Latest / Merging Wisdom / Can We Disagree And Stay Connected? Navigating Different Beliefs - Ep. 4

Transcript

Can We Disagree And Stay Connected? Navigating Different Beliefs - Ep. 4 · Merging Wisdom

0:01
Merging Wisdom. Hi, welcome back to Merging
0:07
Wisdom. I'm super excited to be here
0:10
again with Dan and Serena. And if you've been following us
0:14
so far, we really appreciate it. This is something of a kind of
0:20
passion project, I think, for the three of us.
0:22
And so we're not making money off of this or putting money
0:27
into this, but it matters to us. And so if you'd help us out,
0:31
that'd be cool. So if you can like subscribe,
0:34
follow, give us reviews on this. It really helps us to be seen
0:39
more. That's a way for you to just
0:43
say, hey, keep doing this, what you're doing.
0:46
If you don't like it, obviously don't subscribe, don't follow.
0:50
That's cool too. But anyways, I'm really thrilled
0:53
to be here to talk a little bit more about our process, around
0:58
why we do what we do 'cause we're going to have voices on
1:01
here that will be like some of you, some of us right here in
1:07
this room are going to go. That rubs me a little funny.
1:11
I'm not a big fan of that, or I don't see it the way that person
1:14
sees it. And we're going to continue to
1:16
do that. To me, that's important and even
1:20
in our process of talking about this, the three of us have had
1:24
some moments of like, I don't know if I agree or if I really
1:27
want to platform that concept or you know, that's come up.
1:32
I think it's kind of important for us to talk about even our
1:35
own process in doing this if we're because I think the three
1:39
of us are committed to this pursuit of wisdom and it happens
1:45
in our mind in a number of different ways.
1:47
But one significant ways your capacity to do this, give and
1:53
take your capacity to rub up against another person and even
1:57
be a little bit like maybe triggered or you know, have some
2:02
points of disagreement and to be able to work that out to get to
2:08
a better place. I think that's been to me,
2:11
that's the journey is can you do that and get to a better place,
2:16
get to even where you're happier than if you had gotten your own
2:19
way? Do you know what I mean?
2:20
Like there are times where I think if I had gotten my own way
2:23
in this thing, it wouldn't have been as good as the fact that I
2:26
had to have this back and forth, right, Right.
2:29
Does that make sense so far? I mean, what's absolutely coming
2:31
up for you guys? I say that.
2:33
I mean, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this and we've been
2:35
talking the past week or two and I think we want to be
2:38
transparent, right? This is part of going to be part
2:41
of our process here with Merging Wisdom is to have discussions
2:46
openly on this platform together with the different people that
2:50
come on the show, with the people that are watching and
2:53
following and subscribing and liking and in the comments
2:56
sections and all that. We want this to be a, a journey
3:02
and part of that is going to be being vulnerable and transparent
3:06
with how we navigate through these, these different concepts
3:09
and, and ideas and challenges sometimes of having differing
3:13
viewpoints. And for us here at Merging
3:17
Wisdom, having a variety of viewpoints and dissenting views
3:21
and views of agreement and a very wide variety of disciplines
3:26
and and people representing different backgrounds, that's a
3:29
feature, not a bug of what we're doing.
3:33
It could be a bug if the platform, if the goal was more
3:38
of an echo chamber type scenario where we have a very specific
3:43
political view or we have a very specific culture of view.
3:46
And our platform was clearly to propagate that belief system,
3:52
that narrative, that viewpoint, and only that viewpoint.
3:55
If that was our goal, that we wouldn't be doing what we're
3:57
doing. But we're intentionally leaning
3:59
into not doing that because that's not how I like to live
4:04
and interact with people and with the world is just by living
4:08
in an echo chamber or living inside my own confirmation bias.
4:12
But I do like to seek out various views and, and some of
4:18
those I agree with, some of those I disagree with, some of
4:20
those I learn from, some of those I don't learn from, you
4:23
know, if I deem it not to be wise.
4:26
But we're intentionally doing this as a practice.
4:29
And so we're just going to hopefully bring people along on
4:33
that journey and with this practice and that it produces
4:36
some some good stuff and some stuff that's really valuable to
4:41
to take away. Even if it's not I agree with
4:44
what was said or the person that was brought on.
4:47
There's something more valuable to us than just platforming
4:52
people we only agree with. Yeah, for me it really comes
4:55
down to this experience of knowing we are all human and are
5:03
valuable just because we get to live and be alive and figure out
5:08
this life with and around each other and our differences are on
5:16
purpose. Like being similar can bring a
5:21
sense of connection and and depth, which is beautiful in in
5:28
relationships, but but also what is so beautiful is that capacity
5:33
to grow often comes when there is the differences, when there
5:37
is the friction, right? Like in any healthy growing
5:42
relationship, it's that pattern of connection, disconnection and
5:48
then repair. It's like this, this cyclical
5:52
thing, it has to come around and often times we can just get in
5:55
like, oh, there's a connection and there was a disconnection
5:58
and now we're done, you know? Or.
6:00
Or even just start with disconnection and never try and
6:03
find the common ground or some, yeah, just some, like
6:10
commonplace to to to see a reflection of what makes us
6:16
human in one another, to just value and appreciate and to
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broaden our own limited lifespan of, of collecting ideas and
6:27
opinions and and when we get to learn from each other.
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I think it's such a gift, but it's uncomfortable and it takes
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a lot of self-awareness, I think, which I hope we can can
6:41
lean into not just in this channel, but also exemplify in
6:45
our own lives. But like, that's why I
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personally, I'm really like, I really glean and find so helpful
6:51
that practicality aspect of what we're trying to bring is like,
6:54
how do we practice this for ourselves?
6:57
And learning from these others that are experts in, in some
7:01
place that I, I, you know, I'll play a naive and like I'm here
7:06
to learn, but but still trying to take what I can from it.
7:10
Not just playing dumb, but actually trying to learn and
7:14
grow, even if it feels uncomfortable.
7:17
Yeah, I liked what you said about finding common ground.
7:19
Obviously that's, that's a huge practice.
7:23
That's a, a great thing to do in life.
7:25
And obviously like this isn't all for merging wisdom.
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Like this is just a, a, a platform, but like the real
7:32
practice of this and the real like essence of this is
7:34
happening in our lives. We're doing this for our lives,
7:36
not just for a channel. So we're just, this is just a
7:39
medium to exemplify some of this stuff.
