Transcript

Credlin | 13 October · Credlin

0:02
Speaker 1: Peter Krandlin live on Skyingins Australia.
0:09
Speaker 2: All right, you're coming live to Kredline here. There's no
0:11
Speaker 2: normal opening to the show because we have extraordinary events
0:15
Speaker 2: coming out of Israel. There are at the Bengurian Airport.
0:17
Speaker 2: You can see Air Force one is there on the
0:20
Speaker 2: tarmac and this truly is and historic day, not just
0:24
Speaker 2: in the Middle East, but in politics right around the world.
0:29
Speaker 2: We hope this is the commencement of peace with the
0:32
Speaker 2: return of hostages, and of course to secure the peace
0:35
Speaker 2: we have arriving now into Israel, the President of the
0:39
Speaker 2: United States, the man who withstood the calls were around
0:43
Speaker 2: the world to recognize a Palestinian state a couple of
0:46
Speaker 2: weeks ago in the United Nations, and by standing firm
0:50
Speaker 2: he and Arab States and Israel have delivered this peace,
0:55
Speaker 2: despite of course, what our Prime Minister in Australia might
0:58
Speaker 2: want to say that recognizing Palestine brought today to fruition.
1:04
Speaker 2: Our thoughts and prayers are obviously with the families of
1:07
Speaker 2: everyone connected to those hostages as we wait and hold
1:11
Speaker 2: our breath around the world that they will actually be
1:15
Speaker 2: delivered now to those they love. Joining me now, Sky
1:19
Speaker 2: News Political contributor Chris Julman, Chris, welcome. As I said,
1:23
Speaker 2: it's an unusual start to the show. We can see
1:25
Speaker 2: why that is. We've got Benjamin de Nahu there, of course,
1:29
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister of Israel.
1:30
Speaker 3: We've got the President of Israel.
1:32
Speaker 2: Other dignitaries there, Mike Huckabee and others on the tarmac.
1:36
Speaker 2: If there are any comments from Donald Trump to the media,
1:40
Speaker 2: we will cut in immediately and bring them to our viewers.
1:44
Speaker 2: But give me your reflections on what is an extraordinary
1:47
Speaker 2: day in Israel.
1:50
Speaker 1: Well, Peter, this is unalloyed good news. Seven hundred and
1:54
Speaker 1: thirty seven days since those horrific attacks on October seven,
1:58
Speaker 1: when two hundred and fifty one hostile were taken. People
2:01
Speaker 1: were brutalized, and that's what began all this, and we
2:04
Speaker 1: can never forget that those people have been held hostage
2:07
Speaker 1: ever since. Many of them have died. Now we've seen
2:10
Speaker 1: seven people released, we're hoping to see twenty released. And
2:13
Speaker 1: of course no one will relax until every single one
2:15
Speaker 1: of those hostages is back with their families and the
2:18
Speaker 1: bodies of those who have died are returned to their
2:21
Speaker 1: loved ones. And so this day is a momentous day
2:25
Speaker 1: in this particular war, but of course it is the
2:28
Speaker 1: first step along a long and difficult path. What we
2:32
Speaker 1: will see in exchange is there will be there will
2:35
Speaker 1: be there will be a two thousand more than two
2:40
Speaker 1: thousand hostages will be not hostages, more than two thousand
2:44
Speaker 1: Palestinians will be released by Israel. Among them will be
2:48
Speaker 1: some hardened her mass fighters. So of course that does
2:52
Speaker 1: mean those people will go back to Harmas and as
2:54
Speaker 1: we see Israel retreat from the front line and move
2:58
Speaker 1: back to a different position where begins to return some
3:01
Speaker 1: of that territory. The concern, of course would be that
3:04
Speaker 1: Hamas will start to take up that space again. Of
3:07
Speaker 1: course they're armed. So what we need to see from
3:10
Speaker 1: the international community is that void being filled by those
3:14
Speaker 1: states in the Middle East that can do something about it.
3:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get to a discussion of those prisoners that
3:22
Speaker 2: will be released, because as you say, there are two
3:25
Speaker 2: thousand of them. There has been prisoners exchanged for hostages
3:30
Speaker 2: all the way through the last two years. There are
3:32
Speaker 2: also reports that one hundred and thirty five of them
3:34
Speaker 2: are set to be released and leave Israel. I would
3:39
Speaker 2: have concerns that the Australian government need to rule out
3:42
Speaker 2: the return of any of these Palestinian prisoners into Australia.
3:47
Speaker 3: We know we've taken three.
3:48
Speaker 2: Thousand gardens on visas to date tourism short term visas
3:53
Speaker 2: of course, but once in Australia a lot of them
3:55
Speaker 2: have been now transferred onto protection visa application so for
4:00
Speaker 2: people at home and they are trying to remain in
4:03
Speaker 2: Australia as refugees.
4:05
Speaker 3: So we'll stay with that.
4:07
Speaker 2: Issue of course for the domestic implications potentially for Australia, Chris,
4:11
Speaker 2: But your broader point reports today that already Hamas Police
4:17
Speaker 2: Force operatives back on the streets of Gaza, you know,
4:22
Speaker 2: whether they call themselves a different organization. There is genuine
4:26
Speaker 2: concern that the people who will return to running Gaza
4:30
Speaker 2: will be those of the terrorist stripe of Hamasin in
4:33
Speaker 2: some other guys. And of course that is critical to
4:37
Speaker 2: this being a lasting peace, that the terrorism activity that
4:41
Speaker 2: we have seen for many years, basically since the Israelis
4:47
Speaker 2: left the Gaza strip about fifteen years ago, that that
4:51
Speaker 2: cannot return to this.
4:55
Speaker 3: Area of land.
4:56
Speaker 2: That's not just dominated world news for two years, but
5:00
Speaker 2: I have to say has seen the West turn itself
5:03
Speaker 2: inside out. We've seen protests on our streets. We've seen
5:07
Speaker 2: that the scourge, the return of anti Semitism, and these
5:11
Speaker 2: are the things that as much as we want to
5:13
Speaker 2: see peace return to Israel, we want to see peace
5:17
Speaker 2: return to our city streets in our Australian community as well.
5:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I fear Peter that all that next step
5:25
Speaker 1: will be very hard, both what happens in Israel and
5:27
Speaker 1: what happens in Australia after this, because it seems to
5:30
Speaker 1: me the large group of Australians is intent on the
5:33
Speaker 1: fact that it wants to see Israel wipe from the
5:35
Speaker 1: face of the earth in the same way that her
5:37
Speaker 1: Mask does. They're not interested in a two state solution.
5:39
Speaker 1: If they are chanting from the river to the sea,
5:42
Speaker 1: they're talking about erasing the state of Israel. They're not
5:44
Speaker 1: talking about anything else. So those people inside our own
5:47
Speaker 1: borders are of deep concern to us and inside Gaza.
5:52
Speaker 1: Of course, it's going to be what does happen from
5:54
Speaker 1: now on. Now, that's a very detailed plan that the
5:57
Speaker 1: President of the United States has agreed with others, but
6:01
Speaker 1: that now has to see the next steps take shape,
6:03
Speaker 1: and those next steps the most important part of that
6:06
Speaker 1: is that they're not be avoid in Gaza as the
6:09
Speaker 1: Israeli Defense Force begins to move out of the areas
6:12
Speaker 1: it now occupies, because obviously Hamas will try and fill
6:16
Speaker 1: that space.
6:17
Speaker 4: Now.
6:17
Speaker 1: I know there's been talk about a board that will
6:19
Speaker 1: run all of this, but there needs to be troops
6:21
Speaker 1: that will take the place and can enforce some kind
6:24
Speaker 1: of peace in Gaza that disarms the mass. Now, of
6:27
Speaker 1: course they would never want that. So this is where
6:29
Speaker 1: all of this stuff from here on in gets ridiculously difficult.
6:36
Speaker 2: We know, of course, there were watching images there of
6:39
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister and then Yahoo and the President Donald
6:41
Speaker 2: Trump sitting there waiting to depart. We've been advised that
6:46
Speaker 2: the president the earlier intention, and we think that still stands,
6:49
Speaker 2: is that he will privately meet with hostages that have
6:52
Speaker 2: been released. You mentioned there seven, Chris. We're not entirely
6:56
Speaker 2: sure whether they are in the hands of the Israeli
7:00
Speaker 2: they were transferred, we are told by the terrorist organization
7:05
Speaker 2: Hamas to the Red Cross. There'll be obviously medical checks
7:08
Speaker 2: and things, but we're told those arrangements will be private.
7:12
Speaker 2: They will not be media events. That Donald Trump wants
7:15
Speaker 2: to meet with the attorneys privately, and of course then
7:19
Speaker 2: he will speak in the Israeli parliament. It's known as
7:23
Speaker 2: the Kanesset. I'll make the point in the Kanesset. In
7:26
Speaker 2: the Israeli Parliament, elected by the people of Israel, are
7:31
Speaker 2: people of almost every faith. There are Arabs, there are Muslims,
7:34
Speaker 2: there are Christians, and of course there were Jewish Israeli.
