way I'm going to accept it, he said. He stared
34:25
at me in a way that made me self aware then he averted his eyes
34:30
as if it was me giving him the creeps, hoping to break the ice.
34:36
I said it was Penn Jones who had mentioned his name, and he
34:38
immediately asked how many deaths had occurred to witnesses up to that point and told
34:45
him Jones had the number pegged at forty five. Well, I don't want
34:50
to be number forty six, he muttered, And that's when it hit me.
34:53
John Agan wasn't toying with me. He wasn't playing word games. He
34:59
was for his life. Well, if I make you uncomfortable, I said,
35:06
and he did nothing to stop me from leaving. This time. Jones
35:09
told me there were people in Dallas who were afraid to talk, and I
35:15
had just met one of them. And that is a very earnest visit to
35:22
Carol Johnigan in Dallas, But it would not be his last visit. Right.
35:35
Let's see here, all right, So he goes back to visit Carol
35:52
john Agan. He knocks on the door. When I did, Carol Johnigan
35:57
glanced up from his desk with a smile. Plea pleasantness left when he recognized
36:04
who was knocking. Remember me, I said. He reached into his desk
36:08
drawer and removed the pack of cigarettes, which he quickly opened and began to
36:13
ignite. I certainly brought out it brought out a most unhealthy reaction in this
36:19
guy. He waved his free hand towards the chair, indicating I should sit.
36:24
Jarnigan had done nothing to redecorate the place. It smelled and looked the
36:30
same as it had him when I was here at least five months ago.
36:34
So okay, five months have passed in between meeting Jarnigan since the last time.
36:39
He says, I remember you, he said. He proceeded to tell
36:44
me my name, where I was from the exactly dating time of our previous
36:47
meeting. He brought forth details of my past I had not remember telling him
36:52
during the IDO chatter, and I apparently had lapsed into while we had talked
36:57
last March. Then he gave me a verbatim recitation of the questions I had
37:02
asked him back then in the answers he had provided, all without the benefit
37:07
of notice. The man had a total or recall. So I began,
37:17
can I get you to talk a bit about seeing Oswald at the Carousel Club?
37:22
Jargon returned to his shill. I think profusely on what seemed like an
37:25
endless supply of cancer stick. How many deaths? Now? He blurted out,
37:30
what how many deaths of witnesses the Jones Show? Now, I don't
37:36
really know. I haven't been in touch with him yet, he said,
37:39
I'm sure it's higher than the forty five you mentioned the last time you were
37:43
here. I had forgotten the number. As usual, Jaragan refused to answer
37:49
my questions. He even declined my idea of simply nodding yes or no in
37:52
lieu of a verbal response. After fifteen minutes of this nonsense, I got
37:57
up to leave. Jargon raised his index figure and coughed out a plead.
38:01
Wait, please sit down, he answers. He studied me a bit longer,
38:07
and then broke in silence. It was Oswald I saw that night at
38:12
the club. I asked how I could be so sure? Was his eyesight
38:15
as sharp as his memory? He said he was able to see the man
38:19
distinctly, since Oswald occupied the booth nest to where joining him was sitting,
38:23
and based on the tantalizing conversation being overheard, the attorney had begun to play
38:30
close attention. That was on October the fourth, nineteen sixty three. When
38:35
Oswald's picture appeared on television and in the paper six weeks later, he said
38:39
he immediately associated with and being the same man that he's a team with Ruby.
38:45
Were there any other witnesses to what was being said? I asked.
