Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / PICTURE-PERFECT MOM BLAMES "VACCINES" FOR TOT-TWINS DEATHS, NOW PRIME MURDER SUSPECT

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PICTURE-PERFECT MOM BLAMES "VACCINES" FOR TOT-TWINS DEATHS, NOW PRIME MURDER SUSPECT · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Tonight, a picture perfect mother is blaming vaccines, routine vaccines,
0:08
Speaker 1: for the deaths of her taught twins. That's right, two
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Speaker 1: twins dead, blue in the face. Mommy is blaming vaccines. Oh,
0:21
Speaker 1: by the way, mommy, now a prime murder suspect. Good evening,
0:26
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
0:29
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
0:37
Speaker 2: Eighteen month old twins Tyson and Dallas Shaw are healthy,
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Speaker 2: happy babies until they receive their annual vaccinations. Their mother, Andrea, says,
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Speaker 2: their health begins to decline rapidly. Shortly afterward. The twins
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Speaker 2: later die. Now one year after their deaths, investigators are
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Speaker 2: focusing on their mother as the prime suspect.
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Speaker 3: Officers were dispatched to the thirteen hundred block of North
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Speaker 3: ninth Street regarding a possibly deceased child. Upon arrival, the
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Speaker 3: officers actually discovered that there were two deceased children in
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Speaker 3: a shared bed. This is a heartbreaking case that affects
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Speaker 3: the entire community. Obviously, it's it's extremely unusual for two
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Speaker 3: infants to be found deceased and be believed to have
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Speaker 3: passed at the same time.
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Speaker 1: From our forensic k I v I and as you
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Speaker 1: legal eagles know there is rarely a coincidence in criminal
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Speaker 1: law to babies die at the same time after medical
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Speaker 1: complications allegedly from vaccines with us an all star panel,
1:42
Speaker 1: but straight out to Vanessa Walts, you know her well.
1:44
Speaker 1: She is a star of unmasked true crime and shot
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Speaker 1: to the consciousness of our nation in the Lynette Hooker
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Speaker 1: Overboard case. Vanessa, thank you for being with us. Vanessa,
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Speaker 1: what happened? What do we know.
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Speaker 4: So, Nancy? This case really has two competing stories.
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Speaker 5: Andrew Shaw says that her eighteen month old twins, Dallas
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Speaker 5: and Tyson went became severely ill after going in for
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Speaker 5: their routine vaccines, including a flu vaccine, on April twenty
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Speaker 5: third of twenty twenty five. They were taken to the
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Speaker 5: yard the next day and then, of course, tragically on
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Speaker 5: me first, about a week later, they were both found
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Speaker 5: dead in their shared beads.
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Speaker 1: Why why why why wait? Why why wait? Vanessa Walch,
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Speaker 1: who found the babies dead.
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Speaker 4: Well, Andrew claims on the podcast that she did.
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Speaker 5: That she went in, that she had peeped in on
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Speaker 5: them earlier in the morning, and that she figured that
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Speaker 5: they were just sleeping in because they had been ill.
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Speaker 4: She said that when she went in that she noticed.
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Speaker 5: That they were very still, that they were actually cold
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Speaker 5: to the touch, that she turned Tyson.
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Speaker 4: Over and tried to shake him awake.
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Speaker 5: After she couldn't wake him, she called nine one one
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Speaker 5: and then went back into the room and tried to
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Speaker 5: wake Dallas, but noticed that she was in the exact
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Speaker 5: same condition as Tyson and that they had both appeared
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Speaker 5: to be gone for a while.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so short answer of Vanessa walt Star up Unmasstery
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Speaker 1: Crime is that mommy found them dead. Now, that doesn't
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Speaker 1: mean as we all know. Straight out to Claudia King
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Speaker 1: joining us out of Durham, North Carolina, former law enforcement
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Speaker 1: domestic vio violence expert and host of two podcasts, One
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Speaker 1: No Contest and two Strong Enough, Claudia, just because you
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Speaker 1: find the body does not mean you had anything to
3:44
Speaker 1: do with the crime. But it is a starting point
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Speaker 1: for law enforcement, is it not?
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Speaker 6: It absolutely is, Nancy, And the fact that two were
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Speaker 6: found together dead is also what we would call a
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Speaker 6: clue that there might be something going on here nefarious,
4:01
Speaker 6: and that's where investigators would want to start.
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Speaker 1: Vanessa walt Star of Unmasked Truth Crime, did you tell
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Speaker 1: me that after the baby's death and their sleep, mommy
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Speaker 1: went on a podcast.
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Speaker 5: She did Nancy just days after she found the twins deceased,
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Speaker 5: Both her and her husband Nathaniel went on a podcast
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Speaker 5: for the Children's Health Defense. What I found really interesting
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Speaker 5: about the podcast is she gave a lot of detail
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Speaker 5: from the very beginning, from when they got their vaccines
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Speaker 5: right up until she found them both deceased in the bed.
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Speaker 1: What is Children's Health Defense Podcast?
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Speaker 7: What is that?
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Speaker 1: Vanessa?
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Speaker 8: So?
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Speaker 5: The Children's Health Defense Podcast is a nonprofit activist organization
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Speaker 5: that's known for its anti vaccine advocacy.
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Speaker 1: Oh okay, wait whoa wait, wait wait wait wait, So
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Speaker 1: to Franz Borchart joining us tonight. Veteran trial lawyer, criminal
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Speaker 1: defense attorney out of Baton Rouge. Never a lack of
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Speaker 1: business in the Baton Rouge Criminal Division. Founder of Borgcart's
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Speaker 1: law firm, former prosecutor. He's at Borgheartlaw Firm dot com. Franz,
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Speaker 1: don't you just hate it when your client goes onto
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Speaker 1: a podcast and gives a very detailed statement about what
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Speaker 1: happened when her twins, her babies are found dead. It's
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Speaker 1: not like it's some they're out on the street selling dope.
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Speaker 1: It's not like they did themselves harm. It's not a
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Speaker 1: drive by shooting. So mommy takes it upon herself to
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Speaker 1: speak out on a podcast. Some would say, absolving herself
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Speaker 1: of any neglect or wrongdoing. But out because now you're stuck.
