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Rules: Table Manners 201 - Traditions, Origins, and OMG I Didn't Know That! · Family Tree Food Stories

0:01
Nancy May: Hey everybody, it's Nancy and Sylvia once Again, from
0:04
Family Tree Food and Stories, and this show is a little different.
0:08
Well, I think they're all different actually, don't you, Sylvia?
0:11
Sylvia Lovely: Oh yeah, but they all go back to one place.
0:13
It's called Family Traditions, Family Tree Food & Stories.
0:16
That's what we're all about.
0:18
So grappling with all the many subjects that can go down, all kinds
0:23
of rabbit holes on behalf of that theme.
0:26
Nancy May: They are endless.
0:27
And this one is, , something that your mother probably told you
0:31
about we're talking about manners.
0:34
Kind of like, remember Ms. Manners of the day and age, and
0:38
I think she's still around
0:39
Sylvia Lovely: Well, I know she was really big in the seventies and, what
0:43
was really interesting about Ms. Manners, who was, , actually Judith Martin.
0:46
And, at her prime, she was in like 200 newspapers across the country.
0:51
Sort like a dear Abby kind of thing, you know.
0:54
And, , what was interesting about her is that she came after the.
0:58
Tumultuous sixties now that we're in the sixties.
1:01
I was old enough to be in the sixties.
1:03
I don't know about anybody else out there, but manners sort of like were.
1:08
, It was counterculture.
1:09
It was a time where you know, love everybody and do anything you want.
1:15
, It was that kind of society.
1:17
So she reigned it all in and became Miss Manners.
1:20
However, she did bring a sense of flexibility and I remembered a
1:26
story and you got time for a story
1:28
Nancy May: Sure that time for a story?
1:29
Sure, do it!
1:30
Sylvia Lovely: Belksville Kentucky is down on the Cumberland River, which is in
1:34
southern Kentucky on the Tennessee border.
1:37
And.
1:37
Cumberland River flows right through it.
1:39
, My mentor was the mayor of Belksville, Kentucky, 1600 souls.
1:44
He was so smart.
1:46
He was a, retired general who moved back home to take care of his aging
1:50
mother, who was also really smart.
1:52
one day I asked him.
1:53
I said, Paul, why is it that there's so many like, , if you look at the
1:57
stats on Belksville, above average schooling, all that kinda stuff,
2:02
it was a finishing school kind of place for the Rich Easterners that
2:07
would float down the rivers that ran, , in this part of the country.
2:10
And they would come here and.
2:12
Women that, it was girls and it was very strict stuff, and they would intermarry
2:17
with , the natives of Southern Kentucky.
2:19
I just thought that was really interesting because it got me into
2:22
what finishing schools were at the time for upper class young women
2:26
who were taught a very serious.
2:28
Way to behave and to act and,
2:31
Nancy May: In society
2:32
Sylvia Lovely: In society.
2:33
and , so then you had the sixties, and I know I'm overgeneralizing, but you
2:37
had that kind of throw all that away and then Miss Manners came back to kind
2:41
of bring it all together to the middle, with some flexibility unlike, , some
2:45
of the other kinds of finishing school or the Victorian age and all those
2:49
things where everything just had to be.
2:51
Perfect.
2:52
Or Martha Stewart, right?
2:54
Nancy May: Right, right.
2:56
Martha from Nutley, New Jersey.
2:58
I love
2:59
Sylvia Lovely: Yes.
2:59
That is interesting.
3:01
Nancy May: Not from Westport.
3:01
Well, she is from Westport.
3:02
But anyway, but it's interesting to look at how all these
3:06
manner things, came about.
3:09
And you've been watching The Crown.
3:11
I know.
3:11
Sylvia Lovely: I love it.
3:12
Nancy May: But it I mean it's well before all of that, I wonder
3:16
if the cavemen actually, and Cavewomen had manner processes.
3:20
, We didn't have napkins and forks and knives, but there was probably like,
3:23
you don't hit , , my lady over the head with a club to take her home to your
3:27
cave and have dinner with her when I'm having dinner with her kind of thing.
3:31
But sure, there's something else.
3:32
But also we had the the middle evil times.
3:35
Which I find is rather interesting on how people became, more civilized,
3:40
Sylvia Lovely: sure.
3:40
Well, don't you think if you read back in ancient history, people
3:44
were a pretty violent bunch, in the medieval times they were just pigs.
3:49
I am just gonna
3:50
say it.
3:50
There's none of them alive to protest.
3:52
Nancy May: pigs compared to we are today at
3:55
Sylvia Lovely: That's what I would think.
3:56
Nancy May: Well, some people I know are pigs, but that's besides the point.
3:59
Sylvia Lovely: no, but that's not the standard.
4:00
The standard is you don't do that.
4:02
like forks were considered effeminate or too refined.
4:06
people ate with their hands.
