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Pathways to Apprenticeships · Insights from the Edge

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, I'm James Gordon, Senior Policy Advisor at the Edge Foundation, and in today's episodes we're exploring the pre-apprenticeship system in England and how this can be remodelled to better prepare young people and employees for apprenticeships.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: Now, the Fabian Society has recently published a new report entitled Pathways to Apprenticeships that was conducted in partnership with the Edge Foundation and the Youth Futures Foundation.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: The Charter Institute for Personnel Development, or CIPD, also contributed the report by Poly Employers.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: So for today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by the report's author, Joe Dromey, General Secretary of the Fabian Society, and Lizzie Crowley, Senior Public Policy Manager at the CIPD.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: So let's start with an overview of the pre-apprentip system and its key challenges, several of which are identified in the report.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, Joe, firstly, the big question: what do we mean by pre-apprenticeships?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: And what did you discover about the pre-apprenticeship system in its current form through your research?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: We we did kind of set out at the start to investigate what we were describing as the pre-apprenticeship system.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I think increasingly we found through the research and we said in the report that there's not really a system worthy of the name.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: So for young people who want to take the academic route, people who want to go to university, there's quite a clear and well-understood pathway.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: So from GCSEs onto A levels and then onto university applying via UCAS.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: But we found that the system for young people who don't want to take that route, particularly the system for young people who want to take an apprenticeship, is much less clear.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a much greater variety of pathways for young people looking to take an apprenticeship.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's been significant policy churn in the area, and the kind of pre-apprenticeship pathways are really poorly understood, both by young people, by parents, by teachers and employers as well.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we also found a number of other challenges with the kind of pre-apprenticeship pathways.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: So particularly the lack of employer engagement.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there's been a lot of uh a lot of qualifications, a lot of pathways that aim to support people towards an apprenticeship, so traineeships, uh T levels, V levels coming in, uh the new foundation apprenticeships.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: But we found that a really consistent challenge uh with these pathways, and a consistent challenge to be honest, with much of the rest of the technical education system was that too few employers were engaging with this system and offering uh young people opportunities.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Jane.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and as part of that report, Lizzie, CIPD conducted some polling of employers as well as some previous work that you've done in that area.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do employers view pre-apprenticeships?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Our previous research and found that around three in ten employers say that introducing a pre-apprenticeship training program would encourage them to recruit more young apprentices.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So there is evidence that employers see value in helping young people build their skills and experience before starting an apprenticeship.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the polling we actually included within the Fabian report on related programs also suggested, you know, a willingness by employers to provide opportunities.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So among employers who hadn't offered a T-level industry placement, around half said they might be willing to do so in the future.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And nearly six in ten said they would be willing to take on a foundation apprentice.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we'll explore later.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's been very low take up of those, unfortunately.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: However, the challenge is turning um that interest into participation.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And as Joe rightly kind of mentioned, employer engagement in these programs has been relatively weak within the UK.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And smaller businesses in particular, you know, who lack an HR limited time to understand these types of programs and concerns about how much support that a young person will need.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So those are really big barriers to the uptake of pre-apprenticeship programs.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And traineeships offer a really useful lesson here, even though they had actually really quite good outcomes for the young people who participated of them, we never reap the scale that was needed to provide a sustained pathway into an apprenticeship program.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, in terms of the importance of pre-apprenticeships, Joe, why is it important that we strengthen pre-apprentip pathways?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need to uh acknowledge there's a big problem on the demand side.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So uh whilst many employers are doing the right thing and investing in their staff, overall employers are not investing enough in the skills uh of our workforce uh and in apprenticeships in particular.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we've seen that when employers do invest in skills, they are more likely to invest in the qualifications and training of people who are already well qualified.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a revealed preference for employers investing in people who are already well qualified.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we've seen since the introduction of the apprenticeship levy a big decline both in the number of apprenticeships overall, but particularly the number of apprenticeships going to young people and those from disadvantaged backgrounds.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, first and foremost, we we absolutely need to boost employer investment in training, including in apprenticeships.