7:37
Speaker 2: So it is a very representative, very democratic parliament. The
7:41
Speaker 2: United States President will make an historic address there. It
7:44
Speaker 2: will be a little bit by those addresses that the
7:47
Speaker 2: Pope makes, Chris, where it's to the people of Rome
7:50
Speaker 2: and the people of the world, this will be to
7:52
Speaker 2: the people of Israel and to the people of the
7:54
Speaker 2: world as we all watch and share the joy, absolute
7:59
Speaker 2: joy with Israelis about the return of their people.
8:03
Speaker 3: But I have to say, Chris, you.
8:04
Speaker 2: Know it feels piric, is peric the right words, certainly poignant,
8:11
Speaker 2: that we have seen such enormous loss of life, that
8:15
Speaker 2: we know the origins of this attack were in terrorism
8:18
Speaker 2: against innocent civilians.
8:21
Speaker 3: There's been almost a.
8:22
Speaker 2: Thousand of the Israeliami healed, many thousands of course across
8:26
Speaker 2: civilians across the border. Pourt in harm's way by harm
8:30
Speaker 2: us killed in this two year conflict. But I guess
8:35
Speaker 2: the concern is at what price in our own society
8:37
Speaker 2: is that we now have this scourge of anti Semitism.
8:41
Speaker 2: We've seen hate on our streets, we've seen basically jubilation
8:47
Speaker 2: about the end justifies the means in terms of bringing
8:52
Speaker 2: about a Palestinian state. And I have to say in
8:54
Speaker 2: terms of Australia to we've broken seventy years of bipartisanship.
8:58
Speaker 2: So as as wonderful as these scenes we surely will
9:02
Speaker 2: see in Hostage Square are, they've come an enormous cost
9:06
Speaker 2: to humanity.
9:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so costa keeps rising and it's very difficult
9:12
Speaker 1: to discern. One of the things that we do know
9:14
Speaker 1: from the outset was what ha Maas intended. Because of course,
9:17
Speaker 1: after those first attacks, ha Mass could have entered this
9:20
Speaker 1: war at any stage by returning the hostages and agreeing
9:24
Speaker 1: to negotiate. It decided it would not do that because
9:27
Speaker 1: the entire intent of this was to put the people
9:30
Speaker 1: on of Gaza on the line in this campaign and
9:33
Speaker 1: know that Israel would react with fury and hope that
9:36
Speaker 1: a lot of Gazans would die. That was what that
9:39
Speaker 1: was at the outset. That was the calculation that Israel
9:42
Speaker 1: would discredit itself in the face of the world as
9:45
Speaker 1: it tried to hunt down Hamas and tried to get
9:47
Speaker 1: back its hostages. There would be civilian casualties. Why would
9:51
Speaker 1: there be civilian casualties. Well, because mass basically puts all
9:54
Speaker 1: of its equipment and all of its sensitive sites underneath
9:59
Speaker 1: hospitals and underneath schools. They would be prepared for everyone
10:03
Speaker 1: in Gaza to die as long as Israel was discredited. Now, unfortunately,
10:09
Speaker 1: that part of their campaign, I believe has been outrageously successful.
10:12
Speaker 1: Around the world. We have seen the allies of Israel
10:16
Speaker 1: abandon it in the United Nations as pressure from within
10:19
Speaker 1: their own communities. And don't forget that's where that all
10:21
Speaker 1: came from. When we saw Macron and when we saw
10:23
Speaker 1: Anthony Albanisi, and when we saw Mark Carney from Canada,
10:26
Speaker 1: and when we saw Kirsteimer from the UK responding with
10:30
Speaker 1: recognizing a state that doesn't exist, they were doing that
10:33
Speaker 1: because of domestic political pressure. That was the audience they
10:37
Speaker 1: were playing to. And that comes to your second point.
10:40
Speaker 1: That pressure has grown remarkably over time in places like
10:44
Speaker 1: Australia and the UK. And in Canada, where we've seen
10:48
Speaker 1: people on the streets who clearly have an agenda that
10:51
Speaker 1: goes well beyond just trying to end the war in Gaza.
10:56
Speaker 1: Their intention is that the state of Israel be erased
10:58
Speaker 1: from the map. I don't think there's any getting around that.
11:01
Speaker 1: And what we've seen now as a rise of anti Semitism,
11:04
Speaker 1: which I don't believe now we'll be able to quell
11:07
Speaker 1: now that the genie's back out of the bottle, I
11:09
Speaker 1: think that that's going to be a problem for quite
11:11
Speaker 1: some time to come.
11:16
Speaker 2: I have to ask you, as we're watching there the
11:18
Speaker 2: motorcade depart and as I said, the president's on his
11:22
Speaker 2: way to a private meeting with returned hostages, and we'll
11:25
Speaker 2: then speak at the Knesset. Of course, we will bring
11:27
Speaker 2: all of that live to you here on Sky News,
11:29
Speaker 2: and at half past seven to night at seven thirty
11:32
Speaker 2: the airing, of course, of Tony Abbott's documentary, a three
11:36
Speaker 2: part documentary about the history of Australia. The book's on
11:39
Speaker 2: sale from today. The documentary kicks off tonight, but it's
11:43
Speaker 2: a big day right around the world.
11:44
Speaker 3: I will just quickly.
11:46
Speaker 2: Jump into some domestic politics with you Chris, because let's
11:49
Speaker 2: just stay at a light touch in terms of this
11:53
Speaker 2: tax and backflip today from the Treasurer that there will
11:57
Speaker 2: be no longer the taxation of unrealized capital gains on Super.
12:02
Speaker 2: There will be taxation of Super for balances over thirty
12:07
Speaker 2: three million, and there'll be a new tax in relation
12:09
Speaker 2: to balances over ten million, but the unrealized gains component
12:15
Speaker 2: has been dumped. You have to make the profit now
12:18
Speaker 2: to be taxed on the profit, which is standard taxation
12:21
Speaker 2: law in Australia. However, however, the announcement timing of this
12:28
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister's overseas on a seven day holiday, we're told,
12:31
Speaker 2: and the Treasurer does this, this, this is a huge
12:35
Speaker 2: backflip on the day that he knows the world will
12:38
Speaker 2: be looking across at Israel. Just give me a sense
12:42
Speaker 2: of the of the rat cunning politics at play there.
12:47
Speaker 1: Well, I long ago stop being cynical about so gave
12:50
Speaker 1: up any hope that being anything other than cynical. I
12:52
Speaker 1: should say about the way that politicians time their announcements
12:56
Speaker 1: of things. You know, they used always talk about putting
12:58
Speaker 1: out the trash on a Friday. Well, certainly today if
13:01
Speaker 1: you were trying to put out anything that wasn't very
13:03
Speaker 1: palatable than today's the day to do it domestically in
13:05
Speaker 1: Australia because all of us knew whether or not these
13:08
Speaker 1: hostages were released, that that would be the story of
13:10
Speaker 1: this day, and we know that it will go seven
13:12
Speaker 1: pages deep into many of the newspapers tomorrow. So any
13:16
Speaker 1: bad news on the front, perhaps apart from the Austrain
13:18
Speaker 1: and Financial Review, may well get pushed back in the newspapers.
13:23
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's a story that's going to
13:25
Speaker 1: go away. And quite clear, the Prime Minister intervened in
13:28
Speaker 1: this and rolled his Treasurer on it. That's the way
13:30
Speaker 1: it looks, certainly the way it looks. The Treasurer says
13:33
Speaker 1: that's not the case. But what you have to wonder
13:35
Speaker 1: about all this too is what's the role of treasury anymore?
13:38
Speaker 1: What Treasury recommends to a minister or allows or stay
13:41
Speaker 1: silent when a minister says they are going to tax
13:44
Speaker 1: unrealized gains on anything that's money you do not have.
13:49
Speaker 1: That goes against all the principles of taxation. And I
13:51
Speaker 1: think one of the real concerns must have been whether
13:53
Speaker 1: or not this ends up in court and they lose.
13:58
Speaker 3: Yeah.
13:59
Speaker 2: Of course the critic criticisms from Paul Keating, who is
14:03
Speaker 2: and has long been a political hero and mentor to
14:06
Speaker 2: the Treasurer. He was the subject of the Treasurer's political PhD.
14:09
Speaker 2: He's not an economist, the Treasurer. He's got a PhD
14:12
Speaker 2: in Paul Keating. Basically, I think they would have hit
14:16
Speaker 2: home pretty hard.
14:17
Speaker 3: I'll leave it there. I'll give you a reprieve for a.
