Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | Ep17 Robin Peake on the fundraising fundamentals your charity is forgetting
Transcript
- Robin Peake: People give to people. People give because they're asked. If we talk about how great we are as charities and people will applaud that. If we talk about the need that we're trying to meet, then people will give to that. And I think there's a lot of innovation. in fundraising, but that innovation needs to be built on those fundamentals. And I think that is a real problem in the sector actually at the minute is that people are sometimes abandoning the things that are tried and tested and that work in favour of some new shiny thing that actually is just putting good money after bad. And so I've really tried in the book to outline what those fundamentals are and to encourage people to to be doing the right things. Adam Stacey: I'm really pleased to have Robin on the Charity Changemakers podcast. Robin, thanks so much for joining us. Robin Peake: Yeah, great to be on, Adam. Long time listener, first time guest. Adam Stacey: Yeah, brilliant. Well, that's great. Great. Great to hear it. It's nice to know that there's people out there listening and enjoying enjoying the pod. And that's brilliant. One of the things that I shan't someone the other day and said you should start reading some of the reviews from listeners and trying to get a bit more interactive. So we've got a few ideas for next season coming coming coming up. That's good. But Robin, as you know, as a longtime listener, I'm terrible at introductions. So I have very slippery shoulders and allow the guest to do it. them do it themselves. So take a minute I'll say to tell us who you are and what you do. Robin Peake: Sure thing. So I'm Robin Peake. I'm Deputy CEO at Wycliffe Bible Translators. I've been in the charity sector for, I guess, about 14, 15 years. My background has been fundraising. We're a home working organisation. I used to live in Oxford, but for the last couple of years, my wife, kids and I, we live in Macclesfield, close to the Peake district. Adam Stacey: nice to make that move up north. yes, yeah, brilliant. And as you know, we have some quickfire questions, opportunity for the listeners to get to know you a little bit better. So before we get into the big stuff, talk about the career journey. What does a good weekend or a day off look like for you? Robin Peake: a good weekend involves camping. Adam, just, love camping. We did six camping trips this summer and I just, I just love it. I love everything about it. love packing all the stuff in the car, like it's Tetris and making sure everything fits in. I love that first beer after you've set up camp. I love just waking up and having a coffee and everything is slow. So making porridge, making dinner, everything is just deliberately slow. So my ideal weekend. is to go away camping and then on the Saturday go to go outdoors and buy some things for camping. That's like heaven for me. Adam Stacey: Yeah, are the rest of the family on board with this? Robin Peake: They've definitely got on board. They've definitely got on board. Now, Adam Stacey: Yes, okay. Robin Peake: our kids are ten in here and they just love the freedom and we just enjoy kind of sitting by reading books while they go off and make friends. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Do you know what, kind of, I absolutely hate a camping. I've got to be honest, but we did buy a caravan and went at kids, we're sort of that age, because I was like, I need a comfier bed, that is basically. And you're absolutely right, for those primary school age, the kids absolutely loved it. And like you say, you could just send them off and make mates and be outdoors. But I still not converted to the tent. Good, good. What's something small that brings you a disproportionate amount of joy? Robin Peake: I love electric scooters. just, so with working from home, when I'm down in London or when I'm down in Oxford, I say I'm maybe once or twice a month, I just love traveling on electric scooter. it's, it's more Oxford's terrible for traffic when I'm back there. So I can guarantee if I start here, you know, how long it will take me to get there. And I just find it really fun weaving in and out of the traffic, probably causing people to swear at me, but just life can be so serious. And electric scooters for me are just like adult play. Adam Stacey: Yeah, right, okay. Excellent. That was not, I mean, I never have any idea what people are going to say. I don't think that's even hit onto a bingo card of things that people are going to say. So yeah, brilliant. No, that's good. And what's one thing that people always assume about your job that just, yeah, just isn't true. Robin Peake: Yes, because I'm a deputy CEO at Wycliffe Bible Translators, when I meet people, they assume that I can speak lots of languages or maybe even more than one language. And I can't, I can just speak English. But I guess that's true for so many people around the world. You know, they speak their language and if the Bible isn't in their language, then they can't understand it or read it. So people sometimes think that I'm cleverer than I am because I work for a Bible translation organization. But yeah, that's not that's not been my bag. Adam Stacey: Yeah, you've not got your quill out. translating. well, okay. Robin Peake: No, no, that's not me. There's other fantastic people who do that. Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah. No, brilliant. Good. Good. And look, these, these conversations are all about trying to understand, you know, people's route into the charity sector. And we're on show 45 or something like that at the moment. And we don't think we've had one, one route that's matched, matched another. So it always feels like a bit of a big question. But yeah, how did it all start for you? How did you find yourself working in the charity sector? Robin Peake: Yeah, at university I studied history and then I applied for a grant and got a grant to do a masters in football history, which was a lot of fun, but not very vocational at all. And I don't know whether deep down I realised if I can raise money from the government to fund me to have a nice year studying 1920s footballers, then maybe I can raise money for stuff that actually matters. So I don't know. So I guess I stumbled into the charity world. I was in Ireland at the time. I needed a job. I found a job at a charity in Oxford. And then from that moved on to a fundraising job with a charity called Inovista where I was for six years. And even that was sold to me as a communications job. was like no one would want to do fundraising. So let's pretend it's communications and don't know, development or engagement or one of these mysterious words. But I just find that I really enjoyed fundraising. It appealed to my I guess, goal driven nature. appealed to my, you know, the pace of fundraising is often faster maybe than other teams. I just really enjoyed all of that side of things. And I think actually years later, I read a book by Parker Palmer called Let Your Life Speak. So he's an American Quaker who wrote this book and it's pretty short, but it talks about how we are our true selves when we're like seven, eight, nine, 10 years old. before we become teenagers and we want to impress our friends and before we become adults and we want to keep up with the Joneses. And actually looking back, I can remember being seven, eight years old and doing a sponsored mile to raise money for the NSPCC full stop appeal. I think there was, so there was just for me then something in that of going in my purest self, before any of that kind of pressure from other people came on me, I wanted to do good things. And I knew that raising money from other people could mean that more good things would happen. So yeah, that was interesting watching that. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah. So it was some sort of, yeah, I guess flashbacks that joy, that joy that comes from generosity, from being a donor, from being involved in that and on both sides, clearly, for you. And what did that look like at InnerVista? What was the role? What was the sort of the size of the team? it, yeah, how were you sort of learning? Robin Peake: Yeah, so when I joined, I was the loan fundraiser that had a vacancy for eight months and I was in charge of social media, sending out the emails, doing the grant application, setting up meetings with major donors, managing the IT outsourced agency, managing the photocopier lease and I hoovered the office on Wednesdays. So it was this very broad range. And actually, I loved that. I loved being a generalist. meant that, you so I could have joined a huge charity. and come in as like digital brand officer, you know, and had a niche around a specialism. But I found that being involved in a small charity has really helped me develop into a generalist. So I've tried my hand at lots of different things. And that probably means I'm an expert in none of them. But I've been able to, I guess, have that breadth. And that's really helped me now as I manage people and manage a fundraising team. And it was just great. It was great being thrown in. The other thing that it did for me, Adam, because I was joining an organization that wasn't a fundraising expert and I wasn't a fundraising expert, I knew that I needed to learn and I needed to learn from other people. And again, because we were a small charity, wasn't like, you know, here's five grand and go and do a diploma, that sort of thing. So I just ended up like finding people and buying them lunch, buying them coffee and saying, listen, I'm new to this. Teach me what you can. I spent a day at CAP. Christians Against Poverty, spent a day at T.E.A.R. Fund where I just wrote to them and said, I'm new to fundraising. I'd really like to get better at it. Can I come and meet your team? And both organizations just set up like a day for me to walk around and meet the person from major donors, the person from trust, supporter services. And that was fantastic for me. So I think that kind of experience really helped, really shaped me and really helped me see that, you know, actually, if I am intentional about my learning and development, my growth, and I'm intentional about meeting people who are further ahead on the journey than me, then I can really grow. And we did, you know, our income doubled over four years and we grew the team from kind of just me to, but I think by the time I left, was four of us working on that. Adam Stacey: Yeah, right. Okay. So incredible results in what is a relatively short period of time, right? And just incredible that organizations, I you say that you reach out to, I mean, love that about the sector. That's just an openness to support and encourage and yeah, and to go and get that experience in. Obviously, know, bigger organizations, clearly just was a real blessing to Inovista and obviously yourself. Robin Peake: Yeah, I mean, just so good. And I think I've tried to carry that on. think most people in fundraising, you we didn't go to fundraising school. And so I find that people have been generous to me and I've tried to pass it on. So when people are starting out and they reach out, does just feel like it's our duty to pass on what we've learned, which is both the things that we've learned that work well and also the mistakes that we've made that we would like other people to not have to make. And I find that to be true across the charity sector. as a whole, people are really generous with their time. It's not a competitive space. know, we're