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Why the Enneagram Isn't Ancient: Separating Fact from Fiction · The Awareness to Action Enneagram Podcast

• 0:01
  Welcome
• 0:01
  back
• 0:02
  to
• 0:02
  another
• 0:02
  Awareness
• 0:02
  to
• 0:03
  Action
• 0:03
  Enneagram
• 0:03
  podcast.
• 0:04
  My
• 0:04
  name
• 0:04
  is
• 0:04
  Creek
• 0:04
  and
• 0:05
  I'm
• 0:05
  with
• 0:05
  my
• 0:05
  antiquarian
• 0:07
  co-hosts,
• 0:08
  Mario
• 0:08
  Sikora
• 0:10
  and
• 0:10
  María
• 0:10
  José
• 0:10
  Munita.
• 0:12
  Any
• 0:13
  guess
• 0:13
  as
• 0:14
  to
• 0:14
  the
• 0:14
  definition
• 0:14
  of
• 0:15
  that
• 0:15
  word?
• 0:15
  Old.
• 0:15
  Ancient.
• 0:17
  Well,
• 0:18
  it's
• 0:18
  the
• 0:18
  study
• 0:19
  of
• 0:19
  the
• 0:19
  old,
• 0:20
  I
• 0:20
  believe.
• 0:20
  Right?
• 0:20
  Yeah,
• 0:21
  yeah,
• 0:21
  yeah.
• 0:21
  It's
• 0:22
  maintaining.
• 0:23
  Wait,
• 0:24
  no
• 0:24
  no
• 0:24
  no.
• 0:24
  Sorry,
• 0:25
  wrong
• 0:25
  one.
• 0:25
  Deeply
• 0:26
  interested
• 0:27
  in
• 0:27
  the
• 0:27
  past
• 0:27
  or
• 0:28
  history.
• 0:28
  Almost
• 0:28
  scholarly.
• 0:29
  Almost
• 0:31
  scholarly.
• 0:32
  Scholarly.
• 0:32
  Yes.
• 0:33
  So
• 0:34
  today
• 0:34
  we're
• 0:35
  talking
• 0:35
  about
• 0:36
  the
• 0:36
  history
• 0:36
  again,
• 0:37
  as
• 0:38
  some
• 0:38
  of
• 0:38
  you
• 0:38
  may
• 0:39
  be
• 0:39
  aware
• 0:39
  of,
• 0:39
  there's
• 0:40
  a
• 0:41
  bit
• 0:41
  of
• 0:41
  a
• 0:41
  scuffle
• 0:42
  happening
• 0:42
  on
• 0:42
  the
• 0:42
  interwebs
• 0:44
  as
• 0:44
  to
• 0:46
  what
• 0:46
  is
• 0:46
  the.
• 0:47
  Where's
• 0:47
  the
• 0:48
  like.
• 0:48
  People
• 0:49
  got
• 0:49
  nothing
• 0:49
  better
• 0:49
  to
• 0:49
  talk
• 0:50
  about.
• 0:52
  Fascinating.
• 0:53
  I'm
• 0:54
  being
• 0:54
  forced
• 0:55
  to
• 0:55
  go
• 0:55
  and
• 0:56
  read
• 0:57
  all
• 0:57
  the
• 0:57
  comments
• 0:58
  just
• 0:59
  to
• 0:59
  be
• 0:59
  informed.
• 1:01
  It
• 1:01
  feels
• 1:01
  like
• 1:01
  my
• 1:01
  responsibility
• 1:02
  to
• 1:02
  be
• 1:02
  informed.
• 1:03
  But,
• 1:04
  you
• 1:04
  know,
• 1:05
  I.
• 1:06
  But
• 1:07
  you
• 1:07
  don't
• 1:07
  really.
• 1:08
  Yeah,
• 1:09
  but
• 1:10
  Mario
• 1:10
  and
• 1:10
  I
• 1:10
  talked
• 1:11
  about.
• 1:11
  This
• 1:11
  like
• 1:11
  a
• 1:11
  normal
• 1:12
  human
• 1:12
  being.
• 1:12
  Yeah,
• 1:13
  Mario
• 1:14
  and
• 1:14
  I
• 1:14
  talked
• 1:14
  about
• 1:15
  this
• 1:15
  yesterday
• 1:16
  and
• 1:17
  I'm
• 1:17
  like,
• 1:17
  listen,
• 1:18
  I
• 1:18
  don't
• 1:18
  care
• 1:19
  where
• 1:19
  the
• 1:19
  enneagram
• 1:19
  came
• 1:19
  from.
• 1:21
  Does
• 1:21
  it
• 1:21
  work?
• 1:22
  Like,
• 1:23
  I
• 1:24
  love
• 1:24
  history.
• 1:24
  I
• 1:25
  think
• 1:25
  it's
• 1:25
  important
• 1:26
  to
• 1:26
  have
• 1:26
  good
• 1:26
  history
• 1:27
  because
• 1:27
  it
• 1:28
  does
• 1:28
  affect
• 1:29
  how
• 1:29
  we
• 1:29
  see
• 1:29
  the
• 1:29
  world
• 1:30
  today,
• 1:30
  how
• 1:30
  we.
• 1:30
  So
• 1:31
  we
• 1:31
  don't
• 1:31
  repeat
• 1:31
  it.
• 1:32
  But
• 1:32
  then,
• 1:33
  Mario,
• 1:33
  you
• 1:34
  also
• 1:34
  said,
• 1:35
  another
• 1:36
  reason
• 1:37
  is
• 1:37
  how
• 1:38
  you
• 1:38
  do
• 1:38
  one
• 1:38
  thing
• 1:39
  is
• 1:39
  how
• 1:39
  you
• 1:39
  do
• 1:39
  everything.
• 1:40
  And
• 1:41
  I
• 1:42
  think
• 1:42
  that
• 1:43
  makes
• 1:43
  me
• 1:44
  care
• 1:44
  a
• 1:44
  little
• 1:44
  bit
• 1:45
  more.
• 1:46
  How
• 1:47
  we
• 1:47
  figure
• 1:47
  out
• 1:48
  what
• 1:48
  is
• 1:48
  truth
• 1:49
  in
• 1:49
  this
• 1:49
  regard
• 1:50
  will
• 1:50
  affect
• 1:51
  all
• 1:51
  of
• 1:51
  our
• 1:51
  other
• 1:52
  claims,
• 1:52
  all
• 1:52
  of
• 1:52
  our
• 1:52
  other
• 1:53
  work,
• 1:54
  and
• 1:55
  will
• 1:56
  shroud
• 1:57
  how
• 1:57
  we
• 1:57
  see
• 1:57
  the
• 1:57
  world.
• 1:58
  Yeah.
• 1:58
  So
• 1:59
  just
• 1:59
  to
• 2:00
  give
• 2:00
  context
• 2:00
  to
• 2:00
  what
• 2:00
  you're
• 2:01
  referring
• 2:01
  to,
• 2:01
  Creek,
• 2:01
  there's
• 2:02
  been.
• 2:02
  On
• 2:02
  one
• 2:02
  of
• 2:02
  the
• 2:03
  Enneagram
• 2:03
  forums,
• 2:04
  look,
• 2:05
  I
• 2:05
  had
• 2:05
  a
• 2:05
  little
• 2:06
  bee
• 2:06
  in
• 2:06
  my
• 2:06
  bonnet
• 2:06
  over
• 2:07
  some
• 2:07
  things
• 2:08
  I
• 2:08
  heard.
• 2:08
  And
• 2:10
  one
• 2:10
  of
• 2:10
  my
• 2:10
  favorite
• 2:12
  opening,
• 2:13
  one
• 2:13
  of
• 2:13
  my
• 2:14
  favorite
• 2:14
  passages
• 2:14
  in
• 2:15
  all
• 2:15
  of
• 2:15
  literature
• 2:15
  is
• 2:15
  the
• 2:16
  opening
• 2:16
  of
• 2:16
  Moby
• 2:16
  Dick,
• 2:17
  where
• 2:17
  he's
• 2:18
  just
• 2:18
  called
• 2:18
  me
• 2:18
  Ishmael.
• 2:19
  And
• 2:19
  then
• 2:19
  he
• 2:19
  talks
• 2:19
  about
• 2:19
  how
• 2:20
  every
• 2:21
  so
• 2:21
  often
• 2:21
  he
• 2:21
  just
• 2:23
  needs
• 2:23
  to
• 2:24
  vent
• 2:24
  his
• 2:24
  spleen
• 2:25
  and
• 2:25
  get
• 2:25
  out
• 2:25
  to
• 2:26
  sea
• 2:27
  or
• 2:27
  else
• 2:27
  he's
• 2:27
  going
• 2:27
  to
• 2:28
  step
• 2:28
  into
• 2:28
  the
• 2:28
  street
• 2:29
  and
• 2:29
  start
• 2:29
  knocking
• 2:29
  people's
• 2:30
  hats
• 2:30
  off.
• 2:30
  Right?
• 2:31
  And
• 2:31
  I
• 2:31
  see
• 2:31
  it
• 2:31
  coming.
• 2:34
  Yeah.
• 2:34
  Maria
• 2:35
  Jose
• 2:35
  has
• 2:35
  witnessed
• 2:36
  this
• 2:36
  so
• 2:36
  many.
• 2:37
  Times
• 2:37
  coming
• 2:37
  from
• 2:38
  afar.
• 2:38
  So
• 2:38
  whenever
• 2:39
  she
• 2:39
  says,
• 2:39
  should
• 2:40
  I
• 2:40
  post
• 2:40
  this?
• 2:41
  Sure,
• 2:41
  go
• 2:41
  ahead.
• 2:41
  And,
• 2:41
  you
• 2:42
  know,
• 2:42
  I
• 2:42
  know
• 2:43
  that
• 2:43
  no
• 2:44
  matter
• 2:44
  how
• 2:44
  much
• 2:44
  I
• 2:45
  try
• 2:45
  to
• 2:45
  stop
• 2:45
  it,
• 2:47
  he
• 2:47
  needs
• 2:47
  to
• 2:48
  get
• 2:48
  it
• 2:48
  up.
• 2:49
  It's
• 2:49
  like
• 2:49
  those
• 2:49
  people
• 2:50
  that
• 2:50
  track
• 2:50
  earthquakes.
• 2:51
  It's
• 2:51
  like,
• 2:51
  oh
• 2:52
  yeah,
• 2:52
  here
• 2:52
  it
• 2:53
  comes.
• 2:53
  The
• 2:53
  seismic
• 2:54
  event
• 2:54
  is
• 2:54
  happening.
• 2:58
  And
• 2:58
  so
• 2:59
  what
• 2:59
  my
• 2:59
  post
• 3:00
  was
• 3:00
  about
• 3:00
  is
• 3:01
  that,
• 3:01
  you
• 3:01
  know,
• 3:02
  my
• 3:02
  assertion
• 3:03
  that
• 3:03
  the
• 3:03
  enneagram
• 3:04
  is
• 3:04
  not
• 3:04
  ancient.
• 3:05
  And
• 3:06
  if
• 3:06
  anyone
• 3:07
  has
• 3:07
  any
• 3:07
  evidence
• 3:08
  to
• 3:08
  the
• 3:08
  contrary,
• 3:09
  please
• 3:09
  make
• 3:10
  me
• 3:10
  enlighten
• 3:11
  me
• 3:11
  as
• 3:11
  to
• 3:12
  it.
• 3:12
  And,
• 3:13
  you
• 3:13
  know,
• 3:13
  and
• 3:13
  it
• 3:14
  caused
• 3:14
  quite
• 3:14
  a
• 3:14
  stir
• 3:15
  and,
• 3:15
  you
• 3:15
  know,
• 3:15
  quite
• 3:15
  a
• 3:15
  bit
• 3:16
  of
• 3:16
  back
• 3:16
  and
• 3:16
  forth
• 3:16
  and
• 3:16
  that
• 3:17
  sort
• 3:17
  of
• 3:17
  thing.
• 3:17
  And
• 3:18
  I
• 3:18
  will
• 3:18
  note
• 3:19
  that
• 3:20
  despite
• 3:20
  all
• 3:21
  the
• 3:21
  pushback,
• 3:22
  I've
• 3:23
  yet
• 3:23
  to
• 3:23
  see
• 3:23
  any
• 3:23
  actual
• 3:24
  evidence
• 3:25
  of,
• 3:25
  you
• 3:26
  know.
• 3:27
  But
• 3:28
  it
• 3:28
  has.
• 3:29
  I'm
• 3:30
  not
• 3:30
  prepared
• 3:30
  to
• 3:31
  see
• 3:31
  it,
• 3:31
  apparently,
• 3:31
  you
• 3:32
  know.
• 3:32
  So
• 3:32
  I
• 3:32
  have
• 3:33
  not
• 3:33
  done
• 3:33
  the
• 3:34
  deep
• 3:34
  spiritual
• 3:35
  work
• 3:35
  that
• 3:37
  empower
• 3:38
  me
• 3:38
  to
• 3:38
  see,
• 3:39
  you
• 3:40
  know,
• 3:40
  secrets
• 3:41
  and,
• 3:42
  you
• 3:42
  know,
• 3:43
  downloaded
• 3:44
  transmissions
• 3:45
  and
• 3:45
  these
• 3:45
  sort
• 3:45
  of
• 3:45
  things,
• 3:46
  I
• 3:46
  guess,
• 3:46
  but.
• 3:47
  So
• 3:47
  can
• 3:47
  we
• 3:48
  talk
• 3:48
  about.
• 3:48
  You're
• 3:48
  very
• 3:49
  uncomfortable,
• 3:49
  creek,
• 3:50
  adjacent
• 3:50
  to
• 3:50
  that
• 3:51
  real
• 3:51
  quick?
• 3:51
  I'm
• 3:52
  very
• 3:52
  uncomfortable.
• 3:59
  Steve.
• 4:00
  Creek,
• 4:00
  you
• 4:00
  gotta
• 4:00
  be
• 4:00
  careful.
• 4:01
  You
• 4:01
  get
• 4:01
  too
• 4:01
  close
• 4:01
  to
• 4:01
  the
• 4:02
  fire,
• 4:02
  man,
• 4:02
  you're
• 4:02
  gonna
• 4:03
  get
• 4:03
  burned,
• 4:03
  you
• 4:03
  know.
• 4:05
  Oh,
• 4:05
  man.
• 4:06
  I'm
• 4:06
  just
• 4:06
  trying
• 4:06
  to
• 4:07
  convince
• 4:07
  people
• 4:07
  that
• 4:07
  fire
• 4:08
  is
• 4:08
  friendly.
• 4:10
  Well,
• 4:11
  so
• 4:13
  what
• 4:14
  would
• 4:14
  be
• 4:14
  accepted
• 4:15
  as
• 4:16
  proof
• 4:16
  for
• 4:16
  you?
• 4:17
  What
• 4:17
  is
• 4:17
  how
• 4:18
  in
• 4:18
  your
• 4:19
  own
• 4:19
  journey?
• 4:20
  What
• 4:20
  have
• 4:20
  you
• 4:20
  discovered
• 4:21
  as
• 4:21
  verifiable?
• 4:23
  So,
• 4:24
  first
• 4:24
  of
• 4:24
  all,
• 4:25
  I
• 4:25
  mean,
• 4:25
  before
• 4:25
  we
• 4:25
  can
• 4:26
  even
• 4:26
  get
• 4:26
  into
• 4:26
  that,
• 4:27
  one
• 4:27
  of
• 4:27
  the
• 4:27
  things
• 4:27
  we
• 4:27
  have
• 4:28
  to
• 4:28
  do
• 4:28
  is.
• 4:29
  Crick,
• 4:30
  I
• 4:30
  love
• 4:30
  your
• 4:30
  question,
• 4:31
  but
• 4:31
  let
• 4:31
  me
• 4:31
  talk
• 4:31
  about
• 4:31
  something.
• 4:35
  Being
• 4:35
  a
• 4:35
  co
• 4:35
  host
• 4:36
  on
• 4:36
  this
• 4:36
  is
• 4:36
  just
• 4:36
  guessing
• 4:37
  where
• 4:37
  Mario
• 4:37
  wants
• 4:37
  to
• 4:38
  go.
• 4:39
  Enjoyed
• 4:40
  the
• 4:40
  ride?
• 4:42
  Yeah.
• 4:43
  Yeah.
• 4:47
  When
• 4:47
  we
• 4:47
  talk
• 4:47
  about
• 4:48
  the
• 4:48
  history
• 4:48
  of
• 4:49
  the
• 4:49
  enneagram.
• 4:49
  When
• 4:49
  we
• 4:50
  talk
• 4:50
  about
• 4:50
  how
• 4:51
  old
• 4:51
  the
• 4:51
  enneagram
• 4:52
  is,
• 4:52
  we
• 4:52
  have
• 4:52
  to
• 4:52
  first
• 4:53
  define
• 4:53
  what
• 4:53
  we
• 4:54
  mean
• 4:54
  by
• 4:54
  the
• 4:54
  enneagram,
• 4:55
  right?
• 4:55
  Because
• 4:56
  it
• 4:56
  is
• 4:56
  a
• 4:56
  term
• 4:57
  that
• 4:57
  people
• 4:57
  use
• 4:58
  loosely.
• 4:59
  And
• 4:59
  it
• 4:59
  can
• 4:59
  mean
• 5:00
  multiple
• 5:00
  things.
• 5:01
  So
• 5:01
  we
• 5:01
  have
• 5:01
  to
• 5:02
  ask
• 5:02
  ourselves,
• 5:03
  what
• 5:03
  do
• 5:03
  we
• 5:03
  mean
• 5:03
  when
• 5:03
  we're
• 5:04
  talking
• 5:04
  about
• 5:05
  the
• 5:06
  age
• 5:06
  of
• 5:06
  the
• 5:06
  enneagram
• 5:07
  and
• 5:07
  where
• 5:07
  the
• 5:07
  Enneagram
• 5:08
  came
• 5:08
  from?
• 5:08
  Okay,
• 5:09
  so
• 5:09
  there's
• 5:09
  a
• 5:10
  few
• 5:10
  ways
• 5:10
  we
• 5:10
  can
• 5:10
  think
• 5:11
  about
• 5:11
  it.
• 5:11
  Number
• 5:11
  one,
• 5:11
  we
• 5:11
  can
• 5:12
  think
• 5:12
  about
• 5:12
  the
• 5:12
  diagram
• 5:13
  itself.
• 5:14
  This
• 5:14
  nine
• 5:15
  pointed
• 5:15
  diagram
• 5:16
  that
• 5:16
  we're
• 5:16
  all
• 5:16
  familiar
• 5:17
  with.
• 5:17
  Not
• 5:18
  just
• 5:18
  any
• 5:18
  nine
• 5:18
  pointed
• 5:19
  diagram,
• 5:19
  but
• 5:19
  this
• 5:20
  nine
• 5:20
  pointed
• 5:21
  diagram.
• 5:23
  Where
• 5:23
  did
• 5:23
  it
• 5:23
  come
• 5:24
  from?
• 5:24
  And
• 5:24
  what
• 5:25
  evidence
• 5:26
  do
• 5:26
  we
• 5:27
  have
• 5:27
  of
• 5:28
  where
• 5:28
  it
• 5:28
  came
• 5:28
  from?
• 5:29
  Then
• 5:30
  we
• 5:30
  can
• 5:30
  start
• 5:30
  talking
• 5:30
  about
• 5:31
  the
• 5:31
  enneagram
• 5:32
  as
• 5:32
  a
• 5:32
  process
• 5:33
  model,
• 5:33
  right?
• 5:34
  And
• 5:34
  again,
• 5:35
  this
• 5:35
  goes
• 5:36
  to
• 5:36
  Gurdjieff.
• 5:36
  And
• 5:37
  it's
• 5:37
  like,
• 5:37
  okay,
• 5:38
  it's
• 5:38
  this
• 5:38
  set
• 5:38
  of
• 5:38
  dynamics
• 5:39
  and
• 5:39
  so
• 5:39
  forth.
• 5:40
  Then
• 5:41
  we
• 5:41
  can
• 5:41
  start
• 5:41
  talking
• 5:41
  about
• 5:41
  the
• 5:42
  enneagram
• 5:42
  as
• 5:43
  a
• 5:43
  model
• 5:43
  of
• 5:43
  personality
• 5:44
  style.
• 5:45
  The
• 5:45
  Enneagram
• 5:46
  personality
• 5:47
  that
• 5:47
  we
• 5:47
  tend
• 5:48
  to
• 5:48
  focus
• 5:48
  on.
• 5:50
  And
• 5:50
  then
• 5:50
  finally,
• 5:52
  we
• 5:52
  can
• 5:53
  have
• 5:53
  a
• 5:53
  discussion
• 5:54
  about
• 5:55
  whether
• 5:55
  or
• 5:55
  not
• 5:55
  the
• 5:56
  enneagram
• 5:56
  of
• 5:57
  personality
• 5:58
  is.