7:42
But we're really seeking to live this out primarily and have this
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conversation on this public platform is an extension of
7:50
that. But finding common ground with
7:52
people I think is hugely beneficial.
7:54
I think it's valuable. I think it it just really is a
7:58
human experience that's beautiful.
8:01
I'd rather build bridges between people of various backgrounds
8:05
than set up camps around our differences and put up walls and
8:10
boundaries. That's a huge value of of mine
8:13
and I know ours as well. So and but I'm going to nuance
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that too is something because while you were talking, there's
8:19
another thing that came up just to to nuance the discussion a
8:22
little further. But those are tremendous values
8:24
of mine and and ours. But also even finding common
8:27
ground with someone or or just introducing a topic, a speaker,
8:33
an idea, it's not just to force us to even find common ground.
8:37
There are going to be instances where we do not find common
8:40
ground, but I'm not scared of that either, right?
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It's not just so that we have to like mold everything together
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and be this amalgamation of kind of blurry Gray nothingness like
8:50
so that we don't have any beliefs or views or strong, you
8:53
know, convictions. No, that's not the point either.
8:56
Like trying to find common ground, trying to build bridges,
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but not just for the sake of ignoring your beliefs or your
9:02
convictions. So, so it's a, it's a
9:04
complicated thing. We're just going to probably
9:05
keep talking about this. You're 100% right.
9:08
I think it's, I think a big part of it is our temptation to.
9:11
If we don't know ourselves, our temptations would be like, you
9:13
know, in some case, like I don't like the conflict, I don't like
9:15
the disagreement. So I'm going to just kind of,
9:17
you know, go along. And that's a temptation for some
9:20
of us if we're not aware of it. And others it feels like if I go
9:24
along, I'm losing myself in that.
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So I need to stand my ground. I, I, I think that that's just a
9:30
little self-awareness so that we can recognize that it's not that
9:35
we're just right. It's that we're driven by
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something, a fear, something underneath that can, that can
9:42
get in the way of, of growth and learning.
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So I really appreciate you sharing that.
9:46
I think that's important for us as we continue to practice as
9:50
ourselves here, as the three of us.
9:52
Like they're going to be moments where it's like, I don't really
9:54
want the conflict or I don't really want the disagreement and
9:57
that I might back up. But if I'm tuning in, is this
9:59
like, is that coming from a place of true harmony or is it
10:03
from a place of, you know, conflict avoidance?
10:06
Or if I'm standing my ground and being a little overprotective
10:09
of, you know, what I value, what I think that then I can be a bit
10:14
immovable in some ways or, you know, unnecessarily defended or
10:20
antagonistic to an idea. So.
10:22
I like that you said something like that on the first episode,
10:25
Joel, which which was really interesting and, and made a lot
10:28
of sense. It's like if you are feeling
10:30
defensive, like if we some topic comes up on here or in life,
10:34
why, why are you feeling that feeling that you're feeling?
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I, I don't usually go to that place, but you're really good
10:39
about tuning in into that, that feeling, that emotion being
10:44
present in your body. And yeah.
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We're really valued with Serena, you said earlier I thought was
10:52
remarkably good. It's something that I'm really
10:54
practice, trying to practice myself.
10:56
And that is to remember the humanity, to remember that that
11:00
matters more, the connection, the relationship that, you know,
11:03
to see people as they are. I'm adding and elaborating a
11:07
little bit on what you were saying, but that's how I was
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hearing it in my own self as well.
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Like, yeah, a reminder people matter more than positions.
11:16
And just tuning into how I might have a reaction.
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I can feel it happening usually in my body even before I feel it
11:24
anywhere else. It's like there's a rigidity,
11:27
there's a tightening and, you know, there's a, you know, one
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of the things I asked myself is can I be wrong?
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And if I can't be wrong in a particular back and forth, then
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that's an indication I'm really in it too deep.
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I've invested way, there's too much of my own ego showing up in
11:45
that space. Conversely, if I'm like, I'm
11:47
kind of apathetic about it and pulling back, that's another
11:50
indication to where I'm losing a sort of centre of energy.
11:55
Like my my own energy's evacuating and I'm just sort of
11:59
like bland. That's another place.
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It's like not a good place to be.
12:04
So I just tuned in because I know you've been doing this long
12:07
enough to know that, boy, I can self deceive like the best of
12:12
them and I can have a great rational argument for why we
12:15
shouldn't have this person on or why I don't think your idea is
12:19
good, Dan or whatever. I can.
12:21
I can have a really good sophisticated argument for it.
12:26
I really appreciate that you haven't gone along with it, that
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you've you've pushed back. Oh, and believe me, there's a
12:32
very good chance that my idea is bad.
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There's a There's a greater than 0 chance that whatever I'm
12:37
asking or thinking is a bad idea.
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But that's one of the things it's like, am I too invested in
12:42
this that I can't be wrong, You know, it's one of the questions
12:44
I asked myself. Yeah.
12:45
And what is, what is being wrong look like, right.
12:48
And because like I keep coming back over the past couple weeks
12:50
as we try to plot out, we we've had a bunch of great
12:52
conversations. We have some recorded already,
12:55
We have some coming up and we have a bunch of plans for the
12:57
future with a lot of really good stuff.
12:59
But what does it even look like to be wrong?
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Because we talked, we don't want to set ourselves up as the
13:05
arbiters and gatekeepers of wisdom.
13:07
Like that's, that's not what this channel's about.
13:09
That's not what our lives are about is to tell everybody
13:12
what's right and wrong. So we're just on comfortably
13:16
learning to be comfortable being presented with a variety of
13:21
ideas and concepts and beliefs and agreements and disagreements
13:24
and cultural views and political views and spiritual views that
13:29
some we love, some we don't, some we might have curiosity or
13:34
confusion with. But we're not the ones to
13:37
establish what is right and wrong, even though I do believe
13:40
there is truth and right and wrong and good and bad and all
13:43
that stuff. We're trying to find that
13:45
though, but we're not, we're not the final authority on that.
13:49
That's not for us. We're we're a roundtable
13:51
discussion of a community of people and in our lives and
13:53
online and through these other voices that come on, this is a
13:56
roundtable discussion where there's no one person that holds
14:00
all the truth and gets to dictate what's right and wrong.
