Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / 09 | Living with the Silence of Navigating the Loss of Friendships
Transcript
- Cassandra: Hello friends, I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana: and I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra: As licensed mental health counselors, we're unpacking the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Daiana: Welcome to the Living Loss podcast. We're so glad you're joining our conversation as we name these losses and create meaningful path forward together. Please subscribe and share this episode. helps us grow this community and reach others who need to know that their grief is valid. Let's dive in. Cassandra: So we talk about quiet losses on this show. And today, we're going to look at the loss of connections that we experience throughout our lives. There are a multitude of ways that this can occur, but today we're going to focus on the friendships that we have gained and lost or drifted apart from over time. Sometimes relationships just run their course, and it's not a reflection of your worth. Daiana: Friendship loss is a quiet earthquake. the kind of heartbreak that often goes unacknowledged by the world, leaving you to navigate the silence alone. This experience perfectly captures ambiguous loss and disenfranchised grief. Cassandra: Now I bet you're wondering how does it fall under ambiguous loss? So there's a lot of different ways. We've talked about all sorts of different ways ambiguous loss affects us every single day. In this specific capacity, what happens is the person is psychologically or socially absent, but is still very much alive. So they still exist in the world. They're not deceased. They're not... Daiana: Hahaha Cassandra: maybe they just unfollowed you over social media, but your brain doesn't get a clean closure. It doesn't have a true ending. No matter how much you might want that closure, it just might not exist. And that can be a really, really difficult thing to process. Daiana: It's very difficult for our brains to do that. We need closure as far as closing the loop. That's why our brains continues to sing the same song, those earworms, right? The earworms, because it wants to finish the song. It wants to complete it. Our brains feel really uncomfortable. And that's why we end up adding in things that may not be real. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Daiana: we fill in those missing pieces. It's completely natural to want closure. Cassandra: When you say fill in those missing pieces, do you mean something like, I come up with all the reasons why it failed? Yeah. I'm great at that. It's almost a hobby sometimes. Like, I can come up with like every single reason under the sun why something didn't work out the way I thought that it should. And it's exhausting. Daiana: Exactly. Yeah. It is. And I find that if you pay attention to how those... thoughts feel in the sense of is it making me feel worse or is it ⁓ helping feel better about it? Is it giving me hope? Is it soothing the ache in my heart? If you're saying things like I'm such a bad person, I can't make friends, ⁓ you're to continue to feel bad about yourself, about the situation. But if you say, hey, ⁓ perhaps had nothing to do with me. Maybe this person is going through something and I just don't know. When you detach from it and not make it about yourself, you can see how that feels as well. Cassandra: Absolutely. Daiana: Friendship breakups often live in disenfranchised grief. There is no ritual. There's no public acknowledgement. Yet the ache is still real. ⁓ It just hurts your heart. Cassandra: It does, because you've spent all this time building this connection with somebody. And we've said before, people often acknowledge funerals, they'll often acknowledge breakups, they'll often acknowledge... Romantic relationships coming to an end, but how often do you hear someone being like, yeah, I broke up with my friend I was telling you earlier at one point I had to break up with the doctor of mine and that was Ridiculous, they took it so personally and to me it wasn't personal It was just it was time for the relationship to be over But for them it was almost an attack and it wasn't meant to be that way It was a really fascinating sort of experience for me Daiana: Yeah, that's interesting, especially with a professional. When as therapists, sometimes when a client is ready to go, they may struggle with saying goodbye. We struggle with saying goodbye. We're going to miss, our client and it is also okay to grieve that as well. ⁓ But trained differently. Maybe some doctors just... Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Daiana: they don't, they just don't know. Cassandra: Well, we're trying that, there comes a point where the relationship ends ⁓ and ⁓ lasts forever. ⁓ Yet have this idea, this narrative, which we'll talk about a little bit later on about how things are going to go and how they should be. ⁓ And interesting that you bring up about the relationship with clients because we do spend so much time building that connection, building that rapport, building a safe space with them. ⁓ that quite honestly, what happens more often than not, at least for me, is I get ghosted. Like, they don't want the goodbye. So if they know it's their last session or they know that we're coming, we've gone from weekly to bi-weekly to monthly, ⁓ they know ⁓ the next step is coming, ⁓ just don't hear from them again. And that's okay. I understand that that's the way that they need to process that. But at the same point in time, ⁓ look at it from Daiana: Ha ha! Yeah. Cassandra: a healing sort of side, a healing perspective. It's not always necessarily the healthiest way to do that. Like you said, you