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Learning From Failure · Humanity Working

0:06
SPEAKER_01: The minute that I made that decision to leave, it was kind of putting that baggage on the shelf.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think for me, I'm real adamant about speaking about my pain because I think that many people don't, and to give permission to say it's okay to do that could help somebody.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: And I hope it did.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: In today's episode, Paul chats with Dr.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: James Kelly.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: He's a former CEO and co-founder of QCH, a company that provides soft skills and intelligence to leaders inside organizations.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: He's also the author of a very interesting book about leadership called The Crucibles Gift.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: This podcast was recorded shortly after Dr.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: Kelly took the decision to step away from his company, a decision that might come at great personal financial cost to him.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: In this episode, he talks openly about failure, why crisis can lead to significant personal growth, and what his research shows about the key attributes of authentic leadership.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: You'll find a link to Dr.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Kelly's book in the show notes.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: This podcast is brought to you by Billion Minds.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds helps companies be ready for the future of work by developing resilient, adaptable employees.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: You can learn more about them on LinkedIn or by visiting billionminds.com.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: If you like this episode, please like us and review us on your podcast app.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get on with the episode.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: Okay, today I'm delighted to be joined by James Kelly PhD.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: He is the ex-co-founder and CEO of QChange.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: We'll get into that in a little bit.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: And is the international author of The Crucibles Gift, Five Lessons from Authentic Leaders Who Thrive in Adversity.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: He's a TEDx speaker, and he spent the last 15 years working in consulting, marketing, and higher education with a cross section of consumer psychology, leadership, and startups.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: So James describes himself as a recovering academic.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: I know we'll get into that too.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: And he's now, I read here in my introduction, lost on what comes next, but is always open to what's possible through conversation.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: He's a highly sought-after speaker on leadership and the startup journey, appearing in over 60 top podcasts, 61 now, James, on leadership, personal development, and startups.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: James is in Bend, Oregon, just down the road from where I used to live in Seattle, Washington, with his wife and four kids.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: And the last thing I'll read from our formal intro here, James, is that you are essentially resigned to being the least important individual in your family only because they don't have a pet.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: That is correct.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: That is correct.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the pod, James.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Paul.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be here.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: I just like to, I don't know, I've listened to your couple of your podcasts.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: I like the vibe, so I'm excited just to contribute and hopefully add some value.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: Cool.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: Now, I've got to be honest, James.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: So for me, this was one of the most challenging episodes that I've ever had to prepare for.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: And you probably think, why would that be?
3:01
SPEAKER_02: You said you just want to come here and have a chat.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: You just couldn't deal with how handsome I am.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: Is that the idea?
3:07
SPEAKER_02: That's that's the main issue.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: But uh but aside from that, um, I think it's because I was like stuck on on three things, right?
3:15
SPEAKER_02: So, first off, there's your book.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: Um and so I've read your book, it's really good.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: Um it's called The Crucibles Gift Five Lessons from Authentic Leaders Who Thrive in Diversity.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: And we'll get into some of the themes that are raised in that today.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, we could probably spend three hours talking about that.
3:32
SPEAKER_02: Then, secondly, there's all the stuff that we have in common that's core to the things that we normally discuss on this podcast.
3:39
SPEAKER_02: So we're both heavily involved in soft skills development.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: We've both had roles leading startups, um, and those startups use experiential learning to help people develop those skills.
3:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, we even went through the same startup accelerator, George DeRock, as a work tech accelerator.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: Weirdly, though, we did all of that and never met, right?
3:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, but anyway, there's all of that, and that's another three hours.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: And then there's the third thing, which is the one-word answer you gave me when I asked you what you wanted to talk about.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if you remember what that one-word answer was, dude.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: No.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: The one word answer you gave me was failure.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Ah yes, well, probably top of mind.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: So I I mean, I can't let that slide, right?
4:24
SPEAKER_02: So that's why so that's one out.
4:26
SPEAKER_02: So, how many people are prepared to have a real conversation about failure?
4:30
SPEAKER_02: So, not many.
4:31
SPEAKER_02: So, let's let's let's get into that.