14:02
This is a communal human endeavor we're attempting to do
14:07
that makes it sound really lofty and really important.
14:10
We're also gonna hopefully have fun with it and be entertained
14:13
by it. So I got to put that in there.
14:14
It's a good Type 7. Yeah, Serena, remember the back
14:19
and forth you and I had early on?
14:22
This is way before we started this.
14:23
It was germinating in US. And there were times where
14:26
you're like, wait, what? What do you think?
14:28
Like, hold up. I'm not sure we're on the same
14:31
page at all on this concept of, you know, in some cases it was
14:35
like talking about spirituality, faith, you know, all of that
14:39
stuff. And and yeah, it was like there
14:41
were moments of, you know, I feel very like guarded about
14:46
this. And so I think to to just in
14:50
part your question, was it mean to be wrong?
14:53
I think just this is a existential fear that we have as
14:57
humans to be marginalized and cast off from society.
15:02
And I think this, this is like in our biology, even like to be
15:07
cast off from society means you're, you're not going to make
15:10
it if you've been abandoned by the herd.
15:14
So good luck, you know, so this is like, I think an existential
15:17
fear around being completely marginalized from people that
15:21
matter to us. And I also think that we all
15:26
need some kind of coherence. Like things have to cohere
15:29
internally. There's some studies around
15:31
coherence that if you don't have it, if a lot of incoherence
15:35
inside you is very distressing for our system.
15:38
And so if it's like suddenly you're thrown in with a new idea
15:42
that just totally upsets your your sense of mental order,
15:48
emotional order, physical order, boy, it's hard, right?
15:52
So it's that's a that's like a deep internal need for
15:55
coherence. And when that throws us off,
15:58
it's like, wait, what? Wait, now you just upset
16:01
completely my way of understanding how things are and
16:05
that can feel scary as well. And it's probably other reasons
16:09
for that. But I think that's a that
16:11
certainly comes up. At least I, I know it comes up
16:14
for me. Is that that wait, what you
16:16
know, or it is the practice I think that we're engaging in as
16:20
the three of us to kind of go, it's worth us doing this and
16:25
working through some of this stuff.
16:28
And I think I would add, besides what you had said, Dan, in terms
16:32
of like, you know, finding common ground, but at times also
16:36
finding places of disagreement, Sure.
16:39
I think it's our ability to hold tension.
16:41
And I struggle with this like everybody else.
16:44
If someone says something that doesn't set right with me, I
16:48
immediately want to resolve it. I want to fix it.
16:52
I want to solve it. The ability to hold my view.
16:56
If it's if I don't care about it, then I don't have any
16:59
tension. But if I care about it, then if
17:02
something is said that is opposing what I fundamentally
17:05
think or believe. Now again, I'm a head type, so
17:07
it's coming from there. I want to fix it.
17:10
I want to resolve it. I want to solve that puzzle
17:13
right. I'm going to fixate on it until
17:14
I get there. But if I allow the tension, and
17:17
this is what I, I think one of our big values in merging
17:20
wisdom, we're going to have somebody on who I know I, I
17:25
think differently on a, on, on some fundamental things.
17:28
And I'm going to practice that in that, in that conversation
17:31
back and forth, like let the tension set, let it set within
17:35
me. And we're not going to be able
17:38
to, the three of us are not going to be able to go, Hey,
17:40
everybody, we've solved the tension for you.
17:43
So you're OK now we're not going to do that because our value is
17:47
to say, let the tension set until something emerges that is
17:53
a, a something bigger than than what we get come in with.
17:57
That's why I was saying to you, the back and forth between all
18:00
three of us has actually made us better.
18:02
Like I feel better about where we're going.
18:05
I feel better about how I'm seeing it.
18:09
It's expanded me personally. So it's not just about the the
18:12
product. Yeah, I'm changing through the
18:14
process. And to me that is most important
18:19
is that the three of us are growing through this process
18:23
because we're having the tension.
18:25
And that's a good definition for the word dialogue itself.
18:29
It's the process of the back and forth that creates something
18:33
even bigger, better, and transforms us in the process.
18:38
So Nigel, I, I so appreciate your awareness of your process
18:43
and how different it is than am I.
18:47
But also there's some similarities like I, because
18:52
when discomfort happens for me, when I, there's a discussion and
18:57
I feel like fundamentally disagree and I'm like, this is
19:00
so uncomfortable and awkward and this person isn't hearing me or
19:04
whatever. You're in that place where the
19:06
fear starts coming up, right? Like you mentioned that fear of
19:09
like, oh, oh, my heart immediately starts racing and my
19:14
first need that comes up is connection.
19:18
And I'm like, uh oh, this is going to sever connection.
19:21
So what I do is I fawn, I'm like appease, find the common ground
19:26
to the point where I lose my own beliefs even sometimes or I
19:32
won't. It's not that I lose them.
19:34
I, I quiet them, I make them, I mute them.
19:38
And I'm like, all right, that's not welcomed here.
19:41
I, I assume they're not welcomed here, which is my, I think what
19:45
I do wrongly is I assume they're not welcome.
19:47
I assume the other person can't handle the disagreement and I
19:51
just want peace or I want to find the connection before I
19:55
feel safe to be vulnerable to say something that might cause
19:59
friction. So I do that by trying to just
20:04
mute myself a piece. Find the common ground and just
20:06
play small. Play small and not really have
20:10
rich conversations. Sometimes I miss out on like
20:14
representing. Who I am and being present to
20:17
the conversation, you know, I'll sit in the back and I'll just
20:20
kind of like let it happen and like, OK, when is this over?
20:24
Like or, or whatever, you know, like to make it manageable in my
20:29
own heart and discomfort. But but it is like this.
20:36
It's a danger as well. It's not.
20:37
It's like a habit I'm trying to lean into about like, wait a
20:40
second, it's OK. My opinion is this person might
20:44
be able to handle it. And even if they are, if they
20:48
sever connection in the midst or they can't handle the the
20:51
disagreement, that doesn't make my opinion wrong.
20:55
It just means it didn't they didn't like it and that that's
21:00
OK. And maybe there's a way to kind
21:02
of figure it out. If there's somebody I do life
21:05
with, then of course I'm like, we got to figure this out.