just kind of need closure, but if that's the closure that they need, then that's okay too. Daiana: Yeah, I guess we all handle it differently. I like a closing session and I like to celebrate it like a graduation. but sometimes saying goodbye is hard. remember my grandpa, when I would visit him in Dominican Republic, he would disappear. Like would take us to the airport and then I'll turn around and don't know where he is because saying goodbye was too hard for him. I know, it's cutie Cassandra: ⁓ Well, sometimes that separation or the saying goodbye can even cause grief brain, which is something we've talked about in the past. It could look like a cognitive fog where like you're not quite sure what's going on. Rumination where you keep holding on to the same thing over and over and over. Difficulty concentrating on things, which, ⁓ it's just kind of how my brain works anyway. So when it's in grief ⁓ brain it gets a little bit. wonkier up there, if you can imagine that. Or even memory hiccups, like, I know something happened, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Your mind might even try to keep replaying these old conversations, like a scratched record, just over and over and over, hoping that you can make some sense out of it. Daiana: that rumination and it's important to look at what we're ruminating about. Like what are, what do we keep repeating? Sometimes we repeat what we wish we would have said. Sometimes we're repeating like what heard. What did they say? What did that mean? Why they say that? ⁓ Ghosting. ⁓ Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I like to do that at like three o'clock in the morning. That's my favorite time to come up with the whys is at three o'clock in the morning where I can lie awake and just think about it non-stop until my alarm goes off. Daiana: ⁓ that's exciting and fun. That sucks. ⁓ That's one thing about me. I love sleep. My kids ⁓ being sick is what would keep me awake. But that's really tough. But that's what rumination does. It's what we were talking about closing that loop. We have to make sense of it. Cassandra: But it's... Yeah. You got me on that one. Mm-hmm. That's why they call it a rumination loop. It's the circular thinking that goes around and around and around. And it's often tied to unresolved attachment needs, the needs that we have that we rely on others for. Daiana: ⁓ that's such a good point. That is such a good point. There is this rupture in trust and safety. And that is the emotional bond, right? That's the attachment bond, which is emotional. Yeah. Especially if it's been a long-term relationship, friendship, if you've been vulnerable with this person, if this person is leaving with your secrets. Cassandra: Yeah. Daiana: You're leaving with a piece of you. Cassandra: I didn't even think about it like that. If they're leaving with your secrets, they're leaving with a piece of you because that's exactly what it comes down to. Especially in close friendships, there's no friendship without that give and take. So you share with them, they share with you, you give a little bit of your heart, you get a little bit of theirs. And if that doesn't exist, then it's very one-sided and doesn't last long anyway. But if there's that even give and take... Daiana: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: then you're making yourself vulnerable. And when you make yourself vulnerable, things get harder and scarier when they come to an end. Daiana: It takes so much courage and it takes that person feeling safe for you to be vulnerable and open and it is a beautiful thing even if the relationship ended that while it was happening that you did feel safe with this person and that you were able to share. It's it's always gonna suck that they're not in your life anymore and Those things could be, they are individual and maybe it's a good thing. Cassandra: And that's that attachment injury. Because it makes it harder for you moving forward to trust the next person that comes along. I know that I've had history with different individuals in my life. And this goes back years and years and years where... Something happened and our friendship ended, but the next person that came along that was like, hey, let's be friends, I kept arms length. I kept it a distance because it doesn't feel safe anymore. Daiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I really think that that's a universal experience ⁓ can think of a couple of times ⁓ my life ⁓ ⁓ transitions of high school to college, college to ⁓ the world ⁓ because your dynamic changes. ⁓ Cassandra: Yeah. And sometimes the loss can be that change of dynamic, right? There are friends that I've had that I still have that things have just changed between us to a point where we aren't necessarily the way that we used to be. And I had to grieve that loss. And it doesn't mean that it's over. It's just I had to grieve that loss and accept the new reality of what our relationship was and what it was going to become. Daiana: Yeah, absolutely. And when I think about attachment as well, there are some friendships that allow for different pieces of you to shine. And you start associating that part of you with that person as if you can't be that without them. Cassandra: then what happens when that goes? Daiana: Can I still be that person? Cassandra: the idea of identity disruption, ⁓ where really friendships can shape your identity, but losing one can destabilize, stabilize, stabilize. I like how I say that word, regardless. ⁓ Your sense yourself, ⁓ it can up a lot of really hard questions about who am I without my friend? ⁓ Who am because I lost my friend? ⁓ and the really hard ones that hit deep at three o'clock in the morning are what does this say about my character and