• 5:59
  Incorporates
• 6:00
  older
• 6:01
  ideas.
• 6:03
  And
• 6:03
  this
• 6:03
  is
• 6:03
  where
• 6:04
  it
• 6:04
  gets
• 6:04
  messy.
• 6:05
  Right?
• 6:05
  Because
• 6:06
  what
• 6:06
  happens
• 6:07
  in
• 6:07
  these
• 6:07
  conversations
• 6:08
  is
• 6:09
  people
• 6:09
  assume
• 6:10
  that.
• 6:10
  Because
• 6:10
  people
• 6:11
  teaching
• 6:11
  the
• 6:11
  Enneagram
• 6:12
  today
• 6:13
  incorporates
• 6:15
  a
• 6:15
  bunch
• 6:15
  of
• 6:15
  old
• 6:16
  ideas,
• 6:18
  then
• 6:18
  the
• 6:18
  enneagram
• 6:19
  itself
• 6:20
  is
• 6:21
  old,
• 6:22
  but
• 6:22
  there's
• 6:22
  a
• 6:23
  fundamental
• 6:24
  logical
• 6:25
  flaw
• 6:26
  in
• 6:26
  that
• 6:26
  that
• 6:27
  people
• 6:27
  tend
• 6:27
  to
• 6:28
  keep
• 6:28
  getting
• 6:28
  tripped
• 6:29
  up
• 6:29
  over.
• 6:30
  And
• 6:31
  that
• 6:31
  is.
• 6:32
  And
• 6:32
  what
• 6:32
  might
• 6:32
  that
• 6:33
  be?
• 6:34
  I'm
• 6:35
  just
• 6:35
  checking
• 6:35
  to
• 6:35
  see
• 6:36
  if
• 6:36
  you're
• 6:36
  still
• 6:36
  listening
• 6:37
  here.
• 6:37
  So.
• 6:38
  So,
• 6:38
  look,
• 6:39
  the
• 6:39
  noise
• 6:39
  stops,
• 6:39
  so
• 6:40
  it
• 6:40
  forked
• 6:40
  my
• 6:40
  attention.
• 6:44
  Just
• 6:45
  because
• 6:47
  a
• 6:47
  new
• 6:47
  idea
• 6:48
  includes
• 6:50
  older
• 6:51
  information
• 6:52
  does
• 6:52
  not
• 6:52
  mean
• 6:53
  that
• 6:54
  that
• 6:54
  older
• 6:54
  information
• 6:55
  was
• 6:56
  the
• 6:56
  new
• 6:56
  idea.
• 6:57
  For
• 6:58
  example,
• 6:59
  okay?
• 7:00
  The
• 7:01
  Old
• 7:01
  Testament
• 7:01
  is
• 7:02
  part
• 7:02
  of
• 7:02
  the
• 7:02
  Christian
• 7:03
  Bible.
• 7:04
  This
• 7:05
  does
• 7:05
  not
• 7:05
  mean
• 7:05
  that
• 7:06
  the
• 7:06
  Jews
• 7:07
  were
• 7:07
  Christians
• 7:08
  or
• 7:08
  Christianity
• 7:09
  existed
• 7:10
  back
• 7:11
  then.
• 7:12
  We
• 7:12
  can
• 7:12
  use
• 7:13
  a
• 7:13
  million
• 7:14
  examples
• 7:14
  of
• 7:14
  this.
• 7:15
  Right?
• 7:15
  Calculus
• 7:16
  was
• 7:17
  created
• 7:18
  around
• 7:18
  the
• 7:18
  same
• 7:18
  time
• 7:19
  by
• 7:19
  both
• 7:19
  Newton
• 7:20
  and
• 7:20
  Leibniz.
• 7:22
  Leibniz
• 7:23
  independent.
• 7:25
  It
• 7:25
  includes
• 7:26
  addition
• 7:26
  and
• 7:27
  subtraction
• 7:27
  and
• 7:27
  all
• 7:28
  these
• 7:28
  other
• 7:28
  ideas
• 7:28
  that
• 7:29
  are
• 7:29
  really,
• 7:29
  really
• 7:29
  old.
• 7:30
  This
• 7:30
  does
• 7:31
  not
• 7:31
  mean
• 7:31
  that
• 7:32
  the
• 7:32
  ancient
• 7:32
  Sumerians
• 7:33
  were
• 7:33
  practicing
• 7:34
  calculus,
• 7:35
  just
• 7:35
  because
• 7:36
  calculus
• 7:36
  includes
• 7:37
  addition,
• 7:37
  subtraction,
• 7:38
  and
• 7:38
  so
• 7:39
  forth.
• 7:39
  Okay?
• 7:39
  So
• 7:40
  whenever
• 7:40
  there's
• 7:40
  the
• 7:41
  aggregation
• 7:42
  of
• 7:43
  things
• 7:43
  and
• 7:43
  the
• 7:43
  inclusion
• 7:44
  of
• 7:44
  something
• 7:45
  new
• 7:45
  and
• 7:45
  the
• 7:45
  branding,
• 7:46
  for
• 7:46
  lack
• 7:47
  of
• 7:47
  a
• 7:47
  better
• 7:47
  word,
• 7:47
  of
• 7:48
  something
• 7:48
  as
• 7:48
  a
• 7:49
  particular
• 7:49
  thing,
• 7:50
  we
• 7:51
  have
• 7:51
  to
• 7:51
  say,
• 7:51
  okay?
• 7:51
  That's
• 7:51
  where
• 7:51
  it
• 7:52
  started.
• 7:53
  And
• 7:55
  all
• 7:55
  evidence
• 7:56
  indicates
• 7:58
  that.
• 7:59
  All
• 7:59
  solid
• 8:00
  evidence
• 8:01
  indicates
• 8:02
  that
• 8:02
  the
• 8:03
  enneagram
• 8:03
  of
• 8:03
  personality
• 8:05
  starts
• 8:05
  with
• 8:05
  Oscar
• 8:06
  itchazzo.
• 8:07
  Okay?
• 8:08
  Very,
• 8:09
  very
• 8:09
  simple.
• 8:10
  I
• 8:11
  encourage
• 8:11
  people
• 8:12
  to
• 8:12
  go
• 8:12
  read
• 8:12
  his
• 8:13
  letters
• 8:13
  to
• 8:13
  the
• 8:14
  transpersonal
• 8:14
  community.
• 8:16
  You
• 8:16
  can
• 8:17
  find
• 8:17
  it.
• 8:17
  You
• 8:17
  just
• 8:17
  google
• 8:18
  it.
• 8:18
  Find
• 8:18
  it
• 8:18
  online.
• 8:18
  We'll
• 8:19
  have
• 8:19
  it
• 8:19
  in
• 8:19
  the
• 8:19
  show
• 8:19
  notes.
• 8:20
  Okay,
• 8:20
  good.
• 8:20
  It
• 8:20
  is
• 8:21
  a
• 8:21
  slog,
• 8:21
  I'm
• 8:22
  going
• 8:22
  to
• 8:22
  tell
• 8:22
  you,
• 8:22
  man.
• 8:22
  You
• 8:23
  know,
• 8:23
  zip
• 8:24
  your
• 8:24
  way
• 8:24
  through
• 8:24
  the
• 8:25
  first
• 8:25
  20
• 8:25
  or
• 8:25
  so
• 8:26
  pages.
• 8:26
  It's
• 8:26
  like
• 8:27
  40
• 8:27
  pages
• 8:27
  when
• 8:28
  you
• 8:28
  print
• 8:28
  it
• 8:28
  out.
• 8:29
  But
• 8:29
  he
• 8:29
  talks.
• 8:30
  He
• 8:30
  says,
• 8:30
  look
• 8:31
  stuff
• 8:31
  out.
• 8:32
  I
• 8:33
  do.
• 8:33
  I
• 8:33
  got
• 8:33
  it
• 8:33
  right
• 8:33
  here,
• 8:34
  man.
• 8:34
  I
• 8:34
  got
• 8:34
  it
• 8:34
  high.
• 8:34
  That's
• 8:35
  the
• 8:35
  Amazon
• 8:35
  in
• 8:35
  your
• 8:36
  hand
• 8:36
  right
• 8:36
  now.
• 8:36
  Exactly
• 8:37
  right.
• 8:37
  But
• 8:37
  I
• 8:38
  only
• 8:38
  printed
• 8:38
  out
• 8:39
  certain
• 8:39
  pages.
• 8:41
  But
• 8:42
  look,
• 8:42
  he
• 8:43
  explains
• 8:44
  where
• 8:45
  he
• 8:45
  got
• 8:45
  the
• 8:45
  ideas
• 8:45
  from,
• 8:46
  okay?
• 8:46
  Now,
• 8:47
  Chazzo
• 8:48
  is
• 8:49
  not
• 8:49
  the
• 8:49
  most
• 8:50
  reliable
• 8:50
  narrator,
• 8:51
  quite
• 8:51
  frankly.
• 8:51
  Okay?
• 8:52
  Because
• 8:52
  there
• 8:52
  was
• 8:53
  a.
• 8:53
  A
• 8:53
  bit
• 8:53
  of
• 8:54
  mythology
• 8:54
  working
• 8:55
  its
• 8:55
  way
• 8:55
  into
• 8:55
  what
• 8:55
  he
• 8:56
  was
• 8:56
  talking
• 8:56
  about,
• 8:57
  but
• 8:58
  nobody
• 8:59
  can
• 8:59
  point
• 9:00
  to
• 9:01
  anyone
• 9:02
  talking
• 9:02
  about
• 9:02
  nine
• 9:03
  personality
• 9:03
  types
• 9:04
  mapped
• 9:05
  to
• 9:05
  the
• 9:05
  Enneagram
• 9:06
  model
• 9:07
  called
• 9:08
  to
• 9:08
  the
• 9:08
  Enneagram
• 9:09
  taught
• 9:10
  in
• 9:10
  the
• 9:10
  same
• 9:10
  way
• 9:11
  we
• 9:11
  teach
• 9:11
  it
• 9:12
  prior
• 9:13
  to
• 9:13
  a
• 9:13
  Chazzo.
• 9:14
  Gurdjieff
• 9:15
  didn't
• 9:15
  do
• 9:15
  it.
• 9:15
  Okay?
• 9:16
  Gurdjieff
• 9:16
  had
• 9:16
  the
• 9:17
  diagram,
• 9:17
  but
• 9:18
  he
• 9:18
  did
• 9:18
  not
• 9:18
  map
• 9:19
  personality
• 9:19
  to
• 9:20
  it.
• 9:20
  Okay?
• 9:21
  So
• 9:22
  when
• 9:22
  there
• 9:22
  is
• 9:23
  no
• 9:23
  evidence
• 9:24
  to
• 9:24
  the
• 9:24
  contrary
• 9:25
  and
• 9:26
  you
• 9:26
  have
• 9:26
  a
• 9:26
  guy
• 9:27
  saying,
• 9:27
  hey,
• 9:28
  I
• 9:29
  created
• 9:29
  this,
• 9:30
  and
• 9:30
  here's
• 9:30
  how
• 9:30
  I
• 9:30
  came
• 9:31
  to
• 9:31
  it.
• 9:31
  And
• 9:32
  by
• 9:32
  the
• 9:32
  way,
• 9:33
  there's
• 9:33
  a
• 9:33
  very
• 9:33
  famous
• 9:34
  intellectual
• 9:35
  property
• 9:35
  legal
• 9:36
  case
• 9:38
  that
• 9:41
  acknowledged
• 9:42
  Ichazo's
• 9:43
  claims
• 9:44
  against
• 9:44
  other
• 9:44
  Enneagram
• 9:45
  teachers
• 9:46
  as
• 9:46
  the
• 9:47
  sole
• 9:47
  source
• 9:47
  of
• 9:48
  the
• 9:48
  enneagram
• 9:48
  of
• 9:49
  personality.
• 9:50
  Well,
• 9:50
  I'm
• 9:51
  sorry,
• 9:51
  folks.
• 9:51
  That's
• 9:52
  where
• 9:52
  it
• 9:52
  starts,
• 9:53
  right?
• 9:53
  So
• 9:54
  we
• 9:54
  can
• 9:54
  say
• 9:55
  the
• 9:55
  Enneagram
• 9:55
  includes
• 9:56
  old
• 9:56
  ideas,
• 9:57
  but
• 9:57
  we
• 9:57
  can't
• 9:58
  say
• 9:58
  the
• 9:58
  enneagram
• 9:58
  is
• 9:58
  old.
• 9:59
  I
• 9:59
  zoned
• 10:00
  out
• 10:00
  there
• 10:00
  for
• 10:00
  a
• 10:00
  second.
• 10:03
  Yeah.
• 10:04
  So
• 10:05
  if
• 10:05
  I'm
• 10:05
  using
• 10:06
  the
• 10:06
  enneagram
• 10:07
  and
• 10:07
  it
• 10:08
  works,
• 10:09
  yes.
• 10:10
  Why
• 10:10
  should
• 10:10
  I
• 10:11
  even
• 10:11
  bother
• 10:13
  asserting
• 10:13
  that
• 10:14
  it's
• 10:14
  old
• 10:14
  or
• 10:14
  nothing?
• 10:15
  What's
• 10:16
  the
• 10:16
  difference?
• 10:16
  What
• 10:17
  difference
• 10:17
  does
• 10:17
  it
• 10:17
  make?
• 10:18
  So
• 10:19
  here's
• 10:20
  the
• 10:20
  challenge
• 10:21
  that
• 10:21
  we
• 10:21
  encounter.
• 10:22
  We
• 10:23
  have
• 10:24
  Enneagram
• 10:25
  teachers
• 10:26
  out
• 10:26
  there
• 10:26
  telling
• 10:27
  people
• 10:28
  it's
• 10:28
  an
• 10:28
  ancient
• 10:29
  personality
• 10:30
  system,
• 10:31
  that
• 10:31
  it's
• 10:31
  part
• 10:32
  of
• 10:32
  some
• 10:33
  perennial
• 10:33
  philosophy
• 10:36
  that
• 10:36
  is
• 10:36
  thousands
• 10:37
  and
• 10:37
  thousands
• 10:38
  and
• 10:38
  thousands
• 10:38
  of
• 10:39
  years
• 10:39
  old.
• 10:40
  So
• 10:40
  when
• 10:40
  I
• 10:40
  go
• 10:40
  into
• 10:41
  an
• 10:41
  organization
• 10:42
  and
• 10:43
  somebody
• 10:43
  says
• 10:43
  to
• 10:43
  me,
• 10:44
  oh,
• 10:44
  the
• 10:44
  enneagram,
• 10:45
  isn't
• 10:45
  that
• 10:45
  that
• 10:46
  ancient
• 10:46
  personality
• 10:47
  system?
• 10:49
  And
• 10:49
  I
• 10:49
  have
• 10:49
  to
• 10:50
  say,
• 10:53
  no,
• 10:54
  okay,
• 10:55
  that
• 10:56
  undermines
• 10:57
  the
• 10:57
  credibility
• 10:58
  of
• 10:58
  it.
• 10:59
  And
• 10:59
  more
• 10:59
  and
• 10:59
  more
• 11:00
  people
• 11:00
  are
• 11:01
  encountering
• 11:01
  the
• 11:02
  enneagram.
• 11:03
  And
• 11:05
  when
• 11:06
  there
• 11:06
  are
• 11:06
  these
• 11:06
  mythologies
• 11:07
  about
• 11:08
  it
• 11:08
  and
• 11:08
  people
• 11:09
  realize,
• 11:09
  well,
• 11:09
  wait
• 11:09
  a
• 11:10
  minute,
• 11:11
  what's
• 11:11
  going
• 11:11
  on
• 11:12
  here?
• 11:12
  That
• 11:13
  people
• 11:13
  are
• 11:13
  claiming
• 11:14
  that
• 11:15
  this
• 11:15
  is
• 11:15
  thousands
• 11:15
  of
• 11:16
  years
• 11:16
  old
• 11:16
  when
• 11:17
  it's
• 11:17
  not,
• 11:18
  it
• 11:18
  undermines
• 11:19
  the
• 11:19
  credibility
• 11:19
  of
• 11:20
  the
• 11:20
  system,
• 11:20
  okay?
• 11:21
  And
• 11:21
  it
• 11:22
  makes
• 11:22
  it
• 11:22
  harder
• 11:23
  to
• 11:23
  be
• 11:23
  taken
• 11:24
  seriously
• 11:25
  when
• 11:25
  teaching
• 11:25
  it.
• 11:26
  Okay,
• 11:26
  so,
• 11:27
  all
• 11:27
  right,
• 11:27
  so
• 11:27
  maybe,
• 11:28
  you
• 11:28
  know,
• 11:28
  somebody
• 11:29
  doesn't
• 11:29
  care
• 11:29
  about
• 11:30
  that
• 11:30
  because
• 11:30
  they're
• 11:30
  not
• 11:31
  teaching
• 11:31
  it
• 11:31
  to
• 11:31
  people.
• 11:32
  Isn't
• 11:32
  there
• 11:33
  something
• 11:33
  to
• 11:33
  be
• 11:34
  said
• 11:35
  for
• 11:37
  knowing
• 11:38
  what's
• 11:38
  true
• 11:38
  and
• 11:39
  what's
• 11:39
  not?
• 11:39
  I
• 11:40
  mean,
• 11:40
  don't
• 11:40
  we
• 11:41
  study
• 11:41
  the
• 11:41
  Enneagram
• 11:43
  to
• 11:43
  see
• 11:43
  the
• 11:43
  world
• 11:44
  more
• 11:44
  clearly
• 11:45
  as
• 11:45
  it
• 11:45
  is
• 11:46
  rather
• 11:46
  than
• 11:47
  through
• 11:47
  our
• 11:47
  illusions?
• 11:48
  Okay?
• 11:49
  And
• 11:50
  shouldn't
• 11:50
  part
• 11:50
  of
• 11:51
  that
• 11:51
  be
• 11:52
  wanting
• 11:52
  to
• 11:52
  know
• 11:53
  what
• 11:53
  fact
• 11:53
  claims
• 11:54
  we
• 11:54
  make
• 11:55
  are
• 11:55
  true
• 11:56
  and
• 11:56
  which
• 11:56
  are
• 11:57
  not?
• 11:57
  Now,
• 11:57
  if
• 11:58
  you
• 11:58
  don't
• 11:58
  care,
• 11:58
  that's
• 11:58
  fine.
• 12:00
  But
• 12:00
  if
• 12:00
  you're
• 12:00
  going
• 12:01
  to
• 12:01
  make
• 12:01
  claims
• 12:03
  that
• 12:04
  are
• 12:04
  not
• 12:04
  factually
• 12:05
  correct
• 12:06
  or
• 12:07
  evidentiarily
• 12:09
  supported,
• 12:11
  then
• 12:12
  you
• 12:13
  shouldn't
• 12:13
  be
• 12:13
  doing
• 12:13
  this.
• 12:14
  You
• 12:14
  can't
• 12:14
  call
• 12:15
  yourself
• 12:15
  a
• 12:16
  rigorous
• 12:16
  seeker
• 12:17
  after
• 12:17
  truth.
• 12:18
  And
• 12:18
  as
• 12:19
  Creek
• 12:19
  sai
• 12:19
  earlier,
• 12:20
  quite
• 12:20
  frankly,
• 12:21
  the
• 12:21
  way
• 12:22
  we
• 12:22
  think
• 12:22
  about
• 12:23
  things,
• 12:25
  it
• 12:26
  can't
• 12:26
  just
• 12:26
  be
• 12:27
  situational,
• 12:28
  okay?
• 12:28
  If
• 12:29
  we
• 12:29
  want
• 12:29
  to
• 12:29
  see
• 12:30
  clearly,
• 12:31
  we
• 12:31
  have
• 12:31
  to
• 12:32
  work
• 12:32
  to
• 12:32
  see
• 12:32
  clearly
• 12:33
  in
• 12:33
  all
• 12:33
  aspects
• 12:34
  of
• 12:34
  our
• 12:34
  lives.
• 12:35
  Okay?
• 12:35
  We
• 12:35
  can't
• 12:36
  fool
• 12:36
  ourselves
• 12:36
  in
• 12:37
  one
• 12:37
  area
• 12:38
  and
• 12:38
  then
• 12:38
  pat
• 12:39
  ourselves
• 12:39
  on
• 12:39
  the
• 12:40
  back
• 12:40
  for
• 12:40
  being
• 12:41
  good,
• 12:41
  rigorous
• 12:41
  thinkers
• 12:42
  in
• 12:42
  others.
• 12:43
  Does
• 12:43
  this
• 12:44
  mean
• 12:44
  we're
• 12:44
  going
• 12:44
  to
• 12:44
  be
• 12:44
  great
• 12:45
  thinkers
• 12:45
  in
• 12:45
  every
• 12:45
  area
• 12:46
  now?
• 12:46
  Of
• 12:46
  course
• 12:46
  not,
• 12:46
  because
• 12:47
  we
• 12:47
  all
• 12:47
  fall
• 12:48
  short.