14:20
Speaker 2: Moment if I can, Chris you and I'll bring in
14:22
Speaker 2: Peter Jennings, who was going to join me anyway and
14:26
Speaker 2: delighted to say he's joining me now a little bit
14:27
Speaker 2: earlier than planned in the program giving the events that
14:30
Speaker 2: we're seeing unfold now. He's the director of course of
14:33
Speaker 2: Strategic Analysis Australia and a defense and foreign affairs expert.
14:39
Speaker 3: Give me your sense.
14:40
Speaker 2: Just let's start at a high level if we can,
14:42
Speaker 2: Peter about the historic nature of today. But I guess
14:46
Speaker 2: the price that the Western world, in particular Israel is
14:50
Speaker 2: playing paying.
14:52
Speaker 3: To get to where we are this morning in the
14:55
Speaker 3: Middle East.
14:58
Speaker 5: So, Peter, two things have made it possible to get
15:01
Speaker 5: to this hostage release today. The first of it is
15:04
Speaker 5: the success of the Israeli military in combat at arms,
15:09
Speaker 5: in fighting a campaign which the rest of the world
15:11
Speaker 5: didn't want them to fight in Gaza, to bring Humas
15:15
Speaker 5: to the point of defeat. And I think it's really
15:17
Speaker 5: only despair which has forced Humas to this particular outcome.
15:22
Speaker 5: And then the second factor has been Donald Trump, who
15:25
Speaker 5: is a different breed of cat As we all know,
15:27
Speaker 5: he plays this game very differently. I don't think any
15:30
Speaker 5: of Trump's three or four predecessors could have delivered this outcome.
15:36
Speaker 5: The start of the peace process is probably the most
15:38
Speaker 5: significant development in terms of Middle East peace involving Palestine
15:43
Speaker 5: for a generation. And Trump has been able to do
15:46
Speaker 5: that by building ties with the Arab countries over both
15:50
Speaker 5: the first and now the second term of his time
15:53
Speaker 5: in office, and with some unexpectedly good diplomacy from Jared
15:58
Speaker 5: Kushner and Steve Witkoff the two invoice that he's used
16:01
Speaker 5: in the Middle East. So it's a personal triumph for Trump.
16:06
Speaker 5: As everyone says, of course, it's very, very challenging to
16:09
Speaker 5: move forward now. But the key to this is going
16:12
Speaker 5: to be Trump's ability to keep Middle Eastern states online,
16:16
Speaker 5: providing peacekeepers to force Hamas and the Palestinians into a
16:21
Speaker 5: different way of thinking about their future.
16:25
Speaker 2: Peter, I know we're talking about Israel, but talk to
16:26
Speaker 2: me also about what this has done in terms of
16:31
Speaker 2: the power and the mighty Iran. But in particular two,
16:35
Speaker 2: I want to talk about Hezbala because we remember that
16:37
Speaker 2: page is strike and how substantially weakened they are on
16:42
Speaker 2: the north border of is rather the border of course
16:44
Speaker 2: with Lebanon. Tell me about the changing dynamic of this quartet,
16:51
Speaker 2: this quintete actually of terror states basically or terror entities.
16:56
Speaker 2: Where do they stand now?
17:00
Speaker 5: Well, Iran is much diminished compared to where it was
17:05
Speaker 5: two years ago at the time of the Hamas attack,
17:09
Speaker 5: where the Mullers in Tehran looked as though they were
17:12
Speaker 5: succeeding in their strategy of strangulation of Israel with very
17:16
Speaker 5: strong terror groups creating seven fronts that Israel was forced
17:21
Speaker 5: to fight on. Since that time, what we have seen
17:24
Speaker 5: has been very powerful and well directed Israeli and American
17:30
Speaker 5: air strikes, which has significantly reduced the power of the
17:36
Speaker 5: Iranian regime inside their own country. The loss of President
17:41
Speaker 5: Assad in Syria, which essentially wiped out a Hesbella stronghold,
17:47
Speaker 5: and then that astonishing Israeli intelligence victory over Hesbellah in Lebanon,
17:52
Speaker 5: which really killed off the senior leadership of Hesbela. So
17:56
Speaker 5: right now Israel emerges as by far the strongest military
18:00
Speaker 5: and intelligence power in the Middle East. Iran is much diminished.
18:05
Speaker 5: The Mullers are hanging on by their fingernails, and I
18:08
Speaker 5: think regime changes of possibility, and this also helps to
18:12
Speaker 5: explain why I think Trump has been successful in impressing
18:17
Speaker 5: Arab Sunni states to now try and think differently about
18:21
Speaker 5: how to move on beyond the Palestinian problem to make
18:24
Speaker 5: long term peace with Israel. It's a very promising, if
18:28
Speaker 5: difficult target to land Peter, But none of us would
18:31
Speaker 5: have thought this was in prospect two years ago, even
18:36
Speaker 5: six months ago.
18:36
Speaker 2: Really, no, not at all, not at all, And you
18:40
Speaker 2: would not have naturally said that something like Trump coming
18:43
Speaker 2: from business, not through the sort of the storied usual
18:49
Speaker 2: path of a US president where they're coming through twenty
18:52
Speaker 2: or so years in the congressional areas like Joe Biden
18:55
Speaker 2: did experience, they say, in foreign affairs, he has been
19:01
Speaker 2: able to do deals and build relationships. We saw that
19:04
Speaker 2: in the first term, of course, with the Abraham accords
19:07
Speaker 2: with Muslim states in the Middle East in a way
19:11
Speaker 2: that I don't think life certainly didn't think was possible.
19:14
Speaker 2: I think most people who have observed the history of
19:17
Speaker 2: this region for twenty or thirty years would say was
19:20
Speaker 2: not likely and not possible. But he has defied his critics.
19:24
Speaker 2: He has bought a transactional nature to the relationships with
19:28
Speaker 2: these countries. Perhaps that's what was missing the whole time.
19:31
Speaker 2: You know, a little bit of strength, a little bit
19:33
Speaker 2: of you know, tough jaw boding, and we saw with
19:36
Speaker 2: that strike on Iran cross by and I mean business.
19:40
Speaker 3: Maybe that's what you know.
19:42
Speaker 2: Tough states, Tough leaders need to see that same toughness
19:46
Speaker 2: in their opponents and their adverstaries before you get them
19:49
Speaker 2: to move. Because that's where we are now. I think
19:51
Speaker 2: by the strength of his character and indeed his unpredictability,
19:56
Speaker 2: and after his time at the Kanesset, of course, we
19:59
Speaker 2: know he'll go to Charmel shake and he'll meet with
20:02
Speaker 2: twenty world leaders around the table give us a sense
20:06
Speaker 2: of what we're expecting out of that interaction.
20:11
Speaker 5: So I think Trump understands the importance of momentum here.
20:14
Speaker 5: He needs to sort of push his hard and as
20:17
Speaker 5: fast to try and cement Arab support, in particular around
20:21
Speaker 5: the points two to twenty of his peace plan. But
20:26
Speaker 5: I think he might just be able to pull it off.
20:28
Speaker 5: He has the confidence to do it, He has the
20:30
Speaker 5: backing of American military might you know, thinking of Joe
20:34
Speaker 5: Biden's approach in the Middle East, there wasn't a Middle
20:37
Speaker 5: East and policy problem that Biden didn't make worse frankly
20:40
Speaker 5: in his time in office, including of course, with the
20:44
Speaker 5: disaster of American withdrawal from Afghanistan, which was precisely the
20:48
Speaker 5: wrong message to the Arab community. It was a sign
20:51
Speaker 5: of American weakness, of American retrenchment from the Middle East.
20:56
Speaker 5: And so here we see Donald Trump now defying everyone's expectations.
21:01
Speaker 5: So I mean, he is not an isolationist president. He's
21:04
Speaker 5: actually someone who's deeply invested in building relations with the
21:08
Speaker 5: Arab countries, Saudi in particular, And I think now he
21:13
Speaker 5: might just have the momentum and a desire of the
21:15
Speaker 5: Arab states to move beyond the never ending, never soluble
21:20
Speaker 5: Palestinian problem. So you know, we should keep our fingers
21:23
Speaker 5: crossed that Trump might be able to do this.
21:27
Speaker 3: What I thought was interesting too.
21:29
Speaker 2: You know the play of Jared Kushna because he's not
21:33
Speaker 2: official staff. He doesn't rest inside the US State Department,
21:38
Speaker 2: so he's not an accountable bureaucrat that can be directed
21:41
Speaker 2: in any particular way. He doesn't have the same chain
21:44
Speaker 2: of command that every other diplomat on the circuit does.
21:48
Speaker 3: But he is himself Jewish. Of course.
21:51
Speaker 2: He speaks with the authority of his father in law
21:53
Speaker 2: in the way that few can, and just as instrumental
21:57
Speaker 2: as he was in the first administration with the abrah Accords,
22:01
Speaker 2: here we have him absolutely at the table through all
22:06
Speaker 2: of these negotiations. Yes, it's unorthodox, but he has helped
22:11
Speaker 2: pull it off.
22:14
Speaker 3: Well.
