Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Identity and Motherhood with Pro Athlete Majka Burhardt | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 11

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Identity and Motherhood with Pro Athlete Majka Burhardt | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 11 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: We are so glad you're here.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: The messy, the hilarious, the ugly, the challenging, the amazing, the beautiful, the really effed up, all that stuff.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: We've got it here for you.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: We bring to you our own personal experience as moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Bring your friends.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: We've got you.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Come mother with us.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: I am so excited to share with you about the woman we interviewed this week.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: Her name is Micah Bernhard, and she is a professional rock climber.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: She's a social entrepreneur, an author, a filmmaker, and a mother of twins.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: This interview was not only inspiring because she's obviously a total badass, but she is deeply vulnerable and shared with us so many little nuggets of her journey and how she has adjusted to her role as a mother while still holding her footing as a badass mountaineer.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: It was really fun to talk to her.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: My heart opened like a million times bigger just listening to her story.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: And I just am so excited for you to be touched by her as well.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoy the show.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Not only do Deb and I love jewelry, but we are very, very passionate and committed to supporting brands and businesses that are local and small and intentional.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Leela Inspired is a jewelry company that stands for three important pillars create, connect, and explore.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Their jewelry actually has meaning behind it and it feels good to wear.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: Not only is it beautiful, but it's inspiring.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: We want you to check it out.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Leelainspired.com, go to our show notes and find a code for a special discount.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: You will feel so good in this jewelry.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: And side note, you'll look good too.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: My friends, every important thing I have done in my life has had before its leap a ton of fear, uncertainty, kind of that frozenness that happens when we're right at the edge of something and we're not quite sure whether or not to take that leap.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Every single thing I've done that's been meaningful has had that moment before it.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: I am really excited to be offering this year-long program with my dear friend and leadership coach Ashley Wick called Take the Leap.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: It is a year of support, encouragement, platform, mindset, strategy to actually get you from here to there.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: I really want to invite you to come join us because this is a really exciting time and you're at the verge of something.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: If you want to learn more, if you're ready to apply, go on to my website.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: Link is in the show notes, and learn what the next steps are.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: This launches on April 5th, and I'm telling you, good things are to come.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to see what's up for you in this next year of your life.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Come join us.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Can't wait to see you there.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone, this is Deb.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: As you may know, I have a huge passion for self-discovery and growth, and I love nothing more than helping others evolve into their own unique ways.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: As mothers, we have a deep intuition that can sometimes feel muddled with time.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: In the Mother Daughter Journey workshops for moms, I focus on honoring and helping participants to come back to that intuition while also equipping you with some powerful tools to help strengthen that beautiful mother-daughter bond.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: I just launched my April and May group, so check them out on my website, motherdaughterjourney.co.
3:53
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to work with you.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: Hi, Deb.
3:55
SPEAKER_02: Hi, Kate.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: Happy Podcast Day.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: Happy Podcast Day.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: We have such an amazing woman here today, and I'm so excited to introduce her.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: This is Micah Bernhardt, who is a conservational entrepreneur, professional athlete, which is just so badass, author, film producer, and above all, a mother of twins.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: And I got inspired by Micah because of her amazing book, which I'm going to let her speak about.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: But we want to just have her on this interview to learn about your story, Micah.
4:29
SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to turn it over to you and will you please introduce yourselves to yourself?
4:34
SPEAKER_02: You just have one to our listeners.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so nice to be here with you both today.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Kate and Deb.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, as you said, my name is Mike Burhart and I am a mama and I run an uh organization called Logato that disrupts conservation to build climate justice.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: And I also am a professional climber and someone who's trying to figure out how to put all those things together and not let go of them and do them all well in the world.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: Which is not easy.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: That's like totally easy.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: And Micah, you are located in California, is that right?
5:09
SPEAKER_00: No, I live in New Hampshire.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: So I live in the mountains of New Hampshire.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: So I used to live in Colorado and Boulder and S's Park, and I've lived in New Hampshire now for you know a decade plus.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: East Coaster.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like it.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, gosh.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, see, when you said that, I had this reaction because I'm like, no, I'm not really an import to the new to the um the East Coast.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: Can we say that?
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and isn't it so funny how we get like so intimately and personally attached to different places that we've lived or been raised?
5:37
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in New York City and there is a part of me that's like once a New Yorker or is a New Yorker, even if I prefer to live in Colorado.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
5:45
SPEAKER_02: Did you grow up in Estes Park?
5:48
SPEAKER_00: No, I grew up in Minnesota.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I grew up in Minneapolis.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: When I say Minnesota, I think people can probably hear it.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, I grew up in Minneapolis and then my life as a climber took me to Colorado to move to Estes Park.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: I've um so I moved to Estes when I was 21 and I lived there for seven years, and then I lived in Boulder for seven years and then moved out east.
6:06
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: So I I just personal story around me is I was a diehard climber for about a decade.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: It was all I lived, drank, everything.
6:17
SPEAKER_02: It was it was my whole identity.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: And I know the lifestyle of being so committed to that sport.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: And so that's what drew me to you.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: Of your story is so profound because, and I might be projecting here, but that lifestyle can be so self-consumed and partner consumed and you know, really hard to tie down.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: And so how that relates to motherhood is just so profound.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: So I would love to invite you to tell us about that transition if we can just such a great way to put it, Deb.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: I think that um climbing is amazing, right?