• 12:48
  Right?
• 12:49
  But
• 12:49
  we
• 12:50
  should
• 12:50
  try.
• 12:50
  But
• 12:51
  why
• 12:51
  is
• 12:51
  it
• 12:51
  even
• 12:52
  a
• 12:52
  thing
• 12:52
  to
• 12:53
  say
• 12:53
  that
• 12:53
  it's
• 12:53
  ancient?
• 12:54
  You
• 12:54
  know,
• 12:55
  what
• 12:55
  are
• 12:55
  people?
• 12:57
  Yeah.
• 12:57
  Why
• 12:58
  do
• 12:58
  people
• 12:58
  say
• 12:58
  that
• 12:59
  in
• 12:59
  general?
• 13:00
  Yeah.
• 13:01
  Well,
• 13:02
  you
• 13:02
  know,
• 13:03
  so
• 13:03
  I
• 13:04
  don't
• 13:04
  want
• 13:04
  to
• 13:04
  assume
• 13:05
  too
• 13:06
  much,
• 13:06
  okay?
• 13:07
  It
• 13:08
  is
• 13:08
  part
• 13:08
  of
• 13:09
  the
• 13:09
  mythology
• 13:10
  and
• 13:10
  packaging
• 13:11
  of
• 13:11
  the
• 13:11
  enneagram.
• 13:12
  Look,
• 13:12
  Claudio
• 13:13
  Naranjo,
• 13:13
  who,
• 13:14
  you
• 13:14
  know,
• 13:14
  we
• 13:14
  haven't
• 13:14
  talked
• 13:15
  about
• 13:15
  yet,
• 13:15
  but
• 13:15
  he,
• 13:16
  you
• 13:16
  know,
• 13:16
  he
• 13:16
  kind
• 13:16
  of,
• 13:17
  you
• 13:17
  know,
• 13:18
  as
• 13:19
  what
• 13:19
  we
• 13:19
  know
• 13:19
  of
• 13:19
  the
• 13:19
  Enneagram
• 13:20
  personality.
• 13:20
  He's
• 13:21
  kind
• 13:21
  of
• 13:21
  the
• 13:21
  one
• 13:22
  who
• 13:22
  pulled
• 13:22
  it
• 13:23
  out
• 13:23
  of
• 13:23
  the
• 13:23
  areca
• 13:24
  system
• 13:24
  with.
• 13:25
  With
• 13:25
  achaze
• 13:26
  and
• 13:26
  popularized
• 13:27
  it
• 13:27
  in
• 13:27
  a
• 13:28
  different
• 13:28
  way,
• 13:29
  you
• 13:30
  know.
• 13:30
  Look,
• 13:31
  he
• 13:31
  was
• 13:31
  trying
• 13:31
  to
• 13:32
  sell
• 13:32
  it,
• 13:32
  okay?
• 13:33
  And
• 13:33
  there's
• 13:33
  a,
• 13:33
  you
• 13:33
  know,
• 13:34
  again,
• 13:34
  a
• 13:34
  YouTube
• 13:34
  video
• 13:35
  on
• 13:35
  this.
• 13:35
  Anybody
• 13:35
  can
• 13:36
  find
• 13:36
  it
• 13:36
  where
• 13:37
  he
• 13:37
  makes
• 13:37
  up
• 13:38
  claiming
• 13:39
  that
• 13:39
  it
• 13:39
  came
• 13:40
  from
• 13:40
  the
• 13:40
  Sufis
• 13:41
  because
• 13:42
  he
• 13:42
  wanted
• 13:42
  people
• 13:43
  to
• 13:43
  pay
• 13:43
  more
• 13:43
  attention
• 13:44
  to
• 13:44
  it.
• 13:44
  He
• 13:44
  basically
• 13:45
  said
• 13:45
  it
• 13:45
  was
• 13:46
  a
• 13:46
  marketing
• 13:46
  ploy
• 13:46
  to
• 13:47
  get
• 13:47
  people
• 13:47
  to
• 13:47
  embrace
• 13:48
  my
• 13:48
  ideas.
• 13:48
  So
• 13:48
  I
• 13:49
  said
• 13:49
  that
• 13:49
  it
• 13:49
  came
• 13:50
  from
• 13:50
  the
• 13:50
  Sufis,
• 13:51
  and
• 13:51
  now
• 13:52
  that's
• 13:52
  part
• 13:52
  of
• 13:52
  the
• 13:52
  mythology.
• 13:53
  Yeah.
• 13:54
  Right.
• 13:54
  So
• 13:54
  people
• 13:55
  believe
• 13:55
  this
• 13:57
  when
• 13:57
  it's
• 13:57
  just
• 13:58
  not
• 13:59
  true.
• 13:59
  Can
• 14:00
  you
• 14:00
  kind
• 14:01
  of
• 14:02
  help
• 14:02
  build
• 14:02
  the
• 14:03
  timeline,
• 14:03
  a
• 14:03
  little
• 14:03
  bit
• 14:04
  of
• 14:05
  echazo,
• 14:06
  Helen
• 14:06
  Palmer,
• 14:07
  Claudio
• 14:08
  Naranjo.
• 14:10
  Where
• 14:10
  do
• 14:10
  they
• 14:11
  all
• 14:11
  sit
• 14:11
  and
• 14:12
  what's
• 14:12
  the
• 14:12
  relation
• 14:12
  to
• 14:13
  each
• 14:13
  other?
• 14:13
  Yeah.
• 14:15
  So
• 14:16
  Oscar
• 14:16
  Chazzo,
• 14:17
  a
• 14:17
  bolivian
• 14:18
  mystic.
• 14:18
  Okay.
• 14:19
  And
• 14:19
  in
• 14:19
  the
• 14:20
  late
• 14:20
  fifties
• 14:20
  through
• 14:21
  1965
• 14:22
  or
• 14:22
  so,
• 14:24
  started
• 14:25
  putting
• 14:25
  together
• 14:26
  this
• 14:27
  approach,
• 14:28
  you
• 14:28
  know,
• 14:28
  a
• 14:29
  school
• 14:29
  that
• 14:30
  became
• 14:30
  the
• 14:30
  Areca
• 14:31
  school,
• 14:31
  right,
• 14:32
  as
• 14:32
  it's
• 14:32
  known,
• 14:33
  named
• 14:33
  after
• 14:34
  what?
• 14:34
  Maria
• 14:34
  Jose,
• 14:35
  a
• 14:35
  city
• 14:35
  in
• 14:36
  the
• 14:36
  north
• 14:36
  of
• 14:36
  Chile
• 14:37
  called
• 14:37
  Areca.
• 14:38
  There
• 14:38
  you
• 14:38
  go.
• 14:39
  There
• 14:40
  you
• 14:40
  go.
• 14:40
  Okay,
• 14:40
  so.
• 14:41
  And
• 14:42
  so,
• 14:43
  thank
• 14:43
  you
• 14:43
  for
• 14:44
  that
• 14:44
  bone.
• 14:48
  I'm
• 14:48
  just
• 14:48
  trying
• 14:48
  to
• 14:48
  make
• 14:48
  sure
• 14:49
  you're
• 14:49
  still
• 14:49
  with
• 14:49
  us
• 14:49
  here.
• 14:49
  Okay?
• 14:50
  So,
• 14:51
  yeah.
• 14:51
  So,
• 14:52
  in
• 14:52
  1965,
• 14:54
  he
• 14:54
  presents
• 14:55
  his
• 14:55
  model
• 14:55
  of
• 14:55
  what
• 14:55
  he
• 14:56
  called
• 14:56
  proto
• 14:57
  analysis
• 14:58
  to
• 14:58
  some
• 14:59
  institute
• 14:59
  or
• 14:59
  other
• 15:00
  in
• 15:00
  Santiago,
• 15:01
  Chile.
• 15:02
  Rio
• 15:02
  Jose's
• 15:03
  home,
• 15:03
  where
• 15:03
  Trini,
• 15:04
  my
• 15:04
  daughter,
• 15:05
  is
• 15:05
  studying
• 15:05
  at
• 15:06
  the
• 15:06
  moment
• 15:06
  in
• 15:07
  that
• 15:07
  building.
• 15:07
  Oh,
• 15:07
  is
• 15:08
  that
• 15:08
  very
• 15:08
  same
• 15:08
  building.
• 15:09
  Oh,
• 15:09
  wow.
• 15:10
  That's
• 15:11
  cool.
• 15:11
  Is
• 15:11
  there
• 15:11
  a
• 15:11
  plaque
• 15:12
  or
• 15:12
  anything?
• 15:12
  I
• 15:12
  don't
• 15:13
  think
• 15:13
  so.
• 15:14
  Memorial
• 15:15
  or
• 15:15
  statue
• 15:16
  taught
• 15:16
  there?
• 15:17
  Um,
• 15:18
  not
• 15:18
  just
• 15:18
  him.
• 15:20
  It's
• 15:20
  quite
• 15:20
  an
• 15:20
  important
• 15:21
  building.
• 15:22
  But
• 15:22
  she's.
• 15:23
  Yeah,
• 15:23
  as
• 15:23
  we
• 15:24
  speak
• 15:25
  there
• 15:25
  in
• 15:25
  class.
• 15:26
  That's
• 15:26
  cool.
• 15:28
  That's
• 15:28
  cool.
• 15:29
  So,
• 15:29
  um.
• 15:30
  So
• 15:30
  Echazo
• 15:31
  presents
• 15:31
  this
• 15:32
  idea,
• 15:32
  and
• 15:32
  then,
• 15:32
  you
• 15:33
  know,
• 15:33
  a
• 15:33
  bit
• 15:33
  later
• 15:34
  in
• 15:34
  the,
• 15:34
  uh.
• 15:35
  And.
• 15:35
  And
• 15:35
  look,
• 15:36
  Echazo's
• 15:37
  model,
• 15:37
  the.
• 15:37
  The
• 15:38
  Enneagram,
• 15:38
  is
• 15:38
  only
• 15:39
  a
• 15:39
  little
• 15:39
  piece
• 15:39
  of
• 15:39
  it,
• 15:40
  right?
• 15:40
  I
• 15:40
  mean,
• 15:40
  he
• 15:40
  had
• 15:41
  this
• 15:41
  big,
• 15:42
  full
• 15:42
  blown
• 15:43
  system
• 15:43
  of
• 15:44
  self
• 15:44
  development
• 15:44
  and
• 15:45
  all
• 15:45
  this
• 15:45
  stuff.
• 15:45
  I'm
• 15:46
  not
• 15:46
  a
• 15:46
  huge
• 15:46
  fan
• 15:46
  of
• 15:46
  most
• 15:47
  of
• 15:47
  it,
• 15:47
  you
• 15:47
  know,
• 15:47
  but
• 15:47
  I
• 15:48
  do
• 15:48
  think
• 15:48
  his
• 15:48
  work
• 15:49
  with
• 15:49
  the
• 15:49
  enneagram
• 15:49
  was
• 15:50
  significant.
• 15:50
  I
• 15:51
  don't
• 15:51
  remember
• 15:51
  exactly
• 15:52
  what
• 15:52
  year,
• 15:52
  but
• 15:53
  some
• 15:53
  point
• 15:53
  in
• 15:53
  the
• 15:53
  1970s,
• 15:54
  a
• 15:55
  bunch
• 15:55
  of
• 15:55
  people
• 15:55
  from
• 15:56
  Esselin,
• 15:56
  you
• 15:56
  know,
• 15:56
  was
• 15:57
  the
• 15:57
  seventies.
• 15:57
  People
• 15:58
  were
• 15:58
  into
• 15:58
  all
• 15:58
  this
• 15:58
  stuff.
• 15:59
  And
• 15:59
  so
• 16:00
  they
• 16:00
  go
• 16:01
  down
• 16:01
  to
• 16:01
  study
• 16:01
  with
• 16:01
  Areco,
• 16:02
  led
• 16:02
  by
• 16:02
  Claudio
• 16:03
  Naranjo.
• 16:04
  And,
• 16:05
  you
• 16:05
  know,
• 16:05
  Naranjo
• 16:06
  stays
• 16:06
  with
• 16:06
  a
• 16:06
  Chazzo
• 16:07
  for
• 16:07
  seven
• 16:07
  months
• 16:08
  or
• 16:08
  so.
• 16:08
  The.
• 16:10
  The
• 16:10
  story
• 16:11
  is
• 16:11
  that
• 16:11
  they
• 16:11
  had
• 16:11
  a
• 16:11
  big
• 16:12
  falling
• 16:12
  out.
• 16:12
  Now,
• 16:12
  in
• 16:13
  the
• 16:13
  letters
• 16:13
  to
• 16:13
  the
• 16:13
  transpersonal
• 16:15
  community,
• 16:16
  Ichazo
• 16:17
  said,
• 16:17
  no,
• 16:17
  we
• 16:17
  didn't
• 16:17
  have
• 16:17
  a
• 16:17
  falling
• 16:18
  out.
• 16:18
  It
• 16:18
  was
• 16:18
  more
• 16:18
  complicated
• 16:19
  than
• 16:19
  that.
• 16:19
  But
• 16:20
  it
• 16:20
  just
• 16:20
  ended
• 16:20
  up
• 16:20
  with
• 16:22
  Naranjo
• 16:23
  kind
• 16:23
  of
• 16:23
  going
• 16:23
  his
• 16:23
  own
• 16:24
  way
• 16:24
  eventually
• 16:25
  after
• 16:26
  this
• 16:26
  time.
• 16:26
  So
• 16:27
  he
• 16:27
  goes
• 16:27
  to
• 16:28
  and
• 16:29
  he
• 16:29
  starts
• 16:29
  his
• 16:30
  school,
• 16:30
  the
• 16:30
  Sat
• 16:31
  school,
• 16:31
  and
• 16:32
  seekers
• 16:33
  after
• 16:33
  truth.
• 16:34
  And
• 16:35
  he
• 16:36
  teaches
• 16:36
  the
• 16:36
  Enneagram
• 16:37
  in
• 16:38
  Berkeley,
• 16:39
  California.
• 16:40
  He
• 16:40
  does
• 16:41
  primarily
• 16:41
  a
• 16:42
  ten
• 16:42
  week
• 16:43
  program.
• 16:44
  It's
• 16:44
  one
• 16:45
  evening
• 16:45
  a
• 16:45
  week,
• 16:45
  is
• 16:46
  my
• 16:46
  understanding.
• 16:47
  There
• 16:47
  were
• 16:48
  a
• 16:48
  number
• 16:48
  of
• 16:48
  people
• 16:48
  in
• 16:49
  that
• 16:49
  program
• 16:50
  who
• 16:50
  were
• 16:50
  forerunners
• 16:51
  of
• 16:51
  the
• 16:51
  Enneagram
• 16:52
  personality
• 16:52
  of
• 16:53
  what
• 16:53
  we
• 16:53
  know
• 16:53
  today.
• 16:54
  Ah,
• 16:54
  Almas.
• 16:55
  You
• 16:55
  know,
• 16:55
  who
• 16:56
  writes
• 16:57
  his.
• 16:57
  Ah,
• 16:57
  Almas?
• 16:57
  His
• 16:58
  real
• 16:58
  name
• 16:58
  is
• 16:58
  Hamid
• 16:59
  Ali.
• 17:00
  Sandra
• 17:00
  Maitrey,
• 17:01
  who,
• 17:01
  you
• 17:01
  know,
• 17:01
  the
• 17:02
  two
• 17:02
  of
• 17:02
  them
• 17:02
  are,
• 17:03
  you
• 17:03
  know,
• 17:03
  part
• 17:03
  of
• 17:03
  the
• 17:03
  diamond
• 17:04
  heart
• 17:04
  school.
• 17:04
  Hamid
• 17:05
  is
• 17:05
  the
• 17:05
  founder
• 17:06
  of
• 17:06
  the
• 17:06
  Ridwan
• 17:07
  school
• 17:07
  or
• 17:07
  the
• 17:07
  diamond
• 17:08
  Heart
• 17:08
  approach.
• 17:09
  Peter
• 17:09
  O'Hanrahandh
• 17:10
  was
• 17:10
  there.
• 17:11
  Okay.
• 17:11
  He's
• 17:11
  part
• 17:12
  of
• 17:12
  the
• 17:12
  narrative
• 17:12
  tradition.
• 17:13
  Now,
• 17:13
  a
• 17:14
  woman
• 17:14
  named
• 17:14
  Kathleen
• 17:15
  Spieth,
• 17:16
  who
• 17:17
  wrote
• 17:17
  a
• 17:17
  little
• 17:17
  book
• 17:17
  called
• 17:17
  the,
• 17:18
  I
• 17:19
  think,
• 17:19
  the
• 17:19
  Gurdjieff
• 17:20
  way
• 17:20
  or
• 17:21
  something
• 17:21
  like
• 17:21
  that.
• 17:21
  A
• 17:22
  little
• 17:22
  introduction
• 17:22
  to
• 17:23
  Gurdjieff.
• 17:24
  Another
• 17:25
  person
• 17:25
  there
• 17:25
  was
• 17:26
  a
• 17:26
  jesuit
• 17:27
  priest
• 17:27
  and
• 17:28
  professor
• 17:28
  named
• 17:29
  Bob
• 17:29
  Oaks,
• 17:30
  who
• 17:30
  was
• 17:30
  an
• 17:30
  important
• 17:31
  character
• 17:32
  here.
• 17:32
  Now,
• 17:33
  Helen
• 17:33
  Palmer
• 17:34
  was
• 17:34
  not
• 17:35
  there.
• 17:35
  She
• 17:36
  was,
• 17:36
  however,
• 17:36
  friends
• 17:37
  with
• 17:37
  Kathleen
• 17:38
  Spiethen,
• 17:38
  and
• 17:39
  Kathleen
• 17:39
  Spieth
• 17:40
  taught
• 17:41
  her
• 17:41
  the
• 17:41
  Enneagram.
• 17:42
  And
• 17:42
  then
• 17:43
  Helen
• 17:43
  eventually
• 17:44
  ended
• 17:44
  up
• 17:45
  writing
• 17:45
  a
• 17:45
  book.
• 17:45
  Okay?
• 17:47
  As
• 17:47
  were
• 17:47
  other
• 17:48
  people
• 17:48
  writing
• 17:48
  books
• 17:49
  at
• 17:49
  the
• 17:49
  time.
• 17:49
  Now,
• 17:49
  Bob
• 17:50
  Oaks
• 17:50
  goes
• 17:51
  back
• 17:51
  to
• 17:52
  Loyola
• 17:53
  University
• 17:54
  after
• 17:55
  week
• 17:55
  number
• 17:56
  eight
• 17:56
  of
• 17:56
  the
• 17:56
  ten
• 17:57
  week
• 17:57
  program,
• 17:58
  his
• 17:58
  notes
• 17:59
  and
• 18:00
  his
• 18:00
  teaching
• 18:01
  of
• 18:01
  what
• 18:01
  he
• 18:01
  learned
• 18:02
  from
• 18:02
  Naranjo
• 18:03
  became
• 18:04
  kind
• 18:04
  of
• 18:05
  the
• 18:05
  founding
• 18:06
  of
• 18:06
  or
• 18:06
  the,
• 18:07
  you
• 18:07
  know,
• 18:07
  the.
• 18:08
  The
• 18:09
  basis
• 18:09
  for
• 18:10
  the
• 18:10
  jesuit
• 18:11
  approaches
• 18:12
  to
• 18:13
  the
• 18:13
  Enneagram.
• 18:14
  Folks
• 18:14
  like
• 18:14
  Don
• 18:15
  Riso,
• 18:15
  Jerry
• 18:16
  Wagner,
• 18:16
  Patrick
• 18:17
  O'Leary.
• 18:18
  Okay.
• 18:18
  And
• 18:19
  others
• 18:19
  who
• 18:20
  then
• 18:21
  all
• 18:21
  started
• 18:21
  working.
• 18:21
  Richard
• 18:22
  Rohr,
• 18:22
  Enneagram.
• 18:24
  I
• 18:24
  would
• 18:24
  imagine
• 18:26
  Richard
• 18:26
  Rohr
• 18:27
  was
• 18:27
  part.
• 18:28
  Well,
• 18:28
  see,
• 18:28
  but
• 18:28
  Richard
• 18:29
  Rohrer
• 18:29
  was
• 18:29
  a
• 18:30
  Franciscan,
• 18:32
  or
• 18:32
  is
• 18:32
  a
• 18:32
  franciscan
• 18:33
  Franciscan?
• 18:34
  I'm
• 18:34
  not
• 18:34
  sure
• 18:35
  that
• 18:35
  he
• 18:35
  was
• 18:35
  at
• 18:35
  Loyola.
• 18:36
  But
• 18:36
  he
• 18:36
  was,
• 18:37
  you
• 18:37
  know,
• 18:37
  he
• 18:37
  certainly
• 18:37
  wanted.
• 18:38
  He's
• 18:38
  in
• 18:38
  that
• 18:38
  lineage
• 18:39
  of
• 18:39
  jesuit
• 18:40
  training.