4:33
SPEAKER_02: Let's start with the reasons why you're thinking deeply about failure right now.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh, tell me what's been going on in your life recently.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think it's interesting.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, probably the the word failure is probably a loaded term.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, I I see myself, and often how we see ourselves probably isn't always accurate, but I see myself as a growth mindset individual.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, in late July, I left the startup that I founded, um, that I was the original investor in.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I left that uh behind.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: And I let someone else take over.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I can list a thousand reasons why I think there were challenges that were innate to the team, the product, the finances.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, but at the end of the day, you know, the buck stops with me.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: And so I did not, under the circumstances, probably make the right choice at different points.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: And as you know, as a start, there's different choices you have to make, and some are more critical than others, and some are more forgiving than others.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, um, I made a horrible choice.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, horrible is the wrong term, sorry.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: I made a I made a choice based out of insecurities.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and when you make choices from that framing, you're not typically going to make the best choice.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, but more importantly, why I left, I think at the end of the day, uh, and I wrote this on LinkedIn, I think this is really important.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: And as a founder, you may have felt this, Paul.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: You you seem like a more stable individual than myself.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: Um for about six, seven months, I would drive down the road and say, it would just be easier if I drove off the road.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: It would just be easier if I creeped into a tree.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: It would just be easier if all of these reasons, and it was a really dark, I mean, dark place to go.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, especially when you think about I have a loving wife and loving kids, and like, and I would never do it, but I say that thinking the thoughts were in my head, knowing that other founders at different stages probably think like, I'd rather just walk away.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'd rather just file bankruptcy and start again, da-da-da-da-da, whatever it is.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, I just was in a really dark place.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: And so um, having been there for six to 12 months, knowing the situation wasn't gonna change uh in my environment unless I changed, uh, I had to do something.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so again, late July, um, under a series of serendipitous moments, I just walked away.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: And uh I haven't really looked back.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: I think I spent about so I wrote another article about like the five stages of grieving from a startup, and like you know, and I can't remember all the things I wrote at this point, but it was like anger, denial, it was denial, anger, and I went through all of them pretty pretty rapidly.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: One, I was in a anger and denial for a really long time, and then depression for a really long time.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: So, anyhow, so I mean, short, short answer to that, really long answer is what I gave you.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: But um, as I I left my startup that I found it, and I I still my family still has$350,000 in it.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: So, like I I don't think I'm gonna get that back.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, I doubt it.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: So let's just delve a little bit deeper into that.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, into from what you know now, looking back because what are we a couple what three months, four?
7:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I probably knew a lot of these answers like a year ago.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Um but I left in late July, so two months, two and a half months.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: So are you well let's just check in right now.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, how are you right now?
8:07
SPEAKER_02: Are you feeling are you are are you still driving down?
8:10
SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, you know, you know why I wrote that, Paul?
8:14
SPEAKER_01: Because I wanted to say the quiet thing loudly.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's really important.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: So um, but you know, the the minute that I made that decision to leave, it was kind of putting that baggage on the shelf.
8:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think for me, I'm real adamant about speaking about my pain because I think that many people don't, and to give permission to say it's okay to do that could help somebody.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: And I hope it did.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: And I got some people text me and and um send me inboxes and saying thank you, and and not that it was brave, I don't per se think that, but I think it's is that I made it okay, I think, more importantly.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think what's really interesting about it, James, is that um when you're a founder, right?
9:02
SPEAKER_02: In theory, in theory, you have a lot of the things that are associated with motivation that a lot of people associate with happiness, um, and you have those right off the bat, right?
9:15
SPEAKER_02: So I know in your book you talk quite a bit about um uh Dan Pink and Drive and things like that.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: And of course he breaks it down into autonomy, mastery, and purpose.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: And then obviously there's the related, um, I don't need to tell you this, but you can tell our audience, there's the there's the related concepts of autonomy, mastery, and relatedness, right?
9:33
SPEAKER_02: But it's but uh what's really interesting about that is if you just use Pink's framing, so autonomy, mastery, and purpose, then almost every startup founder has a good degree of autonomy.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: Mastery debatable, right?
9:49
SPEAKER_02: Especially first-time founders, yeah.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: We're kind of figuring out as we go along.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: But we like to think that we're pretty good at what we do, and then many startups have uh are built on a sense of purpose and a sense of being connected to something that is bigger than just yourself or whatever, right?
10:08
SPEAKER_02: So along those axes, you can't you kind of have those those things.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: And so what I think is really fascinating about this is that um whether you call it founder burnout or whether you call it uh or whether you call it founder depression or whatever it happens to be, we've seen in our work, because we work a little bit more with startups than than you guys did, I think.
10:30
SPEAKER_02: But we've seen in our work that this it's very, very real, it's very prevalent.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: Um now, given your background, what why do you why do you think that is?
10:40
SPEAKER_02: Because theoretically, you're a startup founder, you're living the dream, man.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, is it really?
10:46
SPEAKER_01: Um it seems to only be the dream at the end of it.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: Um just not the so you know, Daniel Pink's work comes from um Richard Ryan and Desi, so self-determination theory.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, and so that whole theory is really predicated, predicated on intrinsic motivation.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: How do you get that?
11:04
SPEAKER_01: So those components are there, and and I think from a founder, it's it's like you're being shot out of a you know, a gun, lack of a better terminology, but your canon was the word I was looking for.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, shot out of a canon, and you just go.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: And because you have this idea, you see some market validation, people are excited, and you know, you've been there.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: Like you go pit your business to someone and they say, that's really it.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: I can see why that's helpful.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: That's a drug.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: You're like, yes, yes, I need more of that, right?
11:31
SPEAKER_01: But what happens is that, and this is so true, and I know the work you do, you see this, when the internal dynamics start to fracture, no longer is that intrinsic motivation there for you because that that relationship focus starts to erode.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: And without that relationship, which is connected to the overall purpose, it's really challenging to stay motivated when you feel that those in the boat are rowing in a totally different direction.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: In fact, they may even be in a different boat altogether, as far as you know.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the work around team dynamics is so critical in a startup.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: And yes, there are fights and there's disagreements, and I would expect that in any startup.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: And if you didn't have it, that means there's not enough passion being flown around.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, but um what's always most important to me is can you get back to an eye-to-eye perspective?