21:07
Like because relationship matters more to me than than
21:11
agreement, But I also like, I don't want to lose myself in for
21:16
the sake of, of connection, right?
21:18
Like that, because then I don't really show up.
21:21
Then it's like this fabricated thing and and and then
21:24
relationship can become shallow instead of really deep and
21:28
challenging and growing, which is what we all want.
21:31
And and so, yeah, me learning to try like the challenge is
21:37
leaning in with my opinion, leaning in with like what my
21:40
thoughts are and feeling secure in in that to know like the
21:44
person can handle it. Like why do I think people are
21:47
so fragile? Why am I so afraid of them
21:49
freaking, which I, I kind of know it's connected to, like I'm
21:54
in therapy for that. So I, I, I have awareness of my
21:57
protectors to a degree, but but that's not, that doesn't need to
22:01
always show up in conversation, you know, like I can, I can show
22:04
up too you. Know and, and let me just pick
22:08
on other people for a second here, 'cause I think you were
22:11
like, well, can other people? Can they?
22:13
They can handle it. Well, a lot of people actually
22:15
can't. A lot of people do have a hard
22:17
time with disagreement. And that's why we're really
22:20
intentionally leading into this practice and, and in doing this
22:24
in life and being aware of, of how we react to different
22:27
circumstances like this. If you just go online for seven
22:30
seconds and look at how people handle opposing thoughts and
22:34
opposing viewpoints and opposing cultural things and political
22:37
things, it's a dumpster fire mess that that's a loud
22:44
subsection of people. Maybe not all of humanity is
22:47
like that, but with the rise of social media, does seem like a
22:50
lot of people out there do have a hard time with disagreements.
22:53
So we have to learn as all of us here that are listening,
22:57
watching and and following our conversations here, we have to
22:59
learn how to interact with a life and an online culture and a
23:05
political and religious culture that really does a lot.
23:09
A lot of people unfortunately, do have a very hard time if you
23:12
disagree with them or you're not part of their denomination or
23:15
their movement. That's that's just that does
23:17
happen a lot. But what relationship for me and
23:20
for us and for hopefully a lot of people out there, it is the
23:24
stronger guiding force and that's worth pushing through
23:30
some of those difficult feelings that we're describing.
23:32
I, I feel I have different feelings and even you 2.
23:34
So this is no surprise that probably everybody listening is
23:37
going to have a slightly different way they handle these
23:39
situations. I don't know, I haven't really
23:42
thought too much how I 'cause I'm not as in tune to my body
23:44
and my emotions, 'cause I typically view emotions as
23:48
mostly a negative thing to be avoided at all costs.
23:50
But I laugh, I laugh so people know ha ha, ha, I'm joking.
23:55
That's but it's kind of true. I do deal with a lot of those
23:59
situations probably with humor. Can I make this person laugh?
24:02
Can I find, can we laugh together?
24:05
That's going to be a huge connection point for me.
24:07
That's going to be building tremendous relational bridges.
24:11
Can we, what can we focus on that that we do like and agree?
24:14
What was food? Is it sports?
24:16
Is it ATV show? I have a tremendous value in
24:20
trying to find connections with people.
24:22
I fortunately or unfortunately, I guess depending on how you
24:26
view my friends, but most of my friends I've been friends with
24:29
for like a very long time, like 20-30 years.
24:34
I love maintaining long term relationships.
24:37
I try to maintain good relationships with all these
24:40
people I've known throughout my life.
24:41
My family, different bosses, different movements, some part
24:45
of I try to maintain long term relationships.
24:47
I like that. And my friends, at one point we
24:50
had a very, very similar cultural, religious, political
24:56
outlook. Like we were all very simpatico,
24:58
like very cut from the same cloth.
25:01
Over the past 20 to 30 years, no surprise, culture shifted,
25:05
people's views have shifted to deconstructions happened.
25:08
The political world's gone haywire.
25:10
I have very, very different views than yeah, so many of my
25:16
friends, like we're all so different now.
25:18
We are very, very good friends because we value the friendship.
25:24
We value the connection points more than where we could
25:26
disagree. Now, if our focus was just
25:28
trying to convince each other that we're right or I'm not
25:31
going to platform you or your views, I'm not going to, you
25:35
know, then it wouldn't work. But there's something more than
25:38
just us having to agree, having to go to the same Bible study,
25:42
having to vote the exact same way, that there's something more
25:46
than all that. That's important, but it takes
25:49
acknowledging that you're going to.
25:51
You're willing to fight for relationships.
25:52
You're willing to fight for connection with people you know.
25:55
So, and this is where I'd like to see this move even further is
25:59
that we go from, yeah, we can hang out with different because
26:04
there's a lot of people who I watch this at the, the gym that
26:09
I go to that disagree on politics, disagree on a lot of
26:12
things, but they hang out and, and they have a mutual point of
26:17
connection. But where is that place of where
26:20
this, this growth happening and you're, you're moving beyond
26:25
just, hey, we get along, have a great time together, but there's
26:30
this transformation that's taking place.
26:32
And this is my hope for merging wisdom is that we can do that so
26:36
that we go past the fear of disagreement and, and pass the
26:43
fear of losing our views or our positions or whatever else.
26:48
And everyone of us is going to have a different thing, as
26:50
Serena mentioned, very different than mine.
26:52
Like can we move through that with it?
26:56
We bring it with us because you can't just not have it.
26:59
You bring it with it, but you enter in and you say, how can I
27:01
grow? How can I even be?
27:04
Wow. I didn't see that about my own
27:07
view and my own position or my own feelings about things I'm
27:11
changing as a result of this. And that's what I hope for is
27:15
that we can do this thing of building bridges, but then even
27:19
move further and actually begin to mutually transform each
27:24
other. Like I think in the dialogue, in
27:27
the disagreements that can happen.
27:30
So I'm actually looking forward to testing this because this is
27:33
a like right now this is I'm leaning into it.
27:36
I've been trying it but this is the next level up for me I
27:39
think. Yeah, it's because it's a
27:41
challenge. There's a challenge aspect to
27:43
it. Where can we, we're going to be
27:45
trying to pull threads of wisdom, right?
27:47
That as good host and good stewards of this platform, Like
27:50
I think that's something we've talked about, like where, what
27:53
threads of wisdom can we pull out of this person?
27:56
And I remember Joel, I was like, if we had this political person
28:00
on and then like the opposite political person and then the
28:02
opposite, like, I'm totally cool with that.