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Speaker 1: You are stuck with that statement. Nothing you can do
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Speaker 1: about it, because isn't it true, Borkhart, that the constitution
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Speaker 1: protects us all from police or state wrongdoing? For instance,
6:15
Speaker 1: did the state beat her into a confession?
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Speaker 4: No?
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Speaker 1: Did they tricker, which actually is allowable under the constitution.
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Speaker 1: Did they coerce her? Did they offer her something a
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Speaker 1: reward or some tangible positive, some beneficial result in exchange
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Speaker 1: for talking. No, she sat in a chair and got
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Speaker 1: on a podcast all of her own. The state the
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Speaker 1: constitution does not protect you from your own blabbing. Isn't
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Speaker 1: that true?
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Speaker 9: Yep?
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Speaker 8: Those statements are all coming in. It's not an interrogation.
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Speaker 8: So I have to deal with the fact, if I'm
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Speaker 8: representing her, that all that garbage is coming in, and
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Speaker 8: the only way you can make lemonade out of that, Nancy,
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Speaker 8: is you've got to lean into the to the belief
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Speaker 8: that she was trying to figure out what happened to
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Speaker 8: her kids, and she believes that it was the vaccination
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Speaker 8: that caused it. But I would definitely prefer for her
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Speaker 8: to shut her mouth.
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Speaker 10: On that.
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Speaker 1: Shut your pie hole, lady. But sadly that cow is
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Speaker 1: out of the barn. Okay, this is what part of
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Speaker 1: what is just so long that I can't even play
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Speaker 1: it all what mommy said. And I find it very
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Speaker 1: interesting to doctor Leslie Dobson joining us, I'm about to
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Speaker 1: play mommy, give me a seck. Doctor Leslie Dobson is
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Speaker 1: a clinical and forensic psychologist. She's host of a brand
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Speaker 1: new iHeart podcast call Intentionally Disturbing. Okay, that's a good name,
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Speaker 1: author of the friend Cleanse and you can find her
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Speaker 1: a doctor Leslie Dobson. Doctor Leslie, thank you for being
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Speaker 1: with us tonight. I find it very interesting that instead
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Speaker 1: of speaking on any other platform or giving a supplemental
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Speaker 1: interview to police, speaking to her doctor, she goes on
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Speaker 1: too Children's Health Defense, which Vanessa Walsh has just told
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Speaker 1: us is an anti vax platform.
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Speaker 10: Correct. All of this is smelling very very funky.
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Speaker 11: This lady enjoyed attention, and she was not mourning the
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Speaker 11: loss of her babies that you know, if it's smelling fishy,
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Speaker 11: there's a fish somewhere.
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Speaker 1: Oh, I like that I had just written down. Let
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Speaker 1: me see Dobson, please, doctor Leslie Dobson, is this out
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Speaker 1: of the dsm smelling funky? Because I was expecting a
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Speaker 1: little bit more from you. I'm not laughing. I got
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Speaker 1: two dead bodies to figure out, and their babies and
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Speaker 1: their boy girl twins just like mine. And it'll be
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Speaker 1: a cold day in hell before I blame their ailment
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Speaker 1: on a vaccine. Okay, that said, could you expound a
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Speaker 1: little bit on your clinical diagnosis of smelling funky?
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Speaker 10: Well, we're still in the alleged phase.
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Speaker 11: But if we were looking at this and what we're
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Speaker 11: seeing publicly, we are seeing things similar to Munchausen's by
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Speaker 11: proxy factitious disorder. This is where individuals harm their children
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Speaker 11: to get attention, they get validated by medical staff and
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Speaker 11: individuals around them. And you know, six to ten percent
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Speaker 11: of mothers who do this to their children, who harm
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Speaker 11: them end up ending their lives six to ten percent.
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Speaker 11: So it's actually one of the most dangerous forms of
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Speaker 11: abuse towards children.
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Speaker 1: Guys, you're seeing shots of the tiny victims in this case,
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Speaker 1: Dallas and Tyson Shaw. You just mentioned something to Leslie Dobson.
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Speaker 1: I've never heard of factitious disorder. It sounds like you
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Speaker 1: got your facts wrong. Not you, but that the factitious
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Speaker 1: disorder means you've got your facts wrong and you're spinning
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Speaker 1: them to support your theory. I call that a lying ahole.
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Speaker 1: You seem to be calling it factitious disorder. What is
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Speaker 1: factitious disorder?
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Speaker 11: It's when we're fabricating things for a secondary gain, like attention.
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Speaker 10: And it doesn't mean we're insane.
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Speaker 11: It means we literally are willing to hurt people they
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Speaker 11: are seen as objects so that we can get something
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Speaker 11: for ourselves.
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Speaker 10: And in this case, it looks very, very extreme, like
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Speaker 10: the suffocation of babies.
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Speaker 1: I want to warn frontz Borghart joining us renown on
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Speaker 1: kriminal defense attorney out of Baton Rouge. Be careful what
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Speaker 1: you say, my dear, because I've got doctor Kendall Crown's
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Speaker 1: joining us, and he's going to be listening to you
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Speaker 1: rumpel Stiltskin as you spin out that moldy damp hay
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Speaker 1: into some defense attorney gold. Okay, I will call you
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Speaker 1: on it, But that said, your worst nightmare is coming true.
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Speaker 1: Here's mommy on a podcast.
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Speaker 12: When I went in there to wake them up. Is
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Speaker 12: when I found them.
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Speaker 10: The way they were.
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Speaker 13: Were the babies cold? Had they had they gone long before?
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Speaker 12: Yeah?
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Speaker 13: Both of them cold?
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Speaker 12: Yeah? And in the way I saw them, they looked
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Speaker 12: as if they had gone in their sleepy they were
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Speaker 12: in their sleeping positions. I think it's called reck and mortis.