• 18:41
  Okay.
• 18:42
  All
• 18:42
  right.
• 18:42
  Okay.
• 18:43
  So
• 18:44
  now
• 18:45
  what
• 18:45
  happens
• 18:45
  is
• 18:46
  you
• 18:46
  get
• 18:46
  these
• 18:46
  different
• 18:47
  branches
• 18:48
  of
• 18:48
  the
• 18:49
  enneagram,
• 18:50
  okay?
• 18:50
  So
• 18:50
  you
• 18:50
  have
• 18:50
  these
• 18:51
  different
• 18:51
  seeds,
• 18:51
  and
• 18:52
  it
• 18:52
  starts
• 18:52
  to
• 18:52
  take
• 18:52
  different
• 18:53
  direction.
• 18:53
  Now,
• 18:54
  an
• 18:54
  important
• 18:54
  thing
• 18:55
  is
• 18:55
  that
• 18:55
  there
• 18:56
  was
• 18:56
  a
• 18:56
  big
• 18:56
  lawsuit.
• 18:57
  When
• 18:57
  Helen
• 18:57
  Palmer
• 18:58
  was
• 18:59
  first
• 18:59
  going
• 18:59
  to
• 19:00
  publish
• 19:00
  her
• 19:00
  book
• 19:01
  on
• 19:02
  the
• 19:02
  Enneagram,
• 19:03
  Oscar
• 19:03
  Ochazzo
• 19:04
  sued
• 19:05
  her
• 19:05
  for
• 19:06
  copyright
• 19:06
  infringement,
• 19:07
  okay?
• 19:07
  It
• 19:07
  was
• 19:08
  a
• 19:08
  very
• 19:08
  famous
• 19:08
  intellectual
• 19:09
  property
• 19:10
  lawsuit.
• 19:11
  And
• 19:11
  fundamentally
• 19:12
  what
• 19:12
  was
• 19:12
  decided
• 19:13
  in
• 19:13
  that
• 19:14
  lawsuit
• 19:15
  was
• 19:15
  that
• 19:15
  itchazzo
• 19:16
  was
• 19:17
  the
• 19:17
  source
• 19:17
  of
• 19:18
  the
• 19:18
  enneagram,
• 19:19
  okay?
• 19:20
  And
• 19:21
  he
• 19:21
  created
• 19:22
  it.
• 19:22
  It
• 19:23
  was
• 19:23
  his
• 19:23
  idea.
• 19:24
  It
• 19:24
  was
• 19:25
  his
• 19:25
  original
• 19:25
  thought.
• 19:26
  But
• 19:27
  the
• 19:28
  model
• 19:28
  is
• 19:29
  not
• 19:29
  copyrightable,
• 19:31
  okay?
• 19:32
  So
• 19:33
  even
• 19:33
  though
• 19:34
  it
• 19:34
  was
• 19:34
  acknowledged
• 19:35
  that
• 19:35
  it
• 19:35
  came
• 19:36
  from
• 19:36
  him,
• 19:37
  the
• 19:38
  judgment
• 19:38
  was
• 19:39
  that
• 19:39
  he
• 19:39
  can't
• 19:40
  stop
• 19:40
  other
• 19:41
  people
• 19:41
  from
• 19:42
  writing
• 19:42
  about
• 19:42
  the
• 19:42
  why.
• 19:43
  Now,
• 19:44
  this
• 19:44
  is
• 19:44
  important.
• 19:45
  Why?
• 19:45
  Because
• 19:46
  he
• 19:46
  said,
• 19:47
  my
• 19:47
  understanding
• 19:47
  of
• 19:48
  this
• 19:48
  is,
• 19:48
  he
• 19:48
  said,
• 19:49
  I
• 19:49
  am
• 19:49
  just
• 19:50
  describing
• 19:51
  laws
• 19:52
  of
• 19:52
  nature
• 19:52
  here,
• 19:53
  okay?
• 19:55
  Now,
• 19:55
  if
• 19:55
  you
• 19:56
  read
• 19:56
  what
• 19:56
  he
• 19:56
  says
• 19:56
  in
• 19:57
  the
• 19:57
  letter
• 19:57
  for
• 19:57
  the
• 19:57
  transpersonal
• 19:58
  community,
• 19:59
  he
• 19:59
  says,
• 19:59
  no,
• 20:00
  lucky,
• 20:00
  you
• 20:00
  know,
• 20:00
  this,
• 20:00
  this
• 20:01
  came
• 20:01
  to
• 20:01
  me.
• 20:01
  It
• 20:01
  didn't
• 20:01
  just
• 20:02
  come
• 20:02
  to
• 20:02
  me
• 20:02
  in
• 20:02
  a
• 20:02
  flash
• 20:03
  of
• 20:03
  insight
• 20:03
  or
• 20:03
  something.
• 20:04
  And
• 20:04
  he
• 20:04
  describes
• 20:04
  what
• 20:05
  he
• 20:05
  meant
• 20:05
  when
• 20:05
  he
• 20:06
  originally
• 20:06
  said
• 20:06
  that.
• 20:07
  He
• 20:07
  said
• 20:07
  this
• 20:08
  was
• 20:08
  years
• 20:08
  of
• 20:09
  hard
• 20:09
  work
• 20:10
  in
• 20:10
  understanding
• 20:11
  human
• 20:11
  nature
• 20:12
  that
• 20:12
  I
• 20:12
  then
• 20:13
  codified,
• 20:14
  okay.
• 20:14
  Into
• 20:14
  this
• 20:15
  thing.
• 20:16
  Now,
• 20:17
  he
• 20:17
  also
• 20:18
  said
• 20:18
  that
• 20:18
  at
• 20:19
  one
• 20:19
  point,
• 20:20
  after
• 20:20
  all
• 20:21
  this
• 20:21
  hard
• 20:21
  work,
• 20:22
  it
• 20:22
  kind
• 20:23
  of
• 20:23
  crystallized
• 20:24
  to
• 20:24
  him
• 20:25
  and
• 20:25
  it
• 20:25
  became
• 20:26
  really,
• 20:26
  really
• 20:27
  clear,
• 20:28
  okay?
• 20:29
  Almost
• 20:29
  like
• 20:29
  this
• 20:29
  Eureka
• 20:30
  moment.
• 20:30
  Now,
• 20:31
  there's
• 20:31
  a
• 20:31
  tendency
• 20:32
  for
• 20:32
  people,
• 20:32
  and
• 20:33
  I
• 20:33
  have
• 20:33
  been
• 20:33
  guilty
• 20:34
  of
• 20:34
  this,
• 20:34
  to
• 20:34
  kind
• 20:34
  of
• 20:34
  poke
• 20:35
  fun
• 20:35
  at
• 20:35
  that,
• 20:35
  as
• 20:36
  if
• 20:36
  it
• 20:36
  was
• 20:36
  this,
• 20:36
  you
• 20:36
  know,
• 20:37
  inspiration
• 20:37
  or
• 20:38
  something.
• 20:38
  But
• 20:38
  as
• 20:39
  I
• 20:39
  was
• 20:39
  rereading
• 20:40
  that
• 20:40
  in
• 20:40
  preparation
• 20:41
  for
• 20:41
  this
• 20:43
  podcast.
• 20:44
  Podcast.
• 20:45
  Thank
• 20:46
  you.
• 20:46
  Is
• 20:46
  that
• 20:46
  what
• 20:46
  we're
• 20:46
  doing
• 20:47
  here?
• 20:50
  It
• 20:50
  made
• 20:50
  me
• 20:50
  think
• 20:51
  of
• 20:51
  something
• 20:51
  that
• 20:51
  happened
• 20:52
  to
• 20:52
  me
• 20:52
  one
• 20:52
  time,
• 20:53
  right,
• 20:53
  where
• 20:53
  I
• 20:53
  was
• 20:54
  sitting
• 20:54
  with
• 20:54
  a
• 20:54
  client,
• 20:55
  and
• 20:55
  I'd
• 20:55
  been
• 20:56
  working
• 20:56
  with
• 20:56
  this
• 20:56
  stuff
• 20:56
  for
• 20:57
  years
• 20:57
  and
• 20:57
  years
• 20:57
  and
• 20:58
  years,
• 20:58
  and
• 20:59
  I'm
• 20:59
  sitting
• 20:59
  with
• 20:59
  him,
• 21:00
  and
• 21:00
  all
• 21:01
  of
• 21:01
  a
• 21:01
  sudden
• 21:02
  this
• 21:02
  idea
• 21:02
  of
• 21:03
  the
• 21:03
  derailers
• 21:04
  crystallized
• 21:05
  for
• 21:05
  me.
• 21:06
  I'm
• 21:07
  sitting
• 21:07
  there
• 21:07
  with
• 21:07
  this
• 21:08
  guy.
• 21:08
  He
• 21:08
  was
• 21:08
  a
• 21:08
  type
• 21:08
  nine.
• 21:09
  And
• 21:09
  I'm
• 21:09
  thinking,
• 21:09
  you
• 21:09
  know
• 21:09
  what?
• 21:10
  I've
• 21:10
  heard
• 21:10
  this
• 21:10
  before,
• 21:11
  and
• 21:11
  there
• 21:11
  are
• 21:11
  other
• 21:12
  things
• 21:12
  I've
• 21:12
  heard.
• 21:12
  And
• 21:13
  all
• 21:13
  of
• 21:13
  a
• 21:13
  sudden
• 21:13
  it's
• 21:13
  like,
• 21:14
  ah,
• 21:14
  I
• 21:15
  get
• 21:15
  this
• 21:16
  now,
• 21:17
  right?
• 21:18
  So.
• 21:18
  And
• 21:18
  that's
• 21:18
  kind
• 21:18
  of
• 21:19
  what
• 21:19
  he
• 21:19
  was
• 21:19
  saying,
• 21:19
  right?
• 21:19
  And
• 21:20
  we
• 21:20
  all
• 21:20
  have
• 21:20
  these
• 21:20
  eureka
• 21:21
  moments
• 21:21
  where
• 21:21
  we're
• 21:21
  like,
• 21:22
  working
• 21:22
  with
• 21:22
  something
• 21:23
  and
• 21:23
  working
• 21:23
  with
• 21:23
  something,
• 21:24
  and
• 21:24
  all
• 21:24
  of
• 21:24
  a
• 21:24
  sudden
• 21:24
  we're
• 21:24
  like,
• 21:25
  ah,
• 21:26
  now
• 21:26
  I
• 21:26
  understand
• 21:27
  this
• 21:27
  in
• 21:27
  a
• 21:27
  different
• 21:27
  way.
• 21:28
  Okay,
• 21:28
  so
• 21:29
  that's
• 21:29
  what
• 21:29
  a
• 21:29
  chazzo
• 21:29
  was
• 21:30
  saying.
• 21:31
  But
• 21:32
  because
• 21:33
  we're
• 21:33
  talking
• 21:34
  about
• 21:34
  patterns,
• 21:35
  because
• 21:35
  we're
• 21:35
  talking
• 21:36
  about
• 21:36
  descriptions
• 21:36
  of
• 21:36
  human
• 21:37
  nature,
• 21:37
  we
• 21:37
  can't
• 21:37
  really
• 21:38
  copyright
• 21:38
  it.
• 21:39
  What
• 21:39
  we
• 21:39
  can
• 21:40
  do
• 21:40
  is
• 21:41
  say,
• 21:41
  these
• 21:42
  are
• 21:42
  my
• 21:42
  copywritten
• 21:44
  terms
• 21:45
  around
• 21:45
  this
• 21:45
  diagram.
• 21:46
  You
• 21:47
  may
• 21:47
  not
• 21:47
  use
• 21:48
  them
• 21:48
  without
• 21:48
  my
• 21:49
  permission,
• 21:50
  which
• 21:50
  is
• 21:50
  why
• 21:51
  every
• 21:51
  Enneagram
• 21:52
  teacher
• 21:53
  calls
• 21:53
  them
• 21:54
  different
• 21:54
  things.
• 21:55
  Okay?
• 21:56
  Because
• 21:57
  once
• 21:57
  I
• 21:57
  put
• 21:57
  my
• 21:58
  names
• 21:58
  for
• 21:59
  the
• 21:59
  nine
• 21:59
  types
• 21:59
  in
• 22:00
  writing,
• 22:00
  now,
• 22:01
  that's
• 22:01
  my
• 22:01
  intellectual
• 22:02
  property.
• 22:02
  Okay?
• 22:03
  And
• 22:03
  you
• 22:03
  got
• 22:03
  to
• 22:03
  call
• 22:03
  them
• 22:04
  something.
• 22:04
  Else
• 22:05
  or
• 22:05
  acknowledge
• 22:06
  that
• 22:06
  it's
• 22:06
  mine.
• 22:08
  Or
• 22:08
  acknowledge
• 22:09
  that
• 22:09
  it's
• 22:09
  mine.
• 22:09
  Yeah,
• 22:09
  absolutely
• 22:10
  right.
• 22:10
  And
• 22:10
  again,
• 22:11
  I'm
• 22:11
  not
• 22:11
  just
• 22:11
  saying
• 22:11
  that
• 22:11
  about
• 22:12
  me.
• 22:12
  I'm
• 22:12
  just
• 22:12
  saying
• 22:12
  that
• 22:13
  that's
• 22:13
  how
• 22:13
  intellectual
• 22:14
  property
• 22:14
  works.
• 22:15
  So
• 22:15
  if
• 22:15
  he
• 22:16
  had
• 22:16
  not
• 22:16
  claimed
• 22:17
  laws
• 22:17
  of
• 22:17
  nature,
• 22:18
  then
• 22:19
  the
• 22:19
  Enneagram
• 22:19
  would
• 22:19
  have
• 22:20
  been
• 22:20
  his.
• 22:23
  Possibly.
• 22:24
  I'm
• 22:24
  not
• 22:24
  enough.
• 22:25
  I
• 22:25
  don't
• 22:25
  know
• 22:25
  enough
• 22:26
  about
• 22:26
  the
• 22:26
  law
• 22:26
  to
• 22:27
  say
• 22:27
  yes
• 22:28
  or
• 22:28
  no
• 22:28
  on
• 22:28
  that.
• 22:29
  But
• 22:29
  it
• 22:29
  did
• 22:29
  undermine
• 22:30
  his
• 22:30
  argument.
• 22:31
  Why
• 22:32
  did
• 22:32
  he
• 22:32
  go
• 22:32
  after
• 22:32
  Helen
• 22:33
  instead
• 22:34
  of
• 22:34
  Naranjo?
• 22:35
  Because
• 22:36
  Helen
• 22:36
  was
• 22:37
  writing
• 22:38
  the
• 22:38
  first
• 22:38
  book.
• 22:39
  Naranjo
• 22:40
  had
• 22:40
  not
• 22:40
  done
• 22:40
  anything.
• 22:41
  He
• 22:41
  was
• 22:41
  teaching
• 22:42
  it.
• 22:42
  So
• 22:43
  I
• 22:43
  would
• 22:43
  have
• 22:44
  to
• 22:44
  double
• 22:44
  check
• 22:45
  to
• 22:45
  see
• 22:46
  when
• 22:46
  any
• 22:47
  type
• 22:47
  structures
• 22:48
  came
• 22:49
  out.
• 22:49
  That
• 22:49
  was
• 22:50
  Naranjo's
• 22:50
  first
• 22:51
  book
• 22:51
  on
• 22:51
  it.
• 22:52
  And
• 22:52
  in
• 22:52
  the
• 22:52
  letter
• 22:52
  to
• 22:52
  the
• 22:53
  transpersonal
• 22:53
  community,
• 22:55
  Chazzo
• 22:55
  says
• 22:56
  the
• 22:56
  good
• 22:56
  thing
• 22:56
  about
• 22:57
  Naranjo
• 22:57
  is
• 22:57
  that
• 22:57
  he
• 22:58
  basically
• 22:58
  gave
• 22:58
  me
• 22:58
  credit,
• 22:59
  and
• 22:59
  he
• 22:59
  said,
• 23:00
  I
• 23:00
  got
• 23:00
  this
• 23:00
  from
• 23:01
  Oscar
• 23:01
  and
• 23:01
  that
• 23:01
  sort
• 23:01
  of
• 23:02
  thing.
• 23:03
  Helen,
• 23:04
  to
• 23:04
  my
• 23:04
  understanding,
• 23:05
  was
• 23:05
  saying,
• 23:06
  well,
• 23:07
  Oskar
• 23:07
  just
• 23:07
  got
• 23:08
  it
• 23:08
  from
• 23:08
  Gurdjieff.
• 23:09
  So
• 23:10
  he's
• 23:11
  just
• 23:11
  a
• 23:11
  pass
• 23:11
  through
• 23:12
  sort
• 23:13
  of
• 23:13
  holder
• 23:13
  at
• 23:13
  this.
• 23:14
  And
• 23:15
  what
• 23:16
  Ochazo
• 23:16
  does
• 23:17
  in
• 23:17
  that
• 23:17
  letter
• 23:17
  to
• 23:18
  the
• 23:18
  transpersonal
• 23:18
  community
• 23:19
  is
• 23:19
  say,
• 23:20
  I
• 23:20
  didn't
• 23:20
  get
• 23:20
  this
• 23:21
  from
• 23:21
  Gurdjieff.
• 23:22
  In
• 23:22
  fact,
• 23:23
  I
• 23:23
  don't
• 23:23
  have
• 23:23
  any
• 23:24
  respect
• 23:24
  or
• 23:24
  regard
• 23:25
  from
• 23:25
  Gurdjieff.
• 23:26
  And
• 23:26
  here's
• 23:26
  all
• 23:26
  the
• 23:26
  problems
• 23:27
  and
• 23:27
  why.
• 23:27
  I
• 23:27
  think
• 23:28
  Gurdjieff
• 23:28
  is
• 23:28
  intellectually
• 23:29
  primitive
• 23:29
  and
• 23:30
  not
• 23:30
  very
• 23:30
  interesting.
• 23:31
  And
• 23:32
  here's
• 23:32
  what's
• 23:33
  different
• 23:33
  from
• 23:33
  what
• 23:33
  I
• 23:33
  did
• 23:34
  from
• 23:34
  what
• 23:34
  Gurdjieff
• 23:34
  did.
• 23:35
  But
• 23:35
  it
• 23:35
  is
• 23:36
  possible
• 23:37
  that
• 23:38
  he
• 23:38
  could
• 23:39
  have
• 23:39
  gotten
• 23:39
  it
• 23:39
  from
• 23:39
  Gurjeev
• 23:40
  but
• 23:40
  didn't
• 23:40
  want
• 23:40
  to
• 23:40
  admit
• 23:41
  that
• 23:41
  he
• 23:41
  got
• 23:41
  it
• 23:41
  from
• 23:41
  Gurdjieff
• 23:42
  because
• 23:42
  he
• 23:42
  didn't
• 23:42
  like.
• 23:43
  Well,
• 23:44
  no,
• 23:44
  the
• 23:44
  only
• 23:44
  thing
• 23:44
  we
• 23:44
  can
• 23:45
  suggest
• 23:45
  that
• 23:45
  he
• 23:45
  got
• 23:46
  from
• 23:46
  Gurdjieff
• 23:46
  was
• 23:47
  the
• 23:47
  diagram
• 23:47
  itself.
• 23:48
  Okay.
• 23:49
  And
• 23:49
  that's.
• 23:50
  Again,
• 23:50
  that's
• 23:50
  a
• 23:50
  different
• 23:50
  thing.
• 23:51
  But
• 23:51
  Gurdjieff
• 23:51
  didn't
• 23:51
  talk
• 23:52
  about
• 23:52
  nine
• 23:52
  personality
• 23:53
  types.
• 23:54
  Right,
• 23:54
  right.
• 23:54
  But
• 23:55
  just.
• 23:56
  Just
• 23:56
  kind
• 23:56
  of.
• 23:57
  There
• 23:57
  might
• 23:57
  have
• 23:57
  been
• 23:59
  at
• 23:59
  least
• 23:59
  the
• 24:00
  symbol
• 24:00
  and
• 24:01
  the
• 24:01
  idea
• 24:01
  of
• 24:02
  a
• 24:02
  process
• 24:02
  there.
• 24:04
  I
• 24:04
  would
• 24:04
  argue
• 24:05
  that
• 24:05
  he
• 24:05
  did,
• 24:06
  because
• 24:07
  even
• 24:08
  though
• 24:08
  ichazzo
• 24:09
  claims
• 24:10
  that
• 24:10
  he
• 24:10
  saw
• 24:10
  the
• 24:11
  diagram
• 24:11
  somewhere
• 24:12
  else
• 24:12
  in
• 24:13
  some
• 24:14
  ancient
• 24:14
  chaldean
• 24:16
  mystics
• 24:17
  and
• 24:17
  numerology
• 24:18
  book
• 24:18
  or
• 24:19
  something,
• 24:19
  I've
• 24:20
  not
• 24:20
  seen
• 24:20
  any
• 24:21
  evidence
• 24:21
  of
• 24:22
  the
• 24:22
  Enneagram
• 24:23
  diagram
• 24:23
  existing
• 24:25
  prior
• 24:26
  to
• 24:26
  Gurdjieff.