Cliff Bible Translators. We're not competing with Bible Society or other organizations like that. We're competing with apathy. And we all win when charities are better at fundraising and do a better job at inspiring people to be more generous. Because if we can inspire people to be more generous, then everything benefits. The donors benefit, right? Because they're, you know, it's releasing dopamine and they're just, like a generous life is just a better life. But then if they're generous to our charity, they're also more likely to be generous to other charities who ask them because they'll have had a positive experience at giving. So yeah, I just think that that kind of thinking, that mental model permeates how we, you know, how we seek to learn from other people and how we seek to be generous with what we have learned. Adam Stacey: Absolutely. And how far through the career journey do you think that guess that realisational that approach kind of, you know, fell into your leadership that you were like, this is about this, this dopamine hit about, you know, encouraging the donor centric. Was that there from the start? is it? Robin Peake: Yeah, so it was interesting when I joined, I guess I joined a charity sector and fundraising around 2012. And a few years after that, there was a story of a lady called Olive Cook. Olive Cook was a 92 year old lady from Bristol who very sadly, very tragically ended her own life. And one of the stories that come out of that was that she was being hounded by charities. That was the kind of daily mail. And that just led to, guess, the charity sector to fundraising really looking in on itself and saying, are we treating donors right? And so a lot of the roots of supported experience have kind of come out of that time. And the best thinking on that kind of predates that. comes out of the 90s. And we talk about relationship fundraising. Ken Burnett and others coined that term and led the way on that as a, I guess, as a contrast to very transactional things. And so it is just a truism that if as charities we treat supporters well, they will treat us well in return. And so for me, that is just such a gift, right? That if we as fundraisers are kind to donors, if we're thoughtful about donors, if we're kind of just living well and being good people, then that is good for business. And I just think... That's really nice, right? Because no one wants to have to sacrifice their values in favor of results. And so to be able to live out your values and live in a way that treats people well and know that that increases support or attention, that increases loyalty, that increases revenue is really, really exciting. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. And I know we're skipping ahead a bit, how do you, yeah, how do you put that into the culture of an organisation? And, know, and help that sort of trickle down across the team and approach in what is obviously, you know, clearly, it's a it's a results driven business, isn't it? To a degree. Robin Peake: Yeah, so I think some of the things is hiring people who are donors. So one of the questions I often ask people when we interview them is, me about the charities you give to and why. And so I don't really want to hire stingy people to be fundraisers because it affects their mindset, right? Because then they're going to think that other people don't want to give money. so fundraising is hard if you think that people do not want to give money or do not feel good about giving money. But if you are a donor yourself, if you experience that joy of giving, if you've had those moments when you've made a gift beyond what kind of makes economic sense, when you've made a sacrifice maybe in order to make a gift because there's just an opportunity that was so meaningful, then you're much more open to the joy that that can bring donors because you've experienced that joy yourself. So when we're hiring fundraisers, we're always looking for people. who know and understand and live out that joy of giving because that's just such a mental shift. I love giving. think giving is one of the things that, you know, I'm just very good at. And so my expectation is that other people will enjoy giving too. And that Adam Stacey: Yeah, true. Robin Peake: just as a mental model is really helpful. And then I think in terms of the culture that we seek to build, I've been, you know, I feel really fortunate at Wycliffe Bible Translators that Fundraising isn't this kind of dirty thing that sits in a corner and we only pay attention to it when it's not working, right? I think we've got a culture that has come a long way, but a culture that is saying fundraising is valuable. Fundraising is valuable for the donors who give and it really helps the work that we have here to do. And part of that is about, I guess, making the gap smaller between the team and the donor. As I say, we're homeworker and organization. get together once a month in person for a day. And when we got together in September this year, what we did was we took 20 minutes in the middle of our day together to write cards to people who give money to us every month. and, and, you know, that's the whole team. That's Alison in finance. That's Paul in IT. That's, that's everybody writing a card to someone who has decided that this is a cause they want to support. And they're going to do that with a monthly gift. And we're not thanking them for any other reason than to just say thank you, we see you, we really appreciate you and because of what you're doing that's making a difference for the thing that you care about. Adam Stacey: you're right. That makes a huge, huge difference. I was, you know, talking with a colleague the other day who had been administering an estate and, you know, one of the organizations that that person had