4:07
And another funny story is I took a group of mayors to a Moroccan
4:11
restaurant, I think it was in Las Vegas, and 'cause different cultures
4:15
look at stuff even today differently.
4:17
And , they brought a whole chicken and your job was to grab a piece of chicken.
4:21
Off of that chicken.
4:22
And they
4:23
were outraged.
4:24
Yes.
4:24
With your hands.
4:25
They were outraged.
4:26
The mayors were outraged.
4:28
They were like, oh, I can't eat at a place where somebody else, had their hands.
4:32
Is that interesting though?
4:34
But that was a common, apparently it was a very authentic restaurant.
4:37
and then don't you have some knife things?
4:39
Because they
4:40
Nancy May: Oh, there's a whole bunch of interesting things on how place
4:43
settings are, so I don't know about you, but I know the basics of where
4:47
your forks and knives go on a place.
4:49
Settings.
4:49
And the red wine.
4:50
And the white wine and the bread.
4:52
I, you know.
4:53
The biggest challenge that I think most people have, especially at an
4:57
event, is, which is your bread plate versus somebody ed else's bread plate?
5:03
Well, you know the best way to solve that problem and remember it, you put , your
5:07
hands up and make , the okay sign, and one is a B and one is a D, and the bread
5:13
side is the one that has the B side.
5:14
, And the drink side is where you've got the drink where your coffee cup is.
5:18
So that's kind of, I don't know if , that portrays well in audio
5:23
connection, but I think you get the idea., the the A. Okay sign.
5:28
And , when you've got your fingers up, it's like A, okay, B and D.
5:31
Sylvia Lovely: I don't know if you'll ever break me from just
5:33
saying, Hey Bernie, this is mine,
5:36
Nancy May: Is it B okay or D. Okay.
5:39
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, , now I grew up largely without, I'm gonna say, this is so funny.
5:43
My parents will turn over in their grave without manners.
5:47
Nancy May: Oh,
5:47
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, okay.
5:48
No.
5:48
Now I'm gonna explain.
5:50
. We really never had people over to dinner.
5:53
We were a very reclusive family.
5:54
Out on a farm, happy family, but.
5:56
Very reclusive.
5:57
So, , we ate with, , forks and stuff like that, and obviously weren't
6:01
the pigs of the medieval age.
6:03
Nancy May: you didn't always use your hands.
6:05
Sylvia Lovely: No, not always, but, and we weren't feral people, , but , so
6:09
I remember, and this is not manners exactly, but it actually could
6:12
be my first date, the guy takes me to a diner and I must have been 16.
6:19
I don't know how old I was, never eaten out.
6:20
Except when we were on vacation occasionally and he took me to dinner
6:25
and I decided the best manners I could show was not to open my mouth,
6:29
which I didn't, I didn't talk to him.
6:32
I didn't say a word.
6:33
Kinda along the lines, don't open my mouth.
6:35
And the event that, you
6:37
Nancy May: Don't chew with your mouth open, right?
6:38
Yeah.
6:39
So don't talk.
6:40
Sylvia Lovely: anyway, that was my version of, of manners.
6:42
. Nancy May: So you weren't exactly a hot date that night.
6:45
I take it.
6:46
Sylvia Lovely: No, he never asked me out again.
6:47
Imagine that.
6:48
I kind of thought he'd like a silent date.
6:51
Nancy May: That is, funny.
6:52
so but it's interesting to look at the placement of forks
6:56
and knives on the place set.
6:59
Did you know that how a knife is set on the table actually
7:03
goes back to medieval times?
7:05
Sylvia Lovely: no.
7:05
Tell me about it.
7:06
Nancy May: Yeah, so here's what happened.
7:08
the knife was a double-edged kind of knife used as weapon originally.
7:13
And the blade was, facing inwards towards your plate, if there was a
7:18
plate or a piece of wood or whatever they used, signaled trust to, the
7:22
people around the table with you,
7:24
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
7:25
Nancy May: if the bla right, exactly.
7:27
Because you're not gonna like whack somebody off
7:29
Sylvia Lovely: We are a barbaric barbarian
7:31
Nancy May: whacking somebody else off is a different story, a different
7:34
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
7:34
Yeah.
7:34
Oh yeah.
7:36
Oh, okay.
7:38
Nancy May: But if the blade is turned outwards, that's considered, rather.
7:41
Threatening to somebody else,
7:43
Sylvia Lovely: that makes sense.
7:44
Nancy May: and is also a hospitality thing now, so it's been carried forward.
7:47
When you put a place sitting, the knife blade is always set towards
7:51
your plate, not away from it, whether it's blunt or a hunting knife.
7:55
My dad taught me that growing up.
7:56
Isn't that interesting?
7:57
Sylvia Lovely: but that's a good one.
7:58
You know, king Louis the 14th banned a pointed knives to discourage violence.