28:04
Again, there maybe that's my sick entertainment thing coming
28:07
up again, but it's like, I'm really genuinely like, what,
28:11
what bridge can we build with this person?
28:13
And then the person that is the opposite of that.
28:16
Is there any thread of wisdom? And if you say, no, I can only
28:20
extract wisdom from the person that I vote for, the person I
28:24
like on TV, the, the, my pastor at my church, my religious view,
28:30
that's a limiting world view. And I don't think it's super
28:34
helpful. Obviously you're going to find a
28:35
lot more life and wisdom and, and growth out of the people
28:40
that all think like you and, and believe like you.
28:42
And that's, and that's great. There's nothing wrong with
28:44
having your beliefs and your convictions.
28:46
But if you limit it at a point where you go only my
28:48
denomination, that's too far for me.
28:51
And, and maybe here's another thing too, just to keep harping
28:56
on this. We'll have people on like you're
28:57
talking about. We'll try to pull threads of
29:00
wisdom. Maybe.
29:01
Maybe there's nothing there to take home.
29:03
That's OK too. Maybe.
29:04
Maybe it crashes and burns? It could crash and burn and and
29:08
that's OK, but again, I don't want to.
29:10
Set. At least you were nice, or at
29:12
least you got into some huge, huge fight that goes viral.
29:15
That could be awesome too. That could get us some clicks,
29:19
but yeah, because. That's what we're about for
29:20
sure. Yeah, we're about Click.
29:22
Bait. I'm going to.
29:22
Intentionally start fights with these people.
29:26
No, but we're going to try to pull Freds it again.
29:28
It's not up to us to have the final say.
29:30
Us as a community, as people, you know, journeying together
29:34
are going to figure out if that was useful or wise to them.
29:37
Maybe it wasn't to us, maybe it is to you.
29:39
Great. Like that's journey together
29:41
with that and see where it goes. Yeah, we're not always going to
29:44
tell the people that, hey, you know what?
29:46
You, you know, we're going to, we're going to throw our idea
29:48
and you know, against yours. We're not going to always do
29:51
that in podcasts just because it's not.
29:53
She's just the person we've invited on.
29:55
That's not what they're coming on here for.
29:57
We're more or less like, let's interview you on this particular
30:00
topic, right? So we hope you understand that.
30:03
Like we're not, we're not just going to do that, but we are
30:06
going to have some podcasts where we actually do that very
30:09
thing. It could be after the fact as we
30:12
debrief, it could be in the moment depending on the the
30:14
person and how how it's going. But yeah, our goal is not to
30:17
have gotcha moments and have debates and disagreements.
30:20
Our goal, I mean shameless plug from the website and, and what
30:24
we've kind of written down, it's emerging wisdom as a podcast
30:28
exploring faith, psychology, culture, history, politics, and
30:32
what it means to live wisely in a complex world.
30:35
And then a second thought to that and a really important one.
30:38
I think that really encapsulates a lot of what we're doing and to
30:41
believe in. It says no single field
30:45
tradition or point of view has a monopoly on wisdom.
30:49
Merging wisdom follows the questions that matter across the
30:53
boundaries that usually keep our conversations apart.
30:58
Those kind of those two lines, they're kind of encapsulate the
31:01
general thing we're going for. We're trying to follow in all
31:05
these fields, these disciplines, these people that have expertise
31:09
in certain backgrounds. We're, we're trying to follow
31:13
and seek out the wisdom wherever that might be found.
31:16
Maybe like we're saying, sometimes it's not abundantly
31:18
found, but there if there's something there, that's more
31:21
what we're trying to extract as opposed to being truth seekers
31:25
or heresy hunters. We got to sniff out the false
31:28
and own and expose the truth and expose the false and we'll show
31:31
people what's right and be the final voice.
31:34
That's not really what we're doing.
31:37
You know, there's some popular Youtubers right now on, on stuff
31:41
that's happening in the Christian world and, and it's
31:43
like exposing. So these are the ones that
31:45
exposed and I've and, and I love a lot of what's happening there.
31:50
But there are times where it's like this view is wrong, this
31:53
doctrine is wrong. This is, and I think you didn't
31:56
really hear what the other person on the other side is
31:59
saying. And to me that's a loss like
32:02
when you don't really listen well to what is being conveyed
32:05
by the other side. We need to really strongman
32:09
other people's views rather than straw man them.
32:11
And that stuff to me just turns me right off when I'm like, you
32:16
did not listen at all to what they were trying to convey or
32:20
you don't understand their position, their worldview,
32:23
their, their tradition. You don't understand any of that
32:26
stuff. You, you think you do and you're
32:28
coming at it with like point by point, this is wrong, this is
32:32
wrong, this is wrong. And I understand those go viral.
32:36
I get it. But we've had this conversation.
32:39
I'm not interested in going viral.
32:41
I'd love it. Yes, it's great, but I'm not
32:43
that's not my goal and that's not our goal.
32:45
Our goal is really, let's pursue wisdom as much as we can because
32:49
that tends to bring a whole lot more good fruit in our lives.
32:53
I mean, I, it has for me, I want to continue on that path.
32:57
So anyways, I just want to like that to me is a distinct
33:01
difference is what we're trying to do versus like what you were
33:03
saying they're wrong, that person's wrong.
33:06
You know the truth is found here.
33:09
That got me thinking about something I wanted to bring up.
33:11
We're in the very early stage stages of launching this, but
33:14
I've already seen this happening on a microcosmic level and I
33:17
can't anticipate this happening and, and seeing this more as our
33:22
audience grows and our catalog grows.
33:25
The comments even and the the great discussions and the
33:28
vibrant discussions that are already happening after only
33:30
just a couple episodes. Don't come jump to conclusions
33:34
as to what you think our beliefs are.
33:36
Try to listen to the people we have on a little bit.
33:39
Try to listen to where we're coming from because already some
33:41
of the comments are like, So what you're saying is this, and
33:44
it's like you're jumping to a conclusion.
33:46
I was, we were never making you're making assumptions off
33:49
what the people we've had on are saying and make sure you're
33:52
listening. This is talking to all of us
33:54
here. Make sure we're listening to
33:56
what people are saying in front of us instead of just being
33:58
very, very quick to jump in with your assumptions.