• 24:27
  Okay,
• 24:27
  there
• 24:28
  is
• 24:28
  just
• 24:29
  no
• 24:30
  evidence
• 24:31
  whatsoever
• 24:32
  that
• 24:32
  anyone
• 24:33
  has
• 24:33
  ever
• 24:33
  shown
• 24:34
  that
• 24:35
  the
• 24:35
  diagram
• 24:35
  existed
• 24:36
  prior
• 24:36
  to
• 24:36
  Gurdjieff.
• 24:37
  Okay?
• 24:38
  Now,
• 24:38
  the
• 24:38
  argument
• 24:39
  is,
• 24:39
  well,
• 24:39
  he
• 24:39
  got
• 24:39
  it
• 24:39
  from
• 24:40
  some
• 24:40
  secret
• 24:40
  school,
• 24:41
  and
• 24:41
  it
• 24:41
  was
• 24:41
  kept
• 24:41
  hidden
• 24:41
  and
• 24:42
  all
• 24:42
  this
• 24:42
  stuff,
• 24:43
  you
• 24:43
  know
• 24:43
  what?
• 24:43
  That's.
• 24:43
  That.
• 24:44
  That's
• 24:44
  the
• 24:44
  beginning
• 24:45
  of
• 24:45
  every
• 24:45
  conspiracy
• 24:46
  theory,
• 24:47
  right?
• 24:47
  Well,
• 24:47
  there's
• 24:47
  no
• 24:48
  evidence
• 24:48
  of
• 24:48
  it
• 24:48
  because
• 24:48
  they
• 24:49
  were
• 24:49
  keeping
• 24:49
  it
• 24:49
  secret.
• 24:50
  Mm
• 24:50
  hmm.
• 24:51
  Well,
• 24:51
  okay,
• 24:52
  so
• 24:53
  then
• 24:53
  show
• 24:53
  me
• 24:53
  the
• 24:54
  secret
• 24:54
  society,
• 24:55
  right?
• 24:56
  And
• 24:56
  look,
• 24:56
  I've
• 24:57
  been
• 24:57
  studying
• 24:57
  the
• 24:57
  enneagram
• 24:58
  for
• 24:58
  30
• 24:58
  years
• 24:59
  now,
• 24:59
  okay?
• 25:00
  And
• 25:01
  I
• 25:01
  have
• 25:01
  been
• 25:01
  fortunate
• 25:02
  enough
• 25:02
  to
• 25:02
  go
• 25:02
  to
• 25:03
  lots
• 25:03
  of
• 25:03
  different
• 25:04
  countries
• 25:04
  and
• 25:05
  lots
• 25:05
  of
• 25:05
  different
• 25:05
  cities.
• 25:06
  And
• 25:06
  I
• 25:06
  always
• 25:06
  go
• 25:07
  to
• 25:07
  every
• 25:07
  bookstore
• 25:08
  I
• 25:08
  can
• 25:08
  find,
• 25:08
  and
• 25:08
  Marie
• 25:09
  Jose
• 25:09
  can
• 25:09
  attest
• 25:09
  to
• 25:10
  that.
• 25:10
  And
• 25:10
  the
• 25:10
  more
• 25:10
  obscure,
• 25:11
  the
• 25:11
  better.
• 25:13
  High
• 25:14
  and
• 25:14
  low,
• 25:14
  all
• 25:15
  languages,
• 25:15
  right?
• 25:16
  I
• 25:16
  mean,
• 25:16
  I've.
• 25:16
  I've
• 25:16
  spent
• 25:17
  hours
• 25:17
  perusing
• 25:18
  a
• 25:18
  korean
• 25:18
  bookstore,
• 25:19
  you
• 25:19
  know,
• 25:19
  I
• 25:19
  mean,
• 25:20
  just
• 25:20
  because
• 25:20
  for
• 25:20
  the
• 25:21
  heck
• 25:21
  of
• 25:21
  it.
• 25:22
  And
• 25:22
  I
• 25:22
  look
• 25:22
  for
• 25:23
  books
• 25:23
  on,
• 25:23
  you
• 25:24
  know,
• 25:24
  ancient,
• 25:25
  you
• 25:25
  know,
• 25:26
  symbology
• 25:27
  and
• 25:27
  all
• 25:27
  this
• 25:27
  sort
• 25:27
  of
• 25:27
  stuff.
• 25:28
  And
• 25:28
  the
• 25:28
  enneagram
• 25:28
  as
• 25:29
  we
• 25:29
  know
• 25:29
  it
• 25:29
  just
• 25:29
  isn't
• 25:30
  there.
• 25:30
  If
• 25:30
  somebody
• 25:30
  got
• 25:31
  evidence
• 25:31
  of
• 25:31
  it,
• 25:32
  send
• 25:32
  it
• 25:32
  to
• 25:32
  us.
• 25:32
  I'd
• 25:32
  love
• 25:32
  to
• 25:33
  see
• 25:33
  it.
• 25:33
  The
• 25:33
  symbol
• 25:33
  of.
• 25:34
  The
• 25:34
  symbol.
• 25:34
  Yes,
• 25:35
  the
• 25:35
  symbol.
• 25:36
  Helen
• 25:36
  Palmer.
• 25:37
  Naranjo
• 25:39
  Echazzo
• 25:39
  sues
• 25:40
  Helen
• 25:40
  Palmer,
• 25:41
  and
• 25:42
  then
• 25:43
  he
• 25:43
  doesn't
• 25:43
  get
• 25:44
  the
• 25:44
  rights.
• 25:44
  So
• 25:44
  as
• 25:45
  long
• 25:45
  as
• 25:45
  all
• 25:45
  the
• 25:45
  schools
• 25:46
  use
• 25:46
  different
• 25:46
  terminology,
• 25:47
  then
• 25:48
  we
• 25:48
  can
• 25:49
  use
• 25:49
  the
• 25:49
  Enneagram
• 25:49
  model.
• 25:51
  And
• 25:51
  this
• 25:52
  opens
• 25:52
  the
• 25:52
  floodgates
• 25:53
  on
• 25:54
  different
• 25:55
  approaches
• 25:56
  to
• 25:56
  the
• 25:56
  enneagram.
• 25:57
  Right.
• 25:57
  And
• 25:57
  we
• 25:58
  live
• 25:58
  in,
• 25:58
  as
• 25:59
  the
• 25:59
  result
• 25:59
  of
• 25:59
  that,
• 26:00
  where
• 26:00
  anybody
• 26:01
  and
• 26:01
  anybody
• 26:01
  who
• 26:01
  wants
• 26:02
  to
• 26:02
  can
• 26:02
  start
• 26:02
  writing
• 26:03
  about
• 26:03
  the
• 26:03
  enneagram
• 26:04
  and
• 26:04
  posting
• 26:04
  and
• 26:04
  making
• 26:05
  TikTok
• 26:05
  videos
• 26:06
  and
• 26:06
  all
• 26:06
  this
• 26:06
  sort
• 26:06
  of
• 26:06
  stuff.
• 26:08
  And,
• 26:08
  you
• 26:08
  know,
• 26:09
  whether
• 26:09
  they
• 26:09
  know
• 26:09
  it
• 26:09
  or
• 26:09
  not.
• 26:10
  And
• 26:10
  this
• 26:10
  was
• 26:10
  Achazo's
• 26:11
  big
• 26:11
  fear,
• 26:11
  quite
• 26:11
  frankly,
• 26:12
  you
• 26:12
  know,
• 26:12
  that
• 26:13
  people
• 26:13
  are
• 26:13
  going
• 26:13
  to
• 26:13
  make
• 26:13
  a
• 26:13
  mockery
• 26:14
  out
• 26:14
  of
• 26:14
  this
• 26:14
  thing
• 26:15
  that
• 26:15
  he
• 26:15
  held
• 26:15
  to
• 26:15
  be
• 26:15
  very
• 26:16
  sacred.
• 26:16
  I
• 26:16
  mean,
• 26:17
  you
• 26:17
  know,
• 26:17
  Chazzo,
• 26:18
  you
• 26:18
  know,
• 26:19
  he
• 26:19
  basically
• 26:19
  was
• 26:20
  creating
• 26:20
  a.
• 26:21
  It
• 26:22
  was
• 26:22
  a
• 26:22
  religion,
• 26:22
  you
• 26:23
  know,
• 26:23
  and,
• 26:24
  you
• 26:24
  know,
• 26:24
  people
• 26:24
  aren't
• 26:24
  comfortable
• 26:25
  with
• 26:25
  that,
• 26:25
  but
• 26:26
  fits
• 26:26
  every
• 26:26
  definition
• 26:27
  of
• 26:27
  it.
• 26:27
  And
• 26:28
  he
• 26:28
  felt
• 26:28
  that,
• 26:29
  you
• 26:29
  know,
• 26:29
  the
• 26:29
  proto
• 26:30
  analysis
• 26:30
  in
• 26:30
  the
• 26:31
  Areca
• 26:31
  school
• 26:31
  was,
• 26:32
  you
• 26:32
  know,
• 26:32
  going
• 26:32
  to
• 26:32
  save
• 26:33
  humanity
• 26:33
  from
• 26:34
  self
• 26:34
  destruction
• 26:34
  and
• 26:35
  that
• 26:35
  the
• 26:36
  enneagram
• 26:36
  was
• 26:36
  a
• 26:36
  piece
• 26:36
  of
• 26:37
  that.
• 26:37
  And
• 26:37
  his
• 26:38
  big
• 26:38
  frustration
• 26:39
  is
• 26:39
  that
• 26:39
  what
• 26:39
  everybody
• 26:40
  was
• 26:40
  doing
• 26:40
  with
• 26:41
  his
• 26:41
  beloved
• 26:41
  enneagram
• 26:42
  was
• 26:42
  just
• 26:42
  a
• 26:43
  superficial
• 26:44
  piece
• 26:45
  of.
• 26:45
  Of,
• 26:46
  you
• 26:46
  know,
• 26:46
  a
• 26:47
  much
• 26:47
  bigger
• 26:48
  system.
• 26:48
  And
• 26:49
  just
• 26:50
  a
• 26:50
  real
• 26:50
  quick
• 26:50
  bunny
• 26:50
  trail.
• 26:51
  People
• 26:52
  having
• 26:52
  this
• 26:52
  argument
• 26:52
  of,
• 26:53
  is
• 26:53
  it
• 26:53
  a
• 26:53
  psychological
• 26:54
  tool?
• 26:54
  Is
• 26:54
  it
• 26:54
  a
• 26:54
  spiritual
• 26:54
  tool?
• 26:55
  Is
• 26:55
  it
• 26:55
  a
• 26:56
  psycho
• 26:56
  spiritual
• 26:57
  tool?
• 26:57
  To
• 26:58
  be
• 26:58
  fair,
• 26:58
  it
• 26:58
  started
• 26:59
  off
• 26:59
  as
• 26:59
  spiritual.
• 27:00
  We
• 27:01
  made
• 27:01
  it
• 27:01
  into
• 27:01
  something
• 27:02
  psychological.
• 27:03
  And
• 27:04
  in
• 27:04
  some
• 27:04
  ways
• 27:05
  it's
• 27:05
  like,
• 27:05
  as
• 27:06
  long
• 27:06
  as
• 27:06
  you're
• 27:06
  clear
• 27:07
  as
• 27:07
  to
• 27:07
  how
• 27:07
  you're
• 27:07
  using
• 27:08
  it
• 27:08
  or
• 27:08
  what
• 27:09
  you
• 27:09
  think
• 27:09
  is
• 27:10
  like,
• 27:10
  that's
• 27:10
  fine.
• 27:11
  But
• 27:11
  equating
• 27:12
  both,
• 27:14
  I
• 27:15
  don't
• 27:15
  know
• 27:15
  your
• 27:15
  thoughts
• 27:15
  on
• 27:16
  that.
• 27:16
  Maybe
• 27:16
  I
• 27:16
  don't
• 27:17
  have
• 27:17
  an
• 27:17
  opinion
• 27:17
  on
• 27:17
  that,
• 27:18
  but
• 27:18
  I
• 27:18
  feel
• 27:18
  like
• 27:18
  that
• 27:18
  distinction
• 27:20
  is
• 27:20
  helpful.
• 27:21
  The
• 27:22
  enneagram
• 27:23
  of
• 27:23
  personality
• 27:24
  was
• 27:25
  developed
• 27:26
  in
• 27:26
  the
• 27:27
  context
• 27:27
  of
• 27:28
  a
• 27:28
  psychospiritual
• 27:29
  system
• 27:31
  by
• 27:31
  Oscar
• 27:31
  Itchazzo.
• 27:32
  In
• 27:32
  his
• 27:33
  proto
• 27:33
  analysis
• 27:34
  method,
• 27:36
  Claudio
• 27:37
  Naranjo
• 27:39
  adapted
• 27:40
  more
• 27:40
  psychological
• 27:43
  concepts
• 27:44
  and
• 27:44
  ideas
• 27:45
  to
• 27:45
  the
• 27:45
  system.
• 27:46
  For
• 27:47
  example,
• 27:47
  he
• 27:48
  associated
• 27:48
  each
• 27:49
  of
• 27:49
  the
• 27:49
  personality
• 27:50
  types
• 27:50
  with
• 27:51
  some
• 27:51
  of
• 27:51
  the
• 27:52
  diagnoses
• 27:53
  in
• 27:53
  the
• 27:53
  DSM
• 27:54
  three.
• 27:54
  At
• 27:54
  the
• 27:54
  time,
• 27:54
  I
• 27:55
  believe
• 27:55
  it
• 27:55
  was
• 27:56
  the
• 27:56
  eight
• 27:56
  is
• 27:57
  the
• 27:57
  antisocial
• 27:58
  personality
• 27:58
  type.
• 27:59
  The
• 28:00
  one
• 28:00
  is,
• 28:01
  what
• 28:01
  was
• 28:01
  it?
• 28:01
  The
• 28:01
  obsessive
• 28:02
  compulsive
• 28:03
  type,
• 28:03
  riose
• 28:03
  or
• 28:04
  something.
• 28:06
  So
• 28:07
  we
• 28:07
  can
• 28:08
  look
• 28:08
  at
• 28:09
  them
• 28:09
  from
• 28:09
  a
• 28:10
  psychological
• 28:10
  perspective.
• 28:11
  And
• 28:12
  from
• 28:12
  there,
• 28:12
  people
• 28:13
  have
• 28:13
  taken
• 28:13
  it
• 28:14
  in
• 28:14
  lots
• 28:14
  of
• 28:15
  different
• 28:15
  directions.
• 28:16
  Now,
• 28:18
  again,
• 28:18
  if
• 28:19
  we.
• 28:20
  It's
• 28:20
  hard
• 28:21
  to
• 28:21
  fully
• 28:22
  yank
• 28:23
  the
• 28:23
  enneagram
• 28:23
  of
• 28:23
  personality
• 28:24
  out
• 28:25
  of
• 28:26
  Ichazo's
• 28:27
  system
• 28:27
  because
• 28:28
  he
• 28:28
  had
• 28:28
  this
• 28:29
  whole
• 28:29
  kind
• 28:29
  of
• 28:30
  neoplatonic
• 28:31
  spiritual
• 28:32
  system
• 28:33
  going
• 28:33
  on
• 28:35
  that
• 28:35
  other
• 28:35
  people
• 28:36
  have
• 28:36
  tried
• 28:36
  to
• 28:36
  hold
• 28:37
  on
• 28:37
  to.
• 28:37
  Pieces
• 28:38
  of,
• 28:39
  like
• 28:39
  the
• 28:39
  Ridwan
• 28:40
  school
• 28:40
  has
• 28:40
  held
• 28:41
  on
• 28:41
  to
• 28:41
  a
• 28:41
  lot
• 28:41
  of
• 28:42
  those
• 28:42
  pieces
• 28:42
  and
• 28:42
  added
• 28:43
  some
• 28:43
  other
• 28:43
  things
• 28:44
  that
• 28:44
  were
• 28:44
  not,
• 28:45
  in
• 28:45
  Achazos
• 28:45
  approach,
• 28:47
  the
• 28:47
  ego
• 28:47
  essence.
• 28:49
  So,
• 28:49
  yeah,
• 28:49
  so
• 28:50
  that's
• 28:50
  a
• 28:50
  big
• 28:51
  part
• 28:51
  of
• 28:51
  it.
• 28:51
  Right?
• 28:52
  And
• 28:53
  so
• 28:53
  now,
• 28:53
  again,
• 28:54
  that
• 28:54
  comes
• 28:54
  from
• 28:55
  the
• 28:55
  neoplatonic
• 28:56
  stuff
• 28:56
  that
• 28:56
  was,
• 28:57
  you
• 28:57
  know,
• 28:57
  that
• 28:58
  Achazo
• 28:58
  pulled
• 28:59
  into
• 28:59
  his
• 28:59
  broader
• 29:00
  system.
• 29:01
  And
• 29:02
  he
• 29:02
  also
• 29:02
  points
• 29:03
  out,
• 29:03
  for
• 29:03
  example,
• 29:04
  that
• 29:05
  Gurdjieff's
• 29:07
  approach
• 29:07
  to
• 29:07
  ego
• 29:08
  and
• 29:08
  essence
• 29:08
  were
• 29:08
  different
• 29:09
  from
• 29:09
  what
• 29:09
  he
• 29:09
  was
• 29:10
  doing
• 29:11
  with
• 29:11
  Gurdjieff.
• 29:11
  It
• 29:12
  wasn't
• 29:12
  quite
• 29:13
  as
• 29:13
  harshly
• 29:13
  neoplatonic
• 29:15
  as
• 29:15
  it
• 29:16
  was
• 29:16
  with
• 29:16
  a
• 29:16
  chazzo.
• 29:17
  And
• 29:18
  again,
• 29:18
  so
• 29:19
  there
• 29:19
  are
• 29:19
  distinctions.
• 29:19
  And
• 29:20
  see,
• 29:20
  this
• 29:20
  is
• 29:20
  the
• 29:20
  thing
• 29:21
  is
• 29:21
  that
• 29:21
  every
• 29:22
  Enneagram
• 29:23
  teacher
• 29:23
  throughout
• 29:24
  this
• 29:24
  chain,
• 29:25
  from,
• 29:25
  you
• 29:25
  know,
• 29:26
  if
• 29:26
  we
• 29:26
  call
• 29:26
  Gurdjieff
• 29:27
  an
• 29:27
  Enneagram
• 29:27
  teacher,
• 29:28
  to
• 29:28
  Ochazzo,
• 29:29
  to
• 29:29
  Naranjo,
• 29:30
  to
• 29:31
  all
• 29:31
  those
• 29:31
  other
• 29:32
  folks,
• 29:33
  created
• 29:33
  their
• 29:33
  own
• 29:34
  approach
• 29:34
  to
• 29:34
  it,
• 29:35
  right?
• 29:35
  They
• 29:35
  evolved
• 29:36
  the
• 29:36
  system.
• 29:37
  Okay?
• 29:38
  And
• 29:38
  this
• 29:39
  idea
• 29:40
  that
• 29:40
  it
• 29:40
  is
• 29:41
  this
• 29:42
  intact
• 29:43
  perennial
• 29:44
  philosophy,
• 29:45
  which
• 29:45
  is
• 29:46
  probably
• 29:46
  a
• 29:46
  term
• 29:46
  we
• 29:47
  should
• 29:47
  discuss
• 29:47
  here
• 29:47
  in
• 29:47
  a
• 29:48
  moment,
• 29:48
  but
• 29:49
  it's
• 29:49
  that
• 29:50
  this
• 29:50
  intact
• 29:52
  point
• 29:52
  of
• 29:52
  view
• 29:52
  and
• 29:53
  that
• 29:53
  there
• 29:53
  is
• 29:53
  one
• 29:54
  true
• 29:54
  enneagram
• 29:56
  is
• 29:56
  not
• 29:56
  consistent
• 29:57
  with
• 29:57
  the
• 29:58
  development
• 29:58
  of
• 29:59
  the
• 29:59
  enneagram
• 29:59
  over
• 30:00
  time.
• 30:00
  The
• 30:00
  enneagram
• 30:01
  of
• 30:01
  personality
• 30:01
  here,
• 30:02
  or
• 30:03
  with
• 30:03
  intellectual
• 30:04
  thought
• 30:05
  in
• 30:05
  general.
• 30:06
  That's
• 30:06
  what
• 30:07
  religions
• 30:07
  do.
• 30:08
  Yeah.