8:03
Okay.
8:04
Don't mess with that crowd.
8:05
, And so the origin of the table knife, I don't know what that means
8:09
exactly, but , king Louis was the father of Royal Risk Management.
8:13
Nancy May: Oh, I love it.. and then the French, the
8:15
French, they are funny people.
8:17
We love them, especially their food, but the knife was, displayed
8:22
wherever the family crest was.
8:24
So if the blade was on the facing outwards and their family crest was
8:28
on the upside, it kind of was important to let people know your status.
8:32
So.
8:32
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
8:33
Nancy May: The knife showed your ranking, which I thought was rather interesting.
8:37
Sylvia Lovely: Well, you can see where royalty like in The Crown.
8:41
I'm so fascinated by how everybody's seated in a certain
8:45
place and, it's so formal.
8:48
And of course, throughout the entire series, which is huge.
8:52
, There.
8:52
Being pressured as modern living comes along to change all those things, and
8:57
yet they hold onto it because it is the etiquette that has sustained them
9:03
and has developed over time and it's really hard for them to give it up.
9:07
And , Diana.
9:08
Kind of played around with them, didn't she?
9:10
And she kind of got her way,
9:12
they She better not be nasty to Diana that they were.
9:15
Nancy May: No, But but placing where people are placed.
9:18
Especially in an event is very important.
9:21
Or even a family, , the head of the table is always the position power.
9:25
And my dad would sit at the front of the table, it.
9:28
Holidays or my grandmother would actually, no, dad would always sit at the front of
9:33
the table 'cause he would carve the Turkey and my grandmother always sat to the right
9:37
side, which was her position of power.
9:40
So , us.
9:40
Kids would always sit on the sides, it didn't matter.
9:42
But even at home, it was probably not intentional yet.
9:45
There were still those levels of, I don't
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Sylvia Lovely: Hierarchy.
9:49
And formality.
9:50
Now this is all really interesting and I know you may have a different opinion, but
9:55
Nancy May: Go ahead.
9:56
Sylvia Lovely: Old Martha,
9:57
Nancy May: Oh,
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, Sylvia Lovely: Martha's book is coming out and I swore I was
10:00
gonna find the name of it, but,
10:02
, Let see.
10:03
No, no, no.
10:04
It's a reissuance of an old book,
10:07
Ah,
10:08
entertainment.
10:10
Anyway, it was
10:10
when she was
10:11
Nancy May: Entertainment.
10:11
I think that was one of her original ones.
10:13
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, it was, and very young.
10:15
Very young, Martha.
10:16
And, , her book was controversial at the time because she advocated perfection.
10:21
And then the reason it was controversial is that, I mean, she was wealthy.
10:24
She could afford to spend endless time and days putting together the perfect table
10:30
and manners and all of that kind of stuff.
10:32
So.
10:33
I think it was interesting 'cause at least it democratized, so I'm gonna use
10:37
that word again with as, , with miss manners that everybody could make their
10:40
house a home and, , to lesser degrees people worried about how things were
10:46
set up and all of that kind of thing.
10:48
Now that may not be manners as much as it's just the overall
10:51
look of a table and all of that kind of stuff, sort of decorating.
10:56
, Nancy May: We talked about that in, in a previous show, decorating,
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but still I think manners go.
11:01
A long way on, many different levels.
11:04
One, if you are, maybe the hostess is not the right word, but if you invite
11:10
friends and other family members into your home, especially now around
11:13
the holidays, you wanna make them feel comfortable around their table.
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And even if they don't have the best manners, not to necessarily
11:19
call them out on it, but hopefully show them by example.
11:23
My mom , had a story that she told us time and time again when we were kids.
11:27
She was so concerned that we wouldn't know how to handle ourselves as
11:31
adults at somebody else's table.
11:33
I don't know why, because they drill it into us as kids, how to properly
11:37
eat with a fork and knife and make sure that we didn't embarrass ourselves or
11:43
somebody else or that we were with.
11:44
Especially if it's like, well, a date we learn to talk still.
11:48
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, please
11:50
Nancy May: But my mom did not know how to eat a chicken with a fork, a knife,
11:55
chicken on the bone , as a teenager.
11:57
' cause they were like, it's not that they were manners were bad, I think at home.
12:00
It's just that they never did it.
12:02
They picked up the chicken with her hands and, that kind of thing.
12:04
Well, my mom was.
12:06
Totally embarrassed not knowing how to do this, but made sure that she
12:09
delicately took the chicken off the bone at her boyfriend's house and at the
12:15
end of the meal, her boyfriend's mother came to her quietly and said, I have
12:19
never seen anybody with such impeccable manners on how do you eat a chicken
12:24
with a bone with your fork and knife,
12:26
Sylvia Lovely: Interesting.
12:27
Nancy May: Mom drill that one into me really well.