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Speaker 12: They were. Their faces were in sleeping faces, right. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: That's from the Children's Health Defense podcast, And I just
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Speaker 1: learned a lot. Doctor Kendall Crown's joining me as promised
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Speaker 1: renowned chief medical Examiner ran County. That's not easy to
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Speaker 1: become the chief medical examiner over teams of other medical examiners,
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Speaker 1: all of them brilliant medical doctors. He is an esteemed
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Speaker 1: lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, and
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Speaker 1: he's the star of a hit podcast which I listen
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Speaker 1: to on Loop sometimes when I'm jogging Mayhem in the Morgue.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Kenda crowns, I want to talk to you about
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Speaker 1: what mommy just said. When I say mommy, I'm talking
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Speaker 1: about Andrea Shaw. Were the baby's cold? Yeah, she says,
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Speaker 1: both of them? Yeah. What does that tell me? In
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Speaker 1: am beyond temperature. In other words, let's just pretend it's
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Speaker 1: said sixty nine to seventy degrees room temp. They're cold.
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Speaker 1: That tells me a lot about the time of death,
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Speaker 1: doesn't it.
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Speaker 14: So time and death can be difficult to exact, you know,
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Speaker 14: drill down on because everybody goes through different stages at
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Speaker 14: different levels. With babies, that actually can be very difficult
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Speaker 14: because they have little body fat, little insulation. So the
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Speaker 14: fact that the children had equated to the surrounding temperatures
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Speaker 14: probably of the room and didn't feel warm anymore, it
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Speaker 14: gives you a window of they've probably been dead at
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Speaker 14: least an hour or so. They mentioned rigor mortis in there.
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Speaker 14: Usually rigamortis occurs in about two to six hours after death. Again,
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Speaker 14: it's going to be faster in babies because they have
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Speaker 14: less muscle mass, so you know, it can't give you
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Speaker 14: an exact timeframe, but the children had probably been dead
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Speaker 14: at least an hour or so.
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Speaker 1: What is rigor What is rigor mortis.
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Speaker 14: Rigamortis is the stiffening of the body as the body dies,
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Speaker 14: the muscle activity continues on and it uses up all
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Speaker 14: the reserves that are.
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Speaker 8: In the body.
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Speaker 14: So then it causes them muscles to end up in contraction.
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Speaker 14: Starts with the small muscles first like your jaws, your eyes,
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Speaker 14: going to the bigger muscles later arm leg, et cetera.
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Speaker 14: And it occurs over a timeframe of about two to
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Speaker 14: six hours for it to traditionally set in. Now with babies,
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Speaker 14: it's going to be faster because they have less muscle mass,
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Speaker 14: less reserves.
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Speaker 1: I noticed that she says they were in their sleeping positions,
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Speaker 1: as if they had gone to sleep. I can't tell
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Speaker 1: for sure yet if they were on their back, which
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Speaker 1: is where they're supposed to be, or if they had
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Speaker 1: turned over. They say their faces were in sleeping Their
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Speaker 1: faces were in quote, their faces were in sleeping faces right.
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Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. Their eyes were closed.
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Speaker 1: But here's mommy. Okay, uh Franz Borkharte, please stop sniveling
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Speaker 1: because mommy's still talking. Listen.
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Speaker 12: I had flipped over Tyson because I tried to shake
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Speaker 12: in awake and he did it. I ropped him over
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Speaker 12: and I saw him and immediately ran to the living
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Speaker 12: room to grab my phone and called nine one one,
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Speaker 12: and I went back into the room and sat on
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Speaker 12: their bed and then That's when I flipped Dallas over
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Speaker 12: and saw her the same.
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Speaker 1: Way, Vanessa Walsh joining us from Unmasked True Crime. This
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Speaker 1: sounds like she is sleeping in the same room with
15:23
Speaker 1: the children. Let's analyze what she says. I love parsing
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Speaker 1: suspects statements word by word. I could just do it
15:31
Speaker 1: all night long. I don't know if anybody noticed this,
15:33
Speaker 1: she says. I ran to the living room to grab
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Speaker 1: my phone and call nine one one. I went back
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Speaker 1: into the room and sat on my bed. That's when
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Speaker 1: I flipped Dallas over and saw her the same way.
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Speaker 1: Is she sleeping in the same bed with them? Are
15:51
Speaker 1: they co sleeping? Are they in a bassie beside her?
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Speaker 1: I mean I always slept practically every night in the
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Speaker 1: room with the twins at this age, but not in
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Speaker 1: the same bed with them, because pediatricians advise against that.
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Speaker 1: But I was in the room with them. Does this
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Speaker 1: mean they were in the same bed definitely the same room.
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Speaker 1: Would you agree with that, Vanessa?
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Speaker 4: Yes, And she does talk about the fact that they
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Speaker 4: do co sleep. She said that it helped.
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Speaker 5: Their twin bond. So they were in a shared bed
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Speaker 5: at the time that they passed away. So I took
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Speaker 5: that to be the same way that they were coo
16:29
Speaker 5: sleeping that I found it interesting when she said that
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Speaker 5: she peeped in on them once and then came back
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Speaker 5: later because it was it was eleven thirty am and
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Speaker 5: she was wondering why they had slept so late.
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Speaker 1: Reminder, Andrew Shaw, as we go to air tonight, is
16:46
Speaker 1: innocent under the law. This leads me back to Franz Boardcart,
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Speaker 1: veteran criminal defense attorney. Out of the Baton Rouge jurisdiction
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Speaker 1: that sounds from Children's Health Defense. Mommy chose to speak
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Speaker 1: out and give all the facts to the anti VAXX
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Speaker 1: podcast Children's Health Defense. I'm learning a lot. It sounds
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Speaker 1: like the children the babies were turned over on their
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Speaker 1: stomach and she had to flip them over to see
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Speaker 1: their faces. But wait a minute, she says earlier they
17:15
Speaker 1: looked as if they had gone in their sleep. They
17:18
Speaker 1: were in sleeping positions. I think it's called rigor mortis.
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Speaker 1: Their faces were in sleeping faces. So you know what's interesting, Franz,
17:27
Speaker 1: when you take a part her statement, that's a very
17:31
Speaker 1: important detail. Were they face down or were they face
17:35
Speaker 1: up when she first saw them? Because right now all
17:41
Speaker 1: these years later, I can still remember the last time
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Speaker 1: I saw my fiance alive before he was murdered. He
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Speaker 1: drove away and he held up his left hand out
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Speaker 1: of the steering out of the window of the car
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Speaker 1: driving with his right and waved at me as he
17:58
Speaker 1: drove away. I'll never forget it. I can see it
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Speaker 1: right now in my mind's high So, Mommy, where they
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Speaker 1: face down or face up? You don't have a problem
18:06
Speaker 1: with that. I guess you're gonna explain it away. Go ahead.