22:14
Speaker 5: And the remarkable thing here is that it's not just
22:17
Speaker 5: because of his relationship to his father in law. Krishna
22:22
Speaker 5: has been able to develop close personal relationships with MBS
22:26
Speaker 5: in Saudi Arabia, with NBZ in the Arab Emirates, good
22:31
Speaker 5: quality personal relationships that carry weight, and I think have
22:36
Speaker 5: been able to help bring the Gulf Arabs and Saudi
22:40
Speaker 5: along on this particular journey. He's the original architect of
22:44
Speaker 5: the Abraham Accords, which really started to create a different
22:49
Speaker 5: sense of what Israel's future could be like with its
22:53
Speaker 5: Middle Eastern neighbors. So Krishna emerges as something of a
22:59
Speaker 5: surprise package. And I say a surprise because so much
23:01
Speaker 5: of the media has wanted to be slighting about him
23:06
Speaker 5: in the way that the New York Times is and
23:07
Speaker 5: the Washington Post is when it comes to dealing with
23:10
Speaker 5: the Trump administration. But he's delivered some real achievements here.
23:15
Speaker 5: I don't know if Kushner in the second term has
23:17
Speaker 5: any longer term political ambitions, but this will have done
23:20
Speaker 5: his chances no harm. Peter and maybe jd. Vance will
23:24
Speaker 5: be thinking there'll be a bit of competition for him
23:26
Speaker 5: when it comes to the presidential nomination in a three
23:30
Speaker 5: years time.
23:33
Speaker 2: He could be a good VP pick, although there's I
23:35
Speaker 2: think a long queue of people with Trump in their
23:37
Speaker 2: surname for that one as well. To just talk to
23:40
Speaker 2: me about what's left of the Hamas leadership, I mean,
23:44
Speaker 2: are we in this position today in part because they
23:47
Speaker 2: have literally been blown up and out of the way,
23:50
Speaker 2: or are they still The real senior player is protected
23:54
Speaker 2: in Katah and engineering things from Afar.
24:01
Speaker 5: So starting with what we see on the ground in Gaza,
24:05
Speaker 5: there is clearly some Hamas leadership still left. There is
24:09
Speaker 5: very credible evidence to say that what Hamas militarily has
24:13
Speaker 5: done since the withdrawal of the IDF in the last
24:17
Speaker 5: thirty six hours or so, as they've called up people
24:21
Speaker 5: into their internal security services, they're doing their best to
24:25
Speaker 5: try to establish or retain their political order in Gaza itself,
24:32
Speaker 5: and that tells me that they're not going to go
24:34
Speaker 5: without a fight, and that's something to pay close attention to.
24:38
Speaker 5: Then there is the political leadership, and I think there's
24:42
Speaker 5: two considerations here. One is that the money seems to
24:46
Speaker 5: be drying up. They're no longer getting Iranian money. I
24:50
Speaker 5: think the Qataris are questioning the value of continuing to
24:54
Speaker 5: sponsor them. It's really not done them much good in
24:57
Speaker 5: terms of their own international position, and they'll be under
25:00
Speaker 5: deep American pressure. So the money is drying up. Their
25:04
Speaker 5: capacity to influence what's going on in Israel is now
25:08
Speaker 5: drawing up because they've just handed their ace card back
25:11
Speaker 5: to the Israelis in the form of the hostages. So
25:14
Speaker 5: I think Hamas is facing its own existential moment, just
25:18
Speaker 5: as Hezbela is in Lebanon, and they're weak their willingness
25:24
Speaker 5: to sign up to the peace treaty is a demonstration
25:27
Speaker 5: of that weakness, and I think it's going to be
25:30
Speaker 5: very hard for them to rebuild that strength, not least
25:35
Speaker 5: because maybe this is the moment, Peter, when finally we'll
25:38
Speaker 5: see an expression from the Palestinian people that they too
25:42
Speaker 5: might like to move on from the domination of Hamas,
25:45
Speaker 5: which has been a terrible tyranny.
25:49
Speaker 3: You know.
25:49
Speaker 5: I like to say there's really been two groups of
25:52
Speaker 5: hostages in Gaza over the years. There's been the several
25:55
Speaker 5: hundred Israelis, but there's been perhaps more profoundly, over two
25:59
Speaker 5: million and gardens have been held hostage by Hamas, which
26:03
Speaker 5: is a death cult. And although they seem to have
26:07
Speaker 5: been very successful in brainwashing a large part of that
26:10
Speaker 5: Palestinian population, now there's a chance for the Palestinians to
26:14
Speaker 5: break themselves free from Hamas, and Trump needs to work
26:18
Speaker 5: quick to try and bring that sense of momentum into
26:21
Speaker 5: how Palestinians will feel about their situation.
26:27
Speaker 2: Look, many of them have lost family members, They've seen
26:29
Speaker 2: the devastation of their communities. I think it's going to
26:32
Speaker 2: need a lot of assistance from Muslim neighbors to get
26:37
Speaker 2: them to a position where we don't just have another
26:39
Speaker 2: generation of hatred bred into people after the last two years.
26:43
Speaker 2: And we're looking at those pictures there. Of course we
26:45
Speaker 2: can see the crowds there in Tel Aviv, but I'm
26:48
Speaker 2: delighted to see all these parents holding up young children
26:52
Speaker 2: so that there will be a point I hope in
26:54
Speaker 2: their lives they will see the day that peace came
26:57
Speaker 2: to Israel.
26:59
Speaker 3: I was there, I was a baby in my mother's arms.
27:02
Speaker 2: I was there when I witnessed the return of our
27:05
Speaker 2: people from Gaza. Let's hope that's what we're going to
27:08
Speaker 2: have out of this. Just before we go, I'm going
27:11
Speaker 2: to try also please and get my viewers an update.
27:14
Speaker 2: We have seven hostages back. We were expecting twenty. I've
27:19
Speaker 2: yet to get an update on that missing number of thirteen.
27:23
Speaker 2: We will get that when it comes to us here
27:25
Speaker 2: at Sky News. My producers are already chasing that information.
27:29
Speaker 2: Just before we go, Is there anything else, Peter, that
27:32
Speaker 2: you want to make comment of now in relation to
27:36
Speaker 2: this historic moment.
27:40
Speaker 5: Well, I know our Prime Minister is on holiday, but
27:43
Speaker 5: after two years of listening to the most execrable nonsense
27:46
Speaker 5: from the Australian government about the situation, now there is
27:50
Speaker 5: an opportunity for Australia to do something that might contribute
27:53
Speaker 5: to a meaningful peace process. The first thing to say,
27:57
Speaker 5: Peter is that there has been no Australian credit for
28:00
Speaker 5: the process that Trump has delivered. Trump went for peace
28:04
Speaker 5: first and he's going to look at recognition second. Australia
28:07
Speaker 5: went for recognition of Palestine first while a war was
28:10
Speaker 5: still being fought. It's the very opposite of what the
28:12
Speaker 5: Americans have done. And I think that helps to explain
28:15
Speaker 5: why our Prime minister is not in Egypt for the
28:19
Speaker 5: summit that's about to be held. But let's see what
28:22
Speaker 5: we can do in terms of peacekeeping Indonesia. President Braboo
28:26
Speaker 5: has said he'd like to be able to send twenty
28:28
Speaker 5: thousand troops. We can assist with that. So there's a
28:31
Speaker 5: role Australia could meaningful, meaningfully play, and I'd hope after
28:35
Speaker 5: all of the rhetoric we've heard, it would be nice
28:37
Speaker 5: if we were now prepared to do something of substance
28:40
Speaker 5: to try and cement this peace process.
28:44
Speaker 2: Well, I have confirmation from our producers that there are
28:47
Speaker 2: now the remaining hostages in that second group.
28:49
Speaker 3: You can see it on the screen.
28:50
Speaker 2: They have been released at least to Israel, to the IDF.
28:54
Speaker 2: I'm not sure whether they're in hospital care at this stage,
28:57
Speaker 2: but that is thirteen. It would see to me that
29:01
Speaker 2: that is the twenty as promised by the terrorist organization Hamas,
29:05
Speaker 2: but we'll wait for absolute confirmation of that. Let's bring
29:08
Speaker 2: in Greg Sheridan, the foreign editor of course, at the
29:10
Speaker 2: Australian newspaper. A moment in history, Greg Sheridan, let's have
29:15
Speaker 2: your reflections on what you're seeing unfold in Israel this
29:20
Speaker 2: morning of course their time, this evening, Australian time.
29:24
Speaker 6: Well, Peter, it's great to be with you and wonderful
29:27
Speaker 6: the witness a moment like this. It's a tremendous credit
29:30
Speaker 6: to Donald Trump. There's no doubt he deserves all the
29:32
Speaker 6: credit for this. He brought this about through the exercise
29:37
Speaker 6: of his will, through his influence with the Gulf Arabs
29:40
Speaker 6: and his influence with Israel. In acense, he gave Benjaminette
29:43
Speaker 6: and Yahoo compelling cover to resist, you know, smot Rich
29:48
Speaker 6: and ben gavere the extreme right wingers in his own
29:51
Speaker 6: government who didn't want this deal and to make peace.