12:30
I still don't like getting my fingers sticky on chicken.
12:34
Sylvia Lovely: Ladies in the Victorian age had to use a fork
12:36
and knife to cut an orange.
12:38
Pamphlets were developed on proper orange eating protocol.
12:42
Nancy May: Isn't that interesting?
12:43
Oh my goodness.
12:44
Or what about grace and, blessings.
12:46
I think those are really, not in, I say , in style today.
12:51
Although yeah, I have had friends who said, would you mind if we say Grace?
12:54
No, go right ahead.
12:55
that works and we've got, we've got a Grace in our book, family
12:59
Tree, food and Stories right
13:00
in the back.
13:00
If you don't have
13:01
one,
13:01
Sylvia Lovely: I.
13:02
Nancy May: got one for you.
13:03
Sylvia Lovely: I think they're on the upswing.
13:04
I know when I go to lunch and I, and we frequently go to lunch together,
13:08
Frida a frequent contributor and I always start eating.
13:13
You know, the other thing is you wait till the other person gets
13:16
their meal right before you.
13:18
Dig in.
13:18
And that's kind of ingrained in all of us.
13:20
And so as soon as the food arrives, I'm like, I pick up my fork.
13:24
Do you mind if I say grace?
13:25
I'm like, oh shoot.
13:26
When will I ever ingrain that in my head?
13:30
It's a good idea.
13:31
Nancy May: Wasn't your grandfather or somebody a preacher too
13:34
Sylvia Lovely: oh yeah.
13:34
Bernie's dad was, and so
13:36
you knew you were gonna say Grace before, all of that, before
13:41
Nancy May: Well, and then there's so many other things.
13:43
, Napkin, I wouldn't say napkins, but, , we'll get to napkins, but bad manners.
13:47
There was, I'm gonna say it was probably the early eighties that
13:51
corporations were hiring etiquette trainers to teach their young recruits.
13:57
How to behave at a table because they were coming to the corporate world with
14:01
no manners, which I find rather sad at the same time as as interesting.
14:06
But things as simple as where do you place your napkin?
14:09
Do you even use a napkin?
14:11
Which I think is really, I mean, alright, maybe it's a
14:14
Sylvia Lovely: So you don't use shirt sleeves?
14:16
Are you
14:16
Nancy May: No, no, or, or you.
14:18
You don't tuck it into the top of your shirt unless you're eating lobster, and
14:22
then you're usually given a bit, and that's a whole nother type of thing.
14:24
But the napkin always goes on your lap and yeah, it doesn't tuck into
14:28
your pants or anything like that.
14:31
You guys always have an issue with ties, right?
14:33
So maybe they just wipe their mouths with their ties, or never
14:36
speaking with your mouth full.
14:37
Now, these things are really kind of obvious, I think, in many
14:40
cases, yet I see so many people.
14:43
Just not doing them.
14:44
Just stop, take small bites of food, chew, or, , here's another one.
14:48
When you have bread , on your bread plate, if you're at a
14:51
restaurant , you don't cut the thing in half and slather butter on it.
14:56
You're supposed to take just a small little piece and then butter
14:59
it or do whatever you're doing with it or dip it in oil and eat
15:02
the piece, not the whole chunk.
15:04
Don't bite into it.
15:05
So that's
15:06
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
15:07
at one time, only the host could break bread.
15:10
If you reached for it too early, you were challenging authority.
15:13
Yikes.
15:14
Nancy May: I love the concept of just breaking bread because
15:16
it means you're sitting down
15:18
with people that you are coming to the table for,
15:20
Sylvia Lovely: here's an interesting thing, whether
15:21
it's manners or whatever it is.
15:23
, I have seen increasingly now if you're at a high level business,
15:27
dinner, breakfast or lunch or dinner, and , it has kind of been.
15:32
Tradition that men pick up the check.
15:35
And frequently they do, And that's kind of a tradition.
15:38
Men take care of women.
15:39
Right.
15:39
But today's world is really different.
15:42
And I'm just wondering, , I typically do coffee meetings outside of my home.
15:47
I work from home and.
15:49
That is kind of easier because you go, you just go up to a
15:52
counter and you order that.
15:54
Plus, you know, I've always had to be real honest with you, I've always
15:57
had issues with what do you order if you're in a business meeting because
16:02
you don't want something like, oh, I'll tell you, the worst thing to
16:04
order is, uh, French onion soup
16:07
with the gooey cheese.
16:09
And the fear that you're gonna have these big strings of
16:12
cheese hanging down your chin.
16:14
I mean, I still no.
16:16
Nancy May: can always use a knife to cut the strings of cheese.
16:18
That's, I've done that before.
16:19
Sylvia Lovely: Well, you can do all of that, but I just avoid it
16:22
when I do have lunch with people.
16:24
And then, in today's world, what do you do?
