Latest / The SmallBizChat with Melinda Emerson / Mastering Marketing and Sales with Darren Moffatt

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Mastering Marketing and Sales with Darren Moffatt · The SmallBizChat with Melinda Emerson

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I would say it's right down the bottom.
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So it's when people have passed from awareness through interest and they're down to
0:07
consideration, Right?
0:08
So they're they're really looking at you or your business to solve their problem.
0:12
They're gonna they're they're really looking at you, hard in terms of purchasing your product
0:17
or engaging your services.
0:18
And so you need to be doing everything you can at that point to get them to take the final
0:24
step.
0:25
And so a lot of that is around social proof, your testimonials, reviews, case studies, all
0:31
those kinds of things can really help tip people over the edge, but, you know, I like to
0:36
go old school down, write down in that part of the funnel, is human.
0:39
It's it's human to human contact.
0:40
It's conversational.
0:41
It's picking up the phone.
0:43
It's having video chats.
0:45
Whatever it might be, you've gotta really focus on that human connection because people buy
0:51
from other people, you know, that's still how it works even in the digital space.
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10, 10, ignition,
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liftoff.
1:05
Ending small business failure.
1:07
Welcome to the small biz chat podcast with the number one small business spurt, Melinda
1:13
Emerson.
1:14
Melinda's goal is to end small business failure, and she'll give you the information
1:19
you need to succeed and live the life you dream of.
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Now here's your host, the small Biz chat lady herself, Melinda Emerson.
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Hi, everybody.
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Welcome to another edition of the small biz chat podcast.
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I'm Melinda Emerson, the small biz lady.
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America's number one small business expert And I am so excited to welcome you to another
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episode.
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We are gonna be talking about sales lead gen.
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Oh my.
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Okay.
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So we're gonna be talking about lots of tips and tools that gonna be beneficial to you as
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you try to build that all important sales engine in your business.
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Today, my guest is Darren Moffett, He is the founder and chief nerd of nerds of business,
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and he is host of the nerds of business podcast.
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He is a award winning business person who is passionate about entrepreneurship.
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He is a recognized leader in both the financial services and digital marketing industry with
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over 20 years of experience and has helped 100 of businesses grow.
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He launched his first startup in 2006 and in 2012.
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He was the co founder of a tech startup that they called sort of like the Facebook for
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neighbors.
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It was called HouseNET, the social network site was later awarded 1 of the top 100 innovation
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awards in Australia in the smart 100 index.
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Since 2014, Darren has been of digital strategy and content at webbuzz.com.
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So I am so excited to have you here today, Darren, if you guys want more information about
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him, head over to nerds of business.com.
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Darren, welcome to the Small Bishop podcast.
3:02
Well, hi, Melinda.
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Thank you for having me.
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I'm really, really excited to be here.
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Oh my gosh.
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I was so excited to talk to you, a a a fellow nerd of business.
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I love that, by the way.
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So so tell me your origin story.
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How did you become, you know, an entrepreneurship guru?
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Well, look, that is a very long story, and I know we've gotten rid of time.
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So I'll give you the sort of, 62nd very compressed version.
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Okay?
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Look, I would say that it actually started in bands, in music, I used to play, playing bands
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and rock bands in Sydney Australia.
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And I was kind of managing bands as well, and that's where I discovered my entrepreneurial
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bent.
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I made a lot of mistakes along the way.
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Had a lot of fun, but from there, I you know, went into, I was in financial services as well
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as a day gig working in banking and so on.
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And then I just spotted a an opportunity, you know, like, I was working in equity release or
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reversed mortgages.
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I think you have them over there in the States as sort of loans for people, older people.
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And, I spotted a gap in the market sort of rather than being a lender in that space, I
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could see an opportunity as a broker because there was many lenders.
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And I launched a business called seniors first.
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And, that business is still going today 15, 16 years later, very successful.