29:56
Speaker 6: Having said that, however, I can't really be very optimistic
30:00
Speaker 6: about the situation. In order to get these twenty living hostages,
30:07
Speaker 6: Israel has released two thousand Palestinians, including two hundred and
30:12
Speaker 6: fifty who were in jail for very serious crimes, including
30:16
Speaker 6: multiple murders, multiple multiple murders. Now, that does set up
30:21
Speaker 6: the incentive that if you are a Palestinian terrorist and
30:24
Speaker 6: you get arrested by Israel doesn't have the death penalty,
30:26
Speaker 6: and you get tried and put in jail for a
30:28
Speaker 6: life sentence, a future hostage operation can win your freedom.
30:33
Speaker 6: So one of the sad lessons out of this war
30:35
Speaker 6: is how vulnerable democracies are to hostage operations. The other
30:40
Speaker 6: point where I'm not that optimistic really is I think, honestly,
30:43
Speaker 6: Indonesian President Praboo talking about twenty thousand peacekeepers, it's just
30:47
Speaker 6: it's like Chris Bowen talking about Net zero. You know,
30:50
Speaker 6: it's just not there's not the faintest chance anything like
30:53
Speaker 6: that will ever happen. I would be frankly surprised if
30:57
Speaker 6: any Arab nation actually deploy troops in any meaningful way,
31:01
Speaker 6: because in the end, they've got to say to themselves,
31:04
Speaker 6: are we willing to shoot and kill a Palestinian to
31:07
Speaker 6: protect an Israeli. That's what it means if you're keeping
31:10
Speaker 6: peace in Gaza. Now, I don't want to be the
31:13
Speaker 6: skunk at the party. This is a great day. Let's
31:15
Speaker 6: take the optimism where we can get it. It gives
31:18
Speaker 6: us a chance going forward. But I think the obstacles
31:20
Speaker 6: are still absolutely massive.
31:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think of the skunk of the party.
31:26
Speaker 2: I think we're all very realistic that it was Western aid,
31:29
Speaker 2: United Nations aid in large part that helped build the tunnels,
31:32
Speaker 2: that helped enable Hamas to do what it did and
31:36
Speaker 2: to plan with absolute precision the events of October seven,
31:40
Speaker 2: two years ago. So I think we have to be
31:42
Speaker 2: absolutely alive to all of that. We've been down this
31:44
Speaker 2: path greg many times before. But what's different this time
31:50
Speaker 2: against the previous episodes of wars in the Middle East
31:54
Speaker 2: involving Israel, of course, is the world. The Western world
31:57
Speaker 2: in particular, has stood with Israel.
32:00
Speaker 3: This time. It's torn apart.
32:02
Speaker 2: Our suburban streets and our CBDs and our university campuses,
32:07
Speaker 2: and it's seen the return of anti Semitism to Australia,
32:12
Speaker 2: to Britain, to the United States in a way that
32:14
Speaker 2: many of us could not even fathom.
32:17
Speaker 3: Two or three years ago.
32:18
Speaker 2: So I guess that's the challenge is not just for
32:22
Speaker 2: Israel's sake and the world's sake to make this a
32:25
Speaker 2: lasting peace, but for Australia's sake, to be honest. And
32:29
Speaker 2: how do we make that happen. How do we ensure
32:31
Speaker 2: that the money goes to the people that need it
32:34
Speaker 2: on the ground, that it's not used for terrorism again?
32:36
Speaker 2: And how are we so confident? Can we be confident
32:40
Speaker 2: that the regime that will run Gaza, you forget your committee,
32:43
Speaker 2: because that'll come and go, that the regime that runs
32:46
Speaker 2: Gaza is not going to be hum Us by another name.
32:52
Speaker 6: Well, Peter, I think you're asking absolutely the right questions.
32:56
Speaker 6: So there's a balance sheet here. The good guys have
32:58
Speaker 6: achieved a lot. The regional dynamics have changed, As Peter
33:03
Speaker 6: Jennings pointed out, Iran, HESBLA, and Syria are largely now
33:08
Speaker 6: eliminated as threats to Israel, although Iran is quickly trying
33:11
Speaker 6: to replenish its stocks and is going down the nuclear
33:14
Speaker 6: road again. And the Gulf Arabs have been a bit
33:19
Speaker 6: terrified by what they've unleashed, or what Katar has helped
33:23
Speaker 6: unleashed by backing Hammas historically, and so under a combination
33:28
Speaker 6: of Trump's connection and that Israeli strike into Qatar and
33:33
Speaker 6: so on, they've actually got a bit closer to Israel.
33:37
Speaker 6: So that's a great thing. So the regional dynamics have changed,
33:41
Speaker 6: and Hamas has been dealt a tremendous military defeat. So
33:45
Speaker 6: those are things you can put in the positive ledger,
33:48
Speaker 6: But what can you put in the negative ledger? Hummas
33:52
Speaker 6: has succeeded in a number of its strategic objectives in
33:56
Speaker 6: this terrible war. It breaks my heart to say that.
33:59
Speaker 6: I bleed to say, but it's true. First of all,
34:02
Speaker 6: they stopped Saudi Arabia and Israel from establishing diplomatic relations
34:08
Speaker 6: that was just about to occur before the October seven
34:12
Speaker 6: terrorist atrocities. They've derailed that probably for quite a long time.
34:17
Speaker 6: Second of all, they have, as you rightly observed, Peter,
34:22
Speaker 6: through their actions, they have provoked the greatest and most
34:25
Speaker 6: disgusting wave of anti Semitism we have seen in decades
34:29
Speaker 6: and decades. And the only Western nation which has really
34:33
Speaker 6: stood absolutely four square with Israel has been Donald Trump.
34:38
Speaker 6: The Trump administration in the United States. Australia has behaved
34:42
Speaker 6: with a combination of fatuousness, incompetence and betrayal. In all this,
34:48
Speaker 6: the Muslim populations in Western nations have changed the internal
34:52
Speaker 6: dynamics in the outlook of governments towards Israel. And from
34:58
Speaker 6: Hammas's point of view, we don't care that the Palestinian
35:01
Speaker 6: people have suffered two years of terrible destruction because it
35:05
Speaker 6: has really hurt Israel, and it's hurt Israel in a
35:07
Speaker 6: way that previous operations haven't because it's had to be
35:11
Speaker 6: so sustained. And then the third thing that they've achieved
35:14
Speaker 6: is Gaza is once more back in the center of
35:18
Speaker 6: global news, and everybody is going to have to stump
35:21
Speaker 6: up money, the Gulf Arabs and the poor old Australian
35:23
Speaker 6: taxpayer and everybody else is going to have to stump
35:26
Speaker 6: up money to rebuild Gaza. Now we'll hum Us steal
35:31
Speaker 6: some of that aid to rebuild weapons al most certainly,
35:35
Speaker 6: And if it's not hum Us, it might be Palestinian
35:37
Speaker 6: islamicj Had or one of the other little terrorst splinter groups.
35:41
Speaker 6: I think eventually the Israelis want to be rid of
35:45
Speaker 6: the Palestinians. They want a Palestinian state, but that can
35:49
Speaker 6: only happen. Now, after decades of normalization, you're going to
35:52
Speaker 6: have to have Palestinian administrations which can police their own extremists,
35:58
Speaker 6: guarantee Israel's security and run a normal society. And Israel
36:02
Speaker 6: tries to do this again and again and again, and
36:04
Speaker 6: the likes of Anthony Alberizi and Penny Woe constantly paint
36:08
Speaker 6: Israel as the obstacle to peace. But there was a
36:11
Speaker 6: cease fire before October seven. Israel was allowing Kata to
36:15
Speaker 6: give billions of dollars a year in aid to Gaza.
36:18
Speaker 6: Israel was allowing thousands of Gazans to come and work
36:21
Speaker 6: in Israel proper. Israel wanted nothing more than the establishment
36:25
Speaker 6: of a bourgeois life in Gaza and the West Bank
36:30
Speaker 6: in order to normalize the situation. Now today is a
36:34
Speaker 6: very optimistic day, and we've got new dynamics in the region.
36:37
Speaker 6: But to get past a situation where Hamas or its
36:40
Speaker 6: successor doesn't steal the aid again, doesn't regroup, and in
36:44
Speaker 6: two years doesn't start firing rockets again at Israel, that's
36:48
Speaker 6: going to be very, very challenging.
36:52
Speaker 3: Greg.
