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The Jeremy Grantham Aftershow · Merryn Talks Money

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Maren Talks Money the After Show.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: This is where we comment on the guest interviews in
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: our regular podcast, and when we say comment, we do
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: mean comment, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Let's see where this one goes. I'm Maren Sunsetweb.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: This week, John Steppeck, Senior report at Bloomberg and author
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: of the Daily Money Distilled newsletter, which if you haven't
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: signed up to do so immediately, joins me to discuss
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: my conversation with GMO co founder Jeremy Grandsam.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Now, John, we have.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Had a lot of feedback from this. Everyone loved it.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Everyone loves it from Jeremy. He's very well known for
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: his big market calls. And we talked about a lot
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: of things in this pot of been through the whole market.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: We've been through you know, climate change, We've been through
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: artificial intelligence.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: We've been through evaluations.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: We've been through lots on the US market, a little
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: bit on other markets, etc.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: What did you think I mean?
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: I need to start by saying I am actually a
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: massive faning Jimmy Grant.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: She that's entirely true. There are some people on a
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: massive fan of Germany. Granted, I don't know why these
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: people would feel like that.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I've spent years reading these stuff and probably,
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: I would say I probably he's the person that sticks
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: more in my mind than pretty much any other.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: I just need to say something to listener. Is just
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: about you and Jeremy. I'm okay.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Confirmation bias, confirmation bias.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, I've never met him. It's not like more
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: pals or anything like that.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: But what do you think he thinks what you think?
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, well, yeah, mostly, which is also interesting. But no,
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: I mean I thought it was interesting. It's mostly not
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: anything particularly new, because obviously you know Ready's stuff, and
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: we've spoken to him a lot, and I do have
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: time for the people who think that he's overly berish,
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: because he's often he was absolutely right whenever he called
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: the turn in two thousand and nine, which he talked
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: about in the podcast. But equally, you know, I think
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: it's fair to say that gmo is as an asset
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: manager has been negative to an extent that would have
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: lost your money over the relative to what you could
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: have done. Basically, if the default position is stick all
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: your money in an S and P five hundred tracker,
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: then following kind of their advice about what long term
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: US returns were going to be, Like, you know, seven
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: years ago, when it was basically saying they were very
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: small and that the US was very expensive compared to
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: other markets, you wouldn't have done as well as you
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: could have if you'd just kept things very simple. And
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: I think that's a reasonable criticism. So at the same time,
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: I just think that he's an interesting guy to listen to.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: And if you want to hear the bear case articulated,
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: then someone like Jeremy for example, articulates it far better
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: die and see the eld Erubini. It's not access Rubini,
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: but it's just that you know it's not. It's like
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: Jeremies get very specific and clear either kind of mathematical
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: almost kind of reasons and kind of logical reasons. And also,
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, I tend to think there's probably just largely
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: just early rather than wrong. Otherwise we know and market
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: has been too early is not the.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Same as being wrong, really, and I suppose.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: So you're very unbiased, you're biased.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: And of course he uses things like this shill appee,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: which we talked about in the podcast as evaluation method
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: and we know that that works over the very very
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: long term. But as a short term signal, it's pretty useless.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Doesn't really tell us much about where markets are going
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: to go, and ass we're looking at it over the
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: really the super long term.
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: The model that Ben Ncurr and I did twenty years ago,
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: it's got a very high correlation explaining pe. It doesn't
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: predict it. It just says, how do we get here?
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: It turns out the market is really a coincident indicator
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: of comfort. What does it take to make a portfolio
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: manager comfortable in an institution? And the answer is, as
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: you suggest, steady inflation around two percent. It hates inflationary
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: spikes and very high profit margins. And the profit margins
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: have been drifting down and more than people realize, and
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: inflation has been bouncing around, but it's part of the
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: scenery now. And the model says a shillopee should be
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: about sixteen point eight, which is decently above average and
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: doesn't sound ridiculously low. And that's because the profit margins.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Are still decent.
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: But what is it Well, a few weeks ago it
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: was twenty nine thirty, so it was not responding in
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  Speaker 4: the normal way.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I like it. By the way, I love
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: the Shillopee.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: I always look at the Shillopee for all markets, but
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: it doesn't do us much good.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm I think, and you should because it's it's
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: better than most, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's perfect.