38:49
I was accompanied by a young woman. Her name was Shirley maub Malden,
38:54
but she denies it now. Jardigan said much of the Eavesdrop conversation center on
39:00
a plot by Chicago gangsters to eliminate Kennedy. The plot was successful, he
39:06
felt, because the Ruby's connections to organize crime. You're not writing a book,
39:10
am I right? He asked, No, I said, I was
39:13
here strictly for my own curiosity. Good, he said, because I'm afraid
39:20
that if I talk publicly about it, they'll get me too. Johnigan was
39:24
concerned for his life because of the previous incident. During Jack Ruby's trial in
39:30
early nineteen sixty four, Johniganson was awakened in the middle of the night by
39:34
a car I linked his outside his bedroom window. As he drew the curtains
39:38
back to investigate, he noticed the hose attached to the exhaust pipe at a
39:42
vehm. The hose snaked its way over to the air conditioning unit that he
39:45
had running in his window. Marbara monoxide gas was filling his room. Whoever
39:52
has set up the contraption must have discovered that he was awaken Johnigan said,
39:57
because seconds later the car spent away dragged I was behind it. The next
40:02
morning, Jargon found an empty can of ether sitting outside the window. He
40:07
discovered it too, had been poured into his fan. He had not been
40:10
awakened, and why had he not been awakened? He would have been overcome
40:15
by the combined fumes and Shirley died. Fortunately, the only consequence was a
40:22
three day headache. Did he associated the attempt on his life is what he
40:25
had seen at the Carousel Club? Most definitely, he replied, I am
40:30
absolutely no other reason for why it occurred. And you never told any of
40:35
this to the Warning Commission. They never contacted me, Jargon answered, I
40:39
noticed. I notified the FBI right after the assassination about what I'd seen and
40:45
heard at Ruby's Club, but I guess they weren't interested either. Other than
40:50
Pennon Jones, You're the only person that I've really talked to. On December
40:58
the fifth, nineteen sixty three, Joarnigan sent the FBI and eight page statement
41:01
of his encounter. It ended up in the twenty six volumes. Even though
41:06
the commission refused to question Jarnigan, it was still interested in what he had
41:08
to say. Well Junior eight sixty before the Commissioner asked Dallas Ditric attorney Henry
41:15
Wade, if you remember the name of an attorney he had previously met who
41:17
claimed to have seen Oswald and Ruby. Wade that I can't think of his
41:22
name. Some of you all may know it, but he was a lawyer
41:25
there in Dallas Rankin as a lawyer that you referred to. Carol Joarnigan Wade,
41:31
Carol Jarnigan, it is his name, yes, sir. Wade said
41:36
he met Jargon while prosecuting Ruby for Oswald's murder. He described him as one
41:43
as one of some eight to ten witnesses he came forward with information about a
41:49
possible connection between the two. According to Wade, Jarnigan had approached him with
41:53
an offer to serve as a witness during the trial. Wade he told me
41:59
this is what and I said, I can't put you in a stand without
42:05
I am satisfied you are telling the truth, because we have got a good
42:07
case here, and if they proved we are putting a line witness on a
42:12
stand, it might hurt us. The only thing I know to do,
42:15
or the only thing I know to do, I won't put you in a
42:19
stand, but to take a polygraph to see if you were telling the truth
42:22
or not. He said, I'd be glad to This was during the trial,
42:28
actually, and when the man called me, he took a line detector.
42:32
There was no truth in it. But he was in the place.
42:37
He was in the place and Ruby's carousel, but that none of this conversation
42:40
took place ranking he found that it was not anything you could rely on waiting.
42:49
I didn't use him as a witness, And after giving him the polygraph,
42:52
I was satisfied that he was imagining. I think he was sincere.
42:55
I don't think he was trying. I don't think he was trying to be
42:59
a hero or anything. I think he really thought about it so much.
43:02
I think he thought that had happened, but the polygraph indicated otherwise. I
43:08
asked Jarnigan why he chose to talk to the DA if he feared for his
43:13
life. I thought I could help jarning In reply, and the attempt on
43:16
my life did not occur until after I had offered my information to Henry Wade
43:21
in the polygraph tests. The Wade told the Commission had showed you when not
43:23
telling the truth. Jarnigan just shrowed, what can I say? The polygraph
43:30
is notoriously unreliable, and I was very nervous. I was aware of and
43:34
how the government was describing their relationship between Ruby and Oswald, and I knew
43:38
different. Suddenly Jarnigan went muted, perhaps sensing he had said it. No
43:44
but two one. I decided to leave after one final question, how do
43:50
you know, in all honesty and was such such sincerity, without any doubt
43:52
at all, that the man you saw talking with Jack Ruby that night with
43:57
Lee Oswald? Could you possibly have been mistaken? The attorney took a long
44:02
final puff on his cigarette and then slowly snuffed it out in the ash tray.
44:09
He leaned back in his chair, classed his hand behind his head,
44:15
and without expression, looked me squarely in the eyes for what seemed like several
44:19
minutes. It was Oswald. I know it was him. So that is
44:31
the very earnest ROYLD. Jarnigan encounter. What do you guys think? What
44:38
do you believe. And I know I've talked about this encounter in the past
44:45
on the show in the context of this possibly being a not a Ruby Oswald
44:58
and a Ruby pray for the conversation. You know, I don't know.