34:02
Let me let me give a little wisdom tip from Scott Adams, who
34:07
I've mentioned before and I'll probably mention many times
34:09
because I love following him. He passed away this year,
34:11
unfortunately. Here's you.
34:13
You might like this one, Joel. This has been very helpful.
34:15
He came up with this technique, the SO technique, if you're ever
34:19
in a discussion or online or with somebody wherever and they
34:23
go and you say something, they go.
34:25
So what you're saying is pretty much you can ignore anything
34:29
they say after the. After that part.
34:31
They're going to misinterpret, they are going to straw man,
34:35
they are going to completely give a fanciful, cartoonish
34:40
version of what you're saying. You could present your
34:43
testimony, your belief of God, and they're going to go.
34:45
So what you're saying is you believe in the spaghetti monster
34:48
who lives in the sky or whatever it is.
34:49
You know, here's my political thing.
34:52
So what you're saying is you hate kids.
34:53
You know, it's like whatever people say after.
34:56
So that should be a trigger for you.
34:58
So thanks God Adams for that. Be careful not to do that to
35:02
others. Be careful not to do that in the
35:03
conversations we're having where you're not trying to understand
35:08
these conversations that are happening.
35:10
I think that's just something to be mentioned.
35:11
No offense, Dan, but yeah. So I thought you were gonna
35:16
disagree with me, which I was like, yes, let's go, let's go
35:19
viral. Well, no.
35:20
You know, you know how they say that, like it the moment someone
35:22
says, you know, with all due respect, yeah, you know what's
35:27
coming next. You know what's coming next?
35:29
Yeah. The, the so 1 is a little more
35:32
sneaky because they're, they're trying to like, be like.
35:34
So what you're saying is it's like, no, of course that's not
35:37
what I'm saying. And if you believe that's what
35:38
I'm saying, then you believe I'm an insane person.
35:40
So what's going on here? Yeah, I know.
35:44
It reminds me of like being able to cultivate the discipline of
35:51
listening and like how listening is really a discipline.
35:55
Like it is not, I think our natural instinct to listen,
36:01
we're constantly trying to think of what we're going to say next.
36:05
And so we're not super present to like what's actually being
36:07
said. And listening is so much more
36:09
than just like audio, like it's much more than just the
36:13
language. It's, it's the intuiting of of
36:17
the person's essence. It's the it's giving them the
36:20
benefit of the doubt in a way that is like trying to see them
36:25
as a whole person and not just take a single statement, a clip,
36:30
a you know, we love the clips. We love the little short, like
36:34
things that are taken out of context, you know, and just
36:38
taking it at face value and being like, Oh my God, they said
36:41
that thing. And it's like, that's again,
36:43
just more clickbait. And I mean, my hope is to really
36:47
in presenting different voices and different expertise and, and
36:52
wisdom thoughts is to enable ourselves to tune into what
36:59
resonates, like as we listen, as we really take it in, as we are
37:03
genuinely present to what is being shared.
37:08
And again, not trying to take it all as like as scripture and be
37:14
like, this is the word of, of truth.
37:16
And we take everything that every guest says as like law.
37:19
It's like that's just silliness, you know, or, or what we often
37:24
do or in our culture of just like being loyal to a certain
37:28
camp of things, the belief system of political party, even
37:34
an idle person in your life that you just admire.
37:37
We can sometimes like put people and part and like groups and
37:41
belief systems into these like pedestals.
37:44
That's true are not helpful because then our minds have to
37:49
do like acrobatics to make anything they say good.
37:54
Anything they say true, anything they say is beautiful, even
37:58
though it's like blatantly like destructive or like what like
38:02
that's right. But that's why it's like to to
38:04
be loyal to A to a person or a sister or like a belief, like
38:09
thought is like it's so risky. It doesn't require any
38:13
thoughtfulness. It doesn't require any wisdom on
38:17
our own part of taking responsibility for wait a
38:20
second. I can still I'm not afraid of
38:22
listening to all the different parties and stuff, but like I'm
38:25
not going to sign up to be like a blind follower.
38:29
Like what do I actually believe? What is actually resonating with
38:34
what is true, with what is good and what is beautiful in like
38:40
making it feel whole and worthwhile to cultivate in
38:45
myself to hold on to as like this thought challenged my my
38:51
normal thinking, but I'm going to chew on this.
38:53
I'm going to hold on to it, you know, take time with it.
38:55
Like why are we in such a rush? Because there's so much
38:59
information out there. There's such a rush to like
39:01
consume, consume, consume. Get it all.
39:02
Figure out what you believe. And then like say it all very
39:05
clearly and concisely. And if you don't communicate
39:08
perfectly like you're on a chopping block or something, you
39:12
know, it's like too much exposure.
39:14
It's like we got to give grace for people to be in process and
39:17
to like get it. Like I'm not even, I don't even
39:20
want to say get it wrong. Just just to like try to fumble,
39:24
learning to walk to fumble, learning a new skill of trying
39:28
to play like the piano. You're going to sound like crap
39:31
in the beginning, but keep going because you're going to
39:34
eventually sound great if you keep going.
39:37
And so that's what yeah, like I hope people are able to do is
39:41
like we can offer is like that, that an outlet for dis, like
39:45
growing in the discipline of listening and cultivating wisdom
39:49
within ourselves that we have that gift to tune into.
39:53
I like what you said about not being scared, like what are we
39:55
scared of? What are we scared of?
39:56
If you're cousin comes over that thinks differently than you,
40:00
what are you scared of by being around your Co worker that
40:02
thinks differently than you? What are you scared of listening
40:06
to somebody that might be on a podcast like Merging Wisdom that
40:08
thinks differently of you. We shouldn't be scared.
40:12
I get why like I'm like why? What what's the reason?
40:15
No, I get it. They're they think different.
40:17
They have different belief system.
40:18
They say things you don't like. If it's really not good,
40:22
beautiful, and true, then it should affirm your own current
40:26
belief system. Don't be scared.
40:28
It should help affirm what you already believe.
40:30
Maybe though, there's some stuff that you wouldn't naturally be
40:34
around a person, a personality that you have something to glean
40:40
from. And we shouldn't be so quick to
40:42
be so judgmental that I already know, right?