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  Speaker 3: But yeah, But one thing I was going to say
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: is that it's interesting if you look at what he
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: says about VC Adventured Capital, he's effectively saying that he
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: still believes in US exceptionalism. So it's really interesting that
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: on the one hand, he's actually basically saying the US
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: is a better economy and a better entrepreneurial environment than
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: anywhere else in the world, which is hard to disagree with.
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  Speaker 3: But also he's simultaneously sort of saying that that's not
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: enough to justify the massive premium that the US trades at.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: And while I think I kind of agree with that,
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: on the other hand, there is a part of me
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: that's sort of starting to think, actually, maybe the US
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: is just better and it is just the place that's
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: the most friendly home to money, and money does go
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: where it's best treated, and perhaps the real story of
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: the last fifteen years I'm not sure I agree with
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  Speaker 3: it is that actually America is the only place where
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: I kind of risk capital is treated. The treatment of
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: risk capital has been either the same or only a
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: bit worse than it has been deteriorating in the rest
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: of the world. I mean they have been you look
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: at the UK investment environment, you know, in the last
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: fifteen years, and I think it's fair to say that
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: in terms of regulation and in terms of political approval
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: has deteriorated. You know, people are anti capitalism in a
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: way that they went kind of fifteen twenty years ago.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: So you know, I think that's an interesting almost contradiction there,
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: and it certainly got me thinking.
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  Speaker 2: It is interesting because if you believe in American exceptionalism,
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: and we did talk about bench capitalism quite a lot
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: of we talked about the last time I entreated him
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: as well, and he said that an awful lot of
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: his foundations money in particular, is in venture capital one
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: way or another for these very reasons, because of the
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: US treats entrepreneurs in a completely different way to the
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: rest of US.
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  Speaker 4: But in the long run, it is amazing the quality
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: of the people the American VC industry attracts. It's getting
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: the best and the brightest who used to go into
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: consulting or Goldman SAG and now they go into VC
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: and startups and they come from all over the world.
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  Speaker 4: At least a quarter of the bosses of all the
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: VC companies we talked to were not born in America.
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  Speaker 4: And what an achievement for the US. We have the
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: great research universities fifteen of the twenty and most of
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: the rest are in the UK, but the fifteen great
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  Speaker 4: research universities are the bedrock for so many of these
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: VC And you add that to a societal attitude to
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: taking risk in the US is simply much better than Europe.
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  Speaker 2: But you know, a lot of money must have been
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: lost there. But he still was extremely keen in this
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: podcast to discuss that. And you might think, as you
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: say that, if you believed that, then you'd also believe that,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: you know, the small number of stocks, the seven right
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  Speaker 2: stocks that have been leading with the US market higher
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: and higher, deserve the valuation.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, to be fair, he did basically
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: say that if you although you shouldn't invest in the
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: US because it's too expensive, if you do have to
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: invest in the US. As far as I could see,
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: he was saying the magnificent seven are the ones to
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: invest in, because he was.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: He was saying he was in quality.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: And if you look at the GMA work, it normally says,
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: you know that in an environment like this, you should
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: buy stuff that is high quality and cheap, although god
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: knows what that is these days.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, a cheap relative to war. I mean, I think
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: the other interesting thing was, and this is anodd thing
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: I've always found interesting about Grant them because one of
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: the big things that all they talk about the kind
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: of green energy stuff and one thing, and obviously he's
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: very committed to climate change and you know, funds a
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: lot of research into and things like that. And one
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  Speaker 3: thing I remember is that one of the very few
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: big calls that he made that was wrong and where
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: he very clearly went against his own understanding the bubbles
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: was in twenty eleven, the peak of the commodities bubble,
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: he wrote a big report that basically said, you know,
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: commodities are massively overpriced compared to their history, and went
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: through all of these reasons as to why they were expensive,
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: but then sort of shot circuited the logical conclusion, which
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: was to say it was in a bubble. And he said,
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: but this is going to carry on because basically we're
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: running out and China's going to kind of chew up
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: all of the you know, the resources. And of course
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: that turned out to be incorrect. And that's one thing
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: I found interest because I felt that his own cognitive
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: biases kind of misled him to short circuit his process.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: And that's why I guess I take some of the
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: stuff he says on that front way a big pinch
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: of salt, because I think that he is kind of
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: clearly has that that's his thing, that's that's where it's
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: cognitive biased kicks in.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: A lot of it.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: Said, that was interesting to hear him acknowledge that if
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: we want to get to that zero, then we're going
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: to have to use a lot more fossil fuels.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: In the meantime, it's interesting, as mat you talk about this,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: that she's demand for resources up front.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: I think it's something that that people.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Are only just beginning to grasp that in order to
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: get to the clean side, we have to do a
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: lot of really really grubby stuff first.