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And really, that's where I got into marketing and sales, and I taught myself how to blog.
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Actually, I started blogging 2008.
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And from there, got quite good at digital, and some other business started asking me to help
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them as well.
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So here we are in 2022, and, I think, you know, I've generated, yeah, sort of well over 200,000
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leads from for clients and myself, since, since that very inauspicious beginning.
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Well, I wanna go back to the 200,000 leads for people.
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That is no small feat people.
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Uh-huh.
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So so tell me so tell me How did you create the nerds of business?
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Like, what is that?
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Well, that's, that is actually a, a response to the stress of the pandemic.
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I I was, like, a lot of people was having a bit of a nervous breakdown and, I I really felt
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like I wanted to start a podcast and I felt like I had quite a lot, you know, I accumulated
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a fair bit of business knowledge and marketing expertise over the years, and I I wanted to,
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find a a medium to share it.
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And I just I I, you know, I came up with this concept of of of nerds and business thought it
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was pretty catchy.
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And so I launched a podcast in, 2020 and really the first series on branding, and we did
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another series on development.
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We went really, really nerdy on how to develop products and design products.
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Then the most, most recent series was on the mindset of the entrepreneur And now we're going
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into, lead generation.
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So, yeah, we kinda tackle a theme each series, and and it's a it's designed to really educate
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business owners and entrepreneurs with some of the best minds out there, practicing in these
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particular fields.
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Love it.
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Love it.
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Love it.
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So your your passion is really teaching people marketing and sales.
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Right?
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So if you wanted to focus, like, have a small business focus on their sales.
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Where would you have them start?
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Wow.
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That's a big question.
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So look, I think ultimately, you know, there's so many ways to sort of come at that question,
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but, the thing I would say is you've really gotta be focused on the problem you're solving
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for your core target market.
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And start simple.
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Just focus on one problem.
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Focus on one use case or one buyer persona is the technical the term there, sort of 11 sort
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of composite character of your target market, and and just get really good at that.
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You know, just understand that problem inside and out understand, how you can help solve that
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problem, what your core value proposition is, you know, really your point of difference, and
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you really wanna get good at your elevator pitch.
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So when you're at a barbecue or a bar or a cafe or some sort of networking event, you've gotta
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be really good at saying in 10, 15 seconds exactly who you help and what you do.
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I agree with you.
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I'm I believe in that sort of, like, x, y, z method.
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I do this for this group of people, and we generate these kind of results.
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That's right.
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That's that's it.
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That that's the pitch.
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So You say they've gotta focus on their their one issue and their one target customer.
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Right?
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So it's like their one thing they're fixing in their one target customer.
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So why do you think people so many small business owners struggle with marketing sales?
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It's like they know how to make their widgets.
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They might even know who their customer is, but they struggle with the actual marketing and
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sales end of it.
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Yes.
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Well, there there's many reasons for that, but they all nominate one big one.
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And I I think, they're not tapping into the into their EQ they're not tapping into their
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empathy, into their emotional intelligence, right, because ultimately sales and marketing
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is all about EQ, putting yourself in the mindset of your customer, understanding their
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pain points, understanding their problems, their journey, and and and really stripping
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your own ego out of it.
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You know, that's that comes down to to really taking your ego out of it, which, can be a
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problem for some of us like me, whatever, but that you've gotta you've gotta get good at
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that.
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But I think To be fair to business owners, it's not that they don't have the EQ in many cases
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or most cases.
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It's just that they're time haul.
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So they're too busy.
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It's and and they've got too many, pots on the boil on the stove, so to speak, to use a
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cooking analogy and it makes it difficult for them to just zone in, get a zen like sort of
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calm presence and really focus on that customer need?
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So their time poor that it's hard for them to focus on their customer need So what should
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they do?
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Well, you know, they they could read a book like your book, they they could consult consult
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a someone, very smart and and experience like like you and many, but many other good
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consultants out there.