• 30:08
  If
• 30:08
  we
• 30:09
  were
• 30:09
  to
• 30:09
  think
• 30:10
  that
• 30:10
  the
• 30:10
  enneagram
• 30:11
  is
• 30:11
  ancient
• 30:12
  now,
• 30:13
  what
• 30:13
  has
• 30:13
  changed
• 30:14
  might
• 30:14
  be,
• 30:15
  I
• 30:15
  don't
• 30:15
  know,
• 30:16
  nothing
• 30:16
  compared
• 30:17
  to
• 30:17
  kind
• 30:17
  of
• 30:17
  where
• 30:18
  it
• 30:18
  comes
• 30:18
  from
• 30:18
  or.
• 30:19
  I
• 30:20
  don't
• 30:20
  know.
• 30:20
  We
• 30:20
  would
• 30:20
  believe
• 30:20
  that
• 30:21
  it's
• 30:21
  the
• 30:21
  same
• 30:22
  thing
• 30:22
  now,
• 30:23
  if
• 30:23
  we
• 30:23
  think
• 30:23
  that
• 30:23
  it
• 30:24
  started
• 30:24
  with
• 30:25
  Ichazo
• 30:26
  early,
• 30:27
  like
• 30:28
  in
• 30:28
  1970,
• 30:30
  it's
• 30:30
  so
• 30:31
  new
• 30:31
  and
• 30:31
  it
• 30:32
  has
• 30:32
  changed
• 30:32
  so
• 30:32
  much
• 30:33
  that
• 30:33
  it's
• 30:33
  hard
• 30:34
  to
• 30:34
  think
• 30:34
  that
• 30:34
  it
• 30:34
  shouldn't
• 30:35
  keep
• 30:35
  changing
• 30:36
  and
• 30:36
  evolving
• 30:37
  a
• 30:38
  lot
• 30:38
  more.
• 30:39
  I
• 30:39
  think
• 30:39
  that
• 30:39
  it
• 30:39
  provides
• 30:40
  a
• 30:41
  timeframe
• 30:42
  that
• 30:43
  makes
• 30:43
  a
• 30:43
  lot
• 30:43
  of
• 30:43
  difference.
• 30:44
  And
• 30:44
  quite
• 30:44
  frankly,
• 30:46
  the
• 30:46
  reason
• 30:46
  we
• 30:46
  don't
• 30:47
  teach
• 30:47
  a
• 30:48
  lot
• 30:48
  of
• 30:48
  that
• 30:49
  ancient
• 30:50
  stuff
• 30:51
  is
• 30:51
  because
• 30:51
  I
• 30:52
  just
• 30:52
  don't
• 30:52
  think
• 30:52
  it's
• 30:53
  very
• 30:53
  interesting
• 30:54
  or
• 30:54
  very
• 30:54
  useful.
• 30:55
  Right.
• 30:55
  I
• 30:55
  mean,
• 30:55
  it's
• 30:56
  important
• 30:56
  to
• 30:57
  know
• 30:57
  the
• 30:57
  history
• 30:57
  of
• 30:58
  these
• 30:58
  things.
• 30:58
  And,
• 30:58
  look,
• 30:58
  I've,
• 30:59
  you
• 30:59
  know,
• 31:00
  I
• 31:00
  hope
• 31:00
  it
• 31:00
  shows
• 31:01
  that
• 31:01
  I
• 31:01
  know
• 31:01
  a
• 31:01
  little
• 31:02
  bit
• 31:02
  about
• 31:02
  the
• 31:02
  history
• 31:02
  of
• 31:02
  these
• 31:03
  things.
• 31:03
  And
• 31:03
  I've
• 31:03
  studied
• 31:04
  it
• 31:04
  and
• 31:04
  I've
• 31:04
  read
• 31:04
  it
• 31:04
  and
• 31:04
  I've
• 31:04
  tried
• 31:05
  to
• 31:05
  understand
• 31:05
  it,
• 31:06
  but
• 31:06
  this
• 31:06
  doesn't
• 31:07
  mean
• 31:07
  that
• 31:07
  I
• 31:07
  have
• 31:07
  to
• 31:07
  embrace,
• 31:08
  you
• 31:08
  know,
• 31:08
  the
• 31:09
  neoplatonic
• 31:09
  idea
• 31:10
  of
• 31:10
  the
• 31:10
  one,
• 31:10
  for
• 31:10
  example.
• 31:11
  Okay?
• 31:12
  It's
• 31:12
  like,
• 31:13
  it's
• 31:14
  just
• 31:14
  not
• 31:14
  interesting
• 31:15
  to
• 31:15
  me.
• 31:16
  The
• 31:16
  law
• 31:16
  of
• 31:16
  seven,
• 31:17
  the
• 31:17
  rays
• 31:18
  of
• 31:18
  creation,
• 31:19
  all
• 31:19
  this
• 31:19
  stuff,
• 31:20
  just
• 31:20
  not
• 31:21
  that
• 31:21
  interesting.
• 31:22
  This
• 31:22
  idea
• 31:22
  of,
• 31:23
  you
• 31:23
  know,
• 31:23
  humans
• 31:23
  being
• 31:23
  a
• 31:24
  three
• 31:24
  centered
• 31:25
  person,
• 31:25
  just
• 31:26
  not
• 31:26
  that
• 31:26
  interesting
• 31:27
  or
• 31:27
  particularly
• 31:27
  useful
• 31:28
  to
• 31:28
  me.
• 31:29
  Okay?
• 31:30
  So
• 31:31
  the
• 31:32
  reason
• 31:32
  I
• 31:32
  don't
• 31:33
  teach
• 31:33
  that
• 31:33
  stuff,
• 31:33
  we
• 31:33
  don't
• 31:34
  teach
• 31:34
  it
• 31:34
  in
• 31:34
  our
• 31:35
  approach,
• 31:35
  is
• 31:35
  because
• 31:36
  I
• 31:36
  just
• 31:36
  don't
• 31:36
  find
• 31:36
  it
• 31:37
  to
• 31:37
  be
• 31:37
  that
• 31:37
  useful.
• 31:38
  Okay.
• 31:39
  And
• 31:40
  I
• 31:40
  think
• 31:40
  the
• 31:40
  enneagram
• 31:41
  as
• 31:41
  a
• 31:41
  model
• 31:41
  of
• 31:42
  nine
• 31:42
  personality
• 31:43
  styles
• 31:43
  is
• 31:44
  really,
• 31:44
  really
• 31:44
  useful.
• 31:45
  And
• 31:46
  we
• 31:46
  have
• 31:46
  to
• 31:46
  say,
• 31:47
  well,
• 31:47
  what
• 31:47
  do
• 31:47
  we.
• 31:47
  What
• 31:48
  is
• 31:48
  it
• 31:48
  that
• 31:48
  we're
• 31:48
  talking
• 31:49
  about
• 31:49
  when
• 31:49
  we
• 31:49
  talk
• 31:49
  about
• 31:50
  those
• 31:50
  things?
• 31:51
  So,
• 31:51
  yeah,
• 31:52
  I'd
• 31:52
  like
• 31:52
  to
• 31:53
  hit
• 31:53
  real
• 31:53
  quick.
• 31:53
  In
• 31:54
  the
• 31:54
  remaining
• 31:54
  time
• 31:54
  we
• 31:55
  have
• 31:55
  left,
• 31:56
  let's
• 31:57
  define
• 31:57
  perennial
• 31:58
  and
• 31:58
  then
• 31:59
  also
• 32:00
  kind
• 32:00
  of
• 32:01
  give
• 32:01
  us
• 32:01
  a
• 32:01
  quick
• 32:02
  from
• 32:03
  Rizzo
• 32:03
  Hudson,
• 32:04
  Helen
• 32:04
  Palmer,
• 32:05
  all
• 32:05
  of
• 32:06
  those
• 32:06
  kind
• 32:06
  of
• 32:06
  filtering
• 32:07
  that
• 32:08
  sort
• 32:08
  of
• 32:08
  what's
• 32:08
  the
• 32:09
  history
• 32:09
  up
• 32:09
  to
• 32:09
  now?
• 32:10
  And
• 32:11
  what
• 32:11
  should
• 32:11
  we
• 32:11
  be
• 32:12
  aware
• 32:12
  of
• 32:12
  as
• 32:14
  what
• 32:14
  may
• 32:14
  be
• 32:14
  informing
• 32:15
  different
• 32:16
  relationships,
• 32:16
  different
• 32:17
  terminology,
• 32:17
  different
• 32:18
  schools
• 32:18
  of
• 32:18
  thought?
• 32:19
  So
• 32:20
  let's
• 32:20
  start
• 32:20
  with
• 32:20
  the
• 32:21
  term
• 32:21
  perennial
• 32:21
  philosophy.
• 32:23
  Perennial
• 32:23
  philosophy
• 32:24
  is
• 32:24
  the
• 32:24
  term.
• 32:25
  I
• 32:25
  don't
• 32:25
  think
• 32:26
  it
• 32:26
  was
• 32:26
  created
• 32:26
  by.
• 32:27
  But
• 32:27
  it
• 32:27
  was
• 32:27
  popularized
• 32:28
  by
• 32:28
  Aldous
• 32:29
  Huxley,
• 32:29
  I
• 32:30
  think,
• 32:30
  in
• 32:30
  the
• 32:30
  1940s,
• 32:31
  after
• 32:31
  World
• 32:32
  War
• 32:32
  two.
• 32:33
  It
• 32:33
  was
• 32:34
  a
• 32:34
  very
• 32:34
  dark
• 32:34
  time
• 32:34
  in
• 32:35
  human
• 32:35
  experience.
• 32:36
  Right?
• 32:36
  And
• 32:36
  so
• 32:36
  Huxley
• 32:37
  was
• 32:37
  trying
• 32:37
  to
• 32:37
  figure
• 32:38
  out,
• 32:38
  you
• 32:38
  know,
• 32:38
  what
• 32:38
  is
• 32:39
  the
• 32:39
  good
• 32:40
  in
• 32:40
  humanity
• 32:41
  after
• 32:42
  the
• 32:42
  devastation
• 32:43
  of
• 32:43
  World
• 32:43
  War
• 32:43
  two.
• 32:44
  So
• 32:45
  he
• 32:45
  popularized
• 32:45
  this
• 32:46
  idea
• 32:46
  that
• 32:47
  there
• 32:47
  is
• 32:48
  a
• 32:48
  perennial
• 32:49
  wisdom.
• 32:50
  Perennial
• 32:50
  means,
• 32:51
  I
• 32:51
  think,
• 32:51
  reoccurring,
• 32:52
  okay?
• 32:52
  Like,
• 32:52
  you
• 32:53
  know,
• 32:53
  perennial
• 32:53
  flowers,
• 32:54
  they
• 32:55
  bloom
• 32:55
  every
• 32:55
  year
• 32:56
  or
• 32:56
  whatever.
• 32:57
  So
• 32:57
  this
• 32:57
  idea,
• 32:58
  it
• 32:58
  caught
• 32:59
  on.
• 32:59
  And
• 32:59
  it
• 32:59
  was
• 33:00
  really
• 33:00
  popular
• 33:01
  up
• 33:01
  through
• 33:01
  the
• 33:01
  1970s.
• 33:02
  You
• 33:03
  know,
• 33:03
  kind
• 33:03
  of
• 33:03
  in
• 33:03
  the
• 33:03
  sixties
• 33:04
  and
• 33:04
  seventies,
• 33:04
  it
• 33:05
  really
• 33:05
  caught
• 33:05
  on.
• 33:05
  It
• 33:05
  was
• 33:06
  the
• 33:06
  age
• 33:06
  of
• 33:06
  Aquarius.
• 33:07
  All
• 33:08
  this
• 33:09
  new
• 33:09
  agey
• 33:09
  sort
• 33:09
  of
• 33:10
  stuff
• 33:10
  got
• 33:10
  started.
• 33:11
  And
• 33:12
  he
• 33:12
  was
• 33:12
  suggesting
• 33:13
  that
• 33:13
  there
• 33:14
  is
• 33:14
  a
• 33:14
  theme
• 33:15
  of
• 33:15
  common
• 33:16
  wisdom
• 33:17
  that
• 33:17
  permeates
• 33:18
  all
• 33:18
  the
• 33:18
  world
• 33:19
  religions.
• 33:20
  So
• 33:20
  it's
• 33:20
  a
• 33:21
  steady
• 33:22
  stream
• 33:22
  of
• 33:23
  these
• 33:23
  perennial
• 33:24
  ideas
• 33:25
  that
• 33:27
  keep
• 33:27
  commonality
• 33:28
  to
• 33:28
  all
• 33:28
  the
• 33:29
  great
• 33:29
  wisdom
• 33:29
  traditions.
• 33:31
  And
• 33:32
  it
• 33:32
  caught
• 33:32
  on.
• 33:33
  But
• 33:34
  nobody
• 33:34
  really
• 33:34
  takes
• 33:34
  it
• 33:35
  that
• 33:35
  seriously
• 33:35
  anymore,
• 33:36
  except
• 33:36
  in
• 33:37
  some
• 33:37
  parts
• 33:37
  of
• 33:37
  the
• 33:37
  Enneagram
• 33:38
  world
• 33:38
  and
• 33:39
  some
• 33:39
  other
• 33:40
  sort
• 33:40
  of
• 33:40
  areas.
• 33:41
  The
• 33:41
  problem
• 33:42
  with
• 33:42
  it
• 33:42
  is
• 33:43
  that
• 33:44
  correlation
• 33:45
  does
• 33:45
  not
• 33:46
  equal
• 33:46
  causation,
• 33:47
  okay?
• 33:47
  And
• 33:48
  just
• 33:48
  because
• 33:48
  they're
• 33:49
  shared
• 33:49
  ideas
• 33:51
  found
• 33:52
  in
• 33:52
  a
• 33:52
  multitude
• 33:53
  of
• 33:53
  approaches
• 33:55
  does
• 33:55
  not
• 33:55
  mean
• 33:56
  that
• 33:56
  there's
• 33:56
  an
• 33:57
  intentional
• 33:58
  coherence
• 33:59
  or
• 33:59
  consistency
• 34:01
  that
• 34:02
  is
• 34:02
  a
• 34:02
  steady
• 34:03
  stream
• 34:03
  through
• 34:04
  those
• 34:04
  things.
• 34:05
  So,
• 34:05
  for
• 34:06
  example,
• 34:06
  just
• 34:07
  to
• 34:07
  pick
• 34:07
  one
• 34:07
  example,
• 34:08
  the
• 34:08
  golden
• 34:08
  rule,
• 34:09
  there's
• 34:09
  a
• 34:10
  version
• 34:10
  of
• 34:10
  it
• 34:11
  in
• 34:11
  almost
• 34:12
  every
• 34:12
  tradition.
• 34:13
  Do
• 34:13
  unto
• 34:14
  others,
• 34:15
  don't
• 34:15
  do
• 34:15
  to
• 34:15
  others
• 34:16
  that
• 34:16
  which
• 34:16
  is
• 34:16
  hateful
• 34:17
  to
• 34:17
  you,
• 34:17
  etcetera.
• 34:19
  This
• 34:19
  does
• 34:19
  not
• 34:20
  mean
• 34:21
  that
• 34:21
  that
• 34:22
  is
• 34:22
  some
• 34:23
  special
• 34:23
  teaching
• 34:24
  that
• 34:24
  carries
• 34:25
  on
• 34:25
  in
• 34:26
  some
• 34:26
  stream.
• 34:27
  Just
• 34:27
  means
• 34:27
  that
• 34:27
  a
• 34:27
  lot
• 34:27
  of
• 34:28
  people
• 34:28
  stumbled
• 34:28
  upon
• 34:28
  that
• 34:29
  idea
• 34:30
  and
• 34:30
  the
• 34:30
  criticism
• 34:31
  of
• 34:31
  perennial
• 34:31
  philosophy
• 34:32
  that
• 34:33
  the
• 34:33
  reason
• 34:33
  why
• 34:33
  it's
• 34:33
  not
• 34:33
  really
• 34:34
  taken
• 34:34
  seriously
• 34:34
  anymore
• 34:35
  is
• 34:35
  that
• 34:35
  it
• 34:35
  doesn't
• 34:36
  account
• 34:36
  for
• 34:36
  all
• 34:36
  the
• 34:37
  contradictions
• 34:38
  and
• 34:38
  all
• 34:38
  the
• 34:38
  arguments
• 34:39
  between
• 34:39
  religions
• 34:40
  and
• 34:40
  all
• 34:40
  the
• 34:40
  disagreements
• 34:41
  between
• 34:41
  them.
• 34:42
  Okay,
• 34:43
  so
• 34:43
  it's
• 34:44
  just.
• 34:44
  It's.
• 34:44
  It's
• 34:45
  pattern
• 34:46
  hunting,
• 34:47
  right?
• 34:47
  It's.
• 34:47
  Oh,
• 34:47
  yeah.
• 34:48
  Look,
• 34:48
  this
• 34:48
  idea
• 34:48
  is
• 34:49
  here.
• 34:49
  This
• 34:49
  idea
• 34:49
  is
• 34:50
  here.
• 34:50
  This
• 34:50
  idea
• 34:50
  is
• 34:50
  here.
• 34:51
  So
• 34:51
  there
• 34:51
  must
• 34:51
  be
• 34:52
  some
• 34:52
  through
• 34:52
  line,
• 34:53
  right?
• 34:53
  Well,
• 34:53
  no,
• 34:53
  that's
• 34:54
  not
• 34:54
  how
• 34:54
  it
• 34:54
  works.
• 34:54
  Okay?
• 34:55
  And
• 34:55
  that's.
• 34:56
  I
• 34:56
  mean,
• 34:56
  that's
• 34:56
  not
• 34:57
  to
• 34:57
  say
• 34:57
  that,
• 34:57
  like,
• 34:58
  it
• 34:59
  could
• 34:59
  point
• 34:59
  to
• 34:59
  the
• 35:00
  helpfulness
• 35:01
  that
• 35:02
  multiple
• 35:03
  different
• 35:03
  people
• 35:04
  discovered
• 35:04
  that
• 35:05
  this
• 35:05
  is
• 35:05
  a
• 35:05
  really
• 35:05
  helpful
• 35:05
  concept
• 35:06
  for
• 35:06
  humanity.
• 35:06
  There's
• 35:07
  a.
• 35:07
  There's
• 35:07
  a
• 35:07
  common
• 35:07
  humanity
• 35:08
  thread,
• 35:09
  but
• 35:09
  that
• 35:09
  doesn't
• 35:09
  mean
• 35:09
  that
• 35:10
  there
• 35:10
  is
• 35:10
  a
• 35:11
  universal
• 35:12
  higher
• 35:14
  truth
• 35:14
  that
• 35:15
  exists
• 35:15
  that
• 35:16
  permeates
• 35:17
  all
• 35:17
  religions.
• 35:18
  Yes.
• 35:18
  And
• 35:18
  what's
• 35:19
  more
• 35:19
  troubling
• 35:20
  about
• 35:20
  the
• 35:20
  claim
• 35:21
  to
• 35:21
  me
• 35:22
  is
• 35:22
  this
• 35:23
  assertion
• 35:24
  that
• 35:24
  there
• 35:24
  is
• 35:24
  this
• 35:25
  kind
• 35:25
  of
• 35:25
  secret
• 35:26
  wisdom
• 35:28
  that
• 35:29
  is
• 35:29
  being
• 35:29
  protected
• 35:31
  and
• 35:31
  that
• 35:32
  is
• 35:32
  being
• 35:33
  brought
• 35:33
  out
• 35:34
  by
• 35:34
  certain
• 35:35
  people
• 35:35
  over
• 35:36
  time
• 35:36
  with
• 35:37
  the
• 35:37
  help
• 35:37
  of
• 35:37
  some
• 35:38
  guidance
• 35:38
  from
• 35:38
  above.
• 35:39
  I've
• 35:39
  actually
• 35:39
  heard
• 35:39
  Enneagram
• 35:40
  teachers
• 35:40
  talking
• 35:41
  about
• 35:41
  this,
• 35:41
  right?
• 35:41
  That
• 35:42
  this
• 35:42
  is
• 35:42
  what's
• 35:42
  happening
• 35:43
  with
• 35:43
  the
• 35:43
  enneagram.
• 35:44
  It's
• 35:44
  being
• 35:44
  brought
• 35:45
  out
• 35:45
  with
• 35:45
  guidance
• 35:46
  from
• 35:46
  above
• 35:46
  and
• 35:47
  these
• 35:47
  sort
• 35:48
  of
• 35:48
  things.
• 35:49
  There's
• 35:50
  no
• 35:50
  evidence
• 35:50
  of
• 35:51
  that.
• 35:51
  To
• 35:51
  me,
• 35:52
  there's
• 35:52
  no
• 35:53
  evidence
• 35:53
  that
• 35:53
  the
• 35:54
  enneagram
• 35:54
  of
• 35:55
  personality
• 35:56
  as
• 35:56
  it
• 35:56
  exists
• 35:57
  is
• 35:57
  part
• 35:57
  of
• 35:58
  some
• 35:58
  ancient
• 35:59
  perennial
• 36:00
  tradition
• 36:01
  it
• 36:02
  just
• 36:02
  ain't
• 36:02
  there,
• 36:03
  folks.