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Like I've been obsessed with climbing for, I don't know, since I was 15.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: So three decades, because I'm 46, more than three decades.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, and climbing, like you're saying, is so self-consumed.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: It takes a lot of time.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: It's a really bad hobby, right?
7:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, don't go pursue it because it's like it's you know, it's so much easier to, I don't know, like play pickleball or something like this, right?
7:19
SPEAKER_00: Or even like be, but it like to go the act of going climbing just takes a while.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: So what happens is I think anything that becomes important to us, it takes a lot of time, we end up validating it because it to justify the amount of time, to justify taking the risk.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: Then suddenly it become like it becomes outsized in importance.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're gonna go all in as a climber, you're really all in.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then to pair that with with like becoming a parent, for me, I didn't even want to talk about being a parent.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even want to have that conversation as a young climber because I felt like I was gonna lose agency as a climber by talking about parenthood, if that makes sense, right?
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Um I think that that's my own BS probably that like I wasn't, you know, like I was I was having a conversation with someone today that, you know, my mom was a like charged in the corporate space.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: And this was in the 70s.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: So in the 70s, women could not say, Oh, by the way, I want to talk to you about how important it is to be a mom if they were gonna try to rock it, right?
8:13
SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of like the same thing in the climbing world.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: When I was coming into the fray in like the late 90s and early 2000s, if I was like, Yeah, I want to be this like pro climber, and by the way, I really want to have babies.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: I like whether or not it was true, I sure perceive this stress where it's like, no, don't like like don't see it, don't say anything, right?
8:32
SPEAKER_00: And so then you divorce yourself from that.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, that's not an option.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: Then people all are all around you are like, well, when you have kids, you're gonna, you know, it's a sellout, or you're gonna, you're not, you're gonna have to stop climbing, or you're a woman and you know, you're watching all of the implications of that.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: So I basically was like, la la la la la, I'm gonna put up blinders on this, right?
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't wanna, because I don't want to be restricted.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: But then at the same time, all of a sudden I realized that, you know, as I got closer to 40, that if I wanted to have kids, if I wanted to have a shot, that that was really this time.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: And I, the way this is, you know, in hindsight, pretty hysterical.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: I thought, well, what I'll do is I'll try to get pregnant, you know, as like my husband and I were like, let's try to get pregnant because maybe we won't get pregnant.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: And if we I was like, wouldn't that be great?
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Like if we can't get pregnant, we'll just be done thinking about this.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank God, right?
9:21
SPEAKER_00: Like years and years of angst.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: It's just like, well, we just can't get pregnant.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: And instead we got pregnant with twins.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: So of course you did.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: Oh my God.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: It's so funny how I love how you're talking about this sort of perspective of mothering and motherhood and the dilemma about how do we, you know, whether it's the 70s or the 2020s, right?
9:45
SPEAKER_01: How do we incorporate that idea, which for many of us is a profound desire and need, and for many of us is sort of a it might even be a should, right, in the background, like a really and then the conflict of what that all means with the rest of our life.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: And I think your description of both the dilemma of how to fit it in, but also the way of sort of quote unquote planning for it is so interesting, right?
10:11
SPEAKER_01: We spend all this time worried about getting pregnant.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: And then of course, there's this, you know, you have this whole other life that it sounds like you were saying, Micah, that we're feeling like, okay, I could go either way here.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: If I if I get pregnant, I'm gonna find a way to do that, which obviously you have to keep both going.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: And if I don't, I have this thing that I love that I'm invested in.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: I was kind of like, okay, let's see, let's like, let's have the universe flip the coin.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: And instead it was like, let's flip the coin twice at once.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: So and then that, you know, my whole idea of, well, and then if we do have a kid, we're just gonna, you know, like kind of affix them to us and just keep going.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly I'm like, oh, oh no, there are two, right?
10:49
SPEAKER_00: And just like this crashing reality for me of on the one hand, I mean, right, everybody, I love when you have twins, everybody's always like, Oh, I always thought it'd be fun to have twins.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: And you're like, Yep, yep, everybody thinks it would be really fun to have twins, but then you have twins, you know.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like it changes so much.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, parenthood changes everything and having two at once for your first go-around, it's you know, it's so not as freeing as you might have thought.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, we all think we're gonna rock parenthood, right?
11:17
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna like, we're gonna do it differently and we're it's gonna go, it's gonna go great and all these rules and whatever.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And it's always like a 180-degree shift from that.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: But I think that when you have twins, it's like a 270-degree shift from that.
11:28
SPEAKER_02: Right.
11:29
SPEAKER_02: So I want to back up a little if that's okay, because I feel like the fact that you've had twins is such a reflection of just you as a woman.
11:36
SPEAKER_02: And so, would you mind just bringing our listeners up to speed just about the kind of climber you are?
11:41
SPEAKER_02: Because it's not like the typical, I'm going to the gym, I'm pulling on plastic, then I'm gonna go outside every now and then.