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Speaker 8: So she had just been through a huge trauma. Don't
18:14
Speaker 8: have to explain that trauma to you. And while I
18:17
Speaker 8: can't explain why she's on a podcast explaining what happened
18:21
Speaker 8: to a podcast, I would say that everything she's saying
18:25
Speaker 8: it has to be seen through the lens of trauma. Now,
18:28
Speaker 8: my bigger concern Nancy is Idaho is a death penalty Kate,
18:32
Speaker 8: a state that uses the firing squad. So what I'm
18:35
Speaker 8: really concerned about is not so much Gil. I'm not
18:38
Speaker 8: worried about Gil if I'm representing her. I'm worried about
18:41
Speaker 8: is there any kind of mitigation that I might be
18:44
Speaker 8: able to put forth that keeps this lady alive if
18:46
Speaker 8: the state pursues the death penalty.
18:49
Speaker 1: Borgharts. While you're at it, Can I get you to
18:51
Speaker 1: look at this photo? I think this is the baby girl.
18:54
Speaker 1: What happened there? Mark's on her face and potentially a
18:59
Speaker 1: bruise the right side of her neck under the ear.
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Speaker 8: It's paint all the time. Come on, come on, kids,
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Speaker 8: paint all the time. It could be paint.
19:08
Speaker 7: Kids.
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Speaker 1: Also put him up? Well do you even have children?
19:12
Speaker 1: Do you have children? Were you an absentee dad? Because
19:17
Speaker 1: a child that can't even stand up yet you're it's picasso.
19:23
Speaker 1: All that is red paint. Seriously, and notice there's none
19:26
Speaker 1: on the clothing.
19:28
Speaker 8: Push back on that. No man, no, ma'am. Kids even
19:32
Speaker 8: who they can't stand, never playing paint. They can also
19:36
Speaker 8: get hurt that It doesn't mean it's child. You're gonna
19:38
Speaker 8: need more than just supposition to get that in anyway.
19:41
Speaker 1: Hey, I didn't say it was child abuse. You said that.
19:47
Speaker 1: You said that, You said child Nancy Grace, That's what
19:52
Speaker 1: I was thinking. Now you're a mind reader.
19:54
Speaker 7: Love it.
19:55
Speaker 1: See this is where defense attorneys go when they have
19:57
Speaker 1: nowhere to go. But her defense attorney had to latch
20:01
Speaker 1: onto this theory. Take a listen.
20:04
Speaker 7: She believes that causes death to be the vaccine. She's
20:07
Speaker 7: not a doctor.
20:08
Speaker 9: I'm not a doctor, but the doctors I've consulted say
20:11
Speaker 9: that it's a vaccine related death. There's no way that
20:14
Speaker 9: this happened the way the prosecution has made it. See
20:17
Speaker 9: if a mom was intended to kill her kids, why
20:19
Speaker 9: would she be taking them to the doctor. You can
20:22
Speaker 9: die to cucumber because there's no defense attorney, there's no
20:25
Speaker 9: one's asking critical questions.
20:27
Speaker 7: They were looking at it being a vaccine death. And
20:30
Speaker 7: that's so what I believe it to be.
20:32
Speaker 8: You think it is, yeah, and what reasons do you have?
20:35
Speaker 8: Devloid that?
20:35
Speaker 7: Well, the medical experts I'm not a medical expert, but
20:38
Speaker 7: the medical excerpts I have go through a series of
20:41
Speaker 7: looking at when they had different complications.
20:45
Speaker 10: Really is that?
20:46
Speaker 2: So?
20:48
Speaker 1: That's from our forensic kiv I in k t B.
20:52
Speaker 1: The defense attorney taking to the earwaves to advance the
20:55
Speaker 1: defense theory, possibly tainting the jury pool. But you know what,
21:00
Speaker 1: go ahead, I'd be mad if you didn't. That Shaw's
21:04
Speaker 1: defense attorney Joe Felicity speaking out the reason he has
21:13
Speaker 1: grabbed the bone and is running with it because he's
21:18
Speaker 1: got nowhere else to go. Whose fault is that Mommy's
21:22
Speaker 1: fault because she goes on this anti vax podcast children
21:27
Speaker 1: Children's Health Defense and lays it out.
21:32
Speaker 13: Listen, your children at eighteen months will perfectly healthy, healthy,
21:37
Speaker 13: happy children and tell those three shots. Yes, yeah, that
21:42
Speaker 13: you warn the pediatrician not to give the flu shot
21:46
Speaker 13: because of your history of illnesses after it.
21:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's from the Children's Health Defense podcast. Reminder Andrew Shaw,
21:58
Speaker 1: as we go to air tonight is in a under
22:00
Speaker 1: the law.
22:03
Speaker 13: How were Dallas and Tyson on that day before they
22:06
Speaker 13: got those shots?
22:07
Speaker 1: Were they?
22:07
Speaker 12: Well, yeah, they were just as normal, perfect happy little babies.
22:11
Speaker 13: So they had these three shots, the hepe, the dechap
22:17
Speaker 13: and the flu shot despite your concerns, and you took
22:21
Speaker 13: them home and describe what happened after that.
22:24
Speaker 12: They were okay. I think they took a nap when
22:28
Speaker 12: we got home because they seemed tired. But for the
22:31
Speaker 12: rest of the evening it was business as usual.
22:34
Speaker 1: That is from Children's Health the Defense, and I want
22:36
Speaker 1: you to watch it one more time and observe mommy's
22:40
Speaker 1: non verbal communication.
22:43
Speaker 13: Your children at eighteen months were perfectly healthy, healthy, happy
22:48
Speaker 13: children until those three shots. Yes that you warn the
22:53
Speaker 13: pediatrician not to give the flu shot because of your
22:56
Speaker 13: history of illnesses after it. Yeah, how were Dallas Entyson
23:02
Speaker 13: on that day before they got those shots? Were they?