12:23
SPEAKER_01: And at least for me, I struggled with that with the team we had.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I became more and more detached.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think when you become more detached, your quality and productivity go way down.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: Um and so, you know, and I'm I don't want to speak ill of my other co-founder because he's a good human being.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: We just have two different business minds.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: And that was fundamentally probably the biggest problem um between the two of us.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, that motivation, that intrinsic like mastery, which to your point, the hell I wasn't, I don't know.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: That's why I kept asking like advisors.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know, is this right?
13:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, I have no idea.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: Like it smells right, but I don't know.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, autonomy, yes, I made all my own hours, which is why I ended up working 80 hours a week.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, why the hell?
13:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, like so stupid, but like, yes, right.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: And then um, the relationship, that was the part that started to fracture first.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: And I think that for me, um, that impacts the purpose of why I'm doing what I'm doing intrinsically.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so when that happened for me, that would, that was my that was the roller coaster starting to break, if you will.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'll tell you what we've seen a little bit, James, which um across the various different startups that we've worked with, we've seen a lot of what uh of what you're talking about.
13:42
SPEAKER_02: And at least in part, um, that comes from the fact that, yes, you start with this like idea of some sort.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: Almost every startup starts with an idea of some sort.
13:52
SPEAKER_02: And then um, let's say uh lean startup school or or whatever whatever program you want to talk about talks to you uh talks ad nauseum and correctly, not to fall over in love with your ideas and to market test and validate and see what the um and see what people actually want and people actually need.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, that's fine, but what of course it ignores is the fact that part of what gets founders into this in the first place is because they kind of have fallen in love with their idea, right?
14:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and uh and that's what uh and that's what makes it exciting.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: And we've heard founders talk about almost like stages of grief when they have to let go of their original idea.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:37
SPEAKER_02: And also when you are finding out what the alternative is, it's a very inexact science.
14:43
SPEAKER_02: And you're floundering, right?
14:44
SPEAKER_02: And very quickly you can get into a position where where the different parties inside the organization are going, that's the way we need to go, and another party is going, yeah, that's the way we need to go.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: Then the relationship side of it starts to break down.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: And then at that point, you've you've got almost no hope.
15:00
SPEAKER_02: So I think that's when everyone starts to think that they're right.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, a method, like a philosophy I have is uh do right, not be right, right?
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And so if you can figure out how to manage that into the process of the relationship, you know, because like for me, I was in love with the idea, but the product can change.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: I didn't care about that.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: So, like you, I think in the future, in five years, soft skills will be the currency traded in the job market, period.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: I think generative AI is shifting a ton of the hard skills.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: Majority of them will be can you ask the right questions?
15:34
SPEAKER_01: Can you get the bot to do what you need to do?
15:36
SPEAKER_01: That that is a skill set that can be learned.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: But are you a good human being?
15:41
SPEAKER_01: Can you communicate?
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Are you compassionate?
15:43
SPEAKER_01: Do you have integrity?
15:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, are you strategic thinker?
15:45
SPEAKER_01: Like those are things that quantifiably have been challenged and difficult to measure over time.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, I was in love with that idea of getting there, that how I was less concerned about.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, but but that was where I was at.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: So sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, Paul.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: No, no, that's perfect.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: And I hope you're still in love with that idea.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: I I certainly am too.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh and yeah, I mean, I think that that whatever specific way we get there, whatever um organizations are gonna be needed to be formed to help people get there, it's still the fact that to your point, you know, soft skills are gonna be the currency.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: And um, and also talking about failure, many, many preceding attempts to measurably improve soft skills inside organizations have failed.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: So a new and so a new approach is definitely is definitively needed for that.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100% agree.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: All right.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: So um one of the things that I think is interesting as I'm thinking about your journey and what you've gone through recently, is it kind of relates to some of the themes that are in your book.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: Um what's been great is that you that you're sort of you're living that out loud.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: Great, great for us as an external observer.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm not probably not so good for you.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: Um but but um you talk about in the book the concept of of a crucible, and you have different kinds of cruci uh of crucibles.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: So can you briefly explain to me what the what you mean by the crucible and the different kinds that are there, and then we'll go into that in a bit?
17:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, you're gonna put me on the spot.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, so the book was written in 2018.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's been a minute since I read the book, to be honest with you.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: And so what I can tell you is that there are three crucibles.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: There's like the the baseline one.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: I was just reading this like last week, by the way, for something else, and I'm totally forgetting.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: I have an awful memory for like language.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: So I have a more thought about that.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: Just generally describe it.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay, good.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because you're gonna put me on the spot, and then I'm gonna you know, wet my pants and look failure, and this is another one to add to my list.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: And it's already pretty big at this point.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: So, well, the podcast is already about failure, Jennifer.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, then I'm gonna make it true to life in the moment, and then we'll really like act it out in a better sense.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, uh, there are really three levels of what I call a crucible, and these are any moments that kind of form you, right?
18:04
SPEAKER_01: And so the first level is kind of these tiny little ones where like you lost your car keys and you had to go to you know the auto dealership and get a new, a new car key set, right?