11:47
SPEAKER_02: So will you actually just help us understand just the depths of who you are as a climber, and then we'll shift to you as a mother.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I have been, you know, I started climbing full-time when I was in my early 20s.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, I was a climbing guide for a long time, then I became a professional climber in my mid-20s, have traveled all around the world putting up first ascents, um, doing, you know, expeditions from places like Namibia to Ethiopia to Alaska, running expeditions all over Latin America, and really made a path for myself combining writing and social entrepreneurship and climbing.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so, you know, my first book was about climbing in Ethiopia, did a series of films, one about uh climbing in Namibia and one about climbing with scientists to find new species, and launch a conservation initiative, which has now grown into Legato, which is a giant international disruptive conservation organization that I run in Kenya, Mozambique, and Peru.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: That all started with climbing.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: So you're just fucking amazing.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm just sitting here like it's really, it's really astounding to hear all of that.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is a lifetime in and of itself, all of those things that you've done.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: I've got I've got some chills hearing about my smile is like wrapped around my head because like you just embody climber with environment, with expression of writing, with bringing other people in and making it so worldwide.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: It's just like this beautiful combination.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: So it's different.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's that's amazing.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, for me, it's also because I think, you know, when I started climbing, I wanted to be the best climber in the world, right?
13:27
SPEAKER_00: And that was my plan when I was in my early 20s.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, get out of the way, I'm on the stage, check me out.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: And then I kept getting injured in my early 20s.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, um, so that was not in this whole like rocket ship to stardom and the climbing world plan that I had, right?
13:41
SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't why am I not, you know, whatever, climbing on the leaning tower right now?
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And what I realized is that in order to be in that climbing space, there's this other part of me, which was kind of the intellectual part of me and the academic part of me that said, um, you know, but I can write about this and I can tell these stories.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: And I love what you said, Deb, about like, you know, being inclusive in that and bringing people into it because that became part of who I was in the climbing world.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, and and I I love that.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: I love being the person who's like the loose tooth wiggler, like hurts and feels good in the climbing world, who's like, hey, yeah, I have this, I have a I have a legit resume and how I bring it into this space has a ton of value.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: And I think I was at the right place, right time um to make that happen when I was in my 20s.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: And to I ask you too a question just about that, because I I, you know, Deb, Deb, I I did not know Deb and her badass, her really determined climbing days, but I can like envision her there and I'm in awe of her as well around that.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: So the two of you as climbers, can't what is the scene for women in climbing these days?
14:48
SPEAKER_01: Can you just, I'm just really curious about that.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: What does it look like?
14:52
SPEAKER_01: What is yeah, what does it look like for women climbers today in 2020?
14:56
SPEAKER_00: It's so different today than it.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's what's really cool about women in climbing is that it's been explosive growth, right?
15:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, the you know, there's this idea that when birth control first became possible, that more women started climbing because they could, you know, they could stop themselves from having children, they could have more adventures.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: So there's like this really big push of women in the outdoor spaces and in climbing, it like came in.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: So you see in Yosemite and things like that, like more women showing up on the scene then, and then kind of astronomically growing.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: And and then as new types of climbing come online, like bouldering, climbing without ropes, gym climbing, it's just this incredible invitation for anybody of any walk of life to be part of the climbing community.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: So climbing is going through a pretty big transformation, I would say, right now.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: When I got into climbing in the late 90s, there were still not a ton of women.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: There were more women than there were for, you know, when like the luminaries like Kitty Calhoun and Lynn Hill and um, you know, Alizna Hargraves, when they were kind of charging in the space.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: And so we've had these jumps, but it's still not, there's still not as many women as men.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: And then there are still these things that we don't talk about in terms of women and climbing.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, why does it kind of peter out around this age?
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Or why do, you know, why are there all these young women climbing, but then and then they're they're rock climbing, but they're not ice climbing?
16:14
SPEAKER_00: And or why are they not pushing as much in the like high mountains?
16:19
SPEAKER_00: Like my friend Ann Gilbert Chase, who's just an incredible alpine climber and a fellow athlete at Patagonia.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: And part of that has to do with by the time you've sort of sorted yourself out, if you're gonna pursue a like a really high level of alpine climbing, is right about the time when you're saying, Am I gonna have a kiddo?
16:33
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: And it's like any career, right?
16:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's kind of wild, right?
16:37
SPEAKER_00: Like they all they it's like they might seem radically different, but you just like take some of the shit away and you're like, Oh, actually, yep, there we go.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, how many women are you gonna stave off parenthood?
16:47
SPEAKER_00: Do you become a parent and go do that?
16:49
SPEAKER_00: And so, like, we don't it, I think that's why sometimes you're like, well, there are all these women, but then where do they go?
16:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, or why do they transition into these other paths of being a climber long term?
17:00
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I couldn't agree more.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: I think there's also this, like you said, whether you're professional or not, it is unbelievably time consuming.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: And these little body, right?
17:11
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: But where like a runner, you know, might go out for like a three-hour run that's that's extreme for a long distance runner.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: A climber, it is all day, many days, especially if you're an outdoor climber.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: And I was an ice climber as well.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: And and those and mixed climbing, and those are just long days.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: And to have you need to have a partner you rely on.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: There's like the and then there's the body piece.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that is like such a huge thing.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: I climbed through both pregnancies, and I remember coming back after my second, and my little one didn't want to hang out in the gym at the in the playroom.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: She just was not having it.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: And that was sort of the end for me, because I was like, for me to climb the way I want to climb, I have to train at a certain amount of hours.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: And it just wasn't aligning.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: And that's what's so messed up about it.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Like it takes even to like the entry point, if you've been taking it seriously to get back to taking it seriously and performing is a big lift, right?
18:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I one of the reasons, and I, you know, be careful because if all you call around is come move to New Hampshire, I will be blamed for this.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: But New Hampshire is like an amazing place to live as a climber where I live up in the Mount Washington Valley because the access is so good.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: And when I lived in Boulder, for me to go ice climbing was epically difficult and would take forever.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: I woke up yesterday, it was book launch day.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: I woke up at like, okay, I'm gonna be totally honest, I woke up at 3:30, which is also bananas been in London.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: So this is not, but normally I wake up around 4:30 or 5 and I was like all excited.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: And I got my team running in Kenya and Mozambique and like answered all these questions.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Then I got my kids to school, then I went ice climbing with my husband for four hours and I came back, had two meetings for Logato, did a podcast, and like got the kids from after school program, right?
18:49
SPEAKER_00: The reason I can do that though is because I live where I live and I can go ice climbing 15 minutes from my house.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: If I lived in even Esse's Park, which is like up close to Rocky Mount National Park, you're still like, you know, an hour and 45 minutes before you're actually ice climbing and you're on blown out ice and you got super sweaty on the hike.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, those things like it, it's a gift for me.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: That's not why I moved here, but it sure makes this whole like this crazy assembly of things I do more possible.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: Micah, how old are your twins right now?
19:17
SPEAKER_01: They're six and a half.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: So let's actually transition.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: It's a beautiful transition.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, so we're talking a lot about this lifestyle.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: We're also talking about the risk, right?
19:28
SPEAKER_02: That you're living this high risk lifestyle.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: So you find out you're pregnant, and what happens for you?
19:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I freak out.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: But I also like I found out I was pregnant and I I I just had this moment of like, yeah, okay, like this is happening.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: And it was this really wild time in my life to realize that I had done something that I I couldn't reverse, right?
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, and I had actually, I spent a lot of time being like, did I make a mistake?
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, was this experiment a mistake?
20:01
SPEAKER_00: And not toward the line of, you know, is this a is this a pregnancy that I think I should terminate, which like everybody in the world should have the right to do.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, but like for me, I was like, I don't know what to do now.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, what what if I what is the path that I just launched myself on?
20:16
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: And then I found out that I was having twins and it became just this banana's reality check for me of, okay, I wanted to like I love when you're like you climb through both pregnancies.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't do that, right?
20:28
SPEAKER_00: Like I totally did not, I effed my seasons up for when I got pregnant.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: So I had this like emerging belly while I was ice climbing.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, well, this doesn't make like a lot of sense.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: And I don't live near a gym.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: If I lived closer to a gym, I probably would have like gym climbed as much as I could have through my pregnancy.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: And also pregnancy kicked my ass.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: Like I was really tired.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: I was, and I also just got to this point, and I think that was again like this divine intervention of sorts of like, oh, you're going to have twins.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: So all the things that you thought you're gonna be able to pull off, just like sit your butt down, Burrhart, right?
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, and so I was like, you know what?
21:02
SPEAKER_00: What I want to do is have a healthy pregnancy.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: What I want to do is like bring these babies into the world.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: So it was not for me like, can I go push the needle or push the envelope on this?
21:12
SPEAKER_00: I also was on a film tour when I was pregnant.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: Like I just had my film Namuli come out.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: So like there were enough other things that I was charging at.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, it was a, it was, it was wild to suddenly be, you know, having to, you know, have this life of going to Patagonia that winter to go climbing and instead say, Yeah, I'm gonna grow two babies in my body instead.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm so struck by the identity shifting you must have been going through, right?
21:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think we all, when we become mothers, have this crazy kind of psychic trauma around identity shifting, but really the dramatic need for that for you all at once, right?
21:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and again, you're just describing I I am not a mom of twins.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: So I'm sitting here, I've worked with a lot of moms of twins, but I of course I don't know what it's like to be.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Carrying two little people in my body at one time, but there really was not a lot of room for the both and for you in there.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: And it was, it was also really wild for me because my husband is a full-time climber and mountain guide.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: And so I had this mirror held up to me of like, look what happens if you don't have this going on in your body.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, here's what it looks like to just keep on the trajectory towards greatness, you know?
22:24
SPEAKER_00: And then I had mine where I'm like, oh, I'm going to have a slightly different lane going on right here.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And that was really hard.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, it still is hard for me.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And I think that I, it was a huge identity shift for me.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, you know, while I didn't necessarily plan my pregnancy so I could like rock it and rock, you know, rock rock climbing while I was, you know, smaller and before I'd gained 70 pounds to bring, you know, twins fully into the world at six and eight pounds apiece.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, but like what that's that's a that's a huge accomplishment.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: It was a huge accomplishment.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I got this, I'm doing this.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: Because usually twins are like four pounds.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: So that's just really I had some big babies.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, but um, you know, to because I had that film tour, it gave me this way of holding on to my identity at the same time because I could go out in the world and I could feel like I was still a climber because I was telling a story about being a me as a climber, right?
23:17
SPEAKER_00: And me as a climber that launched this organization.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: And I I hadn't thought about it until you just said it um that way.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: But I think that was really important.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: I think that like in like was like I'm like, I'm like, oh, I need to have some gratitude for that in my life that that was available because I think it probably helped me keep the like the lights on in terms of my life as a climber and feel more like I wasn't just like subverting all my identities at the same time.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: That is huge.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: That is really, really powerful.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: That actually could is such an important message for all moms, no matter what, of how to keep a thread of your old life alive.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: It's like because that can get so lost in the process.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes we have an expectation that the things that we want have to be firing in a really big way for that for them to be part of us.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: And what one of the things I've learned, um, like begrudgingly and through like a lot of dragging myself through stuff that was not that easy to learn.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: So don't, it's not like, whoa, I figured this out really well.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: But if it's there, if the desire is there for this part of your life, it counts, right?