40:45
Stay curious, stay open. And again, if, if it's, if it's
40:51
completely not valid or not useful, you don't have to take
40:55
it with you. Nobody's making you believe
40:57
anything. But what I would be more scared
41:00
of than being around people in your life or online that you
41:04
disagree with is you putting up boundaries and walls and us just
41:08
isolating ourselves into, I have it all figured out, me and my
41:13
very niche group of people, and that's about it.
41:16
You know, like, I don't want to live there.
41:19
Yeah, so much goodness in there. I am super excited though, I
41:24
have to say I, I don't like those projects that I, that I
41:28
undertake that I'm like really happy about.
41:30
And then there are ones that are just like this one feels good on
41:33
every front, and this is one of them.
41:36
I love that we're doing this. I love even that the name was an
41:41
accident we had started with emerging.
41:45
Wisdom, right? That was, which you can probably
41:47
catch on the first couple episodes.
41:49
I had to edit out the E on our introductions.
41:53
That's great. It's funny because it's like
41:55
we'd already started and then, you know, I'm super excited
41:59
about it and I'm on vacation and I share it with some some folks
42:03
that that I see every year we do.
42:06
We go to the same sort of camp and hang out and and so then
42:12
he's like, oh, that's really cool.
42:13
I'm excited. I want to listen to this.
42:14
And so then the next day he comes to me and he says, so yes,
42:19
yeah. Talking to my girlfriend about
42:21
it. And I told her, you guys have
42:23
this podcast called merging Wisdom.
42:27
And I was like, oh, cool. Except it's it's emerging
42:32
wisdom. But that's something in me was
42:34
like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I like the Snave even better,
42:37
like right. And so then I reached Jeffy.
42:41
And so then I reached out to you 2.
42:43
Do you remember when I like called you back or Marco pulled
42:45
you back So excited because because it clicked when it's
42:48
like we had we're kind of fishing for like the the real
42:52
like seed that was going to grow from the the concept of it and
42:56
it wasn't fully clicking yet. We tried a couple early episodes
43:00
merging wisdom from my point of view and our point of view.
43:05
That's when it clicked. Oh, all these different voices,
43:08
people of different various backgrounds and, and expert
43:11
pieces and walks of life merging together.
43:15
And we're going to try to extract and find and navigate
43:18
through all those voices and find wisdom.
43:20
And just with the three of us too, we're going to merge our
43:23
collective voices together and the people that are going to
43:25
join our conversation online, like, wow, we're all merging
43:28
together to find wisdom and pursue that.
43:30
That is exciting. That's a really cool endeavour.
43:34
It's cool that it's an accident too.
43:35
It's like, because it's like these are the reforming this
43:40
even in the name. It's formed not in a silo.
43:44
It's not formed in, You know me imposing that on anyone, right?
43:50
It was like, oh, wait, this is an interesting accident.
43:55
And if we pay attention to it, this is sort of like things that
44:00
evolve, that form, that shape are oftentimes not the sort of
44:05
like hyper focused, this is what I'm doing, but in the dialogue
44:09
with other people. Yeah, and things.
44:11
That came out of relationship, that came out of conversation.
44:14
And that's hopefully what's going to be happening more and
44:16
more is, oh, wow, that that idea, that concept, that spark,
44:19
that new friendship connection viewpoint, it's going to come
44:22
out sometimes accidentally, like, I don't even know why
44:25
we're having this person on, but boy, that was really cool.
44:27
Or I don't know why I bought this book, but it's actually
44:30
really cool. And it made me think about all
44:31
these great things. Or I learned something about
44:33
myself or about other people. So, and we're going to be having
44:36
like, keep saying, like people of different backgrounds, they
44:39
might not be of the same faith background, or maybe it's
44:44
sometimes without faith, but they have something to offer
44:46
because they have lived experience in this world.
44:49
Maybe they're from the the medical world.
44:51
Maybe they're an, an author that has something really valuable to
44:54
say. We're the ones that that have
44:57
our perspectives, the three of us, and we have our viewpoints
45:00
and all that. And we're going to be pulling on
45:01
these people as we can and incorporating them into what
45:05
we're doing. But these people are coming in
45:07
just to join us for a moment, see what we can experience with
45:11
them. And then they go.
45:12
And that is a that is a risky, scary, stupid thing to do if
45:20
you're trying to control a narrative.
45:22
But we're not trying to tightly control a narrative like we
45:24
stumbled into the name. We're going to stumble through
45:27
these conversations sometimes and maybe look stupid me mostly
45:32
in the process. But we're going to have a
45:34
hopefully a good time, learn, grow, blast and have a great
45:38
conversation with people. In the meantime, let me say one
45:42
last thing too, from my point of view.
45:43
And then you guys, if you have anything else, even me, if
45:47
you've listened to a couple episodes, I've brought up my
45:50
Mormon history project. We had the great John Turner on
45:53
talking about Joseph Smith and his biography.
45:55
And I'm going to bring up my interactions with the the Mormon
46:00
history project and the the Mormon stuff from time to time
46:03
already. Some of what's happened in some
46:05
of the interactions, though, is people project that because I'm
46:09
not a believing member of the LDS church, I am against and I
46:14
I'm trying to fight, I'm trying to debate or I'm trying to prove
46:17
them wrong. That's not my intent with any of
46:19
that. I welcome people of the of the
46:22
LDS Church, come join, follow with my conversations.
46:26
I'm very interested in the history of, of the Mormon Church
46:29
of Joseph Smith. And it's not so that I can
46:31
annihilate you in a debate or prove why you're wrong and I'm
46:35
right. I'm here to to learn to grow
46:38
and, and if you hear stuff on our podcast that you agree with
46:42
or disagree with, write us, put it in the comments.
46:44
Let's talk. But I love Mormons.
46:48
I do not believe in Mormonism. I'm not a I'm not a Mormon, but
46:52
I, I love the Mormon community. I love people of the, the
46:55
various, you know, Christian denominations, Protestant and
46:58
Catholic and, and, and all this and I'm learning, I'm growing,
47:01
I'm, I happen to be interested in this kind of, you know,
47:04
subset topic of, of the, the, you know, religious expression
47:08
called, you know, the LDS church in Mormonism.
47:11
But it's not an against move. It's just a fascination.
47:15
And please everybody who wants to join us for the conversation
47:20
and don't think that we're trying to attack people here.