23:04
Speaker 15: Well?
23:05
Speaker 12: Yeah, they were just as normal, perfect happy little babies.
23:09
Speaker 13: So they had these sweet shots, the hepe, the dechap
23:15
Speaker 13: and the food shot despite your concerns, and you took
23:18
Speaker 13: them home and describe what happened after that.
23:22
Speaker 12: They were okay. I think they took a nap when
23:25
Speaker 12: we got home because they seemed tired. But for the
23:28
Speaker 12: rest of the evening it was business as usual.
23:32
Speaker 1: I am certainly no expert at non verbal communications. That's
23:36
Speaker 1: from Children's Health Defense too. Doutgor Leslie Dobson joining us tonight.
23:40
Speaker 1: If you look at what is happening, okay, the hand
23:44
Speaker 1: covering the face, the husband now supporting her during the
23:51
Speaker 1: critical moment of discussion about what caused the death by
23:56
Speaker 1: rubbing her back, supporting her. Now, keep watching doctor Leslie,
24:01
Speaker 1: because she gets to a point right there, looking away,
24:06
Speaker 1: looking away, which is very, very probative according to many
24:11
Speaker 1: many nonverbal expert nonverbal communication experts.
24:15
Speaker 11: Way in Doctor Leslie, correct, She's not mourning the loss
24:20
Speaker 11: of her children. She's lying, and we can see that
24:23
Speaker 11: through her covering her face, her biting her lip, she's
24:28
Speaker 11: using her eyebrows. Oddly, it's not in line with what
24:31
Speaker 11: she's actually talking about. And she certainly doesn't look sad
24:36
Speaker 11: that her children are gone. So I think it's this
24:39
Speaker 11: slow fabrication of a story. And she's already kind of
24:43
Speaker 11: screwed up what happened in her initial narrative. So now
24:47
Speaker 11: trying to lie upon a lie is getting confusing, and
24:49
Speaker 11: now we're lying about vaccines and the cause, and she's
24:53
Speaker 11: probably also terrified that they're going to get caught.
24:56
Speaker 1: Speaking of suffocation, Vanessa explained to me the condition of
25:03
Speaker 1: the children's bodies when they were found by l E
25:08
Speaker 1: law enforcement.
25:10
Speaker 4: They both appeared that they had been gone a while isold.
25:14
Speaker 4: What they stated.
25:15
Speaker 5: They were both full to the touch, they both were
25:18
Speaker 5: in rigor, and it was their estimation that they had
25:21
Speaker 5: been that they had passed away, most likely hours before.
25:25
Speaker 1: That, hours hours before that. Joining us, doctor Kimmel, Crown's
25:30
Speaker 1: chief medical examiner, Terrence County, I want to talk to
25:34
Speaker 1: you about the fact that we have been told let
25:36
Speaker 1: me let me follow up with this real quick. Doctor
25:38
Speaker 1: Crown's Dave mac I understood that they were blue in
25:42
Speaker 1: the face or the lips.
25:44
Speaker 5: What do you know.
25:45
Speaker 15: That's what we're finding out, Nancy, is that they were
25:48
Speaker 15: They were blue in the face and in the lips,
25:50
Speaker 15: and you know, as the mother mentioned, they were stiff.
25:54
Speaker 7: They were called to the touch.
25:55
Speaker 15: She the mother, is the one that suggested rigor mortis
25:58
Speaker 15: had set in. So there's a lot going on in
26:01
Speaker 15: a very protected period time when you start thinking about
26:05
Speaker 15: these children, according to mom, had been not feeling well
26:09
Speaker 15: ever since they got that vaccination days earlier. And it's
26:14
Speaker 15: eleven forty five in the morning when they call nine
26:16
Speaker 15: one one, Nancy, I don't know what the regular neck
26:18
Speaker 15: routine for those children, but children eighteen months, you're going
26:24
Speaker 15: to be checking on them more than two or three hours,
26:26
Speaker 15: especially when they're sick. So there's a lot going on
26:30
Speaker 15: in this that confuses me as a parent, as somebody
26:32
Speaker 15: who has been around small children who are sick.
26:35
Speaker 1: What would that mean, doctor Kendall Crowns if the baby's
26:39
Speaker 1: lips or face were blue or blue tinged.
26:46
Speaker 14: Blue blue tinge means they're not getting any oxygen, and
26:50
Speaker 14: the color of the red blood when it's oxygen and
26:53
Speaker 14: it's red, gives you your rosy cheeks, your red lips,
26:56
Speaker 14: et cetera. And when the oxygen is gone, your blood
27:00
Speaker 14: kind of gets a purplish blue coloration, which gives you
27:03
Speaker 14: the pallor or whitishness of the face, the blueness of lips.
27:07
Speaker 14: When they're saying that the children were blue in colored
27:10
Speaker 14: lips were blue, that means the child had no oxygen
27:13
Speaker 14: going on in their body and they had been dead
27:15
Speaker 14: for a while.
27:19
Speaker 1: Now, I don't understand if there is a connection between
27:25
Speaker 1: the vaccines and loss of oxygenation to the body. Could
27:31
Speaker 1: we be clear about the statistics relating to deaths following
27:37
Speaker 1: childhood vaccinations, Doctor Kendl Crowns.
27:41
Speaker 14: Certainly so. In twenty six years of doing autopsies, I
27:45
Speaker 14: have not seen one instance of a child dying from
27:49
Speaker 14: routine vaccinations. Never have done an autopsy on a child
27:53
Speaker 14: that died from a vaccination. Statistically, it's a one in
27:57
Speaker 14: a million situation where a child might die. There might
28:01
Speaker 14: be an anaphylactic reaction, which means an allergic reaction. The
28:06
Speaker 14: child gets the vaccine and then has an allergy to
28:09
Speaker 14: it and then begins developing a fever. Starts having trouble breathing,
28:14
Speaker 14: et cetera, et cetera. This will happen either upon the
28:17
Speaker 14: moment the vaccine occurs or within the first twenty four hours.
28:22
Speaker 14: Especially with the vaccines we're talking about hepatitis A DETAP,
28:27
Speaker 14: which is the diphtheria, tetanus and protussis, as well as influenza.