36:52
Speaker 2: I'm going to bring in tunny Abit in just before
36:55
Speaker 2: I do, and this is off the topic of the
36:57
Speaker 2: Middle East. But just quickly in the United Kingdom there's
37:01
Speaker 2: been the abandonment of the investigation into allegations of senior
37:08
Speaker 2: political staff connected to the Prime Minister of Britain and
37:12
Speaker 2: in and around the government bureaucracy involved in it said
37:18
Speaker 2: spying for Beijing. Now, the allegation or the information out
37:23
Speaker 2: today was that they were not able to provide that
37:26
Speaker 2: information to authorities.
37:27
Speaker 3: They weren't able to say whether they.
37:29
Speaker 2: Thought that China was a strategic challenge to the United Kingdom,
37:36
Speaker 2: and so they've walked away from the politics there, the
37:38
Speaker 2: politics of the investigation. Obviously, what's your thoughts on this,
37:42
Speaker 2: because this is a concerning development and that reports are
37:45
Speaker 2: today that the Trump administration has raised this with ten
37:49
Speaker 2: Downing Street.
37:51
Speaker 6: Well, this is an absolute debarkle on the part of
37:54
Speaker 6: the Brits.
37:54
Speaker 3: You know.
37:55
Speaker 6: The Economist magazine described the Stama government last week as
38:00
Speaker 6: just being completely aimless. It is an aimless government and
38:05
Speaker 6: this is a shocking, a shocking breakdown in basic security.
38:10
Speaker 6: One interpretation which is being widely put in the British
38:12
Speaker 6: media is that the British government is so much on
38:16
Speaker 6: its knees economically and everything that it simply didn't want
38:19
Speaker 6: to offend China by designating it as a strategic challenge
38:23
Speaker 6: or a strategic enemy. Now, if espionage legislation is so
38:28
Speaker 6: loose that you've got to designate someone formally as an
38:30
Speaker 6: enemy before you can prosecute allegations of spying for them,
38:36
Speaker 6: then the Brits need to smarten up their legislation quick smart.
38:40
Speaker 6: But this has the stench of British weakness being unwilling
38:45
Speaker 6: to offend Beijing, of the Starma government just being all
38:50
Speaker 6: over the shop at sixes and sevens. Dear God, They've
38:53
Speaker 6: got years of their term to run, They've got a
38:56
Speaker 6: massive parliamentary majority, and they look like they're hanging on
39:00
Speaker 6: by their fingernails. And this, you know, this has to
39:03
Speaker 6: be seen also in the light of their moves against Israel.
39:07
Speaker 6: They've surrendered in large measure to the extremists on their streets,
39:12
Speaker 6: not totally, but in substantial measure. And now they can't
39:16
Speaker 6: even prosecute an espion arge case which involves China because
39:19
Speaker 6: that's too sensitive. This is a very poor look for
39:24
Speaker 6: the Brits.
39:27
Speaker 2: Oliver there, thank you very much, Grigg Shridan, if you
39:29
Speaker 2: are joining us now, of course, we have live rolling
39:32
Speaker 2: coverage of the events out of Israel. It's morning time
39:36
Speaker 2: in Israel at the moment you can see footage there
39:38
Speaker 2: of the Tel Aviv Square hostage square. It's called Israelis
39:43
Speaker 2: are waiting there for news and further detail about their
39:46
Speaker 2: own who have returned from the hellhole of the guards
39:50
Speaker 2: and tunnels. You know initially that seven hostages were first freed.
39:54
Speaker 2: They've had medical attention with the Red Cross, and we
39:56
Speaker 2: understand that they will be some of those that President Trump,
40:00
Speaker 2: who has landed at Bengurian Airport now left the tarmac.
40:04
Speaker 3: Will meet.
40:04
Speaker 2: But it will be we are told, a private meeting,
40:07
Speaker 2: not for media consumption. I think that is as it
40:10
Speaker 2: should be. And of course we've had now confirmation that
40:13
Speaker 2: the final number totally the twenty, so another thirteen have
40:18
Speaker 2: been released. They are with the Red Cross. We have
40:21
Speaker 2: no further detail as to their health. I don't imagine
40:25
Speaker 2: they are in great shape. We know that some of
40:28
Speaker 2: them were coming back in earlier times having lost half
40:31
Speaker 2: of their body weight. And of course, once we have
40:34
Speaker 2: twenty Israelis or Jewish hostages returned. My thoughts and prayers
40:40
Speaker 2: and I think yours are too to the families who
40:43
Speaker 2: are waiting the remains of those they love who did
40:47
Speaker 2: not survive being held hostage, and will be bodily remains
40:53
Speaker 2: that are returned for a proper and dignified burial. Let's
40:57
Speaker 2: bring in our former Prime Minister, Tony Abbott joins me.
41:00
Speaker 2: We will talk Tony about your documentary. It's screening tonight
41:05
Speaker 2: live here at seven thirty pm. It's not live, it's
41:08
Speaker 2: a documentary, but you'll get it here at Sky on
41:10
Speaker 2: this channel at seven thirty.
41:13
Speaker 3: That will definitely be on.
41:14
Speaker 2: But before we get to talk about that, I have
41:17
Speaker 2: to get your reflections on what is an historic day,
41:21
Speaker 2: as I've said, not just for the Middle East, not
41:23
Speaker 2: just for Israel, but for the whole world.
41:28
Speaker 7: Peter, obviously, this is a moment of unalloyed joy for
41:33
Speaker 7: the families of the hostages. The hostages should never have
41:37
Speaker 7: had to endure two years of captivity. What happened on
41:41
Speaker 7: October the seventh was an utter barbarity and atrocity, almost
41:46
Speaker 7: beyond words. All credit to President Trump for his efforts.
41:51
Speaker 7: I really think that the key to all of this
41:53
Speaker 7: has been the unremitting pressure that Bibi Netta Yahoo has
41:58
Speaker 7: kept up on Israel's enemy, and to me, I think
42:02
Speaker 7: the most critical intervention of all, on top of everything else,
42:06
Speaker 7: such as the exploding pages and walkie talkies, the demolition
42:10
Speaker 7: of the Iranian air defenses, the attacks on Yemen, etc.
42:14
Speaker 7: The Coudi Grara, if you like, was the Israeli attack
42:19
Speaker 7: on Doha itself where the Hamas leadership was meeting. And
42:25
Speaker 7: I think what that indicated to the Gulf States, particular
42:28
Speaker 7: to Qatar, was that the game was up, that there
42:33
Speaker 7: was no more cost free way to support a mass
42:37
Speaker 7: So I think it's that utter, relentless determination of bibin
42:42
Speaker 7: At Nyahu to ensure that all of Israel's enemies have
42:47
Speaker 7: been humiliated that's brought about this happy day. Now. All
42:51
Speaker 7: of the points that have been made by people like
42:53
Speaker 7: Greg Sheridan and others are correct. In the end, Hamas
42:58
Speaker 7: does need to be disarmed, a more decent and humane
43:04
Speaker 7: administration in Gaza has to be established. There's now an
43:10
Speaker 7: incipient civil war between different factions in Gaza. There's been
43:16
Speaker 7: serious gun fighting between Hamas and other strong forces. I
43:21
Speaker 7: hope that the other strong forces get the upper hand,
43:26
Speaker 7: but let's hope if they do, they turn out to
43:29
Speaker 7: be a group that's prepared to accept Israel's right to
43:32
Speaker 7: exist behind secure borders, and I do share Greg's skepticism
43:38
Speaker 7: about the willingness of the Arab States to get involved.
43:42
Speaker 7: Let's face it, the best solution all along to this
43:46
Speaker 7: would have been if Egypt had resumed control of Gaza
43:50
Speaker 7: as it had pre nineteen sixty seven, and if Jordan
43:54
Speaker 7: resumed control of those parts of the West Bank which
43:58
Speaker 7: are not Israeli settlements. That would have been by far
44:02
Speaker 7: the best outcome. But for some reason, there appears to
44:06
Speaker 7: be this deep reluctance on the part of Israel and
44:11
Speaker 7: Jordan to exercise what I would have thought would have
44:14
Speaker 7: been the responsibilities of decent countries who want peace in
44:22
Speaker 7: a troubled part of the world.
44:26
Speaker 2: I guess the challenge here will be for the Surti
44:30
Speaker 2: nations we have discussed that will meet at Charmel Shak
44:33
Speaker 2: with President Trump after he speaks to the Knesset, which
44:37
Speaker 2: is juet about at seven o'clock Australian time seven pm
44:40
Speaker 2: Australian time.
44:41
Speaker 3: His address.
44:43
Speaker 2: These what I would call relatively global citizens, these nations
44:51
Speaker 2: who have supported President Trump, the United States and Israel. Obviously,
44:55
Speaker 2: to get to this position where they are today, that
44:57
Speaker 2: they come in behind the normalization of Gaza, because we
45:02
Speaker 2: know when refugees were fleeing in the early stages of
45:06
Speaker 2: this war, Australia took three thousand. No one in the
45:11
Speaker 2: neighboring area were taking anybody from Gaza. They are concerned
45:16
Speaker 2: about growing terrorism outbreaks in their countries, absolutely justifiably so.