how I interact with others because we can make it about us really really easily when it sometimes has nothing to do with who we are but more what they need. Daiana: Yeah, I want to repeat those questions again, because this is, I believe that this is a healthy way, even not at three o'clock in the morning. But if you do ask yourself, who am I without my friend? You may find that you are still you. That you still take those memories with you, that you take the lessons with you. Who am I because I lost my friend? What does that say about my character and how I interact with others? Those are all introspective. Those are all questions that you can ask yourself to grow to get to know yourself better. Because the opposite of that is saying, this person. They are horrible. They are, you know, terrible people. And I'm thinking of all the colorful words in my head. Cassandra: Mm. I'm just thinking, don't they know what they've done to me? Daiana: Mmm, that part, yes. Cassandra: That's the part that if we're not careful, we can follow that rabbit hole and that spiral so deep. Don't they know what they've done to me? Don't they know how they're affecting me? Don't they know the things that I never told them? Don't they know what my expectation of our relationship was? Don't they know that their actions are causing me harm? Daiana: That's another great point. Mm-hmm. that part, yeah, don't they know that they're hurting me? And that's where you will get stuck and where you will never feel better if you stay in that rumination. I just wanted to make that distinction. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Well, no, because it's really, really important. It's the difference between, internal and external. that has that, am I going to deep dive in and see what I can do differently where I can either protect myself or allow myself to be a better version of who I am right now with this next relationship? Or am I going to hide myself away from the world and place blame on someone else's situation that I had no control over in the first place? Daiana: There is a narrative there, It's a story we tell ourselves. ⁓ within that story, there is the story that happened and there is the future story that you imagined together that you thought you were going to take vacations together or... not just travel, but just live life together. That you won't get the new chapters, that you won't have the daily exchanges, ⁓ jokes. ⁓ sad. ⁓ so sad. Cassandra: It is sad, especially when that narrative collapses and it comes down kind of like a house of cards. You have these ideas and these thoughts and the expectations, and this is a word that I discussed with someone else earlier today, you have this fantasy. It's what it is. The narrative is a fantasy. It's something that hasn't happened yet, but that I've built up inside my head that that's what it's going to be like. And then when that narrative or that fantasy collapses, everything feels unstable. Daiana: Yeah. Yeah, that is the assumptive world that we create. Like we were talking about rumination and those loops. We create it because that is our safety. Our inner world is our world. That is where we live. So to have to redo this map, have to pull things apart and make it a way that you may not have chosen to, it's really difficult. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. It can be, and I know that when we started doing this podcast, we decided not to talk about things that we hadn't completely healed from, but this is one of those things that comes up so regularly that there are situations in the past that have happened to me and that I've healed from. And there are situations that will happen again in the future with somebody else that I'm going to need to heal from again. Talking about this now and normalizing this now for myself and understanding that these are things that I go through and I grow through really can help me carry the burden in the future if and when it does happen again. There are very few relationships that I had when I was five that I still have today. Daiana: And this is why it is true grief, that it is real grief. When you lose a loved one to death, your narrative also collapses. The stories that you have created of the memories you were going to make or how much life they still could have lived, it is the same thing. And I always want to make that comparison because You may not believe that losing your friend is a big deal, that it's happened before. Like you may minimize it and feel weak and feel silly and dumb and because you're hurting so much over a friend that is still alive. Cassandra: But a loss is a loss, regardless of what it looks like. I've talked to lot of different people since we started doing this about the different sort of losses and grief that they would like to have discussed. And a lot of them have to do with life changes and people changes that they weren't expecting. And this is both a life change and a people change. Or life change and a person change. Whichever way. A people change. Daiana: I like people change. Cassandra: And it's not like changing a tire, it's changing the entire way you look at the world. Daiana: and how you look at yourself. Cassandra: percent. Because if we're lucky we get introspective and then we gain all this perspective and then we become a more enlightened version of ourself. If we can work through that ache and understand that there's a reason for it. Daiana: Right. you can get to that 2020 vision we are like, well, in hindsight, you can get to that hindsight and see what occurred, why this needed to happen or why you were better off or why that person's chapter in your life was done. And that's okay. Cassandra: It's that whole like reason, season, lifetime, which