45:07
It all seems a bit odd to me that a lawyer would just make all
45:13
this stuff up out of the blue. Um for what reason? I have
45:17
no idea. And it's also very interesting that on his second trip he was
45:30
astounded at John Agan's photographic memory of details of their conversation, end of their
45:37
conversation, specifically that he didn't even remember telling him. So it was John
45:46
Agan telling the truth. Who knows the interesting think about folks? All right?
45:57
Next up, let's talk about police protocols, whether or not the Dallas
46:06
PD followed them or not. In investigating this changes, I managed to find
46:10
a fifty page report to all the dogs, the Dallas Police collection of evidence
46:20
handling your evidence witnesses, whether or not a match the state protocols the federal
46:25
protocols in place at the time in nineteen sixty three. Of course, we're
46:31
not going to go through the entire fifty page report, but it is interesting.
46:35
You can find it out there. It starts off kind of like this,
46:39
so I'll just hit the highlights. I'm not going to read the whole
46:42
thing to you, because, like I said, it is fifty pages long
46:45
and I'm afraid my voice will die ten pages. It starts off fifty goals.
46:53
The Dallas Police Department was to provide a quality, comprehensive, and impartial
46:58
investigation of the Texans school Bopository in order to provide irrefutable evidence in the murder
47:04
of President Kennedy. The basic processes for preserving, photographing, and collecting physical
47:12
evidence used at the Texas school book Depository were flawed. Dallas Police Department used
47:17
inferior techniques to develop latent fingerprint evidence, neglected the document, protect and collect
47:24
all potential evidence in a timely manner. It may have inadvertently disregarded to any
47:30
evidence that they could have identified an accomplice or exonerated Oswald altogether. However,
47:37
why would they do that with the world watching? Perhaps confirmation bias drove an
47:44
investigation that was below nationally acceptable standards. Perhaps stress precipitated the continent phenomena of
47:51
unconscious and implicit habits. There are people who believe the Dallas Police department did
47:57
an exemplary job working to crimes scenes of the Texas school Book Depository and others.
48:02
Those supporters stressed the crime scene investigative standards of today should not be used
48:07
to judge work completed in nineteen sixty three. However, Dallas Police is accountable
48:14
for complying with the well published and generally accepted standards of nineteen sixty three and
48:20
to the self proclaimed procedures of their own departiament. Dallas Police is resolutely established
48:25
to be severely deficient, discounting forever the myth that they followed cretiball in processing
48:31
the school book Depository and the shooting death Kennedy. So there's the setup,
48:45
and let's see if we can find here the list of acceptable in nineteen sixty
48:57
three practices. Here we go. These are the national investigative Standards of nineteen
49:02
sixty three. It starts out the television series CSI Crime Scene Investigation and other
49:09
similar programs for trade the modern crime scene investigators as highly trained, mologe educated
49:17
technicians who have received extensive specialized training and all disciplines of crime scene investigation and
49:25
evidence collection. In the nineteen sixties, crime scene investigators rarely had special training
49:32
in the collection of physical or trace evidence. They relied on the Taget and
49:37
Baggett method. The emphasis was placed on detectives catching the perpetrator using their people
49:44
skills, putting little or no emphasis on crime scene investigation and investigations many excuse
49:52
me. For many agencies, the physical evidence was only a minor part of
49:54
the investigation. You used to confirm with detectives that already determined. Although there
50:00
was no certifications to ensure proficiency and no specific experience with training requirements at the
50:07
time of the assassination, there were generally accepted national standards for processing a crime
50:14
scene. Paul L. Kirt in Crime Investigation from nineteen fifty three documented the
50:21
criteria for these standards, and here they go. Number one, secure the
50:27
scene to protect potential evidence and prevent witnesses from leaving the scene, and apprehend
50:32
suspects. All right, let's take this one by one here, Now,
50:37
how do you think the Dallas police did was securing the scene, protecting potential
50:44
evidence, and preventing witnesses from leaving the scene and out there who needs sussivators.