18:15
SPEAKER_01: It's annoying, it's painful.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna give you a preference at the end of this.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: And the middle one is like I've moved countries, right?
18:22
SPEAKER_01: That can be traumatic for people.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: That's a huge crucible.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: You don't know a new culture, you have to, and then you have like the major ones death, marriage, divorce, right?
18:32
SPEAKER_01: Each one of these, though, and I want to give a caveat, it dependent on the individual, right?
18:39
SPEAKER_01: So for me, I've moved you're you don't sound American.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: That's my guess.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad I was somewhat accurate on that.
18:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh, where are you from originally, by the way?
18:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh from Oxford, England.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: But what you're hearing is a blend of uh what's let's say 30 years of English and 22 or 23 years of American, and it kind of blends into it.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: It just smashes it together.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: So um, so having lived in Japan, in Australia, in the Middle East, um, and then many cities in the US, me for me, moving is not that big of a deal.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: So that would never be for me a major crucible moment.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: It would be more of an exciting moment.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: Now, for others, you know, the first move to a new country, and if you don't ever move again, could be a major milestone in your life.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: So I always want to put the caveat that the crucible is really dependent on the person's prior experience to that moment.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure you've met people who who have lost their car keys and who lose their SHIT.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: And like, you're like, relax.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: They're car keys, not a kidney.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: Let's let's take it, let's like reposition this problem, you know?
19:39
SPEAKER_01: So um, and so I think that that's interesting about the crucible is never about the moment, it's about what happens afterwards.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Like that to me is the most important thing.
19:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:48
SPEAKER_02: So I mean, I what I think is really interesting about that though is that that the argument that you make in the book, which I think is a really fascinating one, is that um, to your point, right?
19:59
SPEAKER_02: We all have them, right?
20:00
SPEAKER_02: We all we we not only do we all have minor ones, I think pretty much all of us have major ones at certain points in our life.
20:07
SPEAKER_02: You just live long enough that these major events will happen, right?
20:11
SPEAKER_02: Nobody lives forever, right?
20:12
SPEAKER_02: Relationships break down, you know, people get fired from jobs, you know, all of these, all of these things um do happen in in our life.
20:19
SPEAKER_02: And interestingly, when we work with uh with organizations, employees inside organizations, we often talk about like looking forward and looking backward and talk about the fact that actually statistically more bad stuff is likely to happen to you in the next 10 years than has happened to you in the in the in the last 10 years.
20:36
SPEAKER_02: So you might as well kind of get used to that.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: And because it's very interesting because people often you've seen these experiments, I'm sure, where people are asked to imagine their life 10 years hence, and they basically give a they just describe what they're doing today.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then they're asked to look at their lives looking back 10 years, and like they'll, you know, basically the whole world has changed of the previous 10 years.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: So it's just that we're kind of wired to uh wired to think that way.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: But I think what's uh what's really interesting here is that as you mentioned, you have all of these, we have these crucible moments in them.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: But it appears as though, and your work um backs this up, is that um some people are quite aware of these moments when they happen.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't say they necessarily use them as an opportunity consciously, correct, but it results in growth, it results in development.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: And then there's these this other collection of people that you mentioned briefly, whereby they're almost you ask them about this and they're almost completely unaware.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: And uh and those people lack a significant amount of self awareness, and that appears to translate into challenges in how effective they are.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, and that kind of yeah, yeah, and that tethers back to the larger, I think, argument I'm making around growth and fixed mindset at the end of the day.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: Are you a learning focus or are you fixed at what's what's happening?
22:00
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, those that had had their their adversity or their crucible, I always thought was really interesting is that they would have it, and it wouldn't be an immediate switch, but it'd be an evolution in their thinking.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: And the reason why it was an evolution is they wanted to unpack what happened, why it happened, what responsibility they had in the mix.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: And that, you know, as is another side note, is a key critical piece is personal responsibility of what role you played in that adversity moment and what role you had no control over.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: And that's really emotional intelligence, probably turned up, you know, on the terms of the dial.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: And so I found those individuals really fascinating, but I actually found the other ones more fascinating of like, are you the horse on the track that just has the blinders on and you don't look anywhere else?
22:43
SPEAKER_01: And like, um, you know, I'm I'm in the in the uh, I guess where where I sit is that the lack of self-awareness is sometimes masked as either insecurity or arrogance, right?
22:59
SPEAKER_01: And it can be either side of that, but the arrogance of it can't be me is is a false flag in a lot of ways.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: Because there, anytime there's a relationship, it's a part of you and a part of me in some capacity.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: And again, there are exceptions to every rule, don't get me wrong.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm I always live in the gray area.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: I don't think everything's black and white.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: There's very few things that are black and white in this world.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: But I think in any relationship, there's a there's a responsibility that you have to take in that that allows you to understand more deeply the role of that adversity moment.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: So, excuse me, I'll take like, yeah, in the book, I share a story about when I moved to Australia to get my PhD.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: And um, it's a really, for me, impactful story.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: And for the for the audience who doesn't know much about me, um, I found out late in life I had dyslexia, um, which would explain why I was only getting two four and two fives in in uh high school and college.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: And I went off to get my MBA and I was like, oh, I'm not that dumb.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: I am pretty smart.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: And it was like one of these light bulbs.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: And then I was at um Portland State University, I was thinking about going into the Peace Corps, and these PhD students came over and they were from Africa, and we were talking about this is when I was had no wife and kids.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: I'd be The Economist front to back.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, they're not any smarter than I am.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: And so then that was kind of this unraveling of like maybe I could get my PhD.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so what I found is that um that journey in itself, when I got to Australia and I landed there, um, which is a whole other story, I was starting, I hit panic mode.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: I hit the I do not belong in this.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: This is what the hell am I doing?