when you're grieving, when you're losing someone, it sounds like complete BS. You don't want to hear that. You don't want to think about that. You don't want to look at that. Daiana: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: It's the whole, can't see the forest for the trees, I can't see the painting while I'm in it, it's that whole idea, and you don't recognize exactly what you have and what actually occurred until you can step away from it. And quite honestly, I've had friendships that I've lost that I was absolutely devastated by. And then five years later, I was like, ⁓ thank God, like, I can't even tell you where it would be if I had stayed in that mess. Daiana: Mm-hmm. It's the attachment part, right? It's that attachment part that sometimes is unhealthy, sometimes is anxious attachment, sometimes it's insecurity. And we won't know until we are apart from it. Cassandra: I think it. I think insecurity has played a large part of it for me because it's hard to look at the whys and the what-ifs and all of the things. It's easier to come up with a narrative of my own about why something happened. But sometimes I don't want to stop and look at what my part in something is because it hurts. ⁓ Daiana: and you might have to do something about it. It's so annoying. It's like so much work. Cassandra: which is annoying. It is so much work to become like a more enlightened version of myself. And it's still an uphill battle. Daiana: evolved. ⁓ It is. It is. it's important to remember that the goal is not to forget the person, forget the relationship. it's to integrate it. It's to integrate that loss so that you know, so that it doesn't control your life. And that's another parallel to death grief. When you lose someone you love, you want to wear their earrings, you want to eat their favorite food, you want to go to their favorite places, you want to remember them. It may not be exactly the same for someone who's living, but you can incorporate the lessons, the feelings, the experiences. You can cry it out when you have to. The point is that ignoring it and minimize it, it's not gonna get you to the other side. Cassandra: the reality is that the void that they leave is real. It's 100 % real. And, I used to say but, you've taught me to say and, and it gives you the opportunity to focus on a newer, healthier connection because our capacity for deep connections still exists. It's still in there and that hasn't changed. Daiana: I love that. does not. You know I was thinking about friendship from the beginning and think about when babies play they play parallel right when children are little they don't play together they play parallel they're next to each other that's enough they're happy to have someone next to them. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daiana: Once they get to pre-k, if you don't want to play with the sand with me, you're not my friend. Right? you're... You're not my friend anymore. You hear that a lot with little ones. You're not my friend anymore. Why? Because friendship is the ultimate. It is. If you're not my friend anymore, it's like the biggest slap in the face. Very close to your baby. Cassandra: And they can get mean about that. Mm-hmm. Well, my favorite is when I used to work with kids, I would get a variation of that like, you're not my friend. And that would be with like preschool all the way up through like third grade, they would still try to pull that card on me. You're not my friend. And... Mm-hmm. And to them, that means everything. Daiana: Mm-hmm. Yeah, because that's worst thing that can happen, right? And as we get older, middle school, think about me, ⁓ what a shit show. Middle school is with friendships. That's where you're trying to fit in to make friends. Then you get into adulthood, young adulthood, and people start to scatter all over the place for a career, for family. Maybe they go back to where they Cassandra: Mm-mm. No, thank you. Daiana: used to live and now friendship takes a whole nother level of effort to maintain these friendships. And I think that that's probably where you were talking about friendships changing is that you are growing. You're not the same person you were in sixth grade, that you were in high school, college and afterwards. You are changing and that's why it's okay to outgrow some people. Because if you're not growing in the same direction or have the same values anymore, then why stay friends? Just because, they're my friend from elementary school. Cassandra: What's interesting too is friendship and how you can connect as friends also changes. So I've noticed that for me personally in each stage of my life, I tend to collect like two people. Like two people that I'm incredibly close to. And then I move to the next stage of life and I meet two more people. And like I'll meet like a dozen people but like two will stick. Daiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra: It doesn't mean that I've forgotten about or replaced the ones before. If I see them, we pick right up where we left off and it's actually kind of magical. But it just means that I've learned enough from them that I can apply it to this new stage. I can apply it to this next area in my life so that I'm not alone. Daiana: Mm-hmm. That shows so much growth in you as a person. You were talking about when we're younger, we have all this insecurity. When you do become more secure and going back to attachment, when you do have secure attachment, then you can get the best of both worlds. Because that's what I hear you saying. Like, I can still have my friends that I made a few years ago and my new friends as well. Cassandra: So are you saying that my attachment is more secure than I assumed it was? Girl, I thought I was anxious as