16:26
Do you,
16:27
Nancy May: Well , let's come back because we're gonna take a quick
16:30
break and we're gonna come back and talk about who picks up the check.
16:33
That's an interesting one, so stay tuned.
16:35
We'll be right back.
16:38
. All right, so we are back and we're picking up on this one, pun
16:42
intended, on checks at the table for restaurants, and whether it's business
16:47
or friendship or whatever that is.
16:49
And who picks up the check?
16:51
let me start with, we've got the husband of a friend who we love
16:54
dearly, who my friend says, well, my husband has alligator arms.
17:00
You know what that is?
17:01
You can't reach the check all the time.
17:04
And we have other friends who went out to dinner with, well, they, they're no
17:08
longer close friends, which is really sad because this woman, not that it
17:12
matters, but extremely wealthy, always let somebody else pick up the check.
17:16
She would find some excuse to leave early or I gotta go and just.
17:20
Sylvia Lovely: Oh no.
17:21
Nancy May: Disappear, which is probably why she was wealthy,
17:23
but, or one of the reasons.
17:25
Right?
17:26
But here's my theory on picking up the check.
17:29
If you are the one that has done the inviting, inviting somebody
17:32
out, and you are the host,
17:34
Sylvia Lovely: Yes,
17:35
Nancy May: you pick up the check
17:36
Sylvia Lovely: that's what I think.
17:37
Nancy May: men or women.
17:38
However, I have been in those situations where typically it's an older gentleman
17:44
will insist that they pick up the check.
17:47
and if I say, no, I've invited you out, you're my guest.
17:50
If they, I don't wanna say, if they can be gr can't be gracious enough to
17:53
say thank you, then, then, , I just, the term gracious, that's kind of rude.
17:58
That does not give me very good manners.
18:00
But if they really wanna do that,
18:02
that's fine and I will find some other way to thank them
18:06
or.
18:07
show my, appreciation a, in a different way.
18:10
You
18:10
can also always ask to offer to pick up the, tip, right?
18:13
Sylvia Lovely: yeah, yeah.
18:14
No, I agree with you because I really believe sometimes, particularly an older
18:18
generation person wants to have that sense of power, and that's okay with me.
18:23
, I'm fine with that because I understand it
18:26
, Nancy May: If it's a power play, I am like, eh, yeah.
18:28
I'm not wild about that.
18:29
Sylvia Lovely: There's not too many older than me now, you know?
18:32
Nancy May: Well, if it's done, as a politeness versus a power
18:34
play, that's a whole nother story.
18:36
So
18:36
Sylvia Lovely: Okay.
18:37
Well we can agree to disagree on that 'cause we don't know what power is, do we?
18:40
There's many different meanings of power.
18:42
Nancy May: that, I would agree with.
18:43
yeah.
18:44
I can think of power as being obnoxious, you know,
18:46
Sylvia Lovely: Uh, no, I, I believe, uh, my husband has a really hard time
18:49
accepting gifts from people, and I'm like, no, people feel really good
18:55
sometimes about feeling like they were able to do something for you.
18:59
Nancy May: I agree with you.
19:00
Sylvia Lovely: So if that's power, then I'm all for it.
19:02
So anyway.
19:03
Nancy May: consider that power.
19:04
I just think that's being gracious
19:05
Sylvia Lovely: Okay.
19:06
Difference of opinions, but, I just, what, how you define power.
19:09
Nancy May: agree.
19:10
I.
19:10
Sylvia Lovely: Anyway., Just another thing, chopsticks, don't sit them upright.
19:14
It's a bad omen.
19:15
Nancy May: I think that's pretty funny.
19:17
Well, and speaking of, chopsticks or just even sitting at the table,
19:21
really waiting for doing anything before your guests or other family
19:25
members sit down at the table.
19:26
You don't eat before somebody else, right?
19:29
You wait.
19:30
You wait till they're served, even if it takes forever.
19:34
However, if your guest says, or the other person at the table
19:37
says, please go ahead and eat,
19:39
then you have
19:40
Sylvia Lovely: that's right.
19:41
Nancy May: the, approval to do so.
19:42
I still feel uncomfortable doing that, especially if people
19:45
are waiting forever and just as
19:47
bad service at a restaurant.
19:48
, I feel bad for doing that.
19:50
Sylvia Lovely: Uh, I do too.
19:51
Did you know that in Japan, I was in Japan?
19:54
It was really hard.
19:56
I told you I grew up without manners.
19:57
No, I didn't grow up without manners.
19:59
I just not refined ones, but it was really hard to sloop slurp my noodles.
20:04
Nancy May: Oh yeah, that's a big thing.
20:05
It a slurping is considered an etiquette thing, right?
20:10
Sylvia Lovely: That was fun.
20:10
do you wanna hear about some holiday things?