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But, look, if you're a small business owner on a limited budget, what you can really do is
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just set aside some time every day just to read or to listen to podcasts or whatever it might
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be, get some great stimulus and great import from other people out there who who been on
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this journey longer, who are further down that path and really, teach yourself, you know, d
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DIY that I'm a big believer in DIY.
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And I think these days, there's enough, there's enough tools, courses, platforms out there
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where if you've got sufficient time, and it can educate yourself.
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You don't need to pay for expensive consultants.
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You can essentially do it yourself.
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Alright.
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So you just open up the door.
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Give me your top 3, you know, internet marketing books who who wrote them.
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Alright.
10:13
Okay.
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That's, it changes, but, the first one I like, for entrepreneurs and, startups is called the
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art of the start by a guy Kawasaki.
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I know.
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Very well.
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Yeah.
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You know, Guy?
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Oh, wow.
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Okay.
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I've I've never I don't think I've spoken with someone that knows him personally.
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So that book is just amazing for really it's it's like a it's a it's like a guide book.
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You know, I I often even after all these years, we'll just pick it up and and look at a
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particular thing I might need a bit of help with.
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So that's a great one for business people who are starting out in that early stage, you know,
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journey.
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The other one I like is is Seth Godin's, obviously, you know, huge figure in in
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marketing, and I'm a I'm a huge fan of his and his podcast.
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He's got so many good books, but the one that I I probably go to is what purple cow is a big
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one, but he's he's most recent one is this is Mark and he's also very good.
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So Seth Goden, The only one that
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Purple Cow is actually my favorite seth go to book 2, by the way, just side by.
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Yeah.
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I think that's the one that we're he really kind of became more widely known, you know, he
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was obviously a a real guru before that, but that really took him over the top into the
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wider business community.
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And the other one, that I like is contagious.
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So contagious is is around, you know, viral marketing and and and, you know, how ideas
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spread and stuff like that.
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So, yeah, there's my thread.
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Alright.
11:44
I love it.
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I love it.
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I it's interesting.
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I was I wasn't sure what you were gonna say, but I I I was familiar with all of those books,
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so I'm glad to know that great minds think alike.
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So, When you think about the sales funnel, I think the sales funnel has been transformed as
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much as traditional marketing has been formed.
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And, I'm wondering what your thought is around.
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What is the most important step in the sales funnel today.
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Okay.
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So just to clarify, we're we're talking sales funnel as a distinct from marketing funnel.
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Is that right?
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So I use those 2 interchangeably.
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So I I think that if we're talking about brand awareness, consideration, sales, retention,
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advocacy.
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That's what I'm talking about when I talk about sales funnel.
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Mhmm.
12:40
Yep.
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Okay.
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Well, I mean, again, it kinda depends where you're coming at it from.
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Like, if if you're if you you wanna get volume, then the top of the funnel where you're getting
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more, you know, the quantum of people in, like lots of people in coming into the funnel is the
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most important because, assuming that all other steps of your funnel are working and converting
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at a reasonable rate, that's just gonna spit out more more sales at the bottom.
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But that usually takes a pretty significant investment of ad spend or, you know, you've
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gotta buy the traffic from somewhere, So in terms of, the most valuable part of the funnel
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for small businesses, I would say it's right down the bottom.
13:23
So it's when people have passed from awareness through interest and they're down to
13:28
consideration, Right?
13:29
So they're they're really looking at you or your business to solve their problem.
13:33
They're gonna they're they're really looking at you, hard in terms of purchasing your product
13:38
or engaging your services.
13:40
And so you need to be doing everything you can at that point to get them to take the final
13:46
step.
13:46
And so a lot of that around, a lot of that is around social proof, you know, testimonials,
13:53
reviews, case studies, all those kinds of things can really help tip people over the
13:58
edge, but, you know, I like to go old school down write down in that part of the funnel,
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it's it's it's it's human.
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It's it's human to human contact.