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: Really really grubby stuff, and even in the long run,
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: you need a lot of metals which are grubby in
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: order to get to a green world. Sorry, guys, sorry,
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: you purist, There is no way around that one.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no clean root to clean no.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: And that's something you don't often hear the more shall
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: we see ideological can only you know green people saying
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: it's like.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, most of them think lysium just come down of it,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: right or they certainly exactly, they do exactly. And so
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: a lot of the things that we talked about around
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: climate change, around energy transition, et cetera, had them being
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: extremely straightforward and pragmatic, just like what the interview we
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: did with a Conway while back saying you know, we
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: have to get really really grubby before we can get
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: anywhere near clean and accepting the amount of digging and
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: mining that needs to be done as a result.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: And you're right, we don't.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: We don't hear that often. So that was that was interesting,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: although we didn't think, I want to talk about how
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: one might investor as a result of that. And I
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: know that GMO is still extremely keen on investing, in
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: particular in clean energy stocks, even though they've had a
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: pretty horrible time, a really really horrible time, but I
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: suspect that they think that's probably a sector that people
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: should still be invested in.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I suppose one of those things, isn't
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: it we are. It's like any new technology, you can't
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: dedict which one's going to be the market we at
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: the end of the tam it's ruled out. It is
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: the reason everyone bought in Vedia for the AI scene,
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: which that also came up then too.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Did we covered everything everything?
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Did you say that it was a really good interview.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: One thing that kind of was somewhat glaring by its
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: near absence was talk about the bond market.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: I think we took it as given.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: I think it was an assumption for in Jermy and
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: I that both of the sovereign bond market bubble around
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: the world as over, that it's burst, and that bonds
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: are still high, and that that is that is why
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: it's entirely possibly did so at one point during the podcast,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: not a forecast, but a comment entirely possible mathematically that
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: the US market could go down another fifty percent. That
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: was that was a reference to bond Authentic Talks. As
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: you remember, we talked about the Russell two thousand.
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: The most vulnerable area, in my opinion, is the Russell
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: two thousand is a good measure of where the vulnerabilities
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: will be. The Russell two thousand often has no collective
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: earnings at all. It has a very high density of zombies,
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: companies that really can only pay their interest payments by
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: issuing more debt. It has never been higher than it
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: is today, and they have a very high ratio something
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: like forty percent, don't have positive earnings, and they have
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: record debt. They have never had this kind of debt.
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: So they're vulnerable on the debt front, vulnerable on the
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: financial front, and vulnerable on a broad economic front. And
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: this is the interesting thing. The Russell two thousand is
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: not up in real terms for the last year. It's
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: not up over two years, and really surprising, it's not
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: up over five years. It's actually down quite a bit
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: over five years.
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: So it is showing its vulnerability that is, et cetera,
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: because two thousands already down an awful lot, and so
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: some of the other things that we talked about, But
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: so I think that was that was really where an
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: acceptance from both of us that we agreed on the
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: bond market bubble being over was there.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: And then we talked we talked about other markets. So
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: we talked about Japan a little bit. Well, the other
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: cheap markets. We talked about Japan a little, and we
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: talked about the UK a little, and these were both
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: markets that he was interested in. Although of course there's
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: the point that you know, the US market would go
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: down fifty percent. I repeat, that was not a forecast.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: If it's just a mathematical comment. If we did, then
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: everything else would go down a lot as well.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that is the tricky thing at presumably they just
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: wouldn't go down as much.