50:51
Well, I can tell you they didn't apprehend the suspect. In the
50:55
school book. If you believe the second room lunch the counter they had one
51:04
and let him go allegedly. Um, I don't think they did a very
51:10
good securing the building beings, as how, employees were running in and out,
51:19
reporters running in and out to use the phone, people going in and
51:25
out through the front doors, the back doors, you know, for quite
51:30
some time, you know, I'll probably up to fifteen or twenty minutes after
51:35
the assassination. The scene was not secured very well, and at some point
51:44
Oswald left the building, you know, so number two reform and organized and
51:54
through searched. Now this wasn't done. We have you know, the Accountcil
52:06
Marian Baker and coolly running up these stairs to the fifth floor where they got
52:14
in an elevator, went to the seventh floor and came back down floor by
52:19
floor by floor. Baker did not wait for backup, he didn't fall from
52:28
back up. He immediately charged into the building sound solo and tried to apprehend
52:37
a suspect in the building. What he should have done is immediately called for
52:45
backup, hosted somebody at the front entrance of the building, and ran around
52:53
to the back of the building and covered that entrance exact and notified on the
53:00
radio for any police in the area to assist in securing the building. Don't
53:06
let anybody in around Once every entrance and exit was covered on that building.
53:15
Only then should they have proceeded inside and done an exhaustive floor by floor search,
53:25
starting into lower levels and working their way up. They might have actually
53:34
caught somebody had they done this quickly enough, instead of Marian Baker deciding to
53:40
be a superman that day and rush caphazardly into the building on his own.
53:51
But instead we got a very different outcome. So we're over two heres number
53:58
three photograph all potential evidence institu Okay, was this done? H I d
54:13
U been? Not? Really? I mean where was the We don't have
54:20
pictures of the rifle bag institu um. We know that the shells were picked
54:29
up and then thrown back down the floor. We don't know whether they were
54:34
photographed first where after they've been thrown back on the floor. Even pictures of
54:40
the sniper's nest we're taken after the boxes were moved out of the way to
54:49
search the area, So that any any picture you see of the sniper's nest
54:55
and how the boxes were sitting on the floor, and how there resting on
54:59
the windo, the still and all that jazz. That is actually a reconstruction
55:04
of what they thought it looked like when they first got up there. That
55:07
was not any photographs taken to that area. We're not institution, So how
55:15
much of this evidence can we rust? They would have had a lot of
55:21
problems going to court with this evidence and their collection of it with a good
55:27
lawyer that would have just accord them apart form apart Number four indicate on a
55:36
sketch the location of all potential evidence maybe pieces and parts of what were done
55:45
maybe maybe, But again we don't know whether they were done from memory or
55:52
they were done right there on the spot. So you know, the useless
56:01
Number five complete a detailed description of the location and condition of potential evidence.
56:10
So there should be a report, an organized report of where the evidence was
56:19
located on the floor. Now we do have some reports from different folks.
56:24
Um, you know, I think there's there's a couple of reports out there
56:31
that mentioned different people that found the rifle, different people that were identifying things
56:39
maybe with different people that found the shelves, but not one definitive statement of
56:47
evidence. Position number six, develop and collect fingerprints. Was this done immediately
57:00
and in scum or was this done after certain things we're taking downs of the
57:07
station. It's hard to say. But again, does it matter one way
57:13
or the other. If we have a suspect who worked in the building,
57:20
surely his fingerprints are going to be on things, So at that point doesn't
57:23
really matter. Does it really matter? Well, it kind of matters.
57:30
We are talking about things that don't belong in the building, like a rifle
57:36
and shells. You know, you have all these other people picking the ship
57:38
up and handling it with no gloves on. Does that contaminate the evidence before
57:45
you even try to fingerprint? Sure that was a very dumb move on their
57:52
part, very dumb move. Number seven collect the evidence, which they did.
58:06
We have pictures of it coming out the front door. Sure enough.
58:12
We have a Lieutenant Day carrying the rifle by the strata. But the front
58:16
door we have somebody else carrying out this gigantic rifle bag on a stick or
58:22
something. I don't know what was holding it up in there, but that's
58:29
about it. You know, surely the shelves couldn't fit in somebody's pocket.
58:35
But how good of a job did the Dallas Police do searching the school book
58:39
Depository. Well, obviously not a very good job, because you know what
58:45
they didn't find. They didn't find Oswald's clipboard. It was found by an
58:57
employee a couple of days after these fascination stuff behind some boxes. They're on
59:02
the sixth floor. No, it was apparently, hey, we're not doing
59:07
any more work, what do you need your clipboard for? This would have
59:13
been the clipboard that he put his orders on that he went around and collected
59:15
the books for. So how good of a job did the Dallas Police do
59:23
searching the building? It seems to me, you know, when you're looking
59:27
at Aliyah's film and you see pictures, there is way way, way too
59:32
many people in that building on that floor, searching, collecting and processing evidence.