14:05
It's conversational.
14:06
It's picking up the phone.
14:08
It's having video chats.
14:10
Whatever it might be, you've gotta really focus on that human connection, because people people
14:16
buy from other people, you know, that's that's that's still how it works even in the digital
14:22
space.
14:23
I agree with you.
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I think it just takes a little bit longer because if you meet somebody in person, What
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does it take about 3 to 4 contacts before you get to, like, you know, okay.
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I like this person.
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I trust this person.
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Maybe they can do business with me.
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But when you connect with somebody online, it's about, what, 7 quality contacts up to about 30.
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Before somebody really takes you seriously and really kinda wants to hear what you have to
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say.
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And so you really kinda have to put that time in to really get to that, like, you know, and
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trust that you were just talking about.
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Because I think it's harder online
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It is.
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It is.
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But if I here's a here's a good hack.
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I can give you listeners, and and you probably already know this because you're doing it
15:05
yourself.
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But this is where podcasting is really powerful.
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So in my sort of agency business, if I'm, corresponding, you know, I'm having meetings
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and chat with people that might be seeking to engage us as a service provider.
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I will often, you know, share links to various podcast episodes with that person.
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And I find that that really helps speed that process up because, and particularly because
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we're doing a lot of B2B stuff, in our podcast nurture business.
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We've got some really good episodes focused on B2B.
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And when I share that, I find that, you know, podcast is such an intimate medium.
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They hear your voice.
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They get to know the way you speak, your intonation, and so on.
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And it really it accelerates that trust process.
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So there's a good little hack.
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If you're out there doing any podcast, use it at the bottom of the sales funnel because it
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really does help to build that personal connection.
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You know, that's actually a tip I have never thought about.
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So you're actually on here educating me, Darren.
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Well, there you go.
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I mean, look, I I, you know, I do my best.
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I'm I'm now on my second coffee, so maybe that's what it is.
16:14
Alright.
16:15
So tell me about The top 3 things that small business owners should know about lead gen and
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about lead generation and why it's so important.
16:25
Great.
16:25
Well, look, firstly, here's something that it took me a long time to learn, and I I really
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can't find anyone else out there talking about this particular thing.
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So I'm quite passionate about sharing this insight with the people, and that is that going
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back to the sales funnel, right, so from aware awareness to interest to consideration and then
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finally to conversion as a lead the biggest problem I see out there in, campaigns run by
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agencies as well, but also business owners is that they don't align all the different
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components of a of a campaign with the the stage of the funnel.
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So what I mean by that is that if you're doing lead generation online, you've got probably 4
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components.
17:11
Right?
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You you've got, you've got your the ads.
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You've got the landing page.
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You've got the hook and you've got the story.
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Right?
17:19
And you and your offer, you know, might be part of that.
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With a lead magnet or whatever.
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You've got to align all those things to the same part of the sales funnel.
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So for instance, if you're going for people at the top of the funnel who are just barely
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problem aware, they're doing a bit of research.
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They wanna get some knowledge some information about this issue they're having, then
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everything should be aligned to that part of the funnel.
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So you shouldn't be asking, for instance, for, like, 10 questions on a web form at that point.
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It's too much.
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They don't know.
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Right?
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Your lead magnet should should be lighter.
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It should be more like a an ebook or a checklist or something like that.
17:59
Right?
17:59
But, you know, contrast that with down at the bottom of the funnel, someone who's already
18:04
knows the problem.
18:05
They that's solution aware they're actively looking at solutions.
18:09
Well, then at that point, you be more sophisticated.
18:12
You know, you can ask for more data on the web form.
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You can you can maybe you're offering a webinar there as as as the lead magnet and so on.
18:19
So that's the app absolute biggest problem I see is that people are misaligning the
18:24
different components of their campaign with the the stage of the funnel, and that's that causes
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a lot of wasted ad spend and and a low conversion rate and that's very unhappy
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business owners.