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we set out some recommendations as to how we think the government could do this in a report that we released last year.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: But alongside that demand side issue, we think there's also a supply side problem.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lack of a kind of clear pre-apprenticeship pathway, and that means that young people who want to access an apprenticeship don't have a clear path to get where they want to go, and they aren't effectively prepared for an apprenticeship if they do find one.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we say in in the report, for example, that uh strengthening the pre-apprenticeship uh system and building effective pre-apprenticeship pathways could help to address the quite significant level of uh non-completion that we see, the very large number of young people who start an apprenticeship but don't complete and achieve their apprenticeship.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we also argue that there's a kind of potentially a self-reinforcing and mutually beneficial relationship on the demand and the supply side.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we argue that if we better support young people to be ready for apprenticeships, we can unlock employer demand.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because one of the concerns that employers have at the moment is about young people not necessarily being ready for an apprenticeship.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen some very good examples, for example, in the West Midlands combined authority, where effective pre-apprenticeship support focused on young people, not in education, employment, and training, has encouraged employers to take on these young people.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's had a demand side impact as well.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's so important the point around de-risking employers taking on apprentices and also uh the relationship between uh completion rates and pre-apprenticeships.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, Lizzie, from your perspective, could a more effective pre-apprenticeship system unlock demand for apprenticeships from employers?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think it could, but also I do really want to reiterate um, you know, some of the points that Joe just made around the lack of employer investment overall and training as workforce.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: We need to have a shift in that type of view.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Employers cannot just expect to recruit kind of ready-made employees.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: They need to be investing and supporting those individuals, um, sort of move into the workplace.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also think we need to recognise the Employment Rights Act and the impact that it might have on employer hiring behaviour as it increases the risks that employers face when recruiting a young person with no experience.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: A pre-apprenticeship program could help de-risk that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that that is an important role that it could potentially play in in mitigating some of the risks associated with the Employment Rights Act and the slowdown in hiring by business.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as Jo mentioned, there are some good examples out there, um, and the West Midlands program in particular is a good place to start when thinking about the design of such a program, um, because it starts with an actual vacancy and works backwards.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: So designing the training around that specific need, supporting the young person into a real opportunity.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because we know that if young people are just forced through a program and there's not an actual opportunity at the end of that, what will end up happening is that we've got more young people competing for the same number of places.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we really need to, alongside a better pre-apprenticeship offer, is boosting the number of available apprenticeship places that those young people can go into.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Pre-apprentips very much kind of a step on that ladder.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if there's no step beyond that, then uh kind of overall some of the purpose of the pre-apprentip in itself.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: And we also know that Alan Milburn is looking closely at how the pre-apprenticeship system could be reformed as part of his much anticipated review into young people and work.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: So Lizzie, starting with you this time, what are some of the changes to pre-apprenticeships that you would like to see Alan Milburn recommend in his final report?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really positive that we've heard um Alan Milburn talk about establishing the need to establish a systematic and a pre-apprenticeship program.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'd really like to see is a plan in that about how it's going to boost sufficient opportunities, both for young people and as well as unlocking those placements in employers.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So ensuring that there is meaningful workplace experience, a training developed with employers and a clear route into an apprenticeship opportunity.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So young people need to know where it will take them, and businesses need to understand what they're being asked to provide.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are lessons from traineeships that we can learn about building kind of effective employer engagement in the program from the outset, as well as ensuring that the program reflects young people's different needs and starting points.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: The program should not necessarily be a one size fits all offer.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And at the CIPD, we believe that any such pre-apprenticeship program should sit within a broader apprenticeship guarantee.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So guaranteeing an opportunity for every young person aged 16 to 24 years old.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so for that to be successful, we really need to think about how do we subsidize those initial six months of wage costs for employers when actually that young person isn't necessarily being productive in the workplace and also requires additional sustained support and mentoring.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: That apprenticeship guarantee that you mentioned is a really interesting proposal.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Other one would definitely swing the balance in the apprenticeship system back towards young people.