59:45
Way too many. Not to mention people up there that shouldn't be up
59:50
there, such as school book employees, depository employees, news minute, people
1:00:00
with video cameras, people with movie cameras, people with still cameras. It
1:00:07
don't work for the police department. I'm glad they were up there because we
1:00:12
got to see some things, but they shouldn't have been allowed up there were
1:00:16
in the building at all. Lieutenant Carl Day was a supervisor for the Dallas
1:00:22
Police Department unit that investigated homicide homicide crime scene in a state leading the nation.
1:00:30
They recorded murders from nineteen sixty through sixty three eighty the Dallas population was
1:00:35
running fourteenth in the nation. Therefore, it's reasonable to believe a fifteen year
1:00:39
veteran of that unit would have had experience in investigating homicide scenes in a city
1:00:45
ranked fourteenth in the nation. It's also reasonable to expect Day was exposed to
1:00:51
multiple opportunities to training referencing national standards for investigating crime scenes, published works describing
1:00:57
in detail the generally recognized national standards for investigating crime scene to have been readily
1:01:01
available since the early fifties. Media coverage of trials such as the Sam Shepherd
1:01:07
trial and fifty six was extensive, detailed, and captured the attention of the
1:01:10
nation. The Shepherd trial focused exclusively on the crime scene investigation, and subsequent
1:01:16
reporting familiarized in public with national, nationally accepted investigative standards. The investigated procedures
1:01:24
presented in the Shepherd trial were still in effect in nineteen sixty three. The
1:01:30
following is a look at those standards and the subsequent evidence to demonstrate Dallas Police
1:01:34
Department either complied with or ignored by the owner. The Dallas Police Department,
1:01:38
and specifically Lieutenant Karl Day as the supervisor, should have been familiar with the
1:01:45
well published and generally accepted crime scene investigation standards of sixty three and a minimum
1:01:51
day, and other officers on the crime scene should have compiled are complied with
1:01:54
the self acclaimed procedures of their own department. The record, unfortunately indicates that
1:02:01
the first priority upon arrival at the crime scene is to ensure the safety of
1:02:05
officers and the public by determining that the perpetrator is not present. Once officers
1:02:09
are confident the perpetrator is not present, they are to obtain potential witnesses and
1:02:15
others found at the location. Comprehensive questioning of witnesses may assist with identifying a
1:02:20
perpetrator, providing a description of the perpetrator, and indicating items within the scene
1:02:25
the perpetrator may have touched or taken. National protocols indicate the secondary responsibility of
1:02:31
officers president is to protect the scene from contamination. This means restricting entry to
1:02:37
unauthorized personnel by placing offers as strategic locations in all points of entry. Dallas
1:02:44
police officers should have been posted immediately at each point of entry, permitting only
1:02:47
those individuals with a specific purpose to enter the building. By the early fifties,
1:02:53
nationally accepted standards of protecting the scenes from contamination as a currying potential witnesses
1:02:59
and so were well established. Personnel with access to the scene were to utilize
1:03:05
caution to prevent alteration of the scene, contamination of, or destruction of potential
1:03:10
evidence. Investigators were to wear cotton gloves to prevent depositing their own fingerprints on
1:03:16
items of evidence. Evidenciary items were not to be touched prior to their documentation
1:03:22
by photography and placement in a sketch. Officers were not to discord items such
1:03:28
as matches, cigarettes, disposable food containers or trash within the crime scene.
1:03:34
Were to be cognizant of small items of evidence that could be stepped on,
1:03:37
both things that could be smeared, transient evidence that may degrade or disappear quickly,
1:03:42
such as smooth but to be immediately documented in written form and essence until
1:03:47
all evidence was collected, the crime scene investigation complete, and the scene ready
1:03:52
to be released. The scene was to be carefully preserved. So foz is
1:04:00
there any mention by the Dallas police of the smell of gunpowder on the sixth
1:04:05
floor that day? I mean, a rifle was shot allegedly three times from
1:04:12
this building by this window. Did anybody say anything about the smell of smuggling
1:04:20
or the smell of gunpowder on the sixth floor? The answers no, the
1:04:28
answers no. Did they comply with national standards? Some there was some talking
1:04:38
to witnesses, There was some gathering of descriptions, and descriptions seminated the suspect,
1:04:43
but at that point they had no idea whether or not the suspect was
1:04:47
in the building or not. They assumed he was not because proper securing of
1:04:57
the building did not occur until twenty minutes after the assassination, and by then
1:05:04
your crime scene, it's fucked, it's contaminated. Now there's a say,
1:05:12
oh no, no, no. The Dallas police did a great job that
1:05:15
day. You know, Marian Bakers to be committed for rushing into the building
1:05:19
to hopefully get at the perpetrator and prevent further home to the public. Blah
1:05:24
blah blah, sealed off the building relatively quickly. YadA, YadA, YadA.