chosen to leave some money to, you know, wrote, you know, took time out just to write a thank you card. And yeah, you like say that you just you think, wow, difference that makes when that lands on the door. And you can see that difference between charities and organizations that some that just Don't take that approach as well. Robin Peake: It doesn't take much to stand out. That's kind of the depressing thing, but also I think the opportunity for charities. I remember when I was treasurer for our church and we came to the end of year to do some giving to different charities. And I think I phoned three different charities to get the bank details to make a gift. One person just kind of passed me on, you know, was like our church wants to make a gift and I said, okay, I'll pass you through the finance, finance, give me the details. No one bothered saying thank you. I think one then said, can I take your details so that we can say thank you? I thought, okay, that's interesting. mean, you know, and in my head, I'm thinking you could say thank you now, you know, essentially what you're doing is you're my details to add me to your database. And just that mind, it really doesn't take much to stand out. And if you, you know, I always used to think if, if, if we ever received money from a trust or foundation, they're, they're often sending out their grant notification emails on the same day. you know, They've met on a Wednesday and on the Friday, they sent out the notifications to say yes. You know, and I know some of the ones I'm involved with, they like to do it on a Friday because they like to make people's weekends better. And then they'll send out the notes on the Monday. when they do that, it's almost like they're firing a gun in a race. And so they're going to notice the charity that, you know, five minutes later picks up the phone rather than just replies to the email and says, listen, you've just made my weekend and this is going to make a huge difference for services. They're going to notice that charity. That's going to stand out. The other charity that's going to stand out is the one that three weeks later they have to write to and say, we sent you the money. Can you confirm that you got it? And so we want to stand out for the good reasons. It is quite despairing just how low the bar is and yet doing those things that can help you stand out. So in our team at Wycliffe, we have a team called Supported Care. And they're the ones who answer the phones and respond to the emails and process gifts. And we're constantly saying Supported Care is not just a team name. It is our culture. And one of things that we do within that team is we say to them, listen, you've got a 50 pound budget every month to spend on donors, just to be creative. And so we've seen amazing things. We've seen a fantastic colleague in my team called Jess. And so there was a couple who, when they were married for 50 years, what they did was they said to their friends, we're going to have a party come round, but don't buy us any guests. Just if you want to make a donation to Wycliffe Bible Translators. I think they raised like 700 quid. And so what Jess did was Jess got She went on to Canva and she got a Bible verse because this is Bible translation. And then she translated that Bible verse into a different language and got it sent to her off Canva, got it in a frame and sent it to this couple as a way of marking their 50th wedding anniversary. Not because she had to, but because she wanted to. And what you end up with is, you know, for us, for me, that 50 pound a month is the best investment we make because it means that donors are receiving something in the post, whether it's children who making the donation and they get stickers. Or, you know, there someone who sent us a gift during COVID because they had more money because they weren't going to garden centers. So they sent us some money and then we sent them a plant, you know, because they weren't able Adam Stacey: Yeah. Robin Peake: to go to garden centers. And what it does is it actually really benefits the donors, but it also is really encouraging for the team because who doesn't want to take 30 minutes out of their day to just do something nice for someone? And so, Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Robin Peake: you know, I think that's been really good for morale. attention and all of those things in the team, even though that hasn't been the main reason we've been doing it. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah. And is that then that that support to care centric approach? Does that then spill out wider than obviously just just sitting within the fundraising team across across the organisation? Robin Peake: Yeah, I think so. mean, I think there's always work for us to do on that. But what we try to see that, because it's not just about caring for supporters, It's then caring for the Bible translators overseas and making sure that some of them have been sent here from the UK and making sure that they've got really good support around them. Many of them increasingly are locals on the field and making sure that we are the charity who are giving them money. So that creates this kind of Western... hard imbalance. We're Western, we're white and we're the funder. And actually we need to work really hard to make sure that we are not funders, that we are partners with them and making sure that we're holistically looking out for them. So I think it is, it's in everything we do. How do we do that? How do we do that in our internal HR? How do we make sure that the things we offer to staff, to employees are not just at the bottom base level, we're not just in the minimum on on whether it's pension or benefits or anything like that. How do we kind of go above and beyond? Because people are loyal