24:20
SPEAKER_00: Like it might not be that you're doing it in a flashy way and I it might not even be 2% in operation, but it's like, it's like, you know, it's like we it's there and it's valuable and we can honor it in ourselves and be like, hey, I feel you.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Like it's still part of you're still part of me.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'll get you, I'll get you from 2% to 20%.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know when, but at some point I'm gonna grow that.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: But just like stay cool and I'm gonna give myself some love that it's part of me.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think we don't do that because it's this expectation that in order to really be, you know, to bring our former selves forward, we have to be charging in that space at a level, like who the hell makes up that rule, right?
24:58
SPEAKER_00: But there's some sort of universe rule that we're in and that we do to ourselves, I think, especially as women, where it's like, whoa, but I'm not that, like, or I'm not a climber because my daughter like really couldn't be in the gym.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, I don't know, maybe you were a climber for longer, but you weren't, but it, but you didn't give credit to what the 2% was.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: We talk so much about our different parts on this podcast.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I hear you addressing is that this is there were parts of you that you could continue to access that helped you feel alive and connected to this community.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: And some parts of you, perhaps the more physical climber parts that you had to put on hold for a little bit, but you were still able to access these parts that kept you feeling alive in this piece of who you are that's always been so important to you.
25:42
unknown: Yeah.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: And alongside of that, like, you know, into like the internal family systems world, like I was also like just getting my ass handed to me about like what parts of me I had to manage from my you know childhood while I was becoming a new mom.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: So I had to give make some space for like learning where those parts were.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: That's my favorite modality as a therapist to work with.
26:01
SPEAKER_02: So I love that you just dropped that.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're saying this 2% actually is really landing for me around it's like keeping this little flame alive inside of you.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: And that, and I love that you said, even if it's not the thing that's face forward facing or flashy or like this is the big thing, it's still in there.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: And actually, as a climber, like I there is definitely a part of me that still identifies when I drive on I-70 and I'm looking at rock, like I can just see, I see it through such a different lens every time I can I see a face.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: And so it's thankful.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: That's like the pilot light.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: It's like the pilot light's on there, Deb, right?
26:36
SPEAKER_00: And the question is like, you know, maybe it maybe that's the way it is forever.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there are times in our in your life where that's gonna suddenly become, you know, like come into fruition.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: But I think that we have to like we're we're in the long game.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the goal is to be in the long game, right?
26:50
SPEAKER_00: So I I think that that's what's so hard in the moment when you feel as a mom with young kids, like it's hard to feel like you get power, right?
27:00
SPEAKER_00: In the decisions.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: It's you're kind of like, man, all the like the world is happening to me versus I.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: And and and I think there's a level of surrendering, and there's also this level of having like this really gauzey look in your future, saying, like, okay, this is a season or this is a part of it.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I did that when I was nursing the kids, you know, there's so much pressure on getting your body back.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Like Beyonce was pregnant with twins, like right around the time that I was.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm just not gonna look at Beyonce's pictures because like that is just like not going to help.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I don't have all these personal trainers.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: And then I remember one and I still haven't done it, but I was like, I want to find out if Beyonce was flipping nursing her babies, you know?
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Like I was like, this is not gonna end well, right?
27:39
SPEAKER_00: Like just calm it down.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: But I had I said, I I'm just gonna not worry about it until I'm done nursing.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know when that's gonna be, right?
27:48
SPEAKER_00: When I started nursing, I was like, can I even do it?
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Right?
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, is this even gonna happen?
27:51
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it'll be two months, maybe it'll be it ended up being two years.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: And like finally, when I was done nursing my babies, which was really hard for me to let go of, like, okay, now what's my body doing?
28:02
SPEAKER_00: And it giving myself that grace period of saying, like, let's just take that script in my head and try to place it out of me.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, don't worry about my clothes.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Don't worry, you know, it's like it just this just is what it is.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: This is what, you know, this is the season I'm in.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that was really helpful to me and maybe also really lucky that I got to have kind of like this two-year pause in it.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean I wasn't like, I was climbing then, I was trying, I was like back ice climbing in six months, all these things, but I wasn't like obsessed about some goal.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't obsessed about like a physical goal or a climbing goal.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, I'm nursing.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's see what happens.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Let's just like be open to what it is.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean, what you're saying right now is that you just chose, you chose to surrender.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: You chose to like be in the present moment.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're basically describing all the things that we talk about all the time in this really beautiful way.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: And I don't doubt that there weren't struggles and and challenges just along the way.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: But it sounds like something inside of you kept you steady.
29:06
SPEAKER_02: Am I hearing that right?
29:08
SPEAKER_00: I think that's I think part of it is, you know, actually, and my husband would say this like he got it before I did, um, that I had a really hard labor.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was able to carry the twins, like I said, to 38 weeks, and I'd had all these contractions for like the month leading up to their birth.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: So everyone thought, like, it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: And then it kept, you know, and then finally I had to be induced.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then after like 40 some hours and a fever during this, like I had an emergency C-section.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: And it was like I when I found out I was having twins, I was not a pregnant mama going in with some birth plan that I thought I was gonna be able to run point on, right?