• 36:03
  Okay.
• 36:04
  Or
• 36:04
  that
• 36:04
  it
• 36:04
  even
• 36:05
  has
• 36:05
  the
• 36:05
  capacity
• 36:06
  to
• 36:06
  change
• 36:07
  the
• 36:07
  world.
• 36:08
  Yeah.
• 36:08
  I
• 36:09
  mean,
• 36:09
  that's
• 36:09
  a
• 36:09
  whole
• 36:09
  nother
• 36:09
  thing.
• 36:10
  Right?
• 36:10
  I
• 36:10
  mean,
• 36:10
  look,
• 36:11
  I'm
• 36:11
  never
• 36:12
  comfortable
• 36:12
  with
• 36:12
  world
• 36:13
  changers
• 36:13
  to
• 36:13
  begin
• 36:13
  with.
• 36:14
  Right.
• 36:14
  Because
• 36:15
  usually
• 36:15
  cause
• 36:15
  more
• 36:16
  trouble
• 36:16
  than
• 36:16
  they
• 36:17
  solve.
• 36:17
  But
• 36:17
  is
• 36:18
  it
• 36:18
  just
• 36:19
  oversimplifying
• 36:20
  the
• 36:20
  view
• 36:21
  that
• 36:21
  the
• 36:22
  fact
• 36:22
  that
• 36:22
  we're
• 36:22
  trying
• 36:23
  to
• 36:23
  explain
• 36:24
  human
• 36:24
  nature
• 36:25
  makes
• 36:26
  a
• 36:27
  lot
• 36:27
  of
• 36:28
  different
• 36:29
  models
• 36:30
  or
• 36:31
  ideas
• 36:31
  around
• 36:32
  it
• 36:32
  very
• 36:32
  similar?
• 36:33
  If
• 36:34
  we're
• 36:34
  trying
• 36:34
  to
• 36:34
  explain
• 36:35
  the
• 36:35
  same
• 36:35
  thing,
• 36:36
  of
• 36:36
  course
• 36:37
  they're
• 36:37
  going
• 36:37
  to
• 36:37
  be
• 36:38
  similar.
• 36:39
  And
• 36:40
  exactly
• 36:41
  doesn't
• 36:42
  mean
• 36:42
  that
• 36:42
  it's
• 36:42
  the
• 36:43
  same
• 36:43
  model.
• 36:43
  It's
• 36:44
  just
• 36:45
  we're
• 36:45
  trying
• 36:45
  to
• 36:45
  describe
• 36:46
  the
• 36:46
  same
• 36:46
  thing.
• 36:47
  Yeah.
• 36:48
  And
• 36:48
  so
• 36:48
  different
• 36:49
  people
• 36:49
  who
• 36:50
  take
• 36:50
  a,
• 36:50
  you
• 36:50
  know,
• 36:50
  say,
• 36:51
  hey,
• 36:51
  I'm
• 36:51
  going
• 36:51
  to
• 36:51
  try
• 36:51
  and
• 36:51
  figure
• 36:52
  people
• 36:52
  out.
• 36:53
  They're
• 36:53
  going
• 36:53
  to
• 36:53
  come
• 36:53
  up
• 36:53
  to
• 36:54
  the
• 36:54
  same
• 36:54
  conclusions,
• 36:55
  you
• 36:55
  know,
• 36:55
  in
• 36:55
  a
• 36:55
  lot
• 36:56
  of
• 36:56
  ways.
• 36:56
  Right.
• 36:56
  The
• 36:56
  golden
• 36:57
  rule
• 36:57
  is
• 36:57
  a
• 36:57
  great
• 36:57
  example
• 36:58
  of
• 36:58
  it.
• 36:58
  You
• 36:58
  know,
• 36:58
  I
• 36:58
  mean,
• 36:59
  it's.
• 36:59
  It's.
• 37:01
  People
• 37:01
  keep
• 37:01
  stumbling
• 37:02
  upon
• 37:02
  it
• 37:02
  in
• 37:02
  their
• 37:02
  own
• 37:03
  ways
• 37:03
  because
• 37:03
  it
• 37:03
  works.
• 37:04
  And
• 37:05
  so,
• 37:05
  you
• 37:05
  know,
• 37:05
  and
• 37:06
  so,
• 37:06
  you
• 37:06
  know,
• 37:06
  one
• 37:06
  of
• 37:06
  the
• 37:06
  arguments
• 37:07
  for
• 37:07
  the
• 37:07
  antiquity,
• 37:08
  the
• 37:08
  enneagram,
• 37:08
  is,
• 37:09
  oh,
• 37:09
  it
• 37:09
  was
• 37:09
  in
• 37:09
  Homer,
• 37:10
  right.
• 37:13
  Sort
• 37:13
  of.
• 37:14
  If
• 37:14
  we
• 37:14
  squint
• 37:15
  and
• 37:15
  we
• 37:15
  try
• 37:16
  to
• 37:16
  justify,
• 37:16
  we
• 37:16
  can
• 37:17
  see
• 37:17
  things
• 37:18
  that
• 37:18
  are
• 37:18
  very
• 37:18
  similar
• 37:19
  to
• 37:19
  the
• 37:19
  nine
• 37:19
  personality
• 37:20
  types
• 37:20
  in
• 37:20
  Homer's
• 37:21
  odyssey?
• 37:22
  Well,
• 37:23
  there's
• 37:23
  a
• 37:24
  couple
• 37:24
  of
• 37:24
  answers
• 37:24
  for
• 37:24
  that.
• 37:25
  One
• 37:26
  way
• 37:26
  of
• 37:26
  attempting
• 37:27
  to
• 37:27
  explain
• 37:27
  that
• 37:28
  is,
• 37:28
  well,
• 37:28
  see,
• 37:28
  there
• 37:28
  you
• 37:29
  go.
• 37:29
  It's
• 37:30
  ancient,
• 37:30
  and
• 37:30
  it
• 37:31
  popped
• 37:31
  up
• 37:31
  in
• 37:31
  Homer,
• 37:32
  and
• 37:33
  then
• 37:33
  it
• 37:33
  went
• 37:33
  back
• 37:34
  underground
• 37:34
  for
• 37:35
  everything
• 37:35
  else
• 37:35
  in
• 37:36
  the
• 37:36
  world.
• 37:36
  Right?
• 37:37
  Or
• 37:37
  you
• 37:37
  could
• 37:37
  say
• 37:38
  again,
• 37:38
  well,
• 37:39
  two
• 37:39
  guys
• 37:40
  happen
• 37:40
  to
• 37:40
  stumble
• 37:41
  upon
• 37:41
  the
• 37:41
  same
• 37:41
  kind
• 37:41
  of
• 37:41
  ideas
• 37:42
  and
• 37:43
  it's
• 37:43
  a
• 37:43
  coincidence,
• 37:44
  but
• 37:44
  these
• 37:45
  things
• 37:45
  happen.
• 37:46
  Or
• 37:46
  you
• 37:46
  could
• 37:46
  say,
• 37:46
  you
• 37:46
  know
• 37:47
  what?
• 37:47
  Oscar
• 37:47
  Ochazzo
• 37:48
  might
• 37:48
  have
• 37:48
  read
• 37:48
  Homer
• 37:49
  and
• 37:49
  used
• 37:49
  this
• 37:50
  as
• 37:50
  inspiration
• 37:50
  for
• 37:51
  how
• 37:51
  he
• 37:51
  mapped
• 37:51
  the
• 37:52
  personality
• 37:52
  types
• 37:52
  to
• 37:52
  the
• 37:53
  diagram.
• 37:54
  Those
• 37:54
  latter
• 37:54
  two
• 37:55
  seem
• 37:56
  like
• 37:56
  much
• 37:56
  more
• 37:56
  reasonable
• 37:57
  explanations
• 37:57
  to
• 37:58
  me
• 37:58
  than
• 37:58
  this
• 37:59
  whole
• 37:59
  secret
• 37:59
  society
• 38:00
  thing
• 38:00
  that
• 38:00
  nobody
• 38:01
  has
• 38:01
  any
• 38:01
  evidence
• 38:02
  of.
• 38:02
  So
• 38:03
  finally,
• 38:04
  let's
• 38:04
  kind
• 38:05
  of
• 38:05
  just
• 38:05
  revisit.
• 38:06
  How
• 38:06
  did
• 38:06
  we
• 38:06
  get
• 38:06
  from
• 38:08
  the
• 38:08
  Supreme
• 38:09
  Court
• 38:09
  case
• 38:10
  tonight?
• 38:10
  It
• 38:10
  wasn't
• 38:11
  the
• 38:11
  Supreme
• 38:11
  Court
• 38:11
  yet.
• 38:12
  Okay,
• 38:12
  well,
• 38:13
  okay,
• 38:13
  so,
• 38:14
  so
• 38:14
  when?
• 38:15
  Five
• 38:15
  minutes
• 38:15
  or
• 38:15
  less.
• 38:16
  Yeah.
• 38:17
  So,
• 38:18
  look,
• 38:18
  so
• 38:19
  here's
• 38:20
  what
• 38:20
  happens.
• 38:22
  Here's
• 38:22
  what
• 38:23
  happened.
• 38:23
  And
• 38:23
  then
• 38:23
  here's
• 38:23
  what
• 38:24
  happens.
• 38:24
  So
• 38:25
  what
• 38:25
  happened
• 38:25
  was
• 38:26
  once
• 38:26
  it
• 38:27
  became
• 38:27
  okay
• 38:28
  for,
• 38:29
  you
• 38:30
  know,
• 38:30
  people
• 38:30
  to
• 38:30
  write
• 38:30
  Enneagram
• 38:31
  books,
• 38:31
  yet
• 38:32
  a
• 38:32
  bunch
• 38:32
  of
• 38:32
  people
• 38:32
  write
• 38:32
  Enneagram
• 38:33
  books,
• 38:33
  right?
• 38:33
  And
• 38:34
  so
• 38:34
  there
• 38:34
  were
• 38:34
  kind
• 38:35
  of
• 38:35
  books,
• 38:36
  you
• 38:36
  know,
• 38:36
  waiting
• 38:36
  to
• 38:37
  be
• 38:37
  published.
• 38:37
  Don
• 38:37
  Riso's
• 38:38
  personality
• 38:39
  types,
• 38:39
  for
• 38:39
  example,
• 38:40
  the
• 38:40
  Patrick
• 38:41
  O'Leary
• 38:42
  and
• 38:42
  Maria
• 38:42
  Biesing
• 38:43
  and
• 38:43
  I
• 38:43
  forget
• 38:43
  who
• 38:44
  the
• 38:44
  other
• 38:44
  author
• 38:45
  book,
• 38:45
  their
• 38:46
  book
• 38:46
  was
• 38:46
  ready
• 38:46
  to
• 38:47
  go.
• 38:47
  I
• 38:47
  think
• 38:48
  my
• 38:48
  understanding
• 38:48
  is
• 38:49
  Achazo
• 38:49
  sued.
• 38:49
  That's
• 38:50
  what
• 38:50
  was
• 38:50
  before
• 38:51
  Calum
• 38:52
  Palmer's.
• 38:53
  Yeah,
• 38:53
  I
• 38:53
  think
• 38:53
  it
• 38:53
  was
• 38:54
  written
• 38:54
  before,
• 38:55
  and
• 38:55
  I
• 38:56
  know
• 38:56
  that
• 38:56
  Achazo
• 38:57
  sued
• 38:57
  them
• 38:58
  as
• 38:58
  well.
• 38:59
  But
• 39:00
  the
• 39:01
  Palmer
• 39:02
  one
• 39:02
  was
• 39:02
  the
• 39:02
  one
• 39:02
  that
• 39:03
  really
• 39:03
  set
• 39:03
  the
• 39:03
  precedence
• 39:04
  for
• 39:05
  the
• 39:05
  legality
• 39:06
  of
• 39:06
  it
• 39:06
  going
• 39:07
  forward.
• 39:08
  And
• 39:09
  you
• 39:09
  can
• 39:09
  look
• 39:09
  it
• 39:10
  up.
• 39:10
  I
• 39:10
  mean,
• 39:10
  people
• 39:10
  can
• 39:11
  look
• 39:11
  up
• 39:12
  reading
• 39:13
  about
• 39:13
  this
• 39:13
  lawsuit.
• 39:14
  It's
• 39:14
  a
• 39:14
  very
• 39:14
  famous
• 39:15
  intellectual
• 39:16
  property
• 39:16
  case.
• 39:16
  Are
• 39:17
  you
• 39:17
  able
• 39:17
  to
• 39:17
  get
• 39:17
  a
• 39:18
  link?
• 39:18
  I
• 39:18
  can
• 39:19
  probably
• 39:19
  find
• 39:19
  a
• 39:19
  link,
• 39:19
  yeah.
• 39:20
  Okay.
• 39:20
  So
• 39:20
  we'll
• 39:20
  put
• 39:20
  it
• 39:20
  in
• 39:20
  the
• 39:20
  show
• 39:21
  notes.
• 39:21
  All
• 39:21
  right.
• 39:22
  From
• 39:22
  there.
• 39:23
  Again,
• 39:23
  you
• 39:24
  have
• 39:24
  people
• 39:24
  in
• 39:25
  different
• 39:25
  environments
• 39:26
  teaching
• 39:26
  different
• 39:27
  understandings
• 39:28
  of
• 39:28
  the
• 39:28
  Enneagram
• 39:29
  because
• 39:29
  they
• 39:29
  all
• 39:29
  got
• 39:29
  pieces
• 39:30
  of
• 39:30
  it.
• 39:30
  Like
• 39:31
  I
• 39:31
  said,
• 39:32
  bob
• 39:32
  oaks
• 39:32
  only
• 39:32
  got
• 39:33
  weeks,
• 39:33
  one
• 39:33
  through
• 39:34
  eight
• 39:34
  of
• 39:34
  the
• 39:35
  ten
• 39:35
  weeks.
• 39:35
  Okay,
• 39:36
  so
• 39:36
  he
• 39:36
  didn't
• 39:36
  say
• 39:36
  he
• 39:36
  didn't
• 39:36
  know
• 39:37
  anything
• 39:37
  about
• 39:37
  subtypes.
• 39:38
  Right.
• 39:38
  And,
• 39:39
  you
• 39:39
  know,
• 39:39
  and
• 39:39
  he
• 39:40
  misunderstood
• 39:41
  the
• 39:41
  idea
• 39:41
  of
• 39:41
  wings,
• 39:42
  which
• 39:42
  is
• 39:42
  where
• 39:42
  the
• 39:42
  idea
• 39:43
  of
• 39:43
  wings
• 39:43
  came
• 39:43
  from.
• 39:44
  Okay.
• 39:44
  It's
• 39:45
  not
• 39:45
  part
• 39:45
  of
• 39:45
  the
• 39:45
  real
• 39:45
  teaching,
• 39:46
  the
• 39:47
  thing
• 39:47
  of
• 39:47
  wings.
• 39:47
  Original
• 39:48
  teaching.
• 39:48
  Original
• 39:49
  teaching
• 39:49
  or.
• 39:50
  Yeah,
• 39:50
  well,
• 39:52
  so
• 39:52
  it's
• 39:52
  not
• 39:52
  part
• 39:53
  of
• 39:53
  the
• 39:53
  original
• 39:53
  teaching.
• 39:53
  No,
• 39:54
  that's,
• 39:54
  that's
• 39:54
  fair.
• 39:55
  So
• 39:55
  you
• 39:55
  had
• 39:56
  other
• 39:56
  people
• 39:57
  teaching
• 39:58
  different
• 39:58
  things
• 39:59
  because
• 39:59
  they
• 39:59
  got
• 40:00
  different
• 40:00
  pieces
• 40:01
  of
• 40:01
  it
• 40:02
  and
• 40:02
  what
• 40:02
  people
• 40:03
  are
• 40:03
  want
• 40:03
  to
• 40:03
  do.
• 40:03
  And
• 40:04
  this
• 40:04
  gets
• 40:04
  to
• 40:04
  the
• 40:04
  whole,
• 40:05
  you
• 40:06
  know
• 40:06
  what,
• 40:06
  boy,
• 40:06
  we're
• 40:07
  not
• 40:07
  going
• 40:07
  to
• 40:07
  get
• 40:07
  through
• 40:07
  the
• 40:07
  episode
• 40:08
  without
• 40:08
  invoking
• 40:09
  Popper,
• 40:09
  are
• 40:09
  we?
• 40:10
  Okay,
• 40:10
  so
• 40:10
  here's
• 40:10
  how
• 40:11
  things
• 40:11
  work.
• 40:12
  Squeezing
• 40:13
  it
• 40:13
  in,
• 40:13
  baby.
• 40:14
  Okay.
• 40:14
  Lee.
• 40:14
  Lee
• 40:15
  fields.
• 40:15
  Bingo.
• 40:16
  Clip
• 40:16
  there.
• 40:18
  The
• 40:19
  way
• 40:19
  knowledge
• 40:20
  evolves
• 40:20
  is
• 40:21
  we
• 40:21
  come
• 40:21
  up
• 40:21
  with
• 40:22
  an
• 40:22
  explanation
• 40:23
  of
• 40:23
  something,
• 40:24
  and
• 40:24
  we
• 40:24
  run
• 40:25
  with
• 40:25
  that
• 40:25
  explanation
• 40:26
  until
• 40:26
  we
• 40:27
  encounter
• 40:27
  a
• 40:27
  situation
• 40:28
  or
• 40:28
  a
• 40:28
  problem
• 40:29
  that
• 40:29
  our
• 40:29
  explanation
• 40:30
  does
• 40:30
  not
• 40:31
  solve.
• 40:31
  And
• 40:32
  then
• 40:32
  we
• 40:32
  go
• 40:32
  back
• 40:32
  and
• 40:33
  we
• 40:33
  tweak
• 40:33
  the
• 40:33
  theory.
• 40:34
  Okay,
• 40:34
  so
• 40:35
  wait
• 40:35
  a
• 40:35
  minute,
• 40:35
  I'm
• 40:35
  seeing
• 40:36
  different
• 40:36
  kinds
• 40:37
  of
• 40:37
  eights.
• 40:38
  What
• 40:39
  accounts
• 40:39
  for
• 40:40
  that?
• 40:40
  Okay?
• 40:40
  And
• 40:41
  what
• 40:41
  the
• 40:41
  Jesuits
• 40:41
  did
• 40:42
  was
• 40:42
  they
• 40:42
  came
• 40:42
  up
• 40:42
  with
• 40:42
  this
• 40:43
  idea
• 40:43
  of
• 40:43
  wings,
• 40:43
  okay?
• 40:44
  Now,
• 40:44
  people
• 40:45
  who
• 40:45
  understood
• 40:45
  the
• 40:45
  subtypes
• 40:46
  didn't
• 40:46
  come
• 40:46
  up
• 40:47
  with
• 40:47
  this
• 40:47
  idea
• 40:47
  of
• 40:47
  wings
• 40:48
  because
• 40:48
  they
• 40:48
  understood
• 40:49
  why
• 40:50
  eights
• 40:50
  looked
• 40:50
  different
• 40:51
  from
• 40:51
  each
• 40:51
  other
• 40:51
  and
• 40:52
  so
• 40:52
  forth.
• 40:52
  Okay?
• 40:53
  So
• 40:53
  knowledge
• 40:54
  is
• 40:54
  iterative.
• 40:55
  And
• 40:55
  the
• 40:56
  reason
• 40:56
  that
• 40:56
  I
• 40:57
  have
• 40:57
  ended
• 40:57
  up,
• 40:58
  you
• 40:58
  know,
• 40:58
  teaching
• 40:58
  the
• 40:59
  things
• 40:59
  that
• 40:59
  we
• 41:00
  teach
• 41:01
  is
• 41:01
  because
• 41:02
  I
• 41:02
  encountered
• 41:03
  problems
• 41:03
  with
• 41:03
  the
• 41:04
  existing
• 41:04
  theories
• 41:05
  in
• 41:05
  application
• 41:06
  in
• 41:06
  the
• 41:06
  real
• 41:07
  world
• 41:07
  and
• 41:07
  had
• 41:08
  to
• 41:08
  adjust
• 41:08
  the
• 41:08
  theory
• 41:09
  to
• 41:09
  solve
• 41:10
  those
• 41:10
  problems,
• 41:11
  okay?
• 41:12
  And
• 41:12
  this
• 41:12
  is
• 41:12
  what
• 41:12
  everybody's
• 41:13
  been
• 41:13
  doing,
• 41:13
  right?
• 41:14
  They
• 41:14
  come
• 41:14
  up
• 41:14
  with
• 41:14
  their
• 41:15
  own
• 41:15
  way
• 41:15
  of
• 41:15
  teaching
• 41:16
  the
• 41:16
  Enneagram
• 41:16
  because
• 41:16
  they
• 41:17
  encounter
• 41:17
  different
• 41:18
  problems
• 41:19
  that
• 41:19
  they
• 41:19
  then
• 41:19
  try
• 41:20
  to
• 41:20
  solve
• 41:21
  through
• 41:21
  iterations
• 41:22
  of
• 41:22
  the
• 41:23
  theory.