28:32
Speaker 14: These are all vaccines that are basically dead organisms that
28:36
Speaker 14: are injected, and so you don't see the anaphylactic reactions.
28:40
Speaker 14: Usually you don't get the reaction to the vaccine where
28:43
Speaker 14: you feel sick afterward. They're very safe and you should
28:48
Speaker 14: always get your vaccines because it's much worse to die
28:51
Speaker 14: from depth theoria, tetanus or protrussis.
28:54
Speaker 1: Reminder Andre Shaw, as you go to airtonit is innocent
28:58
Speaker 1: under the law. I'm looking at the stats. Doctor Kendall
29:01
Speaker 1: Crown's Boise News reports the national MMR that's MOPS masles
29:08
Speaker 1: rubella vaccine. I think coverage by kindergartens in the US
29:14
Speaker 1: is ninety two percent of the children get the MMR vaccine,
29:19
Speaker 1: and Idaho the rate is only seventy eight percent. That
29:24
Speaker 1: is the lowest in the country. Interesting, it has caused
29:31
Speaker 1: quite a controversy in Idaho, and I'm wondering if it
29:36
Speaker 1: will be argued that she's using that controversy as a defense.
29:42
Speaker 1: Very curious. Indeed, now I want you to hear more
29:48
Speaker 1: of what mommy leaked on a podcast, Children's Health Defense podcast.
29:54
Speaker 13: So the doctor came in and.
29:57
Speaker 12: He assessed them a little bit himself, just kind of
30:01
Speaker 12: touched their faces, under their neck, looked at their mouth,
30:07
Speaker 12: and then he he said, he almost seemed like you
30:13
Speaker 12: didn't know what was going on. And then I had
30:15
Speaker 12: brought up that they had shots the day prior and
30:19
Speaker 12: what shots they were, and that's when he went, oh,
30:22
Speaker 12: that they could very much so be a bad reaction
30:25
Speaker 12: to the vaccinations they had yesterday.
30:29
Speaker 1: From children Health Defense. Okay, there you go, So to you,
30:33
Speaker 1: Franz Borcarts. One of the first witnesses the state's gonna
30:36
Speaker 1: call is that doctor that said, oh, this is a
30:41
Speaker 1: bad reaction to vaccines. Because I bet you money that
30:46
Speaker 1: the doctor did not say that.
30:51
Speaker 8: Well, that's gonna be a problem. I'm hoping she can
30:55
Speaker 8: find it.
30:55
Speaker 1: You're not helping her at all, aren't you, the defense attorney?
30:58
Speaker 1: Hold on, let me check your by Yeah, it says
31:00
Speaker 1: the fifth journey.
31:01
Speaker 8: I'm assuming I'm going to find an expert that's going
31:04
Speaker 8: to align with the vaccination sentiment. I'm also assuming that
31:08
Speaker 8: during Va deir Nancy, I'm gonna find some anti vaxxers
31:11
Speaker 8: since this state apparently hates vaccinations. So if I have
31:15
Speaker 8: an expert, I'm gonna have to lean in on that.
31:17
Speaker 8: I mean, she does not help herself. I got to
31:20
Speaker 8: live with that, and heaven forbid, she tried to testify,
31:23
Speaker 8: which if I'm represent her representing her, she's not going
31:26
Speaker 8: to do. But I've got to get an expert. That's
31:28
Speaker 8: the the end of the day. Is I need somebody
31:30
Speaker 8: that's going to say it's possible, and if it's possible,
31:33
Speaker 8: it might be reason.
31:34
Speaker 1: I love the way you just did that. I love
31:36
Speaker 1: what you did right there. I asked you about the
31:39
Speaker 1: doctor who said, oh yeah, this is definitely a result
31:42
Speaker 1: of vaccine being brought on to say I never said that,
31:46
Speaker 1: and you immediately went, I'm getting an expert on anti
31:49
Speaker 1: vax I like the way you did that. Okay, I'm
31:51
Speaker 1: gonna let you think about what you just did, and
31:53
Speaker 1: I want to point out another inconsistency because she just
31:58
Speaker 1: said they had the shot the day prior, and the
32:04
Speaker 1: doctor then said, oh, then this is vaccine related. But
32:07
Speaker 1: out to you Vanessa Walsh unmasked true crime. Isn't it
32:12
Speaker 1: true that Mommy has joined in a lawsuit with the
32:18
Speaker 1: Children Health Defense formerly led by Robert F. Kennedy Junior.
32:25
Speaker 1: The two of them have filed a lawsuit against the
32:29
Speaker 1: American Academy of Pediatrics for quote defrauding families about the
32:34
Speaker 1: safety of vaccine. They claim the twins died quote quote
32:41
Speaker 1: eight days after getting their eighteen month vaccines. Whoopsie, isn't
32:48
Speaker 1: that true, Vanessa Nancy?
32:50
Speaker 4: That's correct.
32:52
Speaker 5: In February she became a plaintiff and a federal lawsuit
32:55
Speaker 5: filed against the American Academy of Pediatrics. And in that
32:58
Speaker 5: suit she does play with the vaccines for the cause
33:01
Speaker 5: of the twins' debts. I do want to mention she
33:03
Speaker 5: also does ask for monetary damages and attorneys fees.
33:08
Speaker 4: So while we don't know if that.
33:11
Speaker 1: Stop screeching, halt, did you say mommy is suing for
33:15
Speaker 1: money suing the American Academy of Pediatrics. What is I mean?
33:20
Speaker 1: I know there's a lawsuit. She's teamed up with rfk's
33:23
Speaker 1: old Children to Health defense, and I'm not this is
33:28
Speaker 1: not about politics, don't care. And they're suing for money,
33:32
Speaker 1: they're not suing for justice. How much money does mommy want?
33:37
Speaker 5: There's no specified amount in the lawsuit, but she does
33:40
Speaker 5: ask for monetary damages and attorney's fees in there.
33:44
Speaker 1: Claudia King joining me, former law enforcement officer and star
33:48
Speaker 1: of No Contests podcast and strong enough. They didn't name
33:53
Speaker 1: a money amount because that will look bad on cross
33:57
Speaker 1: examination for me to get a hold of them and go,
34:01
Speaker 1: isn't it true you're demanding ten million dollars from the
34:05
Speaker 1: American Pediatrics Academy over this? You want money? Right?