to those kinds of things and that's true for donors and that's true for employees as well. Adam Stacey: That's great. We've kind of gone from inner vista at the start to talking about Wycliffe and I feel like maybe we've missed a bit in the middle. Have we? Robin Peake: Yeah, so I did a couple of years at home for goods. So when I left Inovista, I just remember I started to look around for jobs and I just had this fear. So I'd done six years, I knew that income was growing and I just had this fear, am I a good fundraiser or am I a good fundraiser at Inovista? And I really had this fear to kind of step out in case I find that I would go to another charity and it would just... It would just go terribly wrong. I just, you know, was just that these particular set of, I don't know, this kind of environment at Endovista was what worked really well for me. So I really wanted to test myself in a different environment and I find that really hard to kind of get the courage to do that. But I did that. I joined home for good on a year's contract, ended up doing two. And then this version of this job came up. was essentially a director of fundraising job at Wycliffe. At that time, I was a trustee on the Wycliffe board. And so I knew a couple of things. I knew that there was support from the board for fundraising and I knew that the CEO was someone who backed fundraising. And the fundraisers who are listening at it will understand is you just don't want to work for someone who doesn't believe that fundraising should exist. There are many, many charity CEOs who want the money, but not the fundraising. that is a huge, that just affects us massively. And I have a boss who values what we do, who knows what he doesn't know. So he'll offer opinions, but he also knows that we're not going to take his opinions and do things his way because James is a man in his 50s. He's not our kind of average donor. He's a woman in her 70s. And so that's been huge for me. And just making sure that for me as a fundraiser that I'm reporting in to a CEO who gets it. and he is really supportive. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Like you say, mean, the value of a chief executive board in that position is absolutely huge for the fundraising team. And through that journey then from Innovista to Home for Good to Wycliffe, I mean, you talked about in the early days, obviously about that, being like a sponge and trying to soak up information and learning from others. Are there other things that have, then as you've developed your career, moved into more leadership type roles that have then helped you to grow? to grow in your approach to fundraising and have supported you along that career journey. Robin Peake: Yeah, loads. So, I mean, you know, there's the training and the webinars and the courses and things like that. I find networking really helpful. find taking people for lunch really helpful. I have a man called Matthew who's been my mentor for 10 years, but he doesn't know that he's my mentor because all I did was say to him, can I buy you lunch? And I brought my problems and he really helped me with them. And then three or four months later, I said, can I buy you lunch again? And so we've been doing that for 10 years and he's just, you know, further ahead in his career than me and has been really, really kind. I have a coach called Rachel. I've used Rachel in a few different jobs, maybe for a similar time, like 10 years. And I just find that coaching is incredible value for money because it just unlocks things in me. helps. It gives me that space to talk through things and find solutions. And that has just been so, so invaluable to me. I was voicing out to her this morning because we had a session on Tuesday and it just has massively helped me this week. And so it's just kind of... important back to her on that. And I've done some official things too, if you like. I've done a diploma in fundraisers and I'm about to start a masters in voluntary sector leadership and management. And I've been able in two cases to convince my employers that these are good things to invest in and actually pitch that in a way that if I leave in the next few years, then I owe you the money back that you're paying for this. And so I find that a really helpful way because I think often we, you know, often the limit on our learning and our growth and our development is ourselves. No one is ever going to care about my growth as much as I do. And so for me to try to outsource that to a boss and complain that there's not budget or anything like that is just not the way to do it. And I think it is about going after it, trying to improve, bringing your life stuff to people who are further ahead than you. The other thing that I've developed maybe over the last five years. Someone gave me this idea, but it was, you know, every charity has a board of trustees. What does it look like to have your own personal board of trustees? So I've kind of developed that as a model where I've got Matthew, my mentor, I've got Rachel, my coach. I've got a guy called Stuart who, like me, has a fundraising background and is now a deputy CEO. I've got a couple of other people as well. And I don't gather them every three months to meet together with. Adam Stacey: And say, do they even know Robin? is it all just free lunches? Robin Peake: No, they don't. don't. tell them. So we don't have board meetings and board papers and providing a quarterly report on myself or anything like that. But just thinking of people in that way and just like, every few months I want to be checking in with those people and just, you know, because that's the support that I need. That's the questioning that I need. The sharp thinking. I just find that if I spend too long where I'm not having phone calls, having Zoom calls, having coffees with people. who are in my sector, who are in my space, I'm just not sharp. And actually meeting people who are further ahead than me or who are in different sectors, whether that's in business or in marketing or things like that, really sharpens my thinking. And the sharper my thinking is, the better I think I am for Wycliffe and for leading my team. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. I think the danger is that if you close those things down, you become quite so insular, don't you? And so focused that you can kind of miss that bigger picture and things that are happening across the sector, which is obviously vital. And I guess for you, maybe in this transition from director of fundraising, I don't know whether that was the title actually at Wycliffe, but director of fundraising to then deputy CEO, that kind of, guess, has brought a bit more responsibility across organization in some ways. Robin Peake: Yeah, so two years ago or so my job title changed partly to reflect some stuff that I was doing. And I guess that that role has kind of come about. And so it wasn't a role that existed before. And James, my boss, I found, you know, he's he's trusted me with with some more different things. So I led us through our kind of developing our new strategy, which for me was about taking the stuff I'd already done for years on fundraising strategy and then applying that model more widely, which was a lot of fun. And I lead our leadership team meetings, which sometimes is just weird, right? You're chairing a meeting where the people in your meeting, they're not people who report to me, but the person they report to, my boss as well, is also in that meeting. So that took a couple of months to just get my head around. And I've enjoyed that kind of responsibility. One of the things I wasn't expecting, maybe two things I wasn't expecting, Adam. One was how switching from having a job title that was essentially fundraising to having a a job title that's much more organisational leadership. I find it much, much easier to meet major donors. And I think partly they now see me as an organisational leader. Actually, partly I now see myself as an organisational leader. So I've had more courage to stop putting off meetings and just go and meet people. And so that's been really interesting. The other thing I find is people in the team started laughing at my jokes more. And I just had this moment where I... We were away for a, we, every year we go away for 24 hours in a residential. And I was kind of sitting at the table, having drinks and there's people around me. And I just realized you're laughing way too much. And, and, and it's because now I have this like stupid, big, important job title. And so people treat you differently. And, and I've really noticed, I think since the job title change is I'm now in a place where I get less feedback from my team. And that really scares me because I thrive on feedback. You know, I'm constantly doing things that are wrong, that are annoying, that are hurtful, that are damaging to the organization or people. And I need people to point it out because everyone thinks it's obvious to me, but it's like driving down the road and you know, there's a brake light off in your car and everyone behind Adam Stacey: you Robin Peake: you is like saying a stupid person needs to fix a brake light, but you've no idea unless someone points it out to you. And so feedback Adam Stacey: Yeah. Robin Peake: is huge for me. And I just, my concern is... that as I become more senior, the feedback gets quieter. because people still have feedback, right, they still know in their heads or they're talking about you, but I need it directly in order to be able to do something with it. So that's something I'm thinking through is how do I really encourage that feedback? And so one of the things I did a year ago was, as I mentioned, I have a coach called Rachel and I got her to go round and interview the people who work for me and a few other people across the team and just do this full 360 evaluation Adam Stacey: Yeah, sure. Robin Peake: and then report to me. how other people view me and that's been really helpful and that's basically given me a long list of things to work through and Adam Stacey: Yes. Robin Peake: get better on. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But great for instilling that culture across the organization, which I guess is tricky because it's a remote organization. Like you say, that time together is, you know, in person is once a month, but you've still got to try and instill that culture. Yeah, you know, the other 29 days of the month, right? Robin Peake: Yeah, think, think so. So you have to be intentional about culture. And I think with us being remote remote first, we've really known that was, think, actually, if you're in a physical office, you can assume a lot about culture. So when we were in a physical office, we were over three floors. And actually, it was very easy to come in and work on the third floor and leave without having spoke to anyone on the other two floors. And so. We've really worked hard on culture and I think being remote first has forced us to be intentional about that. Last year we were one of the charities, last year we were one of the organisations who were recognised in the Sunday Times Best Places to Work. We were the only Christian charity listed there actually and we think that's because we've been really intentional about culture. We've worked really hard on that and but you can never take it for granted. And so for us as a remote organization, we've basically decided on four rhythms. know, every day as a Christian organization, we meet together for about 30 minutes to pray together. And we're meeting with people across the organization and then we go into Zoom