29:44
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I get it.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, that's just not the world I'm in, especially where I live in northern New Hampshire.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, I couldn't even find a doctor who was willing to let me go beyond 38 weeks.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, this one do list like, well, you should drive to Boston.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I'm not driving to Boston to like, no, like it's fine.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna use my local hospital, you know, all these things.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: But Peter said to me when I'd been nursing the kids for like, I don't even know if it was eight months, he's like, I think nursing is so important to you because it lets you get back this thing you feel like you lost during birth, you know?
30:11
SPEAKER_00: And I think like that was really astute.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think for me, nursing gave me this like really big grounding and it also made things calm down for all of us, like for me and for my kiddos, right?
30:23
SPEAKER_00: Because I had a trick.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: I was like, we can all just take a moment.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: And that was really powerful.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: There's so much to that.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: I think you you said uh we're talking about something different, but you said sort of the universe's divine intervention, like here I am, I have to learn that thing.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: And that is something you describe this life where you are doing these amazing things and moving and busy and your ideas are flowing and you're engaging.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, you're just like you said, nursing one baby, let alone nursing two, is like plant your tush down.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: Blow down.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm also really struck, you know, there's so much grief and loss that comes with becoming a mother.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: We don't talk about that very much.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: We sort of set mothers up to assume that it's gonna be the best time of your life.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: And there's all these gifts, and we don't really make room for all of the losses that we grieve.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: You've already spoken to this quite a bit already, Micah, but um I just want to acknowledge that.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: I imagine that this, you know, on uh a sort of, you know, planned but unexpected quick pregnancy, right?
31:31
SPEAKER_01: And then a pregnancy with twins, and then all of these parts of yourself that you've needed to sort of set aside for a little bit.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: There must have been a fair amount of grieving that you went through during this stage.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: I think there was.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think um, I I had this thought when we like 10 minutes ago when we were talking, and we'll just try it out.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think I I I wrote this book by accident.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: So I didn't write it intentionally.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: I sat down to like when I found I was pregnant, all I wanted, I started writing audio, doing audio recordings on my phone.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: And then I started doing them to the kids because I was just like sitting, I would be driving places and I'd just like do an audio recording.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: So I was like, um, hey, babies who are in my belly, let's talk about stuff.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: And um, and eventually, after they were about three years old, I realized that it could become a book.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: And someone had asked me recently, like, why?
32:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, why did you make it a book?
32:18
SPEAKER_00: And maybe I made a book so I could have these conversations, right?
32:20
SPEAKER_00: Like this conversation we're having right now, because this is what I wanted.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Like when I was in the midst of it, uh, these are the like the nuance of conversation where I was like, oh my God, is everybody else going through this?
32:31
SPEAKER_00: Because this is bananas, right?
32:33
SPEAKER_00: And does anyone else feel like they're like at once super stoked to be doing this?
32:37
SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, like really pissed and really terrified.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: And like, how do we manage all this?
32:41
SPEAKER_00: But you can very rarely have those conversations in these, like, you know, you're in passing with other parents, right?
32:47
SPEAKER_00: Like you're at some sort of play date or you're at some like children's museum and you're like running after a kid and you're like, how's it going?
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Great, okay.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: And you end up talking about like the other stuff.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: You end up talking, which is also important, like, you know, about like which sippy cup you should buy or like why the velcro runs out on that thing, which are valid things and you have to spend mental bandwidth doing.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: But like all I wanted were these conversations because I was grieving a lot.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, and I was like, what do I?
33:10
SPEAKER_00: So I just do it and I just I just ignore it, or I'm also learning a ton about how I was raised at this point.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: And like, where does this go?
33:18
SPEAKER_00: And for me, it where it went was in this book.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: And like that's how I like processed so much of this was like, okay, well, then I like I need I need ballast, I need a place to put it.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: You said something so powerful that I work with when I work with moms a lot, is how do we hold polarities?
33:38
SPEAKER_02: You know, I want connection, I need space.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: Like I want this, I want that.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: And I think actually in motherhood and really all through life, whatever stage you're at as a in the human development process, is learning how to sit with those conflicting feelings.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: I think it is actually such a it's just a place where we can rest and we can hold capacity for having two completely opposing feelings at the same time.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: No, it's so it's that's so true.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: And so um it just like it takes my breath away to hear that because I think that is that is so right, but yet what we try to pretend is that certainty is possible.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: So like those things are in like diametrically opposed and in this tension.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: And if we can just say like, okay, it's really complex and it's okay to have all that complexity.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: And you can have, you can like fervently love your kiddos and have all these great things, and you can also be in a hellscape of like, I don't know if I like this, right?
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Or I don't know if I like who I am in this moment.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: And you feel horrible for admitting that, or it's like there isn't space for it.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, that doesn't take away anything from how much I love this experience.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take away anything from how much I'm like so committed to like learning how to be a parent and showing up for my kiddo's emotions.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: It's an end.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like, and it's kicking my butt and I'm terrified and I'm scared and I don't know if I can pull it off.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: Your book is such a manifestation of that because here you are in the car by yourself, right?
35:13
SPEAKER_01: Feeling like, am I alone in these feelings?
35:16
SPEAKER_01: And then what you create from this sense of isolation is this book for the public, right?
35:23
SPEAKER_01: It's like what how both and is that?
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Like you're so alone in the experience.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: And then what a gift to all these other mothers out there to say it's actually not abnormal.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: In fact, it's very common and normal to be in this place of uncertainty, to be in this place of both and and to be having to struggle through it, even quote unquote alone inside your own psyche, right?