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, Joe, coming back to you, uh, Pathways to Apprenticeships sets out a series of recommendations for government aimed at supporting more young people into high quality apprenticeships.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Could you talk us through some of these?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I think firstly we need to again start with the demand side, because as you were saying, James, if we're, you know, even if we provide better pre-apprenticeship support, if the opportunities aren't available, then young people won't be able to benefit from them.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we again kind of set out recommendations to boost demand for an investment in uh apprenticeships.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we've suggested increasing the apprenticeship levy over time to 0.7% of payroll and also reducing the threshold at which employers start paying the levy.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: So medium-sized employers are also paying the levy.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that would raise about$2.5 billion by the end of the parliament.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if the government is unwilling to increase the kind of labour costs for employers, which is understandable given the kind of focus on the cost of business at the moment, there's other things that they could do, such as uh shifting the kind of amount of funding that an employer can get for a young person versus uh an older apprentice.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so firstly, we've got to do something to boost employer demand and willingness to invest in young people.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: But then we set out a number of recommendations for the kind of pre-apprenticeship system uh itself.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, firstly, we called for reform of the 14 to 16 system so that there's a greater focus on vocational opportunities for more young people alongside academic study.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we've called for the introduction of VCSEs to go alongside GCSE so young people can take a mixture of high-quality vocational provision alongside GCSE and to kind of boost the uh awareness and the esteem and the recognition of this 14 to 16 technical pathway, but not have it as a separate pathway with young people divided at 14 between vocational and academic.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, secondly, we've talked about reforming foundation apprenticeships to ensure that they're an effective pathway to apprenticeship.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think some of the thinking behind foundation apprenticeships was was really important.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but as Lizzie said, they've they've struggled.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: In the first nine months, there were fewer than 200 starts against a kind of an aspiration for up to 30,000 this parliament.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: So they're they're kind of somewhere behind the kind of run rate that they would need to be to get to that target.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we've called for foundation apprenticeships to be made more flexible, to be expanded to other industries, and crucially to shift the incentive by enabling employers to use their levy funds to pay for some of the costs of pay for a young people on a foundation apprenticeship.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: These young people, uh, we can't expect them to go in and immediately be productive employees.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to acknowledge that and recognise that the cost that employers pay in taking on and giving a chance to young people.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then thirdly, and this is somewhere where I think we we slightly disagree with Milburn.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Milburn over the weekend really importantly was saying there needs to be stronger pre-apprenticeship support.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: We very much welcome that.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but his kind of solution was a national program.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think here there's much more scope for regional leaders to develop effective pre-apprenticeship pathways along the lines of path to apprenticeships in the West Midlands combined authority.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um so they're the ones who uh really understand local communities, they've got good links with local employers.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so we've suggested that there'd be a 5% kind of top slice of the levy devolved to mayors and other regional leaders to create a regional apprenticeship fund, enabling locally elected leaders to build effective local pre-apprenticeship pathways that start with a vacancy and work their way back and support young people towards those apprenticeships.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then beyond those kind of recommendations on the pathways themselves, we think we need to look at the wider system.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, particularly improving careers, information, advice, and guidance.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've come a long way there in recent years, but there's more to do to ensure that young people who want to pursue the vocational path get the same kind of quality of uh information, advice and guidance.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: And on the topic of devolution, we've obviously seen uh major announcements over the past few months around devolution of the 16 to 19 education budget to mayoral strategical authorities, as well as the involvement of mayors in creating the new 14-16 vocational pathways that you mentioned, Jo.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: So thinking about this new uh devolved policy landscape, Lizzie, do you foresee any potential challenges or opportunities arising from mayors' involvement in the pre-apprendership system?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are significant opportunities here.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: However, I do think we need to acknowledge the increased complexity that might arise within a system that employers have to navigate, many of which operate over the whole of the UK rather than just in Pacific areas.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, however, I do think that mayoral authorities are the right place to start, particularly in their role in bringing together and connecting part of the system.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So bringing together employers, colleges, schools, and employment support, and linking to opportunities that are available locally.