20:12
Nancy May: Oh, I wanna hear holiday things.
20:14
Absolutely.
20:14
Sylvia Lovely: Okay.
20:15
Now these aren't like different things.
20:17
They're just more intense at holiday time.
20:20
Everybody's busy, right?
20:22
You gotta get to that party, that five to seven thing, but you gotta go do some
20:25
Christmas shopping and then the other trick that people do is they all RSVP.
20:30
This happens to a restaurant all the time.
20:33
RSVP.
20:34
Yes, we're coming.
20:35
And
20:35
then, and then they don't Now on a restaurant that happens.
20:39
That really does happen.
20:40
And it's so irritating.
20:41
'cause what happens, particularly at Derby time and , other times they'll
20:44
call two or three places for 16 people and then they don't show up at yours.
20:49
And
20:50
that is.
20:50
Nancy May: them.
20:51
Yeah, I'd charge 'em a book.
20:52
Sylvia Lovely: We have started getting credit card numbers, but
20:54
anyway, it brings me to RSVP.
20:56
RSVP quickly when you get an invitation
21:00
Nancy May: absolutely.
21:00
Sylvia Lovely: on time.
21:02
Nancy May: Well, okay.
21:02
I have, a caveat to that one.
21:04
So not to RSVPing.
21:06
' cause we've sent out invitations to parties in years past.
21:08
We do a big Christmas party and there are people who just
21:11
don't know how to respond yet.
21:13
I know they're coming.
21:14
I.
21:14
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
21:14
Nancy May: I don't know how much food to cook.
21:16
I don't know if you're gonna be there.
21:17
It's a disappointment if you're not there.
21:20
just be kind enough to, to say that you'll be there, especially if it's a home party.
21:24
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, but
21:25
Nancy May: you're on my, , you know, S**T list.
21:27
If you don't
21:27
Sylvia Lovely: Mm-hmm.
21:28
Nancy May: on my side,
21:29
Sylvia Lovely: Although I think what people do, this is not good.
21:31
They hedge their bets, you know?
21:33
Nancy May: that they're gonna get to a better party
21:35
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, a better party, or they don't have that last
21:37
minute gift they have to get, or, they're gonna like keep it open.
21:41
But I, I just, I disagree with that.
21:42
I think that's bad.
21:43
So you wanna hear this one?
21:44
This one's fine.
21:45
Nancy May: Yeah, go ahead.
21:46
Sylvia Lovely: This is one of the biggest complaints about Facebook in general.
21:49
Don't post pictures of your fancy gifts.
21:53
Nancy May: Oh, that's funny.
21:55
That's funny.
21:55
My gift is better than yours.
21:57
Or better yet, you go to one of those parties after Christmas and I forget
22:01
what they call it, but you bring the gift that you don't like your worst
22:04
gift and you exchange it with others.
22:07
So , you draw numbers and say Who gets the worst gift?
22:10
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, that's hilarious.
22:11
Nancy May: a bad, it's like a bad gift swap.
22:13
It's really pretty funny.
22:14
I would never put a picture of that.
22:16
Like, 'cause all of a sudden my gift got on the bad swap
22:19
Sylvia Lovely: Well, that actually happened to me once.
22:22
I shouldn't even, I
22:22
Nancy May: oh.
22:23
Uh
22:23
Sylvia Lovely: should not even admit it.
22:25
Somebody got me a gift and I thought it was from someone else, and the person
22:31
standing there was the person, and I was like, oh, why would I ever do with this?
22:36
Nancy May: oh no.
22:37
Sylvia Lovely: Found out later that he had given it to me and I didn't know that
22:42
it was I tell you what it was, it was a disc of the movie.
22:45
It's a wonderful life, and I never thought I'd enjoy that movie,
22:48
but I actually later watched it.
22:51
I mean, that just
22:52
Nancy May: I. Think it's depressing.
22:53
I can't watch it.
22:55
Sylvia Lovely: Well, yeah.
22:56
You Yeah.
22:56
Well, it has to have a ending.
22:57
Right.
22:58
But anyway.
22:58
Nancy May: Go ahead.
22:59
Sylvia Lovely: So that's, just tacky to put your, , super gold
23:02
earrings, on display for the world and probably not safe because
23:06
somebody will come and get 'em.
23:07
Nancy May: So I, have something really quickly.
23:09
So if somebody's having a house party and they, and you offered to bring something.
23:13
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
23:14
Nancy May: The rule is ask the hostess what it is that she needs that you
23:19
can bring, because you don't wanna all of a sudden bring something now
23:22
, she's got too many desserts, or too many appetizers, or whatever it is.
23:25
Ask where she needs the help, and then make sure you stick to
23:28
what it is that you could bring.
23:29
You bring something else as well, but it could ruin their whole plans, and
23:33
Sylvia Lovely: Oh sure.
23:34
Oh no, that's good.