45:22
Speaker 2: But we need the Suri Muslim global types, if I
45:27
Speaker 2: can call them that, to really now put their throat
45:31
Speaker 2: on the Shia Muslims who are into radical Islam and
45:35
Speaker 2: jihadism if we have any hope of the world turning
45:39
Speaker 2: the corner. Because the United Nations is weak. The United
45:43
Speaker 2: Nations just met in New York. It had no resolution
45:46
Speaker 2: of this issue. It cout out and recognized Palestine. That
45:51
Speaker 2: did not get us to where we are today. Standing
45:54
Speaker 2: firm in the defense of Israel and the values of
45:58
Speaker 2: Israel and the values of the broader world. That's what's
46:02
Speaker 2: held firm and that's precisely why Donald Trump was able
46:06
Speaker 2: to do what Joe Biden couldn't do, and what Tony
46:09
Speaker 2: Blair and sorry, Keir Starmer and our own Prime minister
46:13
Speaker 2: could not do. So how do we move beyond this,
46:17
Speaker 2: so that we don't just return hostages, but have a
46:20
Speaker 2: situation like this in ten or fifteen years time.
46:22
Speaker 7: Tony, Well, exactly right, Peter, Hamas have got to be eliminated.
46:31
Speaker 7: No one can be in control of Gaza and the
46:35
Speaker 7: West Bank that is essentially a death cult dedicated to
46:40
Speaker 7: the utter and total destruction of Israel. Otherwise, this is just,
46:46
Speaker 7: if you like, a truce, a temporary piece, an aberration.
46:51
Speaker 7: If we do not permanently see the end of death
46:56
Speaker 7: cult control of Gaza, well it's not finished. It's not done.
47:02
Speaker 7: And really, if I may dwell on the domestic situation
47:07
Speaker 7: for a second, what is wrong with our country and
47:10
Speaker 7: our people that those who were demonstrating vociferously and almost
47:16
Speaker 7: constantly on our streets these last two years, they never
47:19
Speaker 7: demanded the release of the hostages. They never demanded nende
47:23
Speaker 7: Hamas rule, They never demanded that Hamas recognize Israel's right
47:28
Speaker 7: to exist. In the end, all of this was just
47:32
Speaker 7: relentlessly anti Israel. Effectively, it was due hatred, and I
47:38
Speaker 7: hope a lot of these people feel ashamed of themselves. Frankly,
47:44
Speaker 7: I know.
47:44
Speaker 2: You've got your book behind you will talk about your
47:46
Speaker 2: documentary in a moment. But you know one of the standouts,
47:50
Speaker 2: and your book and you talk about a lot of
47:53
Speaker 2: episodes in Australian history, but you celebrate a lot of individuals.
47:57
Speaker 2: And I always think of John Monash, brilliant great War
48:02
Speaker 2: Australian general, of course, who later on came to Victoria
48:06
Speaker 2: and opened up the coal seams of the Latroe Valley
48:08
Speaker 2: and set the whole country up for the prosperity that
48:13
Speaker 2: came after that. I think of him as a great Australian.
48:16
Speaker 2: And when he died, the streets were lined in Melbourne
48:19
Speaker 2: of Australian's raw walks of life, paying thank you to
48:23
Speaker 2: this great man who just happened to be Jewish. So
48:27
Speaker 2: can we put the genie back in the bottle, Tony?
48:29
Speaker 2: Can we put to bed and remove that scourge, that
48:33
Speaker 2: stain of anti Semitism from our Australian community, Because you're
48:38
Speaker 2: right to point out about the protesters.
48:39
Speaker 3: They are out there on the weekend.
48:41
Speaker 2: They're saying that they will not abate, that they will
48:43
Speaker 2: keep going. They've got everything they wanted to out of
48:46
Speaker 2: this last couple of years. Can we go back to
48:51
Speaker 2: the Australia that we had pre October seventh.
48:58
Speaker 7: Well, I do think that has to be our hope
49:01
Speaker 7: and our expectation. And one of the disappointing things to me, Peter,
49:06
Speaker 7: has been the way Australian governments, with the partial exception
49:11
Speaker 7: perhaps of the New South Wales government, have been reluctant
49:14
Speaker 7: to take strong action against these protests, which haven't been
49:20
Speaker 7: an exercise in free speech. They have essentially been an
49:23
Speaker 7: exercise in intimidation of Jewish Australians. And I think that frankly,
49:30
Speaker 7: the bulk of the Australian people would like to see
49:33
Speaker 7: the police in charge of our streets. They would like
49:36
Speaker 7: to see the governments in control of our streets, not
49:40
Speaker 7: these at times violent but constantly intimidatory pro Hamas quasi
49:51
Speaker 7: Marxist protest movements. So let's hope we've seen the end
49:56
Speaker 7: of all of this, and let's hope there's a bit
49:58
Speaker 7: of serious rethinks thinking. One of the points that you've
50:02
Speaker 7: made from time to time, Peter, in your broadcasts and
50:07
Speaker 7: columns is we need the Muslim leadership in this country
50:12
Speaker 7: to say, look, enough is enough. Jewish people have a
50:18
Speaker 7: right to exist. Israel has a right to exist by
50:22
Speaker 7: all means. Disagree, but disagree civilly, And what I hope
50:28
Speaker 7: will grow out of what we've seen over the last
50:33
Speaker 7: little while is an appreciation by Muslims everywhere that other
50:40
Speaker 7: religions have rights, other faiths and nations have rights. This
50:48
Speaker 7: idea of death to the infidel has been an absolute
50:52
Speaker 7: blight on Islam. It's been an absolute blight on the
50:55
Speaker 7: Middle East. And let's hope a lot of people here
50:59
Speaker 7: and around the world wake up to that.
51:04
Speaker 2: Yes, well, i'd like to hope that you've, you know,
51:08
Speaker 2: put some sense into some hearts that are watching around
51:11
Speaker 2: the country tonight. But you and I were both there
51:14
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan at a service to basically hand back Taran Kott,
51:19
Speaker 2: the Australian base to the Afghani people. And we saw
51:24
Speaker 2: there not so long after that, when the United States
51:26
Speaker 2: left in an appalling fashion under Joe Biden, just how
51:31
Speaker 2: intrench now the Taliban is, and how all the rights
51:34
Speaker 2: for women have been absolutely eroded, and rights for citizens
51:37
Speaker 2: across the board.
51:38
Speaker 3: So I hope you're right. I hope I'm wrong.
51:40
Speaker 2: But I watch with trepidation now the documentary seven thirty tonight.
51:45
Speaker 2: I know it has been like the book a labor
51:49
Speaker 2: of love. I know that everyone watching tonight is going
51:52
Speaker 2: to tune in at seven thirty and many more as well.
51:56
Speaker 2: Tell us why it was so important to you to
52:00
Speaker 2: write this book and to tell this story as we'll
52:05
Speaker 2: see tonight.
52:09
Speaker 7: Well, Peter, I think we are a great country, and
52:13
Speaker 7: I think too often in recent times we have underestimated ourselves.
52:17
Speaker 7: We've focused on the unfortunate aspects of our history, which
52:22
Speaker 7: are relatively few and far between, and not on the
52:25
Speaker 7: great achievement of the Australian nation. Let's never forget that
52:30
Speaker 7: within one hundred years of seventeen eighty eight that bedraggled
52:33
Speaker 7: group of convicts had become a pioneer in democratic freedom
52:41
Speaker 7: and have produced the world's highest stand of living, and
52:45
Speaker 7: towards the end of the eighteen hundreds in South Australia
52:50
Speaker 7: and elsewhere, we had a full adult suffrage for men
52:55
Speaker 7: and for women. Aboriginal people could vote, with a few
52:59
Speaker 7: restrictions in Queensland and Western Australia, to be sure, but nevertheless,
53:04
Speaker 7: this is an incredible achievement, and along the way we
53:09
Speaker 7: produced some wonderful people, not just Governor Phillip, but people
53:13
Speaker 7: like the first Attorney General of New South Wales, John Plankett,
53:17
Speaker 7: who prosecuted the Mile Creek massacre perpetrators. We need to
53:22
Speaker 7: remember these heroes who have produced modern Australia, which, above
53:26
Speaker 7: all else, from that day to this is a country
53:29
Speaker 7: where people can come from anywhere and get a fair go,
53:33
Speaker 7: particularly where they're prepared to have a go.