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: Well, you know what happens in Japan, right, you know,
• 14:52
  Speaker 6: you always saying things are fine and it's cheap, and
• 14:55
  Speaker 6: it's quality, and it reached to escape, escape the lots
• 14:58
  Speaker 6: to do.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: There's a virtual was so there, et cetera, et cetera,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: and then you know something happened in the Japanese market
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: goes down more than other markets. So you can never
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: take the stuff as a given.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: If hearts again this team, I'm just I'm swelling north
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: jump of these stocks.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Listen. We did get I got some pushback from a
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: because we asked Jem at the end about gold and bitcoin,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: and I think we would all have predicted that he
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: would say gold localse.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: She did say gold was the least bad of the three,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: and I see.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: I think John, at some point quite soon we should
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: do a whole podcast on gold and why to invest
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: in gold and when gold was good and money. It
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: isn't bad because we mentioned it at the end, but
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: we've never done a full one on it.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Anyway.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: I got an email from one of our listeners saying that,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: of course you and I and Jeremy don't understand gold
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: because we live in a stable country and we're not criminals.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: But if we lived in an unstable country and we
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: were a drug dealer or a money launderer or something
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: like that, then we would absolutely understand why bitcoin is
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the current, say of the future.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: Okay, so he says, bitcoins. So because you said, you
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: said that we don't understand gold. No, no, no, we
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: do understand.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: God, you don't understand I've said before.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Look, bitcoin is a good way to move money across
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: borders where you can't sell gold coins into your you know,
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: coat pockets or whatever. I actually agree with that. I
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: think that that is the use case that is very
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: different to becoming you know, like this global currency system.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: This is what I don't. They remind me a lot
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: the crypto guys of the hardcore kind of gold bugs
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: ahead of two thousand and eight, where the idea wasn't
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: just that gold was useful for X or y or
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: is the portfolio insurance. It was the idea that gold
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: was going to regain its one true place as the
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: kind of natural money of the world. It was going
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: to take over the financial sense.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Still haven't could still happen.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: Believe I add an awful lot of sympathy with that
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: of you, And it's one reason why I sort of
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: sympathized with the bitcoiners, because I recognize the idealism, but
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: it's it is idealism and it is deluded. It's not
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: Cody Harton, So yeah, I agree with him. He's right,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: Beckcoin is a good way. It moves money across borders
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: when you don't when you unequet the money out of
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: the country because you're you know, haven't you flee the
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: country or because you're drug I.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Do on the matter of that, on the matter of
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: crime and go global collapse and that sort of thing.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I do want to mention that Jeremy and I did
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: talk quite a bit off the end of the podcast
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: after we turned the recording off rather irritatingly. We talked
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: rather a lot about the things that really concerned him.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: He's very worried about general toxic soxicity across the world.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: He's much more worried about climate change, and I think
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: if it came across in that conversation, and he's very,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: very worried about inequality. So when when he looks at
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: money and markets these days, he tends to see things
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: through a different lens than perhaps he did during the
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: main part of his career. So that was quite an
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: interesting conversation as well.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: That's I mean, that's interesting my own view and inequality.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: I'm sure kind of match is used, which is that
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: you know, the capitalist, free market system of allocating resources
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: gives you the best outcome. That doesn't mean that it's perfect,
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: but it's a bit like democracy from that point of view.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: You know, it's the worst system except all of the
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: rest of them. So anyone who kind of comes at this,
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: particularly when they've got the soft cushion of you know.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Massive wealth.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: There are many hundreds of millions, yeah, massive, Well, then
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: I think the f to kind of just maybe count
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: their blessings rather than deciding that what for them. But
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: it's not going to work for everyone else.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Quite now, there is one piece by GMO that people
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: should go away and reread. They have access to it,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: if not all time, put it up, so I might
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: ask GM if I can pop it up somewhere. It
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: is something that generally wrote back in March two thousand
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: and nine. And I know there's a lot of people
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: out there who say, Jeremy, you know, always wrong, But
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: in March two thousand and nine Jeremy Grant them wrote
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: a piece encouraging everybody to have a battle plan for
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: reinvestment and to get on with it. And now we're
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: not anywhere near that point in markets at the moment,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: but it's quite a good little piece explaining how brave
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: you have to be and they have to overcome your
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: terror when markets are genuinely cheap, and you need to
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: be ready to turn when all looks black, but just
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: to subtle shade less black than the day before. Now,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know when that day will come in markets,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: but you know there's bound to be a day like
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: it ahead, So we might try to get that piece
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: up somewhere for listeners to have a look at.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: Oh, definitely, that's a great piece. I'm pretty sure it
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: was will very short.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: And that when it comes to when it comes to
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: research like this very short, it's very good. Thanks for
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: listening to this week's Marin Talks Money the after Show.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: This episode was hosted by me Maren Somerset Web alongside
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: John Staffek. It was produced by Someersiety additional editing by
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Blake Naples