34:13
Speaker 13: That would look.
34:14
Speaker 1: Bad because it is bad. Reminder Andrew Shaw as we
34:18
Speaker 1: go to air tonight, is innocent under the law.
34:21
Speaker 13: It's so bad.
34:22
Speaker 6: And this suspect is a law enforcement dream Nancy with
34:27
Speaker 6: all the statements that she's given on the podcast and
34:30
Speaker 6: now this lawsuit where there's no specification for damages or
34:35
Speaker 6: money but she's asking for money. I mean, this is
34:38
Speaker 6: the suspect that we would love to see every single time.
34:42
Speaker 1: I mean, Claudia, they can't even keep their dates correct
34:47
Speaker 1: because she says on the podcast, Oh, Franz borgharts is
34:51
Speaker 1: crying again. She says on the podcast, they died the
34:57
Speaker 1: day after they took the shots, and then this lawsuit,
35:02
Speaker 1: a legal filing that she's the plaintiff, says, and I quote,
35:07
Speaker 1: the twins died eight days after receiving their eighteen month vaccines.
35:13
Speaker 1: That's over a week off.
35:15
Speaker 10: And that's what makes this so ridiculous.
35:17
Speaker 6: And when you start telling lies like she's doing, I
35:21
Speaker 6: believe it is hard to keep them straight. And I
35:24
Speaker 6: know a defense attorney is going to say, oh, it's trauma,
35:28
Speaker 6: she's getting confused. But if she were truly in a
35:32
Speaker 6: traumatic state over the loss of her children, why is
35:36
Speaker 6: she days later even doing this podcast. And I would
35:39
Speaker 6: love to know if she got any compensation for the
35:43
Speaker 6: podcast itself.
35:45
Speaker 16: I was kind of in disbelief that just so quickly,
35:53
Speaker 16: within a matter of twenty four hours, the kids have
35:57
Speaker 16: went from perfectly happy, go lucky, active babies to looking
36:05
Speaker 16: like they were dying.
36:08
Speaker 1: What row did? Daddy just screw up too? That's from
36:12
Speaker 1: Children's Defense to you. Franz Borghart, Daddy says the same thing,
36:18
Speaker 1: but the lawsuit they filed says that the babies died
36:23
Speaker 1: eight days. He says, it was so hard to believe
36:26
Speaker 1: that in twenty four hours, they go from perfectly happy,
36:29
Speaker 1: go lucky active babies too looking like they were dying.
36:39
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, see we're also on the radio, so
36:42
Speaker 1: you can't just sit there and look perplexed this happened.
36:45
Speaker 1: Now deal with it. That's your job, not my job.
36:49
Speaker 1: You're the defense attorney. You're the one that's got to
36:51
Speaker 1: shovel the you know what, Go ahead, have fun.
36:54
Speaker 8: I am unfazed by the civil lawsuit. It is completely
36:58
Speaker 8: normal if you believe that someone killed your child that
37:00
Speaker 8: you would file suivil suit against them. And by the way,
37:02
Speaker 8: civil suits are only about money, so I'm unfazed about
37:05
Speaker 8: the money grab either. They describe the discrepancy amongst the days. Yeah,
37:10
Speaker 8: I'm gonna have to deal with that. But at the
37:12
Speaker 8: end of the day, if the vaccine killed these two
37:14
Speaker 8: beautiful kids, it killed these two beautiful kids, and that's
37:17
Speaker 8: still reasonable.
37:18
Speaker 1: Well, boy, you are going to have to do some
37:21
Speaker 1: jeury loading, aren't you. Okay, dodgor Leslie Dobson, I hope
37:26
Speaker 1: you and Claudia are sitting down listen to this.
37:31
Speaker 7: They have a newborn. They had a child born on
37:33
Speaker 7: June twenty fifth and She's that the newborn was born
37:37
Speaker 7: three weeks early, and so she's nursing and using bottle feeding.
37:41
Speaker 7: Now she's in the jail.
37:43
Speaker 1: Vanessa, she has another baby, Yes, Nancy, she gave birth
37:47
Speaker 1: to a baby girl on June twenty fifth, and it's
37:51
Speaker 1: my understanding that.
37:52
Speaker 5: The baby was premature and wasn't a nick you for
37:55
Speaker 5: one day, and her husband n Daniel is currently caring
37:59
Speaker 5: for the new baby.
38:00
Speaker 1: Both Andrew Shaw and her husband are presumed innocent. Dave
38:07
Speaker 1: mac Crime Stories, investigative reporter. Now, the babies had the vaccine,
38:11
Speaker 1: Mommy says they quote got sick and had to go
38:14
Speaker 1: to the er right after the vaccines. Then time passed
38:20
Speaker 1: and they were found dead. Do we have the timeline correct, Dave?
38:24
Speaker 15: You do, and Nancy, this is what Nathaniel, the father
38:28
Speaker 15: was talking about, that the children were perfectly fine until
38:31
Speaker 15: they got the vaccinations, and within twenty four hours of
38:34
Speaker 15: the vaccinations they were sick. They had to be taken
38:37
Speaker 15: to the hospital. There was a follow up called to
38:40
Speaker 15: the pediatrician later in the week, and finally eight days
38:43
Speaker 15: after the vaccination, that's when the children were found dead.
38:46
Speaker 4: In the bed.
38:47
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes more sense. What the dad said, it
38:50
Speaker 1: seems as if another entity is going to be ginned
38:54
Speaker 1: up for a lawsuit.
38:55
Speaker 13: What do you want to say to the pediatrician who
38:57
Speaker 13: said it was fine to take the vaccines when you asked.
39:00
Speaker 12: Him not to in a non angry way. I wish
39:05
Speaker 12: that she had informed me more and was willing to
39:08
Speaker 12: inform me more and reassure us with even paperwork in
39:13
Speaker 12: facts to make us feel better about the vaccination, and
39:19
Speaker 12: especially the flu shot, where we had expressed our concern
39:23
Speaker 12: with their father's side of the family having reactions to
39:26
Speaker 12: just the flu shot.