1:05:30
Now, the shooting of the President happened at about twelve thirty pm.
1:05:40
From twelve thirty one to twelve thirty three pm, Dallas Police officer Marian Baker
1:05:44
entered the school Book Depository searching for an unknown shoot. At approximately twelve forty
1:05:50
pm, Dallas Police Inspector Jay Herbert Sawyer ordered the building sealed. Okay,
1:05:57
so this is within ten minutes to the shooting. Herbert Sawyer orders the building
1:06:02
sealed. So how good a job to do sealing the building, folks?
1:06:10
Well, I'll tell you pretty shitty. Because of twelve fifty pm, ten
1:06:15
minutes after the orders sealed the building, I was dealing. Secret Service agent
1:06:18
Forest of Sorrels entered an unsecured door at the rear of the school Book Depository
1:06:24
building. Hi, notch job, folks. The curious nature of news media
1:06:34
is what makes them good at their job. Unfortunately, that curiosity I'm not
1:06:39
allowed to run and check, can be destructive to potential evidence unbeknownst to them,
1:06:44
resulting in an investigation with distorted conclusions. The official record contains several examples
1:06:48
of newsmen having access to the crime scene while the scene was still being processed
1:06:54
for physical evidence. FBI special agents Vincent Draine and James book Out interviewed all
1:07:00
day concerning persons other than police off holders which were present on the sixth floor
1:07:04
on the afternoon of the shooting, and their reports stated thus, on Saturday,
1:07:10
November twenty third, sixty three, many persons unknown to him had apparently
1:07:14
been on the sixth floor of the school book Depository building and had taken a
1:07:16
lot of photographs. In view of the fact that he noticed many empty film
1:07:21
pack cartons where the boxes were located, and the boxes had been rearranged apparently
1:07:27
for the purpose of taking photographs. FBI special agent drained and interview crime scene
1:07:32
investigator Robert Studebaker on September ninth concerning his activities on the sixth floor. Studebaker
1:07:39
told the agents there were literally dozens of news media representatives from radio and television
1:07:45
stations, newspapers, and magazines on the sixth floor. There were no restrictions
1:07:49
on newsmen and law forcement officers from moving freely about the building. Any of
1:07:56
these individuals may have possibly handled the four cardboard boxes that were sent the FBI
1:08:00
for examination stude Baker also confirmed and on Saturday, November twenty third, newsmen
1:08:06
were all over the building, particularly the sixth floor. The newsmen were generally
1:08:12
looking for and examining anything that might have been related to the shooting of President
1:08:16
Kennedy and the governor. Finally, day and Studebaker's statements to the FBI concerning
1:08:24
the press having unrestricted an unsupervised access to the sixth floor was corroborated by the
1:08:28
words Commission testimony of Ira Beers in nineteen sixty three, photographer for the Dallas
1:08:32
Morty News. Regrettably, Beers wasn't asked who had allowed the unstranged persons to
1:08:39
enter a crime scene while I was still being searched. Griffin, can you
1:08:44
give us an estimate of what time that would have been when you were up
1:08:46
there taking the pictures on the sixth floor? Beers, This would strictly be
1:08:53
a guest an estimate. Probably around four o'clock. It was quite late in
1:08:57
the afternoon, and probably later. Now one of your pictures that you took
1:09:00
were any of the objects that were allegedly found up there on the six floor
1:09:04
photographs such as the position of the rifle in the placement of the boxes and
1:09:10
other materials in the window from which the assassin isn't it from which the assassin
1:09:15
is believed to have shot beers. Yes, prior to admitting us to the
1:09:20
building, I made pictures of a sack, a very long narrow sack type
1:09:26
of affair that was brought from down there at pot bottles and pieces of chicken.