• 41:24
  And
• 41:24
  that's
• 41:24
  how
• 41:25
  it
• 41:25
  should
• 41:26
  work.
• 41:27
  And
• 41:27
  that
• 41:28
  is
• 41:28
  a
• 41:28
  good
• 41:29
  thing,
• 41:29
  as
• 41:30
  long
• 41:30
  as
• 41:30
  people
• 41:30
  are
• 41:31
  being
• 41:31
  honest
• 41:32
  about
• 41:32
  how
• 41:33
  they
• 41:33
  came
• 41:33
  to
• 41:33
  their
• 41:34
  ideas
• 41:34
  and
• 41:35
  recognizing
• 41:35
  that,
• 41:36
  you
• 41:36
  know,
• 41:36
  what
• 41:36
  I'm
• 41:36
  doing
• 41:37
  is
• 41:37
  different
• 41:37
  from
• 41:37
  what
• 41:38
  this
• 41:38
  other
• 41:38
  person's
• 41:39
  doing.
• 41:39
  And
• 41:40
  if
• 41:40
  you're
• 41:40
  not
• 41:40
  teaching
• 41:41
  a
• 41:41
  Chazzo's
• 41:41
  enneagram
• 41:42
  of
• 41:42
  personality,
• 41:43
  then
• 41:44
  you're
• 41:44
  not
• 41:44
  teaching
• 41:45
  the
• 41:45
  original
• 41:46
  Enneagram
• 41:47
  personality.
• 41:48
  Real
• 41:48
  simple.
• 41:49
  We're
• 41:49
  not.
• 41:50
  Absolutely.
• 41:51
  We're
• 41:51
  teaching.
• 41:53
  Yes.
• 41:54
  Nobody's
• 41:54
  teaching
• 41:55
  it
• 41:55
  outside
• 41:55
  of
• 41:55
  a
• 41:55
  Chazzo,
• 41:56
  I
• 41:56
  think,
• 41:56
  is
• 41:56
  your
• 41:56
  point,
• 41:56
  Mario
• 41:57
  Jose.
• 41:57
  Right.
• 41:57
  Even
• 41:57
  these
• 41:58
  people
• 41:58
  who,
• 41:58
  you
• 41:59
  know,
• 41:59
  they're
• 41:59
  teaching
• 41:59
  the
• 42:00
  Naranjo
• 42:00
  approach,
• 42:01
  right?
• 42:01
  Or
• 42:01
  the,
• 42:01
  you
• 42:01
  know,
• 42:02
  the
• 42:02
  insight
• 42:03
  approach
• 42:03
  of,
• 42:03
  you
• 42:03
  know,
• 42:04
  the
• 42:04
  Enneagram
• 42:05
  institute,
• 42:05
  they're
• 42:06
  not
• 42:06
  teaching
• 42:06
  what
• 42:06
  Ochazo
• 42:07
  taught
• 42:08
  when
• 42:08
  it
• 42:08
  comes
• 42:08
  to
• 42:08
  the
• 42:08
  types,
• 42:09
  okay?
• 42:09
  They're
• 42:10
  teaching
• 42:10
  their
• 42:10
  own
• 42:11
  version
• 42:12
  and
• 42:12
  iteration
• 42:13
  of
• 42:13
  Enneagram
• 42:14
  theory
• 42:15
  that
• 42:15
  grew
• 42:16
  out
• 42:16
  of
• 42:16
  what
• 42:16
  Achazo
• 42:17
  originally
• 42:17
  taught.
• 42:19
  So,
• 42:19
  final
• 42:20
  question.
• 42:21
  So
• 42:21
  what
• 42:24
  people
• 42:24
  walking
• 42:25
  away
• 42:25
  from
• 42:25
  this
• 42:25
  episode,
• 42:26
  is
• 42:26
  this
• 42:26
  just
• 42:26
  like
• 42:26
  a.
• 42:26
  Hmm,
• 42:27
  that's
• 42:27
  interesting
• 42:27
  to
• 42:28
  know
• 42:28
  episode,
• 42:28
  or
• 42:28
  is
• 42:28
  there
• 42:29
  something
• 42:29
  that
• 42:30
  we
• 42:30
  can
• 42:30
  walk
• 42:30
  away
• 42:31
  with?
• 42:31
  My
• 42:32
  hope
• 42:33
  is
• 42:33
  that
• 42:34
  people
• 42:35
  will
• 42:37
  understand
• 42:38
  why
• 42:38
  there's
• 42:38
  so
• 42:38
  much
• 42:39
  variation
• 42:40
  in
• 42:41
  what
• 42:41
  is
• 42:41
  commonly
• 42:41
  called
• 42:42
  the
• 42:42
  enneagram.
• 42:42
  Okay,
• 42:43
  that's
• 42:43
  one
• 42:43
  thing,
• 42:43
  right?
• 42:44
  That
• 42:44
  there's
• 42:45
  no
• 42:45
  true
• 42:45
  enneagram.
• 42:47
  There
• 42:47
  are
• 42:48
  different
• 42:48
  approaches
• 42:49
  to
• 42:49
  the
• 42:49
  same
• 42:49
  system.
• 42:50
  And
• 42:50
  then
• 42:50
  we
• 42:50
  have
• 42:50
  to
• 42:51
  judge
• 42:51
  each
• 42:51
  of
• 42:51
  those
• 42:52
  approaches,
• 42:53
  not
• 42:53
  on
• 42:53
  its
• 42:54
  authenticity
• 42:55
  of,
• 42:55
  you
• 42:56
  know,
• 42:56
  what
• 42:56
  it's,
• 42:56
  you
• 42:56
  know,
• 42:57
  provenance
• 42:58
  is
• 42:58
  or
• 42:58
  what
• 42:58
  the
• 42:59
  bona
• 42:59
  fides
• 42:59
  of
• 43:00
  it
• 43:00
  are.
• 43:01
  But
• 43:02
  does
• 43:02
  this
• 43:03
  work?
• 43:04
  Okay,
• 43:04
  does
• 43:05
  this
• 43:05
  make
• 43:06
  sense?
• 43:06
  Is
• 43:06
  this
• 43:07
  logical?
• 43:07
  Does
• 43:08
  this
• 43:08
  help
• 43:08
  me
• 43:09
  in
• 43:09
  some
• 43:09
  way?
• 43:10
  Okay,
• 43:10
  so
• 43:10
  that's,
• 43:10
  number
• 43:11
  one.
• 43:11
  Different
• 43:12
  approaches.
• 43:12
  That's
• 43:12
  okay.
• 43:13
  Just
• 43:13
  like
• 43:13
  it's
• 43:14
  okay
• 43:14
  to
• 43:14
  be
• 43:14
  either
• 43:15
  a
• 43:15
  Roman
• 43:15
  Catholic
• 43:16
  or
• 43:16
  a
• 43:16
  Lutheran
• 43:16
  or
• 43:16
  a
• 43:17
  Methodist
• 43:17
  or
• 43:17
  a
• 43:17
  Baptist
• 43:18
  or
• 43:18
  whatever
• 43:18
  you
• 43:18
  want
• 43:18
  to
• 43:18
  be,
• 43:19
  and
• 43:19
  you're
• 43:19
  still
• 43:19
  a
• 43:20
  Christian.
• 43:20
  Okay?
• 43:21
  From
• 43:21
  my
• 43:21
  view,
• 43:22
  that's
• 43:23
  part
• 43:23
  of
• 43:23
  it.
• 43:24
  Number
• 43:25
  two
• 43:26
  is
• 43:26
  we
• 43:27
  have
• 43:27
  to
• 43:27
  be.
• 43:28
  Look,
• 43:28
  if
• 43:28
  you
• 43:29
  want
• 43:29
  to
• 43:29
  think
• 43:30
  of
• 43:30
  yourself
• 43:30
  as
• 43:30
  a
• 43:31
  seeker
• 43:31
  after
• 43:31
  truth
• 43:32
  in
• 43:32
  some
• 43:32
  way,
• 43:34
  try
• 43:34
  to
• 43:34
  understand
• 43:35
  the
• 43:35
  truth.
• 43:36
  Try
• 43:36
  to
• 43:36
  apply
• 43:37
  critical
• 43:38
  thinking
• 43:38
  to
• 43:39
  the
• 43:39
  stories
• 43:39
  that
• 43:39
  people
• 43:40
  tell
• 43:40
  you.
• 43:40
  And
• 43:40
  this
• 43:40
  is
• 43:41
  one
• 43:41
  of
• 43:41
  the
• 43:41
  things,
• 43:41
  again,
• 43:41
  that
• 43:42
  ochazo
• 43:43
  kind
• 43:44
  of
• 43:44
  mocks
• 43:45
  that
• 43:45
  people
• 43:46
  are
• 43:46
  just
• 43:46
  being
• 43:47
  told,
• 43:47
  oh,
• 43:48
  this
• 43:48
  came
• 43:48
  from
• 43:48
  the
• 43:48
  Sufis.
• 43:49
  So
• 43:49
  they
• 43:49
  just
• 43:50
  swallow
• 43:50
  it
• 43:50
  whole
• 43:51
  and
• 43:51
  then
• 43:51
  start
• 43:51
  repeating
• 43:52
  the
• 43:52
  story
• 43:52
  that
• 43:53
  it
• 43:53
  came
• 43:53
  from
• 43:53
  the
• 43:53
  Sufis.
• 43:54
  And,
• 43:55
  you
• 43:56
  know,
• 43:56
  it's
• 43:57
  hard
• 43:57
  to
• 43:57
  consider
• 43:58
  yourself.
• 43:59
  Now,
• 43:59
  number
• 43:59
  one,
• 44:00
  that's
• 44:00
  an
• 44:00
  easy
• 44:00
  trap
• 44:01
  to
• 44:01
  fall
• 44:01
  into,
• 44:02
  right?
• 44:02
  Because
• 44:03
  this
• 44:03
  Enneagram
• 44:03
  thing,
• 44:03
  it's
• 44:04
  so
• 44:04
  powerful,
• 44:05
  and
• 44:06
  it
• 44:06
  impacts
• 44:06
  me
• 44:07
  in
• 44:07
  such
• 44:07
  a
• 44:07
  big
• 44:07
  way
• 44:08
  that
• 44:08
  I'm
• 44:09
  just
• 44:09
  willing
• 44:09
  to
• 44:09
  believe
• 44:10
  that
• 44:10
  it
• 44:10
  came
• 44:10
  from
• 44:11
  the
• 44:11
  Sufis
• 44:11
  because
• 44:12
  it
• 44:12
  just
• 44:12
  feels
• 44:12
  so
• 44:13
  cool.
• 44:15
  There's
• 44:15
  not
• 44:15
  really.
• 44:15
  There's
• 44:16
  no,
• 44:16
  like,
• 44:16
  shame
• 44:16
  in
• 44:16
  it.
• 44:17
  It's
• 44:17
  understandable.
• 44:18
  It's
• 44:18
  understandable.
• 44:19
  But
• 44:20
  it
• 44:20
  shows
• 44:21
  us
• 44:22
  that
• 44:22
  we
• 44:22
  shouldn't
• 44:23
  just
• 44:23
  believe
• 44:24
  what
• 44:24
  people
• 44:24
  tell
• 44:25
  us,
• 44:25
  what
• 44:26
  our
• 44:26
  politicians
• 44:27
  tell
• 44:27
  us,
• 44:28
  okay?
• 44:28
  What
• 44:29
  the
• 44:29
  people
• 44:29
  in
• 44:29
  our
• 44:30
  community
• 44:31
  tell
• 44:31
  us
• 44:32
  just
• 44:32
  because
• 44:32
  we
• 44:33
  want
• 44:33
  it
• 44:33
  to
• 44:33
  be
• 44:34
  true.
• 44:35
  We
• 44:35
  have
• 44:36
  to
• 44:36
  be
• 44:36
  skeptics,
• 44:37
  right?
• 44:38
  We
• 44:39
  have
• 44:39
  to
• 44:39
  be
• 44:39
  careful.
• 44:40
  But.
• 44:40
  But
• 44:41
  you
• 44:41
  can
• 44:41
  still
• 44:41
  trust
• 44:42
  some
• 44:42
  people
• 44:42
  in
• 44:42
  your
• 44:42
  community.
• 44:43
  Like,
• 44:43
  it's.
• 44:43
  It's
• 44:44
  not
• 44:44
  a.
• 44:44
  It's
• 44:44
  not
• 44:45
  everyone's
• 44:45
  out
• 44:45
  there
• 44:45
  lying
• 44:46
  to
• 44:46
  you,
• 44:46
  but.
• 44:48
  Well,
• 44:48
  I'm
• 44:48
  not
• 44:49
  so
• 44:49
  sure.
• 44:49
  But
• 44:51
  showing
• 44:52
  your
• 44:52
  strategy
• 44:53
  here.
• 44:53
  Showing
• 44:53
  my
• 44:54
  community.
• 44:54
  Yeah.
• 44:55
  No.
• 44:56
  So,
• 44:56
  look,
• 44:57
  you
• 44:57
  know
• 44:57
  what?
• 44:57
  Again,
• 44:58
  this
• 44:58
  is
• 44:58
  what
• 44:58
  we.
• 44:58
  We
• 44:59
  teach
• 44:59
  people.
• 45:00
  Skepticism
• 45:01
  needs
• 45:01
  to
• 45:01
  be
• 45:02
  in
• 45:02
  proportion
• 45:03
  to
• 45:03
  the
• 45:04
  claim,
• 45:05
  okay?
• 45:06
  If
• 45:06
  somebody
• 45:07
  says,
• 45:07
  hey,
• 45:07
  it's
• 45:08
  raining
• 45:08
  outside
• 45:08
  today,
• 45:09
  all
• 45:09
  right,
• 45:09
  or
• 45:09
  it's
• 45:10
  going
• 45:10
  to
• 45:10
  rain,
• 45:11
  I'm
• 45:11
  not
• 45:11
  going
• 45:11
  to
• 45:11
  say,
• 45:12
  well,
• 45:12
  what
• 45:12
  do
• 45:12
  you
• 45:12
  know?
• 45:12
  Are
• 45:13
  you
• 45:13
  a
• 45:13
  weatherman?
• 45:13
  You
• 45:13
  know,
• 45:14
  where's
• 45:14
  your
• 45:14
  meteorology
• 45:15
  degree?
• 45:15
  Or
• 45:16
  that
• 45:16
  sort
• 45:16
  of.
• 45:17
  I
• 45:17
  don't
• 45:17
  care.
• 45:17
  But
• 45:17
  it's
• 45:18
  not
• 45:18
  a
• 45:18
  big
• 45:18
  deal.
• 45:19
  Okay?
• 45:20
  We
• 45:20
  always
• 45:21
  have
• 45:21
  to
• 45:21
  measure
• 45:21
  our
• 45:22
  skepticism
• 45:22
  to
• 45:22
  the
• 45:23
  claim.
• 45:24
  And
• 45:24
  the
• 45:25
  grander
• 45:25
  the
• 45:25
  claim,
• 45:26
  the
• 45:26
  bigger
• 45:26
  the
• 45:26
  claim,
• 45:27
  the
• 45:27
  more
• 45:27
  skeptical
• 45:28
  we
• 45:28
  should
• 45:28
  be.
• 45:29
  Extraordinary
• 45:29
  claims
• 45:30
  require
• 45:30
  extraordinary
• 45:31
  evidence
• 45:32
  when
• 45:32
  it
• 45:32
  comes
• 45:33
  to
• 45:33
  claiming
• 45:34
  that
• 45:34
  this
• 45:34
  system
• 45:34
  is
• 45:35
  ancient
• 45:35
  and,
• 45:36
  you
• 45:36
  know,
• 45:36
  that
• 45:37
  we're
• 45:37
  having
• 45:38
  things
• 45:38
  revealed
• 45:39
  to
• 45:39
  us
• 45:39
  and
• 45:39
  we're
• 45:39
  being
• 45:40
  guided
• 45:40
  from
• 45:40
  above.
• 45:41
  Those
• 45:42
  are
• 45:42
  big
• 45:42
  frickin
• 45:43
  claims.
• 45:44
  Okay?
• 45:44
  And
• 45:45
  they
• 45:45
  require
• 45:45
  big
• 45:46
  evidence.
• 45:47
  And
• 45:48
  so
• 45:48
  we
• 45:48
  hear
• 45:49
  something
• 45:49
  like
• 45:49
  that
• 45:49
  from
• 45:50
  people
• 45:50
  we
• 45:51
  trust
• 45:52
  as
• 45:52
  Enneagram
• 45:52
  teachers.
• 45:53
  And
• 45:55
  I
• 45:56
  still,
• 45:57
  if
• 45:57
  it's.
• 45:58
  If
• 45:58
  it's
• 45:58
  a
• 45:58
  big
• 45:58
  claim,
• 45:59
  it's
• 45:59
  like,
• 45:59
  well,
• 45:59
  that's
• 46:00
  interesting,
• 46:00
  but
• 46:00
  don't
• 46:01
  buy
• 46:01
  it
• 46:01
  hook,
• 46:01
  line,
• 46:01
  and
• 46:02
  sinker.
• 46:02
  Either
• 46:03
  do
• 46:03
  your
• 46:03
  own
• 46:03
  research
• 46:04
  or
• 46:04
  hold
• 46:04
  it
• 46:04
  very,
• 46:05
  very,
• 46:05
  very
• 46:05
  loosely.
• 46:06
  Right.
• 46:07
  Okay.
• 46:08
  And
• 46:08
  be
• 46:08
  careful
• 46:08
  about
• 46:09
  what
• 46:09
  you
• 46:09
  repeat.
• 46:10
  Yeah.
• 46:10
  All
• 46:11
  right.
• 46:11
  So.
• 46:11
  Well,
• 46:12
  we
• 46:12
  also
• 46:12
  did
• 46:13
  an
• 46:13
  episode,
• 46:14
  I
• 46:14
  don't
• 46:14
  know,
• 46:14
  about
• 46:14
  a
• 46:15
  year
• 46:15
  ago
• 46:16
  now
• 46:17
  on
• 46:17
  the
• 46:17
  history
• 46:17
  of
• 46:17
  the
• 46:17
  enneagram
• 46:18
  as
• 46:18
  well.
• 46:18
  Probably
• 46:19
  repeated
• 46:19
  a
• 46:19
  few
• 46:19
  things
• 46:20
  here,
• 46:20
  but
• 46:20
  we'll
• 46:21
  have
• 46:21
  that
• 46:21
  in
• 46:21
  the
• 46:21
  show
• 46:21
  notes
• 46:22
  as
• 46:22
  well.
• 46:22
  Make
• 46:22
  sure
• 46:23
  to
• 46:23
  check
• 46:23
  that
• 46:23
  out.
• 46:24
  I
• 46:24
  think
• 46:24
  we'll
• 46:25
  also
• 46:25
  compile
• 46:26
  a
• 46:26
  list
• 46:26
  of
• 46:26
  resources
• 46:27
  you
• 46:27
  can
• 46:27
  find
• 46:27
  in
• 46:27
  the
• 46:28
  show
• 46:28
  notes.
• 46:28
  And
• 46:29
  feel
• 46:29
  free
• 46:29
  to
• 46:29
  reach
• 46:29
  out
• 46:29
  to
• 46:30
  us
• 46:30
  with
• 46:30
  any
• 46:30
  questions.
• 46:30
  I'm
• 46:31
  sure
• 46:31
  we'll
• 46:31
  have
• 46:31
  more
• 46:31
  to
• 46:31
  say
• 46:31
  on
• 46:32
  this
• 46:32
  later,
• 46:33
  but
• 46:34
  thanks,
• 46:34
  y'all.
• 46:35
  Bye.
• 46:38
  Thanks
• 46:39
  for
• 46:39
  listening
• 46:39
  to
• 46:39
  the
• 46:39
  awareness
• 46:40
  to
• 46:40
  Action
• 46:40
  Enneagram
• 46:41
  podcast.
• 46:42
  If
• 46:42
  you're
• 46:42
  interested
• 46:42
  in
• 46:43
  more
• 46:43
  information
• 46:43
  about
• 46:44
  awareness
• 46:44
  to
• 46:44
  action,
• 46:45
  their
• 46:45
  certification
• 46:45
  programs,
• 46:46
  or
• 46:46
  events,
• 46:47
  feel
• 46:47
  free
• 46:48
  to
• 46:48
  reach
• 46:48
  out
• 46:48
  to
• 46:48
  us
• 46:49
  through
• 46:49
  the
• 46:49
  links
• 46:49
  in
• 46:49
  the
• 46:49
  show
• 46:50
  notes
• 46:50
  or
• 46:50
  by
• 46:50
  emailing
• 46:51
  infowarenesstoaction.com.