53:38
Speaker 2: I just want to see everyone buy these for Christmas presents,
53:41
Speaker 2: particularly if you've got a young person in your life,
53:44
Speaker 2: and if they're not going to read it, Grandma or grandpa,
53:46
Speaker 2: Mom and dad aren't and uncle, get the book and
53:49
Speaker 2: read it to them, because I want them to have
53:51
Speaker 2: a balanced affair and a positive view of our country,
53:56
Speaker 2: in our country's history, because they are, as you know,
53:58
Speaker 2: Tony Abbott, our future. I know it's been a labor
54:01
Speaker 2: of love as i've seen it, and I know you're
54:03
Speaker 2: around to you know, you're a bit like though the
54:07
Speaker 2: bridegroom or something on that just before the wedding service,
54:11
Speaker 2: that you want it all to go well. You want
54:13
Speaker 2: it to come off very very cleanly and to be
54:16
Speaker 2: well supported. I hope that absolutely happens. I know you're
54:19
Speaker 2: at a book launch, I know you've got to go,
54:20
Speaker 2: but I really thank you for joining me tonight. Tony
54:23
Speaker 2: Avas documentary seven thirty tonight and tomorrow night and concluding
54:27
Speaker 2: of course on Wednesday. Do not miss it, and please
54:32
Speaker 2: get that book and read it to people. Read it yourself,
54:35
Speaker 2: but read it to young people in your life. And
54:37
Speaker 2: let's change the way we think about our country. Let's
54:41
Speaker 2: go now to Jerusalem. We'll cross live to Israel and
54:46
Speaker 2: we'll speak with a former Israeli Ambassador to Australia, Mark Sofa. Well, Mark,
54:52
Speaker 2: i am really delighted to have your company on this
54:55
Speaker 2: huge day for your people and your country. What the
55:00
Speaker 2: mood on the ground like in Jerusalem.
55:04
Speaker 8: Well, you can see from the pictures from the hostage
55:07
Speaker 8: square and here in Jerusalem too as well, which less
55:10
Speaker 8: on the television screens, the elation, the feeling of utter
55:15
Speaker 8: joy at the release of the hostages. The one groups,
55:18
Speaker 8: as you know, has already been released on the second
55:21
Speaker 8: is already as far as we understand, the hands of
55:24
Speaker 8: the Red Cross.
55:25
Speaker 4: So yes, it's a day of joy, it's a day
55:27
Speaker 4: of elation.
55:29
Speaker 8: We're grappling now, of course, with the landing, the arrival
55:35
Speaker 8: of Donald Trump in Israel just a few about half
55:37
Speaker 8: an hour ago or so, and the release of the
55:41
Speaker 8: hostages at the same time, and the trepidation that the hostage,
55:44
Speaker 8: the situation of the hostages. We're being released it will
55:48
Speaker 8: be hopefully physically but not only physically, perhaps even more
55:52
Speaker 8: importantly mentally well, and nobody really knows at this stage.
56:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will just dwell for a moment on the
56:03
Speaker 2: mental anguish, because there's been two reports of suicide in
56:07
Speaker 2: the last couple of days, haven't there a mother of
56:11
Speaker 2: someone who was killed in the terror attacks, unable to
56:16
Speaker 2: continue anymore? And of course someone else who was who
56:21
Speaker 2: watched his partner killed as I understand at the Nova festival,
56:25
Speaker 2: who took his own life. And you know, we've got
56:28
Speaker 2: the usual information there for Lifeline or anyone else who
56:31
Speaker 2: is affected by this information. But you know there are
56:35
Speaker 2: all of the mental scars that will say with I
56:38
Speaker 2: think all Israelies, if I'm honest, Mark, not just the
56:41
Speaker 2: people involved obviously this at a personal level, but with
56:44
Speaker 2: everyone in your country. Long after they returned to some
56:48
Speaker 2: sort of physical health, I think the mental health will
56:50
Speaker 2: be there.
56:52
Speaker 4: I think you one hundred percent correct.
56:54
Speaker 8: The physical health the one way or another, will be
56:57
Speaker 8: treated in the hospitals and hopefully all returned to good
57:00
Speaker 8: health in a physical sense. I think that trauma, the psychiatric,
57:04
Speaker 8: the psychological trauma from the hostages themselves and their families.
57:10
Speaker 8: As you mentioned so correctly, we have not only the
57:13
Speaker 8: twenty hostages, the live hostages now being released as you
57:17
Speaker 8: can see on your screen right now, but twenty eight
57:20
Speaker 8: bodies will be coming back now. At the same time,
57:23
Speaker 8: the twenty seven men and one woman, and the families
57:28
Speaker 8: of course are in terrible, terrible anguish. They were taken alive,
57:33
Speaker 8: they were shot, they were killed. The live ones have
57:35
Speaker 8: been languishing in in horrendous conditions for the last two years.
57:40
Speaker 8: So the trauma is not just on the people, it's
57:42
Speaker 8: not on the families themselves. It's not just on the
57:45
Speaker 8: hostages themselves, but on the entire family system. The suicide
57:50
Speaker 8: of the young man whose partner was killed in the
57:55
Speaker 8: Nova attack on the seventh of October two twenty three,
58:01
Speaker 8: chose just two years later, after he had been receiving
58:05
Speaker 8: NonStop psychiatric and psychological treatment. Two years later, he wasn't
58:11
Speaker 8: unable to take anymore and shot him and killed himself.
58:15
Speaker 8: And this is going to be multiplied and multiplied, and
58:18
Speaker 8: it just has to be looked at. It might take
58:20
Speaker 8: a decade, It may take whole lifetimes for so many
58:23
Speaker 8: of them.
58:24
Speaker 2: Yes, look, two quick questions. Of course, we've got the
58:28
Speaker 2: president who'll spak at the Cadescat. I'm interested in your
58:31
Speaker 2: take on his reception there. But also the people that
58:36
Speaker 2: will be released from Israeli prison. How is that being
58:40
Speaker 2: taken politically given some of them are in there for
58:44
Speaker 2: terrible crimes.
58:47
Speaker 4: All of them are in now started the second.
58:49
Speaker 8: All of them are in there for terrible crimes, some
58:52
Speaker 8: of them worse and some of them with having killed
58:56
Speaker 8: less people, but all of them are in there for
58:58
Speaker 8: terrible crimes. The price, I think there are two ways
59:02
Speaker 8: of looking at the One way is courced. The way
59:04
Speaker 8: the government is handling it, which I'm not a fan
59:07
Speaker 8: of this government, and I've never hidden that. But the
59:08
Speaker 8: fact of the matter is the government obviously has an interest,
59:11
Speaker 8: and that's normal. I think for any country around, any
59:13
Speaker 8: government around the world, as an interest in sort of
59:16
Speaker 8: keeping that part of it as little covered as possible
59:19
Speaker 8: and discuss everything else. And that's normal, and I'm not
59:22
Speaker 8: I have no complaints about that. But of course there
59:26
Speaker 8: are people whose loved ones have been killed by many
59:29
Speaker 8: of the those who are being released right now.
59:32
Speaker 4: It's a very difficult time, but that and I think here.
59:35
Speaker 8: Everybody in israelis in agreement with everybody, and this is
59:37
Speaker 8: a consensus in a country where there is no consensus
59:41
Speaker 8: on almost anything. Everybody agrees that it is a price
59:45
Speaker 8: that had to be paid, has to be paid to
59:47
Speaker 8: get the hostages out and a cease fire or the
59:51
Speaker 8: end of the war, whatever it is. As far as
59:54
Speaker 8: your first part of the question is concerned about President Trump, well,
59:57
Speaker 8: he's as you can see, and not everybody was pat
1:00:00
Speaker 8: tally love with President Trump until recently. They had the
1:00:03
Speaker 8: differences of opinion around him. But today he is the hero.
1:00:07
Speaker 8: He is the person who has brought this agreement together.
1:00:12
Speaker 8: Everybody looks at him with great reverence. He will be
1:00:16
Speaker 8: received here with enormous respect and honor, not just in
1:00:20
Speaker 8: the Knesset, but in the public. You saw, I don't
1:00:22
Speaker 8: know if you saw on Australian television Vitkoff and the
1:00:26
Speaker 8: direct kushni Is speaking at the hostage square the other day,
1:00:30
Speaker 8: where they were received with such great.
1:00:33
Speaker 4: Respect and honor.
1:00:35
Speaker 8: I think that's the feeling of everybody, left, right and
1:00:38
Speaker 8: center here in Israel that Trump has achieved this that
1:00:42
Speaker 8: Trump has been the driving force behind it, and there's
1:00:46
Speaker 8: a lot of good will towards him here in the
1:00:49
Speaker 8: entire country.
1:00:50
Speaker 2: I will thank you Mark. So far I will leave
1:00:53
Speaker 2: you there. We want to stay across obviously what technique Israel,
1:00:56
Speaker 2: and of course we will cross live with the Knesset,
1:00:58
Speaker 2: where we expect the President to speak. Thank you, Thank
1:01:01
Speaker 2: you Mark, Mark Sopher there of course, a former Israeli
1:01:04
Speaker 2: ambassador to Australia.
1:01:06
Speaker 3: That's it for me.
1:01:07
Speaker 2: Rolling coverage though all night until seven thirty when the
1:01:10
Speaker 2: Abbott documentary will be broadcast for the first time.
1:01:13
Speaker 3: Here is it. James McPherson