1:09:30
And I also made a picture of the rifle, which I believed was
1:09:32
Lieutenant crawl Day from down with Police Crime lad brought that and upon going in
1:09:39
the building, the photographed the area where the rifle was found. I photographed
1:09:43
the area around the window from which the assassin was supposedly seated. I moved
1:09:46
into that area made a picture from the window supposedly the window from which the
1:09:51
bullets were fired. That showed a little corner of boxes which possibly the rifle
1:09:56
rested on. It shows the street down below where the automobile was traveling when
1:10:00
the president was killed. Now, with such a high profile case, there
1:10:04
must have been an inordinate amount of pressure on the Dallas Police Department to provide
1:10:08
accurate and timely information to the public. Normally, limited information is released to
1:10:14
the media until a full understanding of the event can be developed and evidence has
1:10:17
been secured. Access to a crime scene via media should be denied to prevent
1:10:23
contamination or alteration of the scene and interference with investigative procedures. So there you
1:10:33
have at FOMUS, and then we talk a little bit about evidence contamination.
1:10:40
The Lieutenant Carl Day testified that after the rifle was discovered and approximately one twenty
1:10:47
two, it was photographed and he personally took it to the police department for
1:10:53
digital processing. They said he returned to the depository around three pm the same
1:11:00
day and remained there till six. No questions were asked the day after scene
1:11:03
had been secured while he was gone or under whose supervision student bating, Student
1:11:09
Baker was working day I went back to the school book depository and stayed there.
1:11:15
I was around three that I got back, and I was in the
1:11:16
building until about six, directing the other officers as to what we needed and
1:11:21
way of photographs and some drawings and so forth, dealing what did you do
1:11:27
when you got back? What photographs did you take? Day we went,
1:11:30
We made at the outside photographs of the streets. We made more photographs inside
1:11:35
and did further checking for prints by using dust on the boxes around the window.
1:11:42
So you know this is only after river. You have, you know,
1:11:47
a ton of Dallas police, a ton of Sheriff's deputies, secret service
1:11:56
employees, all having been on the building answer the shots. So it's just
1:12:03
shoddy police shotting. Let's talk a little bit about chain of custody focus.
1:12:11
Chain of custody is a legal term that refers to the ability to guarantee the
1:12:14
identity and integrity of items collected it as evidence on a crime scene. The
1:12:18
purposes of litigation, it is necessary to have a written record the documents to
1:12:24
possession, handling, and location of evidence from the moment it is collected until
1:12:29
it is used in corneal A well maintained chain of custody in addition to assuring
1:12:33
contamination alteration has not taken place, the chain of custody establishes proof that the
1:12:39
item selected at the crime scene is the same evidence that is presented in a
1:12:42
court of law. Based on Day's testimony, it appears the chain of custody
1:12:46
for the case Singes is questionable. The envelope was unsealed and the names of
1:12:50
persons possessing physical possession and a note of the corresponding time period were not documented.
1:12:57
Apparently from the time of collection that approximately until at ten pm that evening.
1:13:01
It is unknown who possessed the casing. Belon, that the shells been
1:13:06
been out of your possession then day mister Simms had the shells from the time
1:13:13
they were moved from the building or he took them from me at that time,
1:13:18
and the shells I did not see again until around ten o'clock. Belan,
1:13:23
who gave them to you? At ten o'clock day? They were in
1:13:26
this group of evidence being collected to turn over to the FBI. I don't
1:13:29
know who brought them back, Belan. Was the envelope sealed? Day No,
1:13:34
Sir Belan, Had it been sealed when you gave it to mister Simms?
1:13:41
Day no, Sir Belon, was the envelope ever sealed? Day No,
1:13:46
Sir No, Sir No. In direct conflict with Day's testimony, Dallas
1:13:53
Police Crime Seemed Detective Richard Simms testifying who did not or stream retain possession of
1:13:59
the casings when they were collected saven I picked him up from the floor and
1:14:02
he had an envelope there and he held the envelope ballpen ball. He didn't
1:14:06
take them in your possession, did you sis, No, sir, I
1:14:11
don't believe I did. You can't make this stuff up, folks. There's
1:14:18
no clear concise tain of fustody to the possession from jail casings. Playing the
1:14:26
simple and let's talk a little bit about souvenirs, folks. Some of the
1:14:33
evidence collected by the Dallas Police Department Dury's investigation were kept as souvenirs by some
1:14:40
members of the police department as evidence and Gary Savage JFK First Day Evidence.