18:38
I I couldn't agree with you more.
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I mean, I think there is specific content you want at the top of the funnel middle of the
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funnel and bottom of the funnel.
18:47
You know?
18:47
I mean, I just think but but I agree with you.
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I don't know that it's always aligned.
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And it might be, like, too basic of content versus more specific content.
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Then, actually, when it comes to my blog, we actually are very intentional about this.
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We write content, we publish content, fresh content for me four times a month.
19:10
And so we're very intentional about focusing on 2 of the articles for more startup side hustle
19:17
kind of audience.
19:18
And then 2 of the articles are hardcore for like existing entrepreneurs or trying to figure
19:23
out how to grow, how to scale, you know, like, like, introducing some new technology that
19:28
they're not familiar with that would be way over the head of of a more startup type
19:33
business.
19:34
So I and we always think about that even in our, you know, our blog content because it's
19:39
like, we gotta make sure that we're not losing somebody and that we have content that's
19:43
relevant for, you know, at least 2 different segments that we target with our business.
19:48
Yeah.
19:48
Absolutely.
19:50
So Should a business have multiple forms of lead gen activities going on at once?
20:02
Well, again, I think it goes to, the resources that the business has.
20:06
I mean, My number one rule is to be realistic about your own resources.
20:11
Like, you know, the resources are usually for nights, you know, particularly in small
20:15
business.
20:16
So if if if you're too stretched over too many different activities, you're just not gonna do
20:22
anything that well.
20:23
Like, it's better to focus on on in my view, fewer or less activities with regard to
20:30
marketing or lead generation and and do those really well rather than spread it too too
20:36
widely.
20:36
But having said that, just to sort of fully answer your question, I think that the most
20:41
effectively generation campaigns are those that that, you know, you have the primary funnel,
20:45
and then you've got the secondary funnel, and you've got the stuff happening in the
20:48
background.
20:48
So for instance, you you might be, you know, doing blogs or content marketing, but you're
20:54
crazy in my view not to invest a time in content marketing and SEO and blogging and so
20:58
on.
20:59
Without also investing some dollars, very, very minimal dollars in remarketing or retargeting,
21:04
right, because that's just gonna give you massive bang for Bakken.
21:08
For people that don't know about retargeting, it's those ads that stalk you around the
21:12
internet.
21:12
You know, you you you might be looking at a pair of shoes and you you your child calls you
21:17
away, you know, because spilt their drink and you come back 20 minutes later and you're on
21:20
Facebook and there's there's that ad for that same pair of shoes that you didn't buy.
21:24
Right?
21:24
That's that's retargeting remarketing.
21:26
And pound per pound per pound or well, hang on a minute, we're in we're in America here.
21:30
So I'll use dollar for dollar.
21:33
Dollar for dollar retargeting is like your best value advertising, you'll ever spend.
21:38
Right?
21:38
It's it's really, really cheap compared to other forms of advertising.
21:42
So, yeah, so I would say focus on doing fewer things really well, but when it comes to SEO
21:48
and blogging and content marketing, definitely support that with retargeting.
21:53
I think that is brilliant brilliant brilliant advice.
21:58
Now in that same line of questioning, Do you feel like lead gen is different for B2C
22:05
Businessesversusbtobbusinesses?
22:09
Yes.
22:09
It is.
22:10
That's a great question.
22:11
I love that question, Linda.
22:13
So, there's been studies on this.
22:15
B to b actually has a, a much higher trust threshold than b to c.
22:18
Now that sounds counterintuitive.
22:20
Right?
22:20
You think, oh, consumers would be harder to gain the trust, but it's actually that's not
22:25
correct.
22:25
It's businesses.
22:26
By a factor of about 5 and, in fact, businesses are harder to get the trust.
22:32
And the reason they're they're harder when you're thinking about it, it does make sense.
22:35
Is that there's more at stake.