35:49
SPEAKER_01: It's just it's such your book is such a gift in that way.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: I have a question.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: Um what would you say you have learned the most about yourself as a woman through this transition into motherhood?
36:05
SPEAKER_02: It's a hard question.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: I think it's interesting because I I feel like you chose your words really intentionally, right?
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Like as a woman, like not as a mom, you know, like what is and I think I have learned as a woman how to relate better to other women.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's made me a better human to be a mom.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: I feel like that comes across like it's it's that great moment uh that that, and I have no idea who said this first, but I've like, I think about it a lot, where like every, you know, not everybody's a parent, but everybody's a child, right?
36:39
SPEAKER_00: Like if we have that in common with everyone, and if you look around and suddenly you're like, whoa, all of you were doing this too, right?
36:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, and I didn't get it, and now I get it.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Like I was married in my 20s and then I got divorced.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: And um, I remember being like, wow, I I get more people in the world.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: Now I've been I've been married and divorced.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Like I like I have this currency.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: It's like you speak this other language, and it just made me more empathetic, right?
37:04
SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden I got pregnant and I was and I thought, holy cow, I've not been given pregnancy.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: It's like real deuce.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: And then you become a parent.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: So all of these things, I think if we have this opportunity where they make us better humans and they make us like understand humanity and care about humanity more.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, that in turn, the organization I run, Legato, that changed Legato.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: Like we had been really working in the concept, like more traditional conservation space, um, with lone way communities living around Mount Namooli and Mozambique.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden I'm a mom and I'm like, wait, why am I just helping people who live in one of the most amazing biodiverse areas in the world who are so marginalized by their country, um by governance, by their resources, and they don't have anyone else supporting them, but I'm only going to support them in conservation?
37:48
SPEAKER_00: That's so wrong.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: I should be saying, What all do you need to make happen for your families to thrive and your place to thrive?
37:55
SPEAKER_00: And how do I get behind you to do that?
37:56
SPEAKER_00: And like I literally shifted how Legato operates so that now that's what we deliver because of my experience of becoming a mama.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
38:07
SPEAKER_02: We're like, we're both just like speechless.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you why I'm speechless.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm speechless for a couple of reasons.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: One, I I don't know how many times Deb and I, I know what Deb's thinking because she and I think we read each other's minds and we're connected that way.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: I know that she's it thinking the same thing I am.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: And like, how many times could I actually say out loud, excuse my language, you're a fucking badass.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: So every time something comes out of your mouth, I'm more like, whoa.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there's that.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: But I'm also just so somatically touched by this part of our conversation because it's true.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'm sure you have this thing I can't relate to as a twin mom, right?
38:50
SPEAKER_01: I I, you know, you know you can relate to other twin moms in a way I can't.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: But there is this thing that happens when we become as women, when we become mothers that opens up this visceral connection to life, just to life, right?
39:07
SPEAKER_01: That again, I am in full belief that not every woman has to or should or needs to be a mother.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: And there's plenty of things that, of course, that that I can't relate to that a non-mother uh woman, non-mothered woman would have.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: And there is this connection to quote unquote life that happens when we raise little humans.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: And it I feel it in my body when I hear you talking about it.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: It's profound.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: It is, I agree.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think it also means like I think if we can do it and be vulnerable, like if we can do it and be vulnerable and like help catch other people when they need to be vulnerable.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: And I don't, I don't think we figured out how to do that entirely yet, right?
39:47
SPEAKER_00: Because again, like what I did is, you know, I think it's I got was able to finally get very, very real with my husband about what I was going through and found girlfriends who I could have as part of this net, right?
40:01
SPEAKER_00: This like building this real net of people.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: But I feel like we need more of those, those, those paths.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: It's like we sort of have like, well, you can go to therapy, right?
40:08
SPEAKER_00: Or like, I hope you find a couple girlfriends, um, or maybe you join this online chat group.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: But it's the it's this weird shared experience that you're having with all these other parents and moments, but you it's like you can't touch down, right?
40:20
SPEAKER_00: Like you can't really be in the thick of it and like share this really vulnerable thing, but you desperately need it.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: So how do we help people get there, right?
40:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, and and maybe that, I mean, that's I think what this book is about and is for, and clearly what you are all trying to do by putting, you know, the podcast and then the work that you're supporting the world.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: And it's a it's a will, you you mentioned this word uncertainty earlier.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a requirement to be willing to be uncertain, to do this kind of vulnerable work well, right?
40:48
SPEAKER_01: We can't be vulnerable and know everything at the same time, right?
40:52
SPEAKER_01: And and I I don't know one mother that walks this planet that doesn't have 99% of the time an experience of uncertainty, right?
41:00
SPEAKER_01: So it really is um, I think your expression and your vulnerability around the uncertainties that you move through in this transition from being, you know, this really incredible athlete traveling the world to really needing to incorporate your role as a mother into that identity.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: Your willingness to be uncertain around that is what the gift is to people who are hearing you speak or reading your book or or whatever.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hopefully it's I mean, I really see it as this invitation into sharing that I I um I'm trying to remember, I can't remember her name.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, she's at come on, she wrote maybe it was lean in.
41:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was like it was who wrote Lean in?
41:43
SPEAKER_00: What's her name?
41:44
SPEAKER_00: Come on.
41:44
SPEAKER_02: Oh, the she started.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: Erin Sandelberg.