24:42
SPEAKER_01: I am 30 years old.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: I I still had hair.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, I was like, it was like, what's happening?
24:50
SPEAKER_01: And I was I was panicking, I was short of breath, I was shaking.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, I I couldn't be in a more negative state.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: And I went for a run and I just remember cresting this hill, and at the top of this hill in Perth, it overlooks the Indian Ocean.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: And I remember when I got to the crest and the wind was blowing, and I got the the really a fresh breath and a smell of the ocean, that ocean smell, which is so powerful.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I could see this crystal blue water, and I was like, okay.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: And it was just like this this moment in my mind of going from, I chose to be here.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: I can choose how I utilize this time, I can demonstrate to myself and others that I am intellectually capable and more importantly, grit ready to work my way through this process.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and that's an example of me in that situation moving from it's happening to me to it's happening for me, uh which is a really critical.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: And that was the thing that a lot of people with adversity, with a growth mindset, they shifted from two to four.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: And this, you know, and that's what I'm sure you've seen this with yourself and things that you've done where you've been like, woe's me, wait for me, go.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: And uh that's huge mentally in your mind because you're firing up a different part of your brain when you do that.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: A couple of uh thoughts on that, by the way.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: Great story.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: Also uh great advertisement for Western Australia.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: You should you should sponsor the Western Australia tourist board.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: But but I think what is I think what is really interesting um is that that happened early in your life.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: And I think we see this a I think we see this a lot.
26:35
SPEAKER_02: So, for example, you see it in people who join startups when they're in their early 20s and they are um and the world is kind of crazy and they're thrown into this environment, having to flex a whole bunch of skills they don't have, they don't feel like they have.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, going from, you know, almost I I'm so unqualified to do this to I can change the world.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: Um all of that happens, I think, more easily when our brains are more malleable, more flexible.
27:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what are your thoughts in how you can go about maintaining that approach?
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, as you age, you get a little bit more concrete, if you will, uh in your beliefs and your actions.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: That's a great question, Paul.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's just a matter of curiosity.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: I think it's very simple.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Like it's just be curious, and it's challenging, you know.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: Even you know, I'm I'm 49.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: You like look like you're 39, 40, somewhere in there.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so like I'll take that.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: This is why you bring people like me on.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: I make you feel better about yourself when you're done.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
27:45
SPEAKER_02: I've been I've been 39 for 13 years.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: I'll take that.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, as you get older, you start to lack the curiosity of why.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: And I and I fall into this camp, you know, for sure.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think it allows you, if you have curiosity.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when I and I'm sure my co-founder will never watch this.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: So as we were unwinding and we were having a major um disagreement and how we could work together, I just kind of said if we could start from the position of curiosity, that would probably solve 90% of our problems.
28:20
unknown: Yeah.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: But we start from a position of knowing.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: And when you do that, then you don't allow your brain mentally to openly acquire new information that might challenge your current knowledge.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, for me, politically, it'd be hard to move me one way or the other at this point in my life.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty experientially sound of what I think, but I'm still open to other opportunities to learn from different perspectives.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, because I the learning and growth mindset that one has as they get older means they can deal with just shit that happens, right?
28:56
SPEAKER_01: Like we're gonna have to deal with, I'm gonna have to deal with my mom passing away at some point, right?
29:01
SPEAKER_01: That's gonna suck.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: But because of what I've been through, and for me to draw on that experience and know that that, and I love quoting Tom Hanks, by the way, this too shall pass.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, which is kind of one of his big phrases he's learned in his life, and I love that is that this moment will pass if you allow yourself to be in that moment, learn from that moment, and move on from that moment.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think the curiosity piece is so critical.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, one of the things that we work with people on is what we refer to as self-curiosity, which we think of as a little bit it's it's similar to self-awareness, but we think it kind of builds on it.
29:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, developing the skill of not just um intrinsically being aware of what is happening with you, to you, around you, et cetera, but actually being curious about it, understanding how you're responding to that, finding almost like finding yourself interesting.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: And that can be a very thing for people uh for people.
30:03
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it feels indulgent, for example, to uh to do that, right?
30:06
SPEAKER_02: That you're really into yourself and you shouldn't be, and that there are much more interesting things in the round.
30:11
SPEAKER_02: But actually, that if you can do that, if you can be curious about yourself, then typically you become curious in general.
30:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the really interesting things that we've encountered with this is that even people that you might expect to have uh what you would consider to be a pretty growth mindset, as in they're constantly doing, I don't know, Coursera classes or something along those lines, there's a limit to it.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: And what that where that limit comes from is that they think of academic learning, for example, as being the only form of learning that they can do.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Versus literally every interaction that you have with anything at any time, whether it's an Uber driver or you know, the the guy that comes to, I'm gonna sound like I'm 1800s now, the kind of comes to clean the chip.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: That gives that drops the milk off and turns your butter.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: But but whoever they whoever those people are, um, whatever those interactions are, they're all opportunities to to learn.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: And um and if we can maintain that muscle, then often almost everything else follows.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: So but according to to to Dwek and I and I can see this personally for myself, like we're all on a continuum depending on the category, subject, topic, time, and moment, right?
31:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, and so to your point, the more we can be in that place of curiosity, the more open you are.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: But I think there will always be things about you and about me that are fixed.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I think that the challenge as you get older that individuals have is to not let that calcification happen in greater and greater chunks.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's the challenge.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: And that's why, you know, what in terms of what you guys do at Billion Minds, like the experiment experiential learning is so critical, right?
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Because that's forcing for me.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: I think experiences matter more than anything else.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think if you can have an experience and then learn from that experience, that experience will stick uh much more internally in your noggin than if you're just reading a book, right?
32:14
SPEAKER_01: And as you know, we talked about earlier, that's why every development program has basically failed to some capacity.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm a huge believer in experiences, and that's part of that growth.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: I think I think folks that are listening to this are gonna be kind of struck, James, by your by your your self-awareness in this discussion.
32:35
SPEAKER_02: Um and that's obviously one of the dimensions that you talk about with regard with regard to leadership um all up.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: I've got a couple of questions for you around this.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, the focus of your book um was on leadership.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: Should mention, um, as we haven't mentioned it yet, that the the content in the book, and one of the things I think that makes the book so interesting is derive from hundreds of podcasts like this.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: Um you called it, uh I think it was Executives After Hours.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: Executive After Hours was the podcast, yeah.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: And um and that uh where can people get these?
33:13
SPEAKER_01: It's still available on um uh Spotify.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, so those, so it it kind of comes from those, uh, from those interviews.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: And then out of that collection of interviews, you kind of come up with this, with this unifying model of uh of leadership that involves self-awareness, but obviously also involves um some other components as well.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: Um before we get into the specifics of what those are, and don't worry if you forget those.
33:45
SPEAKER_02: No, I got those.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: I got the hose.
33:47
SPEAKER_03: I'll remind you.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh but the uh but before we get into the specifics of those, I'm actually curious about almost like how you would define a leader in the first in the first place.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: Because I was I was struck by that as I was reading it.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: You know what's interesting is like as you were describing that, it's a it's a leadership book.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: I think it's just really about a book of human beings.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, and it and it's I I think at the time I wrote it, I wanted to position it in that category, but you know, hindsight's always 2020, and it really just feels like this is just a framework for life just to be a better version of you, you know.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, and whatever that means, you know, I always define, you know, and the book talks about authentic, authentic leadership.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: And I kind of like, you know, I'm always for me, it's important that authentic leadership is really around every day, every week, every month, every year, trying to find a way to improve yourself in any way, whether it's a bigger smile, uh creating a micro moment of meaning, which I think are really important, um, uh, whether it's trying to be a bit more empathetic to your spouse or your partner or whomever, like whatever it is.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: It is not when people say, I'm just an asshole and that's just who I am.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: That to me is not being authentic.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: That is being selfish and self-righteous.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: And um we don't need more of that in the world.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: We need less of that in the world.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so for me, being somebody says they're keeping it real, they're probably just making an excuse for being an asshole.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: And you can keep it real and still be respectful.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that's the thing that's getting lost in a lot of the contentious conversations we have, whether it's domestically or globally or whatever.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so for me, leadership is an interesting construct that we've created frameworks to say that this is and is not a good leader.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think we all are a rainbow of leadership.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: It's just understanding what color best suits our style.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, um, you might be very direct in your leadership style or uh more question focused or curiosity focused in your leadership style.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's some people who are definitive of like right, wrong, let's go.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: You know, I just always lean back on there isn't a right or wrong way, except for in my mind and just me, is that you just have to be respectful.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, like just be respectful.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: Like I think it gets lost.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: Um and and you know, when I say respectful, I also mean also on the other side of that, um uh accountable.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: I think accountability is a huge thing.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that's the integrity part of the model, is that accountability.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: Um because, you know, I over four years, the amount of times I laid myself bare of I'm sorry for making a mistake, that that is tough for people to do because they feel like that's a direct reflection on them.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: Um and the reality is that it does just for majority of people as a leader, if you can say, hey man, I screwed up, that's on me.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: How can we make it right?
37:01
SPEAKER_01: That goes further to building bridges and building trust than um placame or being agnostic.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so yeah, I love it.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: You kind of wrote me in, Paul.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: I'll go on tangents.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: You gotta bring me back.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: I got that's my ADHD.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: I'm letting they're interesting, they're interesting tangents.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: I'm letting you go.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: But the but what I think is really interesting there, and I'm really glad you went there, is I had an unanswered question reading, reading the book.
37:29
SPEAKER_02: I and it and it was much along the lines of what you just said, which is like it says it's a book about leadership, and it sort of is a book about leadership, but you have to I think you have to define what that what that means.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: And the reality is that there's a difference between being a book for leaders and being a book about leadership, because leadership is a trait that we all have to display at various points, uh, points in our lives, right?
37:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but if you remember the the film Mediocracy, where he says, Are you gonna lead, are you gonna follow, you're gonna get out of the way.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, in re in reality, that's sort of what we do at various different points in our lives, in various different parts of our lives as well.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you might be a leader in your company, but you might subsume that leadership role in other aspects of your life at times.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: And even if you are uh like the intern in the company, you can and should show leadership at times where it's where that's appropriate.
38:32
SPEAKER_02: And hopefully, you've got an environment that supports and draws out those leadership traits in you.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's I think it's great that you were um talking about leadership in that in that role.
38:43
SPEAKER_02: Let's let's briefly go into um into the characteristics that you talk about in your in your model, which I think is really interesting.
38:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, so we talked about self-awareness, we talked a little bit about um growth mindset, which broaden a little bit and talk about as the learning mindset.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we have these other three aspects, which are compassion, integrity, and relatableness.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
39:10
SPEAKER_02: As you point out, isn't the word, but it sounds like it should be.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:14
SPEAKER_02: So um I think we've gone into a little bit of the integrity piece already.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to hear your thoughts specifically around relatableness and compassion.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you know, relatableness um for me can almost be boiled down into micro moments of meaning, which is a kind of a phrase I banter around.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of research around if you and I have a conversation, well, how short or long it is, if I leave that conversation with you smiling or laughing, you are more likely to go have another conversation where you do the same with that person, whomever that is.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: And so creating these mini micro moments of meaning not only puts you in a better mental frame, but it also puts others in a better, better mental frame.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: And it creates a spider web effect, if you will, if people believe in that inside the organization as a way to infect the organization with positive vibes.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: I know that's like a bit hippy-dippy in some ways, but like the reality is that if you and I talk and you laugh afterwards, your indoor friends are going.
40:21
unknown: Yeah.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: And so you turn around and have a conversation with Susie next door, and you're gonna be smiling already.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: So that's gonna put her at ease as well.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: And so that has a huge impact.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, the idea of relatableness for me is really around this concept of just valuing these relationships that you have, no matter how short or long the conversation is, no matter how new or old they are in terms of relationships.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, because the power of the network through communication could be one of the most powerful things you could create around you for someone who's espousing leadership qualities or capabilities.
40:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
41:00
SPEAKER_02: That's that's really super interesting.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: And you draw on something which I think is is fascinating in its own right, which is the way in which, for want of a better word, sentiment can spread through you got a whole bunch of leeway.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: All right, so then comp uh compassion is the other, uh, is the other side of the story.
41:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so I chose the way you get into that.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, actually, just before you get into it, there was one thing.
41:25
SPEAKER_02: Um and I wanted to I wanted to to quote it.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of quoting you, quoting somebody.
41:31
SPEAKER_02: Okay um, but but I really liked it.
41:35
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's from awakening compassion at work.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, Monica, is it Warline, you say it?
41:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and James Dunn.
41:44
SPEAKER_02: Uh Jane Dunn, sorry.
41:45
SPEAKER_02: Um so this is the quote.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: We seldom consider that suffering occurs within organizations, that organizations could be human, but suffering is present and it allows for the growth of an organizational culture of compassion.
42:00
SPEAKER_02: I I really love that text in its own right.
42:03
SPEAKER_02: But what I'm curious about now, because as you get into kind of describing what you mean by compassion here, is as you're thinking about your journey right now, so the failure as you see it that you've gone through, right?
42:18
SPEAKER_02: There is the failure, that failure it sounds like it relieves some suffering in your in your case.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: Also it uh grief, right?
42:29
SPEAKER_02: Created some.
42:31
SPEAKER_02: But then presumably it's also created suffering in other people as well.
42:34
SPEAKER_02: So as you're striving to balance that, right?
42:37
SPEAKER_02: How do you balance the compassion you need to show for yourself with the compassion that you need to show to others at the exactly the same time?
42:45
SPEAKER_02: What's how how do you square that circle?
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a tough one to square because something has to give, right?
42:54
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, I think in my family, by me forgiving myself, you know, there was a lot of guilt.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you know, my wife, who's amazing, didn't work up until about a year ago.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, we have you know four kids, 15 to 8.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: So you can imagine we're pretty busy just in general.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I left as a tenured professor, secure job.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: And so, like with that, there was some probably animosity and resentment growing in my wife over time.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: Couldn't take vacations, couldn't put her kids in certain camps, couldn't do certain things.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so when I left, and by the way, she invested her retirement in the business.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: So, not only did I convince her to do that, then I put mine in the business.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: Um so, like, I kind of had her put her poker, and she's not a risk taker.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: So I I convinced her to slide her chips into the middle of the pot.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: So when I left, And walked away.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: That was about me relieving my internal suffering, my own internal negative dialogue.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, our conversations with each other were focused on not the transaction of money, but the health and wellness of us as a couple and a family.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: That is a different relieving because and also for her, she was suffering because she was watching me.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: So she's suffering watching the bank, but she's suffering watching me as well.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: And so for her, there's no amount of money that was more important than my health and well-being.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: So it relieved her suffering in that capacity.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: Now, for my business partner, he probably felt a ton of suffering too, that he didn't feel like he could run the business how he felt was best for him.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: He ended up being the majority shareholder, and that was part of our issue was that that dynamic.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: And so for me leaving, it freed up his suffering of feeling constrained.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think it allows him then to do what he believes is best for the business.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: In an organizational setting, if it's, you know, I think the dynasty, the dynastim is still there.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where that self-awareness part of the model and the relationship part of the model is really important, is that if you and I have a contentious relationship, Paul, inside an organization, if I really care about you as a human being first, if we have a relationship, I'm gonna go out of my way to try to relieve that suffering for you.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: Now that might be because of me or because of somebody else, but I'm going to figure out how I can help you if you allow me to help you.