22:37
So, you know, if you step up, the the marketing or sales funnel for a business, that has really
22:44
significant flow and effects.
22:46
And that that affects their sales, volume, their revenue.
22:49
It can affect, you know, whether or not they can meet payroll, pay their staff, and so on.
22:53
Right?
22:53
Really, really important.
22:54
Whereas, you know, if if someone of consumer doesn't like the widget that you're selling,
22:59
well, okay, they might complain on social media, but it it's it's not the end of the
23:04
world.
23:05
Right.
23:05
So so, yeah, b b to b has a much, much, higher trusted barrier, but here's where it gets
23:13
really interesting.
23:14
The most effective B2B campaigns actually take the best elements of B2C.
23:19
That is they don't talk to businesses like other businesses.
23:23
They talk to businesses like humans, like people.
23:26
So this is the re the real took me a while to learn this, actually.
23:30
This is the real, key insight is when you're doing B2B, don't be boring, don't be bland,
23:36
don't corporate, don't be talking to businesses like their organizations, inject that humidity,
23:42
inject the fun, inject the pathos, in in whatever it is, That's how you engage people
23:47
because ultimately at the end of the day, companies, businesses, ventures, and so on,
23:51
they are just collectively groups of people.
23:54
Love it.
23:55
Love it.
23:55
Alright.
23:56
So what is the best way to track all this marketing activity?
23:59
We're doing all this stuff.
24:01
We're developing content.
24:02
We're doing remarketing ads.
24:04
Okay.
24:05
What's the best way to track all this stuff?
24:08
Okay.
24:09
Well, I thought no one would ever ask me that question.
24:12
Melinda, you've you've you've asked me the question.
24:13
I've been waiting my whole life to be asked.
24:16
So so I'm gonna get super nerdy on you now.
24:19
Right?
24:19
Like, I'm gonna freak your listeners out.
24:21
They're just gonna go, god, this guy is so nerdy.
24:23
Right?
24:24
We're gonna talk about 2 types of data here.
24:26
Qualitative data and quantitative data.
24:29
Right?
24:30
So you I'm sure you already know this, but for your listeners, I'll break it down.
24:33
Right?
24:33
So quantitative data is the numbers.
24:35
Right?
24:36
So that's your Google analytics.
24:37
That's your conversion rate, how many people are going, what percentage of people are
24:41
converting through a particular part of your funnel or, you know, becoming a lead on a web
24:46
form.
24:46
Right?
24:46
That's your quantitative data.
24:48
Your qualitative data is the why.
24:51
And so this is, in in many respects, much more interesting.
24:56
It's like, well, why are people clicking on that button.
25:00
Why aren't people converting on that web form?
25:03
Why aren't people sharing that bit of content?
25:05
And to get your qualitative data, you use some other really cool tools.
25:10
My favorite one is is called hotjar.
25:12
So hotjar is where you can actually, it shows you heat mapping where so where people are
25:18
clicking on the web page, and it also videos actual users going through your page.
25:24
So you can see how people are interacting with your page content, with your web form, and so
25:29
on.
25:29
And this is giving you the why question.
25:32
So the the Google analytics is for is is your is all the numbers.
25:36
You need that.
25:37
Really important, but it doesn't tell you why stuff is happening.
25:40
The qualitative data with tools such as hotjar, does explain the why.
25:46
Love it.
25:47
Love it.
25:47
Love it.
25:47
I think that's really important what you just said.
25:50
It's like, why are they or why aren't they?
25:53
Both of those questions are worth investigating.
25:56
It sounds like.
25:58
So tell me something.
25:59
What is the best best business book that you've ever read to inspire you.
26:05
The best business book?
26:08
Oh, right.
26:08
Wow.
26:09
The the the one I find most inspiring.
26:14
Again, you know, jeez, there's so many I could I could pluck out of the air there, one that
26:18
immediately springs to mind is, it starts with y.