39:27
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, doctor Leslie Dobson, Now she's laying
39:31
Speaker 1: blame on the doctor. I was worried about vaccines too,
39:34
Speaker 1: because when the twins were born eighteen years ago, there
39:37
Speaker 1: was so much noise about the vaccines cause autism, vaccines
39:42
Speaker 1: caused all of these maladies. Yet I looked at the
39:45
Speaker 1: statistics at that time and I knew they needed vaccines.
39:50
Speaker 1: So we never did bundles like where you get three,
39:55
Speaker 1: four or five vaccines at once this arm and that's no.
40:00
Speaker 1: We went back and back and back for a really
40:03
Speaker 1: long time until they got all of their vaccines so
40:07
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be bundled, but it seems as if mommy
40:12
Speaker 1: is pointing in every direction. What do you make of that,
40:17
Speaker 1: doctor Leslie.
40:20
Speaker 10: She's very detached.
40:21
Speaker 11: I mean even when she says, they went down for
40:24
Speaker 11: a nap, I'm sorry they went down.
40:26
Speaker 10: No, you put them down for a nap. You're their mother.
40:29
Speaker 10: So there's this detachment.
40:31
Speaker 11: And then when they bring up the pediatrician, she laughs,
40:34
Speaker 11: she laughs, Oh great, we have.
40:36
Speaker 10: Someone else to pin this on.
40:38
Speaker 11: The affect does not match the severity of the situation,
40:43
Speaker 11: and she's not in shock either. We can't lean on
40:46
Speaker 11: that because she is still showing affect. She's not consistent
40:49
Speaker 11: with trauma. She's not consistent with shock, she's not consistent
40:52
Speaker 11: with postpartum psychosis, which should really be four weeks after birth.
40:58
Speaker 10: It doesn't make sense. And then she does have a.
41:01
Speaker 11: TikTok where she's showing a miscarriage in twenty twenty two,
41:05
Speaker 11: and she actually shows the baby she miscarried.
41:09
Speaker 10: So we have this whole theme of.
41:11
Speaker 11: Pay attention to me, pay attention to me. I want
41:13
Speaker 11: to be important, and I'm going to use babies to
41:16
Speaker 11: do it.
41:16
Speaker 1: Well, doctor Leslie, You're right, and we have that TikTok.
41:20
Speaker 1: But I'm going to warn you we're blurring out the
41:25
Speaker 1: fetus that was miscarried. Bottom line, Doctor Kendall Crowns, what
41:32
Speaker 1: would you expect if a child had had amazingly two
41:36
Speaker 1: children have the very same reaction to vaccines and die.
41:41
Speaker 1: What would you have found? Would they have been blue
41:43
Speaker 1: in the face?
41:45
Speaker 14: Well, first off, yes, they would have probably been blue
41:48
Speaker 14: in the face because it would be more than likely
41:50
Speaker 14: than not an anaphylactic reaction. The difficulty with this is
41:54
Speaker 14: that you have an eight day time period from injection
41:57
Speaker 14: to death, so that's not anaphylax. But if it was anaphylaxis,
42:02
Speaker 14: what we would see at autopsy is swelling of the
42:05
Speaker 14: tissues in the windpipe or the larynx and trachia. You
42:10
Speaker 14: would also see a hyper expansion of lungs, so the
42:13
Speaker 14: lungs are also swollen and full of air and fluid.
42:17
Speaker 14: And then microscopically, there would be these specific cells that
42:20
Speaker 14: we see in an allergic reaction known as eosinophils, and
42:24
Speaker 14: when we see those, along with the swelling of the airway,
42:28
Speaker 14: swelling the lungs, and even swelling of the tongue, you
42:32
Speaker 14: know you're dealing with an anaphylactic reaction. We can also
42:36
Speaker 14: do lab tests as well, looking for a specific marker
42:39
Speaker 14: called trip tastes and IgE. Both of these are seen
42:43
Speaker 14: in allergic reaction cases. So all those findings together would
42:47
Speaker 14: then show you that they died from an allergy. Again,
42:51
Speaker 14: two of them dying from the exact same allergy is unlikely,
42:55
Speaker 14: and in an eight day time period, it again is
42:59
Speaker 14: not even possible for that to be an allergic reaction.
43:02
Speaker 1: Adding insult to injury, Mommy is upset about how she
43:08
Speaker 1: was treated after her both of her children are dead.
43:14
Speaker 13: How did the police treat you both?
43:17
Speaker 16: Oh, the most blatant way that I can put how
43:25
Speaker 16: I was treated was with the most disrespect that I
43:30
Speaker 16: have ever been talked to treated. They constantly were trying
43:38
Speaker 16: to pin me and Andrea against each other, trying to
43:42
Speaker 16: get us to say, well, I think she did it
43:45
Speaker 16: or I think he did it.
43:46
Speaker 12: The way they worded it to me, and especially the
43:50
Speaker 12: second day of interrogation, they said that it wasn't medical
43:56
Speaker 12: and that they figured asphyxiation and that I had supposedly
44:02
Speaker 12: had a postpartum overwhelming blackout and done it to my children.
44:06
Speaker 1: Let me reiterate tonight that neither Mommy Area Shaw or
44:11
Speaker 1: her husband have been found guilty of wrongdoing. The husband
44:15
Speaker 1: has not even been charged. Under our law, they are
44:19
Speaker 1: presumed innocent, and that presumption stays with them and cloaks
44:24
Speaker 1: them unless and until that presumption is pierced by evidence
44:30
Speaker 1: from the state sufficient to prove them guilty beyond a
44:35
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. If you know or think you know anything
44:39
Speaker 1: about the deaths of these two beautiful twins, dial two
44:43
Speaker 1: zero eight six four to two six zero two six.
44:49
Speaker 1: We remember American hero Detective Andrew Rayner NYPD, who passed
44:54
Speaker 1: away after nineteen years on the force, leaving behind grieving
44:59
Speaker 1: sister Regina American hero Detective Andrea Rayner. Thank you to
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Speaker 1: our guests, but especially to you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off for to night, but I'll see
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Speaker 1: you tomorrow night, and until then, good night friend,