45:34
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
45:35
SPEAKER_02: It does.
45:36
SPEAKER_02: It does.
45:36
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's and I think it's really interesting.
45:39
SPEAKER_02: We could be talking for hours here.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: We're all we're supposed to be.
45:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh I will I've got one final question for you, if that's okay.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: So I'm unemployed, Paul.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: I got all the time I need.
45:51
SPEAKER_02: Well, and actually the last question is sort of related to that.
45:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:54
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you mentioned that you went through all of these different um stages of grief, and you went through them, you know, it sounds pretty rapidly.
46:03
SPEAKER_02: But if I'm guessing, and I am guessing, I'm thinking that you're not fully through this yet.
46:10
SPEAKER_02: Um and so Mike, I think I think that makes it why do you think that?
46:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, aside from anything else, it would just be super quick.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: But the preference on this though, so that that's why I think it's interesting, is that I spent 12 months in denial and depression, right?
46:29
SPEAKER_01: Understood.
46:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:31
SPEAKER_02: Understood.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: But if you if you relate it to kind of something else, let's say, for example, that you were looking after an elderly relative.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: Just death, right?
46:40
SPEAKER_01: So the grieving process of death.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and absolutely.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: And the elderly you see the elderly relative suffering terribly.
46:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, really, really horrendous, like last year of life.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: And finally, the last, you know, the last piece of that happens.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't always translate to like next day is like, oh, sure.
46:56
SPEAKER_02: It's fine now.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: So you still, I mean, you the the pieces that that generally linger in terms of what we've seen with started founders when we get to when they sort of get to this process is things like, you know, they kind of miss it, right?
47:10
SPEAKER_02: They miss the they they miss the cut and thrust, they still love the idea, they kind of like and you know, and they're they're struggling to kind of let let go of all of those elements.
47:18
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, maybe maybe you are.
47:20
SPEAKER_01: No, you know, I mean, so no, no, you you could be right.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think I think that's fair.
47:23
SPEAKER_01: And there's no question that, but I was pushing back on why you thought that, because obviously I must be giving a vibe that that you're picking up.
47:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's why I asked the question.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: I must be obviously exuding something that's like, well, you're not fully done with this yet.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: Um go ahead.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: So anyway, I think I'm I think I'm picking that up, but we'll see.
47:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: But the but my question really is that what I think makes that really interesting is that in the book, you talk quite a bit that um about that approach of like what would you tell, what would you tell your younger?
47:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:01
SPEAKER_02: I want to flip that with you.
48:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:03
SPEAKER_02: So what I wanna what I want to know is what do you not want your future self to forget?
48:11
SPEAKER_02: So what is it that is either gone on super recently or is going on right now that you're like, I gotta hold on to this, I gotta make sure that my future self doesn't forget this so it doesn't make you know, X mistake again.
48:27
SPEAKER_02: And and you know, I I know I'm throwing this on you.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: It's actually a great question because I know the answer.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: It's something I've thought about.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, don't forget your intuition.
48:37
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: I I I I set my intuition aside 95% of the time, and I was right almost every single time with my intuition.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Like instantly, this is not gonna work.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: I know why.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: I'd get convinced to do it the other way, it wouldn't work.
48:53
SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, I knew I was right.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: And this happened countless times um over the four years because I def my insecurity was at the top working with individuals who have been in the industry for 20 years.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: So I just defaulted, like, they must know the right thing.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: They they totally understand.
49:08
SPEAKER_01: And when you learn, it's like you can work in Microsoft for 50 years, it doesn't equip you for a startup.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: Like it just doesn't.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: It's a totally different animal.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so like that was my biggest.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't ever want to forget uh my intuition.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: I want to check it, but I don't want to forget it and neglect it.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: And I think that was a really big lesson that I learned over the last four years that I will always, always hold on to.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: All right.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: Well, we will leave it right there, James.
49:38
SPEAKER_02: I really enjoyed the conversation.
49:40
SPEAKER_02: I hope you did too.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for joining us today.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Paula.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
49:46
SPEAKER_00: Humanity Working is produced and edited for Billion Minds by Matt Neal.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: Our interviewer is Paul Slater.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: Music is by Dolo Records.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: If you like this podcast, please subscribe, like, and recommend us to others.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: It helps us reach more people.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: If you want to learn more about how Billion Minds gets companies ready for the future of work by building adaptable, resilient employees, look for them on LinkedIn or visit their website at billionminds.com.