all get out, but nope. I'm gonna take your expertise on this one and just assume that I am secure. Daiana: Yeah, definitely. Well, what you just said shows that you are. It really does. It shows, and this is what we hope adult friendships look like. Like I can tell you, well, there was this one time I told you I couldn't go and you were like, but I was on your calendar. Cassandra: Well, thank you. That was more to stick it to somebody else. I'm just throwing that out there. Daiana: ⁓ tell me again later. yeah, when you are able to just reschedule because your kids are sick or because you, I don't know, whatever happened, you don't take it personal anymore. And that's the kind of friends I need in my life. need, I love alone maintenance friends. Cassandra: Hahaha Mm-mm. I call them low maintenance friends. I really love me a low maintenance friend. Daiana: I try to be my friends, Lomina's friends. Cassandra: You're doing a good job. Daiana: because I'm... ⁓ thank you. Cassandra: I was like, wait a minute, let me throw that in there real quick so that you know, you're doing a good job. Daiana: Thank you. Yeah, and I think that once you're raising kids and you're doing the career thing and you want quality friends that when you meet up with them, they're filling your soul. And we've said that a few times and we've seen each other in person. We get together and we're like, my heart just feels so full. And that's the type of friend that you need in your life. Cassandra: And I'm thinking of a couple of different people that I haven't seen in a while that I would still feel that way if they walked into my house today and they would still be welcome and they would still exist in my world. It's just not the same way that they used to. And that's okay too, because change happens. Daiana: That is okay. I thought you were going to say that you were thinking of friends like that to call or that you can connect with again, which could be something else, but it does take you to call. Sometimes it's not a, sometimes when we're immature, we say, well, they never call me. So I'm not going to call them. Well, do you love them? Do you care about them? Do you want them in your life? Give them a chance. Call them. Right? They might tell you, ⁓ my God, I've been thinking about you. I've been wanting to call you. Cassandra: And that's usually when I'll drop a message, right? I'm like, hey, what are you doing? And then because I do live with ADHD, I might think that I respond and then pick my phone up six months later and be like, I didn't do that thing. So it's never personal. My brain just brains on its own. But you are 100 % correct. There are people I could call. There are people I could reach out to. I don't ever feel any malice, though, when... Daiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cassandra: It's a time before we do reconnect. I just... I don't have time for that. ⁓ Daiana: Mm-hmm. No, we really don't. We have time for quality, solid relationships. You know what I was thinking about as well is romanticizing things, because I love me a good rom-com and coming of age stories. And there isn't one coming of age story without friendships. Cassandra: you That's true, and I refuse to watch most of them more than once because most of them also make me cry. There's a ton that I've watched through one time and I won't ever watch again. Even something simple like Forrest Gump, which isn't simple at all, but I watched it through all the way one time. I cried a whole bunch and I have no interest in watching it again. It was amazing. Daiana: Mm-hmm. Hmm, I could watch Forrest Gump ⁓ and feel nostalgia and a lot of different feelings. I know what you mean about those movies you can't see again or the movies that I will always cry. Like My Girl, doesn't matter how many times I've watched it, I will cry every single time as if I don't know what's gonna happen to Thomas Jay. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. We don't need to talk about that. I'm just throwing that out there. No, that is an ugly cry right there. Daiana: Mm. Yeah, there's one that I want you to see that I think you told me you haven't seen. It's called Now and Then, and it's about a group of girls. Did you see it? Cassandra: I seen, I remember watching parts of it. I don't remember what happened. I remember them being together when they were kids and then being together when they were adults and they got back together. I just don't remember the in-between. Daiana: Okay. Oh yeah, there's so much there. I really, really love that movie. I love movies like that that show you the past and the present. There are many. Cassandra: Girl, the one, I'm just thinking about like the Sandlot, that one also gutted me because it was so good and they had all this time together and there were all these things and then it actually shows like each one like disappearing off the field and like growing up and what, ⁓ no, mm-mm. Already making me want to tear up. Daiana: That's a good one. Yeah, well, I hope this makes you happy the actors some of them I saw are friends in real life and there was a trend going around that you call Someone like a buddy and just say hey, I just called to say good night and I love you And one of them did that and he called a bunch of his Sandlot ⁓ Co-starrers I'll find it and I'll send it to you because maybe knowing that they are still friends in real life Cassandra: That's actually really funny. Daiana: May- feel like you feel better. Cassandra: You would think so, right? That would make sense. I have a person in my life that likes to remind me that, you know that's not real, right? Like when I get all upset about a movie or something, they're like, you know, it's all pretend, right? And ⁓ it cracks me up every time that happens because they're right. But I get so emotionally invested in these friendships, just like I do in real life, that when something comes to an end, I feel the grief of it. Daiana: I think in another episode, I even mentioned it here that I changed once I had kids and that I became more emotional. throughout this conversation, I'm thinking how I used to say things like that. I would say, this is just a movie. But I think I said this is just a movie to not feel, to not experience the feelings. And then once I had kids, I was like, I don't got the strength for this. I'm just going to cry. You know, I'm just going to feel. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Mm-mm. You know what changed when I had kids? I stopped watching Law and Order SVU. I couldn't do it anymore. Yup. I was like, aw, I miss you, Stabler, but I can't do it anymore. I had to break up with Stabler. He was devastated, by the way. Daiana: ⁓ God, yeah, the world is scary enough. I would love to hear from our listeners if there are any, coming of age or friendship stories or movies that stayed with you. That whether you won't watch it again or it was part of ⁓ your story, like the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants or something like that. Cassandra: Or even like an experience that you had that was similar to like the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. Like a group of you that grew up together and either stayed in connection or everyone went their own way. I have a group of friends that I'm thinking about right now that I grew up with and when we cross paths, things are cool. But we don't really go out of our way to do that too often. Daiana: Mm-hmm. There's always this one friend too that is like the glue of the circle, of the friendship circle. But yeah, please, I would love to hear your friendship stories, whether it's a friendship ⁓ that has stood this test of time and you've grown together, you've grown apart, ⁓ all of it. I would love to hear it. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Daiana: And as we wrap up today's conversation, we're moving on to our favorite part of the show. ⁓ The Living Lost Lessons. This is where we bridge everything we've talked about with tangible takeaways you can use right now. Cassandra: Now remember, these lessons aren't about fixing the pain, but about finding a way to carry it. Sometimes it's a tool to practice, and other times it's reflecting on meaning you've built from a loss that you've never asked for. It's the strength that you've gained, even in the midst of all the hard stuff. So Daiana what would your living loss lesson for today be? ⁓ Daiana: So many, but if I have to bring it down to a couple, would say. very important that you know that you can tolerate an unfinished story. That when it comes to this type of grief, disenfranchised grief or ambiguous grief, the loss of a friend that's still living, that it is likely this is what happens is that you may not get closure and that you will be okay, that you don't actually need that other person to have closure, you can have unanswered questions because they most likely will just be unanswered and ⁓ experience can give you ⁓ flexibility. It can show you that you can tolerate the distress and that you're going to be okay. Cassandra: I like that. I like that a lot. Thank you for sharing that. I had a few myself if you're interested. Daiana: Yes, I am. Cassandra: So something that comes to mind for me is that my feelings about this, my feelings about grief, about loss, about friendship, about having them or losing them, doesn't need public permission. Sometimes when no one else is willing or able to name my loss for me, I learn to validate it for myself. I can become almost like a witness to my own experience and that builds self-trust emotionally and physically and mentally and all of the things. It helps me to learn how to trust myself because by going through all of this, I know what safety feels like and what it doesn't. That it's almost like a rupture. Daiana: Hmm. Cassandra: ⁓ clarifies standards for me. I can refine just what emotional reliability means to me and what I'll tolerate and what I won't. And I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for the opportunities to learn that. And sometimes it happens immediately, sometimes it takes years. But when it comes down to it, I learn how to trust myself again. Daiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, it does. Cassandra: ⁓ Daiana: And that's how you know you did develop secure attachment because you cannot have secure attachment without that, without knowing what safety feels like without that self-trust. Cassandra: Well, you're my favorite person now, so... Good job. Daiana: You rediscovered yourself through the losses and came back to yourself to trust yourself. That's everything. That's everything. Same. Well, thank you to every single listener that has been supporting us throughout this journey. I think this is going to be episode nine. So that's pretty cool. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. I like that. Yeah, what's it all about? Daiana: I know, I love it. ⁓ So thank you listeners for being a part of our circle today and remember by sharing this episode, ⁓ you're us reach someone else who is carrying their loss in silence. Let's keep growing this community together. Subscribe, follow, share, ⁓ and that your story matters. ⁓ Cassandra: And just as a reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we are not your therapists, and this does not replace professional mental health care. If you feel like to to someone, ⁓ please reach to a professional near you. And thank you all for being here today. ⁓ Bye. ⁓ Daiana: See you next time.