26:21
So, by Simon Scenic, and, you know, yeah, you're nodding.
26:26
You know that book as well.
26:27
It's a very famous book.
26:29
But what what that book does so well is that it clarifies your mission, your purpose, who
26:35
you're serving, and why.
26:37
And and ultimately, I think all business owners, need to have that clarity of purpose.
26:42
And if you if you know, you know, a, you know, what you're doing, but more importantly, you
26:46
know, why you're doing it and who you're doing it for, then everything just becomes so much
26:50
easier.
26:52
I I could not agree with you more And tell me your favorite old school marketing hack.
27:00
Favorite old school marketing hack.
27:02
Well, you're really you're putting me through my paces today, Melinda.
27:05
I've gotta say I I'm I'm I'm working hard.
27:07
There's I I I might be looking like a swan, you know, gliding or I'm I'm actually not looking
27:12
like a swan one is graceful.
27:13
I'm I'm the opposite of a swan, but if I was a a a very daggy swan, there'd be a lot of
27:19
furious paddling going under, underwater here.
27:22
So old school marketing hack, let me, let me say this direct mail is not there.
27:30
Direct mail is not there.
27:31
So direct mail is is still an incredibly powerful channel.
27:36
People gets overlooked these days because of the, the proliferation of digital with Facebook
27:42
and Google and Instagram and TikTok and all the rest of it.
27:44
But if you wanna really cut through with an audience that is saturated, you're suffering
27:49
content saturation.
27:50
Direct me off can be a very good channel.
27:52
Excellent.
27:53
Excellent.
27:54
And last question for you.
27:57
What is the best business advice anyone has ever given you?
28:01
Okay.
28:02
Well, that one is an easy one.
28:03
I can answer that in, no time at all.
28:07
So in about 2000 and, 5, when I was thinking about starting my own business, I it was either
28:16
I was gonna start a business or I was gonna put the money that I had into a property.
28:21
So I was gonna buy, you know, investment property or is gonna start a business.
28:26
And a friend of mine, sat me down over a couple of drinks, and he had built up a substantial
28:32
property portfolio.
28:33
I think at that point, you know, about 10 or 12 properties, he's got a lot more now.
28:37
And he gave me very counterintuitive advice So I was leaning towards buying the property, and
28:44
he said, don't do that.
28:45
I said, why not?
28:46
And he goes, you'll you'll always be limited by what you can achieve, the rate of growth you
28:51
can achieve through through property.
28:53
You're gonna be limited by what the banks will lend you, by the rental yield, and so on.
28:57
He said you're going to get much, much stronger, higher, faster, longer growth by
29:04
starting your own business and growing that like crazy.
29:06
And that was the best piece of advice I've ever received because I took that to heart.
29:11
And I thought, well, if this person here that is a bit of a property guru has built up a
29:15
little little, you know, mini empire of of investment properties, if he's telling me, not
29:19
to go that way, but to actually start my own business, I I need to listen to that.
29:23
And so I did.
29:24
And, you know, now I've got, you know, several businesses and you know, a bunch of stuff and a
29:29
lot of really good content.
29:30
It was the best of us that I've ever received.
29:32
I love it.
29:33
I love it.
29:33
Thank you so much, Darren Moffett, the founder and chief nerd of nerds of business and the
29:39
nerds of business podcast.
29:40
If you guys want more information about him, head over to nerds of business.com.
29:47
And I wanna leave you all with this.
29:49
You know, I'm Melinda Emerson, the small business lady.
29:51
And I will tell you that you never lose any business, either you win or you learn.
29:57
God bless everybody.
30:00
Thanks for listening to the Small Biz chat podcast with Melinda Emerson.
30:05
Subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to podcast, and join us next Wednesday for more
30:10
fantastic information and interviews.
30:13
You can find more sources and small business success strategies by visiting Melinda's
30:18
website succeed as your own boss dot com.
30:21
Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next week.