23:35
That's good.
23:36
Okay.
23:36
There's one time of the year that you can easily bring tacky gifts
23:42
for
23:42
people.
23:43
Nancy May: Yeah,
23:43
Sylvia Lovely: Ugly Christmas sweaters.
23:45
Nancy May: ugly Christmas sweaters or bring the fruitcake
23:47
with the ugly Christmas sweater.
23:48
Although I love fruitcakes,
23:50
Sylvia Lovely: you know, I don't, but yeah, my dad did.
23:53
tacky Christmas sweater.
23:54
People have even cra tacky Christmas sweater parties,
23:57
, okay, here's, another one.
23:58
' cause um, people do this secret Santa and they set a price limit
24:02
Nancy May: Mm-hmm.
24:03
Sylvia Lovely: and Mary exceeds the price limit.
24:06
Nancy May: Oh.
24:06
no.
24:07
Oh, no.
24:08
No.
24:09
Yeah, not that's not, that's good.
24:10
Right?
24:11
It's $10 and all of a sudden then if somebody got $50 get, there's no way
24:14
they're getting those slippers for $10.
24:15
Right.
24:18
Sylvia Lovely: Oh gosh.
24:19
, Oh, I've got a note here that I can't even think.
24:21
Nancy May: toasting?
24:22
toasting?
24:22
Has all sorts of interesting sort of etiquette and things around it.
24:27
It's
24:27
Sylvia Lovely: yeah.
24:28
Yep.
24:29
Here's some, here's something really funny about it.
24:31
Many ways to prove that you're not trying to kill the other person
24:36
Nancy May: in a toast.
24:37
Sylvia Lovely: a toast.
24:37
A theory is that if you click another loud enough, , they say that in ancient times.
24:42
That was one of the ways to prove you're not trying to kill the other
24:45
one because you clink the glass, right?
24:47
and I guess that works, but another thing.
24:49
Nancy May: it was something splashes into their glass
24:51
Sylvia Lovely: Well that, uh, yeah.
24:52
And then, , that assures the other person that there's no poison.
24:56
I mean, it's hard to believe this is actually true stuff.
24:59
And the louder the click, the greater the trust in an age of sheer
25:03
paranoia, in how did it, we evolve into no hands for eating actually.
25:08
It grew out of a fear of gluttony.
25:12
Uh, and oh, I love this etiquette books.
25:15
At the time, this was a long time ago, um, it probably in the 18 hundreds
25:20
or something, but etiquette books instructed not to use all 10 fingers ever.
25:25
You were told to eat with the three fingers on the right
25:28
hand symbolizing Trinity.
25:30
Nancy May: So three fingers on the right hand while you're
25:32
eating with your hands as opposed
25:34
Sylvia Lovely: I don't know , not sure if Matt holding your utensils
25:37
with these fingers or what, but I guess at one time, you hold your fork.
25:41
I mean, you don't just grab your fork and your
25:44
Oh, and put your whole hand around it.
25:46
Nancy May: Well, some people do.
25:48
So that's another thing, how you hold your fork and knife when you're eating.
25:52
Like some people grab it , like grabbing a stick and , my folks used
25:56
to call it, you don't shovel your food.
25:58
Yeah, number of times.
26:00
Sylvia Lovely: That's right, that's good.
26:01
That's good.
26:01
Nancy May: Yeah.
26:02
so.
26:03
Sylvia Lovely: so.
26:04
Nancy May: or washing your hands before meals.
26:06
Goodness gracious.
26:07
Who would've think that that was partially, that was
26:09
actually an etiquette thing.
26:10
That seems just like a sanitary thing, but it's actually, part
26:13
of a, . The medieval feast.
26:14
You have to wash your hands before, although.
26:17
Wait a second.
26:18
The Japanese, when you go to a Japanese restaurant, don't they give you a warm
26:22
cloth that you just wanna bathe in?
26:24
Right?
26:24
Because it feels so good.
26:26
So there is something about this purification, but a, it's a ritual.
26:31
I, it's, well, , it's manners and a ritual, I guess, all at the same time.
26:34
We'll talk about rituals at other time, but there's something that's very
26:37
interesting and I don't know how much your waiters and waitresses look at this.
26:42
But when somebody is done eating and how many people do it as a guess, how
26:48
you place your fork and your knife on your plate is signaling whether you're
26:51
not done eating or you are done eating.
26:53
And I, I can't tell you how many times I've been to a restaurant
26:56
and I have, And they don't know.
26:58
Right.
26:59
And they just want to, take away the plate of somebody who's done eating
27:02
while somebody else is still eating.
27:03
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, I know.
27:04
I
27:04
know.
27:05
Now I
27:06
Don't know that our wait staff were very careful about taking
27:09
plates away, , too quickly.
27:11
But, um, Bernie actually knew that I was like, I'm proud of him.