breakout groups. And so I'm praying with people who I don't normally work closely with. And then once a week, we have a staff meeting. Once a month, we gather in person for a day. And often there's maybe a meeting the day before or the day after to maximize that time. And then once a year we get together. you know, for 24 hours off site and have a different kind of time. And so it's really important to be really intentional about, if you like, those are our keystone habits. And we make sure when people join our organization that face to face time is prioritized. We've got a couple of new people starting in January. They live in the Lake District. I'm going to be really intentional about spending face to face time with them early doors, because that's really, really important. You know, and when you join an organization, how you start. is really important that that first week sets a lot of your expectations. know, that's then what when your mom phones or your partner asks, you how's it going that first week? They'll set really important things. And if someone's first day is just that we've sent a laptop to them and it doesn't work, then that's not the start that you want for someone kind of working from home, maybe for the first time. Adam Stacey: and you're intentionally employing people in places that you can go camping, that's this works. Robin Peake: Yeah, that is true. didn't think of that. but Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Robin Peake: I think, I mean, being remote has been great for us, both from recruitment and retention. So in my team, have people in Devon, Belfast, the Whirl, Peterborough, the South Coast, Lake District, across the organization. We've seen other people who we've recruited and they've joined us to work in the office and then they've relocated to Scotland. So as long as other charities continue to be quite office-based, it's really good for us because we're able to keep our best people. And it's very difficult for people to leave because the hygiene factors are so high. So I'd really encourage the other charities you work with on recruitment Adam to stick at being office-based because it's really good for us. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah. I'm clipping this up and sending it to lots of my clients. within about 30 seconds of us ending this podcast. Yeah, Robin Peake: Amazing. Adam Stacey: to encourage that remote remote working. But you're right. I mean, you look at the market now. And obviously, you know, I've been in recruitment recruitment now for seven or eight years with with with charisma, know, the first question people would ask me, you know, when I started in this job is what's the salary, but now is What's the work-life balance like? What's the hybrid work arrangement? Is it remote? You know, those questions are top of Candlet's list long before we get talking about the rest of the package. There's a definite mind shift in, yeah, across sector, across individuals. So yeah, it's definitely a powerful position to be in for you guys, which is great. Robin, can't do a podcast this time for you without talking about the eighth edition of the Complete Fundraising Handbook that's just recently come out. Robin Peake: Yeah, so just about a month ago, the director of social change published my first book, which is so this is called The Complete Funders and Handbook. It first came in print in 1992 and it's been updated every every five years or so often by a different author. And so they asked me a few years ago to update this and I thought brilliant, chat GBT had just come out. I'll feed the old manuscript into chat GBT and just ask it to to make it more current. No, not quite. But I think I really enjoyed the process of writing the book because it covers that breadth. And this is a book that talks about, you know, major donor fundraising and individual giving and legacies and trusts and lottery fundraising and all those things, but also speaks to fundraisers and so talks about learning and development and talks about career and talks about some of the fundamentals and the principles. And it's quite deliberately written in spaces so that fundraisers can can highlight something and give it to their boss and say, see, I told you so. Because sometimes just when something's written in a book, it just kind of backs you up. So yeah, I've really enjoyed writing it. And now it's a scary bit where it's out in the world and people are reading it. But yeah, people are saying really kind things about it. So that's really nice. Adam Stacey: Yeah, no, that's good. Yeah. How did it feel when you were asked to? Because I mean, this is a handbook, you know, for fundraising, you know, my bookshelf's out of sight here, but you know, it's, you know, had editions sat on the bookshelf. I'm sure you're probably the same. It's, yeah, how did it feel when you were asked to write that? Robin Peake: Yeah, it's nice to be asked, isn't it? You know, and I think it probably felt nicer to be asked than it felt to write it. You know, we often think, yeah, I think the idea of writing a book is better than actually writing. But I enjoyed the discipline of writing. I enjoyed kind of clarifying my thinking on some of these things and bringing together different things. And, you know, it's just as we talked about before, I've been really fortunate to have learned a lot from other people. And so to kind of crystallize that and codify that and put that. in a book that's designed to be easy to read, really practical, to be really helpful for, I guess it's here maybe more people in smaller charities or at the start of their fundraising journey, but knowing that it's going to be helpful to a whole host of people. Yeah, it was just a lot of fun and now I get to see it out in the world. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. And were there new things that you needed to bring in that obviously were missing from the handbook, things that have changed or recognized, blimey, world's moving at a fast pace, right? Robin Peake: Yeah, the world has changed fast. So there's a lot more in this edition around Facebook ads and things like that. There's some references to AI as that changes. But I think that the fundamentals of fundraising, Adam, don't really change. People give to people. People give because they're asked. If we talk about how great we are as charities and people will applaud that. If we talk about the need that we're trying to meet, then people will give to that. And I think there's a lot of innovation. in fundraising, but that innovation needs to be built on those fundamentals. And I think that is a real problem in the sector actually at the minute is that people are sometimes abandoning the things that are tried and tested and that work in favour of some new shiny thing that actually is just putting good money after bad. And so I've really tried in the book to outline what those fundamentals are and to encourage people to to be doing the right things. Because the challenge we have as fundraisers is that, you know, it's not a hugely academic field. There is stuff on that, and there's increasing stuff on that. But people don't go to fundraising school. They don't graduate in the way that accountants do. you know, at Wycliffe Bible Translators, we don't tell the accountants how to do their job, but everyone's got an opinion about fundraising because everyone thinks they can have a go at it. And so actually, as fundraisers, we need to have confidence in the things that we've learned and the things that we've seen work. and to just have the confidence to do them again and again and again because they work. And if they don't work, then we're probably not adhering to those principles right. And it's not about finding something new, but it's often about finding the old tried and tested wisdom and stick into that. Adam Stacey: Yeah. We'll make sure that you're tagged appropriately in the show notes and links through to getting the book, presumably all available in, well, Directors of Social Change and all good bookshops. Yeah. Robin Peake: Yes, you can buy it off the DSC website and it's on Amazon as well. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Perfect. That's great. Good. Robin, as we come into to land these podcasts, we sort of tend to try and ask people a similar question at the end here. So what's one lesson that, you know, as you reflect on your career, that you've learned the hard way that's helped shape you into the leader that you are today. Robin Peake: Yeah, thanks, Adam. I was reflecting on this a bit as you sent the question in events. I remember when I was at Home for Good, actually, and when I joined, I was really determined to show that I was a good fundraiser. And so within my first few months, I met one of our major donors, and this was a meeting for the first time. And I thought, what I really need is a win here. I really need to go meet this donor and for them to give a big gift and then to go back. you know, to the team and be able to show what a great fundraiser I am. And so I'm literally going into this meeting with this in my mind and feeling pressure, pressure that I'm putting on myself to make the ask to close the deal, whatever it is. And I just stopped myself about five minutes before I went in and just thought, what an idiot. What are you doing? You absolute fool. And, and, and just shifted and shifted my mindset to, being one that was about how to connect with the donor, how to build rapport, how to meet their needs. And it was a much, much better meeting. And actually, as it happened at the end of the meeting, he said, you know, what do you need? And so I was able to talk to him about some needs and present that. But it just took that pressure off me because I think often in in fundraising and charities who work to 12 month targets. And so if you're meeting someone in month 11, that can be a really bad meeting if you're behind on targets. But relationships don't work in 12 month cycles. Major donors don't care about your annual budgeting. And so I think guess my lesson in all that is it has to be about long term. This has to not be about boom and bust fundraising or transactional fundraising. This is about how do we build relationships with donors that grow income over time, that grow resilient income. And I think within that for me, I guess the lesson has been to be grounded. And so I've got kind of four core values myself and one of them is to be grounded and to recognise that My identity is not in my performance. My identity is not in whether this appeal has worked or whether that major donor or that trust has said yes. And often, can view ourself worth through whether or not someone says yes to supporting our cause. And essentially what we're doing is we're giving power over to donors to say, tell me, tell me if I'm worthy, tell me if I'm good at my job. And actually, I've really sought with years to stay grounded, to stay centered. because I recognise that the work I do matters. I really care that people have the Bible in their language, but also I refuse to let my identity be totally bought into whether we have a good year in fundraising or not, because I am so much more than that. Adam Stacey: Well Robin, thank you so much for your insights and for all that you've shared on the podcast. It's been great to have you on the show. Congrats on the book and yeah, really hope that continues to go well. And obviously everything that you're doing with Wycliffe Bible Translators continues to flourish. It's been a real pleasure to have you on the show. Robin Peake: Thanks Adam, I enjoyed myself.