47:23
Yeah, Serena, you, you popped, you kind of like lit up when I
47:26
said something about the, you know, that this even the name
47:29
was formed in dialogue and collaboration, which is
47:33
something that was coming up for you.
47:36
Yes, I just love the that point about and I think it's proven to
47:42
be so accurate in my life that often times the most profound
47:46
moments are those subtle things that we can easily miss.
47:51
It's those those happenstance things, those quick moments
47:56
where a thought is challenged or a belief is affirm that you've
48:00
had but you never voiced and it and it happens in relationship.
48:04
It happens in interactions, but it's subtle.
48:07
And when we're soft to it, I really do think that the, the
48:11
evidence of it will prove to to cause fruit, to cause good fruit
48:17
in our lives if we allow it to come into soft soil in our
48:20
hearts, if we're open to it, right.
48:21
Like, but they're seeds. They really are seeds and
48:24
they're so easy to miss. And and it was just, it's just,
48:27
I love that you pointed out that our name even came from a like
48:32
just a relational happenstance conversation that that you could
48:37
have easily overlooked and just not even told Dan and I about
48:40
it. And we wouldn't have been like,
48:41
what, wait a second. But like, it's sometimes it's so
48:44
often those things that we're quickly to dismiss that have
48:48
wisdom in it because there's, there is something beyond us
48:51
that is just kind of like nodding at us, you know, like,
48:56
and I love that and I love the evidence of that.
48:58
And when we, when we partner with it, it is, it's just so
49:03
profound. I really, it almost like brings
49:05
me to tears because it is just like it's, I can't do it on my
49:08
own. I can't conjure it up on my own.
49:11
I have to trust in it. But but I can tune into it.
49:14
I can listen for it. And then when I do, it's like,
49:17
wow, this is way more than I could have done on my own.
49:21
And what a gift, like what a gift wisdom is.
49:24
It really is a gift. And and I and I, and that's part
49:28
of what I think, you know, all three of us are excited about is
49:32
like what a gift to get to lean into this and these
49:36
conversations and seek out those, those seeds and see what
49:40
fruit comes. And not just in our own lives,
49:43
but but for the our our listening community, hopefully.
49:48
And those that might TuneIn for a season and tune out for others
49:51
or whatever, you know, that might only catch us for one
49:54
episode because they love the guests that we have.
49:57
And that's fine. You know, like I think that's
50:00
fine. But but it's a gift, you know,
50:03
like it, it's just, it's really, it's profound.
50:06
It it feels like, it feels like holy work, like it really does.
50:09
It does feel like holy work. There's you, you say things
50:12
sometimes I think you think like it's, it's whatever because
50:15
you're always playing. Like you said, you play, you can
50:17
play small. You have such profundity to some
50:20
of the things you say that I'm like that word nails it.
50:23
Like you said, the softness that is exactly right.
50:28
I can feel it when I'm in a good soft place of receptivity.
50:33
Then stuff like that just naturally happens and I'm like,
50:35
oh, merging, Oh, no, we should think about that, right.
50:39
But if I wasn't in a soft place and I was sort of like just, I'm
50:43
just aiming at something or I've just got my focus and my intent.
50:46
I'm I'm that would, I would have dismissed that.
50:49
I would never have even thought twice about it.
50:51
And we would have gone, gone on. And then when you talked about
50:55
the emotion and I felt your emotion come through in a
50:59
beautiful way of like this is what happens when there's
51:02
something more transcendent in the dialogue, in the exchange.
51:07
I'm a huge believer that that's the experience of of the divine.
51:12
That's the experience of God in the midst of all of that.
51:15
I think when I'm solo, I don't feel it as much.
51:20
I can get inspiration, I get ideas, but it's it's in the
51:24
exchange with humanity that something happens.
51:28
When I'm in that soft place, that receptive place, as well as
51:31
putting myself out there. I'm not hiding back by going
51:34
everybody just welcome everybody and everybody's ideas.
51:37
When I'm engaged, then something transcendent takes place.
51:42
And I think the way you articulated that just really
51:47
spot on. So that captures, I think so
51:52
much. All of this that we've talked
51:54
about really captures our hearts behind and our minds behind.
51:57
What are we trying to do here? Thanks for catching that little
52:00
twinkly saw because I would have just bypassed me like, oh, I
52:04
missed the moment, you know? This, this shows the strength of
52:06
the three of us. Because when she started crying
52:08
as the, as the editor of the podcast, I'm thinking, well,
52:11
I'll, I'll edit this out. That's fine.
52:12
The emotions that that's got to go.
52:14
But Joel, damn, you're, you're in tune.
52:19
You got, you got, you're so in tune.
52:20
And so I'm learning here. I love it.
52:22
This is why we need to be together.
52:25
Yeah. It's like oh this is schedule
52:27
edit today they. Clip this out that you're trying
52:29
to get rid of your wife. Just say.
52:31
No, no, just the emotions. Just.
52:35
Yeah, I'll take my wife without the emotions.
52:37
That's great. Hey, Joel, I'm a real Type 7
52:40
here, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
52:43
You might call it an unredeemed type 7, but I'm I'm leaning in
52:47
it's. Just going on, you've definitely
52:50
thrown your whole lot into that one.
52:52
It's like, that's it. Just keep it upbeat.
52:55
There's also importance of like, there is such wisdom and humor.
52:59
Like, we can't take ourselves too seriously, right?
53:02
Like. This is great.
53:03
This is exactly how we should be.
53:05
I think we're going to be real. I want us to be real.
53:10
You know, I've been confined by by a sort of a performance that
53:13
I was trained in that's a religious kind of performance.
53:17
Like be serious, be, you know, whatever.
53:22
And, you know, that stuff doesn't really work and it
53:25
doesn't. Yeah, it's not real.
53:28
So I love our being authentic about where we are, what our
53:33
thoughts are about things. But as well as you know, as
53:36
we've said, like that, our value in and our ideal and what we
53:41
want to do is merging wisdom, which is let's continue to bring
53:44
the streams together. Let's be disrupted in the
53:47
process. Let's see if we can hold the
53:49
tension. Let's see if we can learn
53:51
through dialogue, something will transcend.
53:53
It will bring us further and deeper and, and, and grow us.
53:57
So all of this stuff was so good.
53:59
I think this would be a great place for us to go.
54:03
Let's let's pause here and more to come.
54:06
Merging Wisdom.