41:46
SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
41:47
SPEAKER_00: Sanders.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: Sanders, yeah.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: So when then when her husband died, she was talking a lot about grief.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: And there I remember just really being struck by something that she said where she's like, if people have had a big loss, like don't ask them how they're doing, ask them how they're doing today.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I feel like that's maybe how we need to talk to parents.
42:03
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: How are you doing today?
42:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, not, you know, it's like like and so like today, for example, like my twins had a meltdown about who got to have the first crep, right?
42:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, and it like totally derailed half the morning to the point where I was then going on a big power cross-country ski and started bonking.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, why am I bonking?
42:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh my God, because I only had one crep.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: Like that was a really bad idea, you know, and then I had to go into this meeting for Legato.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, ha.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: And so I was like scarfing down, you know, it's like, how are you doing today?
42:31
SPEAKER_00: And it's like the human sharing of that, right?
42:34
SPEAKER_00: It's like, give me the three things might give us like more of a space to say, like, yeah, like here's the crazy mismash of things that I don't really understand, but they're all driving right now because we all have those.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: Oh my God.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: I love the today.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm so gonna borrow that because it actually, there's a couple other things that we as women are trained to compare against each other.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: It is like deeply ingrained in our system and it only keeps us separate.
42:59
SPEAKER_02: And everything you're talking about right now is that we're so much more connected and alike than we are different in this journey.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: And you're bringing grief and motherhood and the two, I think, go hand in hand.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: And and and when we can actually start to be present in the moment with what's happening, just moment to moment, without comparing, without one-upping, without even thinking that this mom has it all together, you know, it's like we just bring it all down a notch to this human experience of connection.
43:26
SPEAKER_02: It's so powerful.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna start to move towards completion, but I wanna um something Kate and I bring up all the time is how important it is to tend to self, right?
43:37
SPEAKER_02: In order to show up for our kids.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: So, what can you share with our listeners some ways that you tend to yourself?
43:44
SPEAKER_00: I think that's such a funny question to ask a climber, right?
43:47
SPEAKER_00: Because like, remember at the beginning of this, we're talking about how climbing is so self absorptive, right?
43:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, um, so I go climbing, which then I feel like I've maybe done a little bit too much tending myself.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, so But you know, for me, so for me, you know, it's little things.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: It's I wake up before my kiddos wake up.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: I never thought I would do, but you know, I wake up at I have my own little green light, like a toddler does.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's like when the lights green, I'm like, oh, I get to get out of bed, right?
44:13
SPEAKER_00: And it's an hour before my kids do.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: And I take that time to like start my life so that then I can be more present to them when they're awake because I want both of the, like, I need my time for self so that I can be the mom I want to be, right?
44:26
SPEAKER_00: And like those things are so important to me.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, it's waking up, it's getting exercise.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's being gentle with myself about what that exercise is, right?
44:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like the other day I like I live in like this cross-country ski mecca and I totally misfired on like the time of day I went skiing and the gear that I brought, and it just kind of sucked.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I gotta go do this.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: I have an hour and a half.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, this is not fun.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go home.
44:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm really tired.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: I still just got back from London.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, it's sort of it's like it's it's sometimes you might have a plan of what you need for to do for yourself, but in the moment you might realize it's not what you want to do.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: Or I also go get a pedicure and I work.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm like that person and I like I flip and love it.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: Like I sit there and I get work done and get a pedicure, and I'm like, yep, that's okay.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is me.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't read a magazine.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: I sit here and I get work done.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes, beautiful.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, so can you do you have any other questions before we move on?
45:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have a million questions, but that would take another hour.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: So maybe we'll have to have you back.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: I I want people to know where to find more of you.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure everyone knows where to get your book.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to wait to read that in completion.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, I want people to know where to find, I actually want to know where to find more about your organization.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: So totally so um the book is called More, Life on the Edge of Adventure and Motherhood.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: And it's everywhere you want to buy books.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you can go just Google more climbing, and I bet you'll come up with it, or my first name, M-A-J-K-A.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, you can learn about Logato, the organization I run at legatoinitiative.org.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: And now if you just type my name into a browser, you will find my website and everything you need to know about the book and Logato is all linked there.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: We'll make sure all of that is in the show notes.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, gosh, I can't wait to.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: I already dove in a bit before this interview, but I'm gonna go back and like really dive in.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: No, I can't wait to hear what you think at the end.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, thank you.
46:18
SPEAKER_00: It's it feels really wild to be doing this and it like it also feels really good to have so many people have read it already and be like, man, this matters.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: And I'm really glad you did it because I didn't realize it, but I kind of needed that net.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
46:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you matter so much.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: Your story matters.
46:36
SPEAKER_02: I have chills all over my body.
46:38
SPEAKER_02: I just adore this conversation.
46:40
SPEAKER_02: I am so inspired by you.
46:43
SPEAKER_02: And thank you for giving us this time.
46:45
SPEAKER_02: Seriously.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's my pleasure.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: It was a real, yeah.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: I just really enjoyed it and I needed it today.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: Cheers to you, and it's it's National Women's Day.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it is.
46:57
SPEAKER_02: We're not launching this for a couple of weeks, but cheers to women, right?
47:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're every single iteration there is, every single version.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: What a perfect day for this interview.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Mike.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Micah.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, tons, Kate and Deb.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: Take care.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: Hey, you guys, it's Kate.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
47:27
SPEAKER_01: If this podcast makes you laugh, makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: So take a minute.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: We'd be so grateful.
47:43
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.