27:15
Nancy May: Yeah.
27:15
Well, and it, makes me feel like you don't want me there If you take my
27:19
plate away and you wanna see, you know, hurry up, hurry up, hurry up.
27:21
Sylvia Lovely: Oh no.
27:22
We are very careful about that.
27:24
How about , eating one piece at a time and avoid cutting all
27:27
your food into pieces in advance?
27:29
Is that something.
27:30
Nancy May: you're a child,
27:30
, Sylvia Lovely: Mm-hmm.
27:31
Nancy May: a little kid
27:32
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
27:32
But an adult should not do that.
27:34
Nancy May: Never do that.
27:35
It's like cutting up your, your bread and doing this.
27:37
And I wonder whether there's anything to do with dessert.
27:40
Are there any ritual?
27:41
I wish there were any manners on desserts.
27:43
I don't know.
27:44
Sylvia Lovely: I don't know either.
27:45
That's interesting.
27:46
I
27:46
do know you had one on your list.
27:48
Okay.
27:49
I'm just gonna say, if you got little kids in your family and you want peace at the
27:53
table, you are gonna give 'em that iPad.
27:56
Nancy May: Oh yeah, no electronic gadgets at the table.
27:59
Although I think that it's really important for children to learn how
28:03
to sit and behave properly at a table.
28:06
Now again, you've got a restaurant, so you probably see families come
28:10
in with their kids and you, any kid that has unruly, have you ever asked
28:14
a family to leave because is unruley?
28:16
Sylvia Lovely: Oh, no.
28:16
Oh
28:17
Nancy May: I've actually seen some restaurants tell
28:20
Sylvia Lovely: yeah.
28:20
Nancy May: people to leave because their, their kids are so bad,
28:23
Sylvia Lovely: I suppose if we ever had that.
28:24
I've just never remembered that ever happening, and I have 10 grandchildren
28:28
ranging from little to big.
28:29
Oh.
28:30
There are times when they're kids and they don't, I mean, we try to reel them in and
28:35
tell them that they can't run around and be crazy or send them up to the gardens.
28:39
We have gardens associated with our restaurant.
28:41
Nancy May: and that, , that makes sense.
28:43
But,, there are some parents who just don't care and they
28:45
let their kids run around and
28:47
figure it's a time for mom and dad to be out and just not let
28:49
somebody else baby set the, kids.
28:51
then I guess, well, How do you show, respect and appreciation to your host or
28:56
hostess at, at a, at a meal or, other than paying for, I mean if you're out together,
29:01
but do you bring a gift as a hostess gift?
29:03
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah.
29:04
Nancy May: What kind of hostess gifts do you bring?
29:06
Sylvia Lovely: Bottle of wine.
29:07
Nancy May: Okay.
29:07
I'm wondering if there are anything else that people bring.
29:09
But , food is typically a gift that people bring, , wine or something, cookies or
29:13
something that they could appreciate later on, especially on holiday times.
29:16
Sylvia Lovely: Yeah, I would never cook cookies for anybody else but, , wine
29:21
or, , something that's like really specially made like, not a dish, but
29:26
like maybe a special, I forget what my neighbor brought over some kind of s
29:30
spat bread or something from Germany.
29:33
And brought that as a little not, , it wasn't, it was a Christmas gift actually,
29:38
but which are probably easier because you can bring any number of things.
29:42
But if you're coming to an eating event,
29:44
Nancy May: Yeah.
29:44
Sylvia Lovely: wine is your safest bet.
29:46
, Nancy May: I think it certainly is, but , there's so many different ways,
29:49
to deal with manners in etiquette.
29:50
And I think , the best way is ultimately be gracious.
29:54
Be comfortable in your own skin and be appreciative of the other people
29:58
that are around you, whether it's at a meal or at a party, or it could be an
30:02
interview over a dinner that somebody has taken you out to, and then ultimately
30:07
know how to say thank you at the end.
30:09
So
30:09
Sylvia Lovely: Oh yeah.
30:10
Nancy May: with that, we'd like to say thank you for being here
30:13
for Family Tree Food and Stories.
30:15
If you haven't listened to previous shows, we've just done one on oatmeal.
30:19
If you don't know where the Scotts hide their oatmeal and days gone by,
30:24
you might wanna check on that or other holiday tips and tricks.
30:28
Just delicious treats along the way.
30:30
listen in to podcast at Family Tree Food and Stories and share it
30:33
with friends and family members.
30:34
And don't forget, you can get your own book at Amazon at My Family
30:38
Tree Food and Stories, because as we like to say, Sylvia, what is it?
30:42
Every meal has a story and every story has a feast.
30:46
Sylvia Lovely: dag gone, right?
30:47
Nancy May: Take care.
30:47
We'll see you soon, hopefully at our table,
30:50
Sylvia Lovely: Okay.