1:14:45
Savage describes how his uncle, Rusty Livingston, a detective assign to the Dallas
1:14:50
Crime Lamp at the time of the assassination, admitted he kept five original photographs
1:14:56
showing fingerprints located on the trigger housing of the rifle allegedly used by the Oswald.
1:15:02
An original fingerprint card taken from Oswald and the Morgue was also retained by
1:15:05
Livingston. Savage claims Livingston kept five eight by ten photographs that were never forwarded
1:15:12
to the Warrant Commission as a personal momento. His action was clearly a breach
1:15:16
of the chain of custody for evidence and the criminal investigation of Kennedy's death.
1:15:21
It is rumored the Dallas Police Sargeant Gerald Hill provided evidentiary photographs to author Judy
1:15:28
Bonner from her book Investigation of a Homicide, The Murder of John F.
1:15:31
Kennedy in nineteen sixty nine. Detective Studebaker, who took many of the crime
1:15:36
scene photographs inside the depository, told the House Select Committee that he had made
1:15:41
numerous copies of evidence photos for fellow officers. The HSCA received first generation photographs
1:15:47
and quotes, meaning that they were made directly from the original negatives from such
1:15:55
individuals as the widow of Dallas police officer Roscoe White, of George de Mooreshield,
1:16:00
and Dallas Detective Richard Stovall. Police are ethically obligated to observe the integrity
1:16:08
of the investigation and their agency's reputation. It is important to prevent the appearance
1:16:12
of impropriety and unbiased investigation on the part of those whose duty it was to
1:16:16
conduct a fair investigation. Reporting of such items related to assassination investigation may have
1:16:23
not been illegal, but it certainly seems unethical. So, yeah, you
1:16:28
know, there's a big problem when you have the famous backyard photograph and nev
1:16:39
Marina testifying to taking one photograph and then another version of the photograph pops up,
1:16:47
and another version of the photo pops up. And you know, all
1:16:56
of this stuff should have been in evidence, it should have been amported to
1:16:59
the War Commission, and it was not. Um. So there's all kinds
1:17:04
of things wrong with the way that the police and quote investigated this assassination.
1:17:18
A good lawyer could have ripped this case apart in court very easily, at
1:17:29
least, you know, insofar as much of the quote unquote official evidence.
1:17:35
Good luck proving anything when you're chaining custody or social screwed up. Your your
1:17:43
protocols are social screwed up. You didn't follow the procedure standards for the time
1:17:49
to do anything into your vestigation. Um, it was just a mess from
1:17:56
top to bob. So anybody what ever says Dallas place did a great job,
1:18:03
you can say, no, they did not. No, they did
1:18:06
not. I mean, look at the circus that was in the in the
1:18:13
Dallas police headquarters. You saw how many news people were lining always when they're
1:18:18
trying to walk Oswald around there. I mean they're literally two inches away from
1:18:25
Oswald, sticking recorders in his face and blasting off pipoons and it was a
1:18:30
circus, that fiasco, a circus side show, all for the benefit plus
1:18:41
the world leading gout and not so much for the integrity of the investigation into
1:18:48
Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination. Anyway, that's it for me, Folks.
1:18:55
Follow along on Twitter and TikTok at the Loan Going seven face book Long
1:19:00
Gum on Facebook page, on YouTube, search for the Long Gum and podcast
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channel like subscribe and ring the bell to getting notified. That's right. Thank
1:19:12
you again everyone for listening and following along. This is your boy. The
1:19:15
trip will be big bad Bob and he is oh every three and he was
1:20:00
playing a chill and everyone who wast ground she's a man. Don't believe for
1:20:15
one that to tell you the be, the be, the life, and
1:20:31
to tell you the bating that chill chatain Yet the little boy waiting long was
1:21:00
so wild. The trumper rup and be gone the couple the p I do
1:21:09
with ang and play a simple song. Don't be one tell you he bel
1:21:34
have to tell you the bigging thing that you champain away. Ah we right,
1:21:58
we rather ver away to know my rain from me A can of him.
1:22:03
We got him head and he fell down and back head of his card
1:22:09
one was on him head and the candy card on on down one. N
1:22:39
the biggy, that duty kid. Yeah away, I'm where away m h
1:23:06
bunder the lass. Run to the point. H