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: One of the kind of really positive announcements that I've heard is around the rolling out of the increased investment within the apprenticeship brokerage service with funding being extended to all existing mayoral authorities from next year.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: But how those services actually work will be crucial.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Brokerage can't just be simply selling in starts or matching a young person to a vacancy.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: It needs to be integrated business skills and people management support.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that again comes back to one of the problems with devolved approaches.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: We know that they're actually a very patchwork of existing business support infrastructure over those areas.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Some are incredibly strong and have delivered great business support for quite a significant amount of time through the growth hubs.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Others is actually really quite weak links with local businesses.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to actually have really strong brokerage in place that helps employers identify what are the skills that actually they require to help their business grow, and then helping them to understand how an apprenticeship or a pre-apprenticeship could help add value to their organization, and then supporting them to design that suitable role, and then also helping them once the individual is in place with recruitment, induction, supervision, and mentoring.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Edge at the moment is doing some research around different models of brokerage, and something that's come through from that is the importance of having that integrated one-stop shop for business support as well as kind of wider skill support locally, as we've seen, for example, in the Solar Growth Partnership.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thinking about how we engage employers, uh, we've mentioned the past example of traineeships.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: One of the reasons why that program ended is around declining employer engagement in that program.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And Joe, you've also spoken about the relatively low uptake of foundation apprenticeships by employers so far.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, Lizzie, do you think that the government should be looking at additional incentives to encourage employers to take on foundation apprentices?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I really think there is a case for boosting the financial support that is available to firms.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, we know that grants already exist for foundation apprenticeships.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: However, as Joe mentioned earlier, take up has been really quite embarrassingly low.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think we do need to recognise even with incentives, employers still face, you know, quite a number of additional costs from wages, but also in that investment in supervision and training.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that these are significant barriers to businesses.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: So our previous research has shown that financial incentives were the most commonly identified measure when we asked employers about actually what would encourage them to recruit more young apprentices.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: His report proposes increasing these grants and also allowing levy funding to cover the foundation apprentices' wage costs.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: However, we do need to recognise that wider barriers also need addressing.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: So concerns have been reported in the sector about the training delivery.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And also there's some kind of concerns reported around the sectors that were chosen as well as the kind of design of the program.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to be addressing those wider barriers as alongside reducing the cost to business of taking on that young person if we're really going to boost demand.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, Joe, looking back to your report, do you have any other thoughts on how we can better engage employers in pre-apprenticeships?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is a big area of concern for us, both the kind of limited engagement of employers in in pre-apprenticeships, but also the wider technical education system.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think we should start by saying a very large number of employers are really committed to investing in their workforce and providing them with opportunities.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they recognise that in the medium term, that is good for their business.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: But we also know that too many employers are not sufficiently investing in their skills.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: The proportion of employers investing in uh work-related training has declined significantly over the last uh sort of 10 years.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the amount invested per worker has also uh declined significantly uh as well.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we make some recommendations in the report specifically around pre-apprenticeship pathways.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, as I said, we we've suggested that employers should be able to access levy funds to cover half of the costs of the um pay of some a young person on a foundation apprenticeship.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we've also suggested increasing the kind of grant uh funding both for a T-level placement and for a foundation apprenticeship, because the the amount for both of them is relatively small at the moment compared to the costs that employers face.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think we need to look beyond financial incentives as well.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's more that we could do around business support and advice, helping employers understand the support that there is available to them and understanding the benefits of investing uh in training and skills.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Jay.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you to you too, Lizzie.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's been great to hear both of your views on pre-apprenticeships today.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: You can read Pathways to Apprenticeships online now on the Fabian Society website.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be back very soon with another episode of Insights from the Edge.